Gollum do you pity him or hate him?

[Yavanna Kementari]

Gollum is a sneaky little dart. But if you were in Frodo or Bilbo's place would you pity the poor creature or simply slay him? And how would you justify either action?
I used to be in Gollums shoes. Loving something That I couldn't have or liking something that was going to harm me. How about you?

[Manwe Sulimo]

Pity. 'Cause I'm a compassionate son of a gun.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I'd pity him. Actually, I might even have sympathy for him. Sometimes I feel like he does, but I won't get into that. I would definately not slay him. Besides, there is no way it could be justified. I'd try to help him and make friends with him. Besides, how could I kill him, I really don't think anyone deserves to die. I admire gollum too, he's very smart and cunning, very sly; instead of sneaky.

[Ithilelen]

I would take pity on him, why cause I know what its like to be cast out like that ;_; oh well, he redems himself in the end, kinda.

[Inwe]

I'd pity him.I've always liked Gollum, ever since I was 3 years old and watching the Hobbit cartoon....I don't think I could kill anyone or anything very easily...I have a hard time with fly swatters. It seems like he'd be a good person to have around, he can sneak around and spy on things, so you'd know what you're walking into.I don't know, I just like Gollum for some reason. It would be really hard not to pity him, the way he acts and looks and talks. Well, I've bored you all to death,I bet, so I'll shut up now.

[Coral]

I'd help him, he always seemed so helpless and confused to me...In fact I found myself hoping he would live and find some sort of redemption while reading the books...

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: Coral ]

[Yavanna Kementari]

Thanks for your replies guys keep'em coming. Alot of you are very compassionate.. something not found in an abundance any more.
It's seems that every one some how can liken themselves unto even the lowliest of creatures. Now think of that one person at school that every one picks on and hurts every day and pretend they are Gollum. A challenge if I might say, are you up for it?
Treat and pity them out wardly. Would you stick up for Gollum if some one were hurting him? Try it on, that person.. that "Gollum".
A kind thing spoken and a lesson learned you just may actually SAVE that Gollum from their END. smilies/smile.gif I challenge you Please don't forget to post if you meet my challenge and any posts are welcome smilies/smile.gif NAMARIE

[Yavanna Kementari]

Just me again I;m trying to get my avatar to show up hope it works g'night

[Nate]

i pitty Smeagol, i dont pitty Gollum.

[Farrehn]

All those I have met really hate the slimy little stinker, Gollum. But for some strange reason, I thought he was pretty cool. Though if I was in the position of Frodo or Bilbo, I have to say both! If I were in Bilbo's position, I would have killed him. Now don't get me wrong, I like the little creep and I have an extremely compassionate heart, especially for those in need. But freom a defensive standpoint, as in Bilbo's position, i think it would have been a wiser choice to kill a viper, before it turns and bites your heel. At that point, Gollum was seaking Bilbo and the Ring out to take back his Preciouse. . . and I doubt Gollum would have showed Bilbo any compassion, seeing as he was going to get the Ring so he could come and kill Bilbo. That is why I would have killed him in that situation.
But with Frodo, it would be quite different. Frodo knew the effects of the Ring, and out of anyone, could help Gollum the best. Before,. Bilbo did not know or could have done anything to help Gollum, save to end his misery. But Frodo was the master of the Ring, or at least it's bearer, and Gollum was proving himself helpless and in need of someone to rescue him. Gollum, when Frodo had him, was willing to help, and in the movie was actually turning out far better than before! If only Frodo would have kept Gollum's trust, then Im sure he would have come back. Besides, Frodo needed to believe he could forget the Ring, and return to a semi-normal life. So yeah, that's what I would have done. . . gee, sorry it's so long! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Yavanna Kementari]

No need to appologisw for lon posts. It's an in depth challenging topic and takes some time to explain. Thank you for posting smilies/smile.gif

[Gorwingel]

