Cædmon's Hymn

[Iarwain]

I was just pondering the words of this classic poem, the first written in the English language: * * * * * * * Nu scylun hergan hefaenricaes uard
metudæs maecti end his modgidanc
uerc uuldurfadur sue he uundra gihuaes
he aerist scop aelda barnum
heben til hrofe haleg scepen.
tha middungeard moncynnæs uard
eci dryctin æfter tiadæ
firum foldu frea allmectig

Translated it says: Now let me praise the keeper of Heaven's kingdom,
the might of the Creator, and his thought,
the work of the Father of glory, how each of wonders
the Eternal Lord established in the beginning.
He first created for the sons of men
Heaven as a roof, the holy Creator,
then Middle-earth the keeper of mankind,
the Eternal Lord, afterwards made,
the earth for men, the Almighty Lord.


I never knew that the early English actually called it "Middle-Earth". This has probably been brought up before, but it is a new concept to me, so if anyone has thought, please give them. smilies/smile.gif

Iarwain

[ April 24, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Bruce MacCulloch]

The Professor explained his use of the term Middle-Earth. 'Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in (like the Mercury of Eddison). It is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard: the name for the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'. From the Letters

[Salocin]

He first created for the sons of men
Heaven as a roof, the holy Creator,
then Middle-earth the keeper of mankind,
the Eternal Lord, afterwards made,
the earth for men, the Almighty Lord.

This make refference to three parts: heaven, middle-earth, and earth. It sounds like earth is were men live and heaven is the upper-limit of the world, but Middle-Earth is "the keeper of mankind"??? Does that make sense to anyone?

[littlemanpoet]

In "Bright's Old English Grammer and Reader" (which I am so happy to own!), uard is equivalent to weard, which translates as either guardian or keeper.

Bright's does have this poem, and comparing Iarwain's version (Anglian) to Bright's (West Saxon) I notice that the first line and the "mankind" line have the same grammatical construction in the Old English, but not in the translation. In other words, the translation should match in the two lines so that as you have "Heaven's kingdom" in the first line, you should have "Mankind's kingdom" in the line of question. At least, that's the way it looks to my eye. It makes better sense, too. So I'm 99% convinced of it (seeing as I'm no expert). Hope that helps!

[Annunfuiniel]

He first created for the sons of men
Heaven as a roof, the holy Creator,
then Middle-earth the keeper of mankind,
the Eternal Lord, afterwards made,
the earth for men, the Almighty Lord.
Salocin, the lines make much more sense if you mark that "the keeper of mankind" doesn't refer to the Middle-earth but is just repetition: "the holy Creator"="the keeper of mankind"=the Eternal Lord"=the Almighty Lord". The order of these phrases is indeed a bit confusing but that's how I saw the meaning.

EDIT: littlemanpoet's answer seems more educated though! smilies/smile.gif I don't know old English at all so I totally missed that linguistic point of view.

[ April 12, 2003: Message edited by: Annunfuiniel ]

[littlemanpoet]

Why thankyew, Annunfuiniel for saying so. Itz nyse tue bee kawld edeekated. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Maylin]

I may not be quite on topic, in which case I don't understand and probably shouldn't be here, but I thought that something along those line when talking about earth made sense because it is between Heaven and the other place. ( I think the actual term would be censored)

[Annunfuiniel]

Why, you're welcome, littlemanpoet! smilies/biggrin.gif
But I thought of something that might back up my argument. I managed to find Bright's Old-English Glossary from the web and on the basis of its information I would translate
"hefaenricaes uard" as "Heaven-Kingdom's keeper/guard" or "the keeper of Heaven-Kingdom" (contrast: "the keeper of Heaven's Kingdom").
(heofon (heofone, f) m heaven + gs rîces [rîce n kingdom, sovereignty, authority] >> "kingdom" is in genitive, not "heaven", as is the word "moncynnæs"=mankind's)

So this turns your argument up-side down, littlemanpoet: yes, the lines have the same grammatical constuction but it seems that the latter line ("keeper of mankind" i.e. "Mankind's keeper") is translated more accurately; the emphasis here is on the word "keeper".

So this lines with my thought of repetition: "the keeper of Heaven-Kingdom"="the holy Creator"="the keeper of mankind"=the Eternal Lord"=the Almighty Lord".

How does that sound? Mark again that I really don't know Old-English at all. smilies/smile.gif

[littlemanpoet]

I must admit to being at sea to a certain extent with linguistics, but I love it! Which is why I'm in my cup instead of in my pipe. hee hee. Anyway, and I don't know if this affects your analysis at all, Annunfuniniel, but Anglo-Saxon (aka Old English) was still at least a partially inflected language, in which case word order mattered about as much as it did in Latin. So the genitive is critical and the order in which the words fell is rendered (almost) unimportant. Okay, I have to do this myself in order to understand it. So bear with me, please. Thankyew smilies/smile.gif

Nu | scylun | hergan | hefaenricaes | uard
Now |let us (?) | praise | heavenkingdom's | keeper

tha | middungeard | moncynnæs | uard
then | middle-earth | mankind's | keeper

Hmmm. Shows what I know, eh? Yup, the whole thing is a praise to the creator, with a repetition of the theme by giving the Creator different "titles", so to speak. Which gives it a more song-like feel, and almost an incantatory poetic touch. Just goes to show what fine poets they were back then, no?

[Annunfuiniel]

Just goes to show what fine poets they were back then, no?

My words exactly! smilies/smile.gif

EDIT: Btw. there seems to be one line missing from the original text. I can't find anything corresponding with "the Eternal Lord established in the beginning.".

