About elves and immortality

[Opether]

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Iv'e just finished reading the Arwen &amp; Aragorn story in the Appendix and i have some questions.

Im not sure about that, but as i understand, the elves get to be immortal only if they , at some point, leave ME and sail to Valinor.

In that case, why didnt Arwen sail to Valinor AFTER Aragorn's death?
She said that there are no more ships that can take her, does that mean all the elves on ME were gone by that time?

and another question, at what point in their lives the elves sail to Valinor? how they decide when is the time to go?

Thanks for your answers


</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: About elves and immortality

Elves, by their nature, live as long as Arda, the world, exists, separate and apart from whether they journey to Valinor or not. Valinor itself is not deathless, and a mortal will die even in Valinor. This includes Bilbo, Frodo and Sam. Thus even if Arwen were able to travel to Valinor, she would have aged and died. However, mortals are not allowed to travel to Valinor except in certain unique cases such as the Ringbearers who were allowed to take ship into the west to find healing from their burdens. So once Arwen chose to be counted among men, she gave up any chance to pass into the West.

Welcome to the Barrow Downs, Opether!

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan</A> at: 8/7/01 7:04:32 pm

[Inziladun]

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Re: About elves and immortality

As to when Elves sail to Valinor, I guess the best answer is &quot;when they are ready&quot;. The Silvan Elves especially could be expected to linger quite a while in Middle Earth due to the fact that the sea-longing &quot;sleeps&quot; within them until they look on the Sea or, in the case of Legolas, hear the sound of seagulls. But in the end I think Galadriel was right and the Elves had to depart, or slowly dwindle away.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: About elves and immortality

Arwen was also a special case, being one of the Half Elven.

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[Elenhin]

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Re: About elves and immortality

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> She said that there are no more ships that can take her, does that mean all the elves on ME were gone by that time?<hr></blockquote>
I don't think so. Lorien and Rivendell were apparently deserted, but I'd say that some Silvan and Avarin kingdoms and tribes still existed, like Thranduil's realm of Northern Mirkwood.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> and another question, at what point in their lives the elves sail to Valinor? how they decide when is the time to go?<hr></blockquote>
In the LotR, it is said that the Elves &quot;grow weary&quot; of the world, in Morgoth's Ring (volume 10 of History of Middle-Earth) this weariness is explained.

While Elves do not really die, their bodies will still age and eventually &quot;fade&quot;. I understood this &quot;fading&quot; to mean that their bodies, which are of the corrupted matter of Arda, are incompatible with their spirits (coming from Iluvatar). Eventually this incompability and the corruption of the body would lead to the body &quot;dissolving&quot; or &quot;fading out&quot;, leaving the spirit &quot;free&quot; of its body. This would mean that the Elf would still be alive, but that he/she could no longer interact with the physical world.

This &quot;fading effect&quot; can be avoided, or at least slowed down, in Valinor. When the Elves &quot;grow weary&quot;, that is, start to feel the &quot;fading&quot; they leave for Valinor to avoid it. Note that the Three Rings of the Elves were also able to slow down the fading. That is why the High-Elves suddenly left Middle-Earth after the Rings lost their powers.

Now I'm not sure if my interpretation of the fading is absolutely correct... but it was something along these lines.

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[Opether]

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Re: About elves and immortality

So as i understand now, the only reason she had to make this
&quot;choise&quot; is because she was Half-Elven?

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: About elves and immortality

That seems to be a very good summary of the consensus.

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[Telchar]

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Re: About elves and immortality

She made the choise because she was in love with Aragorn or rather she changed her choise, as she had already lived like an elf for more that 2800 years - this grace was given to the Halfelven children of Elrond - that they should make their own choise. They could live in ME as elves only as long as their father stayed there - after that they either had to follow him over the sea or stay in ME and be counted among men. Elladan and Elrohir chose to go with their father, and Arwen chose to stay back because of her love for Aragorn.

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<marquee>It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes!!! ... Anar kaluva tielyanna!</marquee></p>

[Ferr]

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Re: About elves and immortality

If that's the case, at what point in their lifes, did half-elves had to make their choice either to become mortal or to stay immortal?

This has to be a great turning point in the lives of Peredhil, so great a change even, that their very existence in Arda changes. Do their spirits suddenly become earth-bound once they choose to become human?

