Middle earth= middle ages?/Barrow Downs= Ireland and Scotland?

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I brought up my theory in the thread, 'Do we live in Middle-earth? Pages: 1 2,' and I was wondering if anyone agrees with me. My theory is that ME is just an edited version of the middle-ages. Some people say that ME is like earth, where England is the shire and North America is Valinor etc. But I disagree with that to some level. I don't think that ME is an exact reference to our earth. I think that maybe some places can represent places in ME but not all.

What I'm particularly interested in is with the Barrow Downs. Now, I think that saying England represents the shire is a good quess. I think that it further represents where tolkien grew up in England. Ireland and Scotland are very close to England. Ireland is on its own island and Scotland is connected to England on an island also. I think that the Barrow Downs and quite possibly the Old Forest might represent Ireland and Scotland. Think about it. The Barrow Downs and the Old Forest are foggy like Ireland and Scotland can be. Also, the barrow wights remind me of the Celts, Glasgow, and the Druids.

I don't have too much to support my theory so I was wondering what you think about it. I kind of have a gut feeling about this but I may be wrong. Please tell you what you think of my theory. Do you agree/disagree? Try to focus more on the part about the Barrow downs, but if you have something to add about the MA, go ahead. If you want to, check out my reply on the thread that I mentioned at the top, it might help explain my theory better. Thanks.

[ December 01, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Durelin]

I agree with you Willie! Excellent thoughts you have there! smilies/wink.gif In a show about the making of LOTR or something like that PJ was talking and said that ME was based on an England that existed at some period of time in history. And it definetly is Medieval based. With stone fortresses, armour, swords, kings, a lot of turmoil, but simplicity also. I have read a lot of Arthurian legend so I can tell you, it definetly has Medieval roots. But I suck at geography so I can't help you in figuring out what country/continent corresponds with what place in Middle Earth. smilies/biggrin.gif That probably didn't help you any but, that's sorta my opinion.

[the witch king]

i must agree the barrow downs totaly remind me of ireland and also theres alot of barrows in ireland

[*Varda*]

Hm, interesting idea, but I can't see I see the Downs as remotely like Glasgow smilies/rolleyes.gif *pictures all the houses*

I like the idea of Scotland and Ireland being like the Downs, some parts are quite rural and I can picture it like that.

[the witch king]

i always picture the downs like i remember the west of ireland (where i came from)

[Kiara]

Not to mention that Hobbit food is SO British-Isles (sp?)in style. I don't think ME is necessarily related to an exact continent, I think Tolkien just dreamed it up based on alot of things he loved (and hated perhaps?) about our world (and more particularly HIS world) and I get SO nostalgic for Ireland when I read his books. (I basically grew up there, though I'm from the States originally). UP the Dubs!

[Voronwe]

Being a native of the fine city of Glasgow, I can safely say that it does not remind me of the Barrow-Downs. However, I would add that there are many (non-urban) parts of Scotland which do, in one way or another, bear resemblance to scenery in Middle Earth.

[the witch king]

i no totaly what you mean kiara i grew up in ireland as a kid and every time i think of the downs shire etc i just think home!

[Kiara]

Especially with the green-ness and the ruins ---and the movie helped to extend that vision, didn't you think? It made me want to see New Zealand as well....(we need a little green Graemlin, I think). smilies/biggrin.gif

[the witch king]

i no when i talk to most people in the uk about ireland and how nice it is they only seem to know about the darker side i.e. the north and the amount of killing that went on there i hate the fact that thats the image some ppl have of a amazing land like ireland

[Kiara]

My thought exactly: I mean, about 90% of the people in Ireland just ignore it or detest it at least. It's not like everyone there has taken a side and hates the other passionately....but that is beyond Tolkien, I'd say....Though I do wonder what HE thought of it all...Sad business.

[the witch king]

true it not a war zone or anything some people when theyed heard me talk with great pride and passion about ireland thort strate away that i was a member of the I.R.A.! but true i have strayed from the theam sorry

[Dimaldaeon]

Hmmm Ireland = Barrow Downs.
I suppose that could be imaginable. One night around Halloween I looked out of my window The local graveyard, which is at the end of my dad's farm, was really foggy and creepy. I could just imagine some great ghostly disembodied hand coming to get me.

