all British tolkienites HERE [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

10-20-2003, 12:31 PM

I really hope so...I just voted.
I saw that on TV too, was a tad annoying, although I suppose I can see it from their totally unobssessed point of view. Man, they're weird.
And really, they oughtn't to have dissed the Harry Potter series, because, hyped up as they are, it is amazing, that young kids will read a book over 700 pages long without any pictures. Not that I am an HP fan in particular, it just annoyed me.
And I loved Birdsong, I just read it for the second time.
I love Wuthering Heights too, it is unlike any of the other books from the period which I have read (which would be very few...but oh well), because the characters are so strong and full of passion.
I've read Tess of the D'Urbevilles (such a sad ending!!!!) and Far from the Madding Crowd...they were ok, only extraordinarily subtle...and the sheep falling off the cliff had me in stitches!
Hmm, that was slightly off-topic.
Anyway...go vote!!!
Oh and I was going to say to Lyra, if an American were to submit an entry, then they had better do it with English spellings!

Daisy Brambleburr

10-20-2003, 12:38 PM

I watched the Big Read on TV, and I wasn't very impressed. They dismissed a lot of books, showed random and irrelavent video clips and the discussions and information was genrally not very good or imformative. I don't think the panel's discussion of LotR was particularly good either. I think I heard someone say that it was 'rubbish', and it seemed to me that they dissed a lot of books without a given reason, sometimes when they hadn't even read them. I too agree with the TORN report.
What did you think about the Hobbit not making it to the top 21 because Tolkien already had one there? Surely if the public liked it enough to vote it there it should be there, regardless of how many other books by the author there are.

[ October 20, 2003: Message edited by: Daisy Brambleburr ]

Arwen1858

10-20-2003, 12:57 PM

I just voted! There are quite a few good books on their, but of course none of them as good as LotR. It will probably be a tough compatition, thought! Hopefully LotR will prevail, and come out number one!! Or in the top 5, at least.
Arwen

Airerûthiel

10-20-2003, 01:22 PM

As an avid reader and a future novelist, I request to be allowed a rant against the Big Read. I'll apologise for getting carried away prior to writing because it's inevitable:

I totally agree with that report at TORN. But that programme was so anti-modern, anti-fantasy and anti-children's literature! I'd love to see the look on that panel's faces if something like The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe won (it's the closest I could get to filling all those categories). But it was the ageist comments that really got to me over all the others.

Whenever the alleged 'experts' were discussing the book, one woman in particular kept saying, "Read this book before you are 13 or 14" - it was always those years for some reason - "because after that it's rubbish" or words to that effect. Utter, utter (bleep) in my opinion. I was part of a group of 30 12 and 13-year-olds who were given Jane Eyre as a set text for English class, this being the age group recommended by this woman to have read it by. Only one person - yours truly - wanted to finish the book once we'd read all we were required to. Anyone in the education system will know you cannot put something like that in front of many teenagers because they simply will not read it properly - it's not something to be enjoyed, it's something to get through.

The comment about 'no more than one book per author' is good for some reasons - be honest, who really wants to watch four virtually identical documentaries on Harry Potter books? - but stupid for others. It's meant to be the top 21 that we voted for - not publishers, not writers, not BBC executives - us, the reading public of Great Britain (and of course the international voters).

And speaking of Harry Potter...Goblet of Fire to go through to the final 21?! What is the issue with these people? Just because it was the most recent at the time of the poll doesn't make it the best - that must be Prisoner of Azkaban - and if anything, it should be Philosopher's Stone, as that was the one that kicked the whole thing off.

Right *deep breath* I think that'll be all. Thank you and good night!

Failivrin

10-20-2003, 02:13 PM

oh GOD that woman annoyed me! and so did linda smith. i mean, she only had opinions on the books she hadn't read. then we come to robert winston whom i admire immensely but people; HE IS A SCIENTIST. he is NOT a literary person and that was reflected in his comments.

i cannot BELIEVE that goblet made it into the top 21. IMO it is the worst of the harry potter series, azkaban being the best (and only original) one.

the lord of the rings had better win and if it doesn't then i do not trust the poll.

something to hearten us though; ladbrokes have LOTR 4/1 for the win smilies/biggrin.gif

Olorin_TLA

10-20-2003, 03:39 PM

smilies/rolleyes.gif That woman was so stupid. Her sole "contribution" to the show was to reveal her philosophy that ALL books CANNOT at any cost be read once you're 15+.
Every book.

She is an actual cretin... smilies/mad.gif

Oh, and here's a quote to describe the attitude of the panel:

"Trolls are slow in the uptake, and mighty suspicious about anything new to them."

- The Hobbit

smilies/evil.gif

...

Oh, you can vote once per wekk. Don't forget! smilies/tongue.gif (And Goblet of Fire rules.)

[ October 20, 2003: Message edited by: Olorin_TLA ]

Failivrin

10-21-2003, 02:12 PM

i voted about 7 times o nthis connection and then it stopped me with some STUPID message about how you can only vote once per programme. smilies/mad.gif

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-22-2003, 11:42 AM

I never watched it but I can imagine that my favourite book was brutalised by the "experts". It seems very clear that the public will be dissauded from voting for The Rings, but with the films so popular just now, I think there's a good chance it could win.

I would also like to see a strong defense of the book which completely overrides the panel's criticisms.

Essex

10-27-2003, 07:55 AM

I think we will get a more balanced view when ray mears presents his opinion on why lotr is the best book. it should be on bbc2 in the next few weeks.

re multiple voting. sorry for my opinion, but this will devalue the result of the survey for me. only vote once, doing more so is cheating and will not give a proper account. if lotr is not the most favourite book (which I think it WILL be) then so be it.....

ps Whenever I see that 'comdedien' who ridiculed lotr on the big read on the tv now I just swear and shout at her. She was on Have I got News for you the other night, and I turned the air blue with my thoughts on her throughout the programme. (I did like her comedy before her stupid comments on the big read show. you can tell she is one of the thousands of people who diss lotr even though they haven't read it!)

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

10-27-2003, 09:03 AM

God, yeah, Essex. So many of my friends are exactly like her. 'It's too long!' 'Life is too short!'. My dad is normally the latter, but not on LOTR. He introduced me into it.
Azkaban was way the best HP book- the time-turner idea was amazing. And confusing. But Harry was confused too, so never mind.
But about that only one vote thing- I can always vote 5 times before it says I can only vote once a week. Which is weird.
In the Times it said the odds on LOTR winning were 3/1, because its fans were the most obsessed and would vote every week. We'd better keep up the reputation and get it to win! Although I think the HP lot will be a force to be reckoned with.

the guy who be short

10-27-2003, 10:49 AM

LotR is first so far! But it is VITAL that we don't get lured into a false sense of security. Pride and Prejudice somehow got to second, but I don't think of it as a threat. HP on the other hand... Well, it's third and has an army of followers. VOTE NOW! We cannot lsoe to Hary Potter... I for one would be ridiculed to death at my school.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

10-27-2003, 11:59 AM

My view is simple:

I The Big Read is intended to get people to read good books. I already read good books, and can describe them a little better than an assortment of soap stars and stand-up comedians. Also it will give people a useful resource to enable them to choose which of their books to place on the most prominent display, not to mention a list of books that 'normal' people may be assumed to have read. If you want that sort of thing, this will be great for you. Otherwise it'll be a curiosity at best.

II It doesn't matter whether or not Tolkien wins. Sad, but true. If he gets the top spot fairly it will confirm that he's very popular, which we knew already. It will do nothing to make The Lord of the Rings more acceptable in literary circles; in fact it will probably reinforce the view that we, Tolkien's fans, are obsessive, emotionally stunted and intellectually blinkered. To help you to understand why, consider how likely it is that Thomas Hardy's fans have been cheating to try and get Jude the Obscure into the top spot.

III This sort of thing is inherently inaccurate and basically pointless. One cannot quantify art, and therefore it must follow that one cannot rank works of art either. All this survey is trying to do is to establish which book is most people's favourite, so whether or not Tolkien gets even into the top six should be a matter of supreme indifference. It will change nothing. The big battle is for Tolkien's official acceptance as an author of classic literature, which can be won only through intelligent, well-informed and scholarly debate.

[ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

Daisy Brambleburr

10-27-2003, 02:10 PM

I recently purchased the Big Read 'book of books', and it's pretty good. In the introduction it has this to say about multiple voting:

With sophisticated measures in place to identify and discount any attempts at multiple voting we were able to ensure that the results were genuine.

So I'm not sure if it will make much different how many times you vote.

On the double page spread for LotR (for anyone who's interested) there is a big picture of Gandalf Ian McKellen) in Fangorn forest, a quote from Ray Mears:

Tolkien's epic isn't just a fabulous adventure. It's a tale that champions the values of long-lost ways of living and connects us to the very land that surrounds us.

There's a also a Tolkien biography, 'the story in a nutshell' and a small picture of the Bakshi poster, the current movie poster and other smaller captions and cover images.

If anyone wants to know something else about the LotR (or any other) part of this book, they only have to ask smilies/biggrin.gif

[ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: Daisy Brambleburr ]

Failivrin

10-27-2003, 03:45 PM

Elentari: i have that article from the times: i'm treasuring it.

Essex: the same about linda smith. i used to like her a lot but now she just angers me. i would not have minded it if she had criticised constructively but saying 'it's rubbish' and giving no further thought was stupid.

you can usually vote about 7 times from each connection before it catches you. they count every vote you register until it says there has been an error and then you're not allowed to vote for another week.

The Saucepan Man

10-27-2003, 10:31 PM

I think we will get a more balanced view when ray mears presents his opinion on why lotr is the best book.

I will be interested to watch this, although I am a bit miffed that we didn't get someone with a bit more clout. Still, at least we haven't got William Hague. smilies/eek.gif Poor Birdsong doesn't stand a chance with him advocating it. smilies/biggrin.gif

re multiple voting. sorry for my opinion, but this will devalue the result of the survey for me.

