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red
10-15-2000, 05:12 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 56</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Is there any reference anywhere as to how many Rangers remained in the North of ME at the time that Aragorn was their captain? I know that 30 were led by Halbarad to meet Aragorn in Rohan, but that was only the number that could be gathered in haste when they received their &quot;summons&quot;.

-red

"I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will."</p>

TarAncalime
10-15-2000, 05:26 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 3</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Rangers of the North

I don't remember ever reading exact number, but, considering those 30, I deem the whole quantity must have been no more than 200 - 300

ps, it is H-I posting in fact - by mistake I logged in with the old one nick (sorry) <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000379>TarAncalime</A> at: 10/15/00 7:40:15 pm

red
10-15-2000, 06:06 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 57</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Rangers of the North

And how exactly did you arrive at these numbers? Just pulled them from out of the blue? ***Hmmmm...200-300 sounds aobut good...yeah, I'll go with that, yeah!*** <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

-red

"I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will."</p>

HerenIstarion
10-15-2000, 06:13 PM
Out of the blue, yes. But let me speculate, nevertheless:

30 gathered in haste, right. Suppose there were 30 more, that were not able to gather, which gives us 60 warriors in full manhood + their parents (long lived as all the rest of them) 120 = 180 + their wives 60= 240 + their children 60 = 300 . Suppose some of them were not married, or had parents dead, or had no children, that gives us 200-300. Speculation all through, of course

red
10-15-2000, 06:25 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 58</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Rangers of the North

That is so ridiculous. Anyone actually know of a reference? I want to know what Tolkien had in mind. I'm not interested in silly mathematics based on unfounded assumptions.

-red

"I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will."</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000094>red</A> at: 10/15/00 8:38:04 pm

Lady Eowyn
10-15-2000, 07:17 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
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Re: Rangers of the North

H-I how exactly do you know there were 30 more. Maybe there were only 6 more which they couldn't find, or were to far away. In that case your math wouldn't work....

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

Zoe
10-16-2000, 02:58 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: Rangers of the North

How about we just say no more than about 300 altogether?

The proportion of how many went to war / how many didn't would depend a lot on their communication systems, how far apart they were distributed, how many were sick/injured, etc etc. Would I be right in assuming that they were spread out over a fairly large area, and they could only communicate over these distances by sending a runner? If so, then the number who stayed could be almost equal to the number who went. It all depends.

I think that perhaps 200 in total is a pretty decent figure. It's not as high as 300, but if it were much less than that, the Rangers of the North would end up all being inbred fairly quickly. (Or did they regularly marry with non-Ranger people? I wouldn't know.)

Yes, I did just pull all of this reasoning out of thin air. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

</p>

dogtrot
10-16-2000, 12:22 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 60</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Rangers of the North

red i can't find anyplace in the silma or lotr that states any total numbers of the dwindling duneadains of the north. everything else is just a guess. as far as what tolkien had in mind for their surviving numbers at this point in m-e history who knows?

</p>

red
10-16-2000, 04:42 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 61</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Rangers of the North

Thanks for trying, dogtrot. I've been through the Silma, LotR and UT but I was hoping maybe one of the resident scholars might have some info from HoME, which I do not have and have never read. I can keep hoping! <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

-red

"I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will."</p>

Tar Anarion
10-17-2000, 02:25 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 20</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Rangers of the North

why couldnt the remains of Arnor e over 300? there is several areas possible for inhabitation. They could have been spread, some living to the west and some in the angle or something - plus in rivendell. To the west, below the baranduin I think...

"People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." Admin at http://pub22.ezboard.com/bworldoftolkien74993The Prancing Ponie</a> and in the http://pub20.ezboard.com/bdunedainscampDunedains Camp</a>. </p>

dogtrot
10-17-2000, 03:43 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 62</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Rangers of the North

yes TA, but i think red was wanting to know if there were anything written about the rangers of the north and their numbers. we can only guess to their exact population and 300 could be as good a guess as any.

</p>

lindil
01-15-2001, 09:56 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 227</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
the Rangers 'hidden fastness' and #'s

I recently came across a quote of David Salo ,[at the Dun.camp iI think ]
who says that a scra o' writing at Marquette [where all of JRRT's manuscripts [or alot re: LotR anyway] are kept , and it said that the rangers 'hidden fastness' was in the angle of the Mitheithel and the loudwater.

this fits the statementof JRRT [re: Bree] that no other settlements of men were to be found w/in 100 leauges of the Shire.

I had always wondered where they lived , now I get to wonder what the town or stockade or castle [rebuilt ruins of an old Rhudaurian or Elven settlement?] looked like and...

