Biggest Heroes in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Who are the biggest heroes in the books? What would happen if they were never written in?

[Arwen Imladris]

I personally think that Frodo is the biggest hero of the Lord of the Rings. In the Hobbit I would actually say Bard because he was the one who killed the dragon. It is kind of unfair to just pick one hero, most of the characters in the books were important. It would have been O.K. if different people had done different jobs, for example, if Pippin had stayed with Theoden and Merry had gone to Minas Tirith, it would not have changed the story line.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

I think that almost everyone in LOTR played the role of the hero at one point or another. It's hard to choose, though I must say that Frodo and Aragorn had the toughest jobs.

[Lomelinde]

Don't forget the often overlooked Samwise Gamgee in the LOTR. If it weren't for him,the ring probably wouldn't have been destroyed. He was a source of strength and courage for Frodo when the odds began to seem insurmountable, and carried Frodo several times, literally and figuratively.He was a wellspring of hope and a voice of reason in a dark, irrational place.Let's face it- no Sam, no ultimate obliteration of evil. smilies/biggrin.gif
Also, remember Turin Turambar. Although he was more of a tragic hero, and his life was one big ill-fated mess, he remained noble throughout and retained his dignity, always attempting to overcome his foibles and inner demons, even though he never did.

[Elven-Maiden]

Here's my list
-Frodo
-Sam
-Gollum (yes, Gollum)
-Luthien
-Beren
-Bilbo
-Gandalf
-Bard
-Aragorn
-Faramir

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

Finrod Felagund

[Vinyacairwen]

Frodo, Sam, Aragorn, and Gandalf ^^.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Shame on me for not mentioning Samwise... I have the last name Gamgee after all smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Thinhyandoiel]

Finrod, I'd say. And Luthien. This is for the Silmarillion. I noticed, when it talked about Beren and Tinuviel, it was mainly Tinuviel who was saving everyone. smilies/biggrin.gif Girl power! (yeah, okay that was cheesy). But as for the actual Lord of the Rings trilogy, I'd say Sam and Frodo. Though Merry did a heroic deed with the WitchKing, as did Eowyn. I don't know!! Everyone was a hero in their own respect, I think.

[ainur]

I have to start with Gollum. He had the toughest row the hoe. Yet, even at the very brink of Mount Doom, he was still a Hobbit in some small way. Most of us could not claim that much strength. I don't know anyone who is that strong. No One! That's a hero!
My favorite, though is Galadriel. She is probably the oldest elf in the story of "The Lord of the Rings" and has been through so much more than you can understand if all you've read is "The Lord of the Rings." She was guilty of collusion in the Kinslaying at Alqualonde, and yet she did not go on the stolen ships back to Middle Earth. She struggled through the Helcarax on foot with all the rest. Her story is the story of Middle Earth, more than anyone else you could meet there. If I recall correctly, she was born in Valinor, but until the end of 'The War of the Ring,' she can never go back there. She is still under the sentence of The Valar because of the Kinslaying. Her general efforts in the war (She went into southern Mirkwood and battled with the Nazgul who were still holding onto Dol Guldur,) and, more importantly, her refusal of The Ring when Frodo offered to give it to her (The Mirror of Galadriel), garnered her a pardon from the Valar. She was the only guilty one left from the Kinslaying still in Middle Earth by the time of "The Lord of the Rings." Many reviews have noticed how mean and evil she seemed in the movie in 'The Mirror of Galadriel' scene in the movie. I think that Peter Jackson just realized how important this was to her (imagine the deciding moment in a ten-thousand year life.)
That's why Galadriel is my favorite. It's the only 'sincere' offer Frodo makes to give up The Ring, (all other offers were strictly out of his own fear and desire to remain unchanged and be relieved of the burden of It.) It's also the most dangerous, since she is the one most likely to consider accepting It. The fact that she doesn't is what makes her a hero. The greatest because she is the oldest, and because she learns wisdom from such as Frodo.

[Bramblerose Gamgee-Took]

I think Frodo, because to travel all that way, and to go through all that he went through, He was quite Heroic. And also Sam, becasue he seemed to stay cheerful, even going up the Cracks of Doom.

[lathspell]

As for the hobbit I would go for Bilbo. He is the greatest hero in the, going with some dwarves on an adventure of which you know that there's a dragon waiting for you at the end. And his actions in Mirkwood and the Elven-Kingdom were heroic.
LotR - Almost all of the important characters are hero's, but if I had to choose one it would be Aragorn, because he traced Gollum and had the important part of gaining the kingship of Gondor.
Silmarillion - I've always thought of Beren, Luthien, Hurin and his son Turin. But in my opinion Earendil is the greatest hero because of his sailing the oceans to Valinor to save ME. I even think of him as greatest hero of all ages as I've said elsewhere.

Galadriel indeed was important in the history of ME, but I don't think she was the hero in it. I guess she is the most powerfull elf, or even most powerfull of all things (except the DL) in LotR.

