Still forming your own images of Middle-earth, or stuck with Elijah and co.?

[The Green Ringwraith]

I can still form my own images of the terrain and I prefer to do that, and I'm glad I can. But whenever the Fellowship comes to mind, I think of the people that play them in the movie and what they look like. And that's not all bad, is it? *wawrm fuzziness*

[charly]

Well, for me it certainly depends on the character or place. I was totally sure Legolas had brown hair, and the hobitts all seemed strangely big to me in the movie, so I still keep that image. On the other hand, Cate Blanchett&Christopher Lee matched my imaganation of Galadriel&Saruman perfectly, so I sort of "copied" them in my image. I totally think it´s all right to use the movie characters, especially if you don´t have your own clear picture.

[Rimbaud]

That's a reasonably interesting question. I prefer books to celluloid by far and always will, however when PJ started work on this project I knew that I would end up seeing it, although I would be disappointed, inevitably. Indeed, so I was. I had, decades before the recent movies, definite ideas of what people and places looked like and how they spoke and inter-reacted. Seeing the film was similar to seeing an old friend who has aged rather poorly. You can see the structure of their face and how they looked when you knew them before but there is a layer of something alien shrouding them and distorting the picture.

I shall continue to create my own pictures; but I confess to have been affected by the images I saw on the screen.

[Elenna]

Well, in defense of the movie (which I loved), Peter Jackson said many times that this was just HIS interpretation of the books, and that he couldn't please everyone.

On the other hand, my view of Frodo was NOT teenage heartthrob. I was picturing someone a little less...adorable, I suppose. I did think that most of the characters (Gandalf, Sam, Pippin, Saruman, Galadriel, Aragorn, Boromir... everyone except Frodo, Legolas and Arwen) were really great. I was disappointed in Legolas mainly because I could tell that from the moment he entered, it was going to become a "hot guy" scene and movie. And Arwen should never have been a shieldmaiden.

But still, PJ said that he couldn't please everyone.

[Anunia]

I saw the movie before I read the book (this is sadly, but it's true)... So, I can say that when I read the books, I already had a picture in my mind about all the characters and places. But, this image was adjusted after I read the book, so I can say I have my own image of ME.

I have one BIG trouble. In my country, LoTR was published only this year... The Hobbit, Silmarillon, and the Unfinished Tales are not translated in my language. I woud read them in english, but I can't find them anywhere. I am so sad about this, cause all the people on this forum know so much about JRRT's works and about ME and I don't. smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif I want to read these books!!!

[Arwen Imladris]

Nope, I still see Elijah and everyboody, well to some extent. The new characters that are introduced I still see my own way.

Anunia: Where are you from?

[piosenniel]

Here is a link to an excellent discussion concerning this topic:

Movie characters (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001312)

[Mister Underhill]

This was one of the rallying cries of the anti-movie crowd in the months leading up to its premiere: “The movie will overwhelm and destroy your cherished mental images from the books!” Well, months later I’m happy to report that my mental images are still well intact. I enjoyed many aspects of the movie, would have liked to have seen others done differently, and was flat disappointed by others, but what happened was basically what I thought would happen – I’ve taken the things I liked from the movie and discarded the rest. For instance, though many have raved about the beautiful New Zealand locations, I have to confess that many of them underwhelmed me. I still picture images which are no doubt influenced by the lush greenness of my native Pennsylvania for many of the locations – New Zealand seemed, for the most part, a bit too scrubby and rocky for my Middle-earth.

I too, retain an image of Frodo that’s less innocent and a bit older and “good-natured rather than beautiful”, as well as a Sam that’s more simple than simple-minded, even though I think the performances were generally good in both cases. It never occurred to me that Legolas would ever become some sort of teen-idol dreamboat – and still doesn’t when I read. I liked the portrayal of Aragorn and thought his costume was especially good, though my Boromir is completely different than Bean – though again, good performance. I thought Gandalf was pretty spot-on.

That’s a vivid analogy, Stephanos, though I would bend it slightly for my own experience – seeing the movie was like seeing a drawing of an old-friend by a journeyman artist. You can see that it’s supposed to be your friend – the nose and the sweep of the cheekbones are just right, but the expression in the eyes is off and there’s something not quite right about the set of the mouth. I can say, hey, neat picture but a bit off, without having to feel like my old friend has turned into a melted basset-hound version of himself. smilies/wink.gif

[Rimbaud]

Underhill: lol

You make reading this forum an immensely enjoyable business.

[Bêthberry]

*cough* Actually, I liked the way the film depicted Boromir's fall and forgiveness much better than the book's. It is one of the few places where I though the movie enhanced the story. Perhaps this is because Boromir's death has been moved to the end of FOTR rather than being lost in the opening of TTT. It has become dramatically more focussed and provided vivid evidence of how powerful the ring is. *cough*

Movie Legolas (with all the drooling) may have permanently, I fear, destroyed any interest I had in the book character. Book Galadriel remains far and away safe from any taint by Movie Galadriel.

Much as I think the movie was well done as a fan fic, as Mark12_30 put it, there is still so much more in the books to explore....

Bethberry

[Calencoire]

I never got a chance to form my own visions of the characters! The books I was given have scenes from the movie on the front and little pictures of each actor from the movie as the character on the back, so whenever I thought of the character, I thought of the actor that plays him in the movie.

[Mister Underhill]

Stephanos -- what a generous thing to say, to which I can only respond: likewise (despite the arrogance implicit in your even bothering to post in the first place smilies/wink.gif).

[Birdland]

Bethberry, I have to agree with you regarding Boromir. I myself am not good at "picturing" characters, and the image I had of Boromir has always been vague "Conan the Barbarian"-ish" He was also one of my least favorite characters.

Sean Bean, I think, did a wonderful job of instilling some humanity into the too-prideful Gondorian, and I have much more sympathy for Tolkien's flawed warrior now. And I agree that PJ's fiddling with the time line worked for me.

(Cough) Say, shouldn't this thread be in the "Movie" forum?

[Galadrie1]

I hadn't even finished reading FotR when I went to see the movie, but I don't picture the actors in my head when I read it. My picture of Frodo was totally different. When I saw the movie, it took me a while to realize it was him. And when I read the books, I simply cannot picture Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn, even though I've seen him do it before. Gimli looks different in my mind, though I'm afraid Legolas looks a bit like Orlando Bloom. Celeborn and Galadriel are totally different, as is Elrond, Gandalf, Sam, Merry, Pippin, and Bilbo. (actually, my mental picture of elves was so weird from reading the Hobbit -- I pictured them as these short little faerie things that skipped around singing...)

[steve]

i still, when i picture Lotr in my head, i think of it form my own imagionation, not totially form the Fotr movie, like SAMWISE merry and pippin, were partly how i imagined them, but a lil smaller, but i allways pictured frodo as a little chubby cute like hobbit, not a short teenage human, and most of the images i got of my lotr, are from the hildebrant brother's artwork

[Ravenna]

I thought most of the characters were pretty good and fairly close to my mental images, especially, Aragorn, Gandalf and Saruman.
Galadriel? well, not even close ,apart from the hair colour and I wasn't that keen on Elrond for that matter, not really sure why.The hobbits I found were a little off from my visions, adn Boromir, while not physically how I saw him, I liked Sean Bean's portrayal.

[Dimaldaeon]

Well the Hobbits were too big for one thing. They are meant to be between three and four feet tall, but some amadán in casting read about how Merry and Pippin were over four foot five (hello, Ent draught)and decided to make all Hobbits a lot taller. Is it just me or did Elrond look a bit too wrinkly.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

lol, wrinkly! Like an old prune! And I thought elves weren't supposed to age.

One of my major mental conflicts (and there are many), as Galadrie1 said, was that the elves in the Hobbit were decided more frisky and silly, climbing trees and singing "tra-la-la-lally". Can anyone imagine the elves of LotR doing that? (Elrond shimmies up a tree, belting out the chorus and tugging at his robe as it rides up around his knees *eeew*)

[Ithaeliel]

I read the books after I saw the movie... *cowers from disdainful forum veterans* but my images of some characters changed after I read the books. Frodo I imagined to be not as youthful in appearance, as he was supposed to be fifty years old *cough*. Ian McKellen played a perfect Gandalf, and that's my image of him. I imagine Arwen to be more... I don't know, stern in appearance than Liv Tyler's Arwen. Legolas could be very slightly different, but only in facial structure. I suppose I unconsciously filtered out the mental images from the movie that I did not like and kept the ones that I did. I'm happy to say that the movie did not scar my mental images of the book characters for life.

[arelendil]

bad luck for me! my impression of elves didn't add up to the movie. the book made me thing of something grace and elegant and no matter how much orlando runs around trying to be light footed, and cat like as he puts it, it doesn't work. yes he is good looking but i think he's to young! isn't he like 2931 years old when he joined the fellowship. okay elves don't age but there was still no age in his wisdom or something. it escapes me now! i know i had a pt when i began this!!

[Thulorongil]

Even though the way lots of things were in the movie is really similar to how lots of people imagined (especially the landscapes, of course that was New Zealand not PJ...), having your own image of it all is important. The movies are just how some people saw it, and even they couldn't do everything they thought of.