BTW I think the inbreeding point is no joke, i would bet , like the eldar they did not marry 1st cousins , so I would say Heren Istation's estimate waas very reasonable.
We know that to some degree the wandering companies of Elves, and the Dunedain had lines of communication , although they seem to have been at the speed of feet and hooves .

they were in fact spread over a vast area from fornost [mentioned in bree] to Rivendell to the shire and I would guess to tharbad in the south - to monitor the scant butincreasing traffic from isengard that is an area roughly 300 miles[n/s] by 500 miles[e/w] .
It would take alot of time to get people from one end of Eriador to another [Rivendell or their hidden fastness , being on th far eastern corner of Eriador], and we know the Rangers met up w/ Aragorn in Rohan pretty quickly. Halbarad also is essentially apologizing for not bringing more of their folk w/ him meaning their must have been more than a few who could have come.
the glimpses we are given of the Rangers via Bombadil's vision during the tales he told at the barrow [horseless], the description of Aragorn's typical [not to mention his nick- name] mode of travel through bree by bombadil [horseless], and there being no mention of Ranger's horses by Aragorn at Weathertop as he is examining foot and hoof prints and descring the firewood as prob. left by a ranger [standard practice whereby information can be discretely left also].
And as all that went south to Rohan had horses, this would suggest to me that only those close by Rivendell and their fastness [presumably where the horses where kept] made the journey south , leaving a skeleton crew to guard their community and bring the group that was watching the shire and bree and fornost and such , back to the hidden dwelling to guard it , and then leaving the shire and bree exposed.

so again I think H.I.'s numbers are a very good extrapolation of the few facts we have . The newly revealed location of the dwelling place only confirms that deduction.


'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. </p>[i]

Saulotus
01-15-2001, 12:01 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 379</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the Rangers 'hidden fastness' and #'s

{QUOTE]and it said that the rangers 'hidden fastness' was in the angle of the Mitheithel and the loudwater.[/quote]
This is correct information.
I haven't performed a search here on it; but I believe this was mentioned some time ago.

</p>

lindil
01-16-2001, 12:24 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 234</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
I did

I did a couple of searches , but could find nothing.

Was any thing else said re; the camp ?
I have actually asked this Q. around at other boards and have been met w/ blank screens.

lindil

</p>

the Lorien wanderer
01-16-2001, 02:34 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 95</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: I did

Tell me about it. I asked a couple of friends who are Tolkien readers and I was met with blank faces and a &quot;Why the hell d'you want to know that?&quot;

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

Saulotus
01-16-2001, 02:50 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 381</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: I did

I was actually referring to the Barrow Downs re: search.

</p>

lindil
01-16-2001, 03:36 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 252</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
search

So was I.

lindil

</p>

HerenIstarion
01-17-2001, 09:58 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 350</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: search

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> so again I think H.I.'s numbers are a very good extrapolation of the few facts we have <hr></blockquote>

*bows*

...less doth yearning trouble him who knoweth many songs, or with his hands can touch the harp - his possesion is his gift of glee which God gave him...</p>

Anardil
01-26-2003, 10:52 PM
Sorry for digging up an old topic here, but there are many details about the Rangers of the North that I have long wondered about.

1. Where did the Rangers live? We are told that they were "a secret and wandering people", which seems to imply that many of them would never live long in a single place. Of course, they must have had at least one or two permanent secret bases, otherwise where would they keep their women and raise their children? This thread mentions a "secret fastness" somewhere in the angle between the Hoarwell and Loudwater. Does anyone know more about this?

2. It is clear that many of the inhabitants of Eriador were familiar with the Rangers (e.g. the Bree-land folk), but how many of them knew who they really were? Did Sauron know?

3. It appears that the chief task and purpose of the Rangers was to guard and defend the land of Eriador against orcs, wolves and other enemies. In particular, they maintained a quasi-permanent guard on both the Shire and the Bree-land. Their last chieftain, Aragorn, seems to have spent most of his time travelling abroad and serving the rulers of Rohan and Gondor. Did he appoint a deputy to coordinate the defense of Eriador in his absence? Halbarad perhaps?

4. Clearly the Rangers had strong ties to the Elves of Rivendell, and to Elrond in particular. Indeed, we are told that "Arahael [son of Aranarth] was fostered in Rivendell, and so were all the sons of the chieftains after him". It seems however that an extra special job was done with Aragorn. Were Aragorn's skills (esp. healing) general knowledge among the Rangers, or did he learn them specifically from the Elves?

Any ideas?

Man-of-the-Wold
01-27-2003, 01:51 AM
So, they hung out in the Angle! Well south of the road, no doubt, and not to be confused with the stonework of the evil Hill-men on the road's north sides. This would also be the area of the Hobbits' Forgotten Villages.

