Wanna play a game of chess?

[Balin999]

I'm just reading the LotR for the 7th time now, for the 4th time in english. Yesterday i noticed this:
A pawn did Gandalf say? Perhaps; but on the wrong chessboard
Said to Beregond by Pippin.
Now I thought: How did the people of Middle-Earth ever get to the chess game?
Did they invent it? I don't think so. As far as i know, chess was invented in Asia and came to Europe in the, well let's say... 17th century (correct me if i'm wrong).
now that's quite the time in which the whole story of middle earth could be set. Meaning, the plot of Lord of the Rings.
So, the people of Middle-Earth could have gotten it from the west, from Valinor, by the people of Numenor, by the elves, something like that. (If they could invent the Palantiri, why shouldn't they invent chess?)
BUT, and now this sounds absolutely impossible to me, but what if one of the two missing Istari, or even both, that went to the East, learned it from the people who lived there, brought the game to western middle-earth, and then vanished again in the east.
There are reasons why this could be possible: The Istari were intellectuals, obviously.
Istari are rather curious in learning new things.
And, that's a guess, they love entertaining themselves while they are not busy with something.
So, chess would seem rather interesting to them. That doesn't give an explanation why they should go back to the west and bring it with them, but I gave it a try.
I know that this is rather ridiculous, nevertheless I appreciate any serious answer.

[Aiwendil]

Chess (actually, its earlier form, "Shatranj") was definitely known in Europe as early as the fifteenth century. In 1495, the rules took on their modern form, starting in Italy I believe. That's still well out of the Tolkien time-frame, of course. Your theory about the blue wizards is interesting. Certainly if Gandalf could pick up the habit of smoking pipeweed, Alatar and Pallando could pick up the habit of playing chess.

[ September 23, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Guildo]

this is from webster

PAWN
Etymology: Middle English pown, from Middle French poon, from Medieval Latin pedon-, pedo foot soldier, from Late Latin, one with broad feet, from Latin ped-, pes foot -- more at FOOT
Date: 14th century
1 : one of the chessmen of least value having the power to move only forward ordinarily one square at a time, to capture only diagonally forward, and to be promoted to any piece except a king upon reaching the eighth rank
2 : one that can be used to further the purposes of another

chess is a game that was inspired by medievil warfare, so i think the game was more likely to have been "invented" from off duty warriors and generals, as a way to develope new battle strategies and pass their time while not in battle.
Gandalf probably meant this in referance to definition 2 and the above in 1.

BUT i could be wrong

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Guildo ]

[Durelin]

I'm not sure what the history books say but Middle Earth (I believe) was created as a szeperate world from ours, not sometime in the history of Earth. He includes a lot of things that were not necessarily known or created by the time in history ME resembles. Tolkien (again, I believe) made it this way so he would hav some le-way to create a totally unique world. When you read his books you should not be in the world we live in but in his world of Middle Earth, I believe he wanted it that way, so that it was totally seperate from history so he didn't have the barrier of historical correctness. Just my opinion.

[Aiwendil]

I'm not sure what the history books say but Middle Earth (I believe) was created as a szeperate world from ours, not sometime in the history of Earth.

Middle-earth is indeed supposed to be our world, sometime in the region of 7000 years ago.

[Dimaldaeon]

Has anyone read the Ulster Cycle? It's a group of manuscripts written in the 8th century, which contain loads of information on Irish Legends from the 1st century. In it there are references to a game called fidchell, fidchell is the Gaeilic word for chess. As well as this boards have been unearthed which are marked out in a style very similar to chess.
So chess could have been played in Europe, in one form or another, as early as 500BC.

