Most powerful in ME

[Lutfiska]

Hullo!

Whos the most powerful "beings" in ME?
Sauron, Gandalf, Elrond seems like quite certain answers but then... Maybe Iarwain Ben-Adar maybe Fangorn. Galdriel also perhaps, and maybe Saruman. Lots of maybes smilies/smile.gif
But i´m having a hard time rating them so plz gimme your picture in a list like 1: 2: 3: etc. etc. etc

[Iarwain]

IARWAIN!!

No, really, they are:

1. Iluvatar/Eru, the divine creator of Arda
2. Manwe, the lord of the air, weather, etc. High king of the Valar
2. Melkor/Morgoth Evil Ainur who became corrupted before the creation of Arda and tried to mar its creation.
3. Hard one here, Either Ulmo, Aule, or Mandos. I'm not sure but someone else will know.

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Dain]

I think the ranking depends on what you are rating them on when it gets to separating valar. Tulkas is a great warrior, but Aule is very powerful in his ways, and Ulmo likewise. Is Manwe really stronger than Melkor?

Out of beings who actually dwell in the east, Sauron and Gandalf are among the most powerful. And of course, Tom Bombadil!

Edit: Oops, guess who just figured out who this "Iarwain Ben-Adar" guy is...silly me!

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

[Iarwain]

Melkor/Morgoth and Manwe are coeval, they're both in second place. I'm pretty sure that it's Ulmo in third place for general power.

[The Saucepan Man]

For views on who were the most powerful in ME in the Third Age click me (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=002161).

[Afrodal Fenyar]

Well, Eru doesn't really belong to ME(or Arda)

And I think Melkor/Morgoth is more powerful than Manwë. After all, he fought alone against all other valar. Well, in the First Age he was actually only a shadow of his former glory, but anyways, in the beginning, Melkor was the most powerful.

Tom Bombadill didn't have any power outside his own land, and even there he could have been defeated, I think. So at least not Tom.

[Iarwain]

No, it specifcally says that Manwe and Morgoth are equal, they were brothers in the mind of Iluvatar: Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might. But that name he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the Elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, and they name him Morgoth, the Dark Enemy of the World. Great might was given to him by Ilúvatar, and he was coeval with Manwë. In the powers and knowledge of all the other Valar he had part, but he turned them to evil purposes, and squandered his strength in violence and tyranny. But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor; and he called unto himself many spirits both greater and less, and they came down into the fields of Arda and aided Manwë, lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and Earth should wither ere it flowered. And Manwë said unto Melkor: 'This kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others have laboured here do less than thou.' And there was strife between Melkor and the other Valar; and for that time Melkor withdrew and departed to other regions and did there what he would; but he did not put the desire of the Kingdom of Arda from his heart.

We know nothing of Tom, so you cannot say anything for sure. He is an enigma that cannot be compared to anything else in Arda. He could have been all powerful and merely limited himself to his land, but we do not know.

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Melkor must be far more powerful in original nature...The greatets power under Eru. (He was to make/design/begin; Manwe A LITTLE LESS GREAT was to improve, carry out complete.)

Here we can see in Myths Transformed (HoME 10) that in Tolkiens latter writings, in which the context of the Silmarillion was being drastically changed.

[Lathriel]

Eru would be the most powerful since he created the Ainur and the Ainur created ME.
But the Maiar were very powerful and sadly Melkor/Morgoth became too powerfl for his own good.

[burrahobbit]

The Valar didn't live in Middle-earth.

Neither did Eru.

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Iarwain]

Good catch, Burrahobbit. Then this thread is an irrelavent repeat. Goodbye all.

[Meoshi]

Not quite. It depends on which age you are talking about.

1st age- Melkor, who at the time did live in ME.

