zifnab
03-04-2002, 02:54 PM
Does Mandos summon the spirits of fallen Maiar, to his “Halls of Waiting”, and if so, where are they kept and for what purpose?
Mandos and his halls seem to be a very vague subject. A subject that leaves me with little answers and more questions. Ok, here goes some facts and thoughts about Mandos.
1. Mandos – (Namo{True name}) – Ainur/Valar– One of the Feanturi and one of 8 in the order of the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda.
2. Mandos was the “The Doomsmen of the Valar” and keeper of the slain in his Halls in the west of Valinor.
The Halls of the Mandos were in Valinor, and it is where the Elves were sent after they were slain.
. “He is the keeper of the houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Iluvatar. He is the doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his judgments only at the bidding of Manwe.” – Valaquenta/Silmarillion
We also know he has foresight, a good example would be the “Doom of Mandos” to Feanor and followers, “…and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abode and yearn for your bodies, and find pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. – Of the Flight of the Noldor/Silmarillion[/I]
Most of the races have some belief in the “Halls of Waiting”, we know it is a fact for the Elves. And quite possibly the Men, and Dwarves. There is not much information, I have read, that tells me more about the last two’s ultimate fate. The hobbits and Ents, I have no clue.
Men and Elves - “For the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poigant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grows weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die instead, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.” – Of the Beginning of Days/Silmarillion
Men - “Some say that they go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of the Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainor.” – Of Men/Silmarillion
Dwarver - “For the say that Aule the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to the Fathers of old that Iluvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.” – Of Aule and Yavanna/Silmarillion
Ok now that, that is done I can move on to the subject “Does Mandos summon Maiar spirits after they are slain into the Halls of Waiting? Is he powerful enough to summon those spirits? And if/when they are summoned where do they recede in the Halls?
First off I would say, Yes he is powerful enough to summon the spirits to his Halls. If that is his duty of course. Although it is hard to prove, if he was that powerful and if that was his duty. Some example’s of Maiar spirits would be Saruman and Sauron, and maybe alittle bit of Gandalf.
When Saruman passes away it says, “…about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like the smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. Frodo looked down at the body with pity and horror, for as he looked it seemed that long years of death were suddenly revealed in it, and it shrank, and the shrivelled face became rags of skin upon a hideous skull. Lifting up the skirt of the dirty cloak that sprawled beside it, he covered it over, and turned away.” – The Scouring of the Shire/The Return of the King
It appears that the spirit of Saruman did in fact look for the “Undying Lands”, or even the “Halls of Waiting”, but was denied. One thing that is interesting is the way in which his body is suddenly transformed into a pile of nothingness. Much as the body of Feanors did when he passed on, “so fiery was his spirits that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke.” That is not the same, but both bodies are destroyed in one way or another.
Sauron’s seems a tad bit more confusing. In the Downfall of Numenor, it says,
“But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yes his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea.” – Akallabeth/Silmarillion
Now Sauron and Saruman were both Maiars. After Saruman is destroyed his spirit disolves into nothing, but Saurons continue to live, maybe with the help of the ring. But why didn’t Mandos or the Ainur at that time take care of Sauron’s spirits. Mandos was “all-knowing”, so I assume he knew what happened. After Saurons ultimate defeat in the “War of the Ring”, not much is said besides the destruction of Mount Doom and the area around it. And that a vast, impenetrable huge shadow rose up out of the destruction and,
“…stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed away, and then a hush fell.”
One could assume this is the spirit of Sauron, but instead of being summoned to Mandos, it is blown away much like Sarumans. Where do these spirits go? Is this what the End of the World, and the Last Battle will be, the totally destruction of these spirits, or the destruction of the world by these spirits after they take form again? Is that possible? Sauron has proved before it is, but that was with the ring. Will these spirits have anything to do with the release of Melkor? This seems unlikely, but who knows?
“…and he (Melkor) was cast into prison in the fastness of Mandos, whence none can escape, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man.” – Of the Coming of the Elves/Silmarillion
Gandalf seems to be the hardest to understand yet. After the battle with the Balrog, Gandalf says: “Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. Naked I was sent back-for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top.” This seems to confuse me even more. Gandalf is the only example of a good Maiar that has died, it is the most confusing one yet. Was his spirit summoned back to the Undying Lands, and then became Gandalf the White in spirit and came back to his body on the top of Celebdil? Or was his entire body turned to ash and dust, as the others had did, and came back in a new body? But was it Mandos who summoned him? .It seems I have read more about Gandalfs return from death (so to say), but I cannot remember where I read it, and what it says.
It seems that there is a separate “storage” for the bad apples, such as Feanor and Melkor(when he was there). And maybe others like Eol or Saeros. Is this where Sauran and Saruman would have gone, if they actually had gotten there? It seems that many of the bad apples were kept for a long period of time, for punishment I suppose.