[Afrodal]

Blah, it's too hard to choose smilies/smile.gif

Well, Eärendil is of course one. He sailed to Valinor and asked for valar's help, though the journey was perilous. But he was never in great danger on his journey. Hmm..

And then there is Frodo. I think that he is heroe because he destroyed the Ring though he was so small smilies/smile.gif But a greater heroe is Sam.

And Finrod is of course one, Beren and Luthien too, Turin in his own way, Hurin and Huor.

Blah, there's too many great heroes in Middle-Earth. It would be better to ask for the hundred greatest heroes of Middle-Earth smilies/smile.gif

[Melian]

I think Eärendil was in danger. The Valar could have killed him for even attempting to get to Valinor...
I like Melian of course, but I can´t say she´s my favourite. I guess every character is a hero in some way, that´s why it´s difficult to choose one. Don´t you think?

[Eärendil]

I certainly agree with you on the last bit Melian!
Wouldn´t be able to choose even if I had to... smilies/biggrin.gif

[Ivorwen]

Gollum. If it weren't for him, Frodo would never have thrown the ring in Mount Doom.

[VanimaEdhel]

From LotR I would say Sam Gamgee. I never really found Frodo to be a real "hero". I guess because he was always with Sam, who was so heroic and loyal.

Frodo, although I do admit he had a remarkable burden, of which I never wish to have bestowed upon me, almost gave up, but I do not believe that Sam would have ever given up. He carried the ring himself for a while, and, although he never felt the burden Frodo did, stayed by his master, Frodo, when it seemed hopeless. I never really loved Frodo, but I loved Sam in the story.

Although, Gandalf is also a hero. And Aragorn is as well. And many could argue (and I agree) that Gollum is a tremendous hero. I feel that he is more of a complex character than an actual hero. He DID lead them to Mordor, but he DID have the intention of giving them up. He then struggled with his inner self, because, deep inside, the old Smeagol was still inside, and Smeagol seemed to love the hobbits, probably especially as he was once a hobbit himself.

BOY do I digress...but, that is why I feel that Gollum is more of a sympathetic or sometimes empathetic character than an actual HERO. He is more of a tragic figure than a hero I think.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

The list of heroes is too long to count. I don't know why I came up with the topic considering I can't even pick out which one is the biggest hero. Picking out my favorite character is hard enough!

[Kalimac]

Actually, you could say that Sam gave up - the scene in "The Choices of Master Samwise" where he turns around to take a last look at where Frodo's body is lying, and sees Orcs heading towards it. Then he thinks "I can't be their Ring-bearer. Not without Mr. Frodo" and runs back to him - it's only by great good luck that Sam wasn't captured on the spot, and if he had been of course he would have lost the Ring.

Just a thought.

[TheBlackRider]

Well I would have to say none other than Gandalf. If he wasn't there to help Bilbo find the ring then what would have become of it? What if he never found it in the Shire? What if he hadn't sent Frodo out on his quest? What if he hadn't beatemn the Balrog? I think he derserves the most praise. And also he came back from the dead?

[dragongirlG]

For LOTR:
Gollum
Frodo
Sam
Eowyn
and all the rest of the characters...each had an important part

For the Hobbit:
Bilbo
Bard

For the Sil...haven't finished it yet

[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: dragongirlG ]

[Afrodal]

Btw, ainur, Galadriel surely wasn't the oldest elf. At least Cirdan was older.

[Nar]

Good point, Kalimac. From a strictly strategic standpoint, --get the ring into the fire!-- Sam failed there. Apparently, Sam could deal with leaving Frodo and going on alone, in which he was right, but he could not deal with actually seeing Frodo's 'body' being despoiled.

The proper thing to do when leaving a fallen companion behind would be to dispose of their remains in a way that prevents desecration and despoiling (if possible). Putting their dead beyond the reach of predators and wandering orcs was very important to the three companions as well as the Rohirrim. It was obvious that Frodo's 'body' would be found sooner or later and, orcs being orcs, looted, then probably-- no, let's not talk about that. There was Shelob, as well. What could Sam have done? Replay the problem of Boromir, (pyre? --no, cairn? --no) only with less equipment, more danger, and no saving waterfall at hand. However, there was a steep cliff nearby, on the road into Mordor. Sam could have dragged Frodo's body down there and tossed it over, which would have put off the orcs, at least. There are similarities to going over a waterfall, but not enough for that to feel like a good end. Somehow a waterfall seems gentler. It's fortunate for Frodo that Sam didn't think of it, but, softhearted hobbit that he was, he probably wouldn't have been able to do it anyway.

Leaving morbid speculation aside, the text indicates that Sam had a feeling, which he initially suppressed, that the strictly strategic standpoint was wrong in Frodo's case. Some characters do have flashes of foresight as well as dreams of the future, but I think that in this case Sam's somewhat softheaded loyalty functioned like Bilbo's and Frodo's pity. Strategy and determination are servicable, but never sufficient. What I find interesting is not that kindness helps, but that previous kindnesses that were completely off-mission wins the game so convincingly at the end. That's a nicely constructed plot.