Say Witch King where in the west are you from, i'm from Galway.

[the witch king]

snap freaky my family have a farm too havent bin there in years live in england now

[*Varda*]

Some elements of the Shire seem similar to Scotland, but certainly not Glasgow. Having lived just outside it for 16 years, I think I can safely say that!

Didn't Billy Boyd say that he felt hobbits were similar to Scots?

At the time when Tolkien wrote LOTR Scotland was perhaps a little bit more rural, but it was still developing in terms of cities and tower blocks...yet the Shire was meant to retain its idyllic setting and not get ruined...and although the Scouring happened everything was set to rights afterwards.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Thanks for all your replies. At first there weren't many but I'm glad now that some of us agree. Now, to the issue of Glasgow. I was refering to the Celts that are derived from Scotland, they are called the Glasgow. I'm sorry for the confusion.

Oh yeah, I can't stand it when people think that all of Ireland is like the north. No one seems to know about the rest of Ireland. They don't even know that the north makes up only about a third or fourth of Ireland. I think that if they visted Ireland they shut the h*ll up. Its beautiful and yet they trash it like it's some sh*tty war zone. I grew up in SF in the US and I still live here but my family ties are in Galway and Kerry. Yeah Dimaldaeon, Galway!!! And screw Armagh(just kidding). I also can't stand it when English people (please don't get offended)talk sh*t about Ireland or assume anyone who has pride in Ireland is from the north and is a member of the I.R.A. It just shows how ignorant they are, and it p*sses me off so much because it was their country that fu*ked up the north.

Anyways, thanks for the replies and lnog live Ireland. Here's one of my favorite songs, besides Kevin Barry and The Irish Drinking Song (Beer Beer Beer).

I.R.E.L.A.N.D.

Come all ye lads and lassies and sit you down with me,
And I will tell the truth about a land that`s dear to me,
You`ve read it in the papers and you`ve seen it on TV,
But I will spell it out for you, what Ireland means to me.

I is for internment of the innocent and free
R is for resistance to the laws of tryany
E is for the English who have torn our land apart
L is for the love of freedom in every Irish heart
A is for the answer we`re all searching for
N is for one nation and an end to this long war
D is for the dream of millions longing to be free.
That`s how I spell Ireland, that`s what Ireland means to me.

This land was once respected for it`s saints and scolars too
But now the bomb and bullet that`s all that makes the news
I know that it`s confusing and it`s hard to understand,
But I will spell it out for you by spelling Ireland

[Sharkû]

[Please remember to stick to Tolkien.]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

That is a good thought, *Varda*, that the Shire can be like Scotland, but I was thinking that Scotland (Ireland too) were more like the Barrow Downs and the Old Forest. I think that the Shire is more like England. Scotland is connected England on the same island so it does make sense. I don't know if you thought that I meant the Shire was like Scotland or if you thought that yourself. Scotland and Ireland seem to be more related to the Old Forest and especially the Barrow Downs.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Oh yeah, Kiara, you made me think of another way Ireland and Scotland are like the Barrow Downs. If I remember the history of the downs, I think that there were battles there or just barrow-wights, who died in battles. Anyways, that really reminds me of the atlles between Ireland/Scotland and England. Maybe tolkien wanted the wights to be like the dead Irish and Scottish soldiers who died fighting the English. Since Tolkien was English, he might take the side of the English and think that the Irish/Scottish were evil, so he made them into wights, who were evil and did come out of Angmar. Or maybe the wights were supposed to be like the English who died fighting the Irish/Scottish. Tolkien might have recognized that what the English did was wrong and he wanted to portray them as evil wights. Tolkien might have taken the side of the Irish/Scottish on this. Or maybe Tolkien did not want it to represent it but it just influenced his story of middle earth even though he might not have known it. Maybe I'm wrong about the whole thing. Just a thought.

It sucks when someone (Tolkien) creates a great work (Middle-earth) and dies before admirers like us have a chance to find out from him whether our thoughts are true or not. Oh well, there's nothing we can do about it. R.I.P.

[Orald]

Not paying attention to any of the posts except for a few, like most people do on here, I didn't notice anyone say anything about Tolkien's explaination of how the world we live in is the same as Middle-Earth, just 7 or 8 ages in the future.

