Legolas's Age

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

How old is Legolas and of what Kindred is he. Is Gimli young ( was he born before or after the events of the Hobbit).

[Inziladun]

Though most of the Mirkwood elves were Silvan, Legolas and his father Thranduil were Sindarin. Thranduil was a resident of Doriath in the First Age. I don't think Legolas's birthdate or age is stated anywhere.
Gimli was born in 2879 making him about 139 at the time of the War of the Ring. That's fairly young for a dwarf. Bilbo's adventure occured in 2941.

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Inziladun ]

[Lush]

Approximately 2, 931 years? I think that strikes me as somewhat accurate in regards to Legolas' age. The baby's pretty old.

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Inziladun]

2,931? Sounds about right.

[red]

You were right the first time, Inziladun, Legolas's age is never given. I don't know where that figure came from, but it isn't from anything written by JRRT.

-réd

[Arvedui]

I would think that Legolas would be older than 2,931. That number though doesn't come from any of the books. JRRT never says his age, but I'd think he's older than that. Gimli, compared to the dwarves whos age was given, is fairly young.

[silme-ranaa]

according to the Lord Of the Rings movie guide book,they stated that his age is 2931 but i heard that Tolkein never stated his age.

[Elrian]

Originally posted by Lush:
<STRONG>Approximately 2, 931 years? I think that strikes me as somewhat accurate in regards to Legolas' age. The baby's pretty old.

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]</STRONG>

That's the age given for legolas the movie character, not Legolas the book character, in the book it was never mentioned when he was born.

[Lush]

Oops. So I would have been right in a different forum. Ha ha. But even if we can't pin down Legolas' age for certain, in the books, he still appears much younger than, say, someone like Elrond.

[Elrian]

Elrond was born after Doriath was destroyed, Thrandruil lived in Doriath, Legolas could have even been born there and be older than Elrond. smilies/tongue.gif

[Telchar]

Just a thought:
Legolas Grandfather was Orophor who was the first king of the Mirkwood elves. He perished in the Battle of the Last Alliance, and his son Thranduil led the remnant elvish forces home. This means that both Orophor and his heir, Thranduil went to the same War. It was usually the costum among elves and men to leave at least one heir at home, which argues that Legolas (next in line) was left behind. This argues again that he was born in the 2nd Age and would then be more than 3000 years old.
Cheers T smilies/smile.gif

[Lush]

Wow, all these little facts and guesses are making me confused. My only opinion of Legolas' age (in the books) comes from the fact that he just seems to "act younger" than Elrond. For example, he shows his temper a few times-I just read past the point when Aragorn, Gimli & Legolas encounted the Riders of Rohan, which has Legolas and Gimli *this* close to unleashing a bloody battle. Somehow, I can't put Elrond in the same situation and picture him doing the exact same thing. Basically, it all boils down to a "feeling I have, a feeling. Perhaps you don't understand." (can anyone name that play?...Didn't think so...12 Angry Jurors-formerly 12 Angry Men. I played the racist character. Sorry for the random digression).

[Carannillion]

Perhaps, if it is so that Legolas is older than Elrond, the reason for the seemingly 'youthful rashness' of Legolas is due to a life in the woods, as a fighter/hunter, going along with his childhood friends, while Elrond has seen quite a lot. Elrond is perhaps more a political type or leader than Legolas; always striving to learn more about everything and employing it to his - and others' - use in the battle against Sauron (a heavy burden). Legolas is specialized in being a royal heir which will not take the power until his father dies (which is probably only going to happen in a war) and so he simply protects his land, turning all his efforts in this direction. He does have som knowledge of ancient lore and such, but nothing compare to Elrond.

[Lush]

Deep asessment there! If I could add to that-Elrond has children. There is no indication that Legolas does. And parenthood tends to make us wiser (at least, that's what I'm hoping for). Alas, I would take Legolas over Elrond any day.

[Elrian]

Also Elrond when choosing to be numbered among the Eldar was made an Eldarin Lord, he came from the bloodline of many Kings also. And he was Lord of his own land. Legolas being a Prince could be more carefree. I hate to say this but, Legolas may have had a family back in Mirkwood, that wasn't mentioned. Very good theories Telchar and Carannillion smilies/wink.gif

[Rose Cotton]

THis is just what I was wondering. It's kinda wierd to think how old Legolas is.Also Elf kids are never realy mentioned. I'd like to know more about them. Like from what age to what age is a elf a kid?

[Inziladun]

Like from what age to what age is a elf a kid?

Childhood is very similar for Men and Elves, at least early on. After that it's said that Men simply grow more quickly and soon leave youth behind. As for exactly when an Elf comes of age, one could only guess.

[Orald]

IIRC the childhood of an elf is normally 50 years or so, but that seems rather short compared to dwarves who aren't even immortal and don't come of age until even later on.

But maybe I am thinking of the dunedain.

[Lindolirian]

all i now is that he regards aragorn who is 88 and gimli who is 137 (i think) as children. He also says something about "the leaves have dropped 500 times and yet that seems a short while" so he is definatly over 500 and most like over 100 since 500 years seems short to him. But for his exact age JRRT never says.