2nd age- one of the kings of Numenor

3rd age- Debatable, probably Sauron

4th age- definitely Iarwain, unless there are any Balrogs left, which is kind of unlikely

[Deathwail]

Sorry Burrahobbit but Ulmo spent more then enough time in the Oceans of ME for it to be called his home.And Orome sure hunted there alot in the early days as well.And if given the chance Melkor would be ruler over all of Arda most likly forever.
smilies/smile.gif

[burrahobbit]

That is like "the oceans of Europe." Middle-earth is not a planet, it is a continent.

[Beren87]

Well, here's one age that's easy:

7th age: Beren87

[Deathwail]

Well i guess thats one way to look at it, but in any event Melkor for sure lived in ME before he was cast out into the void as it says clearly in the index of the Silmarillion that Utumno was in the north of Middle Earth.
smilies/smile.gif

[Iarwain]

No, no, Beren. Iarwain isn't going away until everyone is dead, so as long as I'm around you can be #2 smilies/wink.gif . Tom is such a curious character. He could be just an odd old hermit with a tendancy towards treeishness and we would never know any difference. smilies/wink.gif

Burrahobbit is, of course, correct. Middle Earth is a continent, the western portion of which once was Beleriand. Therefore, the most powerful beings would debatably be (as Meoshi has already posted)

First Age: Melkor
Second Age: Sauron
Third Age: Sauron (w/ Gandalf the White in a close second)
Fourth-Seventh Ages - Iarwain and Radagast the Brown and Beren87 (too close to tell smilies/wink.gif )

Iarwain

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Scott]

I wouldn't be so cocky! That's quite a long time to be reigning...

Not even Sauron made it past two ages. I'm not sure you have the power to survive four smilies/wink.gif

Erundil, the one who honors Eru, on the other hand looks to be fit enough. ...Well, then again, maybe not.

[Legolas]

Gandalf was greater than Sauron.

[The Saucepan Man]

What's your basis for that bold statement, Legolas?

And are you talking about Olorin the Maiar or Gandalf the Wizard? And if the latter, Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White? Or all of them?

[ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Bêthberry]

Interesting that this question seems to devolve merely into identifying who has the most control over others, who is able to dominate others the most effectively.

Shouldn't the question of power be defined in terms of how Tolkien uses the idea?

One of the most powerful themes in Tolkien is the respect for individual people and the abhorence of coercing or dominating others.

Thus, power most probably should be defined as power over one's self, the ability to decide upon a course of action and remain true to that course without violating one's principles without bullying others. From this perspective, I would suggest that the most powerful characters are Frodo and Sam.

Bethberry

[Lalaith]

Bethberry has a good point. Surely the point about Tom B/Iarwain was not that he had power, but that others had no power over him.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

Blah, Burrahobbit, can't you ever say anything positive?

[Iarwain]

Bethberry, I think you're getting a little close to mixing up power with wisdom. If Sam or Frodo came into a sort of contest against Sauron, I highly doubt that either of them would find it easy to be uneffected by the Dark Lord.

Iarwain


P.S. By the way, if you want to discuss power in Middle-Earth, feel free to drop on in to my "Magic vs. Power" thread!

[rutslegolas]

i think sauron was the mighteiest of all the beings on the middle-earth for he almost conquered it,

before him maybe morgoth was the strongest

but gandalf,aragorn cannot be consisdered as strong as they never did capture anything or rule anything by themselves they required allies to win,

so sauron the dark-lord can be said to be the strongest being on middle earth

[Eorl of Rohan]

Every time I meet you, I contradict you, rutslegolas. smilies/biggrin.gif

You mean Sauron's orcs and Haradrim weren't his allies, as Gandalf's gondorians and rohirrims were?

In fact, if you look at it that way, since Gandalf's side had much less actual power, and yet won, that Olorin is greater.

[Frodo2968thewhite]

Well, for certain "beings" or "races" In all of creation (not including evil mutations), here it is:

1. Eru Iluvatar
2. The Vala
3. The Maia
4. The Noldrim Elves
5. The Quenya Elves
6. The Sindar Elves
7. The race of Men
8. Dwarves
9. Hobbits

Legolas, when you say that Gandalf is greater than Sauron, it does depend on which "form" of Sauron. If you mean the Eye of Sauron, than you are right, but in some of his other forms, you would be incorrect.

