Do you wish gollum had lived?

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I like the twist at the end of the book but I wish that Gollum had lived. The ending is as it is and I'm glad I can't change it but I wish an alternate ending was that Frodo threw the ring in when he had the chance and that gollum had lived and had rehabilitated now that the ring was destroyed.

I felt really sorry for him when he was with Sam and Frodo and he was gently pawing at Frodo and remembering when he was a hobbit (or whatever else he was before the ring came to him)and then Sam accuses him of sneaking. I also felt sorry for him in The Hobbit when him and Bilbo were doing the riddles and he was recalling childhood memories before the ring.

Does anybody agree with me?
What do you wish had happened to Gollum? Tell me your own endings.

Thanks.

[ November 30, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Birdland]

Welcome to the Downs, GK Willie!

It's interesting to speculate what an "unpossesed" Gollum would have been like, but I think poor Smeagol was beyond redemption at that point. He apparently wasn't the most admirable of people even before he carried the Ring. After all, he murdered his own kin just at the mere sight of it.

Had Frodo been able to let go of the Ring enough to throw it into the fire himself, I have no doubt that Gollum would have thrown himself in after it, the Ring calling him to his own death as it fell into the pit.

Gollum had owned the Ring longer than anyone, besides Sauron; he was fated to live, and die, with it.

[-Imrahil-]

Yes, I agree. His fate was tied to the ring, he was so far gone that he would live and die for the ring.

[ November 30, 2002: Message edited by: -Imrahil- ]

[the mortal elf]

I'm not sure if I wish he would have lived or not. I sure wouldn't want him around, being the nasty little "sneaker" that he is, even though I do feel sorry for him. When the ring was destroyed (in your alternate ending), I don't think Gollum could ever be rid of the ring's power. He would be in constant sorrow and misery, if the mere loss of the ring didn't kill him in the first place. Plus, if you'll remember, he's over 500 years old, so without the ring he's going to have big age problems... smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Amanaduial the archer]

Welcome Willie!

I think Gollum had had the ring to long. Sometimes, when Im just reading over the ending, it seemed unfair. Its like, couldnt Frodo have helped Gollum? If he was given enough kindness, wouldnt he have turned from the darkness? But even when they gave him kindness, he no longer knew how to repay it. The ring twisted his mind; he would have gone even more mad without the ring.

Sad really.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Thanks for the replies and thanks for the welcomes.

[ November 30, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Durelin]

I really liked the ending! I found it so funny! I don't know, I'm wierd. Have you heard of "the shinnin'?" hehe smilies/biggrin.gif Liked that one, if you follow me. (like that too)

[kharank]

I thought the ending rocked! Gollum is by far the coolest character, because he is for all intents and purposes one of the 'bad guys', but you really feel sorry for him at places. I was really pleased that Tolkien gave him such a spine-tingling final act, and I think that going out with style the way he did was better than slowly fading away, or going into the West.

[Kiara]

Everyone on the Downs is really "in" to Gollum right now, have you noticed? You should check out the other threads (one of them was all about evil, free-will, and fate and how our little "sneaker" was involved in those themes).

[dragoneyes]

I'm not particularly 'into' Gollum (I'm such a rebel smilies/wink.gif) but I do think that was a fitting end for him, it's not that I think he deserved to die in a boiling lake 'o' lava (sorry, shrek reference there) but no other way would really have suited him, if you get my meaning.

[Orual]

No, precious, it wouldn't have done for Gollum to have made it. I mean, if Frodo had to leave Middle-earth because being in possession of the Ring had changed him too much, Gollum certainly would have fared much worse. And can you really imagine Gollum leaving with the other Ring-bearers? He bore the Ring too irresponsibly. He'd be in limbo, neither being able to leave with the others nor stay comfortably in Middle-earth. I think that in all justice and fairness, to Gollum and to everybody else, the ending was fit. Granted, I would've prefered it if they had "all lived happily ever after, to the end of their days" instead of this "realism" stuff, but for the most part the ending was perfect. (Okay, so "perfect" wasn't the word I was looking for. So I cried my eyes dry when I finished RotK. So what? I'm trying to be agreeable!)

~*~Orual~*~

[edit: my grammar suffered. "to" irresponsibly indeed.]

