The Greatest of the Eldar

[obloquy]

This thread pops up every couple of minutes on Tolkien boards, and usually ends up several hundred thousand posts long, each poster declaring one elf (out of a pretty consistent pool of about six or seven elves) to be the most groovy.

Usually one or two posters have actually read some Tolkien, and will cite Unfinished Tales: Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.

This portion of the UT material happens to have come from another essay, published in HoMe XII - The Peoples of Middle-earth, called The Shibboleth of Feanor. In that essay, the following is also stated: These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.

In an Author's Note connected to this sentence, Tolkien states: Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

So there you have it. The greatest of all the Eldar was Luthien Tinuviel. Now this question never has to be asked again!

[Daniel Telcontar]

That depends in what matter. There are certainly in some matters where others could be considered greater. And why not let people have their personal favorites, neither Feänor, Luthien or Galadriel are the elves I consider the greatest.

[burrahobbit]

Well, I happen to think that Thranduil's butler is the greatest elf of all time. I am wrong. Tolkien, though, he probably knew what he was talking about. Also, favorite is not the same as greatest.

[obloquy]

Tolkien doesn't say Luthien is the greatest in some respects, he says she is the greatest of the Eldar. No conditions. It is a concrete answer to a question that many people ask, taken directly from Tolkien's writings.

People are certainly allowed to have their favorites. That wasn't the question I was addressing.

[Daniel Telcontar]

But how do you define greatest? Galadriel was wise, Feanor a craftsman and Luthien beautiful. Does that mean that they were better elves than others? Tolkien gave us his opinion of who he thought was the greatest, but can you just take these lines and make them matter for all the elves? What about Ingwë, the High King of every elf? Shouldn't he be considered the greatest Eldar?

[obloquy]

No, because Tolkien says Luthien was the greatest.

[Daniel Telcontar]

I don't believe you can say that an elf is the greatest because of one quote. Luthien got a silmaril from Morgoth, and that was it. Although it was a great deed, what about elves like Fingolfin, who crossed Helcaraxe and had a duel against Morgoth? Or Glorfindel, who killed a balrog and whom even the nazgûl feared? I think it is wrong to rely so much on a single quote, and that you can't decide who is the greatest elf, because it cannot be measured.

[obloquy]

Yes, it actually can be measured. Tolkien measured it, and Luthien was the greatest. It's quite unambiguous, and it doesn't leave any room for your argument.

[Daniel Telcontar]

If he measured it, by what standards? Do you believe Luthien to be the most beautiful being ever to exist, like many others? Because she is not. Tolkien says that Dior was seen as the most beautiful of all the world's children. But that is only one quote. Does it count? I don't think Tolkien measured the different elves, because how could it be done? I think Tolkien meant that she should be counted among those who had done a great deed, like many others.

[obloquy]

Tolkien doesn't say she's the greatest because she's the most beautiful, or because of her deeds. He gives no reason. He simply says she is the greatest of all the Eldar. I'll quote it one more time for you: Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

I hope you realize that you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with Tolkien himself.

[burrahobbit]

I've drawn a graph to illustrate exactly why Luthien is the greatest, instead of Feanor or Galadriel or whoever.

http://gdi.keenspace.com/graph.png

Black = wisdom, green = making stuff ability, pink = hottness

As you can see in the above, when compared to the average elf both Galadriel and Feanor are generally much above average, but when compared with Luthien's hottness index they just don't compare. I mean, seriously, just look at it. Her hottness index is more than what you would get if you added up Feanor's or Galadriel's, plus her wisdom and ability to make stuff indices are both nothing to scoff at. And look at how wide the thing is, man.

I hope that this clears up any confusion.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

Maybe. But J.R.R. Tolkien has not written the Silmarillion, he has only made some notes and quick references. His son has put the book together. I cannot accept the fact that Luthien is the greatest of the Eldar, without a valid argument, and certainly not when we can't be sure that J.R.R. Tolkien himself meant so. There are other disagrements, e.g. the one about the number of balrogs. Tolkien writes one place legions of Balrogs, thousands of them, and other places that there are only seven.
Without clearer guidance, definition questions such as this must be decided by the reader himself, since he has so little evidence to support the different theories.

[obloquy]

Yeah, sometimes Tolkien conflicts with himself, but he doesn't in this case. Nowhere else is there a conclusive statement as to which elf was greater than all others. You don't think he meant what he wrote? I didn't quote Christopher Tolkien, I quoted J.R.R. Tolkien.

Besides, just look at the graph.

[Daniel Telcontar]

I must admit, the graph is difficult to fight against. But how do you know that it was J.R.R. Tolken how wrote that part, and not his son?

[obloquy]

Because it's not in the Silmarillion. It's in an essay in volume XII of The History of Middle-earth. There is no question as to who wrote the essay.

[Daniel Telcontar]

That is true, I didn't know. But still, it only appears to be a note, which he wrote hastily, without giving much consideration or writing heavy arguments why she is the greatest. To me, there does not seem to be a standard with which you can measure the elves. Feanor: Three silmarils, giving 3000 points. Galadriel: nine gifts to the fellowship, 450 points. Gil-galad, dying in war, -200 points. Get the idea?

[obloquy]

It doesn't say he wrote it hastily. It's not just a note jotted in the margins like the AAm Balrog numbers thing. You're right, there is no measuring stick we can lean elves up against to determine their greatness (besides burrahobbit's graph, which I hope is merely the first of a series). But we can trust Tolkien when he says, unequivocally and without contradiction, that Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Our discussion has come to a dead end, where it is up to each of us, what we wishes to believe. I have my elves as the greatest ones, you have yours. But thanks for the discussion, I enjoyed it, and you had some good arguments. Hopefully we will meet in another. smilies/wink.gif

[*Varda*]

Tolkien said Luthien was the greatest. Since Tolkien actually wrote the books, i would give his opinion more importance.

Greatest and Favourite are not the same thing. Favourite is a matter of personal opinion.

[Daniel Telcontar]

You are right, but I still believe it is up the every reader to decide who he/she believes is the greatest of the elves, be that in spirit, by deeds or other standards.

[burrahobbit]

It is up to every reader to decide whether or not Frodo dies in the first chapter.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Do I feel a bit of hostility from you, Burrahobbit?

[burrahobbit]

No. If your logic is sound it will remain sound when taken to an extreme. I took your logic to an extreme. It is not sound.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Where did you pick up that philosophy?

