The Dior Dilemma

[Lalaith]

Ok, we've all been talking about the half-elven problem. People have said that Dior wasn't an issue because he died before he had to make the choice.
But where did he go when died? Did he go to the Halls of Mandos or did he suffer the unknown fate of men?
I'd always assumed he'd been counted as an elf, he was married to one, ruled over them and so on.
But maybe some of our half-elven experts have other ideas.
Oh, and what about the sons of Dior who were left to die in the wilderness? Would they have gone to Mandos too? Poor little things... smilies/frown.gif

[Findegil]

Dior was was a Man, and his mother already sheared the Doom of Man when he was recieved and born. So I assume he was a Man and sheared the Doom of Man.

His children were Half-Elven. Elwing had the choice granted by Manwe. Her brethern died eraly in childhood. And were never again mentioned. So we do not know what happend to thier fear.

Since at the ende of the Frist Age Manwe decleared that hence forward any child that had a share of human blood how ever small should recive the gift of man, if not granted other wiese, I think that Elured and Elurin where counted among mankind.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arwen_Evenstar]

I havent read the Sil. for a while, but i was wondering, dont ALL beings, men and elves go to the halls of Mandos? Or just elves?

[lindil]

According to the Silm - Men go there briefly, before in some manner unknown to Elves, pass to some place of Eru's choosing beyond the confines of the Circles of the World.

Whether obscure aspects of HoME offer a different view I do not off-hand recall.

The Athrabeth (HoM-E X) would be a likely place to look, as would the MT chapters at the end of the Book.

[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Ailios]

Is really Dior 100% man? In that case the marriage Dior-Nimloth (or Lindis) would be the fourth union between elves and men. Where is it mentioned that he is a man? Arwen parents were elves and she became mortal.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

The way to label Dior, Elured, Elurin, Elwing and Earendil, as well as Elrond and Elros is as Peredhil. They were half-elven, and in a sense, perhaps, half-elven humans, and pending some pronouncement of fate by Manwe to the contrary, they were bound by the fate of mortality within the World.

Presumably, they were immune to sickness and common decay, and would be exceptionally long-lived and vigorous to the end. Dior might have lived a thousand years, conceivably, seeing as Elros lasted 500. But the presence of mortal blood (in the non-genetic sense) would mean that their spirits were not bound to this World and could not sustain the corpus indefinitely from the ravages of Time, hence age and death, and the departure of that spirit from the Circles of the World, after a period of waiting in the Halls of Mandos.

For the first three listed above, the question of a choice from Manwe never happened, and sadly, there was no such chance. Even Dior had a short life by the measure of Men. So, we can really never know. So, Dior & Nimloth was thus a pairing of Peredhil and Elf.

For the others, who had a choice, they still remained Peredhil, and could choose, and in three cases, chose to have the life and fate of the Firstborn.

Arguably, Arwen and Aragorn was technically not a pairing of Elf and Man. Aragorn's non-human ancestry was so remote as to be meaningless, but Arwen (and her brothers) were still half-elven. But for all intents and purposes she was a Elf when they married. Her human ancestry was only 3/16, and she had lived nearly three thousand years, already, as a Quendi.

[Legolas]

But for all intents and purposes she was a Elf when they married.

Arwen was not an elf any you look at it. She was a half-elf who had not yet abandoned her Elvish rights.

Is really Dior 100% man?

No. 1/4 Sinda, 1/4 Ainu, 1/2 Man.

Arwen parents were elves and she became mortal.

No, they weren't. Celebrian was an elf; Elrond was a half-elf.

Dior was mortal, though. Before the family of Earendil/Elwing, all beings with any amount of mortal blood were mortal. This also remained true for any beings afterwards (aside from Earendil/Elwing's descendants).

[ April 10, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Salocin]

The sons (and daughter) of Elrond were given the same choice Elrond and Elros were given. His sons chose to be elves and went with their father, but Arwen chose to be mortal and stayed with Aragorn.

[The Saucepan Man]

His sons chose to be elves and went with their father

That's a pretty controversial thing to say around here, isn't it?

[Morwen Tindomerel]

smilies/wink.gif Very!

We know that the twins did not accompany their father oversea at the end of the Third Age but continued to live in Rivendell for many years thereafter, joined eventually by their grandfather Celeborn.

There is some controversy over their final choice, they may have eventually followed their father into the West but I personally am inclined to believe they chose to be accounted as Men and died in Middle Earth. The question is however quite open as Tolkien never actually says what their choice was.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I agree with Morwen T about the twins. (I think BD-"Legolas" needs a surname like Morwen T to avoid confusion with references to Legolas, the character).

A few posts above, Lindil quotes me out of context. Shame. I had just said that technically Arwen was a Peredhil and not an Elf per se. But with the qualification of "for all intents and purposes" is to say that she was indeed like an Elf at the point of her marriage, which one must accept in order to make sense of JRRT's listing of Aragorn and Arwen as one of the three pairings of Man and Eldar.

[Elmo]

Do you really think Tolkien, a devoted family man, would have Nimloth forever separated from her baby children in the after life forever?

[Lalaith]

Ah, thanks for digging up this old thing, hewhoarisesinmight...(what do they call you for short, btw?)
Now you've got me worritting about those poor babies again.

I found this on Wikipedia...Tradition among the Nandor of Ossiriand held that they were led to the safety of the woodlands by birds and beasts, and survived.
Never heard that before. Can anyone elucidate?

[Elmo]

what do they call you for short, btw?That idiot mostly :D no I think I once was called He Who either that or hwain's fine

[The Might]

Well, I've looked through the thread and noticed nobody gave any quotes on this so I will:

"Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. "
(Letter #153)
' Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Peredil
(Half-elven), but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.' (HOME XII)
"Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor
dwelt in Gondolin; and children then had Dior the Elf," (The Book of the Lost Tales II)
'Dior the Elf' is an emendation from 'Dior then an aged Elf'. (The Book of the Lost Tales II)
Well, as seen above in the first writings on this topic Tolkien considered him an Elf clearly.
In later writings this becomes unclear. The quote from Letter #153 shows that Dior was given this choice. The question remaining is which choice did he make.

Considering what we know about him, I personally see him as an Elf. We know he was named "Thingol's Heir", and he was King of Doriath. I doubt the Elves would have accepted a Man as their ruler, even if he was the rightful heir to the throne. Also, there is one other example of a Half-Elf that rules over Elves - Elrond - and it is well known which choice he made.

[Raynor]

Also, there is one other example of a Half-Elf that rules over Elves - Elrond - and it is well known which choice he made.Well, "technically", he was a full elf after he and Elros made their choices. After that, he was a half-elven by title only.

[Findegil]

The quote from the Letters is telling. That means Tolkien thought of Dior as an Half-Elf.

The quotes from the Lost Tales do not really count for anything here, since at that time Beren Dior's father was an Elf himself, so there was no question of Dior being anything else then an Elf.

The choices for the Half-Elves were granted to them by the Manwë after a long discussion of the council of the Valar after the journey of Eärendil to Valinor. At this time Dior had been killed already. I imaging that he was held in waiting in the Halls of Mandos for that time and that he was granted the choice after that decision by Manwë: Either he could stay in Mandos until the time Namo jugde him fit for a return to incarnated live or he could leave the world for ever. But how can anybody in Middel-Earth be expected to know what choise he made?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elmo]

If that is true Dior would have gone with his wife...
What choice could the children have had, would they have automatically gone with their parents? I certainly hope so.

[Formendacil]

Well, "technically", he was a full elf after he and Elros made their choices. After that, he was a half-elven by title only.

I would quibble about that... his NATURE, his mortality/immortality, being bound to the world or destined to escape it was then fully Elven, but to call Elrond fully Elven otherwise seems... wrong. His physical human inheritance (Tuor's shoulders maybe, or Beren's eyebrows, or Bëor's toenails, or Rían's elbows... or whatever), would not have been erased by his choice. It was only the completely irreconcilable natures of Man and Elf that required a choice. In other matters, such as temperament and looks, there is no reason to suggest that would have become half-Elven by title only. Elrond favoured his Elven side, but that did not nullify that he was Man as well.

