Eldarion

[red]

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Ok, Tolkien scholars...enlighten us....

Would Eldarion be considered half-elven? And why?

-red

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[JesTheJade]

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Re: Eldarion

Kind of...umm...I just sat here and tried figuring it out, and I got really confused. <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> Eldarion is the daughter of Aragorn (your basic man, right?) and Arwen. Now, Arwen is the daughter of Elrond and Celebrían. Elrond was a half-elf and Celebrían...I just don't know, but she was the daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel, so I guess she was an elf.

When it all comes down to it, Eldarion is like...um..3/8-elven. The numbers don't really matter I guess, but yes, as far as I can tell, she is basically half-elven.

Somone please correct me if I am way off. If not, I hope it helped. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

Jes

I usually watch over <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com>The Barrow Downs</a> and <a href=http://pub28.ezboard.com/bamonhen>Amon Hen</a>.

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[red]

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Re: Eldarion

Well, you're definitely way off on gender. Eldarion is male. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Eldarion

The 'Half-elven' were the Peredhil, Elros and Elrond. These two were actually not 1/2 elven. They were the descended maternally from Elves, Men and Maiar, and paternally from Elves and Men. The term 'half-elven' was also used for Earendil and Elwing, but I don't think they were Peredhil.

So, where does that leave Eldarion? He was descended through many many generations from both Elrond and Elros, so he would have definitely carried the blood of the Peredhil. But, because of the great sundrance over time between ELros and Aragorn, I don't think that Eldarion could be considered anything other than mortal, and thus Man - not helf-elven. His mother was mortal when she concieved and bore him. Aragorn was also mortal.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[HerenIstarion]

if we consider Eldarion as half-elven,whole system of the world is crushing down. The meaning of the Aragorn-Arwen union is reunion of sundered blood of those, whose ancestors were three kindreds - Maiar, Elves and Men. By achieving this, with the start of the Age of Men, the line with such blood reunited in it's veins obtains mystical right to be theKings of this renewed earth, but being mortal, of course - cause the time of elder race is gone for ever.

[JesTheJade]

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Re: Eldarion

HAHAHA...boy do I feel stupid. I'll just take a moment of silence to try and regain any available dignity.

* * *

Okay, that's a little better. Oops. <img src=redface.gif ALT=":O">
(...Their answers are better...)

Jes

I usually watch over <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com>The Barrow Downs</a> and <a href=http://pub28.ezboard.com/bamonhen>Amon Hen</a>.

<a href=mailto:JesTheJade@excite.com>JesTheJade@excite.com</a></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000050>JesTheJade</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/anim_1.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 9/30/00 7:25:15 pm

[Gil-numen]

If you trace Eldarion's descent through his great-grandparents (Earendil, Elwing, Celeborn, Galadriel, Dirhael, Ivorwen, Arador, Unnamed Mortal) he is half-elven.
Through his grandparents he is half-elven because Elrond is an elf.

-----------------------------
"Show it to me"
Thingol to Beren

[Finwe]

The title of "Peredhel" or "Half-elven" was given only to Elrond and Elros, even though they weren't technically Half-elven. All other children of half-elven unions were mortal. Those two were different because of what Earendil did, and the choice given to him. Elrond chose to become an Elf, and thus, was numbered among the Elves. Elros chose to become a Man, and thus, he and the rest of his line became Mortal. Elrond's children were also given the choice, and we know that Arwen chose to be Mortal. That would mean that all of her children would be mortal as well, especially since she married a Man, Aragorn.


Ergo, Eldarion would be mortal, and not numbered among the Half-elven.

[Frodo2968thewhite]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't Eldarion live longer than a normal man, though? I mean, he is the decendant of the Dunedain, and MUST have SOME elvish in him?!?!?!?!? *tired* HELP!!!

[Lhunardawen]

I believe he would live longer than Men of his time. Aragorn, after all, ruled for 120 years as King. And he IS a Dunedain.

[Kalimac]

He'd live a good long while. First of all, there's the Dunadain factor, and secondly, if Arwen is at all like Elros (not that their cases are precisely parallel, but they both had the option of going immortal and chose mortal instead) she'd also pass down a long lifespan for her son. Elros, after all, lived for several hundred years even though he was mortal.