[Guildo]

Durelin im not sure how reliable this info is, i heard it on the extra comentary included on the extended DVD, but they said Tolkien's intention, was 1 to stay away from allegorical stories, allowing one to develope a poersonal bond with LOTR---what i mean by this---- Tolkien removed all allegories from his sories so you couldnt easily compare it with ANY other stories, but you could make thousands of other associations with actual events in ones life. (What does this have to do with Chess and England?????---ill tell you )

2. Tolkiens other intention was to develope a mythology for England seeing it hadnt any, and the little of Mythology England had, was actualy composed of other cultures myths such as "King Arthur" which actualy has a french origin. by removing all allegories from his stories he was able to create a mythology that was original as well as sounding just as believable as any other mythology.

and as i said last time, i could be wrong.

[Durelin]

Ah, thankyou Guildo! Aiwendil, I still think it wasn't! Don't try and sway my opinions, it just doesn't work! Lots of people can back me up on that! smilies/biggrin.gif All in good nature, always in good nature!

[Guildo]

Thats respectable Dur i feel like that about alot of things, we should play a game of chess sometime

[Aiwendil]

Aiwendil, I still think it wasn't! Don't try and sway my opinions, it just doesn't work!

Well, there's actually a quote in Letters saying that Middle-earth is supposed to be the ancient history of our own world; and I don't know of any evidence to the contrary, though there is a good deal more to back up the Letters. I'm at school and without Letters at the moment, but next week I'll be home and could provide the quote if you like. If this doesn't sway your opinion, I suppose nothing will.

[Balin999]

those are very good explanations and thoughts, but i'm also interested of your opinion of my idea that chess could have been brought to western middle-earth by the Bluew wizards.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

the little of Mythology England had, was actualy composed of other cultures myths such as "King Arthur" which actualy has a french origin

Actually it's Celtic. The French elements, such as Camelot and Lancelot were added by Chrétien de Troyes at a much later date. Tolkien's objection to the Arthurian legends was two-fold: they were not English (Anglo-Saxon) in origin, and they had been hopelessly bastardised over time.

i'm also interested of your opinion of my idea that chess could have been brought to western middle-earth by the Bluew wizards.

There's no reason why it shouldn't have been. I do think, however, that the evidence is a bit scanty for an argument one way or the other.

[Guildo]

i stand corrected about King Arthur, but as far as chess being brought to ME by the wizards, as i said above i doubt it becouse it is a game based on war strategies and more likeliy to have been invented by Generals and Soldiers.

[Kalessin]

I would put this one firmly under that catchall "poetic license" smilies/smile.gif

By the way, I have seen elsewhere on these boards definitive references to Tolkien's conception of ME specifically as our earth, with, I think, The Shire geographically equivalent to Oxfordshire. Scroll back in The Books and I think you'll soon find some relevant threads.

The origins (and indeed the nature) of chess in 'our' world are also fascinating, and as has been pointed out early references do seem to occur in Irish folklore. However, I think Tolkien simply made reference as a figure of speech, and I can't remember anything so precise as the Blue Wizards being responsible for its inception.

Peace smilies/smile.gif

Kalessin

[bombur]

There are many inconcistencies in tech and inventions in ME that in my opinion clearly prove that it is NOT our world (a parallel world perhaps and logical one in my opinion). Theese include for example mechanical clocks coexisting with scalemail armor and matches preceeding gunpowder weapons. So the precense of chess is rather meaningless nuance.

But chess. Ah. As a stratgegy game enthusiast, I must point out certain things to you.

There are many more or less ancient strategic games played in diferent types of boards. The Irish game also therefore needs not be chess. There is one ancient African game I never learned, but which seems to be related to checkers. There is old European game called snakes and ladders which I have never seen. There is the Roman "tabula" game, which is the modern backgammon. There is the chineese-korean-japaneese game of Go, which is encirclement strategy game of white and black stones in the intersections of lines in a 19*19 board. It is my personal favorite. The Irish game may just be one of theese many inventions.