Just to quibble.

[Raynor]

Just to quibble.Count me in :D
His physical human inheritance (Tuor's shoulders maybe, or Beren's eyebrows, or Bëor's toenails, or Rían's elbows... or whatever), would not have been erased by his choice.But this would presume that a half-elven would receive any traits of his human parent. So far, I don't think it is warranted. I would also hold that no single feature is strictly human or elven; the only exceptions would be the ears (not a certain issue) and the unspecific beauty of the firstborn (not a monopoly of them either).

Furthermore, even if his body would maintain some Mannish features from the parent, it would definitely undergo a radical transformation, seeing that the bodies of elves have to endure life until the end of the world (if we don't count Melkor's marring).

In conclusion, I don't think he would have something that would set him aside from other elves visibly, while biologically he would be like them as much as any other elf.

[The Might]

Good point made Findegil, I had forgotten this.
Still, his deeds in life seem to hint he was favorising his Elf side over his Man side, and that's what leads me to think he chose to be an Elf.

[Formendacil]

But this would presume that a half-elven would receive any traits of his human parent. So far, I don't think it is warranted. I would also hold that no single feature is strictly human or elven; the only exceptions would be the ears (not a certain issue) and the unspecific beauty of the firstborn (not a monopoly of them either).

If he can inherit from his Elven parent, why couldn't he inherit from his human one?

What if all of Dior's dominant genes, physically, came from Beren? Tolkien says that Elves and Men were capable of producing offspring in the normal way, which assumes two sets of genes and the subsequent physical products from the two parents.

I would agree that there may not have been any body parts exclusive to one race or the other, as I don't hold with the ears-different theory.

Furthermore, even if his body would maintain some Mannish features from the parent, it would definitely undergo a radical transformation, seeing that the bodies of elves have to endure life until the end of the world (if we don't count Melkor's marring).

Need it undergo any transformation at all? The Númenoreans were pretty longeval, and under the original schema they didn't die of old age, but of surrendering their lives. Granted, there was aging going on, but if one further takes the Athrabeth into account, one could make a case that the inherent Mannish form was as immortal as the Elven one.

In conclusion, I don't think he would have something that would set him aside from other elves visibly, while biologically he would be like them as much as any other elf.

Biologically, any human was like any elf-- thus they could copulate producing fertile offspring. The ONLY difference between the races that we are definitively given is lifespan.

[Raynor]

I would agree that there may not have been any body parts exclusive to one race or the other, as I don't hold with the ears-different theory.Then I would say that nothing of their Mannish ancestry, if any, would set them apart.
Need it undergo any transformation at all? The Númenoreans were pretty longeval, and under the original schema they didn't die of old age, but of surrendering their lives. Granted, there was aging going on, but if one further takes the Athrabeth into account, one could make a case that the inherent Mannish form was as immortal as the Elven one.However, in contrast to Andreth's words, Tolkien notes in the letters that if Men are "immortal" too, then they are pretty much elves, so there would be no point in having both of them. Also, Myths Transformed speculates that even given the perfect conditions of Aman, a Man would perish soon (as compared with those with true "immortality"). It may also be that this idea of Men being initially "immortal" was instilled as part of Melkor's plan to corrupt their view on life and death.

[Formendacil]

Fair points, I suppose...

But I would still quibble that Elrond et al were not merely "Half-Elves by title only", but, simply, Half-Elves. We could just as easily call him Half-Man, though that is not the convention. I'm willing to accept that the Half-Elven-who-chooses-Elvenkind is in all respects a full, regular, Elf, but that is biologically. In terms of culture and self-perception, the Mannish influence cannot but affect the mind. Obviously, it affected Elrond less than Elros, since he chose his Elven heritage-- but there is ample evidence shown in his fondness for his Arnorian cousins in the Third Age that Elrond remembered and honoured his kinship with Men, and consequently his descent from them.

[Raynor]

I'm willing to accept that the Half-Elven-who-chooses-Elvenkind is in all respects a full, regular, Elf, but that is biologically.There are two main areas that are not taken into account by this idea, and which significantly separate Men from Elves. One is the high level of abilities specific to the elves; Elrond is the greatest loremaster of Middle Earth, perhaps the most skilled healer, a powerful magician, he can foresee into the future in some matters, and I believe he can recall from his childhood the world of the First Age. The other is the special communion elves had with their body
They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast. I, for one, have little reason to believe that Elrond didn't excel in this area too. We could argue about the value of Elrond having been a Man (if he ever actually was). However, none of this would diminish Elrond's "elvishness" - at most complete it and enrich it. He remains a foremost exponent of his race.

[Legolas]

Dior was mortal.

All Peredhil would've been mortal until Earendil and Elwing. Manwe made a proclamation:
Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them.

Dior was never granted other doom, therefore he was mortal.

The quote from Letter #153 shows that Dior was given this choice. The question remaining is which choice did he make.
The quote describes the choice given to Earendil, Elwing, and their sons. Not Dior. The choice was only granted to them after Earendil and Elwing had acted so admirably in the final days of the First Age.

But I would still quibble that Elrond et al were not merely "Half-Elves by title only", but, simply, Half-Elves.
Well, "technically", he was a full elf after he and Elros made their choices. After that, he was a half-elven by title only.
Formendacil is correct. What is "a full elf"? Elrond can never be anything other than what he is. Tolkien never refers to him (or any of the immortal half-elven) as an elf - simply stating that "Elrond chose to be among the Elves" (Letter 153). His blood or genetic makeup doesn't change; he was just "granted the same grace" (Appendix A, ROTK). There is no reason to now call him an elf just because he shares their fate.

Likewise, Tuor does not 'become an elf.' He is still a Man; he is simply granted the same grace.

[Raynor]

His blood or genetic makeup doesn't change; he was just "granted the same grace" (Appendix A, ROTK).Your quote is misleading. It reffers to the ability to pass over to the west, not to his immortality.
Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world.What is "a full elf"?
...
There is no reason to now call him an elf just because he shares their fate.It wasn't just sharing their fate, but also their other abilities, which I mentioned previously. Anyway, do I understand correctly that you consider Men, Half-Elven and Elves to have the same "blood or genetic makeup"? If so, what would make a Half-Elven less of an elf, than a "naturally" born Elf?

[Rhod the Red]

"There is no reason to now call him an elf just because he shares their fate"

He lived the life of one, therefore accepted in his community as a full Elf.

[Formendacil]

See, here's what I'm trying to get at...

I do not deny any aspect of Elrond's Elvishness. I would agree that, in pretty much all respects, he is an Elf's Elf. He seems more Elven than Galadriel, Fëanor, and Finrod at times. Possibly, however, this is because as a Half-elf, he has, consciously or unconsciously, molded himself to be as Elven as possible, moreso than a full-blooded Elf, who would just BE an Elf, and not worry about being LIKE one.

I also have a mindset wherein the phrase "blood is thicker than water" holds some validity. Deny it or embrace it, your family history, where you come from, affects who and what you are.

A really good analogy is Spock, off of the original Star Trek-- the Vulcan of Vulcans, who nonetheless is half-human and cannot be anything but half-human. It's not an exact analogy, but it gets at where I'm coming from.

Or, look at it from the point of view of citizenship. Elrond can be said to be a citizen of both (using random countries for demonstrative effect) Uzbekistan and Uganda. Then the United Nations (ie. Valar) comes along and says that you can only be a citizen of one country. Elrond, born in Uganda, would be by default a Ugandian. However, the United Nations are not without their Niënna, and so all the dual citizens are given a choice of which nation they wanted to belong to. Elrond, raised Uzbeks and preferring that side of the family tree, chooses to be an Uzbek citizen.

