Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

[as eowyn]

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Greetings good people of The Downs, I, as in my previous questions of this type, want to know your opinion. But my last one didn't seemed to be altogether understood so I'll explain this one better.

Of all the offical &quot;Good guy's&quot; which one do you hate/dislike the most? And why? I think that pretty strait forward the rest is (hopefully) up to your good graces.

</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 611</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

If Feanor is classified as a good guy, I don't like him. He was not only far too obsessed with his Silmarils, but also spoke against the good judgement of the Valar and was responsible for the Kinslaying at Alqualonde.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
<FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'
</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
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Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

If Feanor is classified as a good guy -- at least he fought against Morgoth -- I don't like him. He was not only far too obsessed with his Silmarils, but also spoke against the good judgement of the Valar and was responsible for the Kinslaying at Alqualonde. He also deserted his kin, the host under Fingolfin, at Araman out of spite and forced them to cross using the Helcaraxe, Grinding Ice.

Edit: Sorry about that; I've notced I keep doing it recently.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
<FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000022>Gwaihir the Windlord</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 12/19/00 11:45:07 pm

[Inziladun]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 11</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

I've never really cared much for Thingol. Of course he's the father of Luthien and has seen the light of the Trees,but he just always seemed a bit too proud,especially in his dealings with Men and Dwarves. And he also refused to help the Edain and the Eldar against Morgoth. Melian seems somewhat self-righteous too,but that's another post.

Cheers

</p>

[noldo]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

I never liked Celeborn. For some reason I thought him very simple and vain. <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">


"...I do envy the sinners."
<font size=-1>Creator of <A HREF=http://pub22.ezboard.com/belvenhome>Elvenhome</A>, a fantasy forum and part of the<A HREF=http://pub20.ezboard.com/badvertisehere>Tolkien EZBoard Network</A>.
Also a strong supporter of <A HREF=http://pub26.ezboard.com/bmithlond>Mithlond</A>, a Middle-Earth RPG forum.</font size=-1> </p>

[onewhitetree]

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Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

I agree about Thingol...much too self-absorbed.

And good ol' Tom Bombadil gets on my nerves terribly...he just poses so many problems, and acts really ridiculous in the process.

Sell crazy someplace else...We're all stocked up here. <a href=http://pub23.ezboard.com/bminasmorgul>Minas Morgul</a></p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

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Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

I quite agree about Celeborn. I found him rather boring actually.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[Lady Eowyn]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 86</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
celeborn

Thingol!!
I don't really know why, I just dislike him. I guess it's because how he reacted to the love
of Beren and Luthien.
Also Bombadil he's annoying. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 95</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Thingol

I guess Thingol is just one of those guys that you can't ever seem to like. I was thinking it was just me but i guess not. I think it was that whole Silmarill incident that really turned me off of him.

But I hate Maeglin even more than Elwe. He seems even worse than Eol to me. He spurned his dad. He liked his own cousin(growse). He didn't like Tuor(one of my favorite people). And he betrayed the people of Gondolin.

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

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Re: Thingol

I never liked Boromir either though it's rather debatable whether he was a good guy at all. I rather think he was. He certainly wasn't evil.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[as eowyn]

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Posts: 30</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Really?

Really? I've always felt rather sorry for Boromir. He had so much potential, he just couldn't handle the lure of the Ring. He could have been such a help at the Last Battle. Considering how many orcs he killed at Amon Hen and to save the younger hobbits too, of whom he seem to dislike so. But then I've always been a sucker for guys like that. Dose anyone else feel this way?

</p>

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 134</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Really?

Yeah, Boromir was a fine fellow. Just too weak willed when it came to the lure of the Ring. But only the noblest can pass that test anyway. Even Frodo succumbed in the end, remember?

Denethor is definitely at the bottom of my list. What a jerk. <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"With that they parted, and it was then the time of sunset; and when after a while they turned and looked back, they saw the King of the West sitting upon his horse with his knights about him; and the falling Sun shone upon them and made all their harness to gleam like red gold, and the white mantle of Aragorn was turned to a flame. Then Aragorn took the green stone and held it up, and there came a green fire from his hand."</p>

-Many Partings, The Return of the King</p></blockquote></p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

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Posts: 50</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Really?

Denethor wasn't really a bad guy. Fallen pride and the palantir finally led him to what he became. He was convinced that the Shadow would succeed remember?

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 135</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Really?

Yes, I remember, or I wouldn't have chosen him. The topic is your least favorite GOOD guy. My least favorite GOOD guy is Denethor. <img src=indifferent.gif ALT=":/">

-rëd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"With that they parted, and it was then the time of sunset; and when after a while they turned and looked back, they saw the King of the West sitting upon his horse with his knights about him; and the falling Sun shone upon them and made all their harness to gleam like red gold, and the white mantle of Aragorn was turned to a flame. Then Aragorn took the green stone and held it up, and there came a green fire from his hand."</p>

-Many Partings, The Return of the King</p></blockquote></p>

[noldo]

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Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

I don't see why you guys don't like Thingol. He might have been proud, yes, but he still was very cool too.

It's holiday in Elvenhome and the glades of the forests are covered in white snow. Come in and enjoy. <BR<font size=-1>Creator of <A HREF=http://pub22.ezboard.com/belvenhome>Elvenhome</A>, a fantasy forum and part of the<A HREF=http://pub20.ezboard.com/badvertisehere>Tolkien EZBoard Network</A>.
Also a strong supporter of <A HREF=http://pub26.ezboard.com/bmithlond>Mithlond</A>, a Middle-Earth RPG forum.</font size=-1> </p>

[Grey Fool]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Personalities

Out of all the good guys in Middle-earth, of which there seem to be plenty, or something for everyone as you might say (in fact I feel rather spoilt for choice), the most annoying to my mind has to be Galadriel, who is quite obviously used to having everything her own way. She didn't even bat an eyelid when the Dark Lord was defeated. Honestly, some people take things so much for granted it's untrue....

As for Sir Bombadil, he is the Man. His mystery is his giveaway, as you might say... <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Personalities

I didn't even realize the exact topic of conversation. Would Maeglin really fit into the &quot;Good Guys&quot; column then? And it is not that I don't like Thingol, i just find him, well, arrogant.


</p>

[onewhitetree]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Personalities

Galadriel WAS quite mysterious....
But I liked her the better for, and Tom Bombadil is just irritating. But I am grateful to him for saving the hobbits' lives. The quest wouldn't have gone far without him <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

Sell crazy someplace else...We're all stocked up here. <a href=http://pub23.ezboard.com/bminasmorgul>Minas Morgul</a></p>

[Glornan]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Personalities

Thingol was quite a lucky fellow, being the first Teler that saw the Trees and having married a beautiful wood-Maia. This might have made him think he was the High-King of the world, and it probably also made him very proud. So, I also feel kinda sorry for him, just as Boromir. Still, I least like ....





Odo Proudfoot! Interrupting a well-respected gentlehobbit on his farewell speech(literally) for something stupid like the plural of your name is against all common hobbit sense<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> .

(used to be Quam, but thought of a nicer, more Tolkien, name) </p>

[as eowyn]

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HaHa

Haha Glornana that was wonderful! But I think that Bilbo got him back with his disappearing act <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

</p>

[dogtrot]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 74</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Personalities

denethor is my choice for least favorite as well. he really should have shown a little more backbone in the face of what he believed to be an overwelming obstacle and his own death. he was tricked by sauron but he should have seen that coming too.

</p>

[Brian The Blue]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Personalities

mine least favorite is Celeborn but simply becuase it seems that while tolkein was writing that he forgot him and concentrated on Galadreil. I dont think that he was a lack of character it simply was that he played to small a role.


</p>

[noldo]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 58</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Personalities

The brilliance and greatness of Galadriel just made Celeborn seem like a total loser.

It's holiday in Elvenhome and the glades of the forests are covered in white snow. Come in and enjoy.
<font size=-1>Creator of <A HREF=http://pub22.ezboard.com/belvenhome>Elvenhome</A>, a fantasy forum and part of the<A HREF=http://pub20.ezboard.com/badvertisehere>Tolkien EZBoard Network</A>.
Also a strong supporter of <A HREF=http://pub26.ezboard.com/bmithlond>Mithlond</A>, a Middle-Earth RPG forum.</font size=-1> </p>

[burrahobbit]

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Posts: 577</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

Sam. He was rather not nice to Smeagol.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Grand Admiral Reese]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 36</TD><TD><img src=http://www.facelink.com/edit/raw/rawimage/50/1315350.jpg?flezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60?flezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60?flezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60?flezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60?flezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60 WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

Feanor if you can really call him a good guy. Or Celeborn.


Tall ships and tall kings Three times three, What brought they from the foundered land Over the flowing sea? Seven stars and seven stones And one white tree. .</br>
Administrator @ <a href=http://pub6.ezboard.com/bthegrandadmiralsforums>The Grand Admirals Forums</a>, <a href=http://pub10.ezboard.com/bb5techforums>The Grey Council Forums</a>, <a href=http://pub9.ezboard.com/bechostation12>The McClain Council</a> and <a href=http://pub14.ezboard.com/bthegrandmoffsforums>The Grand Moff's Forums</a>.</br> </p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 68</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Sam

I agree with Burrahobbit. Sam was definitely nasty to Smeagol. Horrible old hobbit. We hatess it!