[Morgoth of Angband]

i think isuldur is the greatest hero in the sil. his valor in getting the seedling from the tree and cutting the ring outnumbered his mistake of trying to keep the ring.
gandalf for the lotr. three of the original wizards were of no help and he had to oppose the other and oversee the fellowship. pretty impressive.

[KingCarlton]

Sauron...the lord of the rings.
Without him..no story..

oohh look, pretty bright light...

~time for my medication~

blee squee (Know peace in Whalic)
smilies/eek.gif

[Ivare]

One of the things I love about JRRT's books is that every charachter matters. Everyone is needed, even if they aren't particularily heroic. Gollum, for instance, is one of those charachters that you most certainly couldn't do without but I don't think he's really a hero. Even though he wanted and tried to do good some of the time, he usually did everything for himself.

This having been said, I do have a few favorites:

Lotr: Sam, Aragorn, Eowyn, Gandalf, Faramir, and Beregond. And Frodo. Everyone is always hard on Frodo, but if you think about it, he does have the worst burden of all. And he's always shown with Sam, and Sam is the sort of person that makes everyone else seem unimportant.

Sil: Ummm....
Fingolfin, even though he was slightly stupid to chalenge Morgoth to combat- he almost won!!
Finrod
Fingon
Luthien- much more so than Beren- It seems like she was always the one doing the hard stuff and Beren was the one getting rescued by either Luthien or Finrod
Tuor
Turin- sort of. He messed up a lot, but meant well.
Beleg- Definately!!!!
Gwindor
This list is too long!!!! I give up!!!!!

[StarCupcake]

About every character shows courage and selflessness in LotR; few, however, such loyalty as Samwise. Shunned as only secondary, barely mentioned as much as he should be, but he was the strongest character of all. What a hero.

[Lotrelf]

When, for the first time, I saw the LotR movies, I felt EVERY ONE was important. I couldn't bring myself to decide who was the greatest among them. The character I was most impressed with was Sam. After reading the books, I came to realize that the biggest hero is Frodo in the books. Why? Well, here's the answer:
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love¡ªto save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could; and also in complete humility, acknowledging that he was wholly inadequate to the task."- J.R.R. Tolkien
In this letter, we are told that Frodo knew he is completely inadequate to task of bearing the Ring and destroying it, but he does it anyway. Other heroes, like Frodo, were aware of their inadequacy as well, but among them only Frodo decided to go on the "Mission Impossible."

[Lotrelf]

About every character shows courage and selflessness in LotR; few, however, such loyalty as Samwise. Shunned as only secondary, barely mentioned as much as he should be, but he was the strongest character of all. What a hero.

He wasn't treated as "secondary" at all. After returning from the quest, he and Frodo are treated as "equals" and not primary or secondary. :)

[Faramir Jones]

He wasn't treated as "secondary" at all. After returning from the quest, he and Frodo are treated as "equals" and not primary or secondary. :)

I agree with you here about Samwise, Lotrelf. He was certainly intended by Tolkien to be the biggest hero of LotR. He was treated as an equal by Frodo to the extent that the latter made him his heir, everything he had being given to him. Sam and his wife Rosie are pushed upstairs by this into the ranks of the gentry.

This is only one of the many rewards received by Sam during his life, the greatest his being allowed to go over Sea. Unlike others, he is a hero who is justly rewarded.

The most heroic thing he did was to, thinking Frodo dead, decide to take the Ring and continue the quest on his own, not matter how much it hurt him to do so.

In terms of the Silmarillion, the one I regard as the biggest hero is Húrin. Despite being captured and tortured by Morgoth, and totally at his mercy, he still defied him to his face. When Morgoth told him that his family was at the former's mercy, Húrin pointed out, 'You have none'. What particularly impressed me, however, was his calling Morgoth 'an escaped thrall [slave] of the Valar', something that stands along with Fëanor's description of him as a 'jail crow of Mandos'! :D:)

[Lotrelf]

I agree with you here about Samwise, Lotrelf. He was certainly intended by Tolkien to be the biggest hero of LotR. He was treated as an equal by Frodo to the extent that the latter made him his heir, everything he had being given to him. Sam and his wife Rosie are pushed upstairs by this into the ranks of the gentry.

This is only one of the many rewards received by Sam during his life, the greatest his being allowed to go over Sea. Unlike others, he is a hero who is justly rewarded.

The most heroic thing he did was to, thinking Frodo dead, decide to take the Ring and continue the quest on his own, not matter how much it hurt him to do so.

I'd disagree with you here. Tolkien NEVER meant Sam to be the "biggest" hero of the books. If you read the books, you'd see Sam does everything out of his love for Frodo. While Frodo does everything out of love for his home. Which love is more valuable? I'd say both. But, which one deserves more "praise"? I'd go with Frodo's. Because Sam was doing for the person he truely loves, and knows he is loved by that person equally. While Frodo did for a community. "To save the world he knew from disaster." In a world there ARE people who you love, hate or dislike or sometimes you don't give them a crap. But, when the time comes you are ready to sacrifice yourself for them. You know from the books what kind of reputation Frodo had in the Shire. He could have said "no" to the quest and lived there as Mr. Baggins, but he went to save them anyway.