Does this mean that Elrond is no longer a Ugandian at all? He may not be OFFICIALLY a Ugandian, but he still has Ugandian heritage, and he still has Ugandian family ties, and his genetic heritage is still part Ugandian (and as an aside, I would say that if Ugandians and Uzbeks can both be biologically human and reproduce, and yet have different typical characteristics it stands to reason that humans and Elves might have similar, though different, differences).

[Legolas]

Well said, Formendacil.

Your quote is misleading. It reffers to the ability to pass over to the west, not to his immortality.
It wasn't just sharing their fate, but also their other abilities, which I mentioned previously.
I think his fate is implied. The fact that he shares their abilities remains unchanged by his fate. He would share their abilities in any event. Imagine that he never receives the choice. He eventually dies as he is mortal, given Manwe's judgement. His nature is due to his ancestry and environment, not his fate.
He lived the life of one, therefore accepted in his community as a full Elf.
He is not accepted as "a full Elf" and has no need to be. He is accepted as himself, Elrond Peredhil. Half-elven, and of the lineage of Finwë, Thingol, and Melian. Socially accepted among the Elven, and they are all aware of his family more than anyone. They know the story backwards and forwards. Why does he need to become anything other than Half-elven?

Likewise, Gimli "lived the life of one" on Tol Eressëa, but that does not change his fundamental kind. He is a dwarf, and accepted as a dwarf.
It wasn't just sharing their fate, but also their other abilities, which I mentioned previously. Anyway, do I understand correctly that you consider Men, Half-Elven and Elves to have the same "blood or genetic makeup"? If so, what would make a Half-Elven less of an elf, than a "naturally" born Elf?
They must be of the same genetic structure, but not the same genetic makeup. By genetic makeup, I mean the specific genes passed to him by his parents. Just as native Africans and native Europeans have the same genetic structure - they are H. sapiens with 46 chromosomes - but do not have identical genotypes.* The offspring of a native European and a native African will be less European than a "full" European, and less African than a "full" African - yet any one offspring has the chance at being much more phenotypically† one or the other.

Which actually brings me to a better description. Elrond's phenotypes are all, or at least more often, Elven where there is a difference between Men and Elves. However, that does not change his genotype. He is still Half-elven.

It may be even logical to presume that this is why he chose to be immortal - he was more Elven in manner, felt more connected to that aspect of his ancestry, etc.

* genotype - an organism's genome, or genetic makeup
† phenotype - the actual characteristics expressed as a result of genotype and environment

[Raynor]

I would agree that, in pretty much all respects, he is an Elf's Elf.Then, if I understand correctly, we are in agreement :).
Likewise, Tuor does not 'become an elf.' He is still a Man; he is simply granted the same grace.I doubt this is a correct interpretation:
But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.Why would he be numbered among the elder race if he wasn't an elf himself? How could he still be a Man if he doesn't share their fate anymore?
The fact that he shares their abilities remains unchanged by his fate.I am not aware that Elros displayed any ability I mentioned - nor that any Man shared them. This are specific Elvish traits, gifts of their race.
He would share their abilities in any event.Why? Is there any sign he had them before he made the choice?
Likewise, Gimli "lived the life of one" on Tol Eressëa, but that does not change his fundamental kind. He is a dwarf, and accepted as a dwarf.I would call this a false comparison. Gimli didn't make any choice (as Elrond did); he was a guest in the elves' home. He would die there, to the manner of his kin; Elrond would live to the end of the world, as elves do.
Which actually brings me to a better description. Elrond's phenotypes are all, or at least more often, Elven where there is a difference between Men and Elves. However, that does not change his genotype. He is still Half-elven.What sets apart Half-Elven from Elves from Men among them (in genotypes, or by whatever criteria you consider relevant)?

[Legolas]

I am not aware that Elros displayed any ability I mentioned - nor that any Man shared them. This are specific Elvish traits, gifts of their race.
How would you be? We're told very little about Elros. Any apparent difference would certainly be explainable - his genotype may be from the same parents, but his phentotype still may be different, just as brothers of any sort can be and usually are different. The influence of his ancestry does not disappear because he has chosen mortality. Being of elvish descent I would expect Elros to exhibit flashes of Elvishness. Why wouldn't he? It is precedent. His extra long life is the obvious example. There also seems to be traces of Elvish strength and 'wisdom' or 'cunning' in some of his descendents (evident in Aragorn). This also makes Aragorn's childhood in Rivendell understandable, or at least easier on Aragorn. Also, see below for the Imrahil-Legolas point.

Why? Is there any sign he had them before he made the choice?
We're given no reason to believe that they magically appear when he chooses to be immortal. To say that they did would be more speculative, and goes against what we see.

As dilute as Imrahil's Elvish strain was, Legolas still recognizes it instantly:
At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins. ‘Hail, lord!’ he said. ‘It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth’s haven west over water.’

Imrahil's only elven ancestor was twenty-three generations ago. Why then do you think Elros and Elrond would not show the "elven-blood in [their] veins"?

I would call this a false comparison. Gimli didn't make any choice (as Elrond did); he was a guest in the elves' home. He would die there, to the manner of his kin; Elrond would live to the end of the world, as elves do.
The point was directed solely at Rhod's comment - you do not have to become an elf to be accepted into elven society. The fact that Elrond is accepted has nothing to do with "being a full Elf."

What sets apart Half-Elven from Elves from Men among them (in genotypes, or by whatever criteria you consider relevant)?
The mixture of Elven and human traits? I'm not sure what else you're looking for.

[Raynor]

I have overlook the importance of your statement, since, frankly, our whole debate hinges on this:
Elrond's phenotypes are all, or at least more often, Elven where there is a difference between Men and Elves. However, that does not change his genotype. He is still Half-elven.In what instances does Elrond behave/is like a Man and not like an Elf (-if any, in fact)?

[Legolas]

Tuor did not become an elf. He was "numbered among the elder race" - dwelt with them, was part of their population in Aman, shared their fate, etc.

Likewise, "Elrond chose to be among the Elves" (L. 153). Not to be an Elf, but to be among them.

I said all because I had no immediate recollection of a human trait observed in him, but added or at least more often as a simple disclaimer because he appears so little in the books - more than Elros, for example, but still nowhere near the amount of exposure that one of the Fellowship had.

The entire question is proven with this. If Elrond became a "full elf" after he made his decision, then his children would not require a "renewed elvish strain from their mother" to be granted the choice. If Elrond was a "full elf," they would be simply elves as well, and immortal, no questions asked. But they are not. "His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices" (L. 153).

[Lalaith]

All Peredhil would've been mortal until Earendil and Elwing.

But hadn't the Peredhil all lived immortal lives even before this? Dior's dates are uncertain, according to the encyclopaedia of Arda, and he clearly was slain when young.
But Earendil and Elwing were both born around 500 FA. The voyage was around 573, was it not? They don't strike me as a couple of old dears - Elwing flying around in bird's shape and so on...so they clearly did not age like mortal men and women did.

And does no-one have the answer to my query about the twins and the Nandor? :confused:

[Legolas]

This gives no reason to expect that they were living immortal lives. I would expect that Dior, his children, and Earendil would've lived very long lives. Earendil and Elwing's mortal son Elros lived 500 years. I can't find any figures to give an idea of a Man's lifespan in the First Age - each date of death seems to be because the person was killed.

Still, later Elendil and Isildur lived in excess of 200 years and only died at their respective ages because they were slain. They do not appear to be withering of old age - Elendil is slain in combat with Sauron as he is leading an army of men while Isildur is murdered in the Disaster of Gladden Fields.

Aragorn lived 210 years, though that is very long for someone at that time. Even Theoden, with no immortal ancestors whatsoever, is still leading an army and fighting at age 71 when he is slain at Pelennor Fields. Éomer goes on to live to 93.

As for the twins and Nandor question, I'll look into it.