[burrahobbit]

If I am wrong, tell me how.

[Daniel Telcontar]

It is not logic, that everyone should make up their own opinion, it is a statement. So you are wrong, when taking it to the extreme, since it is not a logic.

[burrahobbit]

Your logic, such as it is, is that it is up to the reader to decide the exact content of a given book. In this particular case you are applying it to the question of the greatest elf. You have come up with your own conclusions, which is generally fine, but in this case it goes against the explicitly stated opinion of the creator. I took your logic and used it to determine that it is up to me to determine if Frodo died in the first chapter. This, of course, is a ridiculous proposition. It is perfectly obvious that he lived throughout the entirety of the book, just as it is now perfectly obvious that Luthien was the greatest Elda.

[Daniel Telcontar]

No, Logic is to make a conclusion of something obvious. But I make a statement, which is when someone says what they think/believe. I believe that everyone should decide for themselves, which not everyone agrees with. You cannot use the rules for logic on this, since I have not made a logic conclusion.
I think it is logic that Luthien is the greatest elf. But when it also states, that Galadriel and Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar, then it is not logic. It is an opinion. Like I have my opinion.

[Maédhros]

I personally don't think that Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar. Her parents were an elf and a maia, in that she had an unfair advantage over other elves. Her deeds were great, but she didn't create anything. I can say that in somethings she was the best, but in others not.

[Daniel Telcontar]

That is what I believe as well. She did a great deed, when she recovered one of the Silmarils, but that was it. And in other things she were surpassed. Glad that someone agrees with me. smilies/wink.gif

[burrahobbit]

But when it also states, that Galadriel and Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar

Ah, but it doesn't say that, it says that they were the greatest of the Noldor. Luthien is not Noldorin, but Telerin. The Eldar, if you will remember, include the members of the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri. Of those three groups, Luthien was the greatest.

[burrahobbit]

I personally don't think that Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar.

I wonder who has the opinion with more weight. Is it JRR Tolkien or is it Maédhros or is it Daniel Telcontar. Hmm, I shall be awake all night trying to decide.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Look in Obloquy's post. It says
These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor,
Unless Obloquy is lying, Tolkien can't make up his mind.

Also, I am not asking you to use my opinion as a guide. I am asking you, if you are able to, to make your own opinion. If you have the same as one of Tolkien's, then that is fine. But don't discriminate the rest of us for having ours.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Daniel Telcontar ]

[burrahobbit]

Tolkien does not say that Feanor and Galadriel were each the total best Noldo ever. It might be best to paraphrase it to something such as "In a list of the top 10 Noldor, Galadriel and Feanor would be 1 and 2, though perhaps not in that order." Not to mention the fact the Luthien never went to Valinor.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[obloquy]

I really fail to see where the difficulty is. Luthien is explicitly, unambiguously, unequivocally, and unconditionally stated to be 'greatest of all Eldar.' How is that difficult to understand?

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[The Barrow-Wight]

From dictionary.com

great Pronunciation Key (grt)
adj. great·er, great·est
Very large in size.

So she was the largest of the Eldar? I always imagined her as petite. smilies/wink.gif

[Maédhros]

I wonder who has the opinion with more weight. Is it JRR Tolkien or is it Maédhros or is it Daniel Telcontar. Hmm, I shall be awake all night trying to decide.
Well, she was a great eldar, but certainly not the greatest craftmen of the elves. Is she?
I really fail to see where the difficulty is. Luthien is explicitly, unambiguously, unequivocally, and unconditionally stated to be 'greatest of all Eldar.' How is that difficult to understand?
She's the greatest in what?

[obloquy]

She wasn't the greatest in something. She was the greatest, period.

[The Barrow-Wight]

And further more.. blah, blah, blah....

This conversation is going in great circles. The greatest circles I've seen recently. Ain't that great?

Let's stop the bickering and define greatness so we can see what Tolkien meant by the Luthien statement quoted by obloquy.

[obloquy]

I expect Tolkien probably meant "greatest" in the same sense that Melkor was greatest. Having the most potent spirit.

[Daniel Telcontar]

BW is right, the discussion is going in circles. I think we should accept each other's opinion, 'cause we will never convince each other anyway.

[Lush]

Ya know, even the bickering about Balrog wings, or lack thereof, was more entertaining than this.
I think of it this way: Tolkien created a complex, detailed world, with many complex, detailed characters. Different people, with different definitions of greatness may read about these characters, and develop their own opinions and ideas regarding each and every one that are based on their own individual values. If one feels very strongly that Finrod Felagund, to make an example of one of my own favorite Elves, is the greatest of the Eldar because of his self-sacrifice, one may very well bristle a statement akin to: "Tolkien says that's not the case, so shut up."
I think that an author's ownership of his work, once that work is made public, lessens to some degree, therefore we should be allowed to have our own opinions of his characters, while applying to them our own unique definition of greatness, and without being told that our thoughts are irrelevant. Furthermore, If Tolkien's definition of greatness is just what obloquy says it is, then it somewhat different from mine.
However, I thinks it's cool that a writer who's female characters were mostly in the background would state that Lúthien Tinúviel is the greatest of the Eldar. And I don't think it's because she was the most beautiful either, though beauty seems to have been of great importance to Mr. Tolkien in regards to his female characters.
Oh, and burrahobbit, I think that Galadriel was hotter than you give her credit for. Remember how Fëanor went wild for that hair of hers? smilies/wink.gif

So she was the largest of the Eldar? I always imagined her as petite.

Hey now, Mr. Barrow-Wight, tall women can be pretty too. smilies/wink.gif

[burrahobbit]

You misunderstand the graph, Lush. A regular Elf, by the standards of Men, is totally super hot. Galadriel is more than three times as hot as a regular Elf. I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty hot to me.

[Lush]

Oh, Ok. Reading graphs was never a skill of mine anyway, as is evident by my SAT scores. And while we're on the subject of hotness, how come is it that someone said that Dior was the most beautiful of all the creatures on Earth? Didn't it say specifically say in the Sil that that honor belonged to his mum?

[Daniel Telcontar]

One quote says that when he took the Nauglamir around his neck, he was the fairest of the world's children, a child of both elves, humans and maiar. Luthien was maybe more beautiful, I just used this quote as an argument that you can't rely to much on a single quote.

[burrahobbit]

One quote says that when he took the Nauglamir around his neck

But not before. Add to that the fact that the fall of Doriath was largely written by Christopher Tolkien.