Nai hiruvalyë Valimar! Nai elyë hiruva!</p>

[Telchar]

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Re: About elves and immortality

No - it has to do when Elrond chose to leave ME. At that point his children had to make their onw choise.

<marquee>It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes!!! ... Anar kaluva tielyanna!</marquee></p>

[Ferr]

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Re: About elves and immortality

You mean the choice of becoming Human or Elf, right?

Nai hiruvalyë Valimar! Nai elyë hiruva!</p>

[Telchar]

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Re: About elves and immortality

right!

<marquee>It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes!!! ... Anar kaluva tielyanna!</marquee></p>

[Inziladun]

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Re: About elves and immortality

Tolkien said in a letter written in 1954:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice and remain for a while.<hr></blockquote>

At the end of the War of the Ring Arwen had to make her choice immediately. If she wanted to marry Aragorn, she had to choose mortality. Her brothers were apparently under no such pressure. There must be a limit on how long they could linger in Middle Earth without choosing, however.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Chattizard]

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Re: About elves and immortality

Elves are always immortal, I think. I've not readen many Tolkien books, though. They can die only if they got killed, or if they don't want to live anymore. Arwen married Aragorn, and when he died, not wanted to live anymore, and died.

Sorry. Not a good post at all.

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[Telchar]

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Re: About elves and immortality

From HoME XII - The Tale of Years, Entry TA 2300.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...These children were three parts Elven race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they shoud live even as the Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choise either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal if they remained behind<hr></blockquote>

I can't interpret excactly when this was written, but if I remember correct JRRT didn't start making the Tale of Years before he was almost done with RoTK, which is at the same time that he wrote the letter Iziladun is reffering to. But Im pretty sure the Elladan and Elrohirs choise was bound up with Elronds. Maybe they were granted leave to stay in ME with their Grandfather (Celeborn) until he crossed the Sea.

<marquee>It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes!!! ... Anar kaluva tielyanna!</marquee></p>

[HerenIstarion]

In Arwen-Aragorn marriage there is also another idea involved - re-union of the bloodlines of the half elven race, Aragorn being descendant of Elros, so to gather all the remains of divine blood (Melian) in one house, thus destined to become the house of Kings of Men

[Telchar]

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Re: About elves and immortality

Good Point H-I - I never thought of that!

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[Opether]

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Re: About elves and immortality

So what will happen to an Half-Elf, if his father leaves ME when he is (not his father) lets say - 5000 years old.

Then he will have to make his choice, and if he chooses to be a mortal, then....he should die the next day
because he is 5000 years old, and he is a man now...
if you get my point....


</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Nay, he will go on from approximately 30-35 years of age, and will live also approximately 200 years more.

Meaning - elves look like humans in the bloom of their adulthood. Númenoreans (per instance, Aragorn) live more than 200 years.

Speculating: once half-elf becomes mortal, he goes on from that point (30-35) on to the life-span of Númenorean race.

[Telchar]

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Re: About elves and immortality

Well, there is very few cases, lets shortly outline them here:

A: Tuor and Idril, had Eärendil - he was half elven. His children were Elrond and Elros
Their mother was Elwing. Her Parents were Dior (half-man, quarter-elf, quarter-maiar) and Mimloth pure-elf.
Making Elving 2/8-man 5/8-elf and 1/8-maiar.
This makes Elrond and Elros 6/16-man 9/16-elf and 1/16-maiar
Elronds Children 6/32-man 25/32-elf and 1/32 maiar.

B: Aragorn and Arven - is another case, and still not - because Arwen chose to be counted among men, there for Eldarion and their daughters were pure mankind.

C: Beren and Luthien - read above - still Luthien chose mortality so she could be with Beren. So you might argue that Dior also was pure mankind.

D: Imrazor, the Numenorean and Mithrellas, elf of Lorien had Galador, first Lord of Amroth. He or his sons were NOT immortal, but mankind.

The special grace showed to Elrond and his children and Elros, but not his children was I think not only due to thier lineage, but also the deeds they and their fathers had done in the fight against Morgoth. --- There is no case like it.

