Balrogs and Sauron

[the witch king]

Hello, i was just thinking could Sauron controle 'free'* Balrogs? I mean they were maiar would a Balrog accept Sauron as Morgoths succesor?

*After Morgoth was put in to the Outer Dark

[Inderjit Sanghera]

It is probable that after Morgoth's fall and banishment, the Balrog of Moria was the only one left. I doubt whether Sauron could control him, since they were both pretty powerful Maia, though with the One Ring, he would have a better chance to.

[lathspell]

I don't think Sauron could control the Balrogs, and I don't think he meant to. Where else than in Moria would he have liked a Balrog (except in his army, but this is out of the question because he couldn't control it).
Sauron as 'his puppet', which made the pass near Isengard very dangerous. Caradhras was also a way with risk. And then a Balrog in Moria to block all the ways from West to East and the otherway round. Could it be better? smilies/wink.gif

greetings,
lathspell

P.S.: By the way, I doubt if Sauron knew there was a Balrog in Moria. The Wise didnt know until Gandalf had to fight it.

[lathspell]

Sauron as 'his puppet'

Sorry people.
This should of course be:
Saruman as 'his puppet'!

[Mithadan]

You may wish to check (or post on) this thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000427) which addresses the same subject in some length.

[Legolas]

As to whether or not the balrog was under the direct control is debatable and a case could be made for both sides. Just because Sauron is now the Dark Lord does not automatically place the balrog under his authority. It's possible that the balrog would acknowledge Sauron as Morgoth's heir, but not definite. From 'Myths Transformed':

Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremedable allegiance to evil (Morgoth).

That quote means *even* orcs could disobey Sauron, so a balrog definitely could. That doesn't necessarily mean he would have. Anyway, the most likely scenario (as it seems to me) is that Sauron left the balrog in Moria as a pawn A) to prevent dwarves from reinhabiting Moria and B) possibly to combat Rivendell or Lorien when his armies began to move. This is never given the chance (as Sauron fell before he expected to, I'd imagine) to be carried out, so we don't know.

[ February 13, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[the guy who be short]

if the balrog was once a maia, it should be intelligent. however, all it does is roar a bit. are balrogs actually intelligent?
if they are, then the balrog might have joined forces with sauron to rule the world, if not then it might have been his slave if he found out about it.
ive found a minor problem: the ring lived in moria. the balrog, a powerful maia, slave of sauron and force of extreme evil, also lived in moria. how comes he didnt notice its presence? surely a servant of morgoth would feel the power of the ring?

[the witch king]

The Balrog diddnt 'roar' it was silent, and i diddnt know the ring lived in Moria thort gollems cave was in the north and Moria was more to the south.

[Jurion]

Do you remember what the emmisary of Sauron said to Dain, King of the Lonely Mountain:
Find it (The One Ring), and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possesed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours forever. (II, The Council of Elrond)

This suggests that if Sauron knew of the Balrog in Moria, he was also in control of him.

[the guy who be short]

very good point there.

how powerful was the balrog though? sauron was an extremely powerful maia wasnt he, if it took 5 others (the wizards) to rival him. if the balrog was inferior, it might have been under his control

[Dain]

Sauron is probably the most powerful of the maia--all maia are not equal. Morgoth was the most powerful of the Valar because he used all of his thougt and power to increase his power, while he was also the most powerful to begin with. Sauron learned a lot from his old master, and in fact did much of the work for Morgoth (breeding Orcs, preparing his armies, etc.), and somewhere I think Tolkien even said "Sauron at the end of the third age could be considered as powerful as Morgoth at the end of the first" or something like that (in a letter or note, not text). Sauron has raised himself above the level of many of the "simpler" maiar spirits, among which I count balrogs. But, even if he is more powerful than a balrog, I don't think he could easily get Durin's Bane to join his armies, and he knows it can serve a purpose where it is, anyway.

[obloquy]

Sauron is probably the most powerful of the maia--all maia are not equal.

No, they're not all equal, but there's no reason to believe Sauron was the most powerful. He outranked all of Morgoth's other Maiarin servants, but that only means he was the most powerful Maia to rebel.

Morgoth was the most powerful of the Valar because he used all of his thougt and power to increase his power, while he was also the most powerful to begin with.

Melkor did not increase his power. He was his most powerful in his beginning and went downhill after that.

and somewhere I think Tolkien even said "Sauron at the end of the third age could be considered as powerful as Morgoth at the end of the first" or something like that (in a letter or note, not text).

It's in Myths Transformed from HoMe X. But if you read the context, you'll see that what it means is not that Sauron had necessarily raised himself to Morgoth's level, rather that Morgoth had become so weakened.

[drigel]

I am not convinced. If Sauron had the abitlity to rule or control a Balrog he most certainly would have already done so. The Moria Balrog was freed and running around loose for quite a while, and Sauron was aware of it. The argument that Sauron "choose" not to do anything isnt valid in my opinion. If you have enough orcs, you could control that area of the Misty Mountains. You dont need a Balrog.

Being a Maia to me doesnt necessarily mean that there is intelligence. There is a spirit though, be it benevolent or malevolent. And there is a degree of the power of that spirit, lesser or greater. Sauron was described as Morgoths greatest captains, wasnt he? To me, that sounds like a Number 1 (sorry about the Trek reference)...