That was my initial thought too, Essex. And it looks like some form of multiple voting is possible, whatever "sophisticated" means the BBC might have in place to stop it. But the survey may still have value. Multiple voting will take account of the impact that a book has had on its readers (since people will be more inclined to vote multiple times for books that have made a greater impression on them), as well as the number of people who rate it. And that, of course, can only favour LotR. smilies/cool.gif

She was on Have I got News for you the other night, and I turned the air blue with my thoughts on her throughout the programme.

Hehe, I thought much the same when I watched it. She is a good commedienne, mind. But perhaps she should stick to what she is good at rather than making disparaging comments about a book that she has never read.

This sort of thing is inherently inaccurate and basically pointless. One cannot quantify art, and therefore it must follow that one cannot rank works of art either. All this survey is trying to do is to establish which book is most people's favourite, so whether or not Tolkien gets even into the top six should be a matter of supreme indifference. It will change nothing. The big battle is for Tolkien's official acceptance as an author of classic literature, which can be won only through intelligent, well-informed and scholarly debate.

I'm not sure that I agree with you on this, Squatter. The vagaries of multiple voting aside, the poll will provide some measure of LotR's popularity. And a book's popularity is, in turn, surely some measure of its worth. After all, books are (generally) written to entertain. And the more people that a book entertains, the more popular it will be. I, for one, will be greatly chuffed if LotR makes the top spot (or even the top 3), since it will to some degree confirm its worth by reference to the reason for which it was written (ie to entertain). And it will place it squarely on a par (in these terms) with a number of books that are recognised as classics of literature.

And I have to say that, whether or not it is accepted as such by academics is a matter of supreme indifference to me. smilies/evil.gif smilies/wink.gif

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-28-2003, 07:43 AM

A small point perhaps, but why does it list the book as "Lord of the Rings"? I think we're missing a "The" somewhere...

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

10-30-2003, 05:34 AM

Good point, Eomer. There should be a 'The'.

I'm not sure that I agree with you on this, Squatter. The vagaries of multiple voting aside, the poll will provide some measure of LotR's popularity. And a book's popularity is, in turn, surely some measure of its worth. After all, books are (generally) written to entertain. And the more people that a book entertains, the more popular it will be. I, for one, will be greatly chuffed if LotR makes the top spot (or even the top 3), since it will to some degree confirm its worth by reference to the reason for which it was written (ie to entertain). And it will place it squarely on a par (in these terms) with a number of books that are recognised as classics of literature.

And I have to say that, whether or not it is accepted as such by academics is a matter of supreme indifference to me.
Okey doke, Saucy. I think I will agree with you just for the sake of a happy life. I can also use this as a weapon in case we do win and the HP fans try to wreak revenge by taking Squatter's POV. (Sorry, Squatter...I do kind of agree with what you're saying, but I would like to survive too... smilies/wink.gif ) Luckily, we have few HP fans in my school. Just the years 7 and (a few from) 8. Thank goodness for that. The rest are more interested in TV programs, movie stars like OB, etc. (I go to a girls' school).

Daisy Brambleburr

11-05-2003, 02:35 PM

Does anyone know when LotR is going to be given it's half an hour time slot? This saturday it's the hitch hikers guide to the galaxy, to kill a mocking bird and something else. Can't wait for it to be our turn!

And some bookmakers have stopped taking bets on LotR now. I guess it must be very far ahead!

The Saucepan Man

11-05-2003, 06:43 PM

And some bookmakers have stopped taking bets on LotR now. I guess it must be very far ahead!

Indeed. I think that Ladbrokes have stopped taking bets now, and maybe a few others. And, since bookmakers inevitably know what they are talking about in these matters, it looks like LotR is going to romp home. Which I personally find very encouraging. smilies/smile.gif

Olorin_TLA

11-06-2003, 11:49 AM

Now we just see if LotR's Z-list celebrity (like the others) makes an ebarresment of himself...

Eomer of the Rohirrim

11-07-2003, 07:09 AM

On a side note (its not worth starting a new thread) what are your other favourites on the list? For me its 1984 and the Hitchhikers Guide. Both marvellous reads, but nowhere close to The Lord of the Rings.

And yes, its true. Bookmakers are our betters and know no falsity. smilies/wink.gif

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-07-2003, 10:49 AM

Ok, I have voted so many times I can't see the top 21! But from the ones I remember I like Great Expectations (did it in year 10), Pride and Prejudice (year 9, and read it before I saw it smilies/mad.gif ), Birdsong...um...

From the rest of the list I like Tess of the D'Urbevilles, Far from the Madding Crowd, I Capture the Castle, A Tale of Two Cities...Animal Farm was ok, but I'm not really into politics...Brave New World was frankly disturbing and has to be one of the most depressing books I've ever read...!

Daisy Brambleburr

11-07-2003, 01:28 PM

I love the Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy, I'm reading it now and I've just started 'Mostly Harmless'. I also like Animal Farm, The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe (but it's not my favorite CS Lewis book) and Winnie the Pooh.

A quick question: do you think there are any hidden reasons that LotR is ahead (other than it being an utterly fantabulous book). Have you voted, and how many times? Do you think that all LotR fans will vote more than once, and if the movies were not out would it be doing as well?

Failivrin

11-07-2003, 03:23 PM

i also really love gone with teh wind, but i think it's losing...

ian mckellen is on have i got news for you tonight *eek*!

i think LOTR is ahead because it is a great book. obviously the number of votes may be different, but let's not forget that it won waterstone's book of the century before FOTR came out...

The Saucepan Man

11-07-2003, 09:10 PM

what are your other favourites on the list

Rather embarassingly, I have only read 7 on the list (including LotR). Second place, for me, would have to go to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which was pure comic genius, as with all Douglas Adams' writings (he is sadly missed). Other than that, I really liked Wuthering Heights, which I read for my 'A' level exams, and which was one of only two set texts which I read twice (the other was Farewell to Arms, but Hemmingway astoundingly didn't even feature in the top 100). And, of course, 1984, which I did for 'O' level (although I preferred Animal Farm).

Wind in the Willows has a special place in my affections, as does Winnie the Pooh, but I would describe neither as being in my top 21 books. One of Philip Pullman's books is (courtesy of my Tolkien fan sister-in-law) sitting on my bedside table, ready to read, but I haven't got round to it yet.

Bottom of my list would be Great Expectations, but I never got on with Dickens. I read the abridged version for a school essay on it (and still got an A smilies/biggrin.gif ).

Books that should be there in my view: The Magus by John Fowles, an incredible psychological exploration, Frank Herbert's Dune and Umberto Eco's Foucald's Pendulum. I am sure that there are others, but I can't think of them for now.

Brave New World was frankly disturbing and has to be one of the most depressing books I've ever read...!

Ah yes, that should be there. A very good book indeed. Disturbing, yes, but surely very relevant to modern society - perhaps one of the biggest issues facing us today.

are any hidden reasons that LotR is ahead

Well, I think that the films have something to do with it, But not as much as critics would have us believe. The films have got people into the books, certainly, and that is a wonderful thing. But I don't believe that people who have enjoyed the films but can't get on with the book will vote for it. And it is one of those books that fans will vote for again and again (as I have), but that only confirms how strongly admirers of the books feel about it. Ultimately, though, I think that it comes down to the fact that it is, however much those po-faced critics might rail against it, a very popular book.

Have you voted, and how many times?

Yes. Every time I go to the "Big Read" site. Which is fine by me, since I expect fans of the other books to do the same. If they don't, then clearly it doesn't mean as much to them.

ian mckellen is on have i got news for you tonight

That program was so funny. Ross Noble is an exceptional comedian, and his impression of Gandalf trying to hide the existence of Gnomes in Middle-earth was excrutiatingly funny. I was in stiches over the thought of Garden Gnomes mounted on Squirrels fighting Orcs. I thought that Ian held his own very well. He certainly put that pipsqueak Ian Hislop in his place. "Touche!", I thought as he remarked "But you were at Cambridge, weren't you?" in response to Hislop's sad quip about his sexuality.

But LotR being firmly in first place and seemingly unshakeable at this stage of the voting? I would never have thought it. What a great result. I only hope that complacency doesn't knock it off the top spot.

Edit: Is it just me, or is Ross Noble burrahobbit? smilies/biggrin.gif

[ November 07, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Eomer of the Rohirrim

11-08-2003, 12:43 PM

Well Saucepan Man, I'm afraid to say that the shame is all my mine, for I have only read a measly FOUR books in the top 21. smilies/frown.gif

Catcher in the Rye, 1984, and Hitchiker's guide are the others. I do think that Brave New World deserves a place, however, and where on earth was Mark Twain? Huck Finn HAS to be there, it just has to be! smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif

Also, I saw Have I Got News For You with Ian McKellan on it and I do think it was one of the funniest episodes for a very long time (entirely down to the two guests and the certifiably insane Paul Merton).

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-08-2003, 12:52 PM

I couldn't get on with Huck Finn. I think I might have tried it too young...but I did manage Great Expectations in year 6!!!

How could I forget Wuthering Heights? I love that book!!!! Heathcliff's mood always reminded me of Túrin for some reason...but hey.

I really wanna see Have I Got News For You, but it's on late and I'm getting up early tomorrow...well not really early...does 7.15 count as early? smilies/rolleyes.gif Well anyhow, it's the biggest lie-in I get. How sad...oh well.

About easter eggs on the EE versions. Am I the only one who's never been able to access them????

Olorin_TLA

11-08-2003, 03:37 PM

7.15 counts as reaaaaly early for a weekend.

When do they repeat Have I got news, btw? (I'm guessing the comedian's the rpesenter this week, not a guest?)

Daisy Brambleburr

11-09-2003, 06:43 AM

Have I Got News for You was on at 10.30 last night. It was a very funny episode, I cracked up when they were talking about garden gnomes being able to beat the orcs in a fight. Paul Merton is hilarious.