We are told that they wandered about Fornost, where there wouldn't have been hardly anyone to protect. So, perhaps, some resided there at times, too. I'd also assumed that around Lake Evendim they would have maintained family dwellings, too, in a not-so settled way, perhaps.

But the Enemy seems never to have ascertained their existence, and one reason may be that they never had much permanence anywhere, even for domestic life, that lasted in the same place for more than a generation or so.

They certainly numbered in the hundreds, at least, counting children, women and older men, altogether. And, seemingly did not intermarry with non-Dunedain, and it seems that the Norther Dunedain never had really intermarried with others, except perhaps, at much earlier times when they may have assimilated Adunaic groups still left in Eriador.

The impression is of the Grey Company being only a portion -- at least a little less than half -- of the those fit for duty.

And, I assume there were other scattered, minor settlements of Eriadorians about that they tried to protect, besides the Breelanders and the Shire, who were the only really significant populations left.

Of course they couldn't do it all, as witnessed by the Orc-raids of the fabled Golfimbul and the wolves during the Fell Winter.

To have them in the Angle, near Rivendell makes sense, although it seemed that when Gilraen left Rivendell, she went to a much more distant location, hence my assumptions about Evendim.

But after Frodo's escape and the onset of the War of the Rings, I would imagine that the Rangers, who did not go with Grey Company, would most likely have been active in eastern Eriador. I'd always pictured them and the Elves of Rivendell not being idle, but coordinating with the Beornings and others across the Misty Mountains, by countering threats and so forth that would have been arising from the Northern Mountains, Ettenmoors and so forth. As the deaths of Aragorn's grandfather and father suggest, that is where they often directed their more strategic, armed attention.

This would also explain, why the Shire was left relatively unguarded, and was then so readily infiltrated by Sharkey's Men in 3019.

[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

Numenorean
01-27-2003, 10:18 AM
Good scope M-O-W and Lindil, all I can add is a link to this excellent essay on Ranger composition and lifestyle: Rangers (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/64660)

Lalaith
01-27-2003, 11:05 AM
The Dunedain were it seems even better horsemen than the Rohirrim.
"..the love that the horses of the Rangers bore for their riders was so great that they were willing to face even the terror of the Door, if their masters' hearts were steady as they walked beside them. But Arod, the horse of Rohan, refused the way..."
(Paths of the Dead, RotK)

lindil
01-27-2003, 02:16 PM
Lailath, Not so much better horsemen I would say but just as the Grey and high-Elves [witness Legolas' way with Arod] had a higher 'level of being' than Men or Dunedain, so to do the Dunedain have a command over themselves and thus [potentially] animals than do the Rohirrim.

If any race of Men in M-E had a knack or training with some level of Osanwe it was the Dunedain of the North [ and less likely but still possible the nobility of Gondor], the Rangers of the North werre in close contact with the Elves of Rivendell and the Wandering Companies, and thus could have maintained and even increased any such skills they would had from the days of their Kingdom. this ability may well have been in play with their horses, and I would surmise have grown to be a genetic trait after succeding generations of communication. The Rohirrim probably had a lesser ability with a very low level of Osanwe with their horses.so the Duneadin were 'better' or higher [in the M-E parlance] than the rohirrim, or indeed any Men now in M-E.

Anardil posted several points: Sorry for digging up an old topic here, but there are many details about the Rangers of the North that I have long wondered about.

Do not apologize! It saves others the labor of finding old threads and linking them [ and Estelyn of [b]closing them smilies/wink.gif or of others reposting/amswering the same information twice. So I can only encourage others - Open old threads! it is far more impressive and heart-warming to see that someone did some research here at the Downs [ or elsewhere] before putting up 'Is Glorfindel of Rivendell and Glorfindel of Gondolin the same Elf?' for the three hundreth time. Researching old threads is also I think, far more likely to get you a maximally comprehensive answer [at least from some smilies/smile.gif]

1. Where did the Rangers live? We are told that they were "a secret and wandering people", which seems to imply that many of them would never live long in a single place. Of course, they must have had at least one or two permanent secret bases, otherwise where would they keep their women and raise their children? This thread mentions a "secret fastness" somewhere in the angle between the Hoarwell and Loudwater. Does anyone know more about this?
As I posted way up above [and Saulotus confirmed] David Salo reported [ or found] a small note amidst the ASrchives at Marquette U. of JRRT's saying that the Dunedain had a Hidden Fastness a the confluence of the Mitheithel [hoarwell] and Bruinen [loudwater] Rivers. Right at the tip, probably so they only had to defend themselves actively to the North, but may have had secret escape routes involving the River. There were probably no other communal dwellings of any significant size in Fornost or Annuminas for 2 reasons, the 300 mile quote in the FotR:
"In those days no other Men had settled dwellings so far west, or within a hundred leagues of the Shire. But in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their origin....They roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen."
, and secrecy, the Dunedain would not be wise to stick their families in places that were well known to Sauron and Co. This is also probably one of the factors as to why they did not just all move into or next door to Rivendell [as it was they were 1oo miles or so straight downstream from Imladris].So news from their could have been exceedingly quick depending on whether boats were usuable for all or part of the river course.