[Niphredil Baggins]

Legolas has short, dark hair! Long hair is impractical in battle (I know it's impractical in a lot of situations - my hair is twice as long as Orlando's wig) I wouldn't like an orc grab me by the hair.

As for Frodo... hobbits have brown eyes. Possibly golden-brown, or greenish-brown, but certainly not contact-lenses-blue.

Just my mental images, feel free to keep yours.

[Davin]

I'm kind of in the middle with this. I started reading LotR only a few days before I saw the movie (I honestly had no idea what LotR was before I saw a commercial on t.v.) so I had already created a basic image of some of the characters when I first walked into the theatre. But when I saw the movie, I was surprized a little because most of the characters looked almost just as I imagined them. The hobbits resembled my own imagined ones, and the most of the fellowship as well. I was most pleased with Gandalf and Saruman however. And Elrond pee'd me off, 'Matrix Man' is a good actor....but not a good Elrond. His hair looked awfully funny.

But, luckily, I have already finished TTT and RoTK, so I have been able to use my imagination much more with the other books, and the new characters/landscapes. But like someone else has said already on this forum, I find that I still picture different landscapes when I read about ME. I liked the ones used in the movie..but for some reason they aren't the same for me when I read.

I too though Sean Bean played an excellent Boromir. I almost like the movie Boromir better than the book Boromir, save for the fact that books always offer more to a character, even if the actor for the character is great.

[Merri]

Hmm . . . The way they did the scenery in the movie (ie: Rivendell, Lothlorien, Weathertop, etc.) was just how imagined the places to look like, so I have no conflicts there, but I still have my own images of the characters. ie: I imagine Frodo a little rounder around the middle, and other little details like that.

[Davin]

Yeh...the hobbits seemed to almost all be too skinny. If they do infact eat that many meals a day, they should really be packing on the pounds.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

I find that I still picture different landscapes when I read about ME. I liked the ones used in the movie..but for some reason they aren't the same for me when I read.

I thought that the NZ landscape was very raw and young-looking, like some kind of frontier. But my Middle Earth was very ancient, and its rough edges had been mostly smoothed by time and so many events that had crawled across its surface, i.e. cities built and crumbled to dust, wars won and lost, great deeds and massacres. NZ just couldn't quite accomplish that broad sense of ancient and mysterious civilizations, the huge tapestry that we glimpse in LotR's background.

[Eruwen]

I can see the landscapes in my own way when I read the books. Although, alot of my "pictures" aren't even close to what they are supposed to look like. Like in Moria, I, for some reason, pictured it as this huge outdoor scene that was really dark no matter what time it was. And the only time they could see anything around them was when Gandalf shone a light from his staff. Wow was I wrong.

I can't wait until I see Gondor. I have another picture in my head of what that city looks like.

But as for the characters, I just knew them from the movie characters. Of course, it would have helped if I didn't have the version of LOTR with the movie characters on the cover. smilies/wink.gif

[Elenna]

I thought that Sean Bean was absolutely brilliant as Boromir. In the book (one of its few flaws), Boromir is sort of the bad guy in the fellowship, even from the beginning. In the movie, they portrayed him as a good guy corrupted by the ring, not a corrupted guy driven over the edge by said ring.

And I loved it when he was teaching the hobbits to fight. That was possibly the best moment in the movie, because it shows that, if it weren't for the ring, all of these people could get along well, and Boromir's a pretty nice guy.

As for Elrond, well, I thought he did a very good job. It isn't his fault that he was in The Matrix. Gotta pay the bills, you know. And for someone who has been alive for thousands upon thousands of years, he is comparatively non-wrinkly.

[vanwalossien]

Well, I'm just 15, and I finished the book only two weeks before I saw the movie, so you'd think I'd get stuck with Elijah and Orlando, but I'm not. But PJ has been good, I think most of them are pretty much like I imagined them, except for Frodo (too cute... And the hobbits are too tall...), Arwen (she just isn't right.) and Elrond (he will always be the creepy agent Smith to me..). The best ones, I think, is Sean/Sam and Billy/Pippin + Ian/Bilbo

[Elenna]

Ooh! I thought of a new analogy, along the lines of Stephanos's.

It is like an artist paints a picture of your friend, and all of the basic features are right; the face shape, the eye color, the shape of the mouth...

But they forgot the twinkle in the eyes, the number of freckles, all of the tiny little things that you notice because you know them well, but people who don't know the friend well wouldn't notice.

[Manwe Sulimo]

I first read The Lord of the Rings when I was 11, so I never really visualized the characters as anything. Now, it's 4 years later (lol), and I can finally begin to compare characters to real-world people, and, I'm sorry to say, I am using the actors from the movies. They all did a great job portraying their respective characters (yes, even Elijah and Orlando), and I see no reason to change my mental picture. I find Elijah Woods much more preferable than the (seemingly) middle-aged hobbit on the cover of my edition of Fellowship. My only problem is the whole "shieldmaiden Arwen" thing (she should've been more regal and majestic) and the fact that all the Elves of Lothlórien look almost identical (I mean, Celeborn and Haldir could've been twins, for Eru's sake!).

[Duramarthiel]

I think PJ did mostly a good job, the only people who didn't look like how I pictured then were Aragorn and Frodo.

Now Frodo is supposed to be older, a bit more... err round... less cute. I was surprised, but it wasn't a bad surprise. I didn't have a problem with it really, Elijah did a GREAT job of turning himself into a hobbit and his acting was great.

I pictured Aragorn to be more Built. Sorry to say, Viggo is a lil scrawny to be the tough Ranger Tolkien described. Maybe even tanner, as in more weather beaten. Even more handsome, after all, he's the king!

Ah, after seeing the movies as many times as I have now, I can now understand PJ's vision, and realize that it wasn't as bad after all.

[Thranduil]

Time to throw in my own humble opinion.

First off, I loved the movie and it in now way ruined the books for me.

Second, I see the books and the movie(s) through a different mind set. When I watch it, everything looks/fits perfect (to me at least). I love books, often times more than movies, but I also love it when a book is made (well by the way) into a movie. But when I read the books, it's a totally different look/feel. I can't describe it; it's just different for me. The movie doesn't affect my imagination when I'm reading and I don't get ****ed if the movie has something/excludes something from the book.

[The-Elf-Herself]

Well I read the books before the movie came out. However the book was the official movie one, with pictures on the back. So I was maybe a little tainted, but after watching the movie multiple times I still retain my own images. Movie Galadriel and "my" book Galadriel are almost identical; it is the same with Gandalf and Boromir. Arwen and Legolas looked a little too "modelish" to be "true" elves, but they line up pretty good{although my Legolas does NOT have dark eyebrows and a sissy voice}. I thought the hobbits were also reasonably well casted, although I would have made them a bit thicker around the waist at the start of the journey. The one person I could not see was Elrond. In the movie every time I see him I expect him to don sunglasses and start shooting. smilies/wink.gif

[galadwen29]

i love the books, i love the movie. pj must have the same mind as me because i saw middle earth the way it is on film. probably because the shire reminds of where i live.

yes when i read the books now i see the fellowship as they are in the film. however in parts like tom bombadil my imagination runs wild. in the two towers i see teh fellowship as they are in the film, but in new places like shelob's lair and Rohan my imagination runs wild again.

smilies/wink.gif

[Kaszul]

One thing that the movie lacked, and this has been stated before, was all the little details that made things unique. Example:

Gil-Galad, I really didn't picture him as a brunette. And I was rather dissapointed that they gave him a naginata than a spear.

Narsil, did anyone notice that Narsil looked exactly like every other sword used by men except for Boromir's?

Yes, the Arwen this kinda' made me mad, only because they cut out Glorfindel smilies/mad.gif , but her scene at the fords was way underdone. One of the most interesting things about the fight there is how the book depicts Glorfindel, as he is in the other realm and elven lord of terrible might.

And finally, Glamdring. I've always loved the fabled swords of Goldolin and they way they glowed as if anticipating some measure of revenge for the sack of that fair city. And in Moria, I wanted so to see Gandalf wielding Glamdring against the orcs as it glowed coldly. Nope!, we got none of that.

These may sound like little details that are trivial, but they were always the thing I loved about how Tolkien created ME. The amazing about of minute detail he put into it was amazing. And though I loved the movie, I can't accept the rather identical nature of it.

[Varda's Wilwarin]

Well I thought Viggo was was everything I had dreamt my Aragorn to be until my sister pointed out that he looked like Jesus...She totally ruined it for me smilies/mad.gif

[Anarya SilverBranch]

Everyone in the movie is basically how I pictured everyone in the book except for Galadriel. No offense to anyone, but did Galadriel look anorexic to anyone else. She was extremely pale and her cheeks looked sunken in somehow. Well she looked exactly like this anorexic girl in my school and that completely freaked me out.

[Amarie]

More vital to me when I read the books than the way the charactors look in my mind is the way they sound. Since watching the movie(which by the way ticked me off until I was able to separate it from the book) I do see the movie charactors at certain moments in the book. I Don't mind that. Sometimes I hear the actors' voices and that does bother me a little, but those parts are few and brief. It was quite upset about the omission of Gildor Inglorion when I first watched the movie, but now I think I am thabnkful for it. Deep down, I want to know what he would have been like in the movie though.
I said this morning at another forum: It's funny how the movie could not take the boook away from me as so many other adaptions have. One the whole,I read the book, PJ and his attempts do not exist.