They're doing the Lord of the Rings next Saturday at 9! So make sure that you're in. I will be watching.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-09-2003, 07:47 AM

Really? Excellent! About time too... smilies/rolleyes.gif I wonder how much that explorer person will cock it up. When they did that thing introducing the top 21, I couldn't really relate to a word he was saying. But hey. We'll see what he says...

I saw the thing!! I didn't understand the whole 'sexual tension' thing, you know about cruising along and going to Cambridge...anyone care to PM me? smilies/confused.gif

Olorin_TLA

11-09-2003, 10:19 AM

Thnk you, Sky!!! *Grumble grumble...didn't show up when I looked yesterday in TV Guide of SKy...grumble grumble...ROARRRR!!!*

Failivrin

11-09-2003, 03:23 PM

i thought that episode was one of the funniest ever (and i have watched since i was about 13). kelley was great. jimmy carr was pretty boring (shame because he can be funny) but ross noble of course was great and so were merton and hislop. kudos to mckellen for all that stuff about michael howerd!

Essex

11-10-2003, 04:36 AM

I missed most of the bit at the end of hignfy after the credits when Sir Ian did a gandalf bit (couldn't catch what he said) and merton did the old western varmit voice again.

anyone catch that bit and can let me know what they said?

ps re Sir Ian's 'story' on Michael Howard. Hasn't Howard got the most weirdest, annoying voice on this planet? Just listen to how he says 'people' next time you catch him!

Eomer of the Rohirrim

11-10-2003, 04:50 AM

This Saturday? Ah, I must stay in to watch that. Although its just going to infuriate me when I see the clowns in the studio try to dismiss it as rubbish. Still, must watch it so we can discuss it here.

On the Lego Gandalf; "It looks like you're eating a seal!"

smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

Eurytus

11-10-2003, 07:25 AM

I find the issue of the BBC’s Great Read to be a bit bemusing. In particular I find it interesting that people take great exception to critics of the LOTR, especially ones who seem to either have not read it or consider it to be immature.
All well and good you might think but I find it somewhat confusing that those same people have absolutely no compunction about cheating on an Internet voting poll to ensure that LOTR wins said vote.
I am honestly bemused by what people want to achieve with this. It seems common to many Tolkien fan sites. Given that you are supposed to vote for your favourite book what does it say when you feel the need to vote for it twice, or three times or twenty. If it wins the vote because people do this what does it prove (beyond the fact that LOTR attracts far more geeks than do the other entrants)?
If someone decided they were a mega-fan of Birdsong and therefore spend a month solidly voting for it, until it won by a large margin would it make that book the nation’s favourite? Would it make it the best?

What is the point in rigging the vote?

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-10-2003, 12:54 PM

Good point, Eurytus...but one person voting for Birdsong solidly for a month would not make it win. You can only vote so many times in a week (unless you have access to about 100 computers or something...ok that is waaay too nerdy). It would need more than one person, and maybe that's the point. I'm sure the HP fans are doing the same....well maybe, anyway smilies/rolleyes.gif . I don't know. Anyone care to help me out here?! smilies/tongue.gif

EDIT: Oh yeah, what does bemused mean?

[ November 10, 2003: Message edited by: Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 ]

Daisy Brambleburr

11-10-2003, 02:03 PM

EDIT: Oh yeah, what does bemused mean?

Bemused means confused or dazed. smilies/biggrin.gif

I have only voted for the Lord of the Rings once. I assumed that every one else would do the same, but do you think it's fair that people vote more than once? I think that Eurytus has a fair point.
I also think that it depends on the group of fans as much as anything when it comes to which book they vote for. My mum loves Jane Eyre, but she's not sure yet if she wants to vote for it even once. Lotr fans, on the other hand, are a bit more obsessive (hope that doesn't sound rude) and vote as much as possible. Some people just vote once, and see it as having their say, whilst some people feel the need to vote as much as possible to get their favorite book to win. I'm not sure if this is fair, but it's a bit complicated if you take into account that it's allowed by the website to vote once a week so anyone could do it.
I really hope that made sense. It probably didn't but I hope people get the gist of it smilies/smile.gif Sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't intended.

Okay, I'll leave now.

The Saucepan Man

11-11-2003, 06:05 PM

anyone catch that bit and can let me know what they said?

He said "Morrrdor" with the rolled "r", as the pronounciation in the film has it. smilies/biggrin.gif

I find it somewhat confusing that those same people have absolutely no compunction about cheating on an Internet voting poll to ensure that LOTR wins said vote.

Well, voting once per week (as I have been doing) cannot be cheating, since the BBC's own rules allow that. Of course, there are people voting for the book more than once per week, but this is unavoidable, whatever "sophisticated systems" the BBC has in place.

As I have said, however, I doubt that this will have a significant effect on the result. The books are on a level playing field (in that people can vote for any of them more than once). And each one of the books will have its "hardcore" fans who want to see their favourite do well in the poll. To the extent that this does favour LotR, it will be because the book has a larger fanbase, and because it has made a stronger impression on those who regard it as their favourite book (such that they are keener to see it do well than the fans of the others on the list).

The purpose of the poll is to find the nation's favourite book (not the "best" book, for that is impossible to assess objectively). And if LotR does win, this will mean that it is, at this point in time, the nation's favourite book, in terms of the number of people who regard it as their favourite and (to the extent that multiple voting does have any material effect) the depth of feeling it stirs in them.

Eurytus

11-12-2003, 04:23 AM

Sorry but I totally disagree with this. To suggest that Birdsong would have a “hard core” of fans who would vote for each multiple times in the same way as LOTR is not realistic. The only book in the list that may have a similar cross-section of fans and which might encourage multiple voting is Harry Potter.

LOTR will encourage geek voting in the same way as Star Wars would in any movie poll. Does anyone realistically think that Star Wars is the best movie ever made? And yet it often wins these polls.

Like it or not, LOTR attracts the sort of hard-core geeks who will rig the vote. You only have to peruse Tolkien sites to see this. Every time there is any vote certain sites effectively issue a call to arms. “Come on Tolkien fans we can’t have Harry Potter win this vote” etc etc.

And if LotR does win, this will mean that it is, at this point in time, the nation's favourite book, in terms of the number of people who regard it as their favourite

You cannot say that it is the favourite in terms of number of people who regard it as their favourite if multiple voting is allowed. Sorry but the poll will show nothing beyond the ludicrous lengths LOTR fans will go to in order to ensure their ‘baby’ wins.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

11-12-2003, 05:14 AM

The 'geek' stereotype. Harsh and unfair.

What is a 'geek' anyway?

Luinadar

11-12-2003, 05:39 AM

Eurytus:"Does anyone realistically think that Star Wars is the best movie ever made?"

Sure, why not? Or is that too geeky and uncool for you, Eury?

Eurytus"LOTR attracts the sort of hard-core geeks who will rig the vote. You only have to peruse Tolkien sites to see this"

annnd? Beyond the elementary, whats your point? Its not really that important, and a somewhat unusually serious stance to take from someone who quotes Lionel Hutz in their sig
"You cannot say that it is the favourite in terms of number of people who regard it as their favourite if multiple voting is allowed"
So what? Its only a bit of fun man, a rough guide, a general yardstick to guage opinion, it was obviously never going to be anything more than that was it now? smilies/wink.gif

Eurytus

11-12-2003, 06:27 AM

Eurytus:"Does anyone realistically think that Star Wars is the best movie ever made?"
Sure, why not? Or is that too geeky and uncool for you, Eury?

Why not? Well because the story is pretty basic. The acting is mostly subpar. The directing is functional at best. In fact in only 2 areas does it really stand out. The music and the Special Effects.

But to call it the best of all time? Ludicrous. Whilst it may be some peoples favourite movie, favourite is not necessarily best.

Eurytus"LOTR attracts the sort of hard-core geeks who will rig the vote. You only have to peruse Tolkien sites to see this"
annnd? Beyond the elementary, whats your point? Its not really that important, and a somewhat unusually serious stance to take from someone who quotes Lionel Hutz in their sig

The Lionel Hutz quote is not really a total summation of my character you know….

"You cannot say that it is the favourite in terms of number of people who regard it as their favourite if multiple voting is allowed"
So what? Its only a bit of fun man, a rough guide, a general yardstick to guage opinion, it was obviously never going to be anything more than that was it now

And yet why is it so necessary that LOTR wins? Why do so many feel such an urgent call to arms whenever LOTR or Tolkien features in a poll? Playing a game of my book is better than your book is nothing more than fun I guess. But if you feel the need to cheat to ensure victory?
Well nothing more needs to be said does it?

Eurytus

11-12-2003, 06:28 AM

The 'geek' stereotype. Harsh and unfair.
What is a 'geek' anyway?

I would probably describe a geek as being the sort of person who feels the need to send out a call to arms each time something Tolkien is featured in a poll. Who feels threatened that LOTR could be bested. Who feels it necessary to call all Tolkien fans to arms to ensure it does not happen. Who in fact urges multiple voting to completely erase any chance of failure.
But if people feel that LOTR losing any such poll would impinge on their life and therefore such actions are necessary then so be it. What a pity people don’t feel equally motivated about things that really matter though.

Mariska Greenleaf

11-12-2003, 06:52 AM

Here in Belgium we had an election for "The best book of the year" a couple of weeks ago. It was organized by a weekly magazine and there was no restriction whatsoever, any book could be voted for.
The Lord of the Rings won, with an immense number of votes before the others!

sorry for going off topic...

[ November 12, 2003: Message edited by: Mariska Greenleaf ]

The Saucepan Man

11-12-2003, 08:31 AM

Does anyone realistically think that Star Wars is the best movie ever made?

No, but your analogy doesn't work, as the purpose of this poll is not to find the "best" book ever written (an impossible task, as I said earlier), but Britain's favourite book at this point in time.

Whilst it may be some peoples favourite movie, favourite is not necessarily best.

