The Dunedain

[elvgirl]

Ok, what I never understood, was why did Aragorn, and all the Dunadan-leaders before him, not claim the throne? I mean, Aragorn knew he is the rightful King, so why is he running around in the wild for 80 years??

I understand that he couldn't go to Minas Tirith and say:
"hey Denethor, it's me Aragorn son of Arathorn (aso) I'm the king so
get your a.. off my throne".

[Taimar]

The Stewards in general, and Denethor in particular, may not have accepted the claim of any Chieftain of the Northern Dunedain. They could, with some legitimacy, claim that the rightful King of Gondor should have direct male descent from Anarion, a condition that the Northern chieftains could obviously not satisfy.

The argument from Arvedui when he claimed the throne on the death of Ondoher was that Elendil should be reckoned the first King of Gondor. Pelendur, the Steward at the time, rejected this.

I have always wondered what may have happened after the War of the Ring if Denethor had survived. I doubt that he would have surrendered the rule of Gondor to Aragorn willingly and I also doubt that he could have been legitimately compelled to do so.

[red]

Like I told ya, T, Denethor would have had a riot on his hands if he hadn't surrendered the throne. The people loved Aragorn, what with his &quot;healing hands&quot;. And many also knew he was a war hero. <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

-red

[Mister Underhill]

I agree, red, Aragorn would have ridden a swell of popular support straight onto the throne. I think Denethor realized it too -- it was the real reason for his decision to go out in a blaze of glory.

[Zoe]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I agree, red, Aragorn would have ridden a swell of popular support straight onto the
throne. I think Denethor realized it to -- it was the real reason for his decision to go
out in a blaze of glory.<hr></blockquote>

Hrm, interesting theory. I'd have to say that I quite like the idea. After all, Denethor wasn't stupid, and he knew his politics. Probably he was secretly hoping that by going out so spectacuarly, he would be remembered, perhaps even considered a martyr.

I'd say that the reason why the Dunedain never claimed the throne before was because they too knew their politics. Rocking up to Minas Tirith and demanding the throne would make them look like tyrants and unjust over-throwers of government if they won, and fools if they lost. However, after the events of the LotR, it was only reasonable that Aragorn become king.

[elvgirl]

Hmm, Zoe. Denethor a Martyr?????
I don't think so. He got so crazy because of what he saw in
the palantir. He was afraid to his bones.. that's why he
killed himself. I mean he wasn't stupid, but a good leader
would have stood up and fought for his people....
If they remember Denethor then probably as
&quot;Denethor the Chicken&quot;.....

[The Barrow-Wight]

I think that after the War it would have become common knowledge that Denethor had been tricked by Sauron while trying to beform a valiant deed - wrest with the Dark Lord. Though he might have done it partially out of vanity (looked into the palantir in the first place), he laso did it out of dire need to protect Gondor. In the end Denethor probably held a warm but sad place in the hearts of Gondorians.

[gamegie]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 77</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Dunedain

I am not sure about the warm place place in the hearts of the Gondorians, sad for sure as he had tried to steal his sons life.
Wrestling with Sauron through the Palantir was foolish, he for one was not as powerful as Aragorn and could not take the effort. Therefore this lead to his sad end.

</p>

[Arvedui]

Wow.. alot here! I don't think I buy into the "Denethor a myrter" theory, for if he wished to show his valiance, theree was plenty of battle to be had (note Theoden).
There were a fair amount of psychological warfare going on on the part of Sauron, and Sarumann though he himself was maybe unknowingly to himself a tool of Sauron.

As for Aragorn just marching into Minas Tirith and saying he was King, well, I'm sure he would have been laughed out. Instead he awaited and proved himself to be the Heir of Elendil, a very honorable way to go.

[manaratowen]

As for Aragorn just marching into Minas Tirith and saying he was King, well, I'm sure he would have been laughed out. Instead he awaited and proved himself to be the Heir of Elendil, a very honorable way to go.
i agree. people knew about isilidors heir, and to just come out and say it wouldent have worked. considering he told elrond that he didnt want the kingship. but thats just my opinion.

[Voralphion]

considering he told elrond that he didnt want the kingship.

Aragorn not wanting the kingship was only in the movie, not the book.
I believe the reason that Aragorn never claimed the kingship of Gondor was because he knew that Gondor was at war with Sauron and didn't want to weaken the strength of the city by starting off more kin-strife. He knew he had to wait until Sauron was defeated and for him to do great deeds in the war before bringing his claim to the throne.

[manaratowen]

Aragorn not wanting the kingship was only in the movie, not the book.
my bad.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

Hey, think about it: you were beaten by a great king of men over 3000 years ago, you've been fighting a war with his people for generations, and right when you think you're winning, the king's heir returns to claim the throne and really fight a war with you, when you thought there were no king anymore.

It sure also had some strategic importance. Gondor didn't need a king very badly, but if a one returns on the right moment, the enemy will probably have something to think about.

[Snowdog]

One must consider the history, especially of Gondor. The two highlights of concern are the Kin-strife, and the attempt by Arvedui to claim the throne of Gondor when the line of Kings came to an end with the death of Ondoher and his sons. It was a touchy issue, and Aragorn had to move carefully before proclaiming his Kingship in Gondor. The death of Denethor really helped this along.

[Selmo]

Imagine the reaction to a claim by Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom to be the legitimate ruler of the USA. She is a direct descendant of George III, the last King to have sovereignty over America.

Before the War of The Ring, the reaction of the Gondorians to a claim to the crown by a Cheiftain of the Northern Dunedain would have been the same.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Well, not entirely. Great Britain officially recognised the independence of the United States in 1783, so there'd be no legal precedent for a British monarch to claim any rights of sovereignty there.