You would have to have two different couples of elf and man, and then have thier children to have offspring together, to have a situation that answers your question. There is no such event in Tolkiens ME.
My guess is that they, as their parents would be countet among men.

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<marquee>It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes!!! ... Anar kaluva tielyanna!</marquee></p>

[Telchar]

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Re: About elves and immortality

Heren-Istarion said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> nay, he will go on from approximately 30-35 years of age, and will live also approximately 200 years more<hr></blockquote>

This is, although very qualified still, guess-work!
The only case we can compare it to is that of Arwen. She was grantet mortality, but would live until all that she had gained was lost!
If Aragorn had been killed 100 years before and they had been childless - I guess she too would have dwindled away very fast!



<marquee>It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes!!! ... Anar kaluva tielyanna!</marquee></p>

[HerenIstarion]

Agreed

Yet if Aragorn died before they wed, Arwen would have not chosen to be mortal.
Question of velocity of fading remains unclear

[Ferr]

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Re: About elves and immortality

What would you think about elves and their aging-process? I mean, a human becomes a true adult with +/- 20 years of age. In my RPG we consider that elves at least have to be 125 of age to become an adult (their 'childhood' lasts some 100 years) Not that they are physically children, but spiritually. You could also say that they are 'playfull' (much like the elves Bilbo first encountered in Mirkwood).
Main reason I have come up with, is that they live very secluded and protected from the dangers of Middle Earth. With adult elves I rule that they have seen so much of the world that they sort of 'lost their innocence' (they have seen true evil, poverty, greed etc.)

Is this at all correct?

Nai hiruvalyë Valimar! Nai elyë hiruva!</p>

[Telchar]

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Re: About elves and immortality

I think Toikien said 50 years before a elf was fully grown, but you'll have to get that confirmed by someone more gifted in memory <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=":D"> - Welcome to the downs Ferr - your RPG sounds very entusiatic - good luck <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

<marquee>It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes!!! ... Anar kaluva tielyanna!</marquee></p>

[Ferr]

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Re: About elves and immortality

Thank you,...It has become a project stretched out over some 3 years now. Main reason is that Iron Crown Enterprises quitted their line of RPG products (among that Middle Earth Role Playing). And now I have a dead-line. The movie is to come in cinema's in Holland in december. By that time I must have finished it (before the hype begins, complete with Mc Donalds actionfigures)<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

But I think I am going to do this illegally. I don't care about copyright etc (and I don't have the millions needed to throw at the bloodsucking Tolkien family), but logically I don't want to be prosecuted. Though I wonder if I can be prosecuted if I don't make any money from it.....hm, interesting...


Nai hiruvalyë Valimar! Nai elyë hiruva!</p>

[Telchar]

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Re: About elves and immortality

Actually I think I heard that Burger King had the rights to the action figures...
... Lord of The Onion-Rings - is a running joke here and elsewhere <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

<marquee>It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes!!! ... Anar kaluva tielyanna!</marquee></p>

[Fingolfin]

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Re: About elves and immortality

Immortality as defined by Tolkien in letter 212:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In this mythical prehistory immortality, strictly longevity co-extensive with the life of Arda, was pan of the given nature of the Elves; beyond the End nothing was revealed. Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature of Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Ilúvatar (God).<hr></blockquote>


Here is a clarification of Elven immortallity:


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Letter 212:

In the Elvish legends there is record of a strange case of an Elf (Miriel mother of Feanor) that tried to die, which had disastrous results, leading to the Fall of the High-elves. The Elves were not subject to disease, but they could be slain: that is their bodies could be destroyed, or mutilated so as to be unfit to sustain life. But this did not lead naturally to death: they were rehabilitated and reborn and eventually recovered memory of all their past: they remained identical. But Miriel wished to abandon being, and refused rebirth.<hr></blockquote>

They cannot die and if they are slain they are immediatly reborn or rehabilitated. This is the essence of Elven immortality and no one believes this to be true with the dwarves.

Letter 212:

And of the fate that Ilúvatar has set upon the children of Aulë beyond the Circles of the world Elves and men know nothing...

Ok so here tolkien establises that the fate of dwarves is beyond the circles of the world.