[ November 30, 2002: Message edited by: Orual ]

[Arwen Imladris]

No, for one thing, he deserved to die. I know the Gandalf quote and everything, but it would not have bben safe to have him hanging around. If the ring had been destroyed and he had not, I think that he would have killed Frodo, or Sam, or both. If not, then he would have likely lived the rest of his life in misery. he was too far gone.

[Kalimac]

In a word, no. Call me hard-hearted, but I was completely on Sam's side during that whole "Three's Company" episode in TTT where they're traveling with Gollum. It was hard to shake that off even after realizing how Frodo's (and Bilbo's) pity saved everyone's life in the end. But no, Gollum had been around far longer than was natural and living for (or dying with) his Precious seems to have been the only fate that he wanted for himself. If he had been alive afterwards it couldn't have been for long, and he would have been even more miserable - if such a thing were possible - until he died.

[Nils]

If Gollum had not died, Sauron would have recovered his ring and the quest would have been lost. There is no way anyone could willingly cast the ring into Mt. Doom. The only thing that would have happened is that either Frodo or Gollum would have faced off with Sauron and been defeated.

If Sauron were to recover the ring in such a contest, I believe that would have been worse than falling into the lava.

[Baran]

Do you people who say that Gollum "deserved" what he got quiestion Gandalf's wisdom?
The reason I don't like Sam is that I think Gollum could actually have been cured if it hadn't been for him.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

BARAN, THANK YOU!!!

I've been waiting for someone to say that. I totally agree. I think that if Sam had been more welcoming and had allowed gollum a chance, gollum would have felt wanted. I think that for gollum to feel wanted and to have a friend would have overcome his desire for the ring.

[Baran]

I thought all the Sam fans would kill me instantly for critisizing him (have a feeling it's more to come though).
I never felt anything but pity for poor Gollum, and believe he could have been saved... With the power of love! smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/wink.gif
Everytime Sam was accusing him I got angry, he was bringing forth the evil Gollum!
In my ending Sam would throw himself into the fire with the ring, while Frodo came back to Hobbiton with Frodo, for eventually going together to Valinor
smilies/evil.gif

[ December 01, 2002: Message edited by: Baran ]

[dragoneyes]

Frodo coming back with Frodo? That would be interesting. But, anyway, Frodo could not even be cured by Sam's love, and everyone else's. Even when he went to Valinor, we don't actually know if he was cured then (though I would like think he was smilies/smile.gif). It would have taken a whole world of love to cure Gollum and even then he would've had the guilt of the murder he commited (plus hating the sun would've bee a bit of a downside while in Hobbiton)

[Birdland]

Baran and Willie - You do bring up a good point. If Sam had been "kinder" or at least more trusting of Gollum, would he have led Shelob to them? After all, he did use Sam's "nastiness" as a rationalization to call the spider down upon them.

But in the end the lure of the Ring would have been too much for him, no matter how kind Frodo was to him. If nothing else, he would have grown to resent Frodo's pity, as people who are pitied often do. A case of "no good deed goes unpunished", so to speak.

Frodo's kindness does seem to have had one effect. Gollum didn't try to kill him outright when they got to Mt. Doom. He "only" wanted to take the Ring.

[Orual]

Not a bad point, guys, but I disagree. I doubt that all the power of love in the world could've really changed Gollum. He was way too far under the power of the Ring. True, Sam wasn't exactly going the extra mile to be kind to Gollum, but I personally don't think that he had to. He was never cruel to Gollum, just a little cross and impatient. Still, an interesting thing to ponder...

Heh, lol, Baran! Rowf! My bark is worse than my bite. I'll always defend my Sam, but I'm used to arguing about his merit. smilies/rolleyes.gif My friend likes ARAGORN, and is telling me how unrealistic Sam is...oh yeah. That'll work. (Just a little o-t rant there...)

~*~Orual~*~

[TealDude3]

I don't think Gollum was really a bad guy. The ring itself was what was diteriorating his judgment. The very first time he looked at the ring it took him. When Smeagol would feel guilty for Deagol's murder, the ring would make it seem ok.
"It was my birthday-present. It should have been mine. My precious."