Feanor – “…neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.” Silm
Saeros – “…and long would Mandos hold him.” UT/Narn I Hin Hurin
Would this punishment fit the corrupted Maiar, it fit Melkor for 3 ages.
smilies/rolleyes.gif
Mandos and his halls seem to be a very vague subject. A subject that leaves me with little answers and more questions. Ok, here goes some facts and thoughts about Mandos.
1. Mandos – (Namo{True name}) – Ainur/Valar– One of the Feanturi and one of 8 in the order of the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda.
2. Mandos was the “The Doomsmen of the Valar” and keeper of the slain in his Halls in the west of Valinor.
The Halls of the Mandos were in Valinor, and it is where the Elves were sent after they were slain.
. “He is the keeper of the houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Iluvatar. He is the doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his judgments only at the bidding of Manwe.” – Valaquenta/Silmarillion
We also know he has foresight, a good example would be the “Doom of Mandos” to Feanor and followers, “…and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abode and yearn for your bodies, and find pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. – Of the Flight of the Noldor/Silmarillion[/I]
Most of the races have some belief in the “Halls of Waiting”, we know it is a fact for the Elves. And quite possibly the Men, and Dwarves. There is not much information, I have read, that tells me more about the last two’s ultimate fate. The hobbits and Ents, I have no clue.
Men and Elves - “For the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poigant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grows weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die instead, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.” – Of the Beginning of Days/Silmarillion
Men - “Some say that they go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of the Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainor.” – Of Men/Silmarillion
Dwarver - “For the say that Aule the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to the Fathers of old that Iluvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.” – Of Aule and Yavanna/Silmarillion
Ok now that, that is done I can move on to the subject “Does Mandos summon Maiar spirits after they are slain into the Halls of Waiting? Is he powerful enough to summon those spirits? And if/when they are summoned where do they recede in the Halls?
First off I would say, Yes he is powerful enough to summon the spirits to his Halls. If that is his duty of course. Although it is hard to prove, if he was that powerful and if that was his duty. Some example’s of Maiar spirits would be Saruman and Sauron, and maybe alittle bit of Gandalf.
When Saruman passes away it says, “…about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like the smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. Frodo looked down at the body with pity and horror, for as he looked it seemed that long years of death were suddenly revealed in it, and it shrank, and the shrivelled face became rags of skin upon a hideous skull. Lifting up the skirt of the dirty cloak that sprawled beside it, he covered it over, and turned away.” – The Scouring of the Shire/The Return of the King
It appears that the spirit of Saruman did in fact look for the “Undying Lands”, or even the “Halls of Waiting”, but was denied. One thing that is interesting is the way in which his body is suddenly transformed into a pile of nothingness. Much as the body of Feanors did when he passed on, “so fiery was his spirits that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke.” That is not the same, but both bodies are destroyed in one way or another.
Sauron’s seems a tad bit more confusing. In the Downfall of Numenor, it says,
“But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yes his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea.” – Akallabeth/Silmarillion
Now Sauron and Saruman were both Maiars. After Saruman is destroyed his spirit disolves into nothing, but Saurons continue to live, maybe with the help of the ring. But why didn’t Mandos or the Ainur at that time take care of Sauron’s spirits. Mandos was “all-knowing”, so I assume he knew what happened. After Saurons ultimate defeat in the “War of the Ring”, not much is said besides the destruction of Mount Doom and the area around it. And that a vast, impenetrable huge shadow rose up out of the destruction and,
“…stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed away, and then a hush fell.”
One could assume this is the spirit of Sauron, but instead of being summoned to Mandos, it is blown away much like Sarumans. Where do these spirits go? Is this what the End of the World, and the Last Battle will be, the totally destruction of these spirits, or the destruction of the world by these spirits after they take form again? Is that possible? Sauron has proved before it is, but that was with the ring. Will these spirits have anything to do with the release of Melkor? This seems unlikely, but who knows?
“…and he (Melkor) was cast into prison in the fastness of Mandos, whence none can escape, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man.” – Of the Coming of the Elves/Silmarillion
Gandalf seems to be the hardest to understand yet. After the battle with the Balrog, Gandalf says: “Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. Naked I was sent back-for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top.” This seems to confuse me even more. Gandalf is the only example of a good Maiar that has died, it is the most confusing one yet. Was his spirit summoned back to the Undying Lands, and then became Gandalf the White in spirit and came back to his body on the top of Celebdil? Or was his entire body turned to ash and dust, as the others had did, and came back in a new body? But was it Mandos who summoned him? .It seems I have read more about Gandalfs return from death (so to say), but I cannot remember where I read it, and what it says.
It seems that there is a separate “storage” for the bad apples, such as Feanor and Melkor(when he was there). And maybe others like Eol or Saeros. Is this where Sauran and Saruman would have gone, if they actually had gotten there? It seems that many of the bad apples were kept for a long period of time, for punishment I suppose.
Feanor – “…neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.” Silm
Saeros – “…and long would Mandos hold him.” UT/Narn I Hin Hurin
Would this punishment fit the corrupted Maiar, it fit Melkor for 3 ages.
smilies/rolleyes.gif