[Knight of Gondor]

Yeah, I'd have to say no, but he'd have long life span. Arwen gave up the life of the Elves, after all.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:20 PM December 28, 2003: Message edited by: Knight of Gondor ]

[symestreem]

Luthien was also mortal when she had Dior, but Dior was considered an elf and Thingol's heir. Let's see: Elrond is 5/8 elven. He marries Celebrian, who is 8/8 elven. Their children will be 13/16 elven, although they will carry all the traits of elves and will be considered elves. Arwen marries Aragorn, who is 0/16 elven. He may have elvish blood, but he is not elven. 13/16 + 0/16 = 13/16,/2= ...ehh... 13/32 I believe. So, Eldarion is 13/32 elvish and 19/32 mortal. (Don't try and follow my math...) Also, not all other children of half-elven unions were considered mortal. Dior and Earendil were the only two true half-elven, and they were both considered elves. There is no record of Dior choosing his kindred, although Earendil did so. Elwing was the child of a half-elven and an elf, and she had the choice to belong to either kindred. Elrond and Elros were born before their parents chose their kindreds, which may have been why they also had to choose, although Earendil and Elwing seem to have been considered elvish anyway- they led the remnant of the elves from Doriath and Gondolin.
Sorry if this is a bit rambling and unrelated to Eldarion. Eldarion would probably end up like the men of Dol Amroth- mortal with elvish blood. Although why he wouldn't be considered elvish like Dior I don't know- the circumstances are quite similar. *scratches head* Oh well.

[Olorin_TLA]

Anyone know if Aragorn was longer-lived than the Kings after him? If not, I'd think Eldarion would be, for the above reasons.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

There is no record of Dior choosing his kindred

Symestreem, that is because Dior never chose it, he was mortal. Only to Eärendil and Elwing, and their children it was given the right to choose.

Anyone know if Aragorn was longer-lived than the Kings after him?

I do think so, Olorin. It is implied in these words said by Aragorn to Arwen:

Nay, Lady, I am the last of the Númenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days, and to me it has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-Earth, but also the grace to go at my will, and give back the gift.
The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen; Appendix A

[symestreem]

I disagree, Amarie (politely of course smilies/smile.gif ). I don't think the elves would have counted a mortal as "Thingol's heir." The Sil says "No mortal man spoke ever again with Beren son of Barahir;...". Unless Beren took a vow of silence not to speak to his son smilies/wink.gif this would seem to imply that Dior was not mortal. The Sil also says " ...; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf. There fell Celegorm by Dior's hand, and there fell Curufin, and dark Caranthir; but Dior was slain also, and Nimloth his wife...". This could be interpreted differently, but I think it is saying that Dior was an elf.
Hmm... is it possible for Dior to have been a mortal elf? This goes against the definiton of elf, but then how do you explain Arwen if that can't be so?

[Alimarwen]

Well, if you take bloodlines to be genetics, then Eldarion and all the daughters of Aragorn would be considered (roughly) half-elven, even if they wern't given the official title of Peredhil. (sp?) And though Arwen forsake her immortality when she married Aragorn, if we take the example of Luithien (who bore Elros and Elrond, right?) then Eldarion would be able to choose his speicies. Also, if he had chosen to be Elven (he didn't, he went on to be the next king of Gondor and Arnor) he would even have been able to go into the West. I just went and checked (because I couldn't remember exactly smilies/eek.gif ) and you can see that Legolas and Gimli went into the West together after King Elessar died. It doesn't make note of it, but also, in theory, one of Aragorn's daughters could have made the choice and left Middle Earth.
Sorry if that didn't make too much sense...I'm on a sugar high smilies/biggrin.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

This could be interpreted differently, but I think it is saying that Dior was an elf

However he is referred to, Dior had mortal blood in him. And so he was mortal. Anyone with mortal blood in them is mortal, unless offered the choice by Eru (thorugh the Valar). Dior was never given that choice. Of those with mixed mortal and immortal blood, the only ones who were offered the choice of immortality were Earendil and Elwing and their line.

Eldarion would never have had the choice, since the blood in his veins was purely mortal (as Arwen chose mortality), even though it was part Elven too.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Symestreem, I only want to add to the perfect explanation given by Saucepan Man a quote from the Silmarillion, in HoME 5:

Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves of Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.
The Lost Road and Other Writings - HoME 5

As you can see form this quote, Dior was mortal because he had the blood of Beren and, at that time, all that have mortal blood were mortal, irrespective of the amount of elven blood they had.

Hmm... is it possible for Dior to have been a mortal elf? This goes against the definiton of elf, but then how do you explain Arwen if that can't be so?