I am sorry, but unlike everyone else who is so compassionate, I have to agree with Sam, I don't pity him. Even though the Ring would probably never have been distroyed if it was not for him, I still think he should have been killed. Because he was very tricky. It would have been great if he could have been helped, and I would have loved to help him, but I just do not think it would be possible. Sorry. smilies/frown.gif

[Meela]

i pity him in a way

[Meela]

i think its because of the song he sang in ttt at the pool where faramir took the hobbits... something about the pool and how its nice and cool? it was so cute!

but i would pity him anyway

[Marsyas]

I do pity him because of what the ring has done to him, but in a sick kind of way I think he's one of my favorite character's. I wouldn't kill Gollum because of that. But if I did hate him, or dislike him, I would 'kill' him with kindness. You know, be overly nice and polite until it made him crazy......er.... smilies/biggrin.gif

[Nurvilya]

I pity him, as a vegan, I have much compassion for all living things. And as Smeagol he's just so darn cute. How could you kill the little guy?

[eowyn_uncaged]

i'm with sam, i wouldn't have trusted him, but i wouldn't have killed him either. he was a liar, and a sneak. but frodo knew the pain that the ring caused and that's probably the main reason he had pity for gollum. but as we see in the end, campassion was the only way the ring could have been destroyed, if you think about it... of course frodo couldn't destroy it, it would have destroyed him, in a way it did. but it is cool how both bilbo and frodo's pity made it possible for the good guys to win...

[nuguernachil]

i do feel sorry for him. it was entirely the fault of the ring that he ended up the way he was; if deagol hadn't found the stupid thing he would have lived out his happy hobbit life without ever worrying about sauron or mordor or any more of that evilish junk. he's more of a victim than a criminal.

[Orual]

I agree with Inwe. I do pity Gollum, and I wouldn't have killed him both because of that and because it's just not me. I can hardly bring myself to kill mosquitos, but after the West Nile outbreak it hasn't been as hard...

Gollum is, in essence, a drug addict, but an unknowing drug addict. He didn't know what the Ring was or what it would do to him; there weren't any "Just say NO to the Ring of Power" public service announcements. In some measure, he was a victim of circumstances. However, like Sam, I would certainly be wary around him and not trust him for a split-second, not as far as I could throw him. I pity him as a ruined, tortured creature, but that pity certainly wouldn't take me far enough to trust him.

~*~Orual~*~

[Durelin]

People think I'm wierd, even heartless when I say that i can find very little pity for Gollum. I am definetly with Sam. GO SAM! "Tie him up and leave him here!" I like that. "No, that would kill us!" I believe that is the point! I believe people should stop complaining about how you "feel like Gollum" because you have been outcast. Self pity leads you to an even more pitiful life than if you had put up with it and lived on doing your best. That's life, I've always been an outcast, but I have come to just live with that, I know I'm better than those who have outcasted me, partly because I do not outcast people, you should know that too. Smeagol was not able to do that, he was already a pretty corrupt person before the ring came to him. I mean, he killed his cousin before it ever had a chance to corrupt him.

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: Durelin ]

[Orual]

I think that even Sam pitied Gollum, to some extent. When he had a chance to kill Gollum, he didn't. It would have been justified--Gollum had just attacked them, after betraying them and leading them to what he had hoped would be certain death--but he didn't. So I think that his early "tie him up and leave him here" was simply mistrust rather than a lack of pity.

~*~Orual~*~

[Eruwen]

Well, if I came to face with a skitzsophrenic freaky Hobbit, I would back away slowly, and run as far as I could away from him. I would pity him afterwords though. But I wouldn't kill him. Weird as he is, you can't kill an awesome voice like that.

[Durelin]

I don't think he wanted to defy Frodo, you know how obedient Sam was to Frodo.

[Orual]

LoL, Eruwen! You're right! That's probably what I would end up doing. Except I wouldn't be backing up slowly, I'd be turning around and running as fast as my legs could carry me. Aiee!