When it comes to Sam's reward, I agree with you. But was it only Sam's? Don't you think it was something He got because of Frodo? Frodo left his home. Why? To get better? Is it something what he'd do? No. Though, there're many reasons tied to Frodo's departure, and I'm not going deeper. But Frodo would have stayed in the Shire and died there. And then? Merry, Pip and especially Sam would blame themselves for not being able to save him. Can you imagine how devastated Sam would have been? To save them all from this he left his home. The life you see rest of the fellowship living in the appendices is because Frodo sacrificed himself.
Sam's deeds are moving, heart melting, poignant instead of being heroic. :)

[Lotrelf]

I agree with you here about Samwise, Lotrelf. He was certainly intended by Tolkien to be the biggest hero of LotR. He was treated as an equal by Frodo to the extent that the latter made him his heir, everything he had being given to him. Sam and his wife Rosie are pushed upstairs by this into the ranks of the gentry.

This is only one of the many rewards received by Sam during his life, the greatest his being allowed to go over Sea. Unlike others, he is a hero who is justly rewarded.

The most heroic thing he did was to, thinking Frodo dead, decide to take the Ring and continue the quest on his own, not matter how much it hurt him to do so.

I'd disagree with you here. Tolkien NEVER meant Sam to be the "biggest" hero of the books. If you read the books, you'd see Sam does everything out of his love for Frodo. While Frodo does everything out of love for his home. Which love is more valuable? I'd say both. But, which one deserves more "praise"? I'd go with Frodo's. Because Sam was doing for the person he truely loves, and knows he is loved by that person equally. While Frodo did for a community. "To save the world he knew from disaster." In a world there ARE people who you love, hate or dislike or sometimes you don't give them a crap. But, when the time comes you are ready to sacrifice yourself for them. You know from the books what kind of reputation Frodo had in the Shire. He could have said "no" to the quest and lived there as Mr. Baggins, but he went to save them anyway.

When it comes to Sam's reward, I agree with you. But was it only Sam's? Don't you think it was something He got because of Frodo? Frodo left his home. Why? To get better? Is it something what he'd do? No. Though, there're many reasons tied to Frodo's departure, and I'm not going deeper. But Frodo would have stayed in the Shire and died there. And then? Merry, Pip and especially Sam would blame themselves for not being able to save him. Can you imagine how devastated Sam would have been? To save them all from this he left his home. The life you see rest of the fellowship living in the appendices is because Frodo sacrificed himself.
Sam's deeds are moving, heart melting, poignant instead of being heroic. :)

[Belegorn]

It'd have to be Eärendil and Frodo to me because their actions turned the tide of the times. They may not have been the strongest of their species but were perhaps the greatest by what they did. I'm not sure who I'd choose from the 2nd Age, maybe I'd give a dual trophy to Gil-galad and Elendil since they wrestled and beat Sauron.

[Morthoron]

Tolkien's editor. A brave man beyond words.

[Pervinca Took]

I agree, Lotrelf. I also think Frodo was just as brave after his quest as during it, and that a substantial part of his decision to sail west was so as not to cast a shadow of illness and death over the lives of his friends. Although I am confident that it was the best decision for himself, too, and that he knew it. It still takes gumption to do something like that. There is an element of a "leap of faith" in the decision to depart for Tol Eressea on a one-way ticket, even, as Tolkien put it, for "someone who had been through Frodo's experiences."

Edit: good point, Morthoron!

[Galadriel55]

Tolkien's editor. A brave man beyond words.

Said like a true Mirthoron! :)

[Lotrelf]

Although I am confident that it was the best decision for himself, too, and that he knew it. It still takes gumption to do something like that. There is an element of a "leap of faith" in the decision to depart for Tol Eressea on a one-way ticket, even, as Tolkien put it, for "someone who had been through Frodo's experiences."

Yes, it was indeed the best thing he could do for himself and those he loved. It gives me a message! Like, in modern society, people "fail" and they wish to end their lives. While they may have another chance too, but they choose to finish it all, and commit suicide. Frodo, OTOH, lives on. He gives himself another chance.
IIRC, Tolkien said that Frodo decided to go across the Sea after his illness in 1420, when farmer Cotton saw him.

[Lotrelf]

It'd have to be Eärendil and Frodo to me because their actions turned the tide of the times. They may not have been the strongest of their species but were perhaps the greatest by what they did.

Excuse my arrogance, but I don't think we can say Frodo was not strongest of his race/species. Strength doesn't only come from defeating a monster in the world, but defeating a monster inside of us. That's what Frodo did. The latter one, I guess, is tougher. :)

[Pervinca Took]

LOTRelf, I think it was the illness the March after that one when Tolkien said he finally decided to sail West. The one where Sam was home, but Elanor was being/about to be born, and Frodo managed "with a great effort" to hide his illness.

