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gamegie
10-26-2000, 06:12 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 98</TD><TD><img src=http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1285585&a=9527321&p=31346468 WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
This question might seem stupid to some of you, but I have always had a doubt about the family/blood ties of the three leading elves in the LOTR. On top of which who are the true parents of Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir.

Tolkien mentions Galadriel to be the mother doesn't he? I might be wrong. But so what of Celeborn, isn't he a little jealous?

Could you please enlighten me. thanks.

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

Mithadan
10-26-2000, 07:10 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 274</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond

Galadriel is the grandmother. Her daughter, with Celeborn, was Celebrian, Elrond's wife. Elrond and Celebrian's kids are Arwen, Elrohir and Elladan. Celebrian departed to the West after being captured by orcs during a trip to Lorien. She was rescued by Elladan and Elrohir.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

burrahobbit
10-26-2000, 12:43 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 504</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond

Elrond and Galadriel are cousins of some sort. I am not very good at figuring distance among relations, so someone else will have to say. Celeborn is of no relation, being a Sinda.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

Voronwe
10-26-2000, 01:26 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond

Elrond was the great-grandson of Turgon, who was Galadriel's first cousin. Quite a distant relationship. I'm not sure what level of cousinship this was.

Elrond may also have been very distantly related to Celeborn, since Elrond was Thingol's great-grandson, and Celeborn is mentioned (at least in some accounts) as being a relative of Thingol's.



-Voronw
"voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star."</p>

Mithadan
10-26-2000, 01:36 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
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Re: Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond

Celeborn's parentage was left unsettled. In one version, he is the grandson of Olwe of Alqualonde and they meet in Valinor before the rebellion of the Noldor (CT describes this version as possibly being the last writing of JRRT on Middle Earth, but it conflicts with express statements in LoTR). Another version has Celeborn as the son of Elmo, brother of Elwe (Thingol) meeting Galadriel in Doriath.

Elmo, by the way, is the cousin of Ernie, Big Bird and the Cookie Monster who come not into these tales. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

gamegie
10-26-2000, 11:43 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 102</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond

Ok, thanks guys, now I am completly lost.

So Galadriel is both grand-parent and in-law of Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir. Nowadays such family links are not really well looked upon are they? They give in-bred children!!
But that obviously does not go for elfes.......

As for Elmo and big bird, thanks Mithadan, that information I had not <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

</p>

Mithadan
10-27-2000, 05:11 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
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Re: Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond

Now I am lost. Why is Galadriel the in-law of Arwen, et al.?

BTW, Elmo has another cousin, Grover, who is appearing as Deagol in the LoTR Movie (I believe this is what is commonly referred to as &quot;beating a dead horse&quot; but I couldn't resist).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

gamegie
10-28-2000, 05:37 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond

Well, Voronwe said that Galadriel and Elrond are first cousins.
Galadriel is not the in-law of Arwen but of Elrond, as well as first cousin.............. OK let us drop this theme, I am lost.......... <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

Mithadan
10-28-2000, 05:47 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
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Re: Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond

OK. I understand. Galadriel's father was Finarfin, brother of Fingolfin. From Fingolfin to Elrond, the line runs as follows: Fingolfin &gt; Turgon &gt; Idril &gt; Earendil &gt; Elrond. If I understand the rules of descent properly, Elrond is Galadriel's first cousin, four times removed.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

red
10-28-2000, 01:40 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 92</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond

Methinks it is three times removed, Mithadan. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

-red

"I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will."</p>

Mithadan
10-29-2000, 09:27 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
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Re: Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond

Quite right, Red.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Glorfindel
03-30-2001, 07:31 PM
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Re: Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond

Can someone explain what removed means in the family tree?
I've never caught on to it becuase, well, its never been explained to me.

</p>

the youngest Rose
04-20-2001, 09:51 AM
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Re: Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond

I could of course be very wrong but i believe it has something to do with a divorce or maybe even a death. I like I said, I'm no historian, but my quess is as good as yours.