[Dain]

Well, if it was just orcs in Moria, I think the dwarves would have come back. It was Durin's Bane that kept them out for all those years, not the orcs. Sauron was operating in secrecy for so long, and a balrog is not an easy thing to hide from people. I don't think he was necessarily able to fully control the balrog, but Sauron is definitely more powerful.

About Morgoth, I felt that while he was the mightiest (I'm still not clear whether Manwe was his equal or not--Tolkien says "coeval") to begin with, the fact that he obsessed with power and violence made him more able in those areas than almost all of the other Valar combined, that's all. I mean, it was him against the rest for a long time, and they had trouble subduing him. And if Gandalf was Sauron's equal, why isn't the White Council able to subdue him? I think it's all a matter of what they specialize in, and since Sauron is a master of deception and destruction, he is the most powerful Maia (in ME) in that. I don't think Balrogs are in his league...

[aragornreborn]

I agree with Dain.

In LOTR, Gandalf does say something to the effect of "I am the most dangerous person you'll meet unless perhaps you meet Sauron." The "perhaps" indicates that Gandalf is pretty close to being as powerful as Sauron if he isn't already. Same with the Valar and Melkor. It seems ridiculous that Melkor could be powerful enough to overcome all the Valar combined. I do think Melkor was coeval with Manwe at the beginning and that he lost his power as he went. He does seem to have an edge in the violence department (as does Sauron), however. So, to me, that explains why Sauron and Melkor were able to last so long. Even though they were in the minority and were not the most powerful they had an edge in the violence/destruction area. Also, it's hard to get good guys to agree to fight, because fighting does go against good tendencies. Hmmmm, we may be seeing that playing out in global politics, right now. The similarities are rather striking. But, that is getting supremely off topic and will no doubt open a can of worms, so I'll just let you all think about it to yourselves!

[daman_daman]

One thing i believe is that Gandalf could easily have been Saurons equal, but in the "spirit realm" so to speak. When Manwe asked Gandalf to go help middle earth, he was afraid to come, not necessarily because Sauron was so powerful, but because Gandalf could not use his Maia powers in middle earth to rival Sauron. Gandalf was the only one who succeeded and stayed the course, so that must be why Manwe chose him because he could percieve what was to happen somewhat and he knew Olorin was true of heart. Maybe I am rambling, sorry.

[obloquy]

About Morgoth, I felt that while he was the mightiest (I'm still not clear whether Manwe was his equal or not--Tolkien says "coeval") to begin with

MT says that Melkor was the mightiest of all in his beginning, and all of the Valar combined could not contain him. "Coeval" just means "as ancient." They were brothers.

And if Gandalf was Sauron's equal, why isn't the White Council able to subdue him?

Because Gandalf was in a humble form that was imposed upon him to limit his options. He was not allowed to march up to the Black Gates and challenge Sauron to a duel. It would have done no good, anyway, since Sauron could never be wholly defeated without the destruction of the Ring. You say, "well, slay Sauron like Isildur did -- temporarily -- and go toss the Ring afterwards." But what about his Nazgul, and his vast armies of orcs and foreign allies? No, the only way for the mission to succeed was through shrewdness and secrecy. That is why Gandalf alone succeeded -- he was not so impressed with his own power to ignore the wisdom of the Valar and stick to a humble plan.

he is the most powerful Maia (in ME) in that. I don't think Balrogs are in his league...

Saying 'most powerful Maia in Middle-earth in some area' is a cop-out. Please see this thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001972) and this thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001982) for my arguments as to the relative greatness of Sauron and Gandalf.

Sauron was more powerful than the Balrogs, though. Tolkien is pretty plain about it in MT: Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs.

aragornreborn:

It seems ridiculous that Melkor could be powerful enough to overcome all the Valar combined.

Seems ridiculous? From Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Finrod speaking: "Yet there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only."
Tolkien backs this up himself in Myths Transformed.

I do think Melkor was coeval with Manwe at the beginning and that he lost his power as he went.

Coeval just means 'same age.' But I see what you're saying, and you're partly right. Melkor did diminish pretty rapidly, but he was more powerful than Manwë in the beginning.

One thing i believe is that Gandalf could easily have been Saurons equal, but in the "spirit realm" so to speak.

You're close. Not necessarily the "spirit realm", but in their eälar origins. As for Gandalf being afraid of Sauron, I address that in the threads I linked to above. I believe it was humility and innocence.

[Dain]

I see what you are saying, now. It was sort of what I was getting at, but you are more accurate. Gandalf had specific limitations on what he could do, that makes sense, and though maybe I'm not yet convinced he was quite a match for Sauron, I don't really want to get into an discussion that you've already had. I think Morgoth was very powerful, but much too chaotic and angry--I think Sauron is much more dangerous in a way, because he is more cunning and devious (originally one of Aule's best students...). It says in the Silm. that in everything Morgoth did, Sauron was there with him, and the label "the greatest of his captains" is a little unfair to Sauron, as is definitely comparing him to Will Riker... Sauron terrorised ME for two ages, and they were very lucky to get rid of him, he deserves all the respect he gets for being the best baddie ever.

Underlying my thoughts here is my attempt to figure out the relative powers of the 1st and 3rd ages--the 1st clearly has the greatest heroes, and more big monsters--Balrogs are common--but uber-villians-wise, Sauron is still around in the 3rd age, and nobody there can hope to match him, bar Gandalf. That's why Gandalf is so cool...