Durelin, I agree that that's probably why Sam didn't kill Gollum at the beginning--you know, shoot first and ask questions later. But I stand firm in my opinion that after he saw Gollum, and saw what was happening to Frodo, and made the connection between the two, he did pity Gollum. He knew who Frodo was from long before the Ring came to him, and now he saw what Frodo was becoming. He could try to imagine what Gollum had been before the Ring had come to him. Like I said, he had the chance to kill Gollum in circumstances that would have justified it, but he didn't. So I think that in the end, it was more than obedience to Frodo that kept Sam from killing Gollum.

~*~Orual~*~

[Durelin]

Yeah, Sam might have pitied him, but I don't! Call me cruel, I don't give. Gollum is a worthless little WORM! Sorry, got carried away.

[Carlas]

I think hes cute but if i were in Frodos shoes(well he doesnt have shoes, but you get the idea), id kill him, so Sauron would rule middle-earth.Some hero id be smilies/frown.gif

[Orual]

Hindsight is 20/20, Carlas...most of us would probably have stabbed him, wham bam thank you ma'am, problem solved except it wouldn't be. As we sit here in front of our computers we've read the end of Return of the King, and know what a pivotal role Gollum played in the destruction of the Ring. But Frodo didn't. Sam didn't. Gollum didn't. If Frodo had killed Gollum, it wouldn't have been because he didn't want the Ring destroyed...he wouldn't have known that it would indeed be Gollum who was finally the one who secured Sauron's demise. Ironic, isn't it?

Heh, that's cool, Durelin, I was just standing up for my Sam. I can understand why you feel that way, and at certain points in the book I do too. But since hindsight is indeed 20/20, all in all I pity him.

~*~Orual~*~

[Yavanna Kementari]

Hallo It's me again I love all of your replies, and thankyou so much for them. I believe what Orual said is right; Hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20 and too bad it is. How many times in your life would you like to go back and change something in your life. Maybe say Good bye one last time to some one in the Shire before you left, Give Farmer Maggot and hand when you see his back is hurtin' him. Sadly what has been done has been done . But through this You have learned to enjoy every moment with the ones you love as though they were your last. And to be kind to others to keep your own conscience clear. Simple things like this can make all the difference. As I have said try to put this into a perspective. The Gollums that you see in every day life may have the power one day to help or ruin your Quest. So before you make the choice to slay some one,whether it be by words or literally tying him up and leaving him there, smilies/smile.gif think of how it is going to affect the rest of your life. You can never change what has been done and it may take a lifetime to try to aright it!! At any rate please keep your thoughts coming ALL thoughts are appreciated and welcome smilies/smile.gif and once again THANKYOU for your time and input smilies/smile.gif

[Lossentilien]

I think we should remember that Gollum is the evil side of Smeagol, so I pity Smeagol, cause he's got this inner battle with Gollum that he is losing. He does try to stand up to Gollum, the scene in TTT where he thinks he's won was so touching. He was just so happy that he was free, all the bad stuff wasn't really his fault cause Gollum was making him do it, and made him believe that he was alone and no-one cared for him. He was distraught about the thought of killing Frodo, so Gollum convinced him to get "her" to do it, the only reason he gave in was the mention of the ring. Again, his desire for it is driving him, he does not think rationally, as his need for it is blinding.

[Inwe]

Hi! It's me AGAIN!!!! smilies/smile.gif I kind of agree with al of you smilies/confused.gif I really like Smeagol, but his Gollum side is kinda freaky
I probably wouldn't have the heart to kill anything, unless it was a HUGE matter and something good would come of it. But I can see why Sam wanted to keep him tied up, too. I know everyone's already said all of this, but I felt like typing it all over again. Well, in the books, whenever I thought that they should kill Gollum, I tried to put myself in his place, and what he was doing sounded like a good idea to him. And, Gollum was kind of controlling Smeagol, and it was too hard for him to resist. And, I have to admit, he is so cute! How he talks, I mean, when he is smeagol. Anyway, I'll shut up now.