</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 578</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Sam

We hates it forever!

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Salabel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

Hmmm...Feanor was way too proud of himself and his jewels...Celeborn, I agree, was mighty and good in his own right, it says so in FotR, something like &quot;he was one of the wisest yada yada&quot; but Tolkien DID concentrate too much on Galadriel - how beautiful she was, how she held the ring, how she blessed everyone, it annoyed me. Bombadil is too happy. Denethor was mislead, that was his problem...Boromir was tempted too greatly by the ring, that was his fault. Hmmm.

</p>

[onewhitetree]

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Posts: 43</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

Sam?!? How is possible to dislike Sam? He was only doing it to protect his master.

Sell crazy someplace else...We're all stocked up here. <a href=http://pub23.ezboard.com/bminasmorgul>Minas Morgul</a></p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 77</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Sam

Yeah, but Smeagol deserved a fair go.

I personally can't see how anyone could not like Tom Bombadil. You all seem to equate him being happy all the time to him not caring about the rest of the world, or him being stupid or something. Just because he didn't get all fussed about the ring doesn't mean he's bad. He lived his life his own way without worrying about the same things other people worried about.

</p>

[Salabel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 9</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

Bombadil just gets on your nerves. He does care about Middle Earth, but he is restricted to his own domain, and therefore does little outside it. But he's so damn annoying! Sure, he's great and &quot;oldest and fatherless&quot; as the elves call him but all he does is bloody SING! ARGH!

</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 80</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
TB

What's wrong with singing?

I don't see what's so annoying about not being solemn and serious.

</p>

[gamegie]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

It must be Elrond, I think he does not carry his weight in the LOTR. He could have done much more good and certainly could have send some of his elfes to follow the company at least until the Moria.

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 224</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

Uh-oh....

rêd?

</p>

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 136</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Now you've gone TOO FAR!

Ok, nobody...I repeat, NOBODY picks on Elrond!!! Got it, bub!?!? And if I see my noble elves referred to as 'elfies' again, I may blow my stack...!!!! <img src=mad.gif ALT=">:">

-rêd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"With that they parted, and it was then the time of sunset; and when after a while they turned and looked back, they saw the King of the West sitting upon his horse with his knights about him; and the falling Sun shone upon them and made all their harness to gleam like red gold, and the white mantle of Aragorn was turned to a flame. Then Aragorn took the green stone and held it up, and there came a green fire from his hand."</p>

-Many Partings, The Return of the King</p></blockquote></p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 87</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Now you've gone TOO FAR!

:runs and hides from the wrath of Red:

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1659</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Now you've gone TOO FAR!

I think I detect an unhealthy Elrond fetish here! <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":/">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 137</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Now you've gone TOO FAR!

Someone's got a crush. Red and Elrond sitting in a tree...

But I thought that it wasn't Elrond, wasn't it someone else?

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 65</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Now you've gone TOO FAR!

Aaaaaargh! I thought we agreed not to drag homosexuality into anything to do with Tolkien. Anyway, it is kinda funny...

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1661</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Now you've gone TOO FAR!

Since red is a female, we've not strayed into that territory, Lorien wanderer.

But he's too old for you, red!!!

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Now you've gone TOO FAR!

But then, there was also a pretty large age-gap between Aragorn and Arwen, wasn't there?

</p>

[Inziladun]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 26</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Now you've gone TOO FAR!

They were 2,690 years apart. Seems like it would be a bit
awkward....

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 146</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Now you've gone TOO FAR!

They would have nothing in common, one would be talking about something that isn't even recorded in history while the other just sat there with a blanck look on their face.

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 70</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Now you've gone TOO FAR!

Whoops.
Sorry Red.
But the age gap ain't a problem.
Look at Aragorn and Arwen.
Look at that 86 year old lady and 18 year old chap who got married in London.
Look at all the Pakistani ancients who marry girls not out of puberty.
No sirreee, it ain't a problemo.
The only problem: I rather suspect you're mortal.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[Taimar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of the Downfallen West
Posts: 377</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Now you've gone TOO FAR!

lol, temper, temper, red....

To get back on topic, I have a strong dislike for Galadriel and Celeborn. Thingol is a fairly shallow individual also.

Incidentally, I noticed the names of Feanor and Denethor appearing a few posts back. They are my favourite characters in the Sil. and LOTR respectively. One man`s meat is another man`s poison, I suppose.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[onewhitetree]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 67</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Now you've gone TOO FAR!

Legolas aside, the majority of the elves seemed very self-absorbed. Maybe that was their way, but ...I just never have been a huge elf-fanatic. I vastly prefer the amiable, delightful little hobbits.

<p align=center>Every leaf a miracle ~ The woods are lovely, dark, and deep
I am Administrator at <a href=http://pub43.ezboard.com/bfangornforest>Fangorn Forest</a>!
I am also a great fan of <a href=http://pub23.ezboard.com/bminasmorgul>Minas Morgul</a>.</p></p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 153</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Now you've gone TOO FAR!

How dare you say that Beleg and Finrod were self-absorbed. And how is it possible to not like hobbits, in one way or another.

</p>

[as eowyn]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 33</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Okay. . .

I've been gone for a little while and just got back. Here is what think: Celeborn, ya he was kinda dull, didn't do much.
Sam, how could you insult Sam? He is the noblest creature in ME. More so even then Frodo. Because Frodo went knowing what he did, Sam went not knowing, and that's worse. And as for Horrible Old Hobbit, that's right out! I do agree that Sam was &quot;nasty&quot; to Smeagol but if you will forgive me he was a murdering, thieving, conniving, treacherous, being who deserved to be under constant suspicion. Sam could have been a lot &quot;nastier&quot; then he was.
Tom Bombadil, was intersesting, funny and saved the Hobbits, he was an okay guy (but DID sing too much and TOO silly).
Elrond was cool. He did what was needed, he could have done more but (obviously) he didn't need to. I have to agree with red &quot;elfies&quot; was too much. I don't get he thing about red and Elrond, why did it even need to be discussed?
Legolas, he was noble, he was an Elf, and he was a prince he deserved to be a little self-absorbed. He (funny this seems to apply to most good elves. - the felloship part ) did what the fellowship needed him to do.
Thats it, until more of you (or the same ones) decide to grace me with more of your preferences.

</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 117</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:Thought someone would bring Sam up.

(Here is what Sam did to Gollum:He jumped on him like&quot;cats on poor mices&quot;,he tied a rope around Gollum's ankle-very loose at that-,he was sarcastic with him-especially in Ithillien-,he snapped at him when they were at the stairs leading to Shelob's lair-but apologized after wards-,he swore vengence on Frodo-whom he thought dead-,and he let the little stinker go on Mt Doom.
Now what did Gollum do to Sam and Frodo:He followed them,he bit Sam's shoulder and tried to throttle him in the process,he was thinking about taking the Ring from Frodo in that one pit-which fortuanatly Sam stopped-,he BETRAYED them into Shelob's claws,he fought with Frodo on the mountain,and last but not least he bit offf Frodo's finger,now any suffering that Frodo had to indure Sam indured as well,seeing his masters maimed hand probably was not fun at all for Sam and he had to indure more hunger,and thirst so that Frodo could have more water and lembas.So dont call sarcasim,mistrust,and that one part at the Emyn Muil nasssssty treatment.
We all do that-get sarcastic and mistrusting-at times, even those who call sarcasim nasty treatment.)
As for my least favorite Good Guy's,I'd have to go with Feanor-way too proud and he killed his own kin for boats to get his stupid jewels back <img src=mad.gif ALT=">:"> (bad form wot wot-,Maeglin-what a jerk,jeez the cousin thing(very sick minded)and that Gondolin thing(someone needed to give that boy a boot in the rear)-,Thingol-he got in the way of fate and true love,and sold his daughter to boot.-,and the SB's-they spoil their son,and they dont like Frodo or anyone associated with him(including Sam and all the other hobbits makes me mad<img src=mad.gif ALT=">:"> ()-.
My least fav Good girl is Arwen,she does'nt get into the plot-well hardly at all-and she seems stiff and colorless,at least Eowen has a personality and some interest.
Sam
Ps.I forgot Celeborn and TB-I kinda like TB's songs but he put them through SINGING in the downs,not a favorite activity when you're in trouble-but Celeborn is kinda dull compared to his golden haired wife-he even has silver hair,not color to it at all-

</p>

[The X Phial]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 108</TD><TD><img src=http://community.universitypride.com/cecilyanne/X-Files-01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Thought someone would bring Sam up.