Letter 268:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gandalf was not dying', or going by a special grace to the Western Land, before passing on 'beyond the circles of the world'[as the hobbits were]:
he was going home, being plainly one of the 'immortals'<hr></blockquote>

And here it is establised that Gandalf was not going to &quot;pass beyond the circles of the World&quot; becasue he is immortal.

--------------------------------

Men are not tied to the circles of the World:


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Letter 131:
The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world.<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Appendix A; Aragorn's last words:

Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!&quot; <hr></blockquote>


Elves are tied to the world:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Letter 212:
In this mythical 'prehistory' immortality, strictly longevity co-extensive with the life of Arda, was pan of the given nature of the Elves;<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Letter 131:
The 'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change...

---
...The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Letter 181:
They are therefore 'immortal'. Not 'eternally', but to endure with and within the created world, while its story lasts.<hr></blockquote>


All This is sumarized by this quote from Letter 186::

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the world in the hearts of a race 'doomed' to leave and seemingly lose it; the anguish in the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to leave it, until its whole evil-aroused story is complete. <hr></blockquote>

And it is clearly stated that Dwarve leave it:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And of the fate that Ilúvatar has set upon the children of Aulë beyond the Circles of the world Elves and men know nothing... (letter 2q2)<hr></blockquote>

Elves do not die(their fate is tied with that f the wolrd they only die when the World does) Tolkien stated this clearly and unambigously and that Dwarves and Men do die(they go beyond the circles of the world and past that we don't know becasue all that is said about the area past the circles of the world is said by Morgoth: (UT part 1)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> he Circles of the World I will not pursue them,&quot; said Morgoth. &quot;For beyond the Circles of the World there is Nothing. ) <hr></blockquote>


</p>

[whiteone]

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Re: About elves and immortality

yep slowly die or live in another place

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[Fingolfin]

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???

That was not what I said, I suggest you reread my quotes and argument

</p>

[Halbarad]

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Re: ???

An important part of understanding the lives of elves for me was Glorfindel. Glorfindel in LOTR was the same Glorfindel that was killed fighting Gothmog (correct me if I'm wrong). Tolkien concluded that he returned from Valinor back to ME for some reason.(See book of Shadows) So even though his body was killed his spirit did not die and he was 'reincarnated' into his body. Therefore an elf cannot die because their spririt will always remain. An exception to this rule is Feanor. His spirit was so fiery that it could not be reborn,(Sil) so what happened to him I don't know. But elves stay alive in some form or another exceptthe halfelvens who choose to stay with man.

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[red]

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Re: ???

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> They cannot die and if they are slain they are immediatly reborn or rehabilitated.<hr></blockquote>Not immediately. They gotta do their time in Mandos first. And bad boys such as Fëanor don't get out till the very End.

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[Telchar]

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Re: ???

red is right. The spirit has nothing to do with getting reincarnetad only your deeds. An elf fea cant leave Mandos and inhabit/create a hroa before it is judged fit to do so - if this ever will happen to Fëanor I dont know.

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[Halbarad]

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Thanks red

Thanks for clearing that up. And you're right. Feanor was a bad bad boy...

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Feanor!

Feanor was like Mae West.


The little old hobbit sat back and waited for someone of equally antiquated memory to guess the antiquated punch line.

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[Galadrielle Annatar]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Feanor!

What about the other elves that weren't bad and didn't get reincarnated? Finwe and Finrod and Fingolfin... some more people beginning with f... <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

Or did they just go back to live in Valinor?


</p>

[Voronwe]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Feanor!

Finrod Felagund may actually have been reincarnated (though perhaps he wasn't allowed to leave Valinor). This is indicated by the sentence in Beren and Luthien (working from memory), &quot;But Finrod walkes with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldarmar.&quot; As to the others, it isn't stated anywhere as far as I know.


-Voronwë
<font size="2">Down the sunlit breath of Day's fiery death
He sped from Westerland.</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Feanor!

In Morgoth's Ring, it is stated that Finwe remained in Mandos, in part out of grief for the evil wrought but primarily to allow Miriel to leave Mandos. For those unfamiliar with the tale, elves marry for life and are not allowed to remarry if a spouse dies because that spouse will eventually be re-embodied and permitted to leave Mandos creating a situation where an elf has 2 spouses. Miriel did not wish to return from Mandos (ever) and, after appealing to Manwe, Finwe was allowed to remarry Indis. After he was slain, Finwe elected to allow Miriel to return to life, giving up his ability to do so. This very short summary does not do the essay, which is rich is philosophy, law and traditions, any justice. Morgoth's Ring is highly recommended reading.