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Amarie ]

[bombur]

I think the most failed charachters in the movie were those who were not humans... I mean, they are played by just normal humans...

Aragorn and Boromir (who is my fawourite of the fellowship) are exactly as I have alwys thought them to be. So are Gandalf and Saruman.

Not even all the non-humans were failed. Dwarwes were rather good... its easy to conseal inadequaciues under that enormous beard. Elronds player brought well out his bitternes and tiredness to the world and looked as a half elf should.

But...

Hobbits were not stubby and plumb enough.

Legolas was not tall enough.

Note to Liv Tylor, you might be pretty, but you are not Arwen.

Note to Cate Blanchett... It is not easy to play someone who is threehundred times your age.

Oh the inadequasies of humans trying to play eleves and hobbits.


JH

[Neferchoirwen]

Still am forming my own images. I've only seen the movie once, so, so far, the images of the actors have blurred (except when I finally get to watch it on DVD a few months form now).

Legolas has reformed in my mind, now. And yes, come to think of it, Aragorn does look like Jesus Christ...But I kinda like guys who look like that (like the guys who work at my favorite cd place).

I really don't mind the problem with the movie disrupting the imaginations of the readers. As for E Wood, I think he did a good job. Judging from this project that he participated in, I think that he was quite meticulous about deciding to make this movie. Elijah's image just blended in with the clear protrayal of his counterpart in the books.

In spite of the way the film executed the whole thing, I'd say reading it is much worth the experience. The mind makes an interpretation of its own, and Middle Earth becomes your own home--personalized into your own style.

[Mithuial]

I think that I'll never be able to quite go back to that time before the movie when I had to rely completely on my own imagination for the images of ME, but whenever I'm reading it now, and I find myself lost in it, sometimes my hobbits will more resemble what they looked like before I saw the movie, and Lothlorien will look like I always thought it should look. What, for you, is the character and place in the movie that are closest to your imagination? Sam is the character for me, and hobbiton is the place.

[OjosVerdes]

To be honest, I had just started the books when I saw the movie, but I most definitely have my own images. My pet peeve has to be Elijah Wood. He did a good job, but he's just not right. For one thing, Frodo's eyes are brown...and he should be..well..rounder. As for Legolas, he's really the only one I had trouble shaking the movie picture of. Not because I thought he looked right(I didn't), but for some reason I couldn't picture Legolas. I've finally managed to work up a mental picture, though, and suffice it to say it looks nothing like Orlando Bloom.

The rest of the hobbits looked just about right, and the elves were OK(except for shieldmaiden Arwen...ick), but to throw in my own version of the 'portrait' analogy, it was like you were seeing someone that looked a lot like a friend of yours -- enough like that friend that you might call out their name, but realize as the turned around that it wasn't them at all.

As for locations, well, most of them were gorgeous. I didn't really have a problem with most of the locations -- excepting Lothlórien, which didn't seem 'majestic' enough -- but it's true that they don't seem to have the sense of age, of having 'seen it all', that I get from the places in the books.

Mithuial -- well, that would have to be Bilbo, and Hobbiton. Hobbiton was the only place that looked just the way I imagine it. To expand on the question, what character and place looked least like you imagine them? Legolas and Lórien, for me.

[Bill Ferny]

The movie didn't really affect any of my mental pictures from the book. However, I can't remember of ever having a truly personnal mental picture. I read the books so long ago, and have re-read them so many times in the interim, that over the course of time my mental picture has been significantly influenced by many, many illustrators. John Howe, Alan Lee, Ted Nasmith, Roger Garland, to name just a few, plus Tolkien's own illustrations, have helped build a picture of Middle Earth in my mind's eye. Peter Jackson's illustration is just one more influence, and a pretty good one at that.

As my wife says a movie based on a book is good or bad in reference to whether or not it insults the book or not. PJ did a good job in not insulting the book.

[Mithuial]

Lorien is definately the least like I imagined it. As far as characters go I guess I can probably say that Elrond is the least like I imagined him. Maybe my Matrix agent Smith associations kept getting in the way. lol. But I think that the way Hugo plays Elrond is a little too grumpy or something.

[Diamond18]

For all you who think Elijah Wood is wrong because Frodo should look older and rounder, read this:

As time went on, people began to notice that Frodo also showed signs of good 'preservation': outwardly he retained the appearance of a robust and energetic hobbit just out of his tweens. 'Some folk hve all the luck,' they said; but it was not until Frodo approached the usually more sober age of fifty that they began to think it queer.

So Frodo should look younger than he is.

I can say I never noticed anything wrong with Legolas. Yes, I read the book before watching the movie, and no, I don't think Orlando Bloom is a heartthrob. To be honest, the thought never occured to me before I joined this site, even though I'm an 18-year-old female. I guess Legolas has always been fuzzy in my mind, so OB filled a void. But it does seem to me that all Tolkien characters had long hair (or bushy, if a hobbit) so I'd have to disagree with whoever said Legolas had short brown hair.

I have to admit I had considerable trouble with picturing Lorien in my own mind. I just could not do it. But as far as losing my own images I did have previously, I'd have to say that I had a different picture of Pippin. He had to look younger than the others, and he looks the oldest. But, by the time I finished watching the movie, I could not regain my original picture. Now I only see Billy Boyd even if I'm reading The Two Towers or Return of the King. This doesn't bother me, though, because I thought that ALL the actors did such a good job that even if their features didn't mesh, their performance did.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Diamond18--

You cited the quote below as an example that Elijah Wood did indeed fit Tolkien's portrayal of Frodo, and that those folk who wanted an "older, rounder" Frodo were wrong:

As time went on, people began to notice that Frodo also showed signs of good 'preservation': outwardly he retained the appearance of a robust and energetic hobbit just out of his tweens. 'Some folk have all the luck,' they said; but it was not until Frodo approached the usually more sober age of fifty that they began to think it queer.

I respectfully disagree with your view.

Listen to this description which Gandalf gave to Butturbur of Frodo:

'A stout little fellow with red cheeks'......this one is taller than some and fairer than most, and he has a cleft in his chin, perky chap with a bright eye.

PJ's Frodo is a very slight fellow, and he has a dreamy look about him even before he actually gets the Ring. He looks and acts nothing like the above. And, once in possession of it, PJ's Frodo almost instantly becomes a haunted figure, with terror mirrored on his face. This is not the Frodo of the book who struck back at the Barrow-wight with a sword, and who stands up bravely in a number of scenes where the movie portrays him as being carted around like baggage. It's not the Frodo of the book who rather foolishly stands up on the table to dance and sing a silly song to divert attention away from the indiscretions of his younger hobbit friends.

As far as age goes, remember this. Bilbo was supposed to be "stuck" at he age of 50 on account of the power of the Ring; Frodo at age 33. That would mean a 17 year difference between them in terms of appearance. Yet, if you look at the beginning of the movie and compare Bilbo with Frodo, it looks as if Frodo is much more than 17 years younger than Bilbo.

And it's not just a matter of appearance. Whatever Frodo may have physically looked like, there was a definite difference in experience and authority between him and the younger hobbits who were also part of the Fellowship. There is, for example, a 15-year gap between Frodo and Sam. Often, in the earlier pages of the book and even sometimes in the middle, Frodo acts almost as a teacher for Sam (much as Bilbo must have done). It is only as they trudge towards Mordor that these roles are gradually reversed. And the age differenial was even greater with the other hobbits. The difference between Frodo and Pippin, for example, was a full 22 years.

Yet, PJ never gives us a sense of Frodo's role as the older leader. I certainly enjoyed the movie, but the portrayal of Frodo in the book was very different (and preferable in my mind). Since I read the book many years before seeing PJ's film, I don't have too much trouble keeping my older images intact.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Bill Ferny]

7th, you hit the nail right on the head! I was really upset about making Frodo into such a wimp! It seemed like the hobbits were always yelling "Strider, Strider!" to save hopeless little, girly-man, Frodo. It was annoying.

[Diamond18]

'A stout little fellow with red cheeks'......this one is taller than some and fairer than most, and he has a cleft in his chin, perky chap with a bright eye.

Dang, I forgot all about that one. (I mentally kick myself). Thanks for reminding me, Child of the 7th Age.

I'm afraid when I watched the movie I had the image of Sam dragging Frodo around Mordor stuck in my head, so I didn't notice him being wimpier than he should have been. But I've noticed in the TTT teaser trailer that they show Frodo whipping out his sword with a dangerous look in his eyes, so maybe he won't be so girly in TTT.

[Tárafëaien]

Well I must say that it was rather rude of PJ to do that to us all. Distorting our perceptions and imaginations as they did. smilies/mad.gif
But then again ... Them guys are much too cute to stay mad at for long.
Especially Billy and Dominick (Pip and Merry) smilies/biggrin.gif They are much too cute for words, so I will now leave and sit and think of how awesomely cute they are as Hobbits of the Shire. (Merry Christmas all) smilies/smile.gif

[Gorwingel]

Even though I read the books after I saw the first film, I still have my very own mental images. When I think of Frodo (especially in the first part of FOTR) I think of a shorter, wiser, older hobbit. My mental image of Gandalf the Grey is not much different from the movie version, but my version of Gandalf the White is. I also think of Aragorn looking different but it is hard to discribe. I also think of Arwen much differently. I really separate the film versions from my own.

