Are the elves in The Hobbit different than the ones in LotR?

[Knight of Gondor]

The elves in The Hobbit are interestingly different in Rivendell than in LotR, you notice? They're jolly, silly, singing silly songs worse than Larry from VeggieTales! I'm guessing perhaps they were kind of solemned up by circumstances surrounding their existance, like maybe they were about to face war. I don't know, but they sure seem different (a better kind of different) in the movie and LotR books...I can't imagine the elves of the movie singing songs like they did in The Hobbit, can you?

Oh yeah, and what does everyone think about Santa's elves? I think maybe they were an accursed breed, dispelled from Middle-Earth after some sort of rebellion, and deported to the North Pole where they repented and set about making kids happy all around the world to make right the wrongs they commited. But it's too bad that those who haven't seen the movie think that elves are those weird creatures of Santa's!

[*Varda*]

I agree they were pretty different. Personally I think this is due to

a) The different writing styles in the hobbit - the elves were meant to be happy and jolly etc - although it seemed to me they were on drugs of some sort

b) In LotR everything was getting more serious. The elves knew their time was approaching it's end and they could go into the West or remain in Middle Earth. They also knew that when the One Ring was destroyed their rings would lose power and many beautiful things would be lost.

For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.

[Galorme]

Elfs are what most people think they are. The Elfin people are the "little people", who Tolkien wrote Goblin Feet about, and originally this was how Eärendil was conceived, riding on the back of a beetle. These are the Elfs that Later on he invented the Elven peoples, who were totally different. But they also sung and were merry, and the Elves in Rivendel were happy and silly during times of peace, though they were slightly sobered up during the War of the Ring. But even at this time Rivendel was a place of song and laughter. The only difference is that Bilbo, who delighted in silliness and songs wrote The Hobbit, and the LoTRs was written by Frodo, who delighted more in the lore and history and the more serious side of the Elves. PJ, when he directed the movie, decided to make the elves seem aloof and unemotional, though I would have been happier with the movie if they sweet singing of the elves had been heard in the valley below when Frodo awoke.

[Galadrie1]

When I went to see the movie, I hadn't read much of LotR (the hobbits hadn't even gotten to Rivendell yet). I'd read The Hobbit, though, and I pictured elves as short little sprites the skipped around singing all the time. I think this is because Tolkien didn't really describe the elves' appearence too much in The Hobbit... am I right? Or maybe he did describe them, but I was happy enough picturing them as slightly more advanced forms of "Santa's elves"....

[Ravenna]

I agree with you Varda about hte elves in the Hobbit seeming high (elves on acid, now theres a thought!) and I found it quite hard to reconcile the two images of Rivendell when I read LOTR for the first time. I appreciate that the Hobbit was a less 'deep' book than its successor, although it did touch on some things to be explored in more depth in the later books, but the difference seems to be so great as to be almost describing two different races rather than the same race with a fifty-odd year age gap, even allowing for the Bilbo/Frodo difference in viewpoint.

[Morquesse]

Greetings,Knight of Gondor! smilies/biggrin.gif
I've also noticed that the Elves of the Hobbit are different then the ones in LotR, of maybe even from the Sil. So I've had a theory: maybe when the Hobbit was first published, it was not meant to be connected to the Sil, or Middle-earth. 1# the elves are different 2# I don't recall the land where Bilbo was being called Middle-Earth 3# in order to work with Tolkien's idea for the LotR, he changed some parts of the Hobbit(the chapter "riddle in the dark" was changed from Bilbo and Gollum having a riddle contest with Bilbo winning, and in reward Gollum gave the ring(I think) and willingly showed Bilbo the way out, to what we have now)4# we always hear that Tolkien was constintly changing the Sil, so he could of worked the history of the Rings in easily.
That's my theory, if anyone see's a problem with it, I'd like to know. smilies/smile.gif
~M

[Manwe Sulimo]

Morquesse, you're correct. Tolkien, when he began to write The Hobbit, did not intend to have it be a part of the saga of the Lost Tales. After he had written about the Necromancer and the orcs, he realized that it was, and finished the book accordingly. (This info from Tolkein: A Celebration.)

[Sarin Elfarmour]

i agree, tolkein wrote the hobbit as a children's book and not connected to the rest of his books until later.

[Galorme]

To be honest, and at the risk of suffering the wrath of the entire forum, I feel that the Elves of the Hobbit are very much the elves of rest of the mythology. There are only two real times where elves are shown in peacetime in a narrative piece. The first is the Hobbit, and the second (or really the first since it is much older) is the Book of Lost Tales. The book of lost tales shows happy, singing elves (acid elves?), as does the hobbit. What I think of the elves is that they feel extremes of all emotions. They feel terrible sorrow in the LoTRs because of the inevitability of their fading, they feel terrible anger and pain in the Silmirilion as they fight with Morgoth. But in the Hobbit they are happy. They sing and dance and are silly and merry and this is the extreme of happiness they feel, with no urge for treasure of power just rejoicing in the glory of Rivendel. I think that when people think of elves they think so much of their power and sorrow that they refuse to except the happiness that they show in the Hobbit and the BoLT, but this is very much part of the elves as well. There is happiness and singing in Valinor too, where the elves have no care, but there is no Narative of this, since the True West was kept deliberately remote and all that is said is that there was great joy. I believe that Tirion would be filled with the silly, carefree singing of the elves that are happy. Cant you people just be happy for them? smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Galorme, that is a very interesting and thoughtful point! Silliness as the extreme form of joy - that does raise its value quite a bit! *applause*

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

That makes sense. Sometimes, when I'm happy, I giggle like a madman. Sometimes I laugh like a hyena. The elves weren't worried about Sauron or the One Ring when Bilbo visited Rivendell. They thought it was lost forever (3000+ years of being missing is long even for an elf).

[Halbereth Diagona]

Santa's elfs are utterly different to Tolkien's elves.
And what's wrong with dancing and being silly? When I'm happy I act utterly demented.

[Knight of Gondor]

Hey, I'm the most demented of all of you! Am too! I'm just saying there's a contrast. But I expect a threat to wipe out your entire existance on the shores of Middle-Earth would sober even an elf up.

[arelendil]

i've decided the so called elves at the north pole are trying to be big and aren't elves but pixies!!

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

I think Santa's elfs stem from the Scandinavian version which were small and magical while Tolkien's elves were from the Celtic version, which were what we know now.