I have a sort of hero worship thing for Galadriel, so I can't really understand why people don't like her. She survived the trek from Valinor to Middle Earth and took a large role in the leadership of that group of the Nolder on the journey. She is strong, wise, kind, powerful, and beautiful. So, as I said before, I don'r know why some dislike her. If I had to pick a least favorite good guy I would go for Thingol, he just ****ed me off!

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[Borthand]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 6</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Ref

I am not a fan of Elrond, especialy because his father Earendil and brother Elros(whose influence on middle earth would outweigh that of his brother) were such great characters. I dont know why i dont like him, he was great in his way but he also seemed to be a stuck up snob.

But Melian is my least favoutie, she deserted her people and left Doraith open just when they needed her most, leading to its downfull. Of course she was grieved at the passing of Thingol, but a great queen would not have deserted her realm.

</p>

[Mithrandir]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 66</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ref

I think that Boromir was too proud of himself (note-blowing the horn at the departure of the company from rivendell, even when he was advised against it), and he was also weak, he couldnt resist the lure of the ring. although i admit that it would be tempting for anyone, the company was there to support the ringbearer, they were suposed to be able to be trusted. Boromir was absorbed too much in his own needs and the needs of his people to realize the needs of the entire people of ME. He was not a bad guy, but i just didnt like him because he couldnt resist the ring.

The Road goes ever on and on </p>

[Telchar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 42</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ref

Good points from all of you - the weak heart of Boromir and his father was just a very sad story I think - but not in itself evil or cruel, pity on them both.

Who really can get under my skin is Celeborn - To me he just seems like a arrogant snop! - which I think is sad, when we think how highly Gandalf and others spoke of him - He is the one I am the most dissapointed in!

</p>

[Meriadoc61]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 12</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Least favorite good guy

My least favorite good guy would be Treebeard. His hroom hums were a bit annoying. Plus, how could he have let Saruman go after pledging to keep him until (I believe) he had been held seven times as long as he had tormented the Ents? The ents would not tire of this!! Treebeard's letting him go seemed to me to be a &quot;bit hasty&quot; for someone who is supposedly not hasty. And can you imagine Gandalf's reaction if that had been Pippin letting Saruman go? &quot;Why don't you bang your head against Orthanc, Pippin, and if that doesn't pound some sense into you, why not throw yourself into a fissure. This is no hobbit walking party!&quot;

</p>

[Mithrandir]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 67</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Least favorite good guy

haha, poor Pippin. Gandalf would never let him forget that one. Yes, i also think that Treebeard was wrong with letting Saruman escape, it did seem hasty for a rather unhasty ent.

The Road goes ever on and on </p>

[Odysseus819]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 329</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Least favorite good guy

Tom Bombadil, definitely. Sorry, Zoe but that entire chapter is almost unreadable IMHO. I think a good editor would have cut it and asked JRRT to find another way for the hobbits to be saved from the wight.

</p>

[Meriadoc61]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 13</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Some musings

Odysseus819: You said &quot;Tom Bombadil, definitely. Sorry, Zoe but that entire chapter is almost unreadable IMHO. I think a good editor would have cut it and asked JRRT to find another way for the hobbits to be saved from the wight.&quot;

I find this a fascinating statement, because I think it goes to the heart as to why LotR has appealed to so many different people: people find some parts better than others. My favorite part of the novel is from chapter one through At The Sign Of The Prancing Pony. As I write this, Old Man Willow is pasted on my computer screen. My brother's favorite part, who got me in to Tolkien's work, was The Scouring Of The Shire. My wife disliked The Council Of Elrond so much she could not finish the chapter, or the novel, which has distressed me greatly.

This may be a bit off topic, but I know there are some females in this thread. I, personally, have never been able to meet a female who really enjoyed Tolkien. Have others experienced this, too?

</p>

[The X Phial]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 119</TD><TD><img src=http://www.jamestbaker.com/cec/X-Files-01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Some musings

I, myself, have never actually met another person in real life who loves Tolkien as much as I do. I am female, as well. I think science fiction and fantasy in general are more enjoyed by males than females (though I know a lot of women who love sci fi, it's nowhere near the number of men I know)! I didn't have anyone bring me into the stories, either. I just didn't have a tv and was catching up on all the classic sci fi and fantasy I hadn't read. I got hooked after the Hobbits met Strider, but my favorite part is the Moria/Lorien sequence. So, in short, no, I haven't noticed what you have, but I can see why this should be so.

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 812</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Some musings

Something you may find a little weird then X, is that it seems there are about the same amount of females that post on this board as there are males.

</p>

[The X Phial]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 121</TD><TD><img src=http://www.jamestbaker.com/cec/X-Files-01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Some musings

I guess an alternative explanation could therefore be that Tolkien (or at least this excellent site) draws more women than regular sci fi and fantasy. Hmm, maybe there's a disseration in this! LOL <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[Meriadoc61]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 14</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Some Musings

I am glad I brought it up.

</p>

[Mithrandir]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 73</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Some Musings

Last summer i went to a workshop for my job, and i was rooming with another female who happened to like Tolkien just as much as i do. However, that is the only person that i have met that is really into Tolkien. . .none of my friends have even read LotR! And when they see me reading it for the millionth time, they ask why am i reading it again. &quot;Isnt it just the same as the last time you read it?&quot; they ask. Oh well, i guess they dont understand the complexity of ME. But i do understand the rariety of finding someone who likes LotR just as much as we do.

The Road goes ever on and on </p>

[KayQy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 203</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Spreading the Word

Most of the people I know either read it a long time ago, have only vaguely heard of it (one person confused it with Lord of the Flies!), or haven't heard of it at all. However, that is changing. I have got my roommate and a couple of other friends started on them. Who knows? They might pop up here someday... (Oh, and I'm a female that loves sci-fi in general, but don't take me as the norm for anything...<img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> )

Back on Topic: It struck me that with some of the characters considered &quot;least favorite good guys&quot; it's kind of ambiguous whether they really are good guys. Like Feanor and the S-Bs. They're not villians, at least not compared to Sauron or Morgoth, but still...

And it's kind of strange as well, after all the uproar about Tom cut out of the movie, to hear someone say that it could have been left out of the book!

I do not know that we can have a heaven here on earth, but I am sure we need not have a hell here either. --Rich Mullins</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 340</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Spreading the Word

Hmmmm....I'm female. And I generally don't like too much science fiction. But I love this genre of fantasy and Tolkien's a passion with me. And I got 4 of my frineds started on LoTR-finally. And they loved it! However, only 1 has shown any inclination to delve deeper into middle earth and read the Silmarillion and the others. I guess most people just like to read LoTR and leave it at that.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Gilthalion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hobbitus Emeritus
Posts: 349</TD><TD><img src=http://home.att.net/~robertwgardner/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Least Favorite LOTR Good Guy

My least favorite LOTR good guy would have to be...

PIPPIN TOOK!

He was absolutely nothing but trouble and a burden for much of the way and I'll just betcha if he hadn't run off, Merry wouldn't have either and then Boromir might have lived!

For that matter, it was Pippin who awoke the Balrog sooner rather than later in Moria!

Troublesome Took!

<center><font face=verdana size=1> http://www.barrowdowns.comBarrow-Downs</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000Bare Bones</a>~http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.htmlGrand Adventures</a>~http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.aspThe Hobbits</a>~http://www.tolkientrail.comTolkien Trail</a> </center></p>

[Meriadoc61]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 15</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Pippin

Gilthalion, are you sure it was Pippin that woke up the Balrog, or could it have been the ring itself? Sauron was exerting all of his power to draw his ring to him, so could not it had been what brought the Balrog forth?

I know Gandalf said something to the effect that Pippins's foolishness probably woke something that should have better been left undisturbed, but Gandalf was always snapping at Pippin for one thing or another.

Tom Bombadil left out of the movie??? Why? that seems as bad to me as when the movie version of the Hobbit left out Beorn! Why can't these people just leave the movie the same as the book? It's perfectly fine as it is. If I was going to do a LotR movie, I would incorporate every dialogue uttered just as it is in the books, nd not change a word.

Hroom, hrum! I believe I am getting worked up! I had better lie down on a table!

</p>

[Earendilyon]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 3</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

I surely despise Feanor, and Thingol is neither one of my fave characters!

"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." </p>

[Odysseus819]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 350</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

A bit off-topic but Merry's comment about different parts of the book appealing to different people made me think: for some reason my favorite parts of LotR are the discusrsive parts where ppl just sitting around talking -- e.g. The Shadow of the Past chapter, the Council of Elrond, Strider's meeting with the hobbits in Bree, even the council of captains after the Battle of Pelennor Fields (when Gandalf says &quot;I do not counsel prudence . . &quot;). I'm not sure why that is, but JRRT seems at his best in these parts. But other ppl may like the &quot;action&quot; parts better.

</p>

[CorinaElenia]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 2</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

Thingol drives me crazy. He's way too proud for his own good. I guess being a huge fan of Feanor's sons puts me at odds with Thingol. I still think if he'd just bent his stiff neck a little and given the dwarves their pay, than Doriath wouldn't have been destroyed and he wouldn't have died.