I also think of many of the scenes differently . Like the Dead Marshes. My Dead Marshes are really dark, and are much more ominious. I also think of places like Shelob Lair differently, because I read these before I saw their version in the film, and shucks, I still like my version much better. Mine is again much darker, and more complicated. My Lorien is also much more golden, because the line about the leaves not falling and staying on the branches and turning gold is one of my favorites.

I keep the film and the books differently. When I watch the film, I think of it like the film. When I read the book, I use my own mental images.

[drigel]

I still have my own images. If I were able to advise PJ for a movie of The Hobbit - i would tell him: Keep up the landscapes but make them ummm well mistier, foggier, more mysterious. this is a pre- prehistory for goodness sakes. The earth was younger, more vital and alive. As with all historical movies - the actors are just too clean. They look like they just walked out of a dressing room onto a set. Of the characters in the LOTR movies, Morteson best put a face of Aragorn in the books for me. The rest I had to turn up the suspended disbelief knob in my head..

[Firefoot]

The movie didn't ruin my perception of characters and places. Bilbo looked older than I had thought in the movie. I didn't think Frodo looked too young but they changed other things about his appearance. I never saw the Matrix but Elrond didn't look at all like I had imagined him... in the book he seemed more wise and, I don't know, something else. Merry and Pippin grew and that was okay because of the ent-draughts but in RotK when they were all standing next to each other they were the same height and they should have been taller than Frodo and Sam. Sam was pretty good but how come he never lost any weight even on such short rations? Boromir was pretty good. When Gimli came in though my first reaction was "Whoa, THAT'S supposed to be Gimli?" He was completely changed.

As for places, Rivendell seemed very fakey to me. Also Lothlorien was pretty different. I thought the Shire was just about perfect!

So I guess what I did was if the movie images were similar to mine I kept those but if they were different I just sort of ignore them when I read the book. The movie also helped me in some places where I didn't have a very clear image in my mind of a character or place.

Well this wasn't supposed to be a long post... smilies/rolleyes.gif

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

Everytime i read the book i see the movie characters, but i don't really mind because i think every actor fits well with their character.

[Wilwarin Bluemoon]

Sadly I only read the books after i say the Fellowship so I had the movie characters in my mind and the way ME looked but I still ended up changing my image of some things such as pippin who I thought of being more young looking and more vulnerable even though Billy did a great job, i also think Elijah and Orlando were the perfect ones for the job.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Sam was pretty good but how come he never lost any weight even on such short rations? I always wondered that too, Firefoot! Of course, Elijah's Frodo started out so thin that the concurrent Frodo-shrinkage could not have been borne! (Honestly, I think they should have padded Frodo's outfit for the first parts, though. He's constantly remarking how he'll have to keep tightening his belt along the beginning of the journey...) As for my images of the characters, strangely enough, when I read the books in 1991, I pictured Sam VERY much like Sean Astin came out to look! (Of course this could be hindsight blurring my perspective). I never had a clear picture of Frodo until I re-read the books in 2002, and by that time, Elijah was already Frodo (and always will be!). I didn't really have a problem with the way he looked, because of the Ring-effect, although there are a few clear differences, most notably the relative ages of all the hobbits. Bilbo and Gandalf--spot on! The Two Ians will ever be my image of these two! smilies/smile.gif My mental image of Elves, however, still changes, and Elrond is not always Hugo Weaving; Arwen not always Liv Tyler, Galadriel not always, Cate Blanchett, etc. etc. I think the Silmarillion has a lot to do with this!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Arcuwen]

I started reading the LOTR trilogy after I saw the Fellowship also. When I read the books I did see the characters in the movies but it doesn't bother me because each actor really did an excellent job. The only thing that bothers me is that I keep wondering how I would have pictured them if I would have read the books before seeing the movie.

[Theron Bugtussle]

Ithaeliel *cowers from disdainful forum veterans*I don't think it will be necessary for Movie-firsters to fear anything from us Book-firsters. Here on the Barrow-Downs, we are all equal in death. smilies/tongue.gif

People who read the book first are expecting a big in-rush of first time book readers after the movie-going public is exposed to Tolkien for the first time. Or at least for the first time in a way they cannot ignore. Welcome to the wonderful world of Tolkien!

[Teleri]

I read the books first, and I think my problem with the movie/books is exactly the opposite of what would be exptected. I went to see ROTK in theaters, and couldn't get the books out of my head (not that that's really a problem). A couple of times (such as when Rohan charges) I actually found myself quoting the book in my head.
Some characters were perfect. I remember going to see the Fellowship of the Ring, and right at "A wizard is never late..." I wanted to stand up in my seat and scream "Look everyone it's REALLY Gandalf".

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

(I apologise in advance for the post. Time constrains me from reading properly the entirety of the thread.)

I've thought of making a thread like this when RotK's over. But I see someone beat me to it...

Fro and Sam are stuck!!!!!! So is Gandalf and Aragorn, and Gimli. That's about it.

Some scenes in my mind are more grand than that of the movies(should I make the movies, then?), while some are...well...the movies themselves(maybe it has something to do with the fact that I was converted by the movies... smilies/rolleyes.gif )

->Elenrod

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Hmm well...firstly, Elijah's eyes are blue anyway, he wears clear contacts. Although of course with all the colour grading stuff in post production and what-not, I think his eyes became somewhat blue-er...and heck man, Orlando doesn't have a sissy voice! It's just kind of hoarse in the films for whatever reason. And his pronunciation of 'Aragorn' cracks me up every time I hear it...but not sissy. And dark eyebrows with blonde hair...I know someone like that! (Naturally, not dyed or anything). It looks fine, once you're used to it.

But yeah...I have a problem with creating images of people for some reason. I can imagine the place and whatever in perfect clarity, and the movies haven't changed that for me. I can switch back and forth with ease. But not ever having had images of the characters apart from a sudden flash I had when reading about Frodo's first glimpse of Arwen...I just insert the movie characters in. With some alterations or whatever of course...like no stubble on the hobbits or Elrond and whatever. Although I did assume Legolas had dark hair...where abouts in the Hobbit does it say Thranduil has blonde hair? I've never been able to find it...

And as for movie Legolas ruining any interest in book Legolas...I have no problem at all. Legolas may be my favourite character in the movies (along with Sean Astin), but I hardly notice him when I read the books and stuff. I still like Aragorn, Gandalf, Frodo and Sam more than Legolas. Although it is irritating that I can't find anything more about Legolas' character...apart from that short paragraph Tolkien wrote which was defending him against 'ladylike pictorial renditions' and whatnot. If I can find it, I might post it...It might have been in Lost Tales or something, I can't remember.

[Larmess]

Hello,

I've left a private message for you.

Thanks

Larmess

[Carnimírië]

Yes, I'm still forming my own mental images, because I've never stopped. That's right, I must be the only person on this forum who has not yet seen any of the movies. My parents don't let me go to movie theaters, and we only watch videos occasionally, but this August I'll get to watch Fellowship of the Ring. I can hardly wait, but in a way I'll regret it, because when I read the books again I'll hear the actor's voices in my head and see the scenery from the movie instead of my original mental imagery. I'm almost sure that once I see the movie it will completely change the way I "see" and "hear" the things in the book, because it's happened to me before with other books and movies. I can't wait to see the movie, but at the same time I'm afraid, simply afraid of what it will do to my own imagination.

[elronds_daughter]

Most of the casting jobs PJ did fit with my image, and New Zealand exactly fit my visions of Middle Earth. however, Sean Bean was not exactly how I had pictured Boromir. (I had pictured him with darker hair...) Lothlorien fit pretty well, but Rivendell was a bit fake. All the other sets were pretty perfect (for me). But Hugo Weaving, well, he was good being Agent Smith, but not so good being Elrond. that's all I'll say. I don't want to launch into a tirade. On a more positive note, all the Hobbits fit my image pretty well.

A note to Larmess: You needn't post to notify someone of a PM that you have sent to them. They are notified automatically. (not that I'm an expert on everything, but I see that you're new here. not to assume that you don't know anything.)

[Lûthien Nénharma]

When I first read about Arwen when I read the fellowship I pictured it differently then how Liv Tyler presented her. I pictured Arwen with a more aged look apon her, not physically , but emotionally and mentally. I mean yes Liv did do a good job with potraying Arwen's love for Aragorn. But I pictured Arwen more independent and her love for Aragorn to be more of how Jesus loved his disciples way. I also pictured her to be more fragile and more daint of a person with an amazing will. I alos pictured her to have more of a weary look apon her.

Oh well that is personally my thought.

[Saraphim]

At first I thought i had been corrupted by the actors. But now, with the onset of my re-reading the books again, I find myself falling back to the old way I used to picture the characters. :D

[Bombadil]

I like to use the word contamination for this occurence. The negative connotation is not directed at the film or the filmmakers, but for myself going to watch it over 20 times, and contaminating my own imagination. For this reason I have not gone to see any of the Harry Potter movies! :D

[Theron Bugtussle]

That's right, I must be the only person on this forum who has not yet seen any of the movies. ...but this August I'll get to watch Fellowship of the Ring.