Precisely. It would not suprise me at all to find that Star Wars (the original, that is) was one of this nation's favourite films.

Incidentally, I do think that there is, or can be, a link between popularity and quality (as your use of the word "necessarily" suggests). Quality tends to elicit popularity, but it doesn't always follow and there are many other factors involved.

To suggest that Birdsong would have a “hard core” of fans who would vote for each multiple times in the same way as LOTR is not realistic.

Of course I am not suggesting that there are websites devoted to Birdsong where fans implore each other to vote for it as many times as possible. But I am sure that a good number of those who regard it as their favourite book have voted for it more than once, and are perhaps doing so on a weekly basis, for that is what the BBC's rules allow, and that is what the BBC keeps telling us we can do. The same applies to any other book in the top 21.

As for mass multiple voting, I do think that you are being unduly harsh about LotR fans. First I would point out that those who are voting so many times are doing so because they love the book so much (which is hardly a terrible motive) and there really are a lot worse ways that they could be "cheating" (as you put it) in life. But, in any event, I really do not believe that there is a significant amount of this going on, certainly not significant enough to affect the result.

I agree that, if there were, then the outcome of the poll would have little meaning. But I really think that the numbers involved here (in relative terms) are insufficient to make any significant impact on the result. Accordingly, I still think that we can regard whatever book tops the poll as Britain's favourite book.

Luinadar

11-12-2003, 09:02 AM

Eurytus:
"But to call it the best of all time? Ludicrous. Whilst it may be some peoples favourite movie, favourite is not necessarily best."
'Ludicrous' why? Because an auditor like you says so? Then what is 'best' to be defined as then? One persons Ben Hur is another persons cheese-fest, there is no real answer and you know it. Its very easy to condescend and criticise without offering your own choices up for analysis Eury.
Why are you so worked up at the few overexuberant Tolkienites who get a bit passionate about the voting, its a pity you don’t feel equally motivated about things that really matter though too.

"And yet why is it so necessary that LOTR wins? "

Never said it was.

Eurytus

11-12-2003, 09:45 AM

'Ludicrous' why? Because an auditor like you says so?
The fact that this is the second time you have decided to use personal information about me to try and conduct your argument is puerile and sad beyond belief and hence this discussion is at an end.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-12-2003, 03:00 PM

???? This is getting beyond me...puerile? ??? And how does that close the discussion? Sorry, never covered debating in school. Sad but tue.

What a pity people don’t feel equally motivated about things that really matter though. Says who?? However much I may agree with your other points and to whatever degree, I do think that is taking a stereotype waaay too far. Tolkien fans by no means spend all their time with their noses in the books (ooh, interesting mental image smilies/rolleyes.gif ), learning Elvish, watching the films however zillion times...well I don't anyway...I have a greater appreciation of what is going on in this country and around the world than most people my age I know. Not that's saying much or anything...
But oh yeah...the discussion was apparently closed. So never mind...

Eurytus

11-13-2003, 03:23 AM

???? This is getting beyond me...puerile? ??? And how does that close the discussion? Sorry, never covered debating in school. Sad but tue.
You might like to read the thread again and then realise two things;

1. Yes, using personal information to try and beat someone is a debate is puerile.

2. I never said the entire debate was closed, I said any debate with people who do the above is closed.

I shouldn't think one would need to go to debating school to realise this.

Luinadar

11-13-2003, 03:46 AM

Eurytus: 'Personal information'? Get real, if your info is so personal dont broadcast it all over the Web, doh! You are so very keen to diss and steriotype other people completely out of hand in this thread, yet are strangely unable to take a bit of lighthearted banter upon yourself! Says it all really.

Eurytus

11-13-2003, 04:02 AM

"Diss"?

What has Ali G just entered the thread or something?

And there is no need to stereotype fans who feel the need to cheat to ensure that Tolkien wins in a book poll. They achieve that themselves.

The Saucepan Man

11-13-2003, 07:23 AM

OK, Luinadar and Eurytus, calm down. Please keep on topic and take any personal disagreements elsewhere before you get this thread shut down. smilies/rolleyes.gif

Estelyn Telcontar

11-13-2003, 09:42 AM

I hope I don't need to close this thread to give the two above antagonists time to cool off - please resolve your differences by PM. All off-topic posts here will be deleted - preferably by yourselves, but if necessary by a moderator or administrator.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

11-13-2003, 10:17 AM

Eurytus, I'm not sure I agree that the so called second example of personal information was really so. What needs to be established is why the argument for StarWars was ludicrous. Surely it cannot be just because one person (in this case yourself) says so.

Explain why it is ludicrous without resorting to your own private prejudice. (I realise you did this earlier, using examples such as quality of acting, etc, but this proved inconclusive.)

Failivrin

11-13-2003, 02:57 PM

i hardly think that several Tolkien fans voting over and over again is going to affect the outcome of this poll. i personally am pretty sure that LOTR will win and would have won without the obsessive voting. we must not forget that it has constantly topped polls for over 40 years. to get worked up about such a thing is insulting to those who do it, just as it would be insulting to say that those who only voted once hate it. this is not a matter of life and death.

Eurytus

11-14-2003, 04:58 AM

Explain why it is ludicrous without resorting to your own private prejudice. (I realise you did this earlier, using examples such as quality of acting, etc, but this proved inconclusive.)

You found it inconclusive, I personally don't.
By any standard you like the acting in Star Wars is subpar. It certainly can't be described as worthy of merit. Of the three leads only one, Harrison Ford, is any sort of actor. As their subsequent careers amply proved.
Some of the dialogue is shocking.
The directing is functional.
The storyline is very basic indeed, practically a fairy tale.

Now none of those things in isolation might prevent it from being the best film of all time but can any film suffer all these flaws and still be the best film of all time?

Better than the Seven Samurai?
Better than the Godfather?
Better than The Shawshank Redemption?

For me the answer is no to all those. And I could add many more.

I mean take the FOTR.
Is the acting better than Star Wars? Yes.
Is the dialogue better? Yes
Is the story better? Yes
Is the directing better? Yes

I yet I could almost guarantee which of the two would top a "best of" poll.

The Saucepan Man

11-14-2003, 07:32 AM

Pardon me for being all grouchy again, but the Star Wars discussion is off topic on two grounds. First, it doesn't concern LotR. And secondly, the purpose of the Big Read, as I have already pointed out, is to find Britain's favourite book, not the best book ever written. Relative popularity can be determined on an objective basis with reasonable ease. Relative quality cannot. There is no truly objective answer to the question: "Is Star Wars the best film ever made?", as it is a matter of opinion.

So let's get back to the discussion of LotR and the Big Read.

i hardly think that several Tolkien fans voting over and over again is going to affect the outcome of this poll.

I thoroughly agree, Failivrin.

we must not forget that it has constantly topped polls for over 40 years.

Good point, although there is no guarantee that it will continue to do so. Mind you, I would say that the longer it stays at the top of the poularity chart, the more we can, I think, begin legitimately to draw conclusions from this as to its quality.

Estelyn Telcontar

11-14-2003, 07:54 AM

There's a third reason, Saucy - 'Star Wars' is a movie, not a book... smilies/tongue.gif

Eurytus

11-14-2003, 08:46 AM

OK, so everyone here would seemingly be perfectly happy to accept Birdsong winning if a hardcore of its fans decided to multiply vote.

You'd cheerfully accept the fact that it would now be Britain's favourite book, right?

Eurytus

11-14-2003, 08:52 AM

There is no truly objective answer to the question: "Is Star Wars the best film ever made?", as it is a matter of opinion.
I disagree. Art may be subjective to an extent but we can still ascribe levels of perfection to it.

Is the roof of the Sistine chapel a work of art greater than Tracey Emin's messed up bed?
I (and about 99% of humanity) would agree.

Was Mozart a greater composer than Andrew Lloyd Webber?
Again I think the overwhelming majority would find him to be.

Is the Lord of the Rings a BETTER book than The Sword of Shannara?
Again 99% yes I would think.

Can other films be quantified as better than Star Wars?
Again yes.

Mariska Greenleaf

11-14-2003, 09:25 AM

Art may be subjective to an extent but we can still ascribe levels of perfection to it.

I do not agree that art is subjective to an extent, I believe art just IS subjective whatsoever. Levels of perfection can be given according to certain techniques that have been used or maybe to a level of difficulty that is reached, or even to the value of a work af art (but then I mean simply the price of the piece).
But saying that Mozart IS a greater composer than Webber, no, you simply can't, that is no fact. It is your opinion and that's fine (I also like Mozart better), but it's impossible to measure.

A little more on topic, I've already mentioned the fact that LOTR is Belgium's favourite book, but what does that mean? That it's the best? Impossible to say! I think people are very much influenced by the popularity of the movies and therefor more likely to vote for the LOTR book in polls like that.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

11-14-2003, 09:33 AM

Is there a special reason why Birdsong doesn't deserve to be voted Britain's favourite book? All of the books are competing under the same criteria before the same audience. I'm just going to be grateful that nothing by a professional footballer made it into the final list.

[ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

Eurytus

11-14-2003, 09:36 AM

But saying that Mozart IS a greater composer than Webber, no, you simply can't, that is no fact. It is your opinion and that's fine (I also like Mozart better), but it's impossible to measure.
So when Haydn stated to Mozart that he was the greatest composer known to him, he was wrong?

I will always believe that art can be quantified.

Mariska Greenleaf

11-14-2003, 09:44 AM

So when Haydn stated to Mozart that he was the greatest composer known to him, he was wrong?

He wasn't wrong, nor was he right. He was expressing his personal opinion.

Failivrin

11-14-2003, 02:53 PM

if birdsong had a hardcore of voters larger than LOTR, although i would be unhappy with the result (because of my bias towards LOTR) i would accept it. the only thing i would not accept would be if a straight copy of LOTR or any other of the top 21 had been included and that had triumphed over the original, but that has not happened.