[Belin]

Besides, when Luthien wore it, she was so beautiful that she died. You can't beat that...

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ June 29, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

[the phantom]

Actually, Dior was only the fairest because Luthien was no longer alive. He's declared the fairest when he recieves the Nauglmir (spelled correct?) set with the Silmaril, and the reason he gets it is because Luthien is dead (tough to be the hottest when you're rotting in the ground). I remember text saying something along the lines of "Dior was now the most fair.." the emphasis is on now, meaning he was only the fairest because Luthien was dead at this time. So no, this isn't a textual contradiction. Not that it really matters. I think Luthien was the greatest, but I don't think it's fair to put her in the same boat as the Eldar because she was part angelic being. I would vote for Feanor. That dude rules!

[O'Boile]

obloquy
look at your very first post. You give conflicting quotes, one saying Galadriel and Feanor are the greates, and one saying Luthien. I don't see how you can say there is not conflict.

[Legolas]

O'Boile

The quotes say Galadriel and Feanor are the greatest of the Noldorin elves and Luthien is the greatest of all elven kindreds.

[burrahobbit]

Galadriel and Feanor are the greatest of the Noldor. Luthien isn't a Noldo.

[Galorme]

There are many elves who are referred to as 'great', there are others who are referred to as mighty (Glorfinel/fingolfin) and skilled (Daeron/Beleg). I expect that when writing the scattered works of the Sil Tolkein showed favour to the charactor he was currently writing about.

I think that when editing Christopher Tolkein was very careful to never attribute the same title ("Greatest Elf") to two elves, and the fact that Galadriel was the greatest Noldo and Luthien the Greatest of the Eldar was more a by-product of Christopher's editing, probably because of the association of Tuniviel with his mother.

Saying this i do personelly feel that Lútien is the greatest Elf with the exception of the later Half-Elven.

[obloquy]

The texts in HoMe are not edited for consistency. The quote I gave was from a piece of text that was speaking of Galadriel and Feanor, not Luthien.

[Elendur]

I think we should take hybrids into account here. It is not fair that pure elves would be measured against elves who are half Maia. I accept that Luthien is the greatest of all the Eldar. For you people saying she only ever did one great thing, that is not a good argument. She never went out looking to do heroic things. She did it for her love of Beren. It is the same with Ingwe. He hasn't really done anything heroic, yet he is revered by all elves. That is because he is great. What you do doesn't make you great, you just are and that will show when you are put in the position to do great things. I have always like Luthien. She bested Melkor by herself and did it all for love.

But I come back to my original point. Pure elves shouldn't be measured against hybrids like Luthien. Yet she is considered one of the Eldar. Its unfair. smilies/smile.gif

I have always like Glorfindel and Fingolfin best.

[burrahobbit]

Life's not fair, babe. You can't go around excluding people that have natural advantages. It isn't like she took steroids or something. She was born great and she managed to be an Eldar at the same time.

[Elrian]

Sounds like his definition of greatness was meant in an all around way. Galadriel was great in her own way, yeah she made a phial, took over the rule of the Galadhrim and some other great or not so extremely great deeds. Feanor created some Silmarils, that a Valar coveted. When his father was killed and his gems stolen he went absolutely ballistic and goes on a quest to recover his own, whereby he kills his own kind to gain ships, then deserts his own followers by taking the ships then burning them so the rest of the Noldor cannot follow the quest that they swore some oath for. Luthien who is just some half Telerin Elf or Sindar, half Maia, never been to Valinor, hasn't seen the light of the two Trees, goes on a quest for love to gain the Silmaril from Morgoth, sings him simple so they can recover the stone. Then when her guy dies she follows him and sings yet another Valar into submission and gains life albiet a mortal one for herself and her guy. So why was this Luthien so great, hmmm with the power in her song she could do what those other two could never do,heck she could get what ever she wanted from the Valar all she had to do was sing! She did what she did for love, not power, or material gain, or revenge. She was also prettier and more well loved by her people, she didn't desire power like the other two. Also by Tolkien himself saying that she was the greatest of the Eldar should be proof enough.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

circles within circles...to me, also, Luthien is probably the "greatest" of the Eldar in that she wielded the most power, was at the least one of the bravest, and was most beloved of her people...to be corny, the power of love is the greatest power of all
my favourite, however, is Finrod Felagund

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Some people might be hovering the Downs looking for a thread on why Tolkien decided that Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar.
Y'know, looking for Luthien discussion.
Maybe those poor souls skipped over this popularity vote unknowingly.

Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar. Discussion over.

But, digress if you will....

[Manwe Sulimo]

If you want to go for the greatest *suggested* Eldar, you can't go wrong with the Three Kings of the Three Kindreds, Ingwë, Elwë, and Finwë. You could probably add Olwë in there, too. After all, they were the kings of the Kindreds, were the first to see the Light of Telperion and Laurelin, and highest in the favour of Manwë. To go even further, Ingwë was the highest, for The smallest host and the first to set forth was led by Ingwë, the most high lord of all the Elvish race. He entered ito Valinor and sits at the feet of the Powers, and all Elves revere his name....The Vanyar were his people; they are the Fair Elves, the beloved of Manwë and Varda, and few among Men have spoken with them." Silmarrilion pp.52-53.
If you are going by the opinion of the Lord of the Valar or the Eldar themselves, it's Ingwë.

[Maédhros]

Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar. Discussion over.
Ah, but the question is the greatest in what?
Was she the greatest craftmen of the Eldar? I think not.
If you are going by the opinion of the Lord of the Valar or the Eldar themselves, it's Ingwë.
Oh, please. The Valar in their history had made many mistakes, and i wouldn´t take the choice of Ingwë into consideration for the greatest. After all, were was he in the war of Wrath. He was in Valinor under the protection of the Valar, instead of in ME were his people were fighting.

[Manwe Sulimo]

But his *son*, Ingwiel, led the Host of Valinor along with Eönwë.

[Lush]

Yes, but just because your son did something brave and cool, doesn't mean that you should be included under that umbrella of courage and coolness. Basically, you can't be great by association.

[Manwe Sulimo]

I never meant it that way, but, oh well. Take it as you will.

[obloquy]

Ah, but the question is the greatest in what?