There is no more info re: the Hidden Fastness that I know of, sadly enough. We are extremely lucky to know what we do!

Indeed the Arnorian information gap is probably the largest for any community of such central importance in all of Middle-Earth.

2. It is clear that many of the inhabitants of Eriador were familiar with the Rangers (e.g. the Bree-land folk), but how many of them knew who they really were? Did Sauron know? Other than the Bree-Folk Eriador hardly had any inhabitants! There was the Shire, Bree various Elven settlements [ some not in Eriador proper - that had virtually nothing to do with the Hobbit/Mannish dwellings] A small group of Dwarves in the BLue mountains [again not really Eriador] and some Trolls.

There are also meagre mentions of secret fisher folk and wanderers in the Wild, but all told Eriador was possibly the least populated region of M-E we know of, excepting [ but maybe not!] the Forodwaith.
re: Sauron, we read [UT/LotR Appendices] that the witch-King had fought [ and all but destroyed] the Arnorian descendants thee, so yes Sauron knew something, but the Rangers delibratly kept as low a profile as possible, [and killed Servants of the Enemy when possible.]

3. It appears that the chief task and purpose of the Rangers was to guard and defend the land of Eriador against orcs, wolves and other enemies. In particular, they maintained a quasi-permanent guard on both the Shire and the Bree-land. Their last chieftain, Aragorn, seems to have spent most of his time travelling abroad and serving the rulers of Rohan and Gondor. Did he appoint a deputy to coordinate the defense of Eriador in his absence? Halbarad perhaps?
We do not know but clearly the Raqngers were as heirarchical as any in M-E, so we can suppose that Halbarad [as a 'kinsman'of Aragorn] is certainly a suitable candidate as he speaks for the group when encountering Theoden and co.. But in a community as small as I suppose the Rangers of the North to have been, probably everyone was rather closely or loosely related.

4. Clearly the Rangers had strong ties to the Elves of Rivendell, and to Elrond in particular. Indeed, we are told that "Arahael [son of Aranarth] was fostered in Rivendell, and so were all the sons of the chieftains after him". It seems however that an extra special job was done with Aragorn.

Well, he was adopted by Elrond, probably the first mortal so adopted since Thingol's ill-fated harboring of Turin. Also Elrond had prophesied that Aragorn had a High-Destiny as one of 2 possibilites for his future. So yes, Aragorn was probably given even more care in his upbringing than other cheiftans of the Dunedain raised there.


Were Aragorn's skills (esp. healing) general knowledge among the Rangers, or did he learn them specifically from the Elves?

We do not know what came from where, but surely a little sympathetic contact with High-Elves goes along way. And no man [ in his day] had more contact with Elves than Aragorn. Being Arwen's bethrothed also undoubtedly increased some of his sensitivities. Ironically enough, the dream sequence in TTT is based on the very real statments concerning Arwen 'watching over him in thought'.

I have not plumbed HoME 6-9 very deeply, but would be very interested in idea's JRRT may have had regarding rangers and Arnor that did not make it into the LotR.

However almost all of what we know is in UT and the LotR appendices.

As for the link given a few posts back to MM's sarticle on Ranger's, I heartily recommned all of Essays regarding the Dunedain and Elves. They specifically seems to be his stronger points.

[ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Rumil
01-27-2003, 05:33 PM
On the subject of Ranger numbers, I wonder how many had been slain by the Nazgul?

In UT there is an account of the search of the Nazgul for the ring. On their journey to the Shire they encountered a group of Rangers at (I think)Sarn Ford. The Rangers managed to hold them off during the day but were defeated and scattered during the night.

Presumably this caused some casualties amongst the rangers and reduced the numbers available to ride south with Halbarad.

I wonder if the rangers occasionally travelled to Gondor? We know Aragorn did this under the pseudonym of Thorongil. Perhaps this would have been a good way to expose the younger Dunedain to the achievements of their native culture and perhaps avoid inbreeding if they married Gondorians then moved back North?