What if Gollum was killed

[Rose Cotton]

" It's a pitty Bilbo didn't slay that foul creature when he had the chance."
What would have happened if Gollum had been killed by Bilbo?
What do you think?

[ElanorGamgee]

Well, Frodo and Sam may never have made it into Mordor at all. Even if they did, Frodo would have claimed the Ring as his own and either the Nazgûl would have got it from him or Sam would have to kill Frodo and probably himself in the process to destroy the Ring.

[Rose Cotton]

If that had happened I think it would have been so sad.
Just think of poor Sam perishing with his master as he tries to get Frodo to destoy the ring. I start to cry just thinking about it. smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif
Now I'm really glad Bilbo had so much pitty.
THANK YOU BILBO!!!!

[Kalimac]

The effects could go back even further than that - there's that bit in "The Shadow of the Past" where Gandalf says something to the effect of "You may be sure that Bilbo took so little lasting harm from the Ring because he began his ownership of it so, with Pity." There's a pretty serious implication in there that if Bilbo had killed Gollum, he would have been replicating Gollum's murder of Deagol, with all the attendant complications that that brought about. Gollum killed Deagol in cold blood - his first act as owner/potential owner of the Ring, and Gandalf hints that the first act of every new owner will color his subsequent life greatly - set the tone, so to speak. If Bilbo had killed Gollum in cold blood - and that's what it would have been, regardless of Gollum's intentions, since Gollum could not see him - I don't believe he would have been able to forget it; Bilbo was too honorable to tell himself for long that it was the only thing he could have done. He would have been haunted by remorse and the Ring would have taken him over much more quickly - he would have had to compensate for his guilt by loving and justifying his right to the Ring, the same as Gollum did.

In which case, he might not have even stayed in Bag End long on his return; he would have wanted to be alone with the Ring only, and the malice with which he had begun his ownership would doubtless make him very unpopular among all the hobbits, and for good reason. Gandalf might have been able to stop him, or figure out what was happening before Bilbo went wandering off somewhere far away - my guess is that if he had, he would have tried to get Bilbo to Rivendell double quick and then try to persuade him to give up the Ring. If he wouldn't give it up - they may have had to take it from him, with all the horrible effects this would have had on poor Bilbo. From all this, rumor would probably have Sauron about then that the Ring was found, and a totally different fellowship would have been formed, but whether they would succeed or not would have been entirely unrelated to hobbits, who would probably have suffered all the earlier at the hands of Saruman, as creatures with a rich land and few defenses, but with no Scouring afterwards.

It's implied that it didn't take Gollum very long to succumb and be driven away from his village once he had the Ring - a few years at most. It probably would have been the same for Bilbo. In that case, the Ring would have left Hobbiton before Frodo was born, or while he was a toddler, so he would never have been involved and possibly never even met Sam (who without Bilbo and Frodo around would probably have stayed at home all his life and become a second edition of the Gaffer). Merry and Pippin would probably have been much the same as they were at the beginning, but of course with Saruman in the background who knows how long their fun would have lasted.

[Rose Cotton]

WOW! Who knew it could have that much affect? WOW. THANKS BILBO FOR HAVING PITY!!

[Mirkgirl]

I agree with most of it, but I'd even go futher.... the effect would be much more immediate..... for sure he won't get to finish the adventure..... I'm sure he'd run away right after getting out,as he'd be to scared /of Gandalf mostly/ to get back to his companions

[Birdland]

Good take on it, Kalimac!

It's always been my theory that Hobbits were created by Iluvatar as a kind of "secret weapon", so to speak. Good, gentle, unambitious people, who only wanted to be left alone, and who were too small to be taken seriously by the other, mightier races of Middle Earth.

Can you think of a better type of being to become the guardian of something so dangerous as the Ring? Even Gollum had enough Halfling spirit in him to not try to wield the One Ring, but only keep it hidden away to adore. What other Race in Middle Earth would have had a similar reaction?

So when Melkor introduced the discord into the Music, the One just smiled, and added a faint, simple refrain, that very few would hear...

[alaklondewen]

I'm so glad you started this one, Rose. I've had this on my mind for a while.