[Lush]

Originally posted by Elrian:
<STRONG>I hate to say this but, Legolas may have had a family back in Mirkwood, that wasn't mentioned. smilies/wink.gif</STRONG>

Haha, we'll just have to make him stray from the righteous path then.

smilies/evil.gif

[Tar Elenion]

This is something I posted on another forum in responce to a similar question some time ago:

We can draw some conclusions from various sources. Legolas is the oldest of the Fellowship (save Gandalf). He refers to the others as children. He says that he has seen trees grow from seed to death. This indicates a great age. However he is not mentioned when Oropher and Thranduil come to Greenwood or go to the Last Alliance. So he is likely a Third Age Elf. I think he shows a certain respect or deference to the Twins so he is probably younger than they are (Elladan and Elrohir were born in TA 130). In my opinion he was probably born after Thranduil founded his stronghold in the North of Mirkwood (ca.1000 3rd Age). So sometime between 1000 and 1600 3rd Age is not unlikely (though even later is possible).

[Elrian]

Oropher founded the kingdom in Mirkwood, Thrandruil became it's King after Oropher died at the Last Alliance, since Oropher and Thrandruil were both at the Last Alliance it would make sense as someone said earlier that an heir was left behind, Legolas being Thrandruils heir is highly likely. I don't see where Legolas showed and age deference to the Brethren, a deference as the sons of a mighty Elven Lord yes.

[Tar Elenion]

I dont see where Legolas is ever mentioned in Second Age histories. While JRRT writes of Oropher and Thranduil he does not mention Legolas.
Amdir Malgalad did not leave his heir, Amroth, behind in Lorien.
When Gil-galad went to war, both Elrond (his vice-regent) and Cirdan (who ruled Lindon proper after Gil-galad's death went to war with him.

[Halbarad]

You would not want to send all of the heirs to the throne of the Mirkwood elves into battle would you? That would just be stupid.

[Elrian]

Neither was Gandalf mentioned in the second age histories or Tom Bombadil, that didn't mean they weren't alive.

[Inziladun]

Gandalf wasn't mentioned prior to the Third Age because it was only then that he and the other Istari came to Middle Earth.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally posted by Halbarad:
<STRONG>You would not want to send all of the heirs to the throne of the Mirkwood elves into battle would you? That would just be stupid.</STRONG>


Seemingly all the 'heirs' to the 'throne of the Lorien Elves' went to battle. But that must have been stupid.
Seemingly all the 'heirs' to Gil-galad's authority went to battle. Of course that was probably stupid to.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally posted by Elrian:
<STRONG>Neither was Gandalf mentioned in the second age histories or Tom Bombadil, that didn't mean they weren't alive.</STRONG>

There is more than enough evidence that both Gandalf (as Olorin of the Maiar) and Tom Bombadil (who had been around since before the Elves passed West) were 'alive' in the Second Age.
There is no evidence that Legolas was, and there was more than enough opportunity for JRRT to mention him along with his father and grandfather if he was alive in the Second Age, or to give some other hints or implications that he was around at the time.

[Halbarad]

I stand corrected. I still don't think it was the best idea though. However, just because he wasn't mentioned as going to the battle doesn't mean he wasn't alive and behind for whatever reason.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally posted by Halbarad:
<STRONG>I stand corrected. I still don't think it was the best idea though. However, just because he wasn't mentioned as going to the battle doesn't mean he wasn't alive and behind for whatever reason.</STRONG>


But also in no way supports the conclusion that Legolas was or may have been born in Doriath and was older than Elrond, or that he was or may have been born in the Second Age.
There is no evidence to support any conclusion that he may have been born in the First or Second Ages, but some circumstantial evidence that he was born in the Third Age, and likely after the Shadow first came to Dol Guldur. Legolas had not been to Lorien or Fangorn, and was not familiar with Eregion, yet his father and grandfather passed through those areas. One of the reasons given Oropher moving to northern Greenwood was that he resented the intrusions of Galadriel and Celeborn into the area of Lorien and its environs. Legolas has also never met Galadriel and Celeborn. Does it seem reasonable that he a prince of royal line and kinsman of Celeborn would not have met G&C in Doriath if born there? or later in Lindon or Eregion? or in the environs of Lorien?

[Elrian]

And there is n really no evidence to prove that he wasn't. Really only those who had an impact or did something worthy of writing about were mentioned. Notice he wasn't mentioned in the Hobbit either, unless he was born afterwards smilies/evil.gif

[Tar Elenion]

Originally posted by Elrian:
<STRONG>And there is n really no evidence to prove that he wasn't. Really only those who had an impact or did something worthy of writing about were mentioned. Notice he wasn't mentioned in the Hobbit either, unless he was born afterwards smilies/evil.gif</STRONG>

Notice that when The Hobbit was _written_, the character Legolas did not exist.

However there is evidence that Legolas was alive during the time frame The Hobbit portrays. He is older than Gimli, and Aragorn, whom he refers to as 'children', and both were alive at the time the adventures in The Hobbit took place.

As for your assertion that 'there is really no evidence that he wasn't' born in the Second or First Age, I suggest you reread my posts above and you will see the 'evidence' presented.