Fully agree about different kinds of strength. Just because Frodo doesn't get the chance to fight a giant spider, it doesn't mean he wasn't brave enough to (after all, he forces back the eyes with the Phial - Sam reckons the Elves would have made a song about that!) It just wasn't his brief. He had a very strong concept of his duty by the time he and Sam were alone on the Quest. That was to keep going towards the mountain as long as he could, and keep from capture for as long as possible. Painful, hard, agonising, humiliating, not swashbuckling. But brave? Hell, yes.

[Belegorn]

Excuse my arrogance, but I don't think we can say Frodo was not strongest of his race/species. Strength doesn't only come from defeating a monster in the world, but defeating a monster inside of us. That's what Frodo did. The latter one, I guess, is tougher. :)

I'd leave room for disagreement on this only because there were Bilbo and Gollum who lived with the Ring much longer than Frodo and obviously used it more often, and there were periods when they were to a great degree not downtrodden at its loss. Gollum for a while when under Frodo's wing while Frodo had the Ring was turning it around, after nearly 500 years with it, and Bilbo actually let it go after about 50-60 years with it.

[Mithalwen]

It'd have to be Eärendil and Frodo to me because their actions turned the tide of the times. They may not have been the strongest of their species but were perhaps the greatest by what they did. I'm not sure who I'd choose from the 2nd Age, maybe I'd give a dual trophy to Gil-galad and Elendil since they wrestled and beat Sauron.

Second age has to be Gil-galad for me. He doesn't. Fall for Sauron'wiles as annatar, rules wisely and well for an age, builds vital alliances with Numenor then finally does the classic Noldor king dramatic and valiant death.

First age, Finrod, Beleg, Tuor and Idril, Fingolfin


Special mention for Cirdan and Elrond, models of self sacrifice

[Pervinca Took]

For the Second Age, I think I'd maybe choose Amandil. Heartbreaking self-sacrifice.

[Inziladun]

It's not an easy choice, but in LOTR I might lean to Gandalf. Unlike Frodo and Bilbo, who did heroic things with relative ignorance of the big picture, Gandalf was charged with the awesome responsibility of organizing the resistance to Sauron. He should have had the assistance of his fellow Wizards, but they were either wandering in the Wild East, playing with the birds, butterflies, and squirrels in Mirkwood, or plotting to rule the world. Gandalf, through all his trials, showed admirable patience, and to me even more importantly, he never lost sight of the end goal, toward which everything he did led.

[Ivriniel]

I'd leave room for disagreement on this only because there were Bilbo and Gollum who lived with the Ring much longer than Frodo and obviously used it more often, and there were periods when they were to a great degree not downtrodden at its loss. Gollum for a while when under Frodo's wing while Frodo had the Ring was turning it around, after nearly 500 years with it, and Bilbo actually let it go after about 50-60 years with it.

Frodo was under the pump, relative to Gollum and Bilbo, because Sauron's power had grown, greatly at the time Frodo had the Ring. He also bore it in Mordor and, as was noted in text, the Ring's power grew as it approached the place of its making.

My heroes:

Beren and Luthien. They pulled it off--Sauron's creepy tower, and then Morgoth's throne. She did it for love.

Meriadoc and Eowyn and slaying the Nazgul - I still tear up about that one....some brave shorty and love-crazed ice maiden stand before this thing of maximum creepy and do it in. One for women, and one for short things.

And an *all time* favourite - Silmarien of Andunie, first female in the Line of Elros and keeper of the line of the Faithful

[Mithalwen]

She did it for her own interests, to satisfy her own lust, and got my Finrod killed...she is a villain, the hideous baggage, we hates her, we hates her forever!

[Lotrelf]

Yes,Pervinca, it was his illness in March. Though, why did he decide to go after that?

As for strength thing, I agree. From the text, it is clear that Frodo is NOT unable to fight. When they're in danger at Weathertop, it is Frodo who stabs Witchking. "He was hardly less terrified than the other Hobbits."(not exact quote, but it said something like this.) Before the Ring starts taking hold of him, it's him, among the hobbits who fights. Later in story, Ring gets heavier. We are given how it was affecting him i.e. He was the most weary among the three, He lagged and Sam had to ask Gollum to stop so that they don't leave their master behind etc.etc.

[Lotrelf]

It's not an easy choice, but in LOTR I might lean to Gandalf. Unlike Frodo and Bilbo, who did heroic things with relative ignorance of the big picture, Gandalf was charged with the awesome responsibility of organizing the resistance to Sauron.

Frodo knew big picture. He knew Ring's evil & nature when Gandalf told him about the Ring. And when he decided to take the Ring to Mordor, it was HIM who saw the 'big picture.' Others, Including Gandalf and Elrond had academic knowladge of the Ring. But Frodo knew the torment of it.
As for Bilbo, I haven't read the book yet, and seen only first movie.