~Corina

</p>

[lamarquise]

This is probably pretty predictable, but...

Regarding Sam--I think you misjudge him if you think he was unforgivably mean to Gollum. He was sharp, certainly, on a number of occasions because he (sensibly, if not perhaps farsightedly) considered Gollum a threat and didn't like him. Perhaps Sam was, to some extent, responsible for the decision Gollum made to abandon him and Frodo to Shelob. In the end, though, Gollum made that choice. His evil actions over so many years had made it virtually (if not actually) impossible to choose otherwise. Notice, too, that Sam treats Gollum differently after he bears the Ring a while. Not that he dislikes Gollum any less, but he has more compassion. Sam's forebearance at Mt. Doom, as much as Frodo's earlier, permitted the destruction of the Ring. Take into account all the good Sam did--enduring well the most aggravating hunger, thirst, and fatigue and untold emotional pain to protect his friend and get the pieces in place so ME could be rescued. He could have turned back at any point along the road and had every reason to. He knew he didn't have much to offer but loyalty. Of all the hobbits, he may have been the most frightened by everything along the way and most aware of what he was sacrificing to do what he felt he had to--but he went on because he had made a commitment. He really comes a long way, considering how provincial and uneducated he was about the world at the story's beginning and how wise and good he has become at the story's close.

Again, just my two cents!

[Pippin]

Gilthalion:

HEY!!!!!! Pippin did NOT wake up the Balrog, the orcs did! and they wouldn't have come running just coz they heard a stone fall-they were coming anyway, probably drawn by the ring, and Gandalf's light. (I'm not insultin' the big guy, but it wasn't MY fault!)

If Boromir hadn't been killed, who knows what he would have done in his mad desire for the ring? he could have followed Frodo, or done something terrible. In my opinion, I think he was a little too "hasty" as the Ents say.

[peregrine]

what a lively discussion! quite funny in parts too. i have to try and put aside some GOOD characters whom i dislike but have respect for. these include Thingol (arrogant and haughty, but some lovely rhetoric and a "stuff the lot of them" attitude); Celeborn, he's got the runs on the board but he's a bit wishy-washy. I think Denethor gets my vote as least favourite because his initial virtue was conquered by his vanity, and he had such a crucial role to play.

[Pippin]

peregrine, I haven't seen you around for a while...
I think this was a dangerous topic to start but it was fun! smilies/wink.gif

[RyAN the Pure Heart]

May i assert the statment that opinions cant be wrong smilies/rolleyes.gif Anyways i think Glorfindel is my fav. as well as the generic answers of Gandalf and Aragorn.

RyAN

[Serevian The Ranger]

Thingol

[Fenrir]

Eowyn for (arguably) killing my favourite character-the Witch-King.

[peregrine]

I guess Aragorn gets up my nose a bit (is that blasphemy?). He's a bit haughty. Sure he's got the lineage but I think the blood's pretty thin by the time it gets to him and yet he carries on a bit.

Hi Pippin. Been away for a while, and have been reading the posts with nothing of worth to add ('wise is the man who, with nothing to say, says nothing')

[Pippin]

those darn rangers!
but I suppose we could let Aragorn off for not being much of a "people" person, he did spend a good chunk of his life wandering about in the wild. but I admit he was a little snooty... smilies/cool.gif

[peregrine]

i liked him better as strider. as a group the rangers stir up some of the strongest feelings of adventure and hardship, and when they turn up at the battles at the end they are tall and grim and quiet. that's cool. aragorn's just a bit of a knob in between strider and the end. perhaps the weight of gandalf's disappearance was almost too much for him?

[Lindolirian]

Alright first of all NEVER mess with Pippin. He didn't wake up the Balrog!!! Y'know Gollum was followin them thru moria na dwhen he found that they might actually escape he called his lil orc friends... he probably didn;t know there was a Balrog or he wouldn't have called them but they brouth the Balrog and it wasn't Pippin's fault. His dropping of the stone was pure coincidence to the starting of the hammer tappings. Pippin is the most fun loving fellow of the group he's what makes the journey entertaining. DON"T MESS WITH PEREGRIN TOOK!!!!!! smilies/mad.gif

[John of the Race of Men]

Im not fond of any of the elves except maybe Legolas. It always seems the elves think they are better than men. And maybe they are better but only because Eru made them better not through any doing of their own.

[silme-ranaa]

Sam.
what is it with him anyway?
the way he worships Frodo gives me the creeps.

[StarJewel]

Definitly Thingol. The way he treated Beren was awful, and his pride become the death of him. Had I been in Luthien's shoes, i would have grabbed Beren, hauled out of Doriath, and gone somewhere where my proud, controlling father couldnt find us

[Olorin]

I didn't really connect with Celeborn. Also, if Boromir and "movie Faramir" are considered "good guys," then them too.

[Finwe]

The "good guy" that I hate the most is Finarfin. I mean, that man (Elf, whatever) was absolutely spineless! Even Fingolfin, who was considered one of the levelheaded brothers, mustered his courage and made it to Middle-earth. But then again, what can you expect from someone whose only claim to fame was being the prettiest of the bunch!

[StarJewel]

Hey, lay off the blondes. We aren't all wimps and dummies

[Finwe]

I didn't mean to insult him because he was blond. In fact, I admire most of the blondes in Middle-earth. Just look at Galadriel and Idril! I love them both! I have nothing against blondes at all, it's just Finarfin that I hate!

[StarJewel]

It's ok, i was just kidding. But your right, Finarfin is a dweeb. At least his kids followed a different example than their father

[Finwe]

I definitely agree with you, Finarfin was indeed a dweeb.

Another person who should be inducted into the Official League of Elf-King Dweebs is Thingol. I mean, that man just did not know when to let off. After all, Luthien was probably way over the Elven age of consent, and she had a right to decide who she wanted to love or not.

[StarJewel]

Yeah, Thingol is another one who needed a little sense slapped into him. He was the classic "I'm gonna control your life til you croak" parent from the underworld. He wouldnt even listen to his wife. Bad move, Thingol

[Finwe]

My point exactly. He acts a LOT like my father!

Another father who needed to be slapped was Erendis' father. Erendis was such a brat!

[Lyta_Underhill]

I used to hate Boromir, and Aragorn used to irritate me. Now I feel for Boromir and Aragorn interests me; it is strange how views change over the years! I can't see how anyone could like Pippin least, though! There's just something joyful and resonant in Pippin's character that cheers me up, even when I am quite down! Even his thoughts at the Gate of Morannon, when he seemed to be dying under a troll, were uplifting. It is refreshing to read about a character whose spirit laughs a little, even on the threshold of death. Go Pippin!

OK, I got off the track there, didn't I? I can see why Celeborn might be an unfavorite, but I even feel for him after Galadriel leaves and he dwells alone among his beloved trees, a forlorn reminder of a great race passed to the West.

I do have a bone to pick with Melian the Maia, though; Thingol dies and she falls to pieces and lets her protection slip completely! Rather selfish, really! Goodbye Thingol, goodbye Doriath. Oh well! Find some other wayward elf in another forest, why don't you, Melian? (Apologies for editorializing!)

As for Maeglin; had high hopes for him at first, but I could see which way he was going. What a stinker!

I know I'll have to read the Silmarillion again to fully understand some things, but I found myself alternately feeling for and berating Turin! Sure he's a hero and all, but he seemed to be so reckless that he did a lot to doom Nargothrond himself. But, yes, what a run of bad luck! Never did anything deserve its fate more than Glaurung! Again, what a stinker!

Under the heading of irritating but at the same time endearing: Ioreth, one of the women in the Houses of Healing. What a gossip! She was interesting, though, for the illustration of just how legends are born: one of the halflings entered Mordor with only his esquire and set fire to the Dark Lord's tower! OK, the Enquirer version! (Or perhaps the Quibbler?) smilies/wink.gif

I can't think straight anymore, so I'll stop here...
'Night all!
Cheers,
Lyta

[Finwe]

Well, Lyta dear, since when was Maeglin a good character? Perhaps it was just me, but from the second that I started reading about him in the Silmarillion, I knew he was going to go bad. I never really had any high expectations for him. After all, look at his father. Now the son had to inherit something of his father's personality.

[The X Phial]

So...biology is destiny? I see no evidence for that.

Maeglin was not "bound" to inherit his father's dark influence. He was quite a good guy when he saved his mother and he was a wise counselor of Turgon for many years. I would say he qualifies as a "good guy" if Boromir does. The only way Maeglin was like his father was in his pride. He loved unwisely, but not falsely. His evil deeds came from his rejected love and the jealousy resulting. Daeron also displayed jealousy out of pride, but he had less power to do something drastic out of his anger.

My least favorite "good guy", btw, is the Gaffer. He annoys me to no end.

[Finwe]

What I meant to say was, Eol's greatest weakness was his pride, and it was also Maeglin's greatest weakness. Something like that tends to be passed on, not by biology, but by kids watching their parents' behavior. Maeglin probably saw his father being really arrogant towards his mother, and subconsciously, thought it was the way to be. It's another one of those Freudian things.

