Hierachy of the Elvenkings

[Maéglin]

If the Elves' spirits enter the Halls of Mandos only to be granted a new body when they choose to leave, what happens to the Elves of royal lineage? For example, Finarfin was by right High King of the Noldor in Valinor when his half brother and brother left for Middle Earth. Maedhros relinquished his right to be king in Middle Earth but I have a feeling that his brothers did not really like that decision. They could really dispute Finarfin's rule since they are the sons of the elder child (Feanor). I guess it can be solved if Finwe leaves Mandos as he is after all the 'father' of the Noldor, and of course Fingolfin and Finarfin are on friendly terms, and they probably wouldnt care if either ruled. I'm just wondering about this because the concept of right to rule seems really out of place with Elven immortiality in play.

[burrahobbit]

It might be a good idea to think of there being two kings of the Noldor at any one time. One in Valinor and one in Middle-earth. The king in Valinor would generally stay the same, as he would never die (except Finwe, who refused to leave Mandos anyway). In Middle-earth the kings would frequently die, and though they would be reborn, it would not be in Middle-earth, and they could not return to Middle-earth. Once Maedhros gave up his line's right to kingship there wasn't any chance of kingship changing in Valinor, even if the reborn Feanorians had had any previous claim there.

[Finwe]

What happened was that originally in Aman, titles such as "Prince" were merely titular, no real duties were involved, because the King wouldn't die. This was before the Elves realized that trusting the tall evil Dark Lord was a bad idea.

In Middle-earth, titles such as Crown Prince, Prince, etc. fully came into being, since it was assumed that the High King would eventually be killed in battle, and the crown would pass to his son. It went like that from Fingolfin, to Fingon, and to Ereinion Gil-galad. Maedhros and the House of Fëanor don't count, even though they are the "Elder" House, because they were also the "Dispossessed," which meant that they had no "royal" rights any more. They were just Elven nobles in Middle-earth, not Kings.

Once the High Kings (now dead) reached Mandos' Halls, they were eventually reborn, and I assume they were under the rule of Finarfin, who was the High King of the Noldor in Aman. No matter who the reborn Elf was, be it Fingolfin or Maedhros, Finarfin still had authority over them, since he was High King, and he probably wouldn't die. In the extraordinary case that he did die, the crown would pass to Finrod, his eldest son, not to the House of Fingolfin and definitely not the House of Fëanor.

Finwë couldn't be depended upon to do anything outside of Mandos because of what had happened with Miriel. When Finwë died, and reached the Halls of Mandos, both he and Miriel were given a choice. Miriel could be "let out" in a sense, but Finwë would have to remain behind in Mandos until the End of Days. Naturally, Finwë loving his wife as much as he did, agreed to remain in Mandos forever, and Miriel joined Vairë's following, and helped her with her tapestries.

[Nils]

Once the High Kings (now dead) reached Mandos' Halls, they were eventually reborn, and I assume they were under the rule of Finarfin, who was the High King of the Noldor in Aman. I believe Tolkien decided to go with the 'recreated' theory as opposed to the 'reborn' theory. I don't see Finarfin ruling over his literal father bascially raised from the dead.

[Finwe]

The thing is, Finarfin wouldn't have been ruling over his literal father, because as I said, Finwë remained in the Halls of Mandos.

Even if Tolkien decided to go with the "recreated" theory as opposed to the "reborn" theory, just because a single Elf was released from Mandos was not an excuse to be changing the whole hierarchy of Aman. You just can't run a kingdom that way. Finarfin would have remained the High King, but Elves such as Fingolfin, Fingon, Ereinion, and other High Lords could have joined him in a sort of council, and contributed to the ruling of the Noldor in Aman, rather than completely being subservient to him or anything.

[burrahobbit]

What a novel idea. I'm glad you figured that out.

[Legolas]

Nowhere is Finarfin called a king, much less 'High King.'

There they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm.

and in the city of Tirion upon the green hill Finarfin yet ruled the remnant of the Noldor in the deep cleft of the mountains.

But the host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners marched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwë, and those also of the Noldor who never departed from Valinor, whose leader was Finarfin the son of Finwë.

Finarfin The third son of Finwë, the younger of Fëanor's half-brothers; remained in Aman after the Exile of the Noldor and ruled the remnant of his people in Tirion.

Olwe was not a king, nor Cirdan, nor Celeborn. Simply rulers, lords.

Additionally, I don't think a fallen king returned would want to take over his position once again.

You just can't run a kingdom that way.

Honestly, there's nothing to "run" really.