[Raynor]

Tuor did not become an elf. He was "numbered among the elder race" - dwelt with them, was part of their population in Aman, shared their fate,Then what does Tuor become? Does he still remain a mortal?

In letter #131, Tolkien states that the nature of Men "could not endure" immortality, and it is apparent that this quote is in refference to letter #156, where it is said:
The view is taken (as clearly reappears later in the case of the Hobbits that have the Ring for a while) that each 'Kind' has a natural span, integral to its biological and spiritual nature. This cannot really be increased qualitatively or quantitatively; so that prolongation in time is like stretching a wire out ever tauter, or 'spreading butter ever thinner' – it becomes an intolerable torment.In my interpretation of these, no Man can be immortal.

IIRC, Tolkien comments in the letters that the view of Man that they were or can, or should be immortals is a lie induced by Melkor. Concerning this subject, Tolkien notes in his comments on the Atrabeth that (emphasis added):
He remains, nonetheless, in the opinion that the condition of Men before the disaster (or as we might say, of unfallen Man) cannot have been the same as that of the Elves. That is, their 'immortality' cannot have been the longevity within Arda of the Elves; otherwise they would have been simply Elves, and their separate introduction later into the Drama by Eru would have no function. If I can rephrase that: if a Man is immortal, then he is simply an Elf.

[Formendacil]

Then what does Tuor become? Does he still remain a mortal?

What you are doing, Raynor, is defining a man as mortal and an elf as an immortal, and saying there is NO other difference.

What I am arguing--and what I think Legolas is arguing--that there are further differences, just as there are between different ethnic groups of humans.

[Lalaith]

But the Edain were granted their long lifespan three times that of ordinary men, by the Valar, when they left for Numenor. Elros got 500 years, but again, all the references I find have him getting that lifespan at the time he made his choice, not before. So Aragorn, as his descendant, was getting the grace of the Valar that had been granted at the end of the First Age.

[Formendacil]

But the Edain were granted their long lifespan three times that of ordinary men, by the Valar, when they left for Numenor. Elros got 500 years, but again, all the references I find have him getting that lifespan at the time he made his choice, not before. So Aragorn, as his descendant, was getting the grace of the Valar that had been granted at the end of the First Age.

There is an age difference, though, between the Line of Elros and the average Edainic Númenorean. In the case of Elros' descendents, until the shadow fell on Númenor, four hundred years was the standard lifespan, whereas the Normal Númenorean only lived 250-300 years. Even as the lifespan of the Elrosians dropped after they began to rebel against the Valar, they seem to have consistantly had longer lifespans than the average around them. Elendil lived past three hundred, and died in battle not of old age. By the time of Aragorn, I agree, the longevity is simply general Númenorean, but in earlier times there was a marked difference.

[Lalaith]

Yes, of course, Form. But my point was that the Edain (men) did not get their long lifespans until the end of the First Age. Which does not explain how Earendil and Elwing seemed so youthful in their 70s, in 573 FA.

[Elmo]

Didn't Beor last a long time though?

[Raynor]

What you are doing, Raynor, is defining a man as mortal and an elf as an immortal, and saying there is NO other difference.My I ask how you arrived at that conclusion from my statement? My argument was that if a Man (or to be more exact, one of the Eruhnini), is immortal, then he is an Elf. Interpreting this implication as meaning an exclusive disjunction between this difference and other possible differences between Men and Elves is unwrarranted - esspecially if you consider that previously I presented abilities (or their degrees) which are specific to the Elves.
In the case of Elros' descendents, until the shadow fell on Númenor, four hundred years was the standard lifespan, whereas the Normal Númenorean only lived 250-300 years.It depends on what you mean by the shadow. From 2406, the kings live for less than 350 years, and from as early as 2618, the ruler's life decreases bellow 300 years and continues to diminish.

[Formendacil]

It depends on what you mean by the shadow. From 2406, the kings live for less than 350 years, and from as early as 2618, the ruler's life decreases bellow 300 years and continues to diminish.

I speak of "the shadow" in a broader sense. 2618 would be a fine date to work with. I was even thinking earlier, perhaps when about the time of Tar-Atanamir, when the Kings started to cling to life until it was torn from them.

[Lalaith]

Fascinating though the discussion about the lifespan of the Numenoreans might be, it doesn't help us with the sticky issue of Dior and his descendants.

The Elros thing was resolved by the Valar at the end of the First Age, 583. It has no relevance to the status of Dior in ca 500.

[Raynor]

It has no relevance to the status of Dior in ca 500.Seeing that Luthien was mortal, for all intents and purposes, by the time she returns from Mandos, Dior should be a Man, being the son of two mortal parents.

[Belegorn]

Even Theoden, with no immortal ancestors whatsoever, is still leading an army and fighting at age 71 when he is slain at Pelennor Fields. Éomer goes on to live to 93.

Theoden is descended from the line of Princes in Dol Amroth so he tecnically does have immortal ancestors. His mother Morwen was actually a Dúnadan. Even his niece Éowyn took after his mother Morwen. Theoden's own son and nephew were both taller than other Rohirrim. The kings of Rohan seemed to average around 79 year lifespan. 60*, 58, 101, 89, 86, 80, 74, 73, 68*, 72, 90, 71, 60*, 73, 83, 75, 71*, 93.

[Belegorn]

By the time of Aragorn, I agree, the longevity is simply general Númenorean, but in earlier times there was a marked difference.

It was not the only marked difference early on as those of line of Elros had a distinct advantage "in life-span, vigour, or ability" [Note 27; Aldarion and Erendis] among their peers. I'm not sure how long these differences held among the Faithful. Elendil's line seemed to exhibit superior traits during the Downfall and even Isildur was said to be "a man of strength and endurance that few even of the Dúnedain of that age could equal." [Disaster of the Gladden Fields]

[Belegorn]

The Elros thing was resolved by the Valar at the end of the First Age, 583. It has no relevance to the status of Dior in ca 500.

Agreed. I think since it was only resolved later on it only applied to those who were living. I think also, imo, that the Princes of Dol Amroth were denied this choice as well. Not only because I believe the Valar were specific, it seems, to who the choice would be granted, but also because of the state of the Dúnedain. This state being their constant fear of death, even among the Faithful. Faramir informs the Hobbits how this was still the case in M-E. I'm thinking if this were so generally, then I could not see a Prince of the Dúnedain refusing the opportunity of being granted immortality if it was his to choose.

[AndyC]

Yes, of course, Form. But my point was that the Edain (men) did not get their long lifespans until the end of the First Age. Which does not explain how Earendil and Elwing seemed so youthful in their 70s, in 573 FA.

They weren't. They were born c. 503 and the voyages of Earendil began in 534 (aged 31), the Kinslaying at the mouths of Sirion was 538 and Vingilot arrived in Valinor in 542, when Earendil and Elwing were 39. They made their choice immediately.

[AndyC]

Agreed. I think since it was only resolved later on it only applied to those who were living. I think also, imo, that the Princes of Dol Amroth were denied this choice as well. Not only because I believe the Valar were specific, it seems, to who the choice would be granted, but also because of the state of the Dúnedain. This state being their constant fear of death, even among the Faithful. Faramir informs the Hobbits how this was still the case in M-E. I'm thinking if this were so generally, then I could not see a Prince of the Dúnedain refusing the opportunity of being granted immortality if it was his to choose.

This can be resolved (and I'm sorry for banging on about it :) ) by taking the viewpoint that mortal blood (in any quantity) = mortality.

It's supported by Mandos' words in The Lost Road, which is, however, a fairly old text. Against that, there's no later text; Tolkien never got that far down the track again.

So if we assume that all Half-Elves are mortal (albeit with phenotypes and vigour affected by Elven heritage) unless specifically awarded The Choice by Manwe, the issues go away.