[Precious]

As my personal opinion-I neither pity nor hate him, but if I was Frodo or Bilbo I think my answer would probably be slightly different.

Taking it from Frodo's position, I would pity him. Having known all his previous history from Gandalf, I would sympathise with his circumstances. Living almost all your life being despised is not easy, especially when all the time you're being mentally tortured. I think Frodo understands what Sméagol (or Gollum) has had to live through, and as the ring begins to take hold of Frodo, he understands more and more the "Gollum" side of him too.

But, if I were taking the position of Bilbo, I think I wouldn't pity him, but I wouldn't necessarily want to slay him (but that would probably be more for the fact that if I was Bilbo I would be frightened of what he might want to do to me if I tried!). I think this because Tolkien seems to prtray him in a different light in The Hobbit when Bilbo meets him-he meets the Gollum side and not the Sméagol side. Therefore, I dont think there is particularly much to pity because Gollum deserves and appears to like his circumstances. All Bilbo sees him as is a "nasty creature that want to eat me".

If it was me then I would probably sympathise with him-but not pity him. I dont know why, but I just dont think pity is appropriate. I could relate to some of his circumstances, and I daresay I would like him. Well, the Sméagol side at least!

So all in all, I suppose I wouldnt want to kill him-from anyone's point of view-but I wouldnt necessarily like him if I was in certain characters positions either.

sorry this dragged on so much! Namaarie!

[Arien]

I didn't really pity at first....but then I felt really sorry for him and what he had been through. His character grew on me and I suppose I came to love him in the end (no, not in that way Andrew)....I was sad when he died....*sniff* smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif *remebers day she first read that page in RotK*

[red]

I have zero pity for that creature. If you read through The Shadow of the Past, you will see that Sméagol was evil from the beginning. He murdered before he ever touched the Ring. Both Frodo and Bilbo handled the Ring for years before it even started bringing out any malicious intent. No, Gollum was irredeemable because there was never any good to begin with.
Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him. ... The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path. (emphasis mine) -The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #181(credit to Sharkû for helping find the quotes)

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: red ]

[Daewen]

i pity him. most defenatly pity him

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Come on red, you have no pity for him? Well, that's fine I guess, but I have to disagree with what you said. I really dont think he was evil before the ring came along. When you said you will see that Sméagol was evil from the beginning.

Do you mean from birth or from the moment the ring was found by Deagol?

before he ever touched the Ring

Well that, I really have to disagree with. The ring has powers; it has a lure, and it can be extremely strong at times. What about Boromir? He almost killed Frodo before he touched the ri- no, actually he never touched the ring. So you can't tell me that no one wants the ring until you touch it. It doesn't matter. Just to be around it, to see it, to even know about it, it's enough to make a person do anything to get it. Just look at Saruman. He never touched it, he only heard about it and he bread armies to search for it. He even tried to make one more powerful. And Bilbo and Frodo never had to do anything to get it. Bilbo came across it by accident or the ring chose him. He did not have to kill anybody for it or take or steal it. Frodo inherited it, he also did not have to do anything to get it. And he even had knowledge of the ring. And besides, Bilbo might have killed for the ring. What if Gollum had the nerve enough to go himself and see what Bilbo's got in his pocketses? Bilbo didn't even put it on yet he was extremely reluctant to even let Gollum know he had the ring.

My point is that Smeagol was not evil before the ring, therefore, I think that if you didn't have pity because you thought he was evil, you should because he was not evil. But if you still have no pity, that's fine with me.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Faye Took]

I'd say, I would pity him. I don't kill things, not even spiders that crawl around on the walls, or even flies if they get into the house! I just can't. LoL.