Modern chess is said to be invented in persia about thousand years ago or so. However this use of the word modern is decieving. We might as well say that the european chess is invented there and then. For chess is not. If I remember this right, the chineese chess XIANGI has 8*8 board like our chess, with river crossing it between the 4th and 5th row between the black and white army. However the game is played in the intersections of the lines, so that the game practically has 9*8 playable intersections excluding the river. I think it has as units 2 cannons, 2 cavalry(knights), 2 elephants, 2 bodyguards 5 pawns and a king. Cannons move like rooks, but only take a piece or check if they can jump over another piece. Bodyguards move like a king. Neither them nor king may leave 9 intersection "stronghold" on their own side. Elephants can move two intersections diagonally, but may not cross the river. Pawns move one forward and take a piece IN FRONT OF THEM. I remember xiangi a bit uncertainly, but I think this was how it went. Japaneese chess SHOGI on the other hand has 9*9 board, game is played in the squares and there is no river. The pieces are in classical shogi 9 pawns (that move like in XIANGI), two lances (rook that can only move forward), two cavalries (a knight that can only move forward), Two silver generals (that can move one step to every direction diagonally and forward), two golden generals (that can move one step to every difrection in straight line and to both forward diagonal directions) and a king. Any piece reaching the last three lines of squares in the opponent side becomes a gold general. A piece taken is never removed from the game but instead becomes a "drop piece" that the one taking it may drop to any vacant square on the board and use as ones own. It may even be dropped in front of the opponents king to check. The pieces are flat chips of identical color, and the side of them is determined by the alignment of their narrow end.

So as you see we really do not know where chess originated from. Games of strategy and intellect are likely as old consept as the mankind and games strongly resembling chess propably arose immediately following the first battles between armies organised in two opposing lines.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

[Rumil]

(Bow's before Bombur's Chessesque knowledge!) smilies/smile.gif

Just to add another point, there was an ancient Welsh game which translates as 'throwboard' which comes up in the Mabinogion (written ~900s AD, but referring back to times well before). Probably a whole Celtic board game thing going on. I imagine board games like these go way back into prehistory in many cultures, so OK for Middle Earth.

Anyway, to digress slightly smilies/wink.gif , I can't believe you don't know snakes and ladders!

[bombur]

"(Bow's before Bombur's Chessesque knowledge!)"

No need to bow. In a large net forum, the odds are that if one takes any obscure and inconsequential area of trival knowledge, there is one to know something of it.

I am a hobbyist of abstract strategy games. I am rather good amateur in chess (about 1300 elo perhaps) though I do not play in tournaments and I have 12 kyu belt (amateur... yellow-belt equivalent perhaps) in Go.

"Just to add another point, there was an ancient Welsh game which translates as 'throwboard' which comes up in the Mabinogion (written ~900s AD, but referring back to times well before). Probably a whole Celtic board game thing going on. I imagine board games like these go way back into prehistory in many cultures, so OK for Middle Earth."

I completely agree, this is what I meant. I do not know of this heritage, but I find it easy to believe that such exists.

"Anyway, to digress slightly, I can't believe you don't know snakes and ladders!"

I do not. I doubt that anyone in Finland does, at leas by that name. But I'd love to hear of it.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

[Lindril Arvilya]

Perhaps the African game you mentioned is Mancala? If so, pick up a board sometime- I've gotten a good deal of the OACs and Grade Twelves at my school and many of my campers in the summer hooked on that game. Simple and quick, but you can spend a whole afternoon playing round after round....

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I really think that Tolkien just put chess in there because it makes middle earth seem like it actaully did exist at one point. Same with the armor and weapons as Bombur said. It just seems more realistic. Just because tolkien puts chess in ME, doesn't mean tolkien invented it. He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked thier king Golfimbul's head clean off with a wooden club. It sailed a hundred yards through the air and went down a rabbit-hole, and in this was the battle was won and the game of Golf invented at the same moment.

This quote is taken from The Hobbit in the first chapter. It's talking about Bullroarer inventing the game of Golf. Of course this is not true. There was no ME and therefore, there was never a goblin who golf was named after. But the point is that adding things (in this case games) from our world into ME only makes it seem more realistic.

