The One Ring and Sauron

[CelebrianWifeOfElrond]

OK If Sauron's soul was in the 1 ring, then how come he did not know where it is? And how could regaining the Ring give him a body if he had nothing to put it on? And if Sauron was in the Void, how could regaining the Ring help him, if the Void is inescapable? How did Sauron become the Eye from the Void? HELP! I am so confused!

[Lord of Angmar]

Regaining the Ring was not the necessary pretext for regaining his physical form, and (debatedly) he had regained physical form at the time of the War of the Ring. The Ring did not contain his soul and mind so much as it did a large fraction of his physical strength and will-bending power, so he was (probably) able to take physical form, but in a much weaker state than when he did possess the Ring. I do not think he could think through the Ring, so in that regard he was probably unable to fully visualize the surroundings of the Ring at a given time.

Hope that helps.

Welcome to the Downs, Celebrian.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:59 AM January 04, 2004: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Finwe]

All right, let's start from the beginning.

Sauron was never in the Void. The person you are thinking of is Morgoth, the first Dark Lord, and Sauron's Master, back in the First Age. He was thrown in the Void by the Valar, and won't come back out for a good long time. His second coming is detailed in the Second Prophecy of Mandos, another one of those inane, really obscure facts.

Sauron could sense the location of the Ring. That was how all those Orcs and other Minions kept attacking Frodo and the Fellowship. Since the Ring was evil, they could sense it, and so could Sauron. That was why Frodo kept seeing the Eye when he put the Ring on.

As for the whole finger debate, I think there's a thread devoted to that subject somewhere. Just use the search function at the top of the page, and it will help you find the topics.

[Lord of Angmar]

Sauron could sense the Ring but not its specific location, Finwe. The Ringwraiths did not find out about the Shire because Bilbo or Frodo put on the Ring while in the Shire. If Sauron could sense the location of the Ring, I think he would have sent an army after Sam when he put the Ring on in Mordor.

Also, I could not tell if you were being sarcastic, but I think the Second Prophecy of Mandos is hardly an "inane, really obscure" fact. Not to Tolkienites at least. smilies/smile.gif

That was how all those Orcs and other Minions kept attacking Frodo and the Fellowship. Since the Ring was evil, they could sense it, and so could Sauron.

Orcs could not sense the Ring, nor is it likely that many other of his lesser minions could.

[Firnantoonion]

Orcs could not sense the Ring but they could sense the power emanating from it to some extend, at least, the orc wich meets Sam when he is rescueingFrodo in Mordor senses the power the ring has. he just doesn't realize/know it's the One Ring of whom the power is.

[The Saucepan Man]

As I recall, in UT, the Orcs' ferocity at the Disaster of Gladden Fields and the fact that they did not retreat when charged by Isildur's troops is attributed (in part at least) to the presence of the Ring. The footnote in question suggests that the Ring's effect on the Orcs in this way was a consequence of its (ie the Ring's) intense desire to return to its Master. It provoked in them a subconscious desire to eliminate Isildur and his Men. In effect, it was egging them on.

[Arothir]

Although Sauron wasn't in the Void, would the Destruction of the Ring thrust him into the Void with Morgoth?

[Sauron 666]

I'm sure it would, i can't manufacture a direct quote but i'm sure its mentionned somewhere. Sauron, Saruman and Morgoth in the Void together. Interesting company don't you think? You wonder if they could somehow break out of the void with all their combined strength.

[Lord of Angmar]

I was under the impression that Sauron and Saruman were destroyed after the War of the Ring, and instead of just going to the Void or the Halls of Mandos, they simply ceased to be.

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

My question is, why didn't Sauron just reach down and pick up the ring with the other hand? His body wasn't destroyed (and yes i know he put a lot of himself into the ring) but he only lost one hand, could'nt he just pick it up with the other hand and then kill Isildur?

[Lord of Angmar]

The loss of the Ring took away too much of Sauron's strength to remain in the physical form. As you can already know, he was unable to take physical form for many years after the Last Alliance, so obviously he would not be able to hold physical form immediately after losing the Ring.

[thephantomcredits]

I thought sauron was defeated in battle by Glorfindel ( or Gil Galad,or elendil, I forget who) but in the process they lost their own life Saurons ring was then taken as he laid there after the confrontation. If this wrong?? I thought the account in the movie was off in this way.

[Lord of Angmar]

Glorfindel did not partake in the battle of the Last Alliance. Gil-galad and Elendil did fall in battle, but it was Isildur who at last defeated Sauron and took the Ring.

[thephantomcredits]

what are the differences between the movie account of the confrontation of Sauron in the prologue and the book. I really want to be clear on the distinctions.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I have always thought that Sauron went into the Void after the destruction of the Ring; at least that is how I understand Gandalf's words to the Witch King:

'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'
The Siege of Gondor; LotR

(Bold is mine).