Wrong. This is not the question. Many people think it is, which is why it has been so difficult for them to wrap their brain around Tolkien's very simple statement. Tolkien does not put conditions or limitations on Luthien's greatness. The issue of her greatness isn't bound up in her deeds or her specific "powers," either. It was just damn good genetics.

Yes, she had an unfair advantage, nobody is denying that. Does that change her nature as an Elda? Nope. Does that change Tolkien's statement? No.

Was she the greatest craftmen of the Eldar? I think not.

This is speculation. We don't have any account of her applying herself to crafts.

Good post, Elrian. I like this part:
She did what she did for love, not power, or material gain, or revenge.

[Legolas]

"After all, were was he in the war of Wrath. He was in Valinor under the protection of the Valar, instead of in ME were his people were fighting."

Perhaps he was being intelligent by staying in Valinor. He knew that's where he was supposed to be, and if the other elves weren't intelligent enough to complete the trip, then they could fend for themselves. They should have followed him and stayed on the journey.

Though I still don't think he was the greatest...I think it's unquestionable. Luthien was. If you disagree, it's possible that you're illiterate.

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Morgoth Bauglir]

i agree with daniel telcontar on all that was said.

[obloquy]

I can see that you're going to fit in well here, Morgoth Bauglir.

[Elrian]

A friend of his I assume as it is your first post and first posts are usually in the Novices and Newcomers forum smilies/rolleyes.gif I agree with so and so in any post in any forum with nothing more to add is a wasted post or Spam as it is called.

The High Kings did nothing more than go to Valinor as Ambassadors for their people, and lead their people to an island to be taken to the West. They did no mighty deeds. Feanors Silmarils were hallowed by Varda, or they would not have been as great as they were. Feanor would never classify as greatest all around Elf.

[Lush]

Obloquy & Elrian, you're not related by any chance, are you? smilies/biggrin.gif

As for the issue of Fëanor, for all his talents and potency of spirit, his screw-ups outweigh all that in my opinion. He lacked kindness, and Tolstoy has convinced me long ago that there can be no greatness where kindness is missing.

[Galorme]

People talk about Lúthien not making anything? What about her magic cloak that she wove from her own hair? It even put Morgoth to sleep (not her singing as many think) and stagered Sauron when he was in full charge, as well as rendering her nearly invisable.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

i forgot my old pass but ive been here for a while reding what you say...

am i considered a noob because i said i agree?and, btw, i dont even know him i just thought his points were good, and i kinda disagree with obloqu (sp heh)

just because i havent posted alot doesnt mean im a novice, i know quite a bit about tolkin

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Morgoth Bauglir ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

legalos: I may have misunderstood, but you say that Ingwë was intelligent enough to stay in Valinor, and if the others didn't complete the journey it was because they were stupid. But don't you realise, that the journey he didn't do was the War of the Wrath, where his people the Vanyar fought along with the remaing Noldorne, or is there some other explanation?

And I do not know Morgoth Bauglir, but I don't understand why you are so hostile against people who don't rely totally on one quote, but who make up their own mind. That whole Dior discussion was because I said he was the fairest, based on one quote. I don't think he was, but it proves how one quote can be understood differently.

Lastly, I think Morgoth Bauglir did well in giving his support. I was glad to know that someone understood me, and agreed, thus proving that I am making some sense.

[Maédhros]

Wrong. This is not the question. Many people think it is, which is why it has been so difficult for them to wrap their brain around Tolkien's very simple statement. Tolkien does not put conditions or limitations on Luthien's greatness.
No. You can´t be the best in everything. While she might be the greatest in certain things, she certainly isn´t the best artisan of the Eldar. I would give that to Feanor, who after all made the Silmarils.
In Eregion the craftsmen of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the People of the Jewel-smiths, surpassed in cunning all that have ever wrought, save only Fëanor himself; and indeed greatest in skill among them was Celebrimbor, son of Curufin, who was estranged from his father and remained in Nargothrond when Celegorm and Curufin were driven forth, as is told in the Quenta Silmarillion.
I don´t see any statement made by JRRT that supports that Luthien was better at crafts than Feanor. Neither in the creation of words.
We don't have any account of her applying herself to crafts.
So wouldn´t JRRT mention if she made something as great as the silmarils.
Feanors Silmarils were hallowed by Varda, or they would not have been as great as they were.
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda. Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Ilúvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils Fëanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor, which lives in them yet, though the Trees have long withered and shine no more. Therefore even in the darkness of the deepest treasury the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it and gaveit back in hues more marvellous than before.
All who dwelt in Aman were filled with wonder and delight at the work of Fëanor. And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them
Fëanor´s silmarils were hallowed by Varda because she was filled with wonder by the works of Fëanor. Her hallowing the Silmarils didn´t made them greater or more beautiful, it just made them "untochable" to evil hands. They were already the best work ever done by an eldar.

[Elrian]

We are not trying to find great artisans here, Feanor made the Silmarils we all know that, he was the greatest artisan , but not the greatest Elf.

Morgoth Bauglir, how can you even argue a point when you can't even spell? Obloquy has a point, several of them in this thread as a matter of fact.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Obloquy said that Luthien was the greatest Eldar meaning she had the most potent spirit; And I can agree to that, since she was half maia. But she is not the greatest craftsman, or warrior, and my point is, that is for each reader to decide whom they think it is. Tolkien disliked allegory, because it was something the writer decided, not the reader; I think he would agree that each reader should read the books carefully, and study them, so that he may decide for himself, instead of taking on quote and then never think of it again. The discussions that we have about the greatest elf encourages everyone to consider whom they think should be considered, and why, thus making them studying the books more.

PS: Don't point out people's spelling errors unless it is so disturbing you don't understand the meaning, many don't have english as their native language, and it isn't fun for them to have their mistakes pointed out.

[Lush]

Tentatively, we have established that Fëanor is the greatest craftsman. That does not, however, raise him above the status of Lúthien. There are too many negative aspects to his nature. Furthermore, one can even argue that Fëanor had a weakness of spirit, when one considers his inability to deal with his anger, his rashness, cruelty, etc. A greater being, in my opinion, would not have acted like Fëanor did.
Moving on, I think the quote that so concerns Daniel in regards to Dior is :
"The Dior arose, and about his neck he clasped the Nauglamir;and now he appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world, of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm."
Pretty straightforward, one would think, except for the fact that we all "know" that Lúthien was the fairest. To her applies this quote:
"And of the love of Thingol and Melian there came into the world the fairest of all the Children of Ilúvatar that was or shall ever be."
Someone who has only read the Silmarillion can easily be confused by the above. Can this be explained by the fact that Lúthien was the fairest over all, while Dior only looked so good when the Silmaril was on his neck? Of course, I have yet to read the Lost Tales. Can anyone who has read that far comment on this?

