Original elves still left

[Baran]

How many of the elves who awoke in the east of wichever subgroup do you reckon was still in Middle Earth at the end of the third age?
I cant imagine all of them being dead...?

[StarJewel]

I would imagine there would be some Sindar elves left in Middle Earth. Probably not many, but I don't think all of them sailed to the Undying Lands.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

awoke in the east
...on the shore of Cuiviénen smilies/smile.gif
Most of the first elves alive must be in Valinor...if there was a list of all the 'first' elves it might be easy to say who is alive and where.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

(Edit: As I seem to have totally misinterpreted this thread in this post, cosider it. :rolleyes smilies/smile.gif

[ August 13, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Måns]

Hey all I'm back and going, anyway on elves. I am totally unsure of this since it was a while since the library started sending em letters about having to return HoME but if my memory does not fail me there were around fifty elves that awoke. This means that the time between their journey to Valinor and the original awakening allowing the growth of a sizeable population. The eldest, pater patratus, awoke a few hours before the others together with their spouses in some defined order I cannot remember either, would someone that has got their hands on a HoME edition check that up, please?

Måns

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

The legend of the awakening says that only 144 elves awoke at Cuiviénen. Three of them, Imin, Tata and Enel, awoke first, whith their wifes, and they awoke the rest of the elves they found spleeping. The people that followed Imin were the origin of the Vanyar; the followers of Tata, of the Noldor, and the peopleo of Enel, of the Teleri.
And their numbers were (including Imin, Tata and Enel):
Vanyar: 14 elves
Noldor: 56 elves
Teleri: 74 elves.

[Roccotari Eldandil]

Amarië--what's the source for that? It sounds cool; I want to read it!

The only original Elf that's actually mentioned as still being alive is Ingwë, a Vanya and High King of all the Elves.

[Tar Elenion]

The tale of the Awakening (Cuivienyarna) can be found as an appendice to Quendi and Eldar in War of the Jewels (HoME 10).

Also, Ingwe was not one of the original Elves who Awoke at Cuivienen (the so-called Unbegotten). He was born there to unnamed parents.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I only wanted to add that to what Tar-Elenion has said, that this legend is very beautiful, and I highly recommend it. It is worth reading it! smilies/wink.gif

[Morgoth the Great]

actually. i think most of them would be dead. if you think about it, they had a lot of wars with melkor, and thus the original elves would of been slain in his wars against Valinor. it's just how i feel, but there cant of been that many originals, like with the dwarves

[lore_master]

Cirdan was one of the original first born wasnt he?

[Tar Elenion]

Unlikely unless Cirdan was the father or grandfather etc. of Thingol, Olwe and Elmo.
As he is their kin, he is likely some sort of cousin and thus has parents as well.

[ August 14, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Also, do not forget the 'fading' factor. Extremely unlikely any of the 'original' Elves would be left in Middle Earth because of that. If there were any, then only in Valinor, where the 'fading' is supressed.

-Aredhel

[mark12_30]

Vanyar: 14 elves
Noldor: 56 elves
Teleri: 74 elves.

The original numbers are interesting-- I wonder what Tolkien had in mind when he came up with these numbers.

[the guy who be short]

I wonder what Tolkien had in mind when he came up with these numbers."And they shall breed like rabbits..."

[mark12_30]

I was thinking more along the lines of, a projection of the future percentages of skills and inclinations within the elven population.

[the guy who be short]

Ah, you failed to specify, you see. :p

Well...

Then befell the first sundering of the Elves. For the kindred of Ingwë, and the most part of the kindreds of Finwë and Elwë, were swayed by the words of their lords, and were willing to depart and follow Oromë; and these were known ever after as the Eldar, by the name that Oromë gave to the Elves in the beginning, in their own tongue.We know that all the Vanyar went to Valinor, but some of the Noldor and Teleri stayed behind.

The Vanyar's host was said to be the smallest. That makes sense, but I didn't realise it was that small - 14 out of 144 (note the importance of that number - the Eldar worked in 12s, 12 12s are 144) or 9.7%. We can presume, then, that only a tenth of all the Quendi were Vanyar.

Overall, then, 10% of all Elves were Vanyar.
38% were Of Noldorin kind, that is to say, they were either Noldor, or Moriquendi of the same type (and presumably good craftsmen?).
51.% were Teleri or Moriquendi of the same sort.

We can't really work anything else out. We have no idea how many Noldorin and Telerin Quendi became Moriquendi, though I'd presume it was a large part of the Telerin and a small part of the Noldorin Quendi.

In "Of the Flight of the Noldor" it is said The Teleri has less strength [than the Noldor]Can we take this to mean less people? If so, that would imply that a very large proportion of Telerin Elves stayed in Middle Earth - at least 25%, and that would be if none of the Noldorin Elves stayed behind (which is false). But that's a matter of interpretation, and makes more sense when we remember that the Noldor had all come prepared for battle, whereas the Teleri weren't prepared for a fight. I don't think much more can be said, certainly not about the Eldar in particular. The numbers reflect on the total population of the Quendi instead.

All this has been worked out on the presumption that the numbers Tolkien came up with are still relevant.