Celeborn the little Sucker

[Manardariel]

Ok, question. Is it just me, or does anyone else think Celeborn sounds like Galadriel´s boring sidekick?? I mean, in Lórien, who gives a hell about Celeborn? It´s GALADRIEL´s mirror, GALADRIEL´s gifts, the works! And if I recall this correctly, when the Fellowship comes to Lórien, she even feels the need to introduce him, something like "this is my husband, and he is very great"(in case you never heard of him, which you probably haven´t). In Rohan, all they know is the LADY of the woods. I mean, he doesn´t even have a really important role. But the why the hell does he even exist? Why can´t Galadriel just be in Lórien all alone?

[Frodo Baggins]

Because without Celeborn Galadriel wouln't have a daughter.

[Maerbenn]

Celeborn isn't a nobody. From 'The Mirror of Galadriel': For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth... The Professor's last conception of his history was that he was a Telerin prince from Aman.

[Thingol1000]

Wasn't Celeborn from Thingol's realm? Hence Sindarin (or somesuch). (Telerin prince from Aman in ME??????)

[Dondagnirion]

Celeborn was only accounted one of Thingols folk because of relation by marriage. He was in fact a Teleri prince from the undying lands. That is specifically stated in Unfinished Tales.

Dondagnirion
"There is no spoon"

[lathspell]

Dondagnirion: in the UT are stated many things about Galadriel and Celeborn. Also about the origin of Celeborn are at least three theories written there.
And in the Silmarillion is stated that Galadriel met Celeborn there. I always thought the theory of Celeborn being a Telerin prince the least believable. It's most logical that he was either one of Thingol's people or one of Lenwe's people.

[lindil]

much Cyber-ink has been spilled over Celeborn and his seeming denseness next to the 'Lady of Light" herself.

I was always suprised that he did not travel over seas without her. I mean come on you have been married for what 6,000 years or so [ imagine trying to find gifts for the 'adamntine' or 'mithril' anniversary].

also a quick search will reveal numerous Celeborn threads, some of which will cover this subject quite thouroughly.

re: the many versions in UT of galadriel and Celeborn's History and the canonicity question you may want to try this thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001478).

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Legolas]

Celeborn was only accounted one of Thingols folk because of relation by marriage. He was in fact a Teleri prince from the undying lands. That is specifically stated in Unfinished Tales.

I wouldn't go shaking around UT as the final say in such a matter that was accounted in so many different ways.

Anyway, it is totally just you, and others who know little of Celeborn's actions during the Second and Third Ages outside of his brief interaction with the Fellowship of the Ring when they passed through his lands. He did a good bit of leading/fighting orcs and was a selfless lord. He did his part, and well, I'd say. This thread's title is silly - how could someone be derogative about said character?

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Lush]

Why can´t Galadriel just be in Lórien all alone?

Because that would be very boring.

[Mister Underhill]

Because that would be very boring.And yet I get the sense that Celeborn (the little Sucker) isn't exactly a party.

[Kalimac]

Well, we're not exactly seeing them at their most relaxed. Celeborn could be a real cut-up in daily life - brother under the skin to those goofy Elves from "The Hobbit", but with Orcs trying to trample over your borders and the end of the free world looming over you, it's hard to be entertaining. And Galadriel's abilities - and mirror - probably didn't make such a big difference in their daily (or even millennial) life together. I mean, it's hard to picture the two of them relaxing by the mirror of an evening, hoping something entertaining will come on.

[Lush]

And yet I get the sense that Celeborn (the little Sucker) isn't exactly a party.

I dunno, Underhillo. I'd take a studious, nerdy chap (which is what I assume this little Sucker was) over no chap, or better yet, over a party-hopping chap, anytime. Especially if the other option is being stuck alone for, what is it? Three Ages?

Then again, maybe Galadriel would have been better off shacking up with someone like Glorfindel anyway.

[Tar-Palantir]

shacking up

Elves don't 'shack up'. smilies/redface.gif

Here is a good thread to get you educated (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002936) about the elvish ettiquette de chambre à coucher.

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[Lush]

(trying hard to think of a clever comeback and failing)

Why do I feel like I have just been smacked across the face with a trout?

Shacking up can mean marriage too. Yes it can. Stop laughing at me! Galadriel should have just not been so hasty in choosing whom to shack up with, that's all. Glorfindel was so much more, uh...And imagine who those two golden-haired lovebirds would have looked together. Oh, cruel fate.

[littlemanpoet]

Ya know, Lush, we could always start a new 'what if' thread....

[Lush]

...And get promptly shut down by our ever-watchful mods.

[Mister Underhill]

I'd take a studious, nerdy chap (which is what I assume this little Sucker was) over no chap, or better yet, over a party-hopping chap, anytime. Studious and nerdy? Eh, maybe. I always pictured Celeborn as more the sullen, over-compensating macho type, though, given to fits of impotent rage (sending the servants scurrying with missiles of half-eaten lembas, no doubt), muttering about long years full of grievous deeds, and climbing up on his favorite hobby horse – the folly of the Dwarves. Look at how Galadriel placates him by stroking his vanity with “Celeborn the Wise” – I mean, come on, is this dude transparent or what?

And anyway, what’s up with that four to five hundred year separation in the Second Age (UT)? Were they just “taking a break”? Dark Queen or a boat to the West, I think the Lady was just looking for a way out.