[StarJewel]

Maeglin's reason for helping his mother was partially self serving. He learned all he could from his father and anted more. I'm not saying that helping his mom wasnt good, but i would have thought better of him if he did it just for his love for her. If he had grown up differently, he may not have turned out like his father. And, Eol was a real creep, so Maeglin didnt have a real good example to follow

[Magician of Nathar]

Definitely Denethor. That character came of as a total jerk for me. The way he treats Faramir and the way he doubts Gandalf and Aragorn sickens me.

[Lord of Angmar]

I can't say that I dislike immensely any of the characters in LotR or the Sil, for such is Tolkien's writing that I can only feel sorry for some of their follies. For example, Feanor is clearly quite egocentric and his complete lack of duplicity in speech makes him seem overbearing and arrogant. But how else can one feel who knows well that he is the strongest, most cunning, fairest, greatest warrior and subtlest craftsman in the world? His follies were great, but I don't hate him for it. As for Denethor, his madness did not stem from a hateful or malevolent disposition but rather from an overwhelming fear of the darkness, a simple human emotion that all of us can relate with. As for Tom Bombadil, I can see why many serious fantasy readers would brush him off as a childish, stupid and pointless character, but personally he is one of my favorite characters in Tolkien's work, a breath of fresh air in his often dark and gloomy writing. Boromir I pity greatly, and I think Sean Bean did a wondrous job of bringing out the pitiable, only-human side of Boromir that many didn't recognize when reading LotR. I can honestly say that there are no characters in any of Tolkien's works who I dislike aside from the obviously evil characters. I do feel pity for many of them and think that they would have done better to make different choices. Even Morgoth himself was pitiable in a way, a great being with knowledge and power beyond any save Manwe and Eru, and it is pitiable even to see his mind corrupted and grievous to see the marring of the world at his hands.

[Yavanna228]

As for Tom Bombadil, I can see why many serious fantasy readers would brush him off as a childish, stupid and pointless character, but personally he is one of my favorite characters in Tolkien's work, a breath of fresh air in his often dark and gloomy writing.
Ah, Lord, wonderful. smilies/biggrin.gif
The only 'good guy' that I dislike somewhat is Denethor, but, as Tolkien's writing is, a person is not starkly good or bad, black or white. They are, thankfully, much more complex than that. Grey area makes for interesting reading and speculations, whereas black and white make for sometimes dull factualism and give the brain a rest. smilies/smile.gif
Peace

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This opinion topic has been moved to join other similar threads on the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue reading and posting there.

[Noldorin King]

THINGOL. if anyone is prouder than he was it's probably Feanor but this one was more of a bad guy and yes i LIKE him...I hated the King of Doriath, why did Luthien have to be his child? she could've been a Vanya or a Noldo

[RRyan24]

Okay I admit I'm not very far in reading the Lord of the Rings books at all so I can't particularly judge by the books. But in the movies the one person who really drives me up the wall is Eowyn. The way she took quite a fancy to Aragorn knowing he belonged to someone else just made my opinion of her go south. Plus she just rubs me the wrong way she seems so...I don't know...she just frustrates me to no end!

[kittygirl02]

Legolas. I hate him and his "minion" of girls who obsess about how cute he is. And how much he does when he does basiclly nothing exept shoot at things and be lookout. Example: "Oh, he's so brave. He just shot that guy in his stomach!"
Retards.

[Lyta_Underhill]

kittygirl02, I can see your point about Legolas, now that the movies are out. He had not made a big impression on me in the books, but I did notice that he was as far from pretentious and self-absorbed as an elf could get, which is something in itself, especially now that I've read the Silmarillion and know how bad some of the Elves can get! (Ahem--THINGOL!--Ahem!) (Staves off already anticipated jibe about my Fëanor fetish by admitting it IS a fetish/conceit! smilies/wink.gif )

But back to the Elf in question: now that the "movie Legolas" is on the scene, it seems he is nothing more than a tool to show how cool and physically graceful the Elvish race is. The suggestion I've heard that he give Wormtongue his comeuppance by shooting an arrow straight up and waiting for it to come down into Wormtongue's skull from above is ludicrous, but knowing the primacy of the "obligatory Legolas stunt", I have little doubt that it may come to pass in ROTK. It saddens me to contemplate such a turn, because it would really cheapen Legolas' character for me for the sake of show. Then again, I can hold out hope that it won't happen...and last of all, I can return to the books, where Legolas really IS Legolas and Frodo doesn't drop his sword before the Witch King on Weathertop and my favorite Ford of Bruinen scene is just as it should be...and after all, the wellspring is my comfort!

Oh, welcome to the Downs, BTW, and I hope you will find comfort among the chatty dead! smilies/smile.gif

Cheers,
Lyta

[Daisy Brambleburr]

I wouldn't say that there are any characters that I absolutly deteste, but there are some that I have 'issues' with.
Lots of people like Legolas, but I can't see it myself. He did quite a lot in TTT, but suddenly vanished in RotK and then turned senile and wandered about singing about the Sea all the time.
Butterbur really irritated me when he didn't send Gandalf's letter. I was like 'FOR GOODNESS SAKE! It's NOT THAT HARD!' Man alive!!
I also think that the way Denethor treated Faramir was unforgivable.

[Jack]

Elrond... Dude I am sorry but he is really, really out there! (nothing against elves mind you!)

[the phantom]

Elrond... Dude I am sorry but he is really, really out there!
Only the Elrond in the movies.
now that I've read the Silmarillion and know how bad some of the Elves can get! (Ahem--THINGOL!--Ahem!)
Yeah, I wasn't too fond of Thingol. Actually, I wasn't too fond of his brother (Olwe) either.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I am not too fond of the Dwarves they all seem a little to selfish and greedy. But that's just my opinion, however I do like Gimli.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I also want to add this, I like all of the good guys the same, there isn't one that I like less than another, however there is one good guy I like the most and that is Aragorn.

[miellien]

I don't know about anybody else, but Prince Imrahil just gets on my nerves. "Movie-Faramir" also irks me. smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Enif]

First of all.... Elrond.... dude I love elves but what's the matter with that guy!?
Second... "movie Faramir" that is an evil clone of the real Faramir!
Third... Sam. the "worshiping Frodo" thing is a bit to much for me.

[lady evenstar]

I nevr really liked Elrond because he didn't let Arwen go and stay with Aragorn in The Two Towers and he was like putting her down and stuuf. It's just rude. I'm sure he wouldn't like her telling him that he can't go with the person he loves.

[Kalimac]

Have to cast my vote for Tom Bombadil. In himself, he's an interesting character, but "The House of Tom Bombadil" slams on the brakes to a story that was previously pacing itself really well. I kept on wishing he would just be quiet and let the hobbits pack and get out of there. He just gets my goat for some reason.

I probably would have voted for Denethor, as well, except that I have a hard time putting him in the "good guy" category - granted, we don't get to see him at his best, and he probably did good things in his time, but he seems to have no real concept of what it is to join with anybody, good or evil. He's for himself.

[kittygirl02]

Daisy Brambulber, all I have to say is that Butterbur is, well a typical innkeeper. "Baraliman Butterbur, a fat innkeeper who only remembers his own name because people shout it at him all day!"

And they made up Elrond's charactar for the movie, or enhanced it somewhat so that it looks like Liv Tyler is so tortured and cannot be with Aragorn. I hate that how they have to make up some love story so that more people(With a boyfriend/girlfriend) can watch it in the theatre and make out with each other. Sickos..

[Seagull Jonathan L.]

Arwen.I always hated her.I dont know why,but I do.

[Eggy]

How long can somebody keep a grudge, I mean come on Elrond give it up!!!! So men got in your bad books three thousand years ago, its not like they are still around, you can blame the son for the sins of their father's. And second is it just me or sam likes frodo a bit too much if u know wat i mean, im all understanding of loyalty and all that but its all a bit too much in my opinion...
smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Don't hate Legolas because an actor who has played the part of Legolas has thousands of female fans who only like him for his looks.

And Finwe, I take exception to your criticism of Finarfin. Why do you dislike him? Because he didn't rebel against the Valar? Why should he follow Feanor after all the nonsense he pulled?

I'll be predictable and vote for Feanor. I realise how great he was and all, but he did so many bad deeds that I cannot easily forgive him.

[kittygirl02]

Arwen, I always hated her.I don't know why, but I do.

*claps and murmurs AMEN!*

Yes, I cannot quite pt my finger on why I hate Arwen, but I know i do hate her.
Perhaps it is because my friend(In my presance and who is a guy)said she was hott.
I don't know why that bothers me, but when people say "hott", it just makes me angry.
And how "Oh Arwen, I love you, but I can't be with you." That reminds me of Star Wars (Anakin and Amidala)
And for some reason, I've always hated barbies,(Seriously, I used to do some wacked out things to them) and girls who don't do anything and are so annoyingly perfect.
Maybe it is my imperfect self who is secretly jealous of all who seem to be perfect.