But really, I believe Smeagol could have been cured from the rings effects. There was still a "cornor of his mind" that was still Smeagol. But 500 years is a long time. Even after 60 years of not having the ring, no change came over Gollum. The time it would take to cure Gollum, he would have died of old age or pass into shadow.
I think death for Gollum was the best thing for him. As it is said in the book, he hated the sun and the moom. He even hated his precious.
But I do feel that chance (or fate) was too cruel to Smeagol. It seems that everything we have ever known about him was misery. Gollum is a very sad creature.

[Arwen Imladris]

Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo’s hand. Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo?

I think that this quote is true. It would have been wrong for anyone to kill gollum. I would not have killed him but I think that it is totally different to "wish that he had lived". It is not right to "give it to them" but, after the fact there is no need to regret it if the deserved it.

[Baran]

It is not right to "give it to them" but, after the fact there is no need to regret it if the deserved it.


But I don't think Gollum deserved it. Bilbo would have been exactly the same if Gandalf hadn't persuaded him to pass along the ring to Frodo. Gollum was evil because of the ring, it was not his fault.

[NicktheOrc]

Guess who's back... back again... NicktheOrc's back... tell a friend...
Eh, Gollum said that if the Ring was destroyed, he would "Die into the dust". smilies/cool.gif

[Sauron999]

Its like, couldnt Frodo have helped Gollum? If he was given enough kindness, wouldnt he have turned from the darkness?
No i don't think that Frodo could have helped Gollum. Gollum was nearly completely evil. He hated everything, the ring, himself, and Frodo too. I don't think that this could be cured by all kindness and love in the world. Gollum only desired the ring, it was occupying all of his mind.
Let's say that Frodo could throw the ring into the fire and Gollum came "too late", then i think he would kill Frodo and Sam in his wrath and desperation, or at least try to. After that he would probably cast himself down into the fire.
Or he wouldn't even try to kill the two hobbits, but in a madness jump after the ring to safe it.

Anyway, if he was saved and the ring was destroyed, he would die soon. Bilbo only possessed the ring for .... I think 60 years, and after he had given the ring away, age took effect on him pretty quickly. (at least i think so smilies/smile.gif )

I don't think that Sam being kinder to Gollum would have changed anything. Maybe Gollum would have a guilty conscience for sending the two to Shelob, but he isn't very sad when he sees Shelob attacking Frodo while he is trying to kill Sam. He has just promised (Stinker to Slinker) not to hurt Frodo, but he doesn't mind sacrificing Frodo to Shelob, so why should he mind sacrificing Sam too, even if he would have been kinder to him?

Of course, Gollum is a very tragical character and i also pity him at some parts of the story, but all in all he is downright evil. Nevertheless, Frodo would not have succeeded without his help. Poor wrench!

[Durelin]

He deserved death! I'm glad he died! And he died a hero too! smilies/biggrin.gif Sorta.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I do not think that he was completly evil. Gollum usually was just tricked by the ring. And the reason he killed to get the ring was because of the overwhelming desire to posess it. Gollum did not hate everything. Remeber, there was a part of gollum's mind that was still gollum (or I should say Smeagol) and I think that gollum did want to change, even though it would take long. When he didn't have the ring, there were parts of him that showed that hadn't in ages. Also, even though he was quite bitter, when he didn't have the ring anymore, I think that a very (ok, not very but extremely) slow rehabilitation process began in him. You say that he hated the ring. Yes he did. He loved it and yet he hated it. This is the one thing that tore him apart. He loved it like a drug- he was addicted. But he loathed it. He had an instinctive hatred for the ring, and I think that's why he became kinder at times after he lost the ring. He realized how much he hated it and wanted to let it go but it was so hard. It was like a drug to him and very hard to quit, but even though it may not look like it, I believe that he was trying to quit; to let the ring go.

If you want to hear more about this topic, there is a thread about Gollum vs the other hobbits. Go here web page (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002527)

[willkill4food]

If gollum had lived, would he have sailed west with the other ring bearers (sp?)?..i doubt the elves would have let him..