Of course a lot of the people don't post anything worth while, I sometimes like to think I do.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Really, I didn't even know Tolkien said that. Could you tell me where you read or heard that, I'd like to know myself. Thanks. Of course a lot of the people don't post anything worth while, I sometimes like to think I do.



This really doesn't apply to this thread (unless you're talking about the song and the discussion about the north) but sometimes I feel the same way.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Anyways, that really reminds me of the atlles between Ireland/Scotland and England. Maybe tolkien wanted the wights to be like the dead Irish and Scottish soldiers who died fighting the English. Since Tolkien was English, he might take the side of the English and think that the Irish/Scottish were evil, so he made them into wights, who were evil and did come out of Angmar. Or maybe the wights were supposed to be like the English who died fighting the Irish/Scottish. Tolkien might have recognized that what the English did was wrong and he wanted to portray them as evil wights.

Sorry, but that's tripe. No one these days in Britain thinks too much about those wars, I mean taking them seriously, except for fanatics and nationalists. It was just power struggles. I'm sure that none of it carried into Tolkien's writings.

Why should the Wights have anything to do with the 'British' Middle-Earthers, anyway? The Shire could not represent England, not the whole of it. It represents perhaps where Tolkien grew up, but there is more to England than idealistic countryside and simple farming people. That the invading evil from Angmar was supposed to be the Scots seems very unreasonable. For a start, the Scots weren't evil -- no more than anyone else, anyway -- , they didn't really invade England much (more the other way around mostly), and in the end the two countries forged a union; something Angmar and Arnor certainly did not do. I really don't think the England-Scotland wars had anything to do with Middle-Earth whatsoever.

Having read a few of these posts, this is what I think. Certain parts of Middle-Earth did relate back to Britain, but actual events in Britain were not involved. Such thoughts of ME wars realting to British wars is pretty far-fetched. Tolkien set out to create a mythology for ancient Britain, not create a seperate fantasy world based on it.

As for the fog... Ireland and Scotland aren't the only parts of the British Isles to have an abundance of that, you know.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

You're English, aren't you.

Anyways I still disagree with you, but good points. You are somewhat right you know, but I still picture the Barrow Downs like Ireland/Scotland. I guess first impressions stick. If you've been to either of the two, you'd probably see what I mean, literally.
Well, thanks for your thoughts. It nice to have at least some one who disagrees. smilies/smile.gif

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

It nice to have at least some one who disagrees.

Hmmm... shall I take that as a threat? ;0)

Yes, incidentally I am English. And I happen also to note that you aren't, which puts me a notch or two up in authority on this thread I think. *sniff*

The Barrow-Downs could well remind you of Ireland or Scotland; it does me, although there are also many places in England and Wales that bear a reference to it -- and many more places in Scotland and Ireland that don't. When I say that, I mean that Scotland and Ireland are obviously not just great big Barrow-Downs with bits of Old Forest strewn accross them; but indeed, there are quite a few sites accross the British Isles that have a downish quality to them, yes.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[the witch king]

the wars in ireland agains the english whernt a power struggle! it was a more powerful nation takeing land from inocent people and butchering women and children but that not what were talking about. in years gone by the people of southern england looked at ireland and northen england and scotland as wild and scarey much in the same way the hobbits thort of the downs/old forest

[Bill Ferny]

But you can’t say that a thinking, scholarly, member of Oxford’s intelligencia would be thinking of Ireland or Scotland as “scary” or “wild” in the 20th century.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I agree with Gwaihir. Eriador is not the British isles, although the British countryside was undoubtedly a strong influence on many of Tolkien's locations, which isn't terribly surprising given that he lived there. There are fields of barrows all over Britain, any combination of which could have been the inspiration for the Barrow Downs, which location stands for nothing more than an eerie collection of ancient graves, some of them inhabited by the shades of the dead. I wouldn't be surprised if Tolkien had wandered around a few barrows in his time: they can inspire that sort of thinking.

As for the idea that Arnor is England and Angmar some bizarre amalgam of Scotland and Ireland, or vice-versa, I think that highly unlikely. Setting aside the fact that Tolkien disagreed with allegory on principle, the English regard those old medieval wars as ancient history. Tolkien wouldn't have given them a second thought, let alone tried to demonise one side or the other. I mean to say, if he made no references to either of the massive global conflicts that took place in his lifetime, how likely is it that he'd refer to a couple of dynastic quarrels that took place long before he was born?