[Daewen]

I agree with Willie. I mean, come on, even Sauron wasn't evil to begin with...and that's saying something. I honestly feel sorry for the poor guy. Especially since he tried so hard to overcome the ring, but just couldn't...although I don't think its possible for him to be positivly cured from it as long as it still existed. smilies/frown.gif

[red]

People, I'm not asking you to take my word for the fact that Gollum was no good before he got the Ring. Did you read the quote I supplied? Those are Tolkien's words.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I read your quote before and I read it again. Nowhere does it say he was evil before the ring. Mean is not evil. Tell me, have you ever been mean to someone? Probably yes, but that does not mean that you are evil. He may have been mean, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was evil.

You said there was never any good to begin with.

That, is not true. You can't say that because you don't know it. Tolkiens never said that he was no good before the ring. I mean, he actually might have been, but then again, he might not have. No one knows. We can't be sure, but most likely he wasn't always mean and most likely, there was good. How would he even have a friend in the first place if he was mean all the time and evil? I really don't think that Smeagol was evil, or always mean for that matter.

But anyways, do you still not pity him?

[red]

Read The Letters. Lots of gems of insight in there. Also, look up "mean" in the dictionary. I hardly think Tolkien meant Gollum simply stole candy from his little sister. Tolkien called him "mean and greedy" several times. I'm thinking he was leaning more toward the "characterized by petty selfishness or malice" and "below the normal standards of human decency and dignity" definitions. That sure sounds evil to me - which is also one to look up: "1 a: morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse> b: arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a man of evil reputation>". There we have it. Evil Gollum.

He also called Déagol mean and greedy. Birds of a feather... to answer your "How would he even have a friend in the first place..." question.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I would read the letters but I dont have a copy and know no one who does...anyways, yes, he was mean, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE WAS EVIL. Tell me, did Tolkien ever call Smeagol evil? And so what if he was usually greedy and mean, that doesn't make him evil and it doesn't mean that he was never good. And then, maybe Gollum was evil, but not all the time. If evil is sinful, I could call Sam an evil person. Don't take the word out of context. Go ahead and call him mean, greedy, selfish, even evil at times, but do not say that he was always evil. And I thought we were talking about the Smeagol part of Gollum. Youre really starting to confuse me here, so I'll just say my point again: Smeagol/Gollum wasn't 'no good' before he got the ring.

[red]

*yawn* I don't like repeating myself and I've said all that needs saying. My side stands on quotes and other references. Quite solid ground. G'night.

[Yavanna Kementari]

It is good to see you are still posting smilies/smile.gif Hope you had a Great Holiday Season. I will be back with a more indepth post later. I just wanted to stop in and say THANKYOU to all of you that have posted again or posted for the first time. If you are new Welcome to the discussion. To those of you that have returned " Wonderful to see you again." Keep those Great thoughts!!! No need to appologise for lenghthy posts that is what this thead is for! TO MAKE YOU THINK!! smilies/smile.gif
I must return to Valinor But I will be back soon -----------YAVANNA

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

red, your quotes don't back up what you were saying, but I hate repeating myself too. So I'll leave my side at what I said too. What's the point of arguing if there's no one to argue back? Well, it's been fun. smilies/smile.gif

[**sparkle fairy**]

i saw the TTT last night and I thought Gollum was unbelievably cute. So i guess i pitty him, because I just want to take him home and look after him.

[FarathrimMaiden]

I pitty poor smeagol and gollum. I am relieved a little to see that others of you sorta know what its like to be in gollums "shoes", because i thought i was the only one. To want something but its bad and you cant really think for yourself cuz it takes over. So i pitty him and Gollum's Song often reminds me of my own situation, so i suppose i sympathise, even relate to him. I cannot say i would be nice to him, though i would like to think i would, well i cant even say i wouldnt kill him (although i really wish i could say for sure that i wouldnt), i mean i ve never been in that situation, so how can i know? I hope each time i think of Gandalf saying "many that live deserve death , but many that die deserve life, can you give it to them? then do not be so quick to deal out death in judgement" (paraphrasing), i hope that i would be like bilbo, and then sympathize like frodo in the second book, but would i be like sam an call him names? i fear i might. and would i have killed him if i were bilbo? who knows, but from the safety of my home i can say that i certainly pitty him. sorry that wa long and rambling i must be getting sleepy..lol fatigue brings incoherent messages