Squatter, i also am glad that nothing by david beckham got into the top 21- remember great britons when robbie williams topped Tolkien and CS Lewis?

Eurytus

11-14-2003, 04:28 PM

Squatter, i also am glad that nothing by david beckham got into the top 21- remember great britons when robbie williams topped Tolkien and CS Lewis?

Well given that people have argued here that no piece of art can be considered superior to another then the fact that Robbie Williams beat Tolkein and Lewis should be fine.

Eurytus

11-14-2003, 04:30 PM

if birdsong had a hardcore of voters larger than LOTR, although i would be unhappy with the result (because of my bias towards LOTR) i would accept it.
I was not saying a large hardcore of voters. I meant a smaller but more hardcore set of voters who warp the result my multiple voting.
Would that be acceptable?
And what would it prove?

Meela

11-14-2003, 05:36 PM

I voted for Wuthering Heights since it is one of my favourite books. But since we have one vote a week, I'll throw one to Lotr if you need me to.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-15-2003, 11:30 AM

But I thought Mariska was arguing that art can be ranked?

Is there a special reason why Birdsong doesn't deserve to be voted Britain's favourite book? All of the books are competing under the same criteria before the same audience. I'm just going to be grateful that nothing by a professional footballer made it into the final list. Ditto! I don't mind Birdsong winning, nor Wuthering Heights...I love both of them.
But if Birdsong were to win by those means, it would simply prove that the book brings out extraordinarily obssessive traits in the people it really reaches. (IE more obssessive than LOTR fans smilies/wink.gif ). Because for it to win by those means, that 'small' hardcore would have to vote at least 5 times on every single computer with internet access they came across. Not to mention phoning every week from every phone...cheese man, just the thought of doing all that is exhaustive!

Eomer of the Rohirrim

11-15-2003, 01:05 PM

By golly Eurytus I think I'm about to agree with you for the first time on this forum! smilies/wink.gif

I fully agree that the quality of aesthetic works is not wholly subjective. I wouldn't say that it is objective but it can only be subjective to a certain extent, as subjectivism is such a troubled philosophical theory.

Failivrin

11-15-2003, 03:29 PM

ah dear eurytus; i was merely stating MY opinion that i thought it was a travesty that robbie williams ranked about 41 when Tolkien was 92.

i would be happy for the birdsong voters that they loved a book so much that they voted that much. verily it shows devotion to the book. however, i still want LOTR to win because out of the 21 that is MY favourite. so now i am off to cast my vote for this week.

Daisy Brambleburr

11-16-2003, 05:23 AM

Last night LotR had it's half an hour slot with Ray Mears. Did you watch it, and if so, what did you think?

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-16-2003, 06:38 AM

I did. I also watched the Wuthering Heights one...and Catch-22, which I didn't get.
I was glad when he FINALLY said that Tolkien denied it was about WW2 etc...those shots of Hitler at the Nuremburg (sp?) rallies were beginning to get to me. Although I disagreed when he said the Lord of the Rings was whoever held the Ring...I thought Gandalf had corrected Pippin on this point in Rivendell?
I haven't got round to voting yet. I am glad to see we're still ahead!!! smilies/biggrin.gif
Wuthering Heights is amazing, by the way...if you haven't read it yet, you must!!!

Daisy Brambleburr

11-16-2003, 09:57 AM

I can imagine that it was a very hard job to cover LotR in half an hour. I wouldn't know where to start!

Although I disagreed when he said the Lord of the Rings was whoever held the Ring...I thought Gandalf had corrected Pippin on this point in Rivendell?

That's what I thought. I'm stil not sure why he said that, actually. Anyone care to shed a bit of light?

Did you think that the connection with the countryside was emphasised a bit too much? It seemed to be important to Ray Mears anyway. I wouldn't have chosen to say so much about it, but that's just me. I liked how they had a lot of quotes and readings from the book. It would have been cool to have seen some re-enactments, like in Wuthering Heights, but I'm not sure if that would have worked. I'd have used more images (atrwork, etc) and definatley some shots of the map of Middle Earth.

I thought the Wuthering Heights section was very good. Made me want to read it. Perhaps I will, when I'm done with the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-16-2003, 10:20 AM

Well, the countryside thing would be very important to RM...he is a 'survival expert'!!! I don't know...I understood his point...but he did emphasise it rather a lot...I personally thought it was a shame they didn't use Andy Serkis' voice for Gollum. And my dad thought someone like Christopher Lee should have presented it...although perhaps he is a tad old to go tramping round the countryside... smilies/tongue.gif How old is he now???

the guy who be short

11-16-2003, 03:32 PM

Ah yes, I watched it. I thought it was generally good, better than I was expecting from Ray Mears. The main points I disagreed with tere the above stated "Lord ofthe Ring," and the voice of on Bombadil - he is meant to be jolly!
LotR has remained at the top since the beginning of the voting, and I am now confident of its victory. I enjoyed Ray Mears comparing describing LotR in half an hour to holding a waterfall in his hands - it was so true, there's too much to describe. I also liked how he mentioned "not characters, but entire new civilisations and languages."

By the way, I have noticed the consistent arguing on this thread, and whilst I have my own opinons I am not going to view them. I merely ask you all to stop arguing and make your peace, so we can all enjoy a simple discussion again.

Failivrin

11-16-2003, 04:13 PM

i thought the waterfall analogy was really nice too.

i did think, however that he overemphasised both the connection to nature (though very important) and also FRODO! he constantly talked about frodo the hero but completely shied away from most of the fellowship, not even mentioning their names. i doubt i could have done much better but i would have mentioned aragorn to illustrate how first impressions are not always as they seem and boromir to show exactly HOW the ring corrupts good. his gollum impression was pretty spiffy smilies/biggrin.gif

i htought they wuthering heights one was good too.

The Saucepan Man

11-16-2003, 06:30 PM

To be honest, I thought that Ray Mears did a very good job. Much better than I was expecting. As Daisy said, it is impossible to deal with the merits of LotR in half an hour. There are so many themes to address, and so he chose that which means most to him and emphasised the connection with nature. There are themes in the book which mean more to me, but that is certainly one of the main themes and I can understand why he chose to emphasise it.

For similar reasons, I can understand why he concentrated on Frodo, his journey and his struggle with the Ring. After all, that is the central story, and there was not time to address all the related sub-plots. I did notice the absence of Aragorn, but it would, I think, have detracted from what he did say to have tried to cover Aragorn's story too, not to mention the many other characters that had no mention.

Although I disagreed when he said the Lord of the Rings was whoever held the Ring...

Yes, like the rest of you, I noticed that. But I wouldn't have noticed it had it not been for a discussion of the point on this very forum some months back. So I don't see it as a major criticism.

I was glad when he FINALLY said that Tolkien denied it was about WW2 etc...those shots of Hitler at the Nuremburg (sp?) rallies were beginning to get to me.

Again, I had much the same reaction, Elentári. But I think that this was more a problem with the programme-makers choosing these shots to trail the piece. Thankfully, Mears made the point that Tolkien denied any allegory with WW2, and also that WW1 probably had much more of an influence on Tolkien's writings. This, and some of the other things that he said, did reassure me that he does have an appreciation of Tolkien's works that derives from more than just reading LotR.

One excellent point which I thought that he made was that this is a book which cries out to be read, making the comparison in this regard with ancient epics. So, on this basis, I think that he was right to read extracts from it himself (and he did do a fairly good Gollum voice smilies/biggrin.gif ). Personally, I would not have chosen to recite a verse of Tom Bombadil's poetry if I was trying to persuade people to read the book, but maybe that's just me.

I do wonder, however, how much a piece like this will persuade people to read the book if they have not already read it. It appears that, from what the librarian they had on was saying, the whole Big Read thing has prompted people to read the books on the list (and LotR particularly so, it would seem). But I wonder if Ray Mears himself will have had much effect in this regard.

Personally, I have not been persuaded by anything that I have seen to read any of the books on the shortlist (or even in the top 100) that I have not already read. Although Alastair McGowan's excellent piece on Wuthering Heights has persuaded me that I ought to read it again. But then, it is already in my top 10.

Nevertheless, it does seem that the Big Read has had an effect in persuading people to read more books. Which can only be a good thing.

[ November 16, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Eomer of the Rohirrim

11-17-2003, 05:48 AM

I'm not sure about Ray Mears' Russian accent for Gollum. And I didn't like how he called the Ents 'trees'. But other than that he did alright. Lets be honest, it was a pretty hard task for the guy.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-17-2003, 11:59 AM

Argh, that sing-song Tom Bombadil! I was cringing for the guy...just think about it, such ridiculous lyrics, and singing them... smilies/eek.gif

And what exactly would you classify the Ents as? I thought they were spirits embedded in the trees, and so walking talking trees sounds like a pretty good definition to me...
smilies/rolleyes.gif Pray enlighten me!!!

Daisy Brambleburr

11-17-2003, 01:37 PM

I liked his waterfall analogy as well. Very appropriate. And his Gollum voice was good smilies/smile.gif I must say I was a little confused about his choice to include Tom Bombadil, it seemed a little random when he didn't say anything about Aragorn or the rest of the Fellowship. But I liked the way he spoke about Gandalf, 'he's like everyone's favorite uncle', or something similar.

Elentari, Christopher Lee is 81. I'd never have guessed myself, I was very surprised when I heard.

The Saucepan Man

11-17-2003, 06:56 PM

Linda Smith (her of the "Big Read" TV panel) was on Room 101 (a UK comedy programme) tonight. Once again, she took the opportunity to bash LotR, labelling it as a book that only "engineering students called Dave read" and describing it as absolute rubbish. She certainly displays a complete lack of any understanding of the book, and so one can only assume that she has never read it. In which case, she only makes herself look rather silly by describing a book that she has never read as absolute rubbish.