I don't think Bilbo would have ever gone back to the company after killing Gollum. Who knows what would have happened to the fellow? It would have been a sad and terrible thing. I think when Bilbo showed Gollum mercy, he (Bilbo) gained something in himself. He became stronger and more confident, and since that scene he started to take over the leadership role. How horrible he could have become by killing the creature. smilies/frown.gif I also wonder how long it would have taken Sauron to recognize the Hobbits as people. Didn't Gollum tell him (or his servants) of the name Baggins of the Shire?

[Rose Cotton]

Good Point Birdland. There are other signs of Hobbits being secret weapons. In the 'Hobbit' Tolkien is always talking about the talents of hobbit. About how quiet they can be and how they have very good sences. Not as good as elves but better than men and dwarves. So my question was " If these Hobbits are so talented why are they all hidding in little holes?"
Because they were being saved for the moment when their gifts would be the most usefull. I also think their isolation gave them traits they wouldn't have picked up otherwise. I just can't think of anything at the moment.

I thought of somthing else.
What if Gollum screamed when he was killed by Bilbo. Gobblins would have followed the sound. And Bilbo was in a small passage way. Even if he was invisable he would have been trampled to death or discovered and killed. So he might not have even gotten out of the Misty Mountains.

[Jessica Jade]

wow, this is a really great thread! Well spoken, everyone! Some very good points and interpretations. I had never really considered the fact that Gollum's fate was very nearly Bilbo's, had he killed the creature. If i've learned one thing from reading LOTR, it's about forgiveness ...well, not exactly forgiveness, but pity...and moral strength, and how it's not right to harm anyone in any situation, regardless of what harm they can do to you. Gandalf's quote is excellent: "Many who live deserve death, some who die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety." Many times while reading LOTR, i thought that if I were Frodo or Sam or Bilbo, i most surely would have killed Gollum... and now i know that if i were ever in a situation similar to the likes of theirs,(literally or figuratively), there is no honor in hurting anyone...the honorable thing is to have mercy and "not to strike without need." Ok, enough babbling from me. smilies/redface.gif

[Altariel]

If Frodo had taken the Ring to Mordor, but Gollum had been killed, the Ring would not have been destroyed. Frodo would have claimed the Ring for his own, like he was going to at the end of RotK. Gollum wouldn't have been there to steal it away from him and fall into the Cracks of Doom. So, one of two things would have happened:

1. Frodo would declare himself Lord of the Rings, and he would be... for a little while. But Sauron would probably track him down and take his Ring back, and Frodo would die a slow, painful death for trying to usurp Sauron's power, and for hiding the Ring from Sauron. Then Sauron would have his One Ring again, and he would "cover Middle Earth in a second darkness." smilies/frown.gif

OR

2. Sam would realize that, in order to destroy the Ring, he would have to either take the Ring from Frodo and throw it into the Cracks of Doom, or... failing that... push Frodo in. smilies/frown.gif

Hmmm... how very depressing.... Now I see why Tolkien decided to keep Gollum alive.

[Rose Cotton]

The question now is:
If the fates managed to get the story as far as the Cracks of Doom. What would Sam have done?

On one hand I think he would never disobay his beloved master. He could cry and plead but in the end Frodo's word would rule.

On the other, perhaps Sam would relize Frodo wasn't himself and that it was either Frodo or Middle earth.

Or he could try and take the ring from Frodo and throw it in himself perhaps with a suicide affect. And for the most part, even if Sam didn't try to throw himself in the fire with the ring, just the fact he'd be taking the ring from a totaly controlled Frodo would be absalute suicide.

What do you think poor Sam would do?
smilies/frown.gif

[mordor136]

even if they somehow made it to mount doom sam couldnt possibly take the ring knowing it would destroy frodo. the quest would wholly fail.

[Altariel]

I agree that trying to take the Ring from Frodo probably would be suicide. He might realize that it's either Frodo or Middle-Earth, but I think Sam loves his master too much to go against his word.

[Rose Cotton]

smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif
That's realy sad.
Think of the tale it would make:

As he reaches the Cracks of Doom Frodo Baggins is entirely corupted by the One Ring and claims it his own.
Faced with the choise between his beloved master and his home Middle Earth Samwise Gamgee is forced by his love for Frodo to choose the path that forever destoys Middle Earth. smilies/frown.gif
I'm so glad it never came to that.