It is noted in Unfinished Tales (the footnote to Elros' entry in the Tale of Kings, I believe, but I haven't got the books with me) that Elros "capacity for life" was identical to that of Elrond, until the weariness (given by the Gift of Men) grew to the point that he laid down his life (albeit that this was long deferred due to a direct gift of Eru to the Numenoreans in general and Elros' line in particular). I do wonder if this is a trait given to other Half-Elven - that of, I assume, not ageing and dying when laying down their life in weariness of the world (which would, one assumes, come quicker to Half-Elves not given special blessing by Eru of extended longevity) with their children and later descendants having "normal" but slower ageing.

That last paragraph crosses the line into sheer speculation, but it is consistent with and coherent with what we do know.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Andy has the right of it. The Choice did not exist until the problem of Earendil and Elwing arose, and it took a special ruling by Eru.* Before that time - i.e. during Dior's lifetime - the Mandos Rule was in effect: any descendant of a Man was a Man.

And, as mentioned above, Luthien had become human before Dior was born anyway. The same situation** would apply to Eldarion in the Fourth Age.

----------------------

*Even then it applied only to them and their descendants, not all half-elves.
**with a couple of technical differences

[cellurdur]

Andy has the right of it. The Choice did not exist until the problem of Earendil and Elwing arose, and it took a special ruling by Eru.* Before that time - i.e. during Dior's lifetime - the Mandos Rule was in effect: any descendant of a Man was a Man.

And, as mentioned above, Luthien had become human before Dior was born anyway. The same situation** would apply to Eldarion in the Fourth Age.

----------------------

*Even then it applied only to them and their descendants, not all half-elves.
**with a couple of technical differences

I disagree with this. Prior to Earendil and Elwing there was no ruling at all and hence why the question was raised about whether Earendil was one of the Noldor or one of the Edain. It's at this point that a decision is made, which states everyone with human blood is then mortal UNLESS given special ruling.

So it seems no decision had yet been made for Dior and his sons or they would have used this as a precedent in the case of Earendil.

If Tuor was allowed to become immortal and live with the elves, then I think it is possible that Dior and his sons would be granted the same chance. Dior only ever lived with Elves, married an elf and was the king of Elves.

Just one extra point, but Luthien never became human, but became mortal.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

If Tuor was allowed to become immortal and live with the elves

IF. It's also highly likely that was just a sentimental legend.

Had he reached Valinor- including by drowning and transport to Mandos- and been permitted to join the Elves of of the Blessed Realm- his case would have been raised as precedent when his son arrived. But instead Mandos, on the latter occasion, flatly declares that no Man may tread the Undying Lands and live.

Dior didn't live long enough for us to point to any unusual longevity; born 470 died 506.

[cellurdur]

IF. It's also highly likely that was just a sentimental legend.

Had he reached Valinor- including by drowning and transport to Mandos- and been permitted to join the Elves of of the Blessed Realm- his case would have been raised as precedent when his son arrived. But instead Mandos, on the latter occasion, flatly declares that no Man may tread the Undying Lands and live.

Dior didn't live long enough for us to point to any unusual longevity; born 470 died 506.

Tolkien strongly indicates that Tuor gaining immortality is not just some legend, but accurate.

"Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."

I don't think Tuor arrived in Valinor before his son and even if he did I don't see why his case would be used as a precedent. Tuor like Luthien was allowed to change their natural fate, by a special act of Eru.

The issue with Earendil was deciding what his default fate should be. In the end it was decided that anyone with mortal blood would be mortal, unless given another doom.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The issue with Earendil was not merely that he was half-elven, but that he had set foot in the West. That was what precipitated the discussion (as well as a ban on his return to Middle-earth).* One thing that can be learned about Dior indirectly from the Earendil case is that E was a case of first impression- plainly the Valar had not considered the issue before, which means that there had been no issue raised when Dior died.

Mandos apparently got to make the call himself- his Halls, his rules. I'm pretty sure he ruled "mortal"-- especially since, as mentioned above, both Dior's parents were mortals at the time he was born. Tough luck for Nimloth I guess. (More problematical would be the postmortem fate of Elured and Elurin).

-------------------------------

*I'm not aware that there was any ban on returned or revived Elves recrossing the Great Sea, at least during the Second Age. Even if we take the case of Glorfindel as exceptional, we know that Elves of Eressea sailed at least as far as Numenor.

[Ivriniel]

Some New Matters (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=704224&postcount=7) have popped up since reading the thread.

I loved reading the Letters quote in the post about Tolkien's comments in an 'seeming' unifying of the divided lineage in Aragorn and Arwen, and in relation to the Choice of the Peredhil. Poor Dior. He does leap out as an anomaly, no matter which way you look at it.

Mandos's decree was one about Doom, and it annexed (seemingly) two Elven bloodlines (Earendil Elwing), based on wording of Canon, as presented in the Silmarillion, and as published.

Although the Decree is seemingly basic, it is a precedent with implications: some are temporal (Dior being born prior to it, yet the reincarnation headache), physical (Maia bloodline is present, and (jokingly - is Elwing then the reason Vingilot flies), metaphysical (Elven/Human Unions and the question of Fea) and Spiritual (Valar Worship ideas, and their implications).

In relation to questions of 'Doom' (and Dior's was tied up with the Silmaril. Presumably, being Elwing's forebear he is well within right of claim of the Choice of the Peredhil. Why didn't he get it? Was it because Mandos doesn't 'know' who and who is not living (yet he mans the forts after death - shunting souls this way and that). Presumably he nabbed Dior and put him somewhere. (Upstream I read about possibility of reincarnation).

I add in the presence of Maia blood, as a glaring reason to ponder Dior as having High Doom. Canon is silent, mostly, about Dior, but with such strong basis in Canon-onic (is that a word?) features about the whole area, I would posit that a simple emendation to Annals was highly likely about any of the several areas raised here, had Tolkien been permitted to publish the Silmarillion before he died.

Then, as has been pointed out that the presence of human blood, "however small in measure" is it "disrupts" immortality, or is it alters "Doom--of Kindreds" (i.e., that latter is a question about the Gatekeeper - Mandos).

So - there is the double-Doom interaction question (your 'contributions to major events + your bloodline Doom).

These are questions broader than Dior's fate and I have put them here and at the Half-Elven Foundation.

[Ivriniel]

A second brief post to put the questions:

On Doom: presumably any union with half-elven offspring (noting that Mandos, the Gatekeeper watches the living and the dead) can, by way of Doom can access the equivalent of the descendants of Earendil and Elwing. Why should Mandos never give it consideration again, after a first precedent? (Gilmith is the burning exception to Canon because it is a *fourth* union of Elves and Men. Then Dol Amroth is also a *fifth*, because it's peoples are, I suspect, blended with Elves from Edhellond).

In general, Doom in Middle Earth went to any heroic being. Exemptions to the Grace of passage (related topic) of access to the Straight Road also exist in Frodo, Bilbo - and Sam (Ringbearers), Gimli (significant bond to an Elf during a period of critical history).

Because an actual physical 'body' of half-half can sustain immortality, this also implies that 3/4 casts, etc can also. (That earlier comments raising the item about 'degree of blood'. This must mean that the presence of some human blood does not disrupt potential for immortality.

It is either of a Door Keeping event (Mandos watches the living and the dead) or is it a function of Fea, because some Fea are exceptionally potent, burning or radiant. Presumably this must affect questions of Doom as well.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

presumably any union with half-elven offspring (noting that Mandos, the Gatekeeper watches the living and the dead) can, by way of Doom can access the equivalent of the descendants of Earendil and Elwing.....

...resumably, being Elwing's forebear [Dior] is well within right of claim of the Choice of the Peredhil.

Why would you say that? Manwe was very explicit as to who got the Choice. (Remember also, from the point of view of the Valar as well as the Elves, Men get the better deal: mortality is the Gift of Iluvatar to Men, a gift not even the Valar can take away.)

Also, what is this Doom you speak of? The only text I'm aware of where Tolkien talks of Doom almost as a force, is in Ulmo's conversation with Tuor in the long UT version: and there it is very clearly the Curse of Mandos upon the exiled Noldor he's talking about.