[Seagull Jonathan L.]

BAAAAAAAAAAM.Exactly.Arwen reminds me of Barbie. I hate those good girls in life,and I hate them in fiction. I am not saying that every girl should take a sword and kill all bad guys,but Arwen-type is too much.

[kittygirl02]

*Hug you*
YES< I know what you mean.
I'm not the girliest person in the world, yet I still wear makeup and skirts(From hot topic of course)
But in real life, I cannot stand girls who do makeovers and disscus makeup in depth(What is there to disscus!)
And I think if you like that stuff, it's fine.
But get a fricking brain if that's all you talk about!!!!

[the phantom]

Elrond.... dude I love elves but what's the matter with that guy!?
I nevr really liked Elrond because he didn't let Arwen go and stay with Aragorn ... he was like putting her down ... It's just rude.
How long can somebody keep a grudge, I mean come on Elrond give it up!!!!
Don't keep calling him Elrond. Elrond in the movie was NOT Elrond, just like Faramir in the movie was not Faramir.

Please refer to him as "movie-Elrond", because that's what he is. The real Elrond was not like that at all.
I'll be predictable and vote for Feanor. I realise how great he was and all, but he did so many bad deeds that I cannot easily forgive him.
He really didn't do that many "bad" deeds.

He drew his sword on his brother, but in his mind it was justified (because he had been influenced by Melkor's lies), and the sword incident resulted in Melkor's malice being uncovered (a very good thing).

Even the most insane of Feanor's actions (eg when he burned the Teleri's ships) were the best possible way to bring about good in the world. The threads below explain everything quite well. They're worth the read (it won't take too long, just a few minutes, the first thread is specifically about Feanor, the second is about the Noldor as a whole).
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003412
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000038&p=

(by the way, it's on the 2nd page of the first thread that I explain why burning the ships was a good thing)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

He perpetrated massacre, theft and vandalism all in a few days, plus threatened his half-brother with death. He is a compelling character but he was blinded by his own arrogance I think.

Anyway, how funny that Arwen should be getting brutalised on this page. I don't recall hearing that she splashed on makeup and sat in front of the mirror all day, glorifying her beauty. She's quite innocent in my view, and not really worthy of such fierce criticism.

[Seagull Jonathan L.]

Exactly,she is inocent. Innocence annoys me. Of cource you will be innocent sitting behind fathers back, protected.

[Lyta_Underhill]

BAAAAAAAAAAM.Exactly.Arwen reminds me of Barbie. I hate those good girls in life,and I hate them in fiction. I am not saying that every girl should take a sword and kill all bad guys,but Arwen-type is too much.
Hmmm....methinks this character is more properly called "movie-Arwen," for she did not do the warrior princess thing in the books and appeared very sparingly (appropriately!). I would agree with Eomer of the Rohirrim that Arwen is innocent, but I would also add that she is insightful enough to offer Frodo a way out when no one else had done so (it was she who gave him her token to cross over the Sea to the Undying Lands (or at least Tol Eressea) to seek healing.) I wouldn't say Arwen is completely innocent, but she is good hearted in a way that many others in Middle Earth were not or wouldn't have been in a position to be.

Cheers,
Lyta

[the phantom]

He perpetrated massacre, theft and vandalism all in a few days
But you must always take things in context. Beren perpetrated theft and murder but he is swiftly excused, rightfully so, because of the who, why, what, and so on surrounding his deeds.

In the other threads I attempted to put Feanor's (and the Noldor's) deeds in perspective, rather than just stating "he did this and that, and he's bad".

My arguments in the other threads state that Feanor and the Noldor were created in such a way that their flight to ME was inevitable (and not good to stop, for Tolkien even stated in his letters that the Noldor's war on Melkor was the best conceivable way to expend his energy while doing the smallest amount of harm to the world). The flight of the Noldor was Eru's plan.

Feanor was specifically wired and put under certain circumstances so that he'd do what was necessary to get the Noldor to ME in time to fulfill their destiny.

Angry Hill Troll, at the end of the 2nd page of thread one, does an excellent job of proving the value and necessity of Feanor's actions and states that they were the remedy for Manwe's inaction (something Eru chided Manwe for in HoME).

Feanor gets trashed a lot more than he deserves considering both the circumstances and necessity of his actions and all the good (for all of ME) that he accomplished.

(if you don't have time to read the threads at least read Hill Troll's post, it's a great one)

[The Saucepan Man]

The threads below explain everything quite well.

I might add that the threads that the phantom has linked to also include some very well-argued posts from those who disagree with his analysis, of whom there are many. smilies/wink.gif

[the phantom]

include some very well-argued posts from those who disagree with his analysis
Disagree with the analysis, yes. Rule out and 100% not accept the analysis, no.

The other people, while personally interpreting things such as fate and Eru's plan differently, were intelligent and respectful enough to know that my analysis was not an impossibility. To the dismay of many Tolkienites, there are many areas of grey in his works that allow the reader to draw his own conclusion.

Feanor is one of these grey areas, and in case you didn't know, my purpose in life is to point people who dislike Feanor to the threads that discuss these grey areas. smilies/wink.gif

That way, even if they disagree with my view of fate and fulfilling Eru's will and instead choose to believe that Feanor is rotten, they at least understand the odd and twisted logic that makes Feanor the greatest being ever to live in my mind (and many others as well).

[ October 23, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I agree wholeheartedly that he is a grey area in Tolkien's stories. I'm just not too fond of him! But your argument is compelling phantom.

Anywho, regarding Beren. Please explain where in the book he perpetrated murder and theft.

[Jack]

mmm... I think I dislike Theoden *stares hard at spelling, shakes head sadly* is Boromir considered a good guy... I think so... I don't like him eather! But OK...

[the phantom]

Anywho, regarding Beren. Please explain where in the book he perpetrated murder and theft.
He killed lots of orcs and stole a Silmaril. smilies/wink.gif

I only mentioned his murder and theft in order to illustrate that almost nothing in and of itself is wrong, circumstances have to be considered. There's almost always a certain instance or situation in which a certain crime is acceptable.
I agree wholeheartedly that he is a grey area in Tolkien's stories. I'm just not too fond of him!
smilies/frown.gif Poor Feanor.
But your argument is compelling phantom.
This says to me that you pondered the alternatives but chose to keep your own opinion. That's the type of Feanor-disliker that I can get along with. smilies/wink.gif

[Airerûthiel]

I would probably say Celeborn, because to me he felt a bit superflulous to requirements - he never really seems to have much of a role in the story, which doesn't sit well with me (or maybe that's just the writer me liking everything and everyone to have a purpose). It just feels very un-Tolkien to include someone who, to me at least, felt like a completely irrelevant character.

[Maethorien]

I dislike Goldberry. I'm not exactly sure why. She just irritates me.

[Tinuviel of Denton]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anywho, regarding Beren. Please explain where in the book he perpetrated and theft.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


He killed lots of orcs and stole a Silmaril

I feel like adding to phantom's comments. (Hope you don't mind smilies/wink.gif )

Everybody loves Beren, myself included, and his actions are usually excused because they were against the 'bad guys.' There is, however, another 'good guy' who does a lot of things, most much worse than Beren's acts against the baddies, who is idolised by many, again, myself included. He killed his best friend, left the woman who loved him to die, married his sister, k.illed the man who told him she was his sister and that she had commited suicide when she discovered that fact, then .

Yep, I'm talking about Turin Turambar, the Mormegil, Agarwaen son of Umarth, etc. His actions would be inexcusable in most circumstances, but because he was cursed, no one really blames him.

I happen to be one of the people who agrees with phantom about Feanor, but I am in no way as articulate.

Anyway...

To answer the original question, I have to agree with some of the older posts, and say movie-Arwen. (though in the books, I don't really care about her. She doesn't do anything in there.) I hate to go along with the crowd, but movie-Arwen just gets on my nerves. To say the least.

And in the books, I suppose that I least like Barliman Butterbur. He just kind of irritates me. He's so stupid. (He isn't really, just absent-minded. But it drives me up the wall.)

EDIT: Stupid computer censors the stupidest things...

[ October 23, 2003: Message edited by: Tinuviel of Denton ]

[Urwen]

I dislike Maedhros. The elf (indirectly) caused death of my namesake! Curse him for that! And his Union too!:mad:

[Andsigil]

I dislike Turin. He's a bad combination of angst, impatience, melodrama, and horrible luck. He's depicted as wise, but we're left to guess exactly how (other than winning a few battles). He also makes me doubt the wisdom of elves as judges of character.

[Loslote]

I don't much like Luthien, actually. She was rather silly. "HI silly son of Feanor! Help me steal your shiny! I'm beautiful, why are you in love with me? And why are you keeping me from helping my boyfriend from stealing your shiny? Whaaa!"