I can hardly wait, but in a way I'll regret it, because when I read the books again I'll hear the actor's voices in my head and see the scenery from the movie instead of my original mental imagery. I'm almost sure that once I see the movie it will completely change the way I "see" and "hear" the things in the book, because it's happened to me before with other books and movies....

Wow, that is impressive. I must say that if I had a vote, I would vote that you NOT go see the movies. Yes, I would keep you as a great social experiment--kind of a lab rat. You are about the only one I know of on the forums here that has not seen the movie(s). Just go ahead and take a stand against the movies. You can be everyone's "control group."

Kind of like the people in medical experiments that are given the placebo. ("Wow, man, that's some good stuff! Do you have any more of it I can take?")

[Carnimírië]

I must say that if I had a vote, I would vote that you NOT go see the movies.
"To see, or not to see, that is the question."

It's funny, I've been considering this very thing, and I have reached no conclusion. It would be neat if I were the only Tolkien fan alive who had refused to see the movie. If I can resist...resist the corupting power of the Ring...I mean the movie. Maybe I will just say no, after all from all I've heard the movie dosn't come close to the wonder and magic of the book, so why spoil the book for myself?

[Theron Bugtussle]

I really meant it in more of a selfish way, not in a way to actually try to impose my will on you.

I mean, I went to see the movies, though I knew in some way they would alter or affect my own perceptions. It was just that, if the movies were supposed to be pretty decent, then I wanted to see them, regardless of how it might affect my internal images.

So it is not that you should not go see them, it is just that it would probably be really neat to have one or more frequenters of the B-D that can comment on things from the "movie virgin" vantage point.

Alas, I, myself, am stained...and by my own choice. ;)

[VanimaEdhel]

I've actually managed to retain my own mental images of the characters. I sort of have two images running through my mind at all times: my mental image, sitting right next to the movie image. Then I quickly make up my mind as to which is appropriate, depending on the conversation. It actually remains a rather simple task, especially for characters like Arwen, Eowyn, Legolas, Merry, Pippin, Gimli, Haldir, Saruman, and Faramir, who were played with such different dispositions from those that I imagined. The physical aspects are a touch closer, but still different enough that I keep up two completely separate images.

For this reason I have not gone to see any of the Harry Potter movies!

Aw, and miss making fun of the kids' horrible acting skills? I wouldn't pass up Radcliffe trying to produce stage tears for anything. And Cuaron is actually a bit better than Columbus was.

[PaleStar]

Probably unlike a lot of people here, my mental imagery is based alot on Alan Lee's illustrations, except when it comes to the people...there, I use my own ideas about what they look like.
The only thing that has really happened because of the movies is that, whenever the wizard's speak, I hear Sir Ian McKellan and Christopher Lee. That also happens every now and again when there is a quote from the book that i've heard in the movie.
So no, it hasn't done anything to disrupt my image of Middle Earth.

[VanimaEdhel]

Probably unlike a lot of people here, my mental imagery is based alot on Alan Lee's illustrations, except when it comes to the people...there, I use my own ideas about what they look like.

Actually Alan Lee designed the jackets of the books my dad has. Those are the books that I read when I was nine, and that I reread every time I feel the urge to jump back into Frodo's adventure. Therefore, as I've been looking at those pictures for about eight years, they give me my impressions of what Middle Earth looked like. Actually, if you want to see the cover design, here (http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/LOTR_87.jpg) is a picture of the three covers. You can tell what they are pretty easily (I hope).

[PaleStar]

Hmm...so there are other people...
Alan Lee, at least for this one (referring to myself, here), defined M-E appearance...it's just beyond words. I read all three books right before FOTR came out, and when I saw the illustration for Rivendell, it nearly knocked me flat.

[Zircon32]

Hmm, I'm going to go through the actors and actresses step by step in order of apearance.

Elijah/Frodo- He just was not right. I'm not sure how, but his only expressions were "the rock is going to eat me" (sorry, I've been spending too much tim around my overly spooky horse) and a look of absolute terror.

Sir Ian/Gandalf- This was exactly how I pictured Gandalf and I think Sir Ian McKellan did a very good job. Now if only he'd gotten the Dumbledore part...

Ian/Bilbo- He wasn't in the movie that much, so I can't really say.

Sean/Sam- He was the best of the hobbit actors, but that was just not how I pictured Sam Gamgee.

Billy/Pippin- He was really good. Pippin was just how I pictured him and he got the personality right too.

Merry- Don't shoot me, I forget the actor's name. He was good. He was every bit the responsible hobbit I thought him to be.

Viggo/Strider/Aragorn/Elessar- He was a perfect Aragorn. He was exactly how I pictured Aragorn and his personality fitted perfectly. He was quiet, and did not speak unless he had to. As I've heard, the real Viggo is the same personality as Aragorn. Quiet, kind, polite, helpful. And please not that I do NOT like Viggo.

Post more later.

[wilwarin538]

I saw FOTR and then I read all three books , so i already had a picture of what everybody looked like, but i did change my view of some characters, for example:

hugo/elrond:he is way too old looking, elves are supposed to stay young looking and not age but he looks aged

liv/arwen: I find she doesnt have the right look, she looks really pouty and has big lips, i dont want to be mean but i dont think shes pretty enough for that role.

billy/pippin: dont get me wrong I love him as pippin but in my mind I did make him a little younger and more vulnerble looking but hes still perfect for the movies

elijah/frodo: hes the complete opposite of pippin he was too imature looking like hes supposed to be 50 he didnt seem old enough for me

[Rinfanawen]

I have noticed that many of you have commented on the fact that Elijah looked too young for the role of Frodo, and he thus did not fit the part. I have to admit that I agree with this to a certain extent, but I only agree with the physical aspect of the point. You also have to look at the fact that Elijah showed a very mature Frodo, though young in the face. He played the part well in acting like an older Hobbit rather than a younger one. And after all, Hobbits live longer than mortal men. So who says that a 50 year old, or 33 year old when they started out, Hobbit could not look like a 20 year old human?

To further emphasize my point, I must tell a line ffrom both the movie and the books. In TTT, Aragorn mentions to the Riders of the Riddermark the following about Merry and Pippin:
"They would be small, only children to your eyes,..."

I would guess by this comment that it would not just be the hight that would make a grown Hobbit look like a child, but also the look of the face. However, in this scene the riders were riding through on horseback. So one might say that they were riding too fast too take a good look at their face. But then look at this from ROTK...
"I will not hide from you, Master Peregrin," said Beregond, "that to us you look almost as one of our children, a lad of nine summers or so;..."

Even though Pippin was indeed younger than Frodo, still 9 years is quite a ways seeing Pippin was 28, I believe when they set out from the Shire. Frodo might have looked 20 although he was indeed 33. That's just one person's opinion though.

[One of the Nine]

Well, either I'm a really sad case of a lack of imagination, or I'm just wierd, because whenever I try to get a mentle image of whatever I'm reading, I get a blurry somewhat half-picture of whatever I'm trying to put an image to. So, as soon as I saw the movies, the images kind of stuck. AND, since I didn't have a mentle image for anyone, nothing ever bothered me. No one's looks or if they looked to young or not. I'm just me, but I think PJ actually did OK with the cast. That's at least one thing good I can say to his name. :D I don't know. Maybe I got dropped to many times as a young child. :rolleyes:

[The Saucepan Man]

I have noticed that many of you have commented on the fact that Elijah looked too young for the role of Frodo, and he thus did not fit the part. I have to admit that I agree with this to a certain extent, but I only agree with the physical aspect of the point.Yes, Frodo was fifty when he set out from the Shire. But, courtesy of the Ring, he looked much younger. From The Shadow of the Past:


As time went on, people began to notice that Frodo also showed signs of good 'preservation': outwardly he retained the appearance of a robust and energetice hobbit just out of his tweens. 'Some folk have all the luck,' they said; but it was not until Frodo approached the usually more sober age of fifty that they began to think it queer.So I see no reason to criticise the choice of Elijah on the basis of his youthful looks. Although, personally, I did think that he lacked the emotional maturity to portray a character of Frodo's age.

[Mirkgirl]

That's a reasonably interesting question. I prefer books to celluloid by far and always will, however when PJ started work on this project I knew that I would end up seeing it, although I would be disappointed, inevitably. Indeed, so I was. I had, decades before the recent movies, definite ideas of what people and places looked like and how they spoke and inter-reacted. Seeing the film was similar to seeing an old friend who has aged rather poorly. You can see the structure of their face and how they looked when you knew them before but there is a layer of something alien shrouding them and distorting the picture.