Neither Arwen nor Dior are elves, they are half-elven (each one with different percentages of maia, elven and mortal blood, of course). The difference between them is that Arwen had to choose her destiny, because she is the daughter of Elrond who is the son of Eärendil and Elwing, and Dior was fully mortal, whithout choice.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 10:17 AM December 31, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

[symestreem]

Good quote, Amarie. Not having read the HoME, I hadn't seen it. But I don't think it applies to Dior, for a simple reason: he was dead. "At that time, all those who had mortal blood were mortal..." but he had already been slain by the sons of Feanor. My impression is of Manwe basically saying: OK, this is getting out of hand, here's how it will be from now on. From what I read of the Sil even the Valar had trouble deciding this: "Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?"... "And answer unto me: whether is he Earendil Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, turgon's daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwe?"
If Dior is mortal, than there are many discrepancies; for example, why would a people that did not allow men to aid them count one as their king? Does anyone know what relation Nimloth was to Celeborn? From there we may be able to establish whether she was Caliquendi or Moriquendi. If she was Eldar, and Dior was mortal, their marriage is not listed among the unions of Edain and Eldar in Appendices of RotK.

OK, I answered my own question: it doesn't matter, because either way she was Eldar, and so if Dior was mortal their marriage would probably have been listed under unions of Eldar and Edain.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:25 PM January 01, 2004: Message edited by: symestreem ]

[Gil-numen]

Finwe, I didn't say he was Half-Elven, I just said he had 1/2 elven blood due to his funky descent.

--------------------------------
"Show it to me"
Thingol to Beren

[Finwe]

I think we better make a distinction right now, between the Half-elven and those whose descent is half Elven.


Half-Elven: Elrond and Elros
half Elf: all the other characters whose descent is half Elven


That will clear up a lot of confusion for us Tolkien purists. smilies/wink.gif

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Symestreem, I understand the word Now in the sentence 'Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal', as meaning 'Until now'; which is supported by this comment of Christopher Tolkien to the text I quoted previously:

9 - It is to be observed that according to the judgement of Manwë Dior Thingol's Heir, son of Beren, was mortal irrespective of the choice of his mother.
Quenta Silmarillion; The Lost Road and Other Writings - HoME 5


In my opinion, the main half-elven problem is that there is a difference between 'biology / genetics' and 'doom'. That Dior is mortal (doom) doesn't mean that he is a man (biology); he is a half-elf (biology), because his father was a man and his mother was an elven woman (half elf and half maia).
Dior was the only heir of Thingol, being the only son of Lúthien, and that is why he was the king of Thingol's people, and he was a half-elf, I don't see any problem here, but I may be wrong.

Does anyone know what relation Nimloth was to Celeborn?

At least in one of the versions of the Silmarillion, Nimloth is the great granddaugther of Elmo, the youngest brother of Thingol; and the niece of Celeborn (HoME 11, The War of the Jewels). It is said that Elmo remained in Middle-Earth with Thingol, and I assume that Nimloth was born in Doriath, in Middle-Earth.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

The way I see it, being mortal is the 'dominant gene', and immortality is the recessive one, which would mean that anyone with mortal blood is immortal. That is not EXACTLY right, but it might be enough to convince those who want to rely on science. smilies/eek.gif smilies/mad.gif smilies/eek.gif

[Finwe]

Actually, no. That would mean that whoever has mortal blood would remain mortal.

[symestreem]

This no longer has anything to do with Eldarion, does it? So- he was "Half-elven" by birth and mortal by doom?

[Finwe]

You could kind of say so.

[Lost One]

This may be completely wrong (for which I apologise in advance), but wasn't the story of Dior and the Ruin of Doriath one of the parts of the legendarium that Tolkien had barely revisited? and thus Christopher Tolkien had to do the most work on when producing the Silmarillion? This doesn't make the various inferences about Dior illegitimate, but it does look as though Tolkien had not really thought through the ramifications of his various thoughts on human/elvish descent. I see the strength of the 'Dior is mortal' argument, but also - like several others, so far as i can see from this thread - this idea strikes me as just feeling wrong. Perhaps the presence of a Maiar element can make a difference here: Dior, his soon-lost sons and the only survivor Elwing were completely unique in this aspect of their descent: grandxhildren of a Maia.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:36 PM January 01, 2004: Message edited by: Lost One ]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:39 PM January 01, 2004: Message edited by: Lost One ]