View Full Version : Arwen

Lady Eowyn
09-18-2000, 10:52 PM
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Another thing I don't get.
why did Arwen become mortal, when she married Aragorn??
Maybe I missed that part about that in the silmarillion,or something.


Tar Anarion
09-19-2000, 12:28 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Arwen

Exactly why I am not certain, but perhaps it was becuase the love between them were so great that if she would have to life for LONG time afterwards being an elf, then the grief might destroy her. If the love between them was as high as making such a desicion was her best choice, then she probably also wanted to leave the world with him as well.

"People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Admin at http://pub22.ezboard.com/bworldoftolkien74993The Prancing Ponie</a> and in the http://pub20.ezboard.com/bdunedainscampDunedains Camp</a>. </p>

09-19-2000, 06:07 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Arwen

It appears that after the fall of Morgoth, the Valar had to decide what to do with the half-elven. This is alluded to briefly near the end of the Silmarillion when Mandos asks Manwe what to do about Earendil. It is not completely clear what the exact decision was. Elrond and Elros were required to choose between being elves or men. Elros chose to be mortal and went on to establish Numenor. Elrond chose to be of elvenkind. However, Elros' decision bound his descendents. His grandchild could not suddenly decide to be considered an elf. The sticky point is that Elrond's decision appears to have not bound his descendants. Thus Arwen and her brothers possessed the right to choose the fate of man. Arwen chose to be mortal.

Why the difference between the descendants of Elrond and Elros? Maybe its because the elven blood would continue to be diluted as generations passed for Elros' descendants. In contrast, elves &quot;breed&quot; much slower so, by the end of the Third Age only one generation has passed for Elrond's kin while dozens passed for the heirs of Elros. Recognition of this fundamental difference may have led the Valar to reach their decision.

Interesting that Elrond has twice experienced the loss of kin due to this choice - Arwen and Elros. Also, I just realized the obvious; Elrond is Aragorn's &quot;uncle&quot; umpteen times removed.


09-19-2000, 09:46 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> And aragorn

is the &quot;nephew&quot; of arwen,and Celeborn is
the Great-great-father-in-law of him(via celebrian,wife of elrond)


09-19-2000, 09:54 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> And aragorn

's great-great-father-in-law is Celeborn,and arwen's &quot;nephew&quot;.


09-19-2000, 10:44 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: And aragorn

Actually, Arwen is Aragorn's 75th (give or take a few) cousin.

Arwen, along with Elladan and Elrohir, had a choice between mortality and immortality, but it was a more restrictive choice than their father's. In order to remain immortal, they were obligated to follow Elrond when he crossed over the sea. Since they did not, they became mortal.


09-19-2000, 11:47 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Following Elrond

Eldarion...could you provide a reference for this remark that Elrond's children had to follow him to remain immortal. This is not the first time I've heard this mentioned but I don't seem to remember it from the books. Thanks a lot!!



Tar Elenion
09-19-2000, 08:56 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Following Elrond

Arwen chose the 'Fate of Men' so as not to be seperated from Aragorn forever. When Men die their spirits 'seek elsewhither'. The spirits of the Elves are bound to Arda.

The remark from Eldarion is (essentially) correct, App. A says that Elrond's children must choose to pass with him from the circles of the world or to remain and become mortal. However in Letters JRRT clarifies that the Twins delay their choice and remain for a time (L 153), whereas Arwen made her choice at the time she wed Aragorn (in an early concept her choice was made because she wed Aragorn, but this concept changed, if you get the difference).



09-20-2000, 09:26 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> The End of Arda

I believe, as you do, Tar Elenion, that Arwen chose to become mortal so she could remain with Aragorn after death. Tolkien does make several references in the Silmarillion to a type of Armageddon-like battle between Good and Evil after which Arda will be no more. After this battle the Final Fates of the souls of Men and Elves is left purposely unclear, I believe. It is hard to conceive that a loving God such as Iluvatar would force the eternal separation of the two kindreds of his Children who had been so close at times and had forged such deep friendships and alliances. I would like to believe that after this Final Battle that the souls of Elves and Men may be reunited...though the time of this battle may be far in the future. So even though Arwen had to choose between her father and her husband for a time (and a Long Time indeed), I don't know that it is Forever. Comments?


09-29-2000, 10:31 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: The End of Arda

The elves themselves do not know their fate at the end of Arda and the Valar have not told them. Thus the most difficult thing about the decision of Arwen and the other half-elven who chose mortality is that neither the elven parent/sibling nor the person choosing the mannish fate know if they will ever be reunited. As I said, poor Elrond, his brother, daughter and possibly his sons gone for at least the life of Arda and maybe without hope of reunion.

"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

09-29-2000, 11:47 AM
This is Bible derived idea - about husband and wife becoming united in body and soul, one organizm indeed. So it was impossible for those 3 pairs of elven-human unions to be separated in their fate. Besides, as Aragorns descendants were meant to be Kings of men afterwards, their priority of blood must have been fully accomplished, and by this last union between elves and men only one line of mortals had a blood of all three kindreds in it's veins, only one to be rightfull ruler of the mankind (Kings of Men).

05-20-2003, 04:00 PM
Arwen had to give up her mortal life to be with Aragorn. That's what the Valar told Luthien when they brought Beren back, and Arwen's fate is the same.