[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Not in Aman I suppose, no. So it doesn't really matter; whether Finarfin was 'King' or 'Lord' of the Valinorean Noldor, his position would be the same there.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

I guess there was really no need for a real King in Aman. It was a peaceful, happy community and nobody needed 'off with his head'. Maybe the 'rule' could be changed to 'govern'.

Middle Earth, however, was a whole new problem...

-Aredhel

[Legolas]

whether Finarfin was 'King' or 'Lord' of the Valinorean Noldor, his position would be the same there.

Right, but that was entirely not the point. The point was that he was not a king, and thus in the event of a king's return to Aman, there would be no question as to who was in charge as originally posed by the intial post.

Also in response to the intial post, I don't think the sons of Feanor had anymore claim than Finarfin did (less, probably, after Feanor's eldest son passed it on to his other uncle). Those of Fingolfin's line would've had the claim over the title should it come to question...Fingon's line, and then Turgon's (Earendil/Elrond). If Feanor's sons were embodied once again, so too would Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, and Gil-galad, all of which actually were High King. I don't know that it would've been made a big deal of, though. Feanor's sons never seemed to care who was King or what they advised - they did their own thing, looking to fulfill the Oath.

[Arothir]

the hierarchy definite works in Middle-earth, because if a King died, he would probably stay in Valinor once he was recreated. By the way, why didn't Idrilbecome High Queen at the death of Turgon? After all, elves wouldn't be so biased as to not consider daughters eligible to rule. Also, in one place, Idril was clearly called Turgon's heir.

[burrahobbit]

She ran off with Tuor.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

There were no 'High Queens' for the Noldor. The passage about Idril being Tugon's heir aries, at once point Aredhel tells Maeglin that Turgon had no heir. If there were Noldorin high-queens then Idril and or Galadriel would have a better claim to the throne then Gil-Gaalad son of Orordreth, who was son of Aegnor, Galadriel's older brother, but it seems with Turgon's passing the kingship passed from the line of Fingoflin to Finarfin. One also wonders about any male descendants of Finwe's eldest child, Findis, though because of her closer association with the Vanyar maybe they didn't interact much with their Noldorin kinsmen.

[Lost One]

As far as Valinor is concerned, it all depends on the nature of elven kingship there. Originally, elven kingship was not perhaps dynastic as we think it, since the incumbent king was, of course, immortal, so a line of succession wasn't part of the concept. The original leaders from Cuivienen, who became kings, were chosen by the three elven groups to lead them. When Elwe/Thingol disappeared, his group chose his brother ('they took Olwe... to be their king') to replace him - he didn't automatically succeed by hereditary right. Thus, the elven kings in Valinor were chosen by their people and ruled with their consent. So, when Finwe was killed, there was no king of the Noldor, until they themselves chose one, which could not happen in the immediate chaos (Feanor was Finwe's heir in terms of his personal possessions and perhaps allegiances of some sort, but he didn't just inherit the throne). When all this settled down, Finarfin became king in Tirion, presumably by consent of the remaining Noldor. Any 'king' returning from Mandos couldn't simply resume a former station, and in any case the titles assumed in Beleriand had no status or authority in Tirion, so there is only Finwe to be considered at all.

Over in Middle-Earth was another matter, and dynasticism developed out of necessity in Beleriand as elven princes fell thick and fast..

[Finwe]

That is quite true Legolas, but we are assuming that there was something to "run," after all. Now that I look back, I realize that I made an assumption, when I called Finarfin the High King, I think that title should be applied to Ingwë, who was most certainly the High King of all the Eldar (I believe).

I think I'd like to stick with my council idea (see my previous post), because that seems to be the best way for everyone to contribute to the day-to-day ruling of the Noldor in Aman, without any squabbling.

[Arothir]

Idril's running off with Tuor shouldn't really matter. I don't understand why the Elves wouldn't have High Queens. Seems rather sexist to me. Even Numenor allowed females to rule.

[Finwe]

Yes, well, the majority of Elven females were quite feminine, although there are a couple of notable exceptions, such as Aredhel and Galadriel. I understand what you mean about that being sexist, but everyone expected to have at least one son, so they didn't worry about passing on titles to daughters.

In Numenor, the person who altered the Law of Succession was Tar-Aldarion, who was quite an anomaly compared to the other Numenorean kings, so he wasn't really the norm. I'm not sure if any other King would have done the same, so we can't really use that as an example.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

They went to M-E to wrest the Jewels off Morgoth. They were fighting a war and M-E was war ravaged. Elven Men presumably were better at ruling during war-time. This was why the Numenorean law of succession was changed when they came to M-E, as attested by Arvedui.

The Numenorean change was due to Tar-Aldarion being without a son and because of the bad rleations bewteen him and Erendis. Note, the eldest females didn't have to accept to sceptre and could refuse it, if they chose to.