[Ivriniel]

Frodo knew big picture. He knew Ring's evil & nature when Gandalf told him about the Ring. And when he decided to take the Ring to Mordor, it was HIM who saw the 'big picture.' Others, Including Gandalf and Elrond had academic knowladge of the Ring. But Frodo knew the torment of it.
As for Bilbo, I haven't read the book yet, and seen only first movie.

I never trusted Frodo's volunteerism. I recall thinking he was too quick to volunteer, and wondered if it was his attachment to the Ring's evil that was talking when he volunteered.

[Mithalwen]

I can see why you might think that but I think Tolkien compared it to the Annunciation and Mary and the sundering of self to the divine will. Of course that may be a retrofitted idea to fit with his "consciously Catholic in the revision" statement.

[Lotrelf]

I never trusted Frodo's volunteerism. I recall thinking he was too quick to volunteer, and wondered if it was his attachment to the Ring's evil that was talking when he volunteered.

He was not "too quick" to volunteer. Or may be he didn't delay, and he should not. If you do not trust his volunteerism as heroic, I'd want you to recall the scene on Seat on Seeing where he sees "visions" and in the end feels Ring's will working on him(the Eye thing) and Gandalf's intervention. Two wills working on him, both of them stronger than his, trying to dominate him. I don't think after this he couldn't say "no" to the quest. He had "excuse". While reading the books we see he has every reason/excuse to give up, but doesn't. He did not complete his journey only because of Sam & Gollum, but because of his own too. For his quest taking because of his attachment to the Ring, I'd like you to read Tolkien's quote:
Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could; and also in complete humility, acknowledging that he was wholly inadequate to the task. His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that.
I feel, this pretty much answers your question. :) and when Bilbo could give it up after 60 years, how come Frodo could not give it up after 17 years? Sigh.

[Pervinca Took]

I never trusted Frodo's volunteerism. I recall thinking he was too quick to volunteer, and wondered if it was his attachment to the Ring's evil that was talking when he volunteered.

Interesting thought, but I don't concur, because it's said that he felt "an overwhelming desire to rest and stay beside Bilbo's side in Rivendell." I believe he only volunteered because no-one else offered (except Bilbo, who was too old) and he felt it was his duty.

There might be an element of what you mentioned in Bilbo's offer, perhaps ... he had possessed the Ring so long, and desperately wanted to see and hold it again, in that scene in the Hall of Fire.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Cirdan. For enduring the longest boring seaside retirement in history.

[cellurdur]

It's hard to compare such things like this, because we all have different capacities. think all we can be expected to do is to do our best. Frodo did that and this is why he was a hero and the ring was destroyed. He gave every last bit of energy he had to destroying the ring. Luthien and Earendil may have been able to destroy it, because they had greater natural talents, but that does not make them any more of a moral hero than Frodo.

In terms of the greatest deed then Luthien and Beren have to be first, because they accomplished the most difficult task. They alone were able to do what the entire army of the Noldor failed to do; take a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown.

[Mithalwen]

But they did it purely for their own benefit so to me that is not heroism.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Gotta give a nod to Finrod, who gave up his kingdom and undertook a suicide mission just because he had sworn an oath (and to Beren's father, not even Beren himself); and who, alone among all the Eruhini, dared take on Sauron face-to-face in a contest of magic.

[Mithalwen]

Yes, that is heroism. Tackling a werewolf with your nails and teeth deserves a degree of respect too..possibly more...rater more hands on approach.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Beleg also gets full marks in the "self-sacrificing loyalty" department.

[cellurdur]

But they did it purely for their own benefit so to me that is not heroism.

No they did it to fulfill an oath they made and had many times to turn away. Beren and Luthien had no personal wish to gain a Silmaril. In terms of self sacrifice for the greater good then the obvious stand out examples are Earendil, Frodo and Cirdan.

[Mithalwen]

Can't argue with that. I cried for him as well as Felagund when I was eleven and reading the Silmarillion for the first time. But there was no comforting "but Finrod walks with his father..."...

[Mithalwen]

No they did it to fulfill an oath they made and had many times to turn away. Beren and Luthien had no personal wish to gain a Silmaril. In terms of self sacrifice for the greater good then the obvious stand out examples are Earendil, Frodo and Cirdan.

That is disingenuous. They needed the Silmaril to get what they wanted for themselves. Noone else benefitted and it caused many deaths. It would have been better for everyone else if they had turned away or failed.

[Inziladun]

For The Silmarillion, I'll go with my namesake, Tar-Palantir.
He did what he could to turn his kingdom back to the paths of peace and wisdom, in what was a time of violent unrest and likely personal danger for him and his child. He stayed true to the purpose and never backed down. His lack of success should not be counted against him.

[cellurdur]

That is disingenuous. They needed the Silmaril to get what they wanted for themselves. Noone else benefitted and it caused many deaths. It would have been better for everyone else if they had turned away or failed.

Not at all. Luthien gives Beren the option of abandoning the quest and leaving with her. It would have been dishonourable on Beren's part, but something he could have done and still left with Luthien. In the end he gives his life to ensure that he fulfills his oath even it meant taking the jewel from the crown of Morgoth.