No, I'm afraid that Arnor versus Angmar is a simple matter of good versus evil. Despite whatever impression Hollywood might have created, there has never been such a war in Britain.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

the wars in ireland agains the english whernt a power struggle! it was a more powerful nation takeing land from inocent people and butchering women and children

It would be nice if things really were that simple. Perhaps it's because they aren't that Tolkien avoided allegories.

[Luinadar]

"Eriador is not the British isles, although the British countryside was undoubtedly a strong influence on many of Tolkien's locations, which isn't terribly surprising given that he lived there. "
Good claims Squatter and Gwaihir, that finally attempt to answer this point directly, without some pointless attempts at pro-irish nationalism at the expense of historical facts.

[Bill Ferny]

Though I wouldn’t go so far as to trivialize the Scottish or Irish wars of independence (why do we always forget the Welsh?), I have to agree with Squatter and Gwaihir on this matter. Seeing Scotland/Ireland (and you would have to include Wales to be fair) as they exist or existed politically, is a bit of allegory that was certainly not intended, and a stretch to see as unconscious on the part of Tolkien. There's nothing wrong with Irish Nationalism or its opposite per se, but don't force either down Tolkien's throat.

No, I'm afraid that Arnor versus Angmar is a simple matter of good versus evil. Despite whatever impression Hollywood might have created, there has never been such a war in Britain.

Thank you! Now all we have to do is convince modern historians of this in regard to the Normans.

[Kiara]

i think most of you guys went way to far with the whole Irish/English/Scottish/Welsh thing. There is a ton of really sad history about both of those Islands (all of those islands!) and just about Europe in general. Too many wars in too little space, it's not worth getting hot and bothered about again---that's what the wars accomplished in the first place, I would have hoped.

As for Ireland, I lived there in the 90s, and visited Scotland and England & Wales often in the time I was there. It was still WAY behind other countries in many industrial aspects, and if there was a category of "2nd world country" back then, Ireland fit there. They are a passionate and headstrong people, and the English were the ones who helped them get "organized" in many ways (both by causing them to react to them negatively, and by positive economic influences as well). What I'm saying is there is both good and bad in the history of their relationship: AND NEITHER OF THEM ARE COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED in their actions.

But in regard to Tolkien's view or lack thereof of the situation in Ireland and the "power struggle" therein, with the 1916 uprising in Ireland, and how that played into WWI etc..., I DOUBT very much that he didn't notice it or even have an opinion of it, especially as he was part of the "British intelligencia".

P.S. Does anyone have a monopoly on or a "one up" on the thoughts of the great man? I think not. Let's try and ALL (including me) be a bit more humble and receptive....please. smilies/frown.gif

[engwaalphiel]

Good point before from Gwaihir the Windlord !
(and not just because it was the first mention of Wales smilies/smile.gif)
The setting for Tolkiens works would i presume be a mixture of different countries , continents and cultures as said before. And living in Wales in one of it's most rural parts (we have the Elan Valley and it is so beautiful) but britain is just one place with rural countryside , Tolkiens settings could have been based on anywhere . Perhaps Ireland and Scotland or England but it could have easily been parts of the USA or canada or anywhere . Thats probably a load of repetition but i hope it kind of makes sense .

[the witch king]

not once has any one said that angmar was based on the british islands i was talking about the downs. personaly id rether it stay a "2nd world nation" than have religion forced down an entire nations throte killings and hatered that lingers there today there is no justification for what happend in ireland and to the irish i never thort tolkien would take a stand on eather side in his books or try to draw similarities between "real" history and the history of m.e. i just think that the land scape was vagely the same tiz all

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: the witch king ]

[Dimaldaeon]

Ok this is going way off topic and I'm sure Tolkien never intended this but dosen't the scouring of the Shire bear some resemblence to Ireland 1916-22
Merry Colllins?? Pippin de Valera???

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Good thought but I sadly disagree. Think about it, the scouring of the Shire was fought between the ruffian's and the hobbits. While the fighting in Ireland was a civil war. Eamon de Valera was fighting with Michael Collins, and if you relate them to Merry and Pippin, they didn't fight.