But, given that this is the second time in the space of a month that she has gone out of the way to rubbish the book on television, I do wonder whether she has some personal reason for disliking it so much. Perhaps she was attacked by a rare first edition in her childhood. smilies/biggrin.gif

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-19-2003, 10:57 AM

Yeah, Saucy, I expect you're right....

Wow! I didn't realise he was that old!!!!!!!! smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif Fancy being able to act at that age...

Engineering students called Dave.
Right.
Hands up if that describes you!!!!!!
(Well that isn't me for one...I'm a girl, and I don't study engineering!)

Daisy Brambleburr

11-19-2003, 01:56 PM

I'd bet that the woman who rubbishes LotR basically doesn't understand it. My mum sometimes does stuff like that, she says 'what I don't understand is why they can't just *hide* the Ring, or throw it in the bin or something'. But this woman probably hasn't read it, fantasy isn't her thing and she can't comprehend the hype that surrounds it, so she insults it, which is the wrong thing to do. If you're determind to hate a book, at least read it first! Maybe she thinks she's being funny or something...

ElentariGreenleaf

11-19-2003, 04:08 PM

*sigh* I always seem to miss LotR things on the tv... I'm either out, didn't hear about it or it's on sky. It so happened that when the Big Read was on I was online posting on LotR forums. Oh well... it couldn't have been that good to watch... could it?

The Saucepan Man

11-20-2003, 12:46 PM

Linda Smith is on "QI" on BBC2 tonight (actually a rather good programme). If she takes the opportunity yet again to rubbish LotR, we'll know she's obsessed. smilies/biggrin.gif

the guy who be short

11-20-2003, 12:47 PM

Well, I am an engineering student, but my name is David, not Dave. Idiot woman. smilies/biggrin.gif

Has anybody noticed how LotR has stayed first over all the weeks of the Big Read? Opinions on why?

Daisy Brambleburr

11-20-2003, 01:38 PM

I guess that LotR is staying top because a)It's a wholly brilliant book, b) the fans who enjoy it love it wholeheartedly and are persistant enough to vote every week and c) the movies may have something to do with it as well smilies/smile.gif
Well, I am an engineering student, but my name is David, not Dave. Idiot woman. smilies/biggrin.gif lol

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-22-2003, 08:03 AM

Ah well, close enough, guy who be short!!!

So, did you watch that thing on BBC2? I didn't, having only just found out about it...Did she rubbish it again?
Did everyone watch the rugby?! smilies/wink.gif smilies/rolleyes.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

Meela

11-22-2003, 11:21 AM

I can't vote yet smilies/frown.gif I voted about 10 times last week for WH, now I have to wait.

I haven't been watching the programs, just the adverts for them.

I didn't see the rugby, but I did cry. I'm on the Aussie side. I was heck of a disappointed when I heard they lost. But I did read some amusing jokes in the paper.

ElentariGreenleaf

11-22-2003, 11:37 AM

I know this isn't about the big read (which I guess is the main topic of this thread) But.... On the Radio 1 breakfast show on monday (perhaps all week too) there's a chance to win tickets to the world premier of RotK, which is in new zealand! I wish I didn't have school, then I'd try to win!

dragoneyes

11-22-2003, 11:37 AM

given that this is the second time in the space of a month

That was the SECOND time? I was really annoyed when she said that. BUT, she resisted it on QI. Thank goodness she wasn't there when they were talking about 'Steve Peregrin Took' from T-Rex.

Bêthberry

11-22-2003, 12:19 PM

She certainly displays a complete lack of any understanding of the book, and so one can only assume that she has never read it. In which case, she only makes herself look rather silly by describing a book that she has never read as absolute rubbish.

But, given that this is the second time in the space of a month that she has gone out of the way to rubbish the book on television, I do wonder whether she has some personal reason for disliking it so much. Perhaps she was attacked by a rare first edition in her childhood. <http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/smilies/biggrin.gif>

I don't know, Sauce, in my years teaching university I was given many a paper which suggested the writers had never read the book. smilies/eek.gif smilies/tongue.gif

I think it's all a rather clever marketing ploy, likely for the movie. You know, bad publicity is better than no publicity at all. Baiting fans and all to get a reaction. etc. etc. smilies/rolleyes.gif smilies/wink.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[ November 22, 2003: Message edited by: Bêthberry ]

Failivrin

11-22-2003, 03:15 PM

i didn't watch the rugby, despite my year head imploring me to in assembly.

Everdawn

11-22-2003, 09:11 PM

I didn't see the rugby, but I did cry. I'm on the Aussie side. I was heck of a disappointed when I heard they lost.

I cried. My whole house was silent for about an hour after the whistle blew, no one could speak. Anyhow,

Congratz to the Brits!

Take Bill and keep him safe, (by Bill i mean the trophy) We will see you in France 2007.

Sharkû

11-23-2003, 04:34 AM

Off topic, a horse's hair away from getting closed.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-23-2003, 07:54 AM

Oops...and don't congratulate the Brits, only England wanted England to win!

Back on topic...I really have to get round to voting again for this week...
How many people here actually vote more than once a week?

Meela

11-23-2003, 07:55 AM

I've tried, but it doesn't let me.

I just went to the site and I was allowed to vote again. I got 5 votes in before it stopped me.

[ November 23, 2003: Message edited by: Meela ]

Daisy Brambleburr

11-23-2003, 09:04 AM

Back on topic...I really have to get round to voting again for this week...
How many people here actually vote more than once a week?

I think that you can only vote one time a week, so that's what I do. I'm afraid to say that my loyalties are somewhat split, I've voted for LotR one or two times, but I've also voted for the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy quite a lot. I want both of them to win! LotR is 1st (still) but Hitchhikers is creeping up to third place. It'd be great if my two favorite books were 1st and 2nd (with Winnie the Pooh third).
Quick comment on the show yesterday, Alan Titschmarsh made me really want to read Rebecca. It looks like a very creepy book.

The Saucepan Man

11-23-2003, 01:10 PM

Did everyone watch the rugby?!

I'll let my sig speak for itself. smilies/biggrin.gif (sorry Sharkû)

BUT, she resisted it on QI.

She wouldn't have dared say anything with Bill Baily there. I undersatnd that he is half-Hobbit. smilies/biggrin.gif

I think it's all a rather clever marketing ploy, likely for the movie.

I suspect not, Bb, given that the programmes in question are not exactly ones with mass appeal. Alas, I feel that Linda Smith's vitriol is genuine (if wholly misplaced). smilies/frown.gif smilies/wink.gif

How many people here actually vote more than once a week?

Being the law-abiding person that I am, I am sticking to voting once per week. smilies/wink.gif

I'm afraid to say that my loyalties are somewhat split, I've voted for LotR one or two times, but I've also voted for the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy quite a lot.

But you are supposed to be voting for your favourite book. Does this mean that they are your equal favourites? I suppose that there is nothing wrong with voting for your favourite books. Perhaps I should put in a few votes for Hitchhiker's Guide and Wuthering Heights. Then again, LotR is my clear favourite, so I think that I will stick to voting for it alone.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-23-2003, 01:46 PM

Yeah Saucy...I was going to remind you about your sig, because when I posted here earlier today, it still said England v Australia!!! Great match, wasn't it...

I'm not a very law-abiding citizen...I vote for it as many times as the computer will let me... smilies/evil.gif (about 5). I would vote for Wuthering Heights...but...I like LOTR more! But still, WH is amazing...oh I don't know! I couldn't stand Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy...I never finished it...I got to the point where the plane is waiting for lemon handkerchiefs to arrive or something...just after someone has gone into this place which shows how small you are in relation to the rest of the universe. Ok, did that make any sense? Probably I'm totally confused, but never mind.

Daisy Brambleburr

11-24-2003, 02:03 PM

But you are supposed to be voting for your favourite book. Does this mean that they are your equal favourites? I suppose that there is nothing wrong with voting for your favourite books. Perhaps I should put in a few votes for Hitchhiker's Guide and Wuthering Heights. Then again, LotR is my clear favourite, so I think that I will stick to voting for it alone.

*Sheepish grin* yeah I know it's supposed to be your favorite book, but I really can't make up my mind. If I didn't put a few votes in for Hitchhikers I would feel terribly guilty. smilies/smile.gif

[ November 24, 2003: Message edited by: Daisy Brambleburr ]

the guy who be short

11-29-2003, 09:14 AM

Harry Potter gets its slot tonight. I hope this doesn't amount to anything.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

11-29-2003, 09:31 AM

Yeah...I read some review on the Big Read, and it said the only decent slot was the one on Little Women. smilies/rolleyes.gif I like that book! But yeah, I don't think that'll be much of a threat. The reviewer didn't think HP would make many people vote because it would not awake a sense of nostalgia in adults. Or something. And also, a lot of the HP fans are fairly young...how many of them are going to stay up to watch this?

Nienna, sister of Feanturi

11-29-2003, 04:17 PM

I got really annoyed watching 'The Big Read.' Most of those 'experts' in the discussion room obviously didn't have a clue what they were talking about. They all had a huge downer on Harry Potter simply because it was popular. One man admitted he had only read the first page, and then went on to say JK Rowling couldn't write to save her life- how does he kow if he hasn't read it properly? There was that irritating man saying airily about lotr "oh, it's not very profound" The thing about lotr is it creates it's own world- and the reader only gets out from it what it puts in. That's why it can mean so many different things to different people. Unlike a lot of writers Tolkien doesn't force feed his beliefs down the reader's throats. Speaking of which did anyone notice that CS Lewis' books were criticised for having a christian agenda, whereas Pullman's trilogy 'promoted an atheist view of the world.'? If Lewis was trying to infuence the reader to his point of view so was Pullman. Don't you hate it when people have double standards, like that?

Daisy Brambleburr

11-30-2003, 05:40 AM

The panel did annoy me a lot, as I've already said. Surely you can't have much of an opinion on a book if you haven't actually read it?

And also, a lot of the HP fans are fairly young...how many of them are going to stay up to watch this?