I always did feel like Sam was too judgemental of Gollum, but I always assumed that gollum had been planning to kill frodo and sam from the first momment he was bound to them...Sam was just angry at gollum because of his love for Frodo, he wanted to protect frodo, and sam knew of all the stories bilbo told of gollum, and he knew that gollum oculd not be trusted...I doubt that anyone could have changed gollum's dark half, and Sam's kindness would not either..

-willkill

[Sauron999]

Well, of course we learn that Gollum is not wholly evil. But i wouldn't say that he was trying to let the ring go. That would have been impossible for him. He always wanted to bring Frodo and Sam to Shelob, this was his main plan. And than he would all show them, that's what he's thinking.
He even killed Deagol just by the desire for it, which is mostly the influence of the ring, but to become overwhelmed by the desire for it (and I mean as fast as Smeagol was overwhelmed) shows that someone he was already evil in his mind, or at least partly evil.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Hmm….Gollum is certainly one of my favourite characters, and definitely one of the most interesting. But I think that Gollum’s death was essential to the book, since no one, not Frodo, not Sam and definitely not Gollum had the power to throw the ring into the cracks of doom. Albeit, I WISH that it was that annoying Sam who fell into the volcano, but I think that Gollum falling into the volcano, this destroying the ring, albeit by accident, was the only way he could redeem himself. Gollum was very twisted indeed, but look at Bilbo. He had the ring for 60 odd years, and he was beginning to turn into a Gollum like character, or at least he was showing signs of possibly developing into one. Smeagol may have murdered his best friend to get to the ring, but does this compare the deed of Isildur in not taking the ring, and thus wrecking the best chance EVER of destroying Sauron, thus bringing peace to Middle-Earth. And remember, this was done after he had just taken the ring off Sauron.

[Sauron999]

Smeagol may have murdered his best friend to get to the ring, but does this compare the deed of Isildur in not taking the ring, and thus wrecking the best chance EVER of destroying Sauron, thus bringing peace to Middle-Earth. And remember, this was done after he had just taken the ring off Sauron.

I'd say that Isildur was overwhelmed by the ring just because he had taken the ring off Sauron recently. Sauron was more or less at the height of his power when he fell, and so was the ring. That could explain why Isildur didn't "want" to throw it into the Cracks of Doom: The ring wouldn't let him.
And at that time the wise knew that Sauron had created the ring to rule over all the other rings, but they didn't know about it's effect on men/elves.... or did they? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
But as far as I know no one had ever worn the ring but Sauron, so they couldn't know about it's effects. Maybe they didn't even know that Sauron would be destroyed with the ring, though Isildur must have known that the destroying would at least lessen Saurons power. But, as i said, the ring had much more power (in my opinion) than later on when Bilbo or Frodo got it.

[Orual]

Isildur. Pah. Elrond should've pushed him into the Cracks of Doom when he had the chance! ^_^

[Baran]

Why did Gollum have no hesitations in killing Deagol, but wouldn't kill Frodo?

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Yes, that whimp Elrond. Here he is ripping on humans and calling them week when he could have pushed Isildur in or at least taken the ring by force and destroyed it. If he was so great why didn't he do that. And does he forget who he is? He's half human himself. What a dope.

Edited for some swearing.

[ June 17, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Kalimac]

Baran, not to be too cynical or anything but a lot of it probably had to do with the fact that Deagol didn't have a loyal manservant standing by, ready to defend him; also the fact that while Deagol didn't know what he had, Frodo did, and was much less likely to let Gollum take a peek.

As for everything else...Gollum is a victim of mixed emotions, to put it at its mildest. It's true that he had no hesitation about killing Deagol but that was in the first flush of seeing the Ring - now it's five hundred years later, his life has been both prolonged and utterly ruined by this thing; it's the difference between someone enjoying his first shot of alcohol and looking at the bottle twenty years and several twelve-step programs later. He wants it, but doesn't feel quite the straightforward joy that he once did. Seeing Frodo and Sam reminds him of what he gave up, and he both envies and resents that.