[ July 28, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

Well the reason I made a post about that quote was not because I wanted to debate Dior's looks, but I guess that that is what has happened.
I think Luthien was the most beautiful; The quote says "now", meaning after her death. And Luthien was said to be more beautiful, with the silmaril around her neck, that was possible in the mortal lands.
Dior is not described like that, only that now with the silmaril he was the fairest.
Conclusion: Luthien was more beautiful, but Dior come close and is probably number one when it concerns males.

[Lush]

I wasn't debating looks. You can't really debate looks of fictional characters whom you have never met before. I was commenting on how confusing the whole issue can be.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

Lush I'll comment though I've yet to read the lost tales :S from that quote it sounds to me as if, at that particular moment, Dior was the fairest alive...however at this point his mother had died, so she could no longer be "in contention". Therefore when Tolkien said that Luthien was the fairest that was or ever shall be...this applied to all ages, but his reference to Dior implied only the Children still living.
I could be mistaken of course...*shrug* smilies/smile.gif

[Feanaro]

"Furthermore, one can even argue that Fëanor had a weakness of spirit, when one considers his inability to deal with his anger, his rashness, cruelty, etc."

I would disagree entirely. I would say that Fëanor's spirit was perhaps too potent. Remember the meaning of his name: Spirit of Fire. All of these negative characteristics, I would argue, are not the product of having a weak spirit, but of an overly fiery one.

As for the rest of this topic, oblo did not throw a theory out into the fray. He answered a question by stating the author's opinion, which, when applied to his own works, is law. This is not to be contested. This topic should not have carried on for this long. If you don't agree with this, fine, but don't try to argue against the author's opinion (which is much more important than your own on such a subject).

[Maédhros]

Tolkien does not put conditions or limitations on Luthien's greatness. The issue of her greatness isn't bound up in her deeds or her specific "powers," either. It was just damn good genetics.
I can agree with the fact that Luthien was the greatest overall elf.
What I was trying to know was what was the author intention when he wrote the quote provived by obloquy.
Is she the greatest artisan or warrior, etc. I don´t think so. I think that the author meant that she had the greatest overall spirit or qualities. She was the best overall, not in certain specifics areas.

[Lush]

I would say that Fëanor's spirit was perhaps too potent. Remember the meaning of his name: Spirit of Fire. All of these negative characteristics, I would argue, are not the product of having a weak spirit, but of an overly fiery one.

Feanaro, I think your definition of weakness, when applied to spirit, is different from mine. To me, any being who rages out of control is ultimately weak. To keep your cool requires much more strength than to freak out and go bezerk which is what our dear Fëanor did over and over again.
As for the relevance of this thread itself, I'm sure that "oblo" knew that someone would turn up to argue with him when he started it.

[ July 28, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Feanaro]

Indeed my definition of weakness (as I should have clarified) has to do with the potency of one's spirit, not the amount of self-control one has over oneself. Indeed Fëanor had little control over his passions. Control over oneself is not something I usually associate with one's spirit (but rather wisdom), hence the confusion and misinterpretation. But I fully agree that Fëanor was not in control of his own fiery nature.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

This is very hard to pick, but I have read several times that Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar. So in my opinion I would think Feanor, Luthien, Finrod Felagund, Fingolfin, and galadriel. By the time of the War of the Ring, who else was there that old of the elves? Not a lot. Most of them were from Beleriand, and Galadriel did see the light of the two trees, so she was very old. And she grew wise every year.

[*Varda*]

I don't think Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar. Not in spirit anyway. He may have had a strong spirit, but in terms of purity it was arguably pretty weak.

I think Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar. As many have said, Tolkien placed no conditions on this. He said it was so, and as the author, his word is basically law.

[Maédhros]

He may have had a strong spirit, but in terms of purity it was arguably pretty weak.
In terms of passion, it was unsurpassed.

[Legolas]

What about Luthien's passion for Beren?

[Maédhros]

I believe that is what is called love.

[Legolas]

But you do recognize that love is a type of passion.

How do you contest that Feanor's passion surpasses that of Luthien?

In order to save unnecessary posts, I'll put the follow-up here too...

I was just wondering if that was a personal opinion or if it had a textual reference. No offense intended, nor an implication that you were wrong or right.

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Maédhros]

How do you contest that Feanor's passion surpasses that of Luthien?
I don't have a quote from the books that says that.
I would say that Luthien's passion comes from outside, his love for Beren, while Feanor's comes more from within. Althought the silmarils were made of the blended light of the trees.

[Lush]

Lúthien loved Beren, and risked her life for him. Fëanor loved his creations, and, through his creations, he loved himself. I think there is a big difference here. Not in terms of the text, but in terms of my own views on life, Fëanor's passion is impure and misdirected. I don't know...I just don't like the guy. I view him as a bratty emotional weakling. Talented, yes, but whiny and irrational. Like a diva.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I view him as a bratty emotional weakling. Talented, yes, but whiny and irrational. Like a diva. -Lush

How is he emotional?how is he weak?

[Legolas]

He had very little self control.

Edit: Perhaps he had some and chose not to display it openly.

[ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Elendur]

I dont think you can say he had very little self control. Melkor deceived him and wove lies into his thoughts. How can an elf be expected to be so cunning as to perceive all of Melkors actions? It is like Hurin realizing he had been doing Melkors will after he was released from Thangorodrim only after he had done what Melkor wanted. Do you think Hurin also had little self control after withstanding Melkor for all those years?

Im not saying Feanor was without fault, but not all blame can be placed on him.

[Feanaro]

"I don't think Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar. Not in spirit anyway. He may have had a strong spirit, but in terms of purity it was arguably pretty weak."

Firstly, there's no need to think about it--Fëanor was not the greatest of the Eldar anyway. Secondly, self-control is not an aspect of one's spirit, and thus has no relevancy in determening whether Fëanor had a weak spirit. Thirdly, I have never before seen purity measured in terms of strength or weakness.

"The love of Finwe and Miriel was great indeed, for it began in the Blessed Realm in the Days of Bliss. But in the bearing of her son Miriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his (Fëanor's) birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to Finwe: 'Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor.'"