I shall continue to create my own pictures; but I confess to have been affected by the images I saw on the screen.
My sentiments exactly... although my images were never that visual, I had rather clear idea how the scene should sound, what impact it should have... kind of hard to explain, but even harder to keep the movie out of it. My images have grown with me (first read LotR when I was like 9, the first movie came out when I was 17 I think) and it's really sad when instead of them Elijah or someone else pops up in my head reading a passage. :/

[VanimaEdhel]

Actually, even though I still see the characters as the characters, I've developed an attachment to the actors that played the characters I felt strong emotions for. I saw the Pierce Brosnan Goldeneye last night for the first time - not a big fan of Brosnan's Bond - and Sean Bean plays the villain. I almost cried when he died because, since I always loved and pitied Boromir, I developed similar emotions for Mr. Bean. The same is true for Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan. While I don't see any of them as the images I have in my mind, there's a certain attachment to them. Meanwhile, I really respected the character of Legolas in the books. However, I was so underwhelmed with his portrayal in the movies, that I've already developed a bias against Orlando Bloom. He could suddenly blossom into a brilliant actor overnight, and I would still resent him for what he did to a character I liked. Now I did not exactly like that Merry and Pippin were turned into so much comic relief, but the depictions that Monaghan and Boyd gave were believable in spite of some of the actions written into the script. Meanwhile, I thought that Brad Dourif's interpretation of Grima Wormtongue to be a pretty true interpretation, so I now love him as an actor...with the help of his role as Doc Cochran in my favorite show Deadwood. I guess that when the actors portrayed the characters decently - regardless of what the script said - they endeared themselves to me. If they still did not "pull off" the characters, there was a resentment. Do you guys find yourself doing that?

[Araréiel]

Anunia, what country are you in that only just published the book? Beware of translated versions. The old Swedish version was translated into Legolas remembering walking through the forests with his children!! I'd imagine other translations also have errors.

I read the Hobbit right before seeing the first movie (the day the DVD came out!!), which was right before I read the book. And the version of The Hobbit I read had a picture of what looked like John Goodman on the cover. So I had been picturing Bilbo like that, and, while I did know who Frodo was before the movie, I imagined him to look like that as well. I'm reading the book yet again, and have an older-looking character in my head, and for Sam, I see him almost buck-toothed. The movie characters are definitely much more attractive.

I had read up on who Arwen was before the movie, and Liv Tyler ended up looking close to what I had in my head.

And, sorry, but I do see Orlando Bloom as Legolas. While I was so swept away in the story when I first saw the movie, I did later develop a crush on him (should I duck to avoid the tomatoes I'm sure some of you BD-ers are likely to throw now?). However, I do sometimes see him with black hair.....

[Aredhel]

No, don't duck, Araréiel! Orli was wonderful as Legolas. Nevermind the hair color thing. His performance was soft voiced, he was light on his feet as we'd expect Legolas to be, and of course his work with the special effects crew was fantastic. To this day I still can't shake the picture of him hitching a ride, swinging himself up into the saddle in TTT. It was GREAT. I found all the secondary characters in the movies wonderful - and Sir Ian was great as Gandalf. I've got a few itchy points with Elijah, though, and the recharacterization of Faramir irked me greatly.

I didn't use the movies to color my imaginations of Tolkien's world. I already had that in my head. I will say that the scene artists, the armourers, the silversmiths, even the makeup artists all had the same image that I did, and I'm thankful for that.
I still walk in Doriath in my dreams, though. *sigh* :p

[Araréiel]

Aredhel, he broke I think it was a rib or two filming that shot. Though I'm still trying to figure out if that was a bad MSN article or if they really were stupid enough to have a main character (main as in not easily replaceable-Eowyn was filmed in 6 months, and Arwen in less time I think, but Orli was there the whole time) film such a dangerous scene nearer the end of filming!

I do think the main problem so many people have with him now is that he was a percet character in the books, but sacrified for sex appeal for the film, much as Merry and Pip were sacrificed for comic relief. I understand the PJ was working on such a huge budget, no backing down if film one bombed. Most films, if #1 bombs, just don't make #2. But since they were filmed together, the risk was great, even if it was half the cost of filming three individual movies.

For visual appeal, and to draw in people who would later be fans, Jackson had to take certain concessions. I feel there is very little to laugh at in the books. And to try to make new fans with a movie three hours long would be difficult. Most people cringe at the thought of a three-hour-movie.

Arwen was added in more partially to show the relationship between her and Aragorn (imagine the chemistry between Aragorn and Eowyn, butthen this strange Elf coming in at the end and vapor-lock-smooching Aragorn!-Non-readers would be like, Huh? ***?) and also to appease those morons who think Tolkien is disrespectful of women in not giving more than Eowyn a very active role. Or so I real. But it fits.

A three-hour-movie, all serious, no matter how beautiful the overall scenery and visuals, would be to "dull" for people who haven't read the books and developed an appreciation for Tolkien. Hence the chance of Merry and Pip to comics. But they were so perfectly cast it's forgiveable-almost. At least it's enjoyable!

But with Legolas and the legions of girls who pine away in their little teen-age dreams cheapens him to a great extent. I had a crush on him once, and got over it when I found out Orli was (and still is) dating some girl from the movie Blue Crush (I can't keep interested in a guy who's with someone else). The first time I watched FotR, before the books, I hardly noticed him. I was so into the story as a whole, and I knew that things would be changed. So I watched the DVD again immediately, and was hooked. It wasn't until after reading the books that I noticed Orli, and was actually confused at first since I had pictured Legolas as a dark-blue-eyed, sometimes brown-eyes, Elf with long black hair. Then there he was as a blonde? I go back and forth between liking my version better and liking Orli's version better. My version is brisker, but Orli's version is softer. It depends on my mood.

[VanimaEdhel]

I had a crush on him once, and got over it when I found out Orli was (and still is) dating some girl from the movie Blue Crush (I can't keep interested in a guy who's with someone else).

Well, you shouldn't let someone like Kate Bosworth interfere with who you have a crush on. It's like I tell a lot of the Orlando Bloom fangirls: if they really like how they look, admire away. It is not as though any of them will ever actually be with the person. Then they usually hate me - though by then they're usually upset that I've said he is, in my opinion, a horrible actor so they're mad anyway. And that brings me to my reasoning for my special disapproval of Orlando Bloom and my exclusion of him from my thoughts of who "is" Legolas. I just don't see him as a very talented actor at the moment.

Aredhel, he broke I think it was a rib or two filming that shot. Though I'm still trying to figure out if that was a bad MSN article or if they really were stupid enough to have a main character (main as in not easily replaceable-Eowyn was filmed in 6 months, and Arwen in less time I think, but Orli was there the whole time) film such a dangerous scene nearer the end of filming!

And yes, Bloom did break two ribs falling off of a horse. The horse tripped, Orlando Bloom fell off the horse, landing on a rock, and the Gimli body-double fell off as well, landing on Bloom.

To this day I still can't shake the picture of him hitching a ride, swinging himself up into the saddle in TTT.

I, personally, did not care for that scene. I felt as though it was rather forced, especially as it went against the laws of physics. Elves were lithe, strong, and quick, but they were not completely superhumans, though they were immortal. This shot, in my opinion, made it look as though Elves could fly or something equally as impossible to their kind.

Getting off of the living actors for a second, the scenery was what really made the movie for me. When I was in Madrid, we went and saw Franco's Spanish Civil War Memorial. There is a church carved into the mountain. When I entered, I felt as though I walked into Dwarrowdelf. It looked a great deal like my mental images - and the onscreen images, of the place. Going back to the topic from my tangent, Peter Jackson did a magnificent job with the landscape and surrounding area of Middle Earth. I feel as though the land itself was a character in the movie worthy of mention as much as the people themselves.

[Kitanna]

I saw the FOTR before reading the books so all the characters in FOTR I have visions of them as the actors who played them. Sometimes I see Aragorn and Sam differently, but I don't think I can ever see Boromir other then as Sean Bean and the same goes for Merry and Pippin. However I read TTT before the movie came out and, as strange as this is, I envisioned Eowyn as this tough viking type woman. Buff and strong, but when I saw the movie I was surprised at how skinny and (to me) somewhat frail looking she was. Not that Mirando Otto didn't do a great job, but my whole view of Eowyn changed after seeing the movie. I didn't like her as much as I did in the books.

[Noxomanus]

I haven't got a vision of book-Boromir left,but the character didn't really live with me and Sean Bean did a great job and thus,I don't mind thinking of him as Boromir.

Ian McKellen definitely IS Gandalf as I imagined him and he was a perfect choice. No problem going on there either.

Sam,Merry & Pippin were neat and,in my opinion,severely outshined Frodo. And that's where we meet the problem. Elijah Wood must be the softest,weakest, most homosexual looking (excusez le mot) and chickened Frodo they could have ever chosen. In nothing is he like book Frodo who is merely insecure and uncomfortable at many occasions,rather then s&%*&g his pants every time something nasty comes along. I'm not surprised many movie-goers mistook his relationship with Sam for a homosexual one. All in all, movie-Frodo is an irritating wimp and I'm VERY glad he hasn't replaced my view of book-Frodo.

Everyone else has turned into a mixture of original view and movie-influenced one. Not a bad thing.

[The Saucepan Man]

I'm not surprised many movie-goers mistook his relationship with Sam for a homosexual one.That particular nasty piece of misinterpretation was around long before the films ever came out. For people who have the inclination to so so, there is sufficient material in the book to view the relationship between Sam and Frodo in that way. Personally, I am glad that they had the courage not to exclude such material from the films.

I have to say that I wasn't a fan of Elijah in the first two films, and indeed throughout much of RotK. Too much eye rolling and falling on his backside for my tastes. And, although I have no problem with a youthful looking Frodo since there is material in the book to justify that, I did feel that he lacked the experience to portray the depth of Frodo's character. However, I can forgive him much for his performance from the "Wheel of Fire" speech through to the Eagle rescue. For me, Elijah's Frodo came of age in those scenes.