Good try though and keep the thoughts coming. Long Live Ireland! I wish I could say that about Tolkien, but R.I.P.

I like your signature smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[the witch king]

i gess like the 4 hobbits instead ov the 7 i.r.b. leaders?

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Now that makes more sense.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Ok this is going way off topic and I'm sure Tolkien never intended this but dosen't the scouring of the Shire bear some resemblence to Ireland 1916-22
Merry Colllins?? Pippin de Valera?

Any popular uprising is going to match the Scouring of the Shire in some way or another. I see it more as an archetypal peasants' rebellion with an added anti-industrial twist myself.

not once has any one said that angmar was based on the british islands

Yes they have. Here:
Maybe tolkien wanted the wights to be like the dead Irish and Scottish soldiers who died fighting the English. Since Tolkien was English, he might take the side of the English and think that the Irish/Scottish were evil, so he made them into wights, who were evil and did come out of Angmar. Or maybe the wights were supposed to be like the English who died fighting the Irish/Scottish.

I think that it's time we stopped talking about Anglo-Irish history here. I'm sure that there are plenty of sites devoted to the discussion of what a wonderful place Ireland is and how horrible the English are, but this isn't one of them. Some of the comments are getting a little inflammatory for my liking.

i just think that the land scape was vagely the same tiz all

Me too.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[the witch king]

Im sorry if i came across as if i thort the english where bad people coz there not i live there now and have lot of friends who where born there i just think that what happend in ireland was horrific same as i think the IRA bombing inocents is horrific and i in no way hold any thing against the people of an entire nation just coz some people of that nation have dont something i consider evil and i think if every one thinks like this every one will get along better i no this is'nt tolkien but i think it needed to be said

[Rumil]

Erm,.. were't the barrow downs and the old forest on the Eastern side of the Shire?

I seem to remember Tolkien writing that Hobbiton was around the same latitude as Oxford, which makes central England (or Mercia if you like) the Shire (Assuming longitude is the same!). In that case, the Barrow Downs could either just about be the South Downs (South of London)(If so does Tom Bombadil live in London still?) or may have disappeared into the English channel in some cataclysm. Perhaps the Midgewater marshes are the east Anglian fens! Wales and Ireland would be Elven country, naturally. Wales being the Tower Hills and Blue Mountains, Ireland being part of Lindon (also cut off by some cataclysm). Scotland would be the Northern downs and perhaps Northern Wastes smilies/smile.gif .

Another idea of Tolkien's was that Britain was Tol Eressea, towed back from the undying lands. Warwick Castle was Kor-Tirion and Ireland was a bit of Tol Eressea that fell off as it arrived!

[the witch king]

yes true but if you compair a map of the world with a map of M.E. you will also find many differences i.e. no spain! i beleve that m.e. was based on todays landscape but not 100%

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Obviously< some parts of ME were real world inspired> (god_damn this computer< it"s going funny as it does sometimes>>> buggrit i"ll post anyway) such as harad (africa) rhun (asia) and eriador (europe)< although they were not literal transporitions of these places by any means>

the idea the britain was tol eressea was quite a primitive one< i understand< in tolkien"s writings> it was his first idea about the matter and was not carried on>

As for Ireland, I lived there in the 90s, and visited Scotland and England & Wales often in the time I was there. It was still WAY behind other countries in many industrial aspects, and if there was a category of "2nd world country" back then, Ireland fit there.

this< however< has nothing to do with it>

who said the anglo_celtic wars weren"t power struggles? all wars are power struggles< thankyou very much> even the irish war: britain only invaded ireland because if they hadn"t france would"ve< and given them a backdoor into england> remember there was a good degree of tension in the days that took place in>

squatter< thanks for your backing> i think we"ve about got this one wrapped up smilies/smile.gif> i"m off anyway< as i"m not entirely sure you know what i"m saying> sorry about the comp: it happens> *ho_hum*

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[the witch king]

I did the war in ireland was not so much a power struggle as a fight for the right to exist i see it not so much as fighting for power but a fight to keep ones culture alive but again its not tolkien so im cuting this short if any one wants to thalk to me about irish history p.m. me ok?

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: the witch king ]

[Dimaldaeon]

that fell off as it arrived
Osse tried to drag Tol Eressea west and it cracked, Ireland didn't "Fall off"