Who was the greatest??????

[Alatar_69]

In everyones opinion who was each races greatest hero and or villain (eg Elves= Fingolfin and Maeglin)

[burrahobbit]

Ah, dear Alatar_69, this is not a matter of opinion (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001236).

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

I'm just going to toss this out there for the heck of it. I can hear burrahobbit sharpening his graph-drawing pencil already, but what the heck.

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

We have that quote from JRRT, THE MAN HIMSELF. Unequivocal, unassailable, undeniable, unbendable. I was just wondering if that quote could be seen as an opinion? Yeah, yeah, before you go and slap me with the reality stick, I know JRRT created ME and in his capacity as the creator knows all and is the final authority blah blah blah. Bear with me here. I can't quote chapter and verse, but in my readings of JRRT's commentaries I got the sense that at times he felt like he was "discovering" ME and finding out about its histories rather than inventing them. I know that is a fiction used to describe the creative process, but more authors than Tolkien have said words to the effect that the story takes on a life of its own. That the characters and events seem to move and act and they "find out" how it goes.

If you can accept that as a valid point of view, that quote of JRRT could be considered an opinion.

Personally, I would not have chosen Luthien or Feanor as the greatest if it were up to me (yeah I know it isn't). I can see the case for Galadriel though.

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

[Manwe Sulimo]

And the best of the Dwarves...?

Dúrin I, of course!

Hobbits?

Frodo!

Men?

Tough one, but go with Beren, Túrin, Elendil, or Aragorn.

Orcs?

Uhhhh....damn....

Maiar?

????

Valar?

Manwë!

And so on.

[Legolas]

I echo Manwe's nominations along with the following...

Man? Hurin. [Edit: I originally had "Aragorn." This was a random first-thought pick. When I think of the First Age, I generally don't think of men because of the Silmarillion's focus (and my interest's focus) on elves. After a discussion in the chat with obloquy, I revised my pick to Hurin, who, along with Turin and maybe Elendil, would be "greater" than Aragorn. Aragorn was great, but his greatness was even more apparent because of his lack of competition. He lived in different times that had different, easier conditions. He was a fine representation of man's former greatness, though.]

Maia? Olórin or Eönwë?

Whether Tolkien's feelings were more a feeling of "discovery" or whatever, he was, in fact, inventing this world. When Tolkien's thoughts are an opinion or something he is unsure, he usually denotes them as such.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I agree with Aragorn, being slightly higher than Beren.

[lathspell]

I'd actually go for Elendil or even better: Elros

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

I'd say Beren. He faced Morgoth, stole a Silmaril (with help), and married Luthien. If you've seen burrahobbit's graph, Luthien maxed the scale in the "hotness" index, so that carries weight for Beren. He navigated through Dungortheb where all Ungoliant's spawn lived, and came to Doriath "by paths that no Man nor Elf else ever dared to tread" and the Girdle of Melian could not stop him. He went to the Halls of Mandos and came back. Here on earth we have only one guy who came back from the dead. Beren has a pretty impressive resume.

[Legolas]

My problem with rating Beren that high is his judgement. He had quite a bit of potential, but devoted all to getting a peice. I wonder myself if Elros would've proved himself great had he been given a test. I never thought much of Elrond save his wisdom, but Elros was obviously of a different mindset since he chose to be a mortal.

[Alatar_69]

Honestly I think that greatest among the men was Beren.Not many other man could say they dared the malice of both Morgoth and Carcharoth and survived.

[Meela]

sauron. to have the dream of taking on a whole world is pretty amazing. i would love to do it.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

I can think of worse motovations than doing all the things Beren did for the love of his woman. He does lose points because his acts were centered around himself and Luthien. I don't think Elrond or Elros match up. Elrond chose to be of the Firstborn, and Elros just lived a long time and was the first King of Numenor. Seems like we don't know a whole lot about him.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Beren was totally bailed out by Luthien, the Greatest though she may be. But you're totally right about maximum points for Beren for getting Luthien in the first place, the hottest of the hot.

Aragorn's resume is pretty damn good too. Maybe we overlook it because it's so familiar to us.

[Peri]

Well, hmm, I'm really going to have to think about that one. Well, for the hobbits, I think that Smeagol was the worst and the best. Worst because he is the portayal of a hobbit in its worst and most wretched form. Best because, if it hadn't been for him, the ring would have never been destroyed and would have ended up in the hands of Sauron in the end.

[Bill Ferny]

The most powerful uruk-hai was Lurtz. smilies/rolleyes.gif

Was that milk that just sprayed from between Burrahobbit's pursed lips? I'm hungry for apples, ok? Hurl away!

[burrahobbit]

No. I don't do spit takes for things like that, only for really funny things. I did think "I WILL DESTROY YOU," though. But I think that a lot, so don't feel too bad.

[Ringannunwen]

I think some of the greatest elves may be the ones that go unnoticed.
for intance, Lindir, might have done something great that changd the course of history, but no-one new anything about it.
Lindir? you might ask, ahhh, that is my little secret for the time being.

[Rose Cotton]

I've just finnished the Sil so I know all about those great heros. However, there's still one hero from Lord of the Rings that has stayed close to my heart. He's brave and kind and loyal. And he's also one of the smallest:

Samwise Gamgee, the greatest hero of them all.

[Legolas]

Lindir was the elf who Bilbo spoke with after his song in Rivendell.

Secret is out!

[Orald]

The real question is who is Imin?

[Orual]

High-five me, Rosie! Sam Gamgee was the greatest hero ever. Not only in Middle-earth. I'm talking ever. Ever-ever. Brave and loyal and faithful and devoted and humble and...I'd better stop now or I won't be able to.

~*~Orual~*~

[busybee]

Elves- FINGOLFIN!!

[Aragorn186]

Aragorn was the bravest, most crafty character of them all. What a cool guy...

[the witch king]

for men i would say Ar-Pharazon is the worst and the best Beren

[Alatar_69]

thanx everyone for ur replies I do also think that Aragorn's achievements are highlighted by the lack of competition so therefore that is y I would choose a first or second age man smilies/cool.gif

[the witch king]

elves=Feanor
men=Ar-Pharazon
dwarves=Durin I
maiar=Sauron
valar=Manwe(or Melkor)
dragons=Glaurung
orcs=Azog

[the phantom]

For the debate on greatest man, check out http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002467.

Here's my opinions: (note, I said opinions, not answers)

Race: greatest hero/greatest villain
Men: Turin or Hurin/Witch King
Elves: Feanor/Eol
Hobbits: Frodo/Ted Sandyman
Ainu: Manwe/Melkor
Maia: Olorin/Sauron