[Elrian]

I have read you posts. I'm not being smart but, you still really can't say that Legolas was born in the Third Age, it's not a given.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally posted by Elrian:
<STRONG>I have read you posts. I'm not being smart but, you still really can't say that Legolas was born in the Third Age, it's not a given.</STRONG>


I would suggest noting that points in my posts are qualified with 'opinion', 'probably' and 'likely', not a firm 'he was' or 'he was not'.

I stand by them as given, if you can refute them with valid facts from the corpus, please do so.

Otherwise you are more than entitled to your opinion, and I will keep mine.
smilies/smile.gif

[Elrian]

True, but the valid fact is his age isn't mentioned no matter which corpus you peruse.
Point taken.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I'm confused. In the Appendix, Thranduil is said to be a noble Sindar who travelled from Lindon to found a forest realm. How do you reconcile that with the story about Oropher? In other words, who founded the Elven Kingdom in Greenwood: Oropher or Thranduil?

To determine Legolas' age, I think it would be wise to observe his attitude. Does he behave like an Elf who spent his whole life in Mirkwood, or does he seem wise, seasoned, well versed and well travelled? If the former is true, then Legolas can't be older than the Elven Kingdom in Mirkwood.

[Elrian]

Oropher is mentioned in Unfinished Tales, according to that he was the Elven King, at the time of the Last Alliance where he was killed, the Thranduil became King.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Originally posted by Elrian:
<STRONG>Oropher is mentioned in Unfinished Tales, according to that he was the Elven King, at the time of the Last Alliance where he was killed, the Thranduil became King.</STRONG>

I know that. But I was merely underlining the fact that the Appendix says something else. In Unfinished Tales Oropher founded the Kingdom in Greenwood, while in the Appendix Thranduil is the first king of Mirkwood.

[lindil]

I would guess it most likely that
JRRT when writing the UT material forgot what he wrote in the LotR appendix.

I would tend to go with the UT material as it is far more developed .


re: legolas' age. tar Elenion , I think is spot on.
One other inference. Legolas does not ever mention having been to the gates of mordor.Which had he been in the last Alliance would have occured.
another point. I am nopt aware that Legolas is ever seen as Thranduils' eldest son [heir]. in the council of Elrond he is presented as T's son.

I have always thought it interesting how both legolas and Boromir downplay their positions [ boromir's exception being when he tries to take the ring in a fit of lust for power] I have always imagined that JRRT was trying to convey the humility asnd reluctance to blow one's own horn which was a trait in 'older times'

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[mark12_30]

Originally posted by Elrian:
I hate to say this but, Legolas may have had a family back in Mirkwood, that wasn't mentioned.

Extremely unlikely, since Legolas is reputed to have gone over-sea with Gimli as his only mentioned companion.

I think if Tolkien had had a chance to tell us about some other pair of affectionately related people-- let alone married-- being separated by the (flaming, dratted, confounded--- ooops, I mean, lovely, transcendant, pinnacle-of-elvishness) Grey Havens-- as I was saying, if Tolkien had had another chance to heartwrenchingly separate belovedly close friends/ relatives/ comrades in arms, with the sundering seas, I'm SURE he would have told us about it in Gory Detail. Witness: Elrond and Arwen; before that Elrond and Celebrian; Amroth and Nimrodel, sort of; Celeborn and Galadriel; Gandalf and Aragorn; and (****wracking sobs****) Sam and Frodo.

No, if Tolkien had had another chance to profoundly depress us for a week or so, personally I'm SURE he would have taken it. I'm betting Legolas is single.

[Elrian]

I'm betting Legolas is single
That is a good bet, but Tolkien left alot open for discussion, as you say Gimli is his only MENTIONED companion. Unlike Celebrian, or anyone else tragic in Elronds family, legolas' family may not have been tragic and considered (all Legolas fans please leave this thread now!)


Boring! smilies/tongue.gif

[Legolas]

Unfinished Tales is not authoritative when it differs from what is said in the appendices of the trilogy.

"we're told that he was among the Sindar who travelled eastward from Lindon 'before the building of the Barad-dûr'. Sauron started building the Barad-dûr in about II 1000, so Thranduil must predate this." -EoA

This is the only finished information given about Thranduil that early on in time, which means that Legolas can be at least 5624 when the Ring-bearers cross the sea. Everything else is unconclusive and subject to pure speculation.

I have always thought it interesting how both legolas and Boromir downplay their positions

It is possible that they were humble about their somewhat royal lineage, but it's equally possible that if they had egos because of their family, they were at least wise enough to set it aside in light of the great task at hand that required the unity of elves and men, dwarves and hobbits, young and old, royalty and commoners.

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Imperica]

I know that. But I was merely underlining the fact that the Appendix says something else. In Unfinished Tales Oropher founded the Kingdom in Greenwood, while in the Appendix Thranduil is the first king of Mirkwood.

There is a large difference between Greenwood and Mirkwood. Greenwood is called Mirkwood after it is influenced by Sauron's presence in Dol Guldor.

So it is no mistake, Oropher did found the Kingdom of Greenwood. And Thranduil was the first king of Mirkwood.