[cellurdur]

The issue with Earendil was not merely that he was half-elven, but that he had set foot in the West. That was what precipitated the discussion (as well as a ban on his return to Middle-earth).* One thing that can be learned about Dior indirectly from the Earendil case is that E was a case of first impression- plainly the Valar had not considered the issue before, which means that there had been no issue raised when Dior died.

Mandos apparently got to make the call himself- his Halls, his rules. I'm pretty sure he ruled "mortal"-- especially since, as mentioned above, both Dior's parents were mortals at the time he was born. Tough luck for Nimloth I guess. (More problematical would be the postmortem fate of Elured and Elurin).

-------------------------------

*I'm not aware that there was any ban on returned or revived Elves recrossing the Great Sea, at least during the Second Age. Even if we take the case of Glorfindel as exceptional, we know that Elves of Eressea sailed at least as far as Numenor.
On such a great matter as the fate of one of the Children of Illuvatar Mandos is not able to make the call. In fact Manwe specifically says the decision is his alone.

We have no proof either way, but we can give arguments for both sides.

I don't personally see the Valar saying tough luck to Nimloth, about a matter which was not decided and could have been argued either way. If in the case of Tuor who was raised by Elves Illuvatar was prepared to change his fate then I don't see why Dior would not get the same grace. Even more so since he was descendant from a Maiar.

Further more Dior's marriage is never counted as marriage between an Elf and a mortal.

[Belegorn]

On such a great matter as the fate of one of the Children of Illuvatar Mandos is not able to make the call.

.....

Further more Dior's marriage is never counted as marriage between an Elf and a mortal.

I don't think Mandos was necessarily deciding their fates here, rather than stating two facts in his interaction with Ulmo. Half-elves are mortals.

If one believes in the rumor in Dol Amroth, than Galador too was a half-Elf. The only difference between him and the others who were granted it, he was not given a choice to choose his Doom. Galador was mortal.

Dior was indeed referred to as an Elf in his title, but if one were to take The Laws and Customs of the Eldar as true than he certainly did not grow up like an Elf.

[cellurdur]

I don't think Mandos was necessarily deciding their fates here, rather than stating two facts in his interaction with Ulmo. Half-elves are mortals.

If one believes in the rumor in Dol Amroth, than Galador too was a half-Elf. The only difference between him and the others who were granted it, he was not given a choice to choose his Doom. Galador was mortal.

Dior was indeed referred to as an Elf in his title, but if one were to take The Laws and Customs of the Eldar as true than he certainly did not grow up like an Elf.

No I agree that Mandos was not deciding their fates, but stating two facts. My argument was that this was such a grave matter that only Manwe had the right to make the decision. So there was little chance of Mandos making a ruling without first talking to Manwe.

Personally I don't believe in the rumours of the Dol Amroth, but even if we accept the rumours to be true, it's a different situation than Dior. Galdor was born amongst men and grew up with men. Dior on the other hand had lived nearly his entire life with Elves and even ruled Elves. He would later marry an elf and just as importantly Dior's life happened before there was an official ruling. Any intermarriage after the ruling would know what they were getting into.

Dior was only referred to as an Elf, back when Beren was one of the Gnomes, but once Beren was changed to a Man, Dior later refers to himself as the first of the Peredhil.

“Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father’s, and his mother’s, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: “I am the first of the Peredhil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the Eluchil.””

Dior like Earendil and all the other Halfelven grew up at a rate similar to humans if we are to accept the ages given in Laws of Customs.

[Morthoron]

Dior being a three-dimensional character (Maia, Elf and Man) is probably where they got the term Diorama. :D

[Gothmog, LoB]

Unless we go with the assumption that Dior was indeed a full mortal because he was only conceived after Lúthien had made her very special choice which not only got her out of her immortal Elda/Maia-heritage but also restored Beren back to life - a very special trick indeed - then there is no reason that Dior could even inherit 'the Quendi destiny' from her.

Unless, of course, we would assume that the choices that were given to Lúthien (and later Eärendil, Elwing, and their sons) were not binding to their descendants. But we know that this is the case from the fate of the children of Elros Tar-Minyatur so there is no reason whatsoever to assume that Dior got any special treatment due to the status of him being the child of an Elda-Maia half-blood (who had already given up all that) and a mere Mortal.

However, we do not know Eru's plan for Dior and his wife, so he might have given Manwe/Mandos special instructions how to deal with Dior's spirit as soon it showed up at Mandos.

We have to keep in mind that Dior is the offspring of a very important union between Elves and Men, most likely the most important such union in the history of Arda. Their romance most certainly was a huge and crucial part of the entire plan of Eru how to allow Men to absorb part of the elven-nature into their own bloodline. That is important later on. And I see no reason to not believe that Lúthien becoming mortal and Tuor becoming immortal wasn't part of that, too. This is conceived as some sort of mirrored exchange.

Perhaps part of the Dior problem also arises from the fact that Beren wasn't supposed to a Man in the original conception of the story. In that version only Eärendil would have been a half-elf, acting as a representative of both Elves and Men in the West. Eärendil's son(s) were of no real significance in that version of the story, either.

We should also keep in mind that the Eru's plan never would have been to have the Fall of Gondolin or the Ruin of Doriath the way it occurred.

Symbolically, I think, there is a strong case to be made that Beren and Lúthien's eventual marriage marked the beginning of the end of Doriath. Thingol and Melian - just as Turgon later on - should have read the signs correctly and given up the worldly things they had grown so accustomed to.

Lúthien's apparent loss causes 'Thingol's winter' in Doriath, and despite the fact that he is restored to health and life by her touch later on things have changed dramatically. The wise move would have been to abandon Doriath eventually, and give in to the inevitable change of time (say, move to Mouth of Sirion, or to Balar, helping the Mariner to prepare for his great quest). In that sense I find it very important to actually stress the importance that poison entered into Doriath both with the (wish for the) Silmaril as well as with the later greed for the Nargothrond gold, and so on.

Dior as a mere Mortal actually claiming the kingship of Doriath after Thingol's death and Melian's departure (who, to a much lesser degree, would also have been caught up in the corruption of the world as well as the desire to let go of things - her husband and kingdom - which she was not yet willing to give up) could be a fine symbol for this decay.

He certainly is of the divine line of Melian the Maia and Elu Thingol but he is still a mortal Man. The idea that he could rule Doriath as its king unchallenged and in peace in those times is itself a very interesting paradox. I mean, we are talking about a court in which Túrin Turambar, the king's very own foster son, was mocked by one of the king's own trusted advisers because of his human heritage.

Dior would most likely have the support of the majority of the Sindar in Doriath, but most certainly not of all of them.

That said, Eru's original plan/wish for could actually have been to join Eärendil on his quest. Especially in combination with the fact that Turgon was actually supposed to abandon Gondolin once Tuor arrived there rather than continue his futile attempt to preserve his previous little isolationist paradise.

One wonders what would have happened had Turgon and the Gondolindrim actually heeded Ulmo's warning and abandoned the city? Would that have resulted in some union between Turgon/Tuor/Eärendil and Dior and his children? If you check the timeline it seems possible that they could have teamed up and averted both the Second and Third Kinslaying.

And then, perhaps, not only Eärendil and Elwing would have gone West in that boat, but Turgon, Idril, Dior, Nimloth, Elwing, Eärendil, and their children together? In such a scenario the Dior situation could have resolved in a better way.

But the real problem with the Peredhil thing is actually the ability/right of Elrond's children to choose. If their fate is somehow connected to Elrond's presence then why the hell is this only the case with Elrond's children? Shouldn't Elros' children not also have had the right to choose to 'abandon their father' and either live with their uncle Elrond in Lindon or with their grandparents Eärendil and Elwing in Aman?