I still maintain that Gollum would never have been able to live after the Ring was destroyed anyway. As for reforming...well, maybe. But it's a HUGE gamble to take on Frodo's part; sure, maybe he'll reform and help me, and maybe he'll kill me, 50/50. Hey, it's not like the fate of the world depends on it...oh wait, it does.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Good question. Remember the points that I made. Gollum killed Deagol because of the overwhelming desire to posses the ring and partly because the ring clouded his judgement. He was new to the ring then. I said that gollum wanted to let go of the ring even though it didn't look like it. I think that it was deep down, in the part of gollum's mind that was still gollum, that part wanted to let go. His slow rehabilitation might have helped too. Maybe, he was being cured of the ring, if even a little. He also got compassion from Frodo, and Frodo was the first person to give him a chance ever. I think that gollum really wouldn't kill him because of his healing, but maybe because he respected Frodo. Also, he felt sorry for Frodo himself. Gollum was once a ring bearer himslef, and he had it the longest besides sauron. He knew very well the struggle that Frodo was experiencing. Frodo gave gollum pity and compassion, and a chance. In return, gollum gave Frodo obedience and guidance to some degree, and sympathy and compassion.

Now that is the brighter side of the answer. Here's the darker. Maybe Gollum was waiting for a chance. I think he could have wanted to build his trust on Frodo, and then trap him. Think of Shelob.

There are other points as well, but I don't feel like saying them all. And it sucks all the fun out of these topics when you say all the points and no one else has a chance to.

To see a similar discussion, go look for the thread I showed in my 2nd to last reply.

[Orual]

I agree with Kalimac. Gollum didn't attack Frodo because he knew that if he did, Sam would be right there, ready to do anything he needed to in order to save Frodo. There was nobody else there when he killed Deagol.

Though, after all, it's not like he didn't make an honest effort. He led them right into Shelob's Lair. Though I think that Willie's right, and he and Frodo did understand each other to a certain degree, Gollum's first instinct was to get back his precious. So I think that it was more fear of getting killed himself than real sympathy toward Frodo.

~*~Orual~*~

I think I typed it all right, but if I didn't, forgive me; I sprained my wrist and have a big bulky bandage that impairs my typing.

[Durelin]

I agree with Kalimac on the question but I also think it was partly because Shelob was waiting for Gollum to bring her meal, he would get in pretty big trouble if he killed them. He couldn't exactly kill Frodo and not Sam. But of course, now that I think about it, if he killed Frodo he would have the ring, so Shelob should be no problem, right? Hmmmm...well, I just killed my thought. smilies/biggrin.gif I'm so smart! I can kill my own thoughts! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Sithren]

hello? is this working? i'm lost! terrible lost! i need to read the books again...at the moment I'm looking for Mortal Elf...you there?

[Sithren]

am i in books?

[Sithren]

((uses her most regal voice)) Mortal Elf, darling, please answer me. ((her plain voice)) now...

[Sithren]

anyways...Gollum deserved to die, his time was up and he was a pest.

[the mortal elf]

Ignore those last two posts. A bit of confusion.

[Baran]

Baran, not to be too cynical or anything but a lot of it probably had to do with the fact that Deagol didn't have a loyal manservant standing by, ready to defend him; also the fact that while Deagol didn't know what he had, Frodo did, and was much less likely to let Gollum take a peek.

It seems like you have forgot the struggle Smeagol had with himself. There was one evil part (don't know their English name) who had no hesitations killing Frodo and Sam for the ring, ,and you had the "new" part that wouldn't kill Frodo partly because of the promise he gave and partly because Frodo was nice to him. They decided to go to Shelob as a compromice between he two personalitites. If the evil had been stronger Smeagol would probably have killed both Frodo and Sam at an earlier opportunity, if the good one had been stronger Smeagol would probably not have led them to Shelob at all. I think the good Smeagol would have been stronger if it hadn't been for Sam.
If I don't remember very wrongly Smeagol almost told them what he was up to somewhere in the stairs, will see if I can find the quote later.

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: Baran ]

[Baran]

I found the quote, it's in "the stairs of Cirith Ongul". I'm translating it from Norwegian so it will differ quite a bit from the original version.