[Lobelia]

The problem with the film as released in the cinema (therewas more in the DVD version) is that Celeborn was left with one line (which was Galadriel's in the novel anyway). He was the one who gave the Fellowship directions and advice about their journey, once he calmed down and apologised for his rudeness to Gimli. Personally, if I were a guy, I wouldn't want to be married to Galadriel. I mean, every time Celeborn opens his mouth, she knocks him down. She then heads for the Undying Lands alone, without so much as a backward glance. I can imagine her constantly reminding the poor sod that she had turned down Feanor... "I sometimes wonder why, Celeborn, really I do..."

[Diamond18]

I'm sorry to start mixing threads, but it was so tempting...after reading these speculations on Celeborn's temperament, I thought of the Names (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002964) thread, and this is what it said for Celeborn:

Your first name of Celeborn makes you a quick thinker, both philosophical and creative. You appreciate music, art, and drama and, if given training, could excel in those fields. Self-consciousness may prevent you from feeling at ease in positions of impromptu expression. Desiring to be free from detail and monotony, you find it difficult to finish what you start if it does not hold your interest. You enjoy reading and the beauties of nature, experiencing peace and relaxation in outdoor activities. A very individual, independent person, you live within your own thoughts. With acquaintances and strangers, you tend to be reticent and reserved. Your friends never know whether they will find you friendly and charming or lost in introspection. When unhappy or disappointed, you can be moody and temperamental, feeling misunderstood and unappreciated. You will go out of your way to help others, and find it difficult to say "no" and mean it. Others impose on your generosity at times. You enjoy sweets and starchy foods. Over-indulgence could cause a weak back, skin conditions or arthritis later in life. The heart and lungs could also be affected at stressful times.

Just in case, I want to make it clear that I'm laughing right now. This description coupled with Mr. Underhill's above post paints a rather funny picture of Lord Celeborn.

I also imagine he's that kind of person who goes around constantly correcting people who mispronounce his name.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Has no-one thought of congratulating Celeborn for marrying such a babe? Kudos to you Lord!

[Inderjit Sanghera]

One thing I've never understood is why Galadriel chose Celeborn over Celebrimbor.....

Celeborn is wise on his own ground, such as his giving the boats to Aragorn.

[Manardariel]

You know I always pictured Celeborn as an elven "Percy" from Harry Potter. (am I being bad? Soooo sorry) You know, the kind of person who always sweats the small stuff, who´s very dry and has a low sense of humor. Just my idea though. I have wierd ideas though, so don´t take me seriously...

I also don´t get why she didn´t go for Celebrimbor. Maybe because she hated Feanor so much she didn´t want to end up with one of his grandsons. I thought their story was very touching though, if you think about it.

[Thingol1000]

"One thing I've never understood is why Galadriel chose Celeborn over Celebrimbor...."

Wouldn't that be a bit insestuous?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Not as incestous as her choosing Celebron over Celebrimbor.

Her father was Feanor's half-brother, and Celebrimbor was Feanor's grand-son. That wasn't a first cousin relationship.

Whereas Celeborn, in on version , was the grand-son of Olwe, and Galdriel was the grand-daughter of Olwe, thus making them first cousins.

Also, if you take the Celeborn is a grand-son of Elmo, brother of Olwe, that would too be incestous, on about the same level as Celebrimbor and Galadriel.

I thought their story was very touching though, if you think about it.
posted by Manardariel


I agree, I think it wold make a good Fanfic.

[ February 20, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Thingol1000]

"Whereas Celeborn, in on version , was the grand-son of Olwe, and Galdriel was the grand-daughter of Olwe, thus making them first cousins."

Earlier in this thread it was stated that Celeborn was a prince among the teleri. Is that true?

[Rumil]

Galadriel and Celeborn-

I think he charmed her into bed with his dry sense of humour-

'do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that were once needful for the wise to know'

now who was Celeorn's old wife? (at least 7000 years old)

[greyhavener]

Celeborn has enough personal confidence to be Mrs. Galadriel-Lady-of-the-Wood. He's had his ages of influence and now, like an enlightened third age elf he's willing to let Galadriel have the fame. He has her ear. He'll pitch in with wisdom and encouragement when needed. Power, influence, and leadership are not always overt. He's welcome in my treehouse.

[morchaint]

Tolkien didn't intend for Celeborn to be that, well, dull. In his beginning drafts, he actually gave Celeborn the majority of the speaking parts. But, as Tolkien developed Galadriel's character more, he kind of shortened Celeborn's parts. You can actually see that in FotR, Celeborn has many more lines in the beginning than in the end of their meeting with the Fellowship. It also says from the same source, that Tolkien intended the mirror to be Celeborn's, and that he gave it to Galadriel.

He was a prince either way (Silm or UT), and he remained related to Thingol either way. And between Galadriel-Celeborn and Galadriel-Celebrimbor, there is no major difference, Galadriel is the second cousin to both Celeborn and Celebrimbor.

In UT, it mentions that FotR seems to be implying that Celeborn and Galadriel came from the west together. In this version, Galadriel is innocent of the Kinslaying at Aqualondë.

And, if you think about it, Galadriel and Celeborn complement each other. Galadriel caring more of the, well, I'll just say 'mental state' of the Galadhrim, and Celeborn caring of the 'well-being' of the Galdhrim. So, they foil (complement) each other, making the perfect rulers.

Well, I'm not sure if Celeborn is all that boring...I mean, why would Galadriel, Nerwen (man-maiden), Artanis (noble-lady/maiden), a fiery spirit, fall for someone dull? Besides..Celeborn gave her the name Galadriel.