[Yavanna Kementari]

I would like to thank you all for letting me know how you feel about Gollum.
I believe we all need pity some times and we should sometimes return pity in others favour. smilies/smile.gif Once a again I thankyou

Now Lets ask a new Question How many times would you forgive Gollum before you killed him? Have fun posting..!! smilies/smile.gif -Yavanna

[Yavanna Kementari]

How many times would you forgive gollum if you decided not to kill him?
~Yavanna

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: Yavanna Kementari ]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Hmmm....seems like you really want an answer. Well, I say it depends. It could be a few, a lot, or unlimited. I don't think I'd kill him unless I absolutly had to to save my life. But, I probably would give him the beating of his life if he attacked me after a fair warning. So, he wouldn't try it again. I've been taught to forgive, and patience is a virtue.

[Yavanna Kementari]

I agree whole-heartedly I just wanted to see how foegiving all of you are smilies/smile.gif~Yavanna

[Jian]

i pity him. he's a good soul influenced by an evil power. why hate him for something not of his control?

[Lily Ahern]

I never can be sure I mean I think he's a disgusting back stabbing creature but in other (twisted)ways he shows how loyal he can be even if it is to the one ring that could distory everything!I am totaly confused myself! smilies/tongue.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

Gollum is a pitiable character. Not truly evil, but corrupted by the Ring. He is totally driven by his desire for it. It is this that makes him act in the way he does. He wants to kill Bilbo for stealing it from him. And, when he is with Frodo and Sam, his purpose is to keep the Ring from being destroyed and, when the chance comes, get it back. At first, with Frodo and Sam, he settles for being close to it and, for a period, is moved by the kindness that Frodo shows him.

Ultimately, however, his desire is the Ring and this desire was always going to prevail in the end. I suspect that, throughout his journey with Frodo and Sam, he was merely biding his time.

I have always thought that Gollum first hatched his plan to lead them into Shelob's lair when they were before the Black Gate (or possibly before), rather than when he feels betrayed by Frodo at the Forbidden Pool. After all, he suggests that they go through the passage at Cirith Ungol knowing that it is Shelob's lair. He might kid himself that he is Frodo's friend, but deep down he wants that Ring.

So, pitiable, yes. But he wouldn't be my first choice of travelling companion if I was the Ringbearer.

[Taraithwen]

I pity him. As I was reading the books I really got into his character & I admired his conflict. In the movies, Andy Serkis did an amazing job of portraying him. Gollum is a truly pathetic creature. I feel for him, I can see how difficult it is for him. He's in a constant struggle with himself. Poor thing! smilies/frown.gif

[Yavanna Kementari]

* Yavanna Bows*
"Hail friends forgive me for being away for so long but trouble stirs in Middle Earth that most folk do not know of."

I agree with all of you! Very valid and intriguing answers. I love it when you think smilies/smile.gif Your posts are inspiring to me.

I hope to see all of you again very soon.
~*~*~*~* Yavanna *~*~*~*~

[Duncariel]

It was not completely Smeagol/Gollum's falt that he became as nasty as he is/was. The ring draws people to it for evil purposes. Frodo saw some good in Gollum that would show through every once in a while, like the time when he came upon Frodo and Sam sleeping next to each other. The "good" side, Smeagol, shows through. I believe that there was hope for him until Frodo betrayed him in Ithilien.

[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Duncariel ]

[Gollum]

I definately pity him. My screen name is what it is because I do like him, not because I hate him. It's not his fault! It all boils down to Sauron.