[Rumil]

OK. Bombur, well you did ask,

The rules of Snakes and Ladders (a game of chance unless you have loaded dice)

1.Divide a board into 100 (10x10) equal squares
2. Draw snakes and ladders vertically or diagonally between squares, most should be around 3 squares high, some upto 6 squares
3. Each player rolls 1d6, and moves their piece that number of squares, if they reach the end of one row, they start on the next row
4. If you end on the bottom of a ladder, you go to the top of the ladder
5. If you land on the head of a snake, you slide down to the botom of the snake
6. The first player to reach square 100 is the winner.

Remember, according to the Marquis of Montrose, "He either fears his fates too much or his deserts are small, who dares not put it to the touch, to win, or lose it all"

[Selmo]

As has already been said, all cultures in our own world have produced board games with elements of strategy. It would be surprising if Middle Earth didn't produce several games similar to chess.

Chess, as we know it, did not exist in Middle Earth. When he was translating The Red Book, Tolkien used the name as a translation for a sadly unknown Middle Earth game of strategy.

[bombur]

Well. For startters I surely have never heard of snakes an ladders. And have to admit, it sounds terribly dull.

But anyways... I agree with Selmo. ME propably has some games that are like chess, but are not chess.

People have invented the tridimensional chess seen in star trek having been inspired by it. Any ideas for ME chess? It'd have to be different in consept as well as in makeup. For in the history of ME the great battles usually were not even, and abstract strategy has to have 2 identical sides and chances for win. (Otherwise the game will not live historically long. Take two MASTER LEVEL chessplayers... give either one one soldier more then the other has and he wins every time... if he does not, he's not master.)

Ideas anyone?

[ December 14, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

[littlemanpoet]

If, Balin999, chess was invented
in Middle Earth, which, we guess,
is primeval history as Tolkien presented,
then it is indeed possible that chess
was invented by blue istari
from the east. But most fein
it came from Numenorean Avari
who in formation fought their campaigns.

[Bruce MacCulloch]

In it there are references to a game called fidchell, fidchell is the Gaeilic word for chess. As well as this boards have been unearthed which are marked out in a style very similar to chess.
Actually, the boards found are marked out more similiarly to the boards used in hneftafl, or tafl, a game played by the old Norse. The board set-up (seven by seven squares) and the markings of the corner squares, rather than alternating light and dark squares as in chess, seem to bear out the relation of the the medieval and pre-medieval fitchneal. The modern Irish Gaelic term is taken from the Ulster cycle and other works, but was only first used to refer to chessmen during the late Middle Ages.

On a side note, there is also a modern chess variant called fidchell that was invented in the late 60's or early 70's by Gary Gygax. (ten points if you know who that is - and fifteen if you can tell me where he first published the rules for the game) smilies/wink.gif

[ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

[Aiwendil]

Quoth Littlemanpoet:
it came from Numenorean Avari


Nicely rhymed, but who exactly are the Numenorean Avari? Sounds to me a bit like Hobbes's "round quadrangle" (i.e., it doesn't exist).

ten points if you know who that is - and fifteen if you can tell me where he first published the rules for the game

Just ten points for me then. He's the creator (well, one of the creators, properly speaking) of Dungeons and Dragons. Where did he publish the rules of "fidchell", and is there anywhere I can learn them?

[littlemanpoet]

Actually, Aiwendil, Numenorean Avari,
if I adequately recall my Eldari,
is a redundancy since Avari are Men
Numenoreans are too. So, then,
it was filler to make bad verse
worse. smilies/tongue.gif

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Where did he publish the rules of "fidchell", and is there anywhere I can learn them? He published them as an appendix to Epic of Ærth and you can find them here (http://www.chessvariants.com/large.dir/fidchell.html).

[Aiwendil]

Thank you.