By the way, when it comes to the eighth age, there is only one leader, *Frodo the White*, or as my "real" Elven name:
"Iorhael Lolindir Ancalime I Taur" -this is what I shall be called. smilies/wink.gif
smilies/biggrin.gif I SHALL RULE ALL OF Middle Earth!!!!!!!

[Kransha]

Individuals

1. Iluvatar obviously
2. Manwe, since he's the Lord of the Valar
3. Melkor, the evil equivalent of Manwe

Races/Being Categories

1. Well, Iluvatar is his own category
2. Valar
3. Mair

[Lenwe]

How bout those two other wizards?Pallando and Alatar were they powerful

[Kransha]

I suspect that Alatar and Pallando, the Blue Wizards, had the power level of Radagast or Gandalf the Grey perhaps. They were probably not as powerful as Gandalf the White or Saruman in terms of other Istari.

[Gurthang]

When talking about the most powerful being in ME, you should probably exclude Eru, the Valar, and the Maia(except wizards and Sauron), because they did not actually dwell in Middle Earth.

And you should probably specify if you mean will power or strength. But here are my picks.

1.Sauron
2.Gandalf
3.Elrond
4.Durin's Bane
5.Saruman
6.Witchking
7.Galandriel
8.Fangorn
9.Aragorn
10.Shelob

I don't know if I'm leaving any out. And you can count number 4 out if you like because it was destroyed. But there they are.

[Iarhen]

I think I would modify your list. Sauron would be top of all, followed by Gandalf the White… but Elrond and Galadriel are clearly misplaced as well as the Witch King and Shelob. I would re arrange it like this:

1. Sauron
2. Gandalf the White.
3. Saruman (before Gandalf defeated him)
4. Balrog.
5. Galadriel.
6. Elrond.
7. Fangorn.
8. Witch King of Angmar.
9. Aragorn.
10. Shelob.

I would have to say, though, that it would depend on the circumstances surrounding a confrontation between the characters. For example, if Fangorn entered Shelob’s lair, he would, most probably, be eaten. And if Shelob did the same, she would be crushed. The Witch King was afraid to enter Lorien because of Galadriel, but I have my doubts of the outcome if the Witch King confronted personally the Lady (especially with the sword… but she must have some kept tricks under her big sleeves!). And Saruman was terribly powerful, but after his staff was broken, he would prove no match for the Balrog, Elrond or Galadriel (the ones immune to his voice).

[Arwen Undolmiel]

I think the most powerful character in ME is Gandalf the White. Only his will and wisdom gives the men the will to fight at helms deep ect. I think the 2nd place is shareb by Elendil,Gil-Galad and Sauron, all mighty warriors of the 2nd Age
3rd place goes to Aragorn and Glorfindel
Thats my oppinion
(if u dont like it talk with me smilies/wink.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

1. Sauron
2. Gandalf the White.


Actually, my earlier question to Legolas notwithstanding, I have since been convinced (by reference to extracts from Tolkien's Letters) that Gandalf would, in his full Maiar form at least, been a match for Sauron. I do not have the reference to hand, but it refers to Olorin and Sauron being co-equal in their origins.

At the time of the War of the Ring, Sauron had diffused much of his power into the Ring. So, quite possibly, Gandalf was his superior, although Gandalf was injuncted from using his full powers. Sauron with the Ring, though, would probably have been too much for Gandalf, even as Gandalf the White.

[Kransha]

Excluding Valar

-Sauron: Yeah, he's just the best
-Gandalf: Close to Sauron actually
-Saruman: As strong as Gandalf, but a little less so.
-Balrog: He's maiar, he has to get fourth.
-Galadriel: Better than Elrond, closest to being a full fledged Maiar.
-Elrond: Not as powerful as Gladdy, but still good.
-Witch-King: Except for that pesky Achilles Heel...or should I say "sinew behind his mighty knee".
-Treebeard: Yup, he's powerful
-Smaug: EVERYONE FORGOT HIM! Just because he was taken down by an archer doesn't mean he's not powerful. The witch-King got killed by a woman and hobbit anyway.
-Shelob: Stupid hobbits and their phials of light and pointy knives.