:rolleyes:

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Hmm, this could get complicated. Dislike when I read one of the books, or when I see the movies, or when I read fanfic? In LotR, I have never liked Tom Bombadil (loon). In the Silmarillion, I don't care for Turin (depressing self-important twit). In TH... Well, I would probably say Beorn (not sure why). In Jackson's version, I really can't stand Sam or Aragorn (probably too complex to get into while typing with two fingers for the first time since high school). Fanfic can make me despise anyone, if it's badly written, but these days, I cringe at the mention of Frodo and Aragorn (too often handled badly).

[Lalaith]

Turgon is horrible. Remember the Fen of Serech. Ha!

[deagol]

The easy answer is Boromir, as he is in the tale for no other reason than to succumb to the ring, but I remember the very first time I read The Fellowship -- and that is longer ago than I care to share -- his stand in defense of Merry and Pippin was my favorite part of the saga. He was a sacrificial lamb and I've found it hard to hate him as time has gone by.

For me it's Galadriel. That whole business with the mirror just disturbed me. It was almost as if she was torturing Frodo and Sam. That and I just got the feeling that she was showing off, describing the terrible beauty they would all despair at, and then turning her nose up at it.

Drama queen


Bleaaaah!

[Eorl of Rohan]

My three favorite characters ever, Boromir and Feanor and Turin, so ruthlessly trampled upon... :( Is it *me* who has a strange taste, I wonder?

The Good Guy that I dislike the most would be King Elessar (Aragorn).
Does he really believe that the supposed royalty of his great-great-great-great-greatfather's ancestor gives him the right to boss people around?
Besides, I don't like characters with no moral conflicts and precious few flaws. Self-centered arrogant jerks.

[Eorl of Rohan]

Postscript.

All Hail Feanor and Boromir and Denethor and Turin!

[Mithalwen]

I don't much like Luthien, actually. She was rather silly. "HI silly son of Feanor! Help me steal your shiny! I'm beautiful, why are you in love with me? And why are you keeping me from helping my boyfriend from stealing your shiny? Whaaa!"

:rolleyes:


So glad I am not alone ... I really loathe Luthien but fear I have already used enough bandwidth here explaining why ...

[Galadriel]

Would it hurt to say Arwen? She is the most useless little damsel I have ever come across in Middle-Earth. I don't know what Aragorn sees in her, besides her beauty. Same with Beren. They're both like "Ohhh you're so pretty so let me just fall in love with you!" I mean, I know Tolkien based Luthien on his wife, and that's really sweet, but seriously, I despise this teenage infatuation stuff of 'love at first sight'.
I also find Aragorn a bit of a Gary-Sue. He is constantly compared with other characters and held up as "a mighty ruler, kingly, tall" blah blah blah.
*puffs* Now I feel evil :p

[Loslote]

Would it hurt to say Arwen? She is the most useless little damsel I have ever come across in Middle-Earth. I don't know what Aragorn sees in her, besides her beauty. Same with Beren. They're both like "Ohhh you're so pretty so let me just fall in love with you!" I mean, I know Tolkien based Luthien on his wife, and that's really sweet, but seriously, I despise this teenage infatuation stuff of 'love at first sight'.
I also find Aragorn a bit of a Gary-Sue. He is constantly compared with other characters and held up as "a mighty ruler, kingly, tall" blah blah blah.
*puffs* Now I feel evil :p

It would not hurt to say Arwen. That Undomiel chick (as I so fondly call her) didn't make my least favorite because I don't really care that much about her. :rolleyes:

But I do have to disagree with you about Aragorn. He is quite awesome, and not at all Gary-Suish - in my personal opinion. ;)

[Blind Guardian]

Arwen is annoying. I hate her part in the movies. What the heck, why not keep it original instead of letting that pesky girl to have a larger role! She seems to think she is so important! AGH!!

[Galadriel]

It would not hurt to say Arwen. That Undomiel chick (as I so fondly call her) didn't make my least favorite because I don't really care that much about her. :rolleyes:

But I do have to disagree with you about Aragorn. He is quite awesome, and not at all Gary-Suish - in my personal opinion. ;)

Yeah, he is pretty awesome, but I just feel that Tolkien kind of over-did his role.

[deagol]

Yeah, he is pretty awesome, but I just feel that Tolkien kind of over-did his role.

I would have to agree that the old Dunadan is a little over-the-top. A proper hero should have some endearing flaw that makes him seem at least marginally human or, lacking that, at least some inner demon to overcome beyond pining away for his dimensionless girlfriend. But for all that, he's hard not to like.

[Loslote]

I would have to agree that the old Dunadan is a little over-the-top. A proper hero should have some endearing flaw that makes him seem at least marginally human or, lacking that, at least some inner demon to overcome beyond pining away for his dimensionless girlfriend. But for all that, he's hard not to like.

He does have a flaw. He lacks self-confidence. Remember when he says, in the first chapter of TTT:

Alas! An ill fate is on me this day, and all that I do goes amiss.

And then later, in the same chapter:

And now may I make a right choice, and change the evil fate of this unhappy day!

And, in the books at least, he does not "pine". You are thinking of the movie version. There is a difference.

[Galadriel]

I would have to agree that the old Dunadan is a little over-the-top. A proper hero should have some endearing flaw that makes him seem at least marginally human or, lacking that, at least some inner demon to overcome beyond pining away for his dimensionless girlfriend. But for all that, he's hard not to like.

Hmm. What I liked about Turin was the fact that he was a kick-*** warrior, but his pride got in the way too much. I'm bordering on not liking Aragorn, but not quite.
I liked Frodo too. For all his flaws, I can't imagine anyone else carrying the Ring to Mordor. I like the fact that he's notyour typical hero who just gets everything right (and is liked by everyone, and gets the girl, and gets a happy ending, and gets whatever he always wanted). He is a realistic hero, and I appreciate that.

[ecthelion]

Hmmmm, I will have to say the guy that made me the most angry while reading the Silm. would have to be Thingol. mostly because he was just a little too protective of his daughter (who at that time would be quite old). He also treated Beren like he was an idiot and a thrall of Morgoth. The only thing that soothed my anger was the fact that he was nice to Turin and let him live in Menegroth.

[skip spence]

Gimli never did anything for me. I don't particularly dislike him but he is boring.

Beren I do dislike. He is a stubborn and selfish jerk. Luthien could've done much better.

[Nogrod]

The easy answer is Boromir, as he is in the tale for no other reason than to succumb to the ring, but I remember the very first time I read The Fellowship -- and that is longer ago than I care to share -- his stand in defense of Merry and Pippin was my favorite part of the saga. He was a sacrificial lamb and I've found it hard to hate him as time has gone by.I think the fact he was the sacrificial lamb in the end actually relieves him but not because of his sacrifice but because the prof was so cold with him and then only used him as a puppet to fill his needs.

I mean it starts great, he's the man who sees the problem and wants good, and acknowledges the insanity of Gandalf's plan. And let's be fair; Tolkien was the omnipotent creator so he could decide Gandalf would be right against all the possible odds. In any realistic scenario Boromir would have been right (and the downfall would have been inevitable to be sure). Boromir is the voice of reason, Gandalf and Frodo the voices of supernatural folly - and Aragorn the nerd can't decide... :)

So I really like him up to the last scene where he appears. Okay we can discuss whether he had a choice but to defend Merrry and Pip but I think it would have been an ending more suitable for him to try and take the Ring (which is a big thing) and not to die defending the hobbits (which is a small thing). With that scenario he still could have failed (Frodo got to the boat first and Boromir was killed by the orcs on the shore, followed the trio to Mordor, or anything), but it would have made him a more believable character. And surely it was up to the prof to make the setting for that last scene, so he could have made it such where Boromir had a chance to decide.

You say that then Merry and Pip would not have survived and then the Witch-King would not have died etc? Exactly so. That only proves Boromir was not a character in his own right to the prof but only a pawn to take his place in the overall plot. Similarly Aragorn's decision to go after the two hobbits instead of following Frodo / riding to Gondor, is both incredible and stupid if you look at it from the POV of the characters involved. Tolkien of course knew what he wished and what he was going to do, but the believability of his characters is pretty low.

Heh, sorry about the rant. I like the books, even the LotR, but I do dislike some decisions the prof made there and how they make certain characters to look.

[Nerwen]

I think the fact he was the sacrificial lamb in the end actually relieves him but not because of his sacrifice but because the prof was so cold with him and then only used him as a puppet to fill his needs.

I mean it starts great, he's the man who sees the problem and wants good, and acknowledges the insanity of Gandalf's plan. And let's be fair; Tolkien was the omnipotent creator so he could decide Gandalf would be right against all the possible odds. In any realistic scenario Boromir would have been right (and the downfall would have been inevitable to be sure). Boromir is the voice of reason, Gandalf and Frodo the voices of supernatural folly - and Aragorn the nerd can't decide... :)

Nog, I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere– in fact I know it has– but Boromir was "right" only according to his limited information (or rather, what information he accepted- see below). The Ring would have corrupted him.

And it's not like he was really trying to usher in a new age of rationality in to superstition-ridden Middle-earth. Otherwise, wouldn't he have seen the Ring as a worthless trinket?