I think Tolkien was trying to get the image across that Fëanor's spirit was very potent.

[Lush]

Oh, I'm not placing all the blame on Fëanor, I'm just saying that I don't like the guy. And I think that lack of self-control is a weakness of spirit. It has to do with my religious views (which don't belond on a Tolkien forum anyway, but then there you go).

[the phantom]

I don't think Feanor particularly lacked self-control, I just think he was very resolute, didn't want to be anyone's b!%ch, didn't like his father getting killed, and didn't like his creations (which were beyond the reach of the Maia, probably even some of the Ainu) getting stolen by the same guy that corrupted him and killed his father!!!
Put yourself in his shoes. I think you would've gone on a mad revenge quest too. It was all about getting to Melkor. First, the Valar let the evil little rat run around free, secondly, he had robbed Feanor of his greatest treasures, Finwe (his father) and the Silmarils (the greatest things ever made with hands), and lastly, the Valar weren't going after Melkor to take him out. If I was Feanor I would've taken off after him too, and I would've been pretty ticked off if people had said that my actions were whiny, emotional, and impure after all I had been through.
He held a whole multitude of people to his will and even told off a herald of the Valar (who bowed to Feanor after Feanor spoke). He fought all alone at the front of the battlefield, surrounded by balrogs, and never retreated until he was struck down. Doesn't sound weak to me. An emotional weakling would've been cowed by the thought of going out away from protection and trying to take on an unbeatable enemy.
I think he did pretty well considering the most powerful being on earth, Melkor, was trying to destroy and corrupt him.
Feanor had the right idea with not practicing self-control. It wasn't the time for it, it was the time to overthrow Melkor. If the Valar had just gone with Feanor to overthrow Melkor, it wouldn't have been nearly as tough as it was later when they finally got our of their rocking chairs and did it. Feanor was trying to do what he knew had to be done, and wasn't gonna let the Valar or other elves stop him. It's not always time for self control!

(I apologize if I'm coming on too strong, but I'm very passionate about this topic. Since the first time I read Silmarilian, I've sympathized with Feanor, and admired his fire and resolute actions, and I think he did better than any of us would've done in his situation, unless you think it would've been better to sit in Valinor and cry while Melkor takes over the world.)

[Groin Redbeard]

Was Elrond an Eldar?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Elrond was 9/16 Eldarin by blood. More important though is the fact that he was given the choice and elected to be an Elf.

[Eönwë]

First of all, what is greatness?
If you say potency of spirit, then I think Feanor had a very potent spirit. I seem to recall that when he died it turned his body to ash (obviously related to his name "fiery spirit")

WHy stick to only Eldar?
I mean there were some great elves that were not eldar. I think the non-eldar elves get too neglected in these sorts of things. As an example of one in LOR, I could give you Legolas, or his father Thranduil (who was more in the hobbit)

What about wisdom?
The wisest elf on ME is obiously Cirdan. He is the oldest elf that is not in Valinor and he has suffered many hardships. Not to mention that he gave his ring of power to Gandaf (ALso a sacrifice, might be a sign of greatness).

How does Luthien qualify to be Eldar?
Isn't it a bit strange that a half-elf can wualify as eldar? She is half divine, and her father only becomes Eldar through strange circumstances. Elu Thingol (or ELwe Singollo) is also a SIndar elf, remember that. And she is half MAiar. Anyone achieving demi-godliness is great.

BUt Luthien is not great because of being herself, or an eldar, neither is she geat for anything but her birth. She did not achieve greatness she just is great.
HOw can that be greatness. JUst because your mother is a goddess it shouldn't make you great.

Greatesss depends on what you mean: It could be potency of spirit, nobility of birth, divinity levels, beauty,strebght, warrior skill, crafting, wisdom, cunning, self-sacrifice, etc. Luthien only fits one of these things. Some Eldar fit many more. (I will discuss this in more detail, but it is late here)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

WHy stick to only Eldar?
I mean there were some great elves that were not eldar. I think the non-eldar elves get too neglected in these sorts of things. As an example of one in LOR, I could give you Legolas, or his father Thranduil (who was more in the hobbit)

Sorry, they were both Sindar, and therefore Eldar. Even if Legolas' mother was a Nando- well, the Nandor were Eldar too.

No Avar ever comes in to any of Tolkien's narratives.

[Galin]

According to The Lord of the Rings the East-elves were not Eldar however, nor their languages considered Eldarin. Thus most of the folk of Mirkwood and Lórien were not considered Eldar.

Still Thranduil was Eldarin, being Sindarin as noted.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Cirdan wasn't an elf to my knowledge... I thought that Elves had nicely un- bearded faces and Cirdan had a beard.... Maybe I'm just strange...:(

[obloquy]

Cirdan was a first-generation Elda.

First of all, what is greatness?
If you say potency of spirit, then I think Feanor had a very potent spirit. I seem to recall that when he died it turned his body to ash (obviously related to his name "fiery spirit")

He did have a potent spirit, and he was one of the three greatest Eldar.

WHy stick to only Eldar?
I mean there were some great elves that were not eldar.

I'd be surprised if you could name some great Avari. Still, even if you can, they weren't as great as the Eldar.

What about wisdom?

The whole point of the original post is that Tolkien provided an unequivocal and (this part seems the hardest to grasp) unqualified answer to the question. It's not about what they were great at: just as Sauron is unquestionably Morgoth's greatest servant, Luthien is unquestionably the greatest of the Eldar, followed by Feanor and Galadriel--relative wisdom, might in battle, skill in crafts, etc. notwithstanding.

How does Luthien qualify to be Eldar?
Isn't it a bit strange that a half-elf can wualify as eldar? She is half divine, and her father only becomes Eldar through strange circumstances. Elu Thingol (or ELwe Singollo) is also a SIndar elf, remember that. And she is half MAiar. Anyone achieving demi-godliness is great.


Firstly, children of the Eldar are Eldar by birth. Otherwise Elwe and Cirdan would be the only ones mentioned in this thread who actually qualify as Eldar. Secondly, the first post in this thread contains direct quotations from Tolkien himself, so it's not a matter of opinion or debate. Also, I'm curious: why would you say that Elwe is an Elda only because of "strange circumstances"?

BUt Luthien is not great because of being herself, or an eldar, neither is she geat for anything but her birth. She did not achieve greatness she just is great.
HOw can that be greatness. JUst because your mother is a goddess it shouldn't make you great.