And yet..............
I can't help but think Sam would find some way to save Middle Earth.
I know!

When Frodo claims the ring, Sam realizes what is happening and pleads with Frodo(who is still invisible) to cast the ring into the fire. But Frodo only starts to make for the exist of the cave.
Sam goes into a long debate with himself over what he should do. He thinks about how much he is ment to look after and care for his master no mater what the odds. But then Sam starts to remember his other friends Merry and Pippin. And Strider, Legolas, and Gimli. He remembers the Lady Galadriel and Master Elrond and Mr Bilbo. Gandalf. Then back even farther to his father the Gaffer. He recalls happy days in the Shire among the gardens of Baggend. Of the days he spent with Frodo and all his friends and family. He remembers what Frodo was like before the ring and thinks about Frodo now that he is possesed by the ring. Possesed?
Sam is brought back to the present. He relizes that That was not his master he just saw. Mr Frodo would never do anything as cruel as he has done lately. The little hobbit was now wholy the ring. And Mr Frodo was trapped inside. For all Middle Earth and for his masters own sake he had to somehow get his master back. Somhow destroy the ring.
Sam runs out of the cave and can see where his master is. For even though he's invisable he is making alot of noise. Sam runs and tackles Frodo and because he was just fingering the ring on his finger it falls off a few feet away. Frodo tries to fight back but Sam has pinned him on his back. "Get off me fool!" says Frodo."I must have the ring."
"Sorry master, Sorry but I can't let you have it. Your not yourself. Let me get rid of it master. Please Mr Frodo." replys Sam who starts to cry with the effort of defying Frodo of what he most wants.
"You horrible theif! You traitor! I trusted you."
"Master, It's me your Sam. I'd never abandon you. But that horrible ring is evil. Don't you remember Gandalf's words. Dear old Gandalf, if only he were here. Master listen to me." For a long time Sam stares into Frodo's eyes. Cries from far off are heard from Sauron's forces being sent to Mt. Doom. Sam knows time is running out. "I want to help you. I care for you. You are my best friend in all of middle earth!!"
Suddenly Frodo stops struggling still looking hard at Frodo. Deep inside him the real Frodo awakens and hears Sam's voice. With great effort Frodo says "Sam.....Sam hurry..... I must have the ring....no, I must destoy it.....but it is presious to me....take it.....no, must have it....destroy it Sam.....no, we want it.....I will try and stop you, run, quick, trow it into the fire......I shall be king....now! take it! now!
Without thinking Sam haistily picks up the ring and runs for the Cracks of Doom. He hears Frodo starting to run after him.
"NO WE MUST HAVE THE PRESIOUS!!!"
Sam reaches the fire and hesitates for a moment to throw it in.'It is such a nice ring after all'. But then he hears Frodo and quickly throws the ring in. Frodo tries to jump after it but Sam holds him back getting very beaten up in the prosses. Then Frodo comes to his whole self and he and Sam apologise to eachother repetedly and then Mordor and Sauron falls and the rest of the story happens pretty much the same. Exept without the song of the nine fingered ring bearer.

I know, not a very good story. But it's better then the fall of Middle Earth. smilies/wink.gif

[Rose Cotton]

I'm glad Gollum wasn't killed. The Lord of the Rings just wouldn't have been the same without him. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Jessica Jade]

Ah! I found a really good quote for this topic!!

Pity? It was pity that stayed his hand. And he has been well-rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the RIng so. With pity.
Gandalf in The Fellowship of the Ring, The Shadow of the Past page 58

Hey, i really recommend that you guys come to The Meaning of Pity and Mercy (http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000605) thread. If you like this thread, you might want to participate in the discussion that i started! Please? smilies/smile.gif

**HOORAY! I'M A WIGHT NOW!!!!!! "BOW TO ME IN ALL MY WIGHTNESS!"!!** smilies/biggrin.gif

[Thulorongil]

I'll always stay with the wisdom of Gandalf- that every person and event has a final purpose in the outcome of what they are involved in, even not expected or wanted. One of the best examples ever of that is the one we are discussing.