[Lhunardawen]

If this thread means to include Beleriand, I think you forgot:

Fingolfin, the only Elf who dared fight against Morgoth alone, and even got to wound him 7 times...

Beren (without the 87, I'm afraid smilies/smile.gif ) and Luthien, who managed to get one of the Silmarils from Morgoth's Iron Crown...

Finrod Felagund, who killed a wolf of Sauron with his bare and and teeth, and...

Huan. 'Nuff said (if you have read the Sil).

[Iarhen]

Maybe in their origins Sauron and Olorin were equal...

But remember that Morgoth placed part of his power on Sauron (as he did with all of his servants). And even though by the 3rd Age Sauron had disipated his power on his servants, he was still more powerful than GAndalf the White (remember in TTT where GAndalf says that hes the most dangerous being on M.E. except Sauron).

Maybe Gandalf the White, weilding the One Ring, would be able to kick Sauron's butt... But thats a wholly different matter...

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Hi guys,
I read somewhere that Morgoth has ben drastically weakened by pouring his malice into the making of Arda. I believe I also read in Silmarrion that Eru granted skills to Aule as much as to Morgoth. Then again, Tulkas is definitely the best fighter among the Valar. Morgoth is said to be very scared of Varda because of her light.
So I don't see why Morgoth should be placed on par with Manwe. I do agree though, that he is the strongest physical being on middle-earth, though also the most cowardly. Prof Tolkien himself said it, I think.

[Falagar]

It all comes down to how one defines powerful, and which point in time we're speaking of. Physical strenght? Excluding the First Age (which would require much more thinking than I am capable of at the moment, and it's some time since I read the Silmarillion): Sauron perhaps, who defeated both Gil-galad and Elendil. It's not said how Isildur managed to defeat him, but I doubt it was in a fair fight, and anyway Sauron probably was 'tired' and damaged. The Balrog was strong, but how strong I'm not sure.
Treebeard is also very strong, in pure physical strenght I doubt many could match him (but he didn't use any weapons).

"Magical" powers? (Again excluding the great Elves, Men and Maiar/Valar of the First Age) Hard to decide. I don't have The Letters, but have read a good deal of quotes from it. Using what I have: according to Morgoth's Ring, Sauron was ...greater, 'effectively', in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First.
because while Morgoth put much of his power into the earth to corrupt it, Sauron: inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings, for it was the creatures of the earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to domniate.
Could probably quote a bit more from that essay, it's a great source. I can't remember any of the quotes from Letters saying (definitely) that Gandalf was stronger than Sauron (at least not in the 2nd Age), but they may very well exist (could someone provide a quote?).

Galadriel is said to be the Greatest of the Noldor ([maybe] with the exception of Fëanor), Elrond is part Noldo, part Man (from all the three houses, if I'm not mistaken), part Maia and part Sinda. Though he chose to be an Elf that's bound to have an effect on him.

Of Bombadil's powers we know little, save that he (according to Galdor or if it was Glorfindel) couldn't stand against Sauron (but if it means all of Sauron's forces or Sauron himself is not made clear). I think he had great powers outside his realm as well, he just didn't want to step outside...

The Balrog is very powerful, he/it killed Gandalf the Grey though he himself was killed. But we know that Glorfindel managed to kill one (of equal strenght? Lesser? Stronger?) in the First Age (again, killed himself in the fight), so perhaps Elrond or Galadriel could have done the same (though it's doubtful, since Gandalf had big problems with him). Smaug was indeed great, but compared to the other great beings we can't know...
Treebeard was strong, but mostly physically it would seems (I can't remember any other powers specifically mentioned).

