Arwen Imladris
09-09-2003, 02:58 PM
First of all, I did try a search and I could not find a topic like this, so I am deeply sorry if there is already one out there.
Here is a quote from UT in the chapter on the Istari, the Valar are having a council, and they have just decided to choose 3 emissaries to ME to counter Sauron:
‘Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh.’ But two only came forward: Curumo [Saruman], who was chosen by Aule, and Alatar [one of the blue wizards] who was sent by Orome. Then Manwe asked, where was Olorin [Gandalf]? Am P;prom. wjp ws c;ad om grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that ‘Olorin was a lover of the Eldar that remained’, apparently to explain Manwe’s choice). But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word ‘third’). But at that Varda looked up and said: ‘Not as the third’; and Curumo remembered it.
The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Allatar took Pallando as a friend.
On another page of jottings clearly belonging to the same period it is said that ‘Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil to please Yavanna wife of Aule’. There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olorin to Manwe and Varda, Curumo to Aule, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Orome, and Pallando also to Orome (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna).
The meaning of these relations between Istari and Valar is clearly, in the light of the brief narrative just cited, that each Istar was chosen by each Vala for his innate characteristics – perhaps even that they were members of the ‘people’ of that Vala, in the same sense as is said of Sauron in the Valaquenta (The Silmarillion p.32) that ‘in his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people’. It is thys very notable that Curumo (Saruman) was chosen by Aule. There is no hint of an explanation of why Yavanna’s evident.
[bla, bla bla, and then a little later:]
Who was ‘Gandalf’? It is said that in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the ‘Faithful’ of that time that ‘Gandalf’ was the last appearance of Manwe himself, before his final withdrawal to the watchtower of Taniquetil. (That Gandalf said that his name ‘in the West’ had been Olorin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an incognito, a mere by-name.) I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake ot be more explicit than Gandalf was. But I think it was not so. Manwe will not descend from the Moutain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, on coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.
O.K., so my question is why was Gandalf associated with two?
I have no real clue as to why Gandalf was attached to two. It might have just been a *gasp* mistake on Tolkien’s part. Unfinished Tales is a combination of what J.R.R. Tolkien wrote but was never published because he never finished it and what Christopher Tolkien wrote to try and make sense of his father’s writings. Therefore, it could have easily not been what Tolkien originally intended.
Another thing is that Pallando was also originally attached to two of the Valar, but in the end was attached to the same one as Alatar, perhaps that just happens sometimes?
One other thought is that both Varda and Manwe recognized a certain power in Olorin and wanted to control him.
What do you think? Any ideas? This is kind of trivial but very annoying!
Here is a quote from UT in the chapter on the Istari, the Valar are having a council, and they have just decided to choose 3 emissaries to ME to counter Sauron:
‘Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh.’ But two only came forward: Curumo [Saruman], who was chosen by Aule, and Alatar [one of the blue wizards] who was sent by Orome. Then Manwe asked, where was Olorin [Gandalf]? Am P;prom. wjp ws c;ad om grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that ‘Olorin was a lover of the Eldar that remained’, apparently to explain Manwe’s choice). But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word ‘third’). But at that Varda looked up and said: ‘Not as the third’; and Curumo remembered it.
The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Allatar took Pallando as a friend.
On another page of jottings clearly belonging to the same period it is said that ‘Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil to please Yavanna wife of Aule’. There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olorin to Manwe and Varda, Curumo to Aule, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Orome, and Pallando also to Orome (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna).
The meaning of these relations between Istari and Valar is clearly, in the light of the brief narrative just cited, that each Istar was chosen by each Vala for his innate characteristics – perhaps even that they were members of the ‘people’ of that Vala, in the same sense as is said of Sauron in the Valaquenta (The Silmarillion p.32) that ‘in his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people’. It is thys very notable that Curumo (Saruman) was chosen by Aule. There is no hint of an explanation of why Yavanna’s evident.
[bla, bla bla, and then a little later:]
Who was ‘Gandalf’? It is said that in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the ‘Faithful’ of that time that ‘Gandalf’ was the last appearance of Manwe himself, before his final withdrawal to the watchtower of Taniquetil. (That Gandalf said that his name ‘in the West’ had been Olorin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an incognito, a mere by-name.) I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake ot be more explicit than Gandalf was. But I think it was not so. Manwe will not descend from the Moutain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, on coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.
O.K., so my question is why was Gandalf associated with two?
I have no real clue as to why Gandalf was attached to two. It might have just been a *gasp* mistake on Tolkien’s part. Unfinished Tales is a combination of what J.R.R. Tolkien wrote but was never published because he never finished it and what Christopher Tolkien wrote to try and make sense of his father’s writings. Therefore, it could have easily not been what Tolkien originally intended.
Another thing is that Pallando was also originally attached to two of the Valar, but in the end was attached to the same one as Alatar, perhaps that just happens sometimes?
One other thought is that both Varda and Manwe recognized a certain power in Olorin and wanted to control him.
What do you think? Any ideas? This is kind of trivial but very annoying!