Sam and Frodo are sleeping in the stairs when Guollum returns after talking to Hutula.
And this is how Gollum found them several hours later when he came back, crawling and creeping down the path from the dark above. Sam sat with his back against the cliff; his head was resting against his shoulder, and he breathed heavily. Frodo was lying in his lap, sound asleep. One of Sams brown hands was lying over his white forehead, and the other lay on his masters chest. Both faces were peacefull.
Gollum watched them. A strange expression crossed his thin, hungry face. His gleaming eyes faded, became pale and grey, old and weary. It looked like he twisted in a sudden pain, and he turned away, peered up towards the mountain pass, shock his head like something inside of him was discussing fiercely. Then he came back slowly reached out a shaking hand. Carefuly, carefuly he touched Frodos knee - but the touch was almost a caress. If any of the sleeping had seen him there for a short moment, they would have thought they saw an old, weary Hobbit, shrinked of all the years who had taken him far past the time measured him, beyond friends and relatives and the fields and streems of youth. An old, pitiful being.
But at the touch Frodo moved and bursted something silently in his sleep. Sam woke up at once. The first thing he saw was Gollum - who thought he was "fingering" with his master. "you there!" he said, with a gruffy voice. "what are you doing?"
"nothing, nothing," Gollum said silently. "kind master!"
But where have you been - sneaking away and sneaking back again, old scoundrel?"
Gollum pulled away, and it shined a green flash under his heavy eyelids. Almost like a spider he looked; his eyes bulging and he duobled up on his springy limbs. The short moment was forever past.

Bear in mind that this is a translation by me from the Norwegian book.

I think this proves Gollum was far from a 100% evil being, he had doubts about sending Frodo (not Sam, admittedly) to Hutula, and I actualy think there was hope for him. If it hadn't been for that Sam!

[Balin999]

Actually, your translation is quite correct.
I think this proves Gollum was far from a 100% evil being, he had doubts about sending Frodo (not Sam, admittedly) to Hutula, and I actualy think there was hope for him. If it hadn't been for that Sam!
I don't think that Gollum had doubts about sending Frodo to Shelob (if Hutula is the translation of Shelob), he only didn't want to hurt him. Gollum himself would never touch Frodo, that's why he led him to Shelob. The part where Gollum gently touches Frodo does show that Gollum wasn't wholly evil at all, but I think that he was far from cure of the ring. Maybe he could become "normal" again, but only after a long long time without the ring. But if the ring was destroyed, Gollum wouldn't have much time left. And if he saw the ring being thrown down into the fire, he would eventually get mad because of the loss of it.
As far as Sam is concerned, he was always suspicious and never too friendly to Gollum, so it's no wonder that Gollum didn't mind to hurt him or strangle him at all. But i don't think that it was Sams fault that Gollum wanted them to be killed.
After all, he was very lucky himself. He wanted the ring and pursued the fellowship since Moria, and suddenly there are only two left of it, who are depending on him. (could be a new thread in the forum maybe). He wouldn't attack the fellowship if there were still nine of them. but that has nothing to do with the subject smilies/smile.gif

[CornedBee]

Shelob is interesting, I think it's the only name that was translated freely. Shelob in English, Hutula in Norwegian, Kankra in German...

Smeagol was definitly not 100% evil, but I don't think he could have recovered. He was completly under the command of the ring, and THAT (together with his vow on the precious) was what held his bad side from overtaking the good side and killing Frodo. He would have had the chance when Sam was sleeping.

I think the ending is perfect. Smeagol did not deserve death (I don't think anyone in the book except Sauron and the ring wraithes deserve death), but it was kinda inevitable for him. No one could have willingly thrown the ring into the fire. Frodo could not throw it into his small fire in Hobbiton, and that was a long time before, with the morgul blade, Shelob's poison, tireness, longer ring-wearing and a much stronger ring (it was near Mt. Doom) now making the real destruction of the ring impossible. The ending as JRRT wrote is solved several problems: the one of Smeagol (kill him? let him live?) and the one of destroying the ring (as I said, impossible otherwise).
And it wouldn't have been appropriate for Sam to die. It would IMO been unfair.

That said I will sit back and listen to your responses.

[Elven Mistress]

I'm not sure if i'm getting off topic at all, but as i read the thread this one thought came to mind, rising high above all the others.
Someone said that Smeagol (Gollum) killed Deagol because of the ring's influence (or am i making this up...?) Well, anyway...he did it because of the ring. Now, let us say that Frodo or Sam had the strength to throw the ring into Mt. Doom. What then? The Ring - the thing that "controlled" Gollum would be gone forever. Slowly Smeagol would come out, and with a little compassion - and the weight of the ring lifted - i believe that Gollum really would have rehabilitated.