The two above combined? Hard to say, but I think I'd go for Sauron.

Powerful in the sense of greatest military strenght? Excluding the First Age again, Sauron in both the Second and Third Age; but then Gil-galad and Elendil (though united, and with the support of Thranduil) managed to beat him. Númenórë was never a part of Middle-earth, I believe. And of course Treebeard had a large army of trees at his disposial. smilies/wink.gif


Sorry, tired right now and rambling. Hope I made at least one or two valid point(s) (and sense), and not just repeated what has already been said, here and elsewhere.

-Nelyo

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:19 AM February 08, 2004: Message edited by: Falagar ]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:23 AM February 08, 2004: Message edited by: Falagar ]

[the phantom]

Here are my picks-

First Age:
bad- Melkor
good- Feanor

Second Age:
bad- Sauron
good- Elrond

Third Age:
bad- Sauron
good- Gandalf

It's difficult to pick the most powerful mainly because Tolkien rarely said "this guy was more powerful than this guy". He called individuals the "greatest", but as The Barrow-Wight humorously pointed out in another thread, according to his dictionary if someone is called the greatest then it means they are the largest.

We don't know exactly what Tolkien meant when he said "greatest". What particular virtues and abilities have more to do with greatness in his mind? Does he subtract points from bad individual's total greatness points because they are bad and he considered good to be greater? Does he disregard some things that we wouldn't and consider things we wouldn't?

So not only are all of those "greatest quotes" (as I like to call them) ambiguous, but also remember- greater does not mean more powerful (and "most powerful" is what the thread title says). Try finding more specific quotes than "so and so was the greatest". For instance, from the Sil-
For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive.
That's what I call specific praise of a powerful person.

[Falagar]

So not only are all of those "greatest quotes" (as I like to call them) ambiguous, but also remember- greater does not mean more powerful (and "most powerful" is what the thread title says). Try finding more specific quotes than "so and so was the greatest". For instance, from the Sil-

To finish the quote:
Sauron was greater, 'effectively', in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandred his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain controle of others.
(my epmhasis)
And also the rest of the text implies that Morgoth had used so much of his powers in marring Arda that Sauron was greater than him at Sauron's height.

Not sure if you were refering to me, just in case. smilies/wink.gif

[the phantom]

I'm pleased, Falagar, to see that you raised some questions in your other post that I always ask myself in these "most powerful" sort of debates-
It all comes down to how one defines powerful, and which point in time we're speaking of. Physical strenght?...Magical" powers?...Powerful in the sense of greatest military strenght?
These comments demonstrate part of the reason why I believe there often is not a definite answer for the question "Who is the most powerful?" which, of course, allows people to draw many of their own conclusions.
Not sure if you were refering to me
I was not referring to the quotes you used, they were quite good. But what I said would apply to what you said here-
Galadriel is said to be the Greatest of the Noldor ([maybe] with the exception of Fëanor)
Here is the quote you were referring to-
Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe
And then there is this quote-
These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.
and the author's note that follows the quote-
Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.
These quotes inevitably come up in power debates, but as I said in my previous post they matter much less than the quote that I gave about Feanor because not only is the Feanor quote more specific but most importantly- "greatest" does not translate into "most powerful". "Greatest" is difficult to define (as is "most powerful"), so we can't use "greatest" quotes as hard evidence.

Suprisingly those quotes have hardly been mentioned in this thread (something that I'm pretty happy about), but I decided that I'd go ahead and address the issue before the quotes started to get used.

[samwise8504]

1. Sauron
2. Gandalf the white
3. Saruman ( before gandalf broke his staff)
4. The balrog
5. Galadriel
6. Elrond
7. Glorfindel
8. Elladan and Elrohir
9. Witch king
10. Treebeard

[rutslegolas]

I agree with The Phantom its according to what you see as more powerful by stature or power or military strength ,but to me the Dark Lord was the most powerful among all the characters of Middle Earth.