[Mithalwen]

But it still is all about them. Makes it worse really if needless. Fighting to the last drop of other people's blood is the opposite of heroic.

[cellurdur]

But it still is all about them. Makes it worse really if needless. Fighting to the last drop of other people's blood is the opposite of heroic.

How did they fight to the drop of other people's blood? Beren was set an unfair quest which he did not ask for or want. Luthien for the love of Beren and his desire to remain faithful to his oath undertook the most dangerous mission any elf has undertaken ever. Other people helped them along the quest, because of the love they had for Luthien and Beren. They did not force anyone to fight for them. Finrod and Huan chose to help as did the 12 other elves.

[Galadriel55]

How did they fight to the drop of other people's blood? Beren was set an unfair quest which he did not ask for or want. Luthien for the love of Beren and his desire to remain faithful to his oath undertook the most dangerous mission any elf has undertaken ever. Other people helped them along the quest, because of the love they had for Luthien and Beren. They did not force anyone to fight for them. Finrod and Huan chose to help as did the 12 other elves.

Personally, I could see Luthien as somewhat heroic, facing down Morgoth for the sake of her love. Beren, though? "I love you and need a Silmaril to marry you, so would you mind getting one for me?" He doesn't do anything except let other people do the work! First Finrod, then Luthien... I loved him when he was the last survivor of Barahir's group - then he was certainly a hero, but we don't really hear much about his "adventures" there. It was very heroic to cross Dor Daedeloth, and very climactic that the Girdle of Melian was powerless to stop him. But from there he just makes promises he cannot (and in truth does not) fulfil, and gets other people to do it for him. Yes, he wants to do it himself and keep Luthien out of danger, but each time he never actually ends up doing anything and other people pay for his Silmaril.

[cellurdur]

Personally, I could see Luthien as somewhat heroic, facing down Morgoth for the sake of her love. Beren, though? "I love you and need a Silmaril to marry you, so would you mind getting one for me?" He doesn't do anything except let other people do the work! First Finrod, then Luthien... I loved him when he was the last survivor of Barahir's group - then he was certainly a hero, but we don't really hear much about his "adventures" there. It was very heroic to cross Dor Daedeloth, and very climactic that the Girdle of Melian was powerless to stop him. But from there he just makes promises he cannot (and in truth does not) fulfil, and gets other people to do it for him. Yes, he wants to do it himself and keep Luthien out of danger, but each time he never actually ends up doing anything and other people pay for his Silmaril.

Beren cannot be blamed for not having the power to match Luthien, but you seem to be forgetting that he saved her from the sons of Feanor. He speared Celegorm off his horse and it was he, who took a poisonous arrow to save Luthien's life. He then faces Morgoth, which must have been terrifying and cuts the Silmaril from his crown. He is also the one, who jumps out to stop Carcharoth when Luthien is tired. Finally he dies saving Thingol's life. Luthien being the greatest and the most powerful of all the Children accomplished more, but Beren played his part and was prepared to sneak through the gates of Hell with her.

Beren also actually keeps his promise. The next time he sees Thingol, there is indeed a Silmaril in his hand.

As for his adventures prior we know he did enough that he had a prince on his head equal to Fingon the High King of the Noldor. Sauron himself had to be sent with an army at his back to drive him away. We know enough about Dor Daedeloth to know it was inhabited with several Shelob like spiders, but Beren alone got through them.

[Ivriniel]

Beren cannot be blamed for not having the power to match Luthien, but you seem to be forgetting that he saved her from the sons of Feanor. He speared Celegorm off his horse and it was he, who took a poisonous arrow to save Luthien's life. He then faces Morgoth, which must have been terrifying and cuts the Silmaril from his crown. He is also the one, who jumps out to stop Carcharoth when Luthien is tired. Finally he dies saving Thingol's life. Luthien being the greatest and the most powerful of all the Children accomplished more, but Beren played his part and was prepared to sneak through the gates of Hell with her.

Beren also actually keeps his promise. The next time he sees Thingol, there is indeed a Silmaril in his hand.

As for his adventures prior we know he did enough that he had a prince on his head equal to Fingon the High King of the Noldor. Sauron himself had to be sent with an army at his back to drive him away. We know enough about Dor Daedeloth to know it was inhabited with several Shelob like spiders, but Beren alone got through them.

high five to that. I add in that it was a story about the power of two/love, and how heroism is evoked for and of love. Neither Beren nor Luthien would, either alone, have been so moved to heroism, but for their love of each other. Unto the end of time they would have gone for their love.

[Andsigil]

Beren cannot be blamed for not having the power to match Luthien, but you seem to be forgetting that he saved her from the sons of Feanor. He speared Celegorm off his horse and it was he, who took a poisonous arrow to save Luthien's life. He then faces Morgoth, which must have been terrifying and cuts the Silmaril from his crown.

I agree with Beren being at the top of the list of heroes. However, only one hero ever dared to fight Morgoth.

Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld... the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I would characterize Fingolfin's last fight as brave, but heroic? Vainglorious and foolish, rather; at best the sort of empty valor displayed in a Japanese banzai charge. Just suicide dressed up as courage. It accomplished nothing and cost the Noldor their king.- the sort of ofermod Tolkien condemned in Beorhtnoth and Beowulf.

[Mithalwen]

How did they fight to the drop of other people's blood? Beren was set an unfair quest which he did not ask for or want. Luthien for the love of Beren and his desire to remain faithful to his oath undertook the most dangerous mission any elf has undertaken ever. Other people helped them along the quest, because of the love they had for Luthien and Beren. They did not force anyone to fight for them. Finrod and Huan chose to help as did the 12 other elves.

Finrod did not choose he was held to HIS oath to Barahir. His companions did it for Finrod. All sacrificed for the benefit of a woman who can't even stand up to her own father, who lets herself be shut in a tree. Sacrificing everything for love is ludicrously adolescent and when others die needlessly, selfish.

[cellurdur]

Finrod did not choose he was held to HIS oath to Barahir. His companions did it for Finrod. All sacrificed for the benefit of a woman who can't even stand up to her own father, who lets herself be shut in a tree. Sacrificing everything for love is ludicrously adolescent and when others die needlessly, selfish.

So Finrod was held to his oath, but Beren was not? They both had a choice whether to keep their oaths or abandon them. Sometimes as Tolkien shows as with Beregond.

If I remember correctly Luthien escaped from the dungeon and went off to save Beren. People sacrifice and are sacrificed everyday for much less than love. Personally if you are going to sacrifice yourself then 'love' is a much better reason than gold or land. Nor is it a problem when those that love you join in the quest. It seems we will never be in agreement about this.

[Mithalwen]

No I am saying that he went out of obligation not choice. He didn't go because he thought it was a good idea or worthwhile or for love. Beren fulfilling his oath was for his own benefit. Noone else benefitted and many suffered and died . Compares very unfavourably to Frodo who deliberately tries to prevent his friends joining him on a hopeless quest. I have no problem with people sacrificing themselves for love if they are idiotic enough to do so, it is sacrificing others for it I object to. Kingdoms fell, many died so Beren and Luthien could satisfy their mutual lust. Better they sacrifice their "love" than even one other life. That might have been heroic.

[cellurdur]

No I am saying that he went out of obligation not choice. He didn't go because he thought it was a good idea or worthwhile or for love. Beren fulfilling his oath was for his own benefit. Noone else benefitted and many suffered and died . Compares very unfavourably to Frodo who deliberately tries to prevent his friends joining him on a hopeless quest. I have no problem with people sacrificing themselves for love if they are idiotic enough to do so, it is sacrificing others for it I object to. Kingdoms fell, many died so Beren and Luthien could satisfy their mutual lust. Better they sacrifice their "love" than even one other life. That might have been heroic.

Finrod had a choice whether to break his oath or stick by it. The same as Belegrond did. Finrod made the choice to keep his oath.

Beren did not need to fulfill his oath to gain any benefit for himself. Luthien had already declared that she would stick with him no matter what.

'But on either road I will go with you, and our doom shall be alike.'

Fulfilling his oath gave Beren nothing, but he felt compelled as an honourable man to try and fulfill his oath or die in the attempt.

Beren too tried to protect Luthien from the dangers of Morgoth and left her.

'Then Beren being torn between his oath and his love, and knowing Luthien to be now safe, arose one morning before the sun, and committed her to the care of Huan; then in great anguish he departed whilst she still slept on the grass.'

Beren gives up having a life with Luthien, his love, to try and fulfill the oath though he is almost certain to die. He is not doing this for anything he can gain, but to be a man of his word.

'Thrice now I curse my oath to Thingol' he said ' And I would rather that he had slain me in Menegorth, rather than I should bring you under the shadow of Morgoth'.

If you have no problem with people sacrificing themselves for love then why do you have a problem with Finrod's companions doing the same thing or even Finrod.

Beren and Luthien never forced anyone to die for them. People helped them, because they loved them. Huan and Finrod and the other elves. However, you would call them idiotic.

[Galadriel55]

I would characterize Fingolfin's last fight as brave, but heroic? Vainglorious and foolish, rather; at best the sort of empty valor displayed in a Japanese banzai charge. Just suicide dressed up as courage. It accomplished nothing and cost the Noldor their king.- the sort of ofermod Tolkien condemned in Beorhtnoth and Beowulf.

Yes, heroic. Is there anything heroic that's not suicidal? You can't be a hero unless you take great risks and (potentially) give up all you have, including your life, for your cause. Fingolfin utterly despaired and was definitely desperate, which makes him somewhat suicidal, but suicide is not what he had in mind when he changed Thangorodrim. It was not "I want to die now, so let's arrange for Morgoth to kill me. I'll look good, but it's not like I have any chance against him". It was more like "Have we not done everything that's possible to defeat him? Mandos' profecy must be coming true, and we'll come to complete destruction. I hate Morgoth! I'm in complete despair! There's no way out, no solution! Nothing we can do will be any good!"