Have you even read the Silmarillion?

Greatesss depends on what you mean: It could be potency of spirit, nobility of birth, divinity levels, beauty,strebght, warrior skill, crafting, wisdom, cunning, self-sacrifice, etc. Luthien only fits one of these things. Some Eldar fit many more. (I will discuss this in more detail, but it is late here)

No, it doesn't. If it did, Tolkien would have qualified his declaration of greatness each time he made it. To Tolkien, it meant inner power--the metaphysical magnitude of a person. There's no need to discuss it more, because this is an open-and-shut case. If someone asks "Who is the greatest Elf?" the answer is, indubitably, Luthien Tinuviel. Why? Because Tolkien said so.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Well, if it's what the Professor said, then that is true. Because he essentially is the creator of Middle-earth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Galin,

Without getting into a 'my canon is better than your canon' fight, post-LR Tolkien definitely included the 'sylvan' Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien among the Eldar, coining the term Nandor for them and making them cousins of the Laiquendi of Ossiriand. Under that understanding, the "East-elves" are somewhere, well... farther East.

[Galin]

Galin, Without getting into a 'my canon is better than your canon' fight, ...'

In which battle The Lord of the Rings is mighty strong ;) but there is another approach in any case.

'... post-LR Tolkien definitely included the 'sylvan' Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien among the Eldar, coining the term Nandor for them and making them cousins of the Laiquendi of Ossiriand. Under that understanding, the "East-elves" are somewhere, well... farther East.'

Not necessarily. The Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lórien can still be East-elves and not Eldar when later (but 'unpublished') texts are considered.

'The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri, and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor.' (...) 'The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan, and they welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar who did not pass over the Sea but migrated eastward .' Unfinished Tales

The Tawarwaith were in origin Teleri, hardly to be distinguished from Avari (which thus distinguishes them actually), and were in origin Eldar.

'Nandor. This name must have been made at the time, in the latter days of the March, when certain groups of the Teleri gave up the March; and it was especially applied to the large following of Lenwe who refused to cross the Hithaeglir. The name was often interpreted as 'Those who go back'; but in fact none of the Nandor appear to have returned, or to have joined the Avari. Many remained and settled in lands that they had reached, especially beside the River Anduin; some turned aside and wandered southwards'. Q&E

So, Mirkwood and Lórien: mostly 'East-elves' (The Lord of the Rings). The East-elves were probably a mix of Nandor (Eldar 'in origin') and Avari. The term Eldar becomes narrowed again to basically West-elves (it had been narrowed already in the internal history). This is not only a possible explanation (in my opinion), using both The Lord of the Rings and unpublished texts, but I note an earlier situation with respect to the Danas revealed in The History of Middle-Earth:

[I]'In any case, the Danas are sufficiently characterised as Elves of the Great March who abandoned it early on but who still felt a desire for the West (...) Their position is anomalous, and might equally well be classified either as Eldarin or as not Eldarin.'

Christopher Tolkien, commentary The Lhammas HME V

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In QS, contemporary with the Lhammas, Tolkien had *all* the Danians eventually go on to Beleriand, without leaving any kin behind; and (consonant with the Lhammas quote) used the term Pereldar 'half-Eldar' for them. (Thus of course when the Lorien chapters were written the Elves of Lorien were seen as Avari save for Galadriel herself. In this connection Imrazor+Mithrellas isn't counted in the Appendices as a Man-Elda marriage. But under the later conception this can be regarded as a needed correction overlooked, like 'House of Finrod.'


In 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' T says that Galadriel in Eregion had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lorinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains. This was peopled by those Elves who forsook the Great Journey of the Eldar from Cuivienen and settled in the woods of the Vales of Anduin.... Many Sindar and Noldor came to live among them, and their 'Sindarizing' under the impact of Beleriandic culture began No suggestion of Avari being present in the mix.

At any rate, for the purposes of this discussion, it's enough to observe that no named Avar ever appears, so it's silly to look among them for a 'great' Elf.

[Galin]

In QS, contemporary with the Lhammas, Tolkien had *all* the Danians eventually go on to Beleriand, without leaving any kin behind; and (consonant with the Lhammas quote) used the term Pereldar 'half-Eldar' for them.

The point was simply that Tolkien could, and already had, thought of a group whose status as 'Eldar' might depend upon its application. Later (and basically) Eldar: originally all Elves ('People of the Stars'), narrows to 'Marchers' (properly excludes the Avari), and narrows to 'West Elves' (properly excludes the Silvan Elves or East-elves of Mirkwood and Lórien).

(Thus of course when the Lorien chapters were written the Elves of Lorien were seen as Avari save for Galadriel herself. In this connection Imrazor+Mithrellas isn't counted in the Appendices as a Man-Elda marriage. But under the later conception this can be regarded as a needed correction overlooked, like 'House of Finrod.'

But why disregard a prime source and the ultimate conception described in it to conclude a correction is needed? Mithrelass is a Silvan Elf, thus not an Elda. No correction needed.

Indeed in UT Mithrellas 'was of the lesser Silvan race (and not of the High Elves or the Grey)' Nimrodel was a Silvan Elf, and sought to pass over Sea. These Elves are not Eldarin because that are not of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of days, including not being Sindarin (who achieved Beleriand of course).

In 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' T says that Galadriel in Eregion had (... edit quote). No suggestion of Avari being present in the mix.

But in other later but unpublished texts (like Quendi And Eldar) there are Avari in the mix, and I was including them. If one excludes the Avari, OK, but then the Nandor of these two realms are still not Eldar by its later, narrowed sense.

'Elves has been used to translate both Quendi, 'the speakers', the High-elven name of all their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only).' (RotK, Appendix F)

Or

'The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lórien; but their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form.' Return of the King

[Eönwë]

At any rate, for the purposes of this discussion, it's enough to observe that no named Avar ever appears, so it's silly to look among them for a 'great' Elf.

I can answer with one word:

Eöl

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Eol was *not* of the Avari, but of the Sindar.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Lord of the Rings hardly represents an "ultimate" conception.

Moreover, I find no warrant for a 'late' or 'final' formulation wherein "Eldar' has been narrowed to "Elves of Valinor + Sindar." The Eldar were those who embarked on the March, whether they finished it or not. The only change which occurred relative to the Silvans was the recognition that they were part of the March.