The show was put on earlier than usual. Unfortunatey, this made me miss most of Harry Potter before I realised. I didn't watch Wind in the Willows (never really liked that book) but I didn watch the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. I think they did a good job, but what was with the freaky puppets? Have I missed something?

And LotR was still in the lead, with Pride and Prejudice second.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

12-03-2003, 11:33 AM

You get double standards in quite a lot of things though...why on earth was it shown earlier? It can't have been simply for HP fans! I like HP too, though the hype here has been absolutely crazy...and I still thought the third one was the best. Which was on the list?
Hey, at least we're still in the lead! How long left?

dragoneyes

12-13-2003, 04:56 PM

May I be the first to say: Go Lord of the Rings! Even though there were certain less than friendly comments aimed at it right up until the end (I'm looking at the man on the His Dark Materials pannel).

My aunt really didn't agree with the outcome though and I must say it probably wasn't all that fair. Meh, I'm still happy we won.

ElentariGreenleaf

12-13-2003, 05:45 PM

Woo! LotR won! I can't believe Pride and Predjudice came second... I know it's a good book and all, but come on! Some of the others deserved 2nd more.

Me and mum only voted to make sure LotR beat P&P

The Saucepan Man

12-13-2003, 06:46 PM

It seemed to be a fairly foregone conclusion from an early stage, but well done Lord of the Rings. smilies/smile.gif

Final result:

1. The Lord of the Rings
2. Pride and Prejudice
3. His Dark Materials
4. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
5. Harry Potter

Personally I thought that it was a great shame that LotR seemed to generate so much antipathy amongst the "literati" on the panels and in the audience. Of the main panel, I felt that they were struggling to say something good about it (which was not the case with the other books in the top 5), and Bonnie whatsername even admitted that she had not read it all the way through. And it seemed that the supporters of most of the other books in the top 5 were all simply trying to argue that their favourite book deserved to win because it is better than LotR.

I found the boos and the snide comments (many of them from Clive Anderson, who was supposed to be the impartial host) rather pathetic. They were just annoyed because they felt that some so-called "great work of literature" (ie Pride and Prejudice) deserved to win rather than a "mere fantasy book". Well, sorry folks, but this was all about Britain's favourite book, not the greatest work of literature judged by some crusty old academic standard.

This whole stereotypical view of LotR as a "boy's book" for adolescent geeks fixated on Dungeons & Dragons is becoming such old hat, and yet still they pump it out. I may be wrong, but I suspect that there are at least as many female members of the Downs as males, if not more.

And I just don't buy this argument that LotR only won because of the films and repeat votes from young internet users. If such factors really counted, then Harry Potter wouldn't have been (quite rightly, in my view) beaten into 6th place by the Hitchhiker's Guide. And, as has been said previously on this thread (and was pointed out in the programme itself), LotR has consistently topped these kinds of polls, and was doing so way before the films came out.

Kudos to Simon Tolkien for his warm comments about his grandfather and for putting down the perpetrators of the snide comments and the gripers with a great quote from the great man himself. smilies/cool.gif

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:48 PM December 13, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Olorin_TLA

12-13-2003, 06:53 PM

Frodo won!

There were the others sniping away all program long, but the Tolkienites rose above it, just like Frodo would.

Oh, and we won! smilies/biggrin.gif

Luthien_ Tinuviel

12-13-2003, 07:15 PM

All I can say is: Yay! I didn't think it right for me to vote, as I'm not British, but I have been interested as to the results. And now that they're in, I'm very pleased that LOTR has tooped yet another poll. It amazes me how people can think that it's "poor escapist literature", and some think it hardly worthy to call literature. At least the people like it!

I may be wrong, but I suspect that there are at least as many female members of the Downs as males, if not more.

I've wondered about this myself. I think there might actually be more female members than there are males, completely vanquishing the "boy's book" streotype that I used to encounter.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

12-13-2003, 09:31 PM

You can't help but agree with Simon Tolkien's comments: although I think that The Lord of the Rings stands up just as well to the crusty academic standards as other works of the twentieth century, it would, I'm sure, be the huge public response that would have mattered to its author rather than the attitude of the self-appointed literati. After all, judging by his letters, he knew a lot more about English language and literature than most of his critics, for whom he had little regard. That boy's own image was voiced by Edwin Muir in the Observer in 1955, and Tolkien was as scornful of it then as he would be today: "Blast Edwin Muir and his delayed adolescence. He is old enough to know better. It might do him good to know what women think of his 'knowing about women', especially as a test of being mentally adult. If he had an M.A. I should nominate him for the professorship of poetry - a sweet revenge." I wonder how those panelists would feel if they were to read that their opinions had been ridiculed by the author half a century ago. It certainly doesn't say much for their originality. Or perhaps Edwin Muir is now accepted as an academic authority, despite his lack of a higher degree.

I, too, noticed how many of the proponents of the other books complained about the preponderance of fantasy in the top five, but particularly singled out The Lord of the Rings for criticism. Clearly the hope was that Pride and Prejudice, the only set A-level text in the top five, would win (and I agreed with everything that was said about that book, which I would have been happy to see voted number one). I thought that Bill Oddie's attitude was particularly bizarre, bearing in mind that his chosen book was The Wind in the Willows; a novel in which a talking toad becomes a keen motorist and a mole and a water-rat go boating together (also another favourite of mine).

By and large I was happy. I've read three of the top five books, and I've enjoyed all of them. I've heard good things about the other two, but I do think it was a shame that a lot of really great books didn't reach the final rounds. However, as a wise man once said "In the end, there can be only one". People should realise that, as Saucepan says, it was a test of popularity, not of literary merit; so nobody should be surprised if the traditionally accepted classics don't make it. I think that the critics underestimate The Lord of the Rings, but with the winning of this poll a lot more people will discover the book. One day someone may be forced to look at it and ask just why it is that it wins so many popularity polls, and why so many educated and intelligent people are reading and re-reading it despite what the critics say. At the moment the popularity of the films provides ammunition with which to shoot this win down as simple hysteria, but as was mentioned on television, the book won a lot of popularity contests long before the films were released.

Does the result of the poll really change anything, though? The book remains critically unacceptable and popular with the people who really matter to publishers, the reading public. It remains imperfectly understood by its opponents and perhaps too fondly regarded by its devotees. Frankly I was watching The Big Read to see the sneerers get what they knew was coming (and which no doubt only inflamed their spleen). I can see the point: arguing a lost case against a work in which one sees no merit at all can be a soul-destroying task. That's not Tolkien's fault, however. All he did was write the book: he never claimed that it was the best ever, but a lot of people seem to think it was. How sad that the people organising the supposedly democratic poll felt the need to attack and belittle it just because it wasn't what they thought the public ought to be reading. I'm not sure about the multiple and overseas votes: they did skew the demographics, but every book had the same opportunity, and I doubt they let the same person vote twice over the phone. If they did, then more fool them. I would have run it on a one-person, one-vote system, but I wasn't in charge.

Daisy Brambleburr

12-14-2003, 08:30 AM

It was nice to see LotR slapping the faces of all the cynics there *coughcliveandersoncough*
I do think that the movies had a little something to do with it winning, not in a bad way, but they made a lot of people discover the books and gave them a heck of a lot of publicity. Perhaps if the poll had been done before the movies had been released LotR might have been closer to Pride and Prejudice. I don't know.
Was it just me, or did I sense an overall feeling of dislike for LotR throughout the show? The host certainly didn't like it too much, and everyone seemed to be subtly digging at it. Do they not want to like it simply because it's popular? Everyone seemed to be very into Pride and Prejudice and Phillip Pullman.

the guy who be short

12-14-2003, 09:35 AM

I noticed that nearly everybody there insulted LotR, and very blatantly too. It was a shame, because I love all the other books in the top five (except P&P which I haven't yet read). But we won!

dragoneyes

12-14-2003, 10:22 AM

I was very happy to hear some people in the audience booing when Lord of the Rings was insulted. I was just as annoyed with my aunt who was watching it with me though "It's a good yarn but there's just not enough characterisation." I nearly exploded when she said that but she was sufficiently annoyed when LotR beat P&P that I could sit and smile smugly.

Do they not want to like it simply because it's popular?
That's what I think because I used to be like that. I obviously overcame it though otherwise I wouldn't be here would I?

Failivrin

12-14-2003, 11:03 AM

oh i was SO happy when it won! i noticed that practically everyone insulted it and (silly me) i actually cried when sue townsend did. it was just everyone insulting it and all i could think was that Tolkien was cleverer than probably everyone there and he had spent 14 years of his life devoted to this book and she had the gall to sit there and call Tolkien and everyone who had ever enjoyed reading LOTR pretentious.

i was absolutely thrilled when it won because it made most people in that room unhappy. i was astonished and saddened that so many people *cough clive anderson james naughtie michael rosen meera syal sue townsend cough* could sit there and actually say they did not like LOTR. could they not have just said 'i think some of the other books aren't as good' or something?

i am quite like ray mears, i think; i don't understand why anyone wouldn't like LOTR. Also, i loved it when Simon Tolkien looked at the audience while he was reading the quote and saying that there had been a lot of shots.

LOTR winning was effectively a smack in the face for the pretentious literati establishment and i relished every second of it.

pandora

12-14-2003, 12:07 PM

Part of the problem is that some people clearly wanted the most "important" book to win rather than the most enjoyable.

Would I vote LotR as more important than 1984 or War and Peace? No. Would I rather re-read LotR than the others? Yep.

The only books on the lists I think gave LotR a run for its money in the enjoyment stakes were Lord of the Flies and Hitchhikers, for me anyway.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

12-15-2003, 07:36 AM

I too think that a programme which practically sets out to insult about 25% of its audience is quite ridiculous.

I was not surprised that The Lord of the Rings won but I was content. Also happy that the Hitchhikers Guide finished so highly, as this is another work which laughs in the face of the pretentiousness (sp?) which we have all been discussing on this thread.