I think that the ONLY reason Gollum was how he was, was because of the ring. I believe if the ring was destroyed Gollum would realize everything he did and slowly recooperate.

[Jessica Jade]

I'm sure that everyone, at some time, wishes they could change one part about the story, or wonders what would have happened if...

In the end, I know that the story would not have been as powerful as it is without everything that happened in it. Gollum's death was inevitable- remember, the Ring does not truly have the power to create; it only stretches one's life and gives power according to the possesser's native strength. Gollum's life had been stretched beyond his mind's endurance, indeed like "butter scraped over too much bread," in a much worse way than Bilbo began to feel. Since the Ring was the only thing keeping him alive, it makes sense that he should die when the Ring does. In addition, the fact that it was Gollum who destroyed the Ring accidentally while fighting Frodo further illustrates the Ring's inescapable, seductive power- it shows that Frodo could not give up The Ring- at the very end of his arduous, perilous quest, he so very nearly failed. Later on, the lasting power of the Ring is further explored when Frodo experienced Ring-withdrawal,in which Gollum's death haunted him because he was not able to save him after all that had happened. Gollum was far beyond redemption, his mind was too shriveled, burned by his desire to possess The Ring.Basically, Gollum's death made lent the story much more power and irony, making the entire ending much more haunting. One of my favorite aspects of TOlkien is the bittersweet irony of it all--like Frodo says to sam at the end of the last chapter, "...when things are in danger, someone must give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them." I think that that is a recurrent theme or subtheme interwoven throughout the whole Middle Earth saga. I do not wish Gollum had lived. Every single event that happened, every nuance of emotion in the books- they all pertain to, and support the book's overall foundation: The Ring is powerful. Just how powerful? The nearly incomprehensible allure of the Ring is manifest in everything that took place in the novel. You see? The story is so tightly knit- everything has strings leading to everything else. If you change one thing about Tolkein's masterpiece, then the entire structure has been weakened, likely to collapse. Or, at best, become flimsy, conventional, and trite (like "happily ever after"). I cried so much at the novel's conclusion, when Frodo had to leave Middle Earth because he simply could not go on enjoying life in that world anymore, due to the nature of the evil he battled. I wished with all of my heart that he could heal, that he could be happy again, that he could be older and wiser, but still content, living in the Shire like he had before his ordeal. Yet, i know that the ending would not have been nearly as special and nearly as touching if not for the exact events that did happen. I believe that Tolkien wrote an ingenious, original masterpiece. I could never truly desire to change a word of it.

[Aragorn Husband of Arwen]

I don't really think I would have liked him to live. I mean at the end of every book, not every character should live.

On the other hand it would have been interesting, I wouldn't have minded seeing a offshoot of books about him. Maybe we would have seen "Gollum Lives" Instead of Frodo Lives. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Baran]

I don't think that Gollum had doubts about sending Frodo to Shelob

I think this proves he had doubts: It looked like he twisted in a sudden pain, and he turned away, peered up towards the mountain pass, shock his head like something inside of him was discussing fiercely.


I could never truly desire to change a word of it.

I wouldn't change anything in the book either, but I'm stil arguing that Gollum could have been saved.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Yes, I'm still arguing the same too Baran. Thanks once again for the backup smilies/smile.gif .

Jessica Jade, you said In the end, I know that the story would not have been as powerful as it is without everything that happened in it. Gollum's death was inevitable- remember, the Ring does not truly have the power to create; it only stretches one's life and gives power according to the possesser's native strength. Gollum's life had been stretched beyond his mind's endurance, indeed like "butter scraped over too much bread," in a much worse way than Bilbo began to feel. Since the Ring was the only thing keeping him alive, it makes sense that he should die when the Ring does.

That point, to me makes no sense at all. I mean I used to think the same thing; it sounded believeable, but the more I think about it, the more stupid it sounds. The ring provides long life so the ring-bearer's life is prolonged because of the ring. You say that the ring-bearer who's life is greatly prolonged should die if the ring is destroyed. It doesn't work out.