Eru/the Valar certainly could have passed on the message that Arwen had the right to choose via Gandalf but that would then also have been a special grant from Eru himself, not something Arwen and her brothers could do simply by deciding to not stay with their father.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A lot of it has to do with the fact that according to both Tolkien and Manwe, the Gift of Men is much the superior option; the ability to leave the Circles of the World is so precious that no-one, not even a Vala, can take it away. This is the basis of the Mandos Rule: if any Eruhin possesses through even the least bit of genetics the right to go live with Eru, we can't take that away.

-------------

(Saeros: he wasn't a Sinda or a native of Doriath but a Nando, a refugee from Amon Ereb, with their traditional dislike of Men; Thingol, Mablung and it would appear most everyone else thought he was being a prat)

[Gothmog, LoB]

A lot of it has to do with the fact that according to both Tolkien and Manwe, the Gift of Men is much the superior option; the ability to leave the Circles of the World is so precious that no-one, not even a Vala, can take it away. This is the basis of the Mandos Rule: if any Eruhin possesses through even the least bit of genetics the right to go live with Eru, we can't take that away.


I'm not sure the Valar can even change the fate of the Eruhíni in this department at all. They might theoretically be able to use brute force like Morgoth did with Húrin and Sauron later accomplished via the Nine Rings, but that isn't the same - not to mention that it would be wrong. Morgoth and Sauron use their powers to mess with Eru's plan in a way they are not supposed to.

I also very much doubt that Mandos/Eonwe or even Manwe himself were anything else but Eru's spokespersons on the matter of Beren-Lúthien or Eärendil-Elwing-Elrond-Elros. It is a fine tale that Mandos got moved by Lúthien's plea and at all - but even if that was the case it wouldn't have been up to Mandos (or Manwe) to send Beren back or allow Lúthien her choice. In that sense it is quite clear that Eru Ilúvatar could easily have granted any half-elven running around in Middle-earth to choose his fate if he was so inclined - which he wasn't. He reserved that privilege for his chosen bloodline, the people he destined to be crucial in the overthrowing of Morgoth during the First Age whose descendants would also found and rejuvenate the royal line of the Edain.

Whether Dior belonged to those or not remain unresolved. Since Eru did apparently never contact him directly Mandos may have received special instructions how to deal with him. Or not. We don't know. I guess there is a chance that he was given a choice but how he would have chosen is completely unclear. Was he emotionally closer to his wife or his mortal parents? His overall bearing suggests he was close to the Eldar but whether that's actually the case isn't clear - his ancestry and royal status might have forced him into accepting the kingship of Doriath.

And then there is the fact that he was not, in fact, a half-elf in the same sense as Eärendil, Elwing, or Elrond/Elros were. His parents already had been mortal by the time of his conception. On the other hand - Mandos/Manwe could already have revealed to Lúthien what the fate of their son would be and whether he had a choice. But if they did that it was never revealed. However, if Dior had been granted a choice and had made such a choice before his death then he would most likely have chosen the Eldar (because of his wife) and subsequently Elwing wouldn't have been born as a half-elf, or would she? She would have been born as an Elda, and there would have been no reason for her even to make a choice. In Eärendil's case it is clear - if Tuor got a choice then this would have been revealed to him/given to him afterwards. When he and Idril finally reached Aman (or only Tol Eressea?). Eärendil would still have been born as a half-elf.


(Saeros: he wasn't a Sinda or a native of Doriath but a Nando, a refugee from Amon Ereb, with their traditional dislike of Men; Thingol, Mablung and it would appear most everyone else thought he was being a prat)

That is of little significance. The man was a trusted adviser and courtier of King Thingol, and his bad behavior clearly reflects back on both Thingol and Melian and their judge of character. Something was rotten in the state of Doriath, or else such a person would never have risen to such prominence.

Not to mention that Thingol himself was, lets say, less than pleased when Beren was asking for Lúthien's hand in marriage. Given Beren such an impossible task was both wicked and cruel (because he wanted Beren to fail and die) as well as the first sign of his corruption because he actually coveted one of the Silmaril. And while it is great that Beren and Lúthien succeeded in their quest, their success was the first step in Doriath's downfall. Had Thingol just given Lúthien to Beren Doriath could, perhaps, have held out until the War of Wrath. Up to this point it had not yet been touched by the shadow nor committed any sins of its own that would draw them into the fate of the exiled Noldor.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ah, but Thingol had a 'road to Damascus' moment with regard to Men after the wolf-hunt and Beren's first death. The old Thingol would never have even entertained the idea of fostering Hurin's son.

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I suppose that's a question worth investigating: when exceptions to The Rules appeared, like Earendil, were the Valar empowered to apply the Manual of Regulations as best they could, or were such decisions above their paygrade? Tolkien hints, at the very least, in his Letters that Earendil and Luthien were part of the hidden Plan for the future of Arda, which implies direct Iluvataran guidance in those cases.

But Dior? No great Doom attached to his fate.

[Gothmog, LoB]

@William Cloud Hicklin:

Certainly, Thingol personally changed his mind on mind in the wake of the entire Beren-Lúthien episode. But he either failed to notice that there were counselors at his own court that didn't change their mind, or he didn't care to spread his new view among his own people (or he failed at that).

Saeros-Orgol's behavior reflects badly on himself and on Thingol-Melian because at any royal court mocking the foster son of the monarch is also an affront against the monarch itself. By mocking Túrin Saeros clearly also showed publicly that he didn't care all that much about Thingol and his decisions. And trying to kill Túrin - well, that's an even bigger crime.

Well, from Ósanwe-kenta that Eru could directly contact anyone he wished, and nothing could prevent him from doing so. Therefore he could have given Dior (or any other half-elven he wanted to reach) a choice without going through Manwe or Mandos.

In the case of Eärendil-Elwing and their children it is portrayed as if Manwe/Mandos knew of them and Manwe had been previously given the authority to grant them their choice. But whether this was actually so or whether Manwe silently conversed with Eru before he addressed Eärendil and Elwing isn't really clear.

However, if Eärendil-Elwing were so central to the history of Arda and so special as Tolkien suggests in his letter (and there is no reason to doubt that considering that Eärendil definitely is the greatest and most important hero of the entire Silmarillion complex) then it might very well be that their deeds were predetermined by the Music of the Ainur and/or at least visible in the vision Eru later showed the Ainur.

If that was the case then Manwe most likely wouldn't have been able to actively ask for Eru's counsel on the whole thing - but Eru would still have been the one granting Manwe the right and the power to change the fate of Eärendil, Elwing, and their children. This doesn't seem to be a power the Valar routinely possess.

An intervention of Eru would have been even more necessary in the case of Beren and Lúthien because the restoration of Beren's body and Lúthien's permission to leave the confines of the world together with Beren doesn't seem like something the Valar would actually be able to do or influence.

And Dior - well, as I've said above if things had gone differently he might have been with Eärendil on Vingilot, or he might even have fulfilled Eärendil's role. He ended up as the King of Doriath and was killed, but we don't know what would have happened if Turgon had left Gondolin when Tuor first came there.

Eru's original plan might have been that Turgon, Idril, Tuor, Eärendil, Elwing, Nimloth, and Dior show up as emissaries from Beleriand. In that case Manwe might have given all of them a choice (save Turgon, of course).

In Arda Marred we should always consider the possibility that things didn't go as planned. Eventually Eru always triumphs (at least according to the Eldarin propaganda) but the lives of many people still sucked (including those of Orcs, Túrin-Nienor, and so on).

[Alcuin]

Mandos did not make rules: He enforced them. And he did that aggressively.

From Silmarillion, “Of Beren and Lúthien”, after Lúthien sang to Mandos in his halls of the suffering of Elves and Men, moving him to pity “who never before was so moved, nor has been since”:Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Mandos couldn’t change the rules. In the debate over Eärendil and Elwing, Mandos spoke concerning [Eärendil’s] fate; and he said: “Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?” But Ulmo said: “…is … Eärendil Tuor’s son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon’s daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwë?”…

…Manwë … said: “In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.”When this debate takes place, Dior, Elwing’s father, is already dead. So are her brothers, Eluréd and Eluchíl. Mandos has already seen and knows what has happened to their spirits: If they’ve left Arda, he knows it and can report it, but if they’ve remained in Arda, he knows and will report that. His speech indicates they’ve all three departed from his halls and from Arda to wherever the souls of Men go.