A closer parallel would be for a direct descendent of James II to turn up and claim to be the rightful king of England. Although the ancestry would be right, such an action would ignore the events of 1688 that removed the Stuarts from power, and every constitutional change since then.

Aragorn's situation is very similar to that of Arvedui, but his claim is reinforced by his work on Gondor's behalf in the War of the Ring. He is well aware of the constitutional issues of claiming the kingship, which is why he refuses to do so when first he comes to Minas Tirith. He may use the banner of the Kings of Gondor in battle, where it can be a boost to morale, but when he enters the city, he does so as a private individual. In doing this he demonstrates a patience and flair for diplomacy which, combined with his other kingly qualities, would help his case immensely. Also he does everything he can to do due honour to the house of the Stewards, following up his initial tact by confirming Faramir, Denethor's rightful heir, as steward.

Although I agree with Mister Underhill that Aragorn's huge popularity would have played a part, I'm sure that the shadow of the Kin-strife lay heavily on his mind, particularly since he had already met Denethor and knew how he would view any attempt to establish a king in Gondor. Given the precarious position of the country at the time of Aragorn's return, he would probably have waited until after the war had been fought before making a bid for his inheritance, had Denethor lived and remained sane.

It's interesting to note that in deliberately breaking Denethor's mind, Sauron does much to aid the return of the king. Although his intent is to weaken the leadership of Gondor, the net result of his actions is to strengthen it immeasurably. As so often happens in Tolkien's work, "Out of evil cometh good".

[tar-ancalime]

Ok, what I never understood, was why did Aragorn, and all the Dunadan-leaders before him, not claim the throne?

There have been some compelling arguments made as to why Aragorn waited until after the War to claim the throne, but as I understand it the reason why he could claim it at all was because he was the son of Arathorn AND Gilraen, thus uniting the lines of Isildur and Anarion and making him the heir to the thrones of both Gondor and Arnor. This is why none of the other chiefs of the Dunedain could take the throne in Gondor--they were the heirs to Arnor only. Which brings up the question, why did they not try to reestablish the kingdom of Arnor before? I think that they were waiting all along for Aragorn to reunite the two kingdoms--if Frodo could see a vision of the Dunedain ending with "one with a star on his brow" (at the Barrow-downs), it stands to reason that they themselves could have known what to wait for.


OK, I've said my piece and will now wait patiently to be corrected--I'm sure there are gaping holes in my logic and in my lore. :D

[Snowdog]

Aragorn's situation is very similar to that of Arvedui, but his claim is reinforced by his work on Gondor's behalf in the War of the Ring. Yet Arvedui was married to Firiel, the daughter of Ondoher and the only surviving heir.
There have been some compelling arguments made as to why Aragorn waited until after the War to claim the throne, but as I understand it the reason why he could claim it at all was because he was the son of Arathorn AND Gilraen, thus uniting the lines of Isildur and Anarion and making him the heir to the thrones of both Gondor and Arnor. Then Aranarth could have had the same claim, being the son of Arvedui & Firiel. I'm a bit rusty, but where is it said that Gilraen was in the line of Anarion?

Good insights here! :)

[tar-ancalime]

In The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen it says that Gilraen is descended from Aranarth, who is of course a descendant of Ondoher on his mother's side. But you're right--it seems as though Aranarth himself ought to have had the same claim as Aragorn. Interesting.

[piosenniel]

Aranarth does have the same claim. Look HERE (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/aranarth.html). The little article posits that he took the title 'Chieftain' in lieu of 'King' because his father's kingdom was lost.

Also, I thought that Ondoher, in the line of Kings of Gondor, could trace his lineage back to Anarion.

[Snowdog]

In The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen it says that Gilraen is descended from Aranarth, who is of course a descendant of Ondoher on his mother's side. Right. I had forgotten this bit of heritage :o .

Of Aranarth, I guess it would have been politically impossible for him to proclaim himself rightful heir to the throne of Gondor and Arnor due to his heritage being traced to Isildur and Anarion right after the northern Dúnedain got their collective butts kicked by the Witch King and with Eärnur, the guy who was proclaimed King of Gondor after Arvedui's claim was rejected by the Steward came with a sizable army and bailed them out.

[tar-ancalime]

Yes, can you imagine? "Thanks for the help and all, really appreciate it. Oh, by the way, I'm the king, not you, so if you'd kindly get off my throne..." ;)

[galadriel'smaiden]

Does Squatter know everything?! Anywho, I personally believe that Aragorn waited till after the war of the ring to claim the throne for purely political reasons. By that time he was well respected in Rohan as well as Gondor, so the old alliances would have been strengthend. Also, the people of Gondor were without a leader and facing a new begining with a less threatening environment, leaving time that would have been spent concentrating on survival now to be focused on developing culture.

There, now all you really smart people can laugh at me. :rolleyes:

[Snowdog]

Good opinion galadriel'smaiden! It is very plausable s no laughing from me. :)

With Denethor and his attitude toward Aragorn out of the way, it was up to Faramir to challenge Aragorn's authority, being the new rtuling Steward. he didn't of course because he was a man of good character, and he surely could "feel" that Aragorn was heir of Elendil, with his renown in leading men in battle, the service of the oathbreakers, and his healing knowledge being observed and spoken about.

A 'what if..' scenario is if Boromir had lived and became ruling Steward after the war...

[The Saucepan Man]

So Sauron was Aragorn's "stooge" to bring about Denethor's demise? :D

There is a thread, either here or in N&N, speculating on what would have happened re Aragorn's claim if Denethor had survived ...

Edit: Here it is. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2406&highlight=aragorn+denethor+throne)

[Snowdog]

Cool! However, I think the what-if of Denethor surviving and the what-if of Boromir surviving leads to two different and interesting alternate scenarios.