Eurytus

12-15-2003, 10:09 AM

That boy's own image was voiced by Edwin Muir in the Observer in 1955, and Tolkien was as scornful of it then as he would be today: "Blast Edwin Muir and his delayed adolescence. He is old enough to know better. It might do him good to know what women think of his 'knowing about women', especially as a test of being mentally adult. If he had an M.A. I should nominate him for the professorship of poetry - a sweet revenge." I wonder how those panelists would feel if they were to read that their opinions had been ridiculed by the author half a century ago. It certainly doesn't say much for their originality. Or perhaps Edwin Muir is now accepted as an academic authority, despite his lack of a higher degree.

Why should the panellists feel bad that their opinions had been ridiculed by the author half a century ago? The fact that Tolkien disagreed with Muir’s opinion does not invalidate said opinion. As far as I am concerned Muir got it right in respect to the boy’s own aspects of the story.
There is no real realisation of the true horrors of a global conflict, despite minor character’s deaths and Frodo’s saga cruise, none of the characters suffers too much. And as for any real sense of relationships between the sexes? Let’s face it, the courtships in Mallory were about as realistic.

I am also confused at the fact that you sneer at Muir because he does not have a “higher degree”. I was not aware that one needed to be an academic authority or to have a higher degree to criticise literature. Anyone who can read a book is more than able to criticise a book, and their criticisms will be no less valid for it.

Failivrin

12-15-2003, 03:13 PM

what really irritated me was that everyone referred to LOTR as a book for geeky teenage boys. it is an assumption i just cannot cope with. LOTR is NOT a book solely for geeky teenage boys. I am not a teenage boy, yet i enjoyed it hugely. i would be willing to bet that the majority of memebers on this site are not geeky teenage boys. why is this assumption still held? do people honestly think that women will not like a story if there are no huge female parts in it? do they really think that we weon't have anyone to associate with or something?

i would not really call LOTR a boy's own story. boy's own implies a ripping yarn about a bunch of boys who go off on an adventure, convert some people to christianity and all come back having had a jolly good time.

i dislike lord of the flies but i hear the film is hilarious. i think the others that i can remember that were enjoyable were The Hobbit, possibly HP Azkaban (the best in the series by far), Alice in Wonderland and Gone With the Wind

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

12-15-2003, 04:38 PM

Why should the panellists feel bad that their opinions had been ridiculed by the author half a century ago? The fact that Tolkien disagreed with Muir’s opinion does not invalidate said opinion.

I think it very unlikely that they'd feel bad about it. Rather they would probably respond in much the same way that you have: by agreeing with Muir and pointing out that Tolkien was bound to disagree with him (I would say particularly so, given the dismissive tone of the comments to which Tolkien was responding). The response is no more reasonable or justified, and my quoting of it in the first place is questionable in the extreme.

The same is true of my comment about higher degrees. I don't believe for one moment that anyone was confused by it, because it was completely unambiguous. I have an annoying habit of holding up academic qualifications as proof of superior critical ability, which I invariably regret when I read what I've written later. No, Tolkien is no more valid than Muir or anyone else who has read the book carefully, although any opinion ought to be supported with reference to the text.

As for those other interesting points (regarding global warfare and realistic romance), I think that another thread ought to address those, preferably in Books. It would certainly make for an interesting debate, but I think it's a bit off-topic for this one.

The really incomprehensible point for me is that I was only really watching the final to see the fur fly, but felt compelled to poke fun at the panel anyway. I can quite understand where they were coming from, although I feel especially that the woman who hadn't finished the book was on thin ice when offering a critique. I said above that the result tells us nothing we didn't already know, and that the voting system was odd to say the least. I suppose that my real objection was when The Lord of the Rings was specifically singled out and sniped at, particularly in order to promote one of the other works. Those books were invariably good enough to deserve votes without resorting to rubbishing the other choices (one of the televised reviews even went so far as to attack Pride and Prejudice in exactly the same way).

Perhaps the bottom line is that no book can be judged by public or critical acclaim alone. For me, the main value of the Big Read as it relates to Tolkien has been to underline W.H. Auden's comments in a 1956 New York Times article: I rarely remember a book about which I have had such violent arguments.
Nobody seems to have a moderate opinion: either, like myself, people find
it a masterpiece of its genre or they cannot abide it, and among the hostile
there are some, I must confess, for whose literary judgement I have great
respectWhilst I've seen moderate opinions on both sides of the fence, I can't help but agree in general principle.

The Saucepan Man

12-15-2003, 09:15 PM

I rarely remember a book about which I have had such violent arguments.
Nobody seems to have a moderate opinion: either, like myself, people find
it a masterpiece of its genre or they cannot abide it, and among the hostile
there are some, I must confess, for whose literary judgement I have great
respect.

Great quote, Squatter. There are a number of people for whom I have great respect (my brother and father included) who have no time at all for LotR. So, I have no difficulty at all in accepting that LotR is not everyone's cup of tea. And it is perhaps the enthusiasm displayed by those who love the book that provokes the sometimes hostile reaction of those who do not see what all the fuss is about.

But my main problem with the final of the Big Read was the facile, and at times immature, behaviour displayed by many of those who commented adversely upon it, and also Clive Anderson's complete inability to display the impartiality required of his role.

While browsing through the BBC's Big Read forum earlier today, I came across a delightful post pointing out the irony in the fact that some of those supporting Pride and Prejudice were, in their attempts to disparage LotR, displaying the very qualities that their favourite book pours scorn upon, and from which it takes its title. smilies/rolleyes.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

Eurytus

12-16-2003, 04:04 AM

But my main problem with the final of the Big Read was the facile, and at times immature, behaviour displayed by many of those who commented adversely upon it, and also Clive Anderson's complete inability to display the impartiality required of his role.
To be frank the whole show was ludicrous and not the attitude towards LOTR was not the only indicator of this.
I watched few of the shows, I will admit, but frankly when I saw Ruby Wax potentially put anyone who watches it off reading “The Catcher in the Rye” despite advocating it, I knew there were problems. She, and others of the presenters, seemed to consider the books a chance to talk about themselves. And that is something that Ms Wax needs no encouragement to do.

I saw the final show and that confirmed things for me. The concept of having tables devoted to various “camps” of book fans and having them whoop and holler like some American sitcom audience does every time Joey walks into a room left me in quiet amazement.

It was predictable that the show would end up like this as the whole point of reading is that it is a solitary occupation and the effect a book will have is dependent upon the person reading it as much as upon the book. So quite how they can suppose to have spokesmen (or women) talking up the points of my favourite book (when I might have read it in a completely different way) is baffling to me.

However we can draw some benefit from the program in that it does seem to have had some effect on the reading habits of people (especially children) in this country. Anything that even causes one person to turn of Big Brother or Changing Rooms and read a book can’t be all bad. After all, whatever our differences of opinion on individual books, pretty much any book (maybe even Jeffrey Archer) is going to do you more good than watching yet another room be converted in faux-zebra skin or watching Bob from Bristol take a dump in the Big Brother house.

Eurytus

12-16-2003, 04:13 AM

To be honest I have always felt that Tolkien somehow felt more threatened by Muir’s comments on the “Boy’s own” nature of the book and the lack of any real men/women relationships than he did from any other criticism.
Having read his letters it seemed apparent to me that Tolkiens comments on Muir were exceptionally vitriolic, especially by his own rather mild standards. The fact that he also did not specifically refute anything Muir had said with examples (which he was normally happy to do) makes me think that he felt more threatened by this criticism than by others. Perhaps because he felt in his heart that Muir had a point.
I certainly think he had a point. There is nothing wrong in having a “boy’s own” type of story. Many stories are. There is likewise nothing wrong in having a story totally dominated by the male gender, again many are. Lawrence or Arabia being a classic case in point.
However when you refer to a love that is the main driving force behind the character after which the 3rd book is titled then I think you have to make it believable. And I think that Tolkien failed here. It is no more believable than Mallory’s Arthurian tales of chivalry.
It might be possible to look into Tolkien’s life and find reasons for this. He certainly seems to have sought the companionship of men, and various “brotherhoods” were of supreme importance to him.
I don’t really believe that he was capable of writing the romance side of the book any differently. I don’t know if he had it in him so to speak. But it is interesting to me that the most developed “love story” in the book is Frodo and Sam’s. It may be platonic in nature but it is far more believable than Aragorn/Arwen.

Rumil

12-23-2003, 07:57 PM

I must confess that I missed the final showdown, and I so wanted to see the scion of the House of Tolkien as well.

One thing that really gets my goat about the criticism of Tolkien for not fully showing the horrors of warfare, in fact two things are-

1- Yes he does! The scnes with Sam and the soldier of Harad explains far more about the human condition than you'll ever get out of War and Peace

2- Jane Austen - she and her co-conspirators wrote, it must be said, elegant commentaries on the whole mating game. However, this was during the middle of the Napoleonic Wars, the greatest conflict the world had ever seen upto that time! Does she acknowledge this fact - never! Soldiers are only introduced as Yeomanry officers in sharp suits, how inferior to Tolstoy let alone Tolkien. I have a theory that the entire history of the British Empire was due to an entirely justifiable urge to escape the narrow minded socially restrictive petty one-up-womanship displayed in these novels, with the predictably disastrous results.

(Rant over, smilies/smile.gif )

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

01-01-2004, 01:24 PM

Ok, I agree with everything you say...but:
I have a theory that the entire history of the British Empire was due to an entirely justifiable urge to escape the narrow minded socially restrictive petty one-up-womanship displayed in these novels, with the predictably disastrous results.
Forgive my ignorance, but what's that in simple English?! smilies/rolleyes.gif And does that make you for or against the British Empire? (I personally see nothing wrong with it...but hey)

And back on topic...man, I just get sick of all these people slagging off LOTR...I think they really have something personal against it, because other books don't seem to come in for that sort of criticism...! And the same goes for Harry Potter...all those Christian groups campaigning against it...have they read Phillip Pullman yet?!