After all, if you're willing to believe people when they tell you a piece of jewellery will confer untold power, you might want to think about paying attention when those same people tell you its power is evil and too dangerous to be used. Boromir was awfully selective in what he chose to believe. Not that smart, really, is it?

And yes, I do think Boromir is an interesting and in many ways admirable character– but don't make him into an infallible Gary Stu, please.

So I really like him up to the last scene where he appears. Okay we can discuss whether he had a choice but to defend Merrry and Pip but I think it would have been an ending more suitable for him to try and take the Ring (which is a big thing) and not to die defending the hobbits (which is a small thing). With that scenario he still could have failed (Frodo got to the boat first and Boromir was killed by the orcs on the shore, followed the trio to Mordor, or anything), but it would have made him a more believable character.

Nog, I don't see the difference, sorry.:confused: Why "more believeable"?

And surely it was up to the prof to make the setting for that last scene, so he could have made it such where Boromir had a chance to decide.

You say that then Merry and Pip would not have survived and then the Witch-King would not have died etc? Exactly so. That only proves Boromir was not a character in his own right to the prof but only a pawn to take his place in the overall plot.

Okay, Nogrod... I guess you and I have radically different ideas on novel-writing. I always think an author should be willing to sacrifice a character for the good of the story, and that a book can go south very fast indeed when that principle is ignored.

I mean, in the end, all fictional characters are– as you say– just puppets.

Besides– in your scenario Merry and Pippin (and later, Eowyn) would have died: would that not also have been a "cold" decision on the part of the author?

Similarly Aragorn's decision to go after the two hobbits instead of following Frodo / riding to Gondor, is both incredible and stupid if you look at it from the POV of the characters involved. Tolkien of course knew what he wished and what he was going to do, but the believability of his characters is pretty low.

So, you've used this word "believable" twice, and each time– as far as I can work out– you seem to apply it to situations where characters make an emotional rather than rational decision (to aid the weakest rather than the more valuable members of their party). Now, you can certainly criticise those decisions, alright– but I'm not sure the issue is one of believability.

And no, the above does not mean I think Tolkien– or any author– is above criticism. Rather, I really disagree with what seems to be the principle underlying your arguments here.

[Inziladun]

After all, if you're willing to believe people when they tell you a piece of jewellery will confer untold power, you might want to think about paying attention when those same people tell you its power is evil and too dangerous to be used. Boromir was awfully selective in what he chose to believe. Not that smart, really, is it?

That's the crux of why I don't have a great deal of sympathy for Boromir. He was privy to the same information regarding the Ring as the other members of the Fellowship. However, pride being such a large factor in his makeup (as it was in his father), he discounted the words spoken by Elrond, whom he had journeyed so far and through such perils to hear.
If you want to blame Denethor for Boromir being what he was, I can only point to the fact that his brother had the wisdom and humility to know he did not have the power to claim the Ring, and that was without the benefit of having heard the Council of Elrond.

[Nogrod]

Nerwen: I think we have a major communication breakdown here. It might be my broken English or hastiness to say things too bluntly or whatever...

Besides– in your scenario Merry and Pippin (and later, Eowyn) would have died: would that not also have been a "cold" decision on the part of the author?Why would they have died? If Tolkien wished them to live he could have written the story differently so that they would not have been in the same dangers... or he could have written them escaping those dangers differently. :)

I mean, in the end, all fictional characters are– as you say– just puppets.Absolutely. But you can either make them logical or not (and that means also the logicality of their feelings; not in a way anyone should "feel logically" but that their emotions are "believable" given the character).

Boromir was "right" only according to his limited information (or rather, what information he accepted- see below). The Ring would have corrupted him.Of course it would have. I actually said that in my post. (and the downfall would have been inevitable to be sure)


And it's not like he was really trying to usher in a new age of rationality in to superstition-ridden Middle-earth.Nope. He wished to wield it in the service of Gondor (so he had to believe in the Ring's force!) - and he didn't take Gandalf's (and others') warnings seriously enough. Looking at his character he should have followed that path and not turn into this nice-guy-hero thinking more of two unrelated hobbits than the future of Gondor, the men and good against evil; the key to which was the Ring he should have sought after - according to his beliefs!

And yes, I do think Boromir is an interesting and in many ways admirable character– but don't make him into an infallible Gary Stu, please.I am not and I never was. I'm just saying that the prof built him as a certain kind of character and then made him act against the character he was built to be to serve his plot.

But yes, I'm not willing to make this a row of any sorts.

[Nerwen]

Well, Nogrod, I understand what you mean now, and I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.

I will say that my own impression of Boromir leads me to think that his saving the hobbits is not out of character– which I guess is what you mean by "believability". As far as I can work out, what you're saying here is that since (in your view) Boromir's wanting to take the Ring is highly logical, all his actions should be logical also. He seems to me more of an impulsive type. After all, he didn't just play down the dangers of the Ring, he basically chose to ignore them.

I just don't think Boromir was written as a ruthlessly brilliant strategist, who would always make the smartest, most expedient choice rather than the "moral" one, or anything like that. I think you might be reading things into the character that aren't really there.

And no, I don't want a row either... but you know, this is all reminding me weirdly of Urwen's "Lalaith".:D

[Nerwen]

That's the crux of why I don't have a great deal of sympathy for Boromir. He was privy to the same information regarding the Ring as the other members of the Fellowship. However, pride being such a large factor in his makeup (as it was in his father), he discounted the words spoken by Elrond, whom he had journeyed so far and through such perils to hear.

Oh, I have sympathy for him. People in the real world choose to believe what they want to believe all the time. I think Boromir is flawed in a very human way. What I'm disputing is that he was actually "right", or that because of this he should be considered a mastermind whose later actions are out of character. Which I think is what Nog's saying.

[Nogrod]

I do agree to disagree... :)

What I'm disputing is that he was actually "right", or that because of this he should be considered a mastermind whose later actions are out of character. Which I think is what Nog's saying.I do not consider him a mastermind of any sort. On the contrary I see him as highly passionate and erring person who wishes for good and honour over all else. And that is exactly the mindset that would drive him to pursue the ring - not in a rational way but as the strongly emotional character he is (and given the information he had). I mean you know there are many kinds of emotions and giving your heart to the little-ones who suffer is just one of them. There are people who truly love their country, or good against evil, or God or whatnot, and are set in flames whenever they see those things dear to them in danger. I just think Tolkien built Boromir as someone whose deep emotions ran for his city, his country and for good against evil... and then he changed him to suit his plot.

But yeah, let's not make this into a "Lalaith-discussion". :D

It's not that important anyway...

[Nerwen]

\I do not consider him a mastermind of any sort. On the contrary I see him as highly passionate and erring person who wishes for good and honour over all else. And that is exactly the mindset that would drive him to pursue the ring - not in a rational way but as the strongly emotional character he is (and given the information he had). I mean you know there are many kinds of emotions and giving your heart to the little-ones who suffer is just one of them. There are people who truly love their country, or good against evil, or God or whatnot, and are set in flames whenever they see those things dear to them in danger. I just think Tolkien built Boromir as someone whose deep emotions ran for his city, his country and for good against evil... and then he changed him to suit his plot.

But yeah, let's not make this into a "Lalaith-discussion". :D

It's not that important anyway...

No, but actually I find that I want to add something after all:

Look, my interpretation of what happens is that Boromir simply gives into temptation, that this is in large part due to the influence of the Ring itself, and that it works not just on his desire to fight evil and protect his country, but also on his personal pride and ambition.
"...What could not Aragorn do? Or if he refuses, why not Boromir? The Ring would give me power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!"

Boromir strode up and down, speaking ever more loudly. Almost he seemed to have forgotten Frodo, while his talk dwelt on walls and weapons, and the mustering of men: and he drew plans for for alliances and glorious victories to be; and he cast down Mordor, and became himself a mighty king, benevolent and wise.


I don't think it's an accident that this is extremely similar to Galadriel's "In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen," or Sam's fantasies in Mordor:
...he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the age, striding acriss the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-Dur. And then all the clouds rolled away, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit.

After this, Boromir, his face "hideously changed" suddenly tries to take the Ring by force, then, when Frodo gives him the slip, has hysterics– firstly screaming abuse after him, then bursting into tears.

Does any of this really sound like someone trying to accomplish a thought-out plan, to which he is firmly committed? Does it even sound like someone whose mind is working normally? As Boromir himself says, "a madness" took him. Betraying the trust placed in him by trying to seize the Ring is what's out of character for him, I think– but intentionally so.

So, this is all now completely OT for this thread. I just wanted make a further comment, because I've noticed that it's become pretty common for Tolkien fans, in defending this character from the demonizing treatment he gets in some quarters (he's an evil monster in about 90% of fan-fiction:rolleyes:) to go the other way and claim that he was really smarter than everyone else, or that his motive were entirely pure. Which I don't think is supported by the actual text of the novel.

[Galadriel]

I dislike Maedhros. The elf (indirectly) caused death of my namesake! Curse him for that! And his Union too!:mad:

Why, what an improper reason to hate my dear Russandol! :p