</p>

lindil
12-27-2002, 05:25 PM
If it is used properly in this context, then a 'remove'happens with each generation away from say an aunt or uncle.

So Silmarien's descendants were all 1st cousins of the king/queen of Numenor but at increasing generations of 'removal'.

perhaps someone can answer this definitevly, as I thought as a generation passed down the children of first cousins became second cousins.

Manwe Sulimo
12-27-2002, 06:26 PM
I was talking about this with my mother a few days ago (Christmas get-together and all) and she said that the children of first cousins were first cousins once removed. I'm not gonna try to fit this in with that crazy mess from two years ago (why'd you get this, lindil? smilies/smile.gif), so you're going to have to figure it out yourself....

lindil
12-27-2002, 06:53 PM
It is funny, if I had known it was not active I would have let the sleeping dog lay, but I came across it as someone was reading it and I was looking at the "who's online". They wer reading this so I clicked on, supreised that 4 'galadriel type topics could be active in one day and it turns out someone was just perusing back on page 23 or somesuch.

If we know that the descendants of first cousins stay first cousins [adding the to removed column with each succeding generation, then what is a second or third cousin? I suppose a careful reading of the hobbit geneologies would reveal it.
OK what is a second cousin then?

Gwaihir the Windlord
12-27-2002, 08:27 PM
Hmmm... well I can't think that it'd be that significant. I mean can you imagine inbred Elves? As long as they weren't siblings, or something else very close, it shouldn't really matter. And they weren't that close.

Er I think the children of cousins are second cousins twice removed. I've got some of them.

Frodo Baggins
12-31-2002, 08:25 PM
Well....

Elrond is related to both Galadriel and Celeborn. Elrond is Thingol's great-great- grandson (he is Luthien's great-grandson) and I do know that Thingol was Celeborns great-uncle. Galadriel and Elrons are cousins, first, second, third I can't remember. Not to mentio that Galadriel and Celeborn were related to each other. Elrond is related to Celeborn and Galadriel and thus is Also related to his wife Celebrian. *sigh* and I thought only hobbits married relatives......

doug*platypus
01-01-2003, 04:52 AM
I guess this thread isn't as simple as it looked. I thought it would have been closed down by now, but apparently some aspersions are being cast on Elves and what exactly happens at their family get-togethers.
Not to mentio that Galadriel and Celeborn were related to each other.
Hate to be the first one to bring this up (in case I'm wrong!), but WHAT?!

Oh... okay, before anyone replies I see where this is one possible history of Galadriel and Celeborn. Anyone know if it's the final, definitive version?

[ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: doug*platypus ]

Ringannunwen
01-25-2003, 11:10 PM
galadriel has never been the parent of my favourite characters (elladan & elrohir) and arwen! celeborn and galadriel are related yes, and so is elrond and galadriel. maybe thats why they like each other so much.

smilies/rolleyes.gif

Legolas
01-26-2003, 12:42 AM
Yes, Galadriel and Celeborn were(are) related.

Celeborn is Elmo's grandson; Galadriel is Olwe's granddaughter. Elmo and Olwe were brothers.

Gorwingel
01-26-2003, 03:15 AM
Well at least its not like they are brother and sister, I was kind of worried for a moment there, that would make them cousins, like 3rd cousins.

lindil
01-26-2003, 04:57 AM
2nd cousins and just allowable.

Silmarien
01-28-2003, 11:43 PM
Your second cousins are your parents cousins children.

As first cousin are your parents siblings children

Removed refers to the generation gap, once removed one step up or down ect.(though with Elves this is naturally hard to determine).

Lyra Greenleaf
01-29-2003, 01:51 PM
whoever was worried about inbred elves, dont worry! it specifically says in Sil that elves did NOT fall in love with/ marry their first cousins never mind anything closer (yuck)

maeglin fell in love with Idril, his first cousin, and this was a sign that he was "strange and crooked", it was a part of the doom of the Noldor.

on the other hand you have niniel and turin who got married, who were brother and sister! but they were human and you know how odd humans are!