I know of no reason that Fingolfin would not have been allowed to leave Mandos after serving his time.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Nils]

Telchar, I think Toikien said 50 years before a elf was fully grown, but you'll have to get that confirmed by someone more gifted in memory - Welcome to the downs Ferr - your RPG sounds very entusiatic - good luck From Myths Transformed pg 426

On Earth while an elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3000 years...


As far as the Reincarnation thing goes, Tolkien's later view was that the Valar would recreate a body for each fea identical to the hroa that it used to have. In the 'Converse of Manwe and Eru', Eru tells commands Manwe to recreate the Elven hroa and that the fea carries with it a blue print for the hroa.

[ August 01, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]

[TaliesinWest]

I understood this "fading" to mean that their bodies, which are of the corrupted matter of Arda, are incompatible with their spirits (coming from Iluvatar). Eventually this incompability and the corruption of the body would lead to the body "dissolving" or "fading out", leaving the spirit "free" of its body.

Wait, Men are children of Iluvatar too; are they not? Why do they not fade? Is it that they die too soon for the "fading" process to begin?

Also, on the subject of the One Ring giving long life: Did wearing it once give a mortal everlasting immortality, or did the mortal have to keep it with him? If not, why did Gollum continue to live so long after the Ring was lost to him?

[Nils]

Wait, Men are children of Iluvatar too; are they not? Why do they not fade? Is it that they die too soon for the "fading" process to begin? First off, I don't believe their fading has to do with incapatability. It has to do with the natural rate of decay in Middle-earth, about 144 times faster than in the Blessed Land.

Yes, men generally don't fade because they die before their bodies fade. There are exceptions, such as the 9.

Although the Mouth of Sauron did not decay, so my understanding of something must be off, or the Mouth of Sauron was an inconsistancy.
Also, on the subject of the One Ring giving long life: Did wearing it once give a mortal everlasting immortality, or did the mortal have to keep it with him? If not, why did Gollum continue to live so long after the Ring was lost to him? When Bilbo gave up his ring, he started to age. Even so, it was not immediate. Bilbo continued to live beyond the years that Hobbits normally live.

As far as Gollum goes, I can see two different possibilities why he did not physically age as quickly as Gollum:

Gollum still had a part of play, so Eru kept him young.

or

Gollum had the ring longer, therefore its effect would remain longer.

[ August 01, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

Could someone explain about Feanor and "doing time" I'm somewhat at a loss.

[Nils]

In short, Tolkien believed that Elves were to be immortal, but because of Melkor's corruption of Middle-earth they could die. When they died, Elven spirits were to go to The Halls of Mandos where they were to purge themselves of any evil that their corrupted bodies added to their souls in life. It is very similar to the Catholic concept of purgatory.

Once the evil has been purged, the Valar were to create new bodies for the Elven souls to enter so that they may live once again.

Feanor was so screwed up and hateful that I don't think he was ever able to purge the evil from his soul.

[Socialist]

No, I think Feanor saw the error of his ways. He is not to be reincarnated until the Dagor Dagorlath. That's his punishment, it doesn't mean he is still hateful and screwed up.

[Nils]

Feanor's hate was very strong. Do you have any textual support for the idea that Feanor's time in Mandos was punitive in nature?

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Do you have any textual support for the idea that Feanor's time in Mandos was punitive in nature?

I'd rather say purgative, but this is a subtle distinction. It can also be considered as punitive smilies/wink.gif

When Glorfindel of Goldolin was slain his spirit (...) would be obliged at once to retunr to the land of the Valar. Then he would go to Mandos and be judged, and would then remain in the 'Halls of Waiting' until Manwë granted him release. (...) It was therefore the duty of the Valar (...) to restore them to incarnate life, if they desire it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed by Manwë if the fëa while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.
Last Writings; HoME 12, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

(Bold is mine).

[Nils]

But this 'restoration' could be delayed by Manwë if the fëa while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.
This is exactly why I don't believe Feanor could ever be rehoused. He still harboured malice against others.