If having the ring on prolongs life, then having it off should take away some of that prolonged life. Or if that doesn't happen, which it didn't, then not having the ring in your posession should take away some of that prolonged life. But that does not happen. You see this shown in gollum's example. If the ring can only prolong life while you posess it, then not having it should make you die or rot quickly and then die, and gollum should have died a very long time ago if that were true, which it is not. So if the ring cannot prolong your life if you don't currently posess it, then what does it matter if it is destroyed? If it is destroyed, it can't prolong life, just like it can't prolong life when you don't posess it. So if it is destroyed, then why would it take away the time in the ring-bearer's life that ring prolonged? It wouldn't.

"the Ring does not truly have the power to create; it only stretches one's life and gives power according to the possesser's native strength." Right you are. But tell me this: Where the h*ll does it say the ring has the power to take away??? And maybe, it can take away power that it gave, but it can not take away life that it gave. If the ring could not take away life when the person lost it, then why could it when it was destroyed? It couldn't prevent the aging after the person loses posession but it couldn't take away life it gave. The only life it takes away when it is destroyed is Sauron's, and only because he bound his lifeforce into the ring. So when the ring dies, Suaron dies. Gollum would not have died since his life force was not bound to the ring.

You said, 'like "butter scraped over too much bread," in a much worse way than Bilbo began to feel. Since the Ring was the only thing keeping him alive, it makes sense that he should die when the Ring does.' If this were true, then the gollum should have died when he lost the ring. And if the ring was still keeping him alive and prolonging his life then, the ring was still helping gollum and gollum should have all the power's that come with the ring. But since the ring did not do any of this to Gollum while it was out of his possesion, it shouldn't take any thing away from gollum when it dies.

My point is that Gollum would have not died when the ring died. His death was not ineviteable. And therefore, he could have rehabilitated. He would still be scarred by the ring, but relieved in a way since the ring was destroyed.

You also said, One of my favorite aspects of TOlkien is the bittersweet irony of it all--like Frodo says to sam at the end of the last chapter, "...when things are in danger, someone must give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them." I think that that is a recurrent theme or subtheme interwoven throughout the whole Middle Earth saga.

This kind of realates to 2 themes that I thought of. It's in this thread In praise of Sam's Pans (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002300) and the themes I see are that some times you must give something up in order to gain some thing and sometimes when you win, you lose. You might find it interesting.

Elven Mistress, you said, Someone said that Smeagol (Gollum) killed Deagol because of the ring's influence (or am i making this up...?) Well, anyway...he did it because of the ring. Now, let us say that Frodo or Sam had the strength to throw the ring into Mt. Doom. What then? The Ring - the thing that "controlled" Gollum would be gone forever. Slowly Smeagol would come out, and with a little compassion - and the weight of the ring lifted - i believe that Gollum really would have rehabilitated.

You were not making that up, I said it. Thank you for supporting me smilies/smile.gif . I said that in this thread .Gollum vs Other Hobbits (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002527) And no, you are not getting off topic. It really relates to this thread and discussion. I'm glad you see my point and agree with it.

This reply was very long and confusing. And I'm not sure if I clearly got my point across. So if something is hazy or confusing let me know and I'll try to explain better. Thanks.

[Jessica Jade]

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie -- quite fiery about this issue, are you not? Seems like it from your post. Almost like you were becoming indignant and righteous about your view. No worries, i will write a full reply very soon. I think you misinterpreted a lot of what i was saying, or perhaps didn't make myself clear enough. I'm well aware that my post wasn't the most organized, well thought out piece of writing. It's almost 4am here and i need to get some sleep. Talk to you soon.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I'm kind of p*ssed right now so I guess I am sort of in a 'firey' mood. Sorry about that. Anyways you said that you don't think you made yourself cear enough. I don't think that I made my reply that clear also, so I'll try to edit it later or something. I wasn't indignant but maybe I acted a little too righteous. I don't think I'm right, but I'm just very opinionated and I think I got carried away, sorry again. But thanks for your reply. I do enjoy the argument and I look forward to your next reply.

Elven Mistress, I think that the thread where I said that was actually this one The Forgotten Ringbearer (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002541) instead of Gollum vs Other Hobbits. Sorry about that. I look forward to you reply too.

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]