[Lord of Angmar]

Good point, Amarie, I had forgotten those words. The 'nothingness' that Gandalf speaks of could be the lack of existence, but that does not explain 'the abyss.' So perhaps they did go into the Void.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Phantomcredits, in my opinion the main difference between the movie and the book is the way in which Isildur took the Ring:

but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword.
The Council of Elrond; LotR

[thephantomcredits]

thanks amaire

[Dunedain]

I agree with what Amaire says.When Gil-Galad and Elendil dueled with Sauron, although they both died they managed to weaken Sauron considerably so that alll Isildur had to do was cut the ring from his hand and Sauron was banished. Tell me if I'm wrong

[Arothir]

I don't think Saruman was in the Void. He had been slain, yes, but he was incarnate. I don't think Sauron was incarnate. That would mean his "soul" or "fea" ceased to be, and he would then be outside Arda. Saruman would probably go to Namo, and be imprisoned forever.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

That would mean his "soul" or "fea" ceased to be, and he would then be outside Arda. Saruman would probably go to Namo...
If his fea ceased to be, then he would probably not actually be anywhere... At any rate this could not have happened. Fear cannot be destroyed.

He would remain in the world, as the Ainur can never be truly killed within Arda (they tend to hang around, until they are strong enough to take up a physical form again and rise), but -- as the Ring, into which he had poured much of his energy -- was now destroyed, he was too weak to ever again forge himself a new hroa. A mere spirit of mist, blown about by the winds of Middle-Earth is what he became -- unless he indeed left Arda and entered the outer halls of Ea (space, basically), in which case he would be blown about by the solar winds up there forever. Perhaps he found his way back to Melkor, and there resides with him as his dark lord slowly gathers strength, rebuilding his power for his last strike on the world...

Sauron could not have left Ea, though. The Ainur that entered the world at the beginning were bound to stay there until its end.

As for Saruman, I do not think that Mandos took him -- at least not until he had been left in Middle-Earth for a bit.
To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
It looks as if the Valar rejected him. Whether or not he was able to later take incarnate form, I should say he was doomed to stay in Middle-Earth.

[Lord of Angmar]

I have a question Gwaihir. Assuming Sauron did find Melkor, they would be in the Void together, until, as you said, Melkor gathers strength, rebuilding his power for his last strike on the world. If the Void is as far as the fear of Sauron and Melkor can go, then why is Melkor's death in the Last Battle considered to be his final and ultimate death? Would it not be merely sending Melkor out to the Void again, in which case he could just get in again at some later time? In other words, if Melkor's death means he is confined to the Void, then he can never truly be slain, even though his death is what was prophecied for the Last Battle.

[Arothir]

Saruman couldn't stay in Middle-earth, he was killed by Grima. Since he was incarnate as a Man, he would have to depart from the world. Gandalf seems to have done this when the Balrog killed him, but Eru sent him back to destroy Sauron.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Firstly, Arothir, it doesn't matter what form an Ainu takes. Once that physical form is destroyed, or cannot function and dies if it is living, the fea of the inhabitive Ainu is released; where this spirit goes depends. It can go to Mandos, it can remain in Arda and later take form again, it can be drawn to the upper limits of Ea and the Void -- but it must stay within Ea, and is bound to the universe.

An Ainurin fea cannot depart to Illuvatar, for this is a fate reserved to Men alone.
But this condition Illuvatar made, or it is the neccessity of their love [of Ea], that their power should thenceforward be contained and bound within the world, to be within it forever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World. (Ainulindale)

After a few deaths, it may be that an Ainu is weakened so that the forms it can take are less mighty (I do not know if this is true or not, though) -- or in some cases, where they are bound to another (perhaps thing) as in the case of the Balrogs and Sauron, cannot take form again at all.

Remember that Sauron died twice before his final death. He was drowned in Numenor once, and slain by Elendil and Gil-Galad the second time. After both these incidences he did not depart to the void, but remained in Arda to reshape himself.
It is true that he may have been anchored by the Ring, if you do not believe this theory. There are other cases, though.

Gandalf, for instance, who you mention. But Gandalf did not as you suggest go to Eru; he went to Valinor, and was sent back to his body and permitted to reveal his full power by those who had restrained him and sent him in the first place -- the Valar. He could not have left Ea.

Men alone can do this at death.

------

Lord of Angmar.
In answer to your question, I would propose one or two things. Firstly, remember, it was by the Valar that Melkor was shut out of Arda in the first place. It is by the strength of the Valar, the Powers of the World, and their helpers that he is confined to the Timeless Void of the outer limits of space. I understand that this was not done by killing him, but instead by physically shutting him out there. Probably still bound by the (as far as we know... smilies/smile.gif) chain of Aule, Angainor, which may keep him from reforming himself.

But you are right, his killing would not normally stop him as he would continue to exist, in 'naked spirit' form, after his 'death', and perhaps again fashion himself a hroa of physical matter. The circumstances of the Dagor Dagorath, and what exactly is really meant by saying that Morgoth will meet his death in it, are unknowns.

The Last Battle will be after all not exactly normal circumstances. When the world ends, and in the conflict that happens before that, things will likely happen that are way out of line with normality; who knows what that cryptic piece of knowledge, that Melkor will die in the world's end, actually entails? I'm afraid that's really all we can say (all I can say, at any rate smilies/smile.gif). I think it's really only on times up until then that we can talk about.

[Arothir]

I could've sworn Tolkien abandoned the Dagor Dagorath idea in the Valaquenta. There it states that nothing is decreed in the dooms of Mandos about the healing of Arda Marred.