[Noxomanus]

Being convincing in the last parts of an in total 9,5 half hour movie does not qualify as good acting in my honest opinion.

[The Saucepan Man]

Being convincing in the last parts of an in total 9,5 half hour movie does not qualify as good acting in my honest opinion.Well, I personally would not criticise the quality of his acting throughout the three films, simply his realisation of Frodo the character from the books (which is as much, if not moreso, the fault of the script-writers). But since Frodo, in common with many characters in the films, is not the same character as that portrayed in the book, I can live with this (even if I do find his eye-rolling and falling over irritating in parts). But, in those final scenes, I caught clear glimpses of the original Frodo and this, for me, made those scenes even more moving.

Now that I am re-reading the book again, the Frodo in my head has an Elijah-ish quality in terms of his appearance (although he is not identical) but his character remains quite different from the character portrayed by Elijah throughout much of the film trilogy.

[Osse]

Having nestled myself in the lush grass in the shade of that great tree of objectivity, I feel it is finally time for me to stop just reading the posts on this thread and actually contribute! I, like many of you, my esteemed colleagues, am not a fan of Mr. Wood. Indeed one might be so bold to say that master Elijah is my least favourite choice for any character in any of the three films. Now before I go on, Saucie, I know that you feel that the age appearance of Elijah’s Frodo is justified, from both the text and Tolkien’s own musings, however, I still find his appearance most un-hobbitish and immature. It is impossible to look at someone of his appearance and still be given those feeling of youthful, yet deep wisdom that we are given when we imagine the book driven Frodo. Frodo always had an air of knowledge and affluence around him, something that (at least for me) did not come across in Mr. Wood’s portrayal of the character at all.

I know you are not saying that he fits the um… (Can’t be shoes…) hat of the book-Frodo, and you were merely saying that he wasn’t all that bad in the last portions of Return… and I see your point, he certainly did show at least some acting prowess, prowess that I had convinced myself he did not possess in the dying scenes. This however, is by no means redeeming, and listening to the little prat in person makes my skin crawl, and certainly makes any less-harsh feelings I felt towards him fade like mist in the sun.

To be completely honest, I have certainly found myself half pondering what Tolkien would be like for me if the films had not emerged as they had of late. Though they certainly haven’t ruined any of my imaginings, they have certainly made them become more obscure and more difficult to find. I really have to probe to get past the visual portrayals, and whereas in the past I was able to imagine them without the text being fresh in my mind, I now need to have recently read or scanned at least portions of the texts. Others have stated that they felt the films just added to their imaginings and if anything made them stronger, I however feel that at least a part of my private enjoyment has been taken – when the films were non existent, my imaginings were mine and mine alone. – No one on earth imagined anything quite the way I did! This to me was like a private affair with the professor and his writings, and added to the pull of appeal that I felt.

However, minor characters that I hadn’t really formed detailed mental images of, I believe, benefited from the films – though the images weren’t mine, at least they were there!

All in all however, I think seeing Middle Earth and its peoples in such visual splendour was fantastic, and though it has perhaps taken somewhat from my literary experience, it has nonetheless added to my enjoyment of Tolkien’s works… sometimes you have to lose some of what you love in order to really appreciate it.
I wouldn’t have it any other way.

[The Saucepan Man]

It is impossible to look at someone of his appearance and still be given those feeling of youthful, yet deep wisdom that we are given when we imagine the book driven Frodo.I wouldn't disagree with that, which is why the image that I have is Elijah-ish but not identical.

[mark12_30]

I, personally, did not care for that scene. I felt as though it was rather forced, especially as it went against the laws of physics. Elves were lithe, strong, and quick, but they were not completely superhumans, though they were immortal. This shot, in my opinion, made it look as though Elves could fly or something equally as impossible to their kind.

This opinion surprises me.

In Maine, back in 1979, I knew a lithe, extremely talented cowgirl (named Karen) who had a barrel-racing palomino named Buck. While the horse was standing still, she could swing up onto his saddle one-handed. The motion was similar. (I have pictures of her trail-riding her horse, back in my archives somewhere, but unfortunately have no pictures of this stunt, so my memory will have to suffice: )

To mount, she would stand at Buck's left shoulder facing his haunches, take a step back, holding the horn of the western saddle with one hand, swing her right leg up over the horse's haunches, push off with her standing leg, use her hand to sharply pull her hips onto the saddle, and then the momentum of the kick would bring her upright in the saddle. Then (and only then) she would casually put her feet into the stirrups.

She weighed perhaps ninety pounds. Her horse "Buck" stood at least fifteen hands. It was an impressive-- nay, spectacular sight to see this little slip of a girl go from the ground to the saddle in one smooth motion.

I tried it a few times and succeeded only in seriuosly embarassing myself (and kicking the poor bay mare I was riding.) However, I believe that with practice, improved strength, and timing, I would have eventually been able to do it.

When I saw the Legolas/ Arod stunt, there are three added factors. One, it was "performed" at the canter. Two, he grasped the breastplate, not the saddlehorn. Three, Gimli was a challenging obstacle. Hence, my chief thoughts were that "for the real elf", it would be tricky to catch the breastplate just right at the canter, but that it was plausible; and it would be hard not to kick Gimli right off of the horse.

So while the lovely arc made by his cloak was clearly CGI, other than that, I was easily able to attribute the spectacular timing to Legolas' elvish nature. If Karen could do it at the halt, I suppose an elf could do it at the gallop, even with Gimli there to increase the difficulty.

[The Saucepan Man]

But wasn't Legolas facing forward, away from the horse, at the start of his maneuvre. I don't know whether, objectively, the maneuvre is possible or not, but the way that it is portrayed in the film, it does look physically impossible to me. Having studied it once or twice since the issue was first raised, it looks to me like his arm would have to pass through his body. But then again, I'm no expert in Elven horseman(elf?)ship. :rolleyes: ;)

[mark12_30]

I'm going only by my memory here, but I don't think so. I think he was facing forward; reached back with his left hand, caught the breastplate, let the horse pull him into a spin, and then kicked and pulled his hips into the saddle. Tricky, yes. Impossible, no.

Of course a klutz like me would have dislocated that left shoulder.

But thinking of someone like, say, Mary Lou Retton in her prime-- no problem.

[Lalaith]

listening to the little prat in person makes my skin crawl

Oh dear, this made me laugh. I wouldn't go quite that far myself but I really can't forgive him for not having read the blessed book. He annoys me, mainly because when I think 'Frodo' now, I can't help having his quivering ickle boy face hovering around the vision of my mind's eye.

[mark12_30]

Although I wish the directors had relied less on his baby-blues and more on his line-delivery skills, I don't blame that on Wood. On the contrary, I've really enjoyed Wood's portrayal of a Much Younger And More Naive FrodoLijah. It has helped me put BookFrodo into perspective as the mature, sophisticated scholar and gentleman that he truly is. I don't have trouble separating them. But then, I don't have trouble separating Bingo from BookFrodo, nor Trotter from Strider.

As a comparison: Captain James T. Kirk, Captain Jean-Luc Picard, and Captain Janeway (whatsername.) Same jobs, different styles of attacking their duties; completely different personalities. I enjoy each of them; and each of them help me to see the strengths of the other (and weaknesses as well.) I don't hate one in favor of another; I enjoy all three of them.

So while I prefer BookFrodo over both FrodoLijah and Bingo, I don't dislike any of them. Frodolijah has thrown BookFrodo in to sharp relief for me, and I am glad for it. For instance, were it not for FrodoLijah, I would not have nearly the appreciation for BookFrodo's debate with Faramir in Ithilien that I do now.

Furthermore, as actors midway through their twenties, I'm impressed with both Wood and Liv Tyler.

Wood continues through his early twenties maintaining an acting career, steering clear of major scandal, and managing to enjoy such things as video games and his CD collection. He has more to learn about controlling his speech and his attitude... (let he who is without sin among us, cast the first stone.)

Tyler has astounded me with her attitude towards relationships, self-image, and family. I'll be keeping my eye on her. The more I learn about her, the more Arwen resembles her in my mind, and I don't mind it one bit. I wish more twentysomething actresses had her attitude.

[ninlaith]

The only two characters I thought could have been presented a little better in the movies were Frodo and Arwen. Eli was a wonderful Frodo but a little too soft and serious for my liking. Yes, Frodo had never been on an adventure but I just can't see the written character standing on the shores of Parth Galen with two gleaming tears running down his cheeks. It was a good idea for dramaic effect but oh well it was ok. Liv presented a wonderful performance as well, however, Arwen was only mentioned in the book. her appearance in the movie just shattered my visions of Glorfindel, whom I thought would've been played beautifully by Keifer Sutherland if he had slimmer facial features and was a little less masculine. I just can't picture him on a horse! Everyone was sensational all in all.

[Osse]

No, I have just watched the mounting sequence, and have come to the long-known conclusion that is indeed impossible, that is, for any of humanoid form... He generates motion from nowhere, and then moves in the opposite direction of that motion, add to that the fact that he was standing still and the horse was at a fast canter, the fact that there is an 80 kg dwarf atop the horse and the fact that the move would have broken his arm, and you'd still only be about a third of the way through the reasons of impossibilty!