[ April 13, 2003: Message edited by: Annunfuiniel ]

[Salocin]

You guys explained that very nicely. Now I see that "mankind's keeper" is refering to the creator and not middle-earth, but I still don't understand why there seems to be a destinction between middle-earth and "earth for men". Do either of you (or any one else for that matter) have an explanation for that? Thanks.

[Annunfuiniel]

I see your point there, Salocin. Ehem, I try to form the latter part anew the way I see it is meant to be conceived:

The holy Creator* first created**
for the sons of men
Heaven as a roof [and]
then "after times"*** the Middle-earth
[as] the earth for men.

So, I would again offer my famous repetition motive as the answer. smilies/wink.gif

*etc. etc., the whole list of all the titles given to the Creator
**there is actually only this one verb in the whole latter part, that is in the last 5 lines
***which again is my own translation instead of "afterwards made"

EDIT: I found the missing line!
eci dryctin, or astelidæ.

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Annunfuiniel ]

[Annunfuiniel]

then "after times"*** the Middle-earth
~~~~~~~~~~~~
**there is actually only this one verb in the whole latter part, that is in the last 5 lines
***which again is my own translation instead of "afterwards made

Woops, some misinterpretation there!
"æfter tiadæ" indeed seems to hold a verb in it, though I couldn't find it from Bright's glossary no matter how hard I tried. But in the Early Saxon (aka West Saxon) version of the poem the line goes "æfter teode" and 'teode' is somewhat close to the Old Eglish verb teohhian (tiohhian)- to arrange, appoint, direct, destine >>3pers. singular teohhode-(he) arrenged etc.
So, The Eternal Lord made heaven, and then middle-earth which He afterwards appointed as the earth for men.
Sorry about the confusion!

Okay, so that this thread won't be closed ~(for the relation to Tolkien is becoming quite vague) I'd like to refer to other instance where "Middle-Earth" is mentioned and that is of course the Elder Edda (one of JRRT "inspirators" you could say):
Áður Burs synir
bjöðum um ypptu,
þeir er Miðgarð
mæran skópu.
Sól skein sunnan
á salar steina,
þá var grund gróin
grænum lauki
And translation:
Then Bur's sons lifted
the level land,
Mithgarth the mighty
there they made;
The sun from the south
warmed the stones of earth,
And green was the ground
With growing leeks.

Well, the commentary says the 'Mithgarth' is actually "Middle Dwelling" but the connection is quite obvious - here too it marks the world (the "refuge") of men. (And Voluspo or Völuspa, the first part of the Poetic Edda from which those previous lines are, is sometimes referred to as "The Vala's Prophecy". Interesting, although here the name 'Vala' is used for the prophetess who tells the tale.)

[Salocin]

Thanks, it's a lot clearer now.

[Iarwain]

Wow, guys. Interesting discussion, I could almost keep track of what you were talking about. (Haven't had a chance to study germanic languages, I'm a lazy American and Koine will soon be my first ancient language. I love the linguistics though, it's so interesting to see the history of words, how they've developed and where their deeper meanings lie. I suppose I've got years ahead of me when I'll be able to chase that intrest. Perhaps someday I'll become a philologist myself... smilies/wink.gif

Iarwain

[ April 17, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Iarwain]

Another Idea about the relative terms: Heaven, Middle-Earth, and Earth. Each place seems gradually less seclusive. Heaven, the highest, the living cannot reach it. Middle-Earth, the nurterer of all mankind, the land above the ocean and below the sky, and finally, the Earth, the whole sphere of known existence, encompassing sea, land and sky.

Now what would this say about Tolkien's Middle Earth?

Iarwain

[ April 17, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Joy]

Okay - just found something cool - you know the word simbelmynë, the flower that grows in Rohan on the graves of the people. The flower's name means The Evermind.


I just took a closer look at that word. I was looking at something in Old English and saw the connection.

The word simble is Ever or always. That word is close to the Latin word Simpre which means always. OE takes most of it's roots from the Germanic/Teutonic language, but it did take some from Latin.

Also, the last part of sibelmynë is mynë. This word in OE is the word for mind.

The flower, that has such an Elvish sounding name, is not Elvish at all. It is Old English through and through. This was the language that was most dear to Tolkien in his life. This was the language that, in it's discovery, fulfilled him the most.

Just an interesting observation that I made today. smilies/biggrin.gif

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks, Joy! Made my day brighter. I could use a little sibelmyne t'day.

[Lalwendë]

I've just been reading about Caedmon and wondered if anything had been discussed on here before so I shall pull this thread up and ponder some things...

The story of Caedmon is fascinating so I've posted this excellent link. (http://www.heorot.dk/bede-caedmon.html) It also features several versions of Caedmon's Hymn as discussed in this thread. There was a lot of discussion on this thread about the use of the term 'middle-earth' by Tolkien, as this was also used by Caedmon (and no doubt is why a few Tolkien fans have eventually discovered Caedmon and his own story!). What interested me was how Caedmon seemed to 'receive' the gift of his poems and songs, and how similar this was to Tolkien's sense that he was 'discovering' something in his writing about Arda. I'm certain Tolkien will have had a thorough understanding of Caedmon, and so will have known his story; I'd like to think this story inspired his own notions of himself as a writer.

The other thing I found interesting was in the use of 'middle-earth' as a term. At the time of Caedmon's writing, the world was not yet fully explored, and what other lands were known about were considered very distant; this is similar to Middle Earth in that Valinor was known about yet effectively closed off to most of those who lived in Middle Earth.

The term also hints that this is a land which is in the centre of things, that there are worlds not only around it, but also above and below it. This gives a wonderful sense of possibility, that there is more to the world and to life. And in poetic contrast, one of the notes I was reading from the above website gives a modern version of geard as yard, so in that sense, Middle Earth can also be seen as cosy and provinical, even familiar.