[Galin]

The Lord of the Rings hardly represents an "ultimate" conception.

I meant ultimately published there, as opposed to your statement that Tolkien once thought the East-elves were Avari '... when the Lorien chapters were written'. One notes however, that Tolkien does not call the East-elves Avari in the 'ultimate' version sent off for publication, as opposed to a draft of something (the term Avari does not appear in The Lord of the Rings IIRC).

Moreover, I find no warrant for a 'late' or 'final' formulation wherein "Eldar' has been narrowed to "Elves of Valinor + Sindar." The Eldar were those who embarked on the March, whether they finished it or not. The only change which occurred relative to the Silvans was the recognition that they were part of the March.

Eldar being narrowed to West-elves is what Tolkien published. I look at it with respect to application of language rather than varying conceptions. No one seems to object that Elda took on the sense of Eldo 'One of the Marchers' and then properly excluded the Avari -- what is wrong then with the information in The Lord of the Rings? Nothing that I can see, not even the fact that Tolkien would decide that the Nandor began the March. Tolkien himself should have no problem with the fluidity of a term.

On Eol, Tolkien did consider the idea, but as Mr. Hicklin says and as CJRT notes...

'It is curious that - as in the original text of Maeglin, where he was 'of the kin of Thingol' - in my father's very late work on the story Eol becomes again 'one of the Eldar' (p. 328), though consumed with hatred of the Ñoldor; whereas here he is a Mornedhel (one of the Avari), and moreover of the aboriginal Second Clan.' CJRT, Quendi And Eldar

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But how are we to interpret "west-elves" and "East-Elves?" I'm not aware of any line on the map, but I feel comfortable that "the West-lands of Middle-earth" extended beyond the Hithaeglir. Rather like Ostrogoths and Visigoths- the West-goths were the ones who moved west first, even if many of their 'eastern' cousins eventually reached Western Europe as well. Similarly the West-elves/Eldar were those who left Cuivienen for the West, leaving their Refusenik brethren behind.

It's also worth observing that, although of course they occurred more or less by accident, Elvish place-names in The Hobbit such as Esgaroth are 'Ilkorin,' that is, the tongue of the Grey-elves under the old dispensation: a language which Tolkien derived (in theory) from Common Eldarin, not Primitive Quendian. This would suggest that the 'west-elven language group' extended at least as far as Erebor and the Sea of Rhun.

Or, from another angle: Tolkien tells us that there were no Avari in Beleriand (notwithstanding his vacillation with regard to Eol). Therefore the Green-elves were Eldar; and if they were then necessarily so also were the Danian Nandor.

[Galin]

Another way to view the distinction might not be so much with respect to the West Lands of Middle-earth of Frodo's day, but rather the West as in Over Sea plus Beleriand. And the Sindar (in general at least) had reached about as West as you could go without sailing Oversea. Note, from the Lhammas again (but just for comparison):

'This is very clear. The term Eldar has acquired its later significance of the Elves of the Great Journey (only), and is not restricted to those who in the end went to Valinor, but includes the Elves of Beleriand: the Eldar are those who completed the journey from Kuiviénen to the country between Eredlindon and the Sea.'

This seems a model for the later Eldar 'West-elves'.

'On the other hand all Elves who did depart from Kuiviénen but who did not complete that journey are numbered among the Lembi. The term Ilkorindi is now used in a much narrower sense than previously: specifically the Eldar of Beleriand -- the later Sindar, or Grey Elves.'

In Lhammas A the Eldar are the departed, including those that went to Valinor and those that reached Beleriand but remained there -- while the Lembi includes those that remained in the East and those that were lost on the journey to Beleriand. This seems an early model for East-elves, though revision was to follow of course.

If 'the Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches' the movements of the Nandor spreading into Eriador, and finally entering Beleriand may not have changed the fact that they essentially were considered East-elves. For example, even entering Beleriand 'somewhat later' might have carried a distinction in the minds of the Sindar: 'Moerbin was similarly an equivalent for Avari; but that it did not mean only 'Dark-elves' is seen by its ready application to other Incarnates, when they later became known. By the Sindar anyone dwelling outside Beleriand, or entering their realm from outside, was called a Morben.' Q&E

[Ghazi]

The greatest of all the Eldar was Luthien Tinuviel. Now this question never has to be asked again!

I disagree as well because Luthien wasn't one of the Eldar. Eldar are those Elves who saw the light of the Two Trees. Luthien is disqualified because even if one considers her an Elf, which I don't, she never saw the Two Trees. I don't consider her an Elf because she was born half Maia, half Elf and died a human. How does that make one an Elf?

[obloquy]

I disagree as well because Luthien wasn't one of the Eldar. Eldar are those Elves who saw the light of the Two Trees. Luthien is disqualified because even if one considers her an Elf, which I don't, she never saw the Two Trees. I don't consider her an Elf because she was born half Maia, half Elf and died a human. How does that make one an Elf?

Tolkien must not have understood the meaning of the word. Boy, I'm glad we've got such sharp folks around here!

[Eönwë]

Have you even read the Silmarillion?

Yes, I have, and though I must admit that Kuthien did some pretty amazing things, I think Cirdan beats her in that area. (I would give an example, but I haven't got much time now, maybe later)

Also, I'm curious: why would you say that Elwe is an Elda only because of "strange circumstances"?

Because though he did "behold the light" he is also of the Sindar (If Sindar does not count as Eldar). He is both an Elda and a Sinda. He refused to go to Valinor, so he is of the Úmanyar as well (I think, correct me if I am wrong, but I know he is a Sinda)

[Lalaith]

I'm so glad this thread has been bumped up...the first page always made me laugh a lot. I just wish the graph was still visible.

[Galin]

The Sindar are Eldar -- they were part of the Great March and reached Beleriand.

Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand.

List of Names , The Children of Húrin

'... and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only).' (RotK, Appendix F)

That's the short (fairly recent) version from Christopher Tolkien. And JRRT on Eldar according to The Lord of the Rings.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It's funny: this thread was never meant to receive posts. It's main function was to stand as a reference for a particular fact -- that of Luthien being the greatest of the Eldar. obloquy explicitly stated that he intended to stop the pointless debates about which Elf was the greatest. I remember reading the thread when it was created and thinking 'How could anyone argue with this?' :D

[Ghazi]

Boy, I'm glad we've got such sharp folks around here!

...and us sharp folk are glad that we have people like you around obloquy.