It looks very CG as well...

Oh, the days of cheesy Legolas stunts... one would almost go as far to say that they are all he does in the films - sliding down stairs on shields, swinging onto horses, jumping all over moving Oliphaunts, doing backflips, jumping up and down... oh dear! No wonder the race of elves is declining!

[ninlaith]

sorry to burst the hypothetical bubble but Orlando Bloom did that stunt himself. Of course there were saftey features involved and they had to put a CG character over him to make it look realistic if that makes any sense. The scene went so fast that in the final cut of that scene Orlando was just a blur, so they slowed it down and covered him with a CG character.

[Lalaith]

I do now see Arwen as Liv and Legolas as Orlando but they are both very handsome and elf-like IMO, so I have no problem with that!

[ninlaith]

Orlando is exactly how I pictured Legolas but with a few differences. In my minds eye Legolas had short blond hair, yet braided here and there, and had a frailer build. Orlando is frail enough but not quite enough, however, he fit the bill completely. I'd have to say one of the best supporting characters was Kate Blanchet's Galadriel. I have always held a certain affinity to Galadriel and when she swaned onto the screen it was purely magic, chills up & down. She jumped right out of the book.

[Osse]

Yes, her portayal was suprisingly good... a bit under-jovial (remember: the Queen of the Wood went from being as "merry as any hobbit lass with daisies in her hair" to being over poweringly serious and back again at the drop of a hat) I think she got the seriousness bits right... needed to weigh that out with the joviality! :D

[Mithalwen]

Actually to be fair, although Sam says that about her...there aren't actually many moments of cheer recorded in FOtr that I recall..... and I do see Galadriel as Cate now.......but then she very much ressembles aiee either John Howard or Alan Lee's famous pictures of G so I guess that that helped...seeing as they were responsible for so much of the design....... and I was lucky enough to see the LOTR exhibition in London last october and that dress was amazing..it really did seem to radiate light..in a non tacky way.....


Liv Tyler was not my idea of Arwen and her acting did not win me over ..... and though I have mellowed because she does seem saner and more grounded than you would expect given the unorthodox upbringing amd marrying someone named after the "League of Gentlemen" village but I am afraid I still find her profoundly irritating... irrational maybe but there you go.... To be fair I think she would have been more convincing somehow if they had kept Stuart Townsend as Aragorn (but thank the Valar they didn't) somehow they make a more convincing couple... I feel Viggo needed someone with more depth and although neither he nor Miranda Otto exactly fitted my ideas of their chars (think Hugh Jackman maybe and oh bother can't think of the name...) ....there was a much stronger chemistry between them and both have now usurped my previous mental images...

For me Frodo and Sam have Iam Holm and Bill Nighy's voices from the BBC radio version - I think they outclass the too young and irritating Elijah and Dopey Sean.... and I think it got the nature of the relationship better .... far less gay... With Elijah and Sean... I just thought "Ted and Ralph"..... and nearly got thrown out of the cinema for laughing during Shelob....

Christopher Lee won me over as Saruman aslong as I forget the "honey tongue" ... his voice is powerful but not enchanting....

Darling, beloved Hugo is definitely Elrond.... *thud*... Legolas was not a plutonium blonde I am sure but he's got the moves if not the touch....

Sean Bean as Boromir was good, though I wish he had diluted the yorkshire accent a bit .......


However Faramir and Denethor were definitely impostors..... Denethor would never have had such table manners and Faramir should have looked more Numenorean ...... I mean David Wenham looks nice enough but Fararmir was rather special.... should have looked like a younger Hugo Weaving :D

[VanimaEdhel]

This opinion surprises me.

In Maine, back in 1979, I knew a lithe, extremely talented cowgirl (named Karen) who had a barrel-racing palomino named Buck. While the horse was standing still, she could swing up onto his saddle one-handed.

A few of my friends are able to perform this trick, but there is completely different motion involved. In order for it to work, the horse cannot move forward at all. Typically, if they horse did move forward, it is not so much that the person would most likely misjudge the jump as it is that, no matter how light the person, the horse would be thrown off-balance. Arod is going to gallop right down a hill after the maneuver and, while Legolas is supposedly lighter due to his Elf-frame, I would think that it would still make it more difficult, especially with the compact Gimli already on his back.

And I cannot see how Orlando could have done that stunt himself unless he was attached to a harness. It is a very difficult stunt to perform without some sort of equipment aiding in lifting him onto the horse.

Actually, one flaw that irked me is that they obviously used two different horses to play Shadowfax. Look at the horse throughout The Two Towers and you will see that there are two horses of very different appearances. As well as basic physical appearances, they also had very separate demeanors. While one was very docile around horses and the other frequently moved to bite them. I do not know whether, as an avid horseback rider, I just noticed it because I was paying special attention to the horses or whether it was generally very obvious. Did anyone else notice this?

On the topic of the horses, the horse that played Asfaloth was great. He was so beautiful, and he was a real stallion rather than a gelding. Actually, he looked just like a horse at the barn at which I ride.

Viggo Mortensen, in my opinion, did very, very well in the scene where the horse that played Brego knelt next to him like that and licked his face. Although I am sure the horse was a very sweet creature, accidents do happen. If the horse was off-balance, it may have kneeled on him, breaking ribs or worse, and when it was licking him, even the most well-meaning horse can accidentally catch you with his or her teeth. These guys really did a lot for the job.

[Mithalwen]

I read an interview with Sir Ian McKellen and they did use two horses for Shadowfax - quite reasonable if your actor is and aged thespian who hadn't ridden before as I recall bareback and reinless would have been a bit of a challenge... "the galloping double" was indeed coinsiderably more fiery. They used a horse and a pony for gandalf's cart scenes for scale but his favourite was the pony who played Bill if I remember rightly.

Actually I was convinced there were 2 Asfaloths ..... one in close ups one in long shots (again understanderble since Liv Tyler was another novice) seems to have different markings if not different breeds...... and in half the shots he is overbent and int he others he has normal head carriage.....

[Encaitare]

I used to have a crush on Orlando Bloom but I've since moved on and now I think he's just a pansy. Legolas had dark hair! So that's how I've begun to think of Legolas. Also, Faramir and Boromir had dark hair, but I love David Wenham and Sean Bean's performances, so I don't mind. Eowyn was more or less how I pictured her, but I only read the third book without seeing the respective movie.

I thought Brad Dourif was perfect as Grima... I wish PJ had done the Scouring of the Shire, because he and Christopher Lee would have done it AMAZINGLY.

[VanimaEdhel]

Actually I was convinced there were 2 Asfaloths ..... one in close ups one in long shots (again understanderble since Liv Tyler was another novice) seems to have different markings if not different breeds...... and in half the shots he is overbent and int he others he has normal head carriage.....

But, then again, you can make any horse carry his head like that. The stunt double would certainly have been much more comfortable riding, and would have let the head out. Whereas Liv Tyler said that, when she was on the horse, she was pulling back with a lot of force the whole time. A lot of the riding where you just see her pumping her arms was apparently done on a model of a horse as well. I seem to recall that she said that the only scene where she was really doing the riding is where she mounted behind Frodo and urged Asfaloth forward. The rest was the stunt rider or Liv on a model.

Back to the head carriage, that overbent neck, as I said, is typically a result of a rider trying to hold the horse back too much. Technically, it's not really good for the horse's motion, but many people encourage it in the horse because it has taken on the reputation as looking fancy. However, holding a horse back because he is barrelling into turns very quickly is another reason one might force such an angle of the neck. However, on the far shots, they are typically on straight bearing, a reason for the rider to let the horse's neck out and allow it to gallop - provided, of course that they keep the horse from being front-heavy and perhaps tumbling.

Now that we have covered so much else, on the topic of what you imagined, how was the clothing and armor? Some of the detailing - even down to fraying of a sleeve - was great, in my opinion. Aragorn's clothing was especially well-done, in my opinion. Then again, Viggo Mortensen did take extra care that his outfit was typically just thread-bare enough. I, personally, was not a big fan of the dress Arwen wore in Aragorn's memory, not because I did not think the dress was gorgeous, but because I, personally, thought it departed from the general Arwen style a bit too much for my liking. Others will probably disagree, but it was just not my personal preferred style for what Arwen should wear in that scene.

[Mithalwen]

I must admit it occurred to me that the rider might have had to keep the horse much more in hand for the benefit of the camera in the close ups .... and the Liv close ups are about as subtle fakes as the Frodo doll - io haven't had time to look again but I remember thinking sometimes the grey was more of an "iron grey" with darker mane and dappling on his quarters and since I knew there had been more than one Shadowfax I thought it likely that there was more than one Asfaloth..... And while it is a while since I left the horse world...I do recall that being overbent was highly frowned on ... no more than perpendicular :D... Personally I think it looks horrible; as if the horse is fighting the bit, much rather the horse was going into the bridle....anyway this is getting far to technical for teh majority I guess!

I loved the elvish armour and weapons........ it was great to be able to see them close up - the only thing was I wondered if they would have used runes rather than script for engraving...? But the attention to detail was more than enough to satisfy this Tolkien pedant .....