The Problem of the Half-Elven had not yet been debated by the Valar. It didn’t require resolution until Eärendil arrived on the shores of Eldamar with Elwing and the Silmaril. Besides, Tolkien’s imaginary “history” is, like real history, the records of rulers. There’s no reason not to believe that there were other unions of Elves and Men (like Imrazôr and Mithrellas), just no other unions among the ruling houses: The only unions in the ruling houses were Beren and Lúthien, who both returned to Middle-earth as Mortals, and Tuor and Idril.

If Dior is Mortal – not “Man”, because physically he really is Half-Elven, and his wife is Elven and so “immortal” (longevial with Arda), then Elwing his daughter is in the same position as Eärendil: “Half-Mortal”. Half-Mortal may be a better term for this debate than “Half-Elven”.

Mandos enters into the debate about Eärendil and Elwing with the knowledge that Dior, Eluréd, and Eluchíl arrived in his halls and then departed Arda; otherwise, he cannot defend his position in the debate.

The key passage is this: The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of himEärendil and Elwing knowingly took upon themselves the dreadful risk of punishment out of love. And in respect of their self-sacrifice, a one-time decision was made: They could choose that fate they would share: with Elves to remain in Arda, or with Men to depart from Arda. The same choice was offered to Elros and Elrond, and to Elrond’s children while he lived.

I worked out the math several years ago, and I think I’ve posted it here before. Only if Dior is Mortal is Elwing also Half-Mortal.http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg

My points, though, are these: Mandos knew what happened to Elwing’s father and brothers, who had already died.
He was bound to truthfully report this to the other Valar.
Mandos wasn’t making rules: He was carrying out Rules he had been given.
Mandos cannot change anyone’s Fate: Elves stay, Men leave. The only exception so far was Lúthien, and she left with Beren.
His speech implies that Lúthien’s son and grandsons left Arda, too.
Manwë made an exception because Eärendil and Elwing acted out of love and self-sacrifice.Manwë, not Mandos, also made the exception for Lúthien.

Love and self-sacrifice are the missing ingredients so far in this thread. Remember, Tolkien is Christian and Catholic. Love and self-sacrifice are central themes in the Crucifixion. “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

Beren sacrificed his life for love of Lúthien; Lúthien sacrificed her life for love of Beren, then begged Mandos for mercy. Perhaps because she’s half-Maia, Mandos relents, but he still has to go to Manwë to accomplish this, because Mandos has no authority to change the Rules. “Manwë sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Ilúvatar was revealed.” We would say that Manwë prayed and meditated. In this way the line of Lúthien descended among Men. That wasn’t Manwë’s will: it was Ilúvatar’s.

Eärendil sacrificed himself for love of Elves and Men. Elwing sacrificed herself for love of Eärendil. This time, Manwë doesn’t hesitate: he cuts off debate and says they get to choose.

Elrond’s children also get to choose among which people they will be numbered, Elves or Men. Perhaps Elros’ three sons and daughter also had this opportunity; but probably not. I agree with Gothmog, LoB (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=704315&postcount=66) that this is “the real problem with the Peredhil” for readers. I think a reasonable explanation is that it was Eru’s will that, at the end of the Third Age, Arwen sacrificed herself for love of Aragorn to re-ennoble the descendents of the Númenórean kings as the Fourth Age began, and refresh the line of Lúthien. (Arwen was Lúthien's granddaughter's granddaughter. Aragorn was separated from Lúthien by about sixty generations.) Giving Elrond’s children the same choice as their father enabled this.

These are not the only times love and self-sacrifice appear as major themes in Tolkien’s mythos. In the Lord of the Rings, Frodo and Sam both sacrifice themselves: Frodo for love of the Shire, Sam for love of Frodo. Gandalf sacrifices himself on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm to protect Aragorn and Boromir, who foolishly charged onto the bridge and would otherwise have been killed. Gil-galad and Elendil sacrificed themselves to save their peoples and destroy Sauron’s physical form. Amandil last Lord of Andúnië sacrificed himself to save to the Faithful Númenóreans before the Downfall of Númenor: Elendil and his sons and followers were spared. This is a reoccurring theme in Tolkien.

[Gothmog, LoB]

@Alcuin:

Yeah, Dior wouldn't be diminished in his divine bloodline, power, or abilities by not inheriting the fate of the Eldar from his parents. When Beren and Lúthien returned to Middle-earth they had become mortal but both of them - but especially Lúthien - were still immensely powerful and blessed thanks to the rewards they reaped for the deeds they did.

And I think the fact that Dior was the son of Beren and Lúthien as well as the grandson of Melian and Thingol was what enabled him to become the King of Doriath despite the fact that he would most likely not rule this kingdom for long.

If we go with the sacrifice theme as the reason why Eärendil and Elwing were rewarded with the choice (and strangely also their sons who didn't do anything to deserve such a privilege) then Dior might actually have been unlucky because he was slain before he could make such sacrifices himself.

As I've said above, the timeline would certainly have allowed Dior to team up with and accompany Eärendil to Valinor had there been no Second and Third Kinslaying. And if Turgon had left Gondolin before the Ruin of Doriath he and Tuor/Idril might have been able to prevent both the Second and Third Kinslaying. I mean, whatever pitiful forces Feanor's sons still had when they attacked Doriath and later the Mouths of Siron wouldn't have been a match for the Gondolindrim had they come to live with Dior at Doriath and/or convinced him to move down south with them to built the ship for the grand journey.

Dior could easily have been the one wearing the Simaril his parents took from Morgoth, whereas Eärendil would have just been the guy who built and steered Vingilot. But that didn't come to pass.

And if it is true that Tuor was in the end counted among the Eldar then Dior also could have been able to be granted the same fate, or at least a choice about what he wanted.

The problem with Arwen's choice can be sort of rectified with Gandalf acting as Manwe/Eru's messenger, but if that's the case then Tolkien really dropped the ball in properly establishing/setting up any of that. I mean, there would have been space in Appendix A to recount how Gandalf (or even Saruman) informed Elrond and his daughter about the special destiny that awaited Arwen in the future.

But there are also hints that all of Elrond's children are sort of considered to be chattel of their father, bound to him fate-wise in a very direct sense. After all, it is said that by not going with Elrond they effectively chose mortality. And if that works for Elrond's children then it should also work for Elros' children - meaning that had his children decided to leave their father and return either to the Eldar in Middle-earth or go to Aman that they would have been counted among the Eldar.

And that is a very strange idea.

And as far as I recall it is completely unclear whether Elladan and Elrohir truly chose the fate of mortal men by staying behind or whether they (and Arwen, as her last conversation with Aragorn suggested) could change their mind until the very end simply by repenting and taking a ship into the True West.

There is also a continuity error there in regards to the time when Círdan left. Celeborn and Elrond's sons are still there at that time, and Legolas later builds his own ship but Arwen claims that when Aragorn died no ship was left which could take her west, indicating that the Mithlond was already deserted.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

but Arwen claims that when Aragorn died no ship was left which could take her west, indicating that the Mithlond was already deserted.

It could be read that way, but it also could be interpreted as meaning that although there were still ships, Arwen wouldn't be allowed to board (the actual wording used is "would take" not "could take"). She had given up her ticket, as it were.

The fact that Legolas built his own ship is interesting (where did he learn the craft??) Does this imply that Cirdan was out of business, or does it reflect statements T makes elsewhere that suggest rather strongly that sailing West was the prerogative of the exiled Noldor alone?*

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*Plus Cirdan, acording to the late essay on him: after all, he would have gone after Olwe but for Ulmo's command.