[Lily Ahern]

I've had some more thoughts on this topic .I pity him because the one ring is driving him insane smilies/eek.gif and is killing him bit by bit but mostly I hate hime because he he was in his own words false and tricksy I mean, he led the hobbits in to the lair of shelab! smilies/mad.gif so my pity for him is degrading quickly!

it is my own my love my precious (gollum)

[Frieda]

I'm often too nice for my own good....so I feel very sorry for him and would probably even go as far as to take him into my house for a while if I saw him outside, freezing in the cold winter that's out there right now. smilies/frown.gif

[doug*platypus]

Pity. And I also feel sorry for what he became, but glad that he had a chance to meet Frodo and let his good side come out. I don't think he died completely evil, and a lot of that was thanks to Frodo.

The scene on Mount Doom where he begs Sam to spare his life is really moving: "Dussst!" and all that. We get to see him in a situation where he knows he is about to die, but he does not have the calm resolution or clear conscience of someone like Théoden. I definitely feel sorry for him.

All of his evil deeds happen long before we get a chance to spend time with him, and I believe he is almost completely redeemed through his love for Frodo and his desire to be good Sméagol. Later acts like his betrayal of Frodo and Sam to Shelob were motivated by desire for the Ring. He had to see to both Sam and Frodo to get his precious back, although of course he did enjoy the thought of squeezing Sam's throat. He's despicable, but pitiable. Not, I think, evil.

[Vorrothiel]

I do not hate him.. Hate is a strong word... So I think I do pity him.. Inside him there is a good soul, but I don't think he should be too proud of his actions... smilies/wink.gif

[Ardwenna]

I would pity him. That doesn't mean that if he threatened me or became a danger to my life or a danger to the one I was bound to (like Samwise and Frodo) I would have to kill him. *shrug* How can you hate someone who is so twisted and miserable and filled with such longing?

[Yavanna Kementari]

Hullo all!
Sorry it has been so long I have had some malfunctions with my profile and such. I wasn't able to sign in and the message was I didn't exsist. I am glad to see you all are still thinking. I will be back more often now that I am ..ME smilies/smile.gif
-(~<~> Yavanna

[balrogman]

id slay him cause he stinks lol and he really needs a toupee cas hes balder than my grandfather!! smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Yavanna Kementari]

How many of you know some one like Gollum/Smeagol or have a friend like him?

[Tar-Palantir]

How many of you know some one like Gollum/Smeagol or have a friend like him?

HAHA! I used to. Chance after chance after chance I gave this fella. A job, place to stay, friendship with no expectations beyond hoping he'd get his act together. An old high school friend he was. Despite my efforts and those of others he continued to pursue his own twisted desires and brought pain to the lot of us... tricksy he was...

...so we pushed him into the fires of Orodruin smilies/evil.gif

[Elfchick7]

I would pity him because first of all if I were n Frodo's position I would have to believe that he could change. Seccondly if you've listened to gollum's song on the TTT soundtrack you would pity him to to. Finally he probably would have changed if he didn't think that Frodo betrayed him. He really loved Frodo till that point.

[hobbit punk]

i pitty Smeagol, i dont pitty Gollum.

I agree with this because Gollum is a wicked, twisted creature more than capable of murder and deceit.
Smeagol on the other hand, has been corrupted and twisted into a sad kind of ghost figure always fighting(and losing) with his Gollum half. Smeagol is a very sad character who we all want to redeem himself but the thing that has to be realized is that for hundreds of years the ring has poisoned Smeagol and made him what he is now. It is illogical to assume that Smeagol can shake Gollum esp. when the precious is so very much in his grasp. And most of us know which personality wins in the end.....

[ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: hobbit punk ]

[ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: hobbit punk ]

[propagandalf]

What's all this talk about killing Gollum? True, Gollum is an evil murderer but why kill him? It's the ring's fault. Gollum can't help it if he's vulnerable to the the precious. Why blame him for something he has no control over? What if it were you?

Don't forget Gollum was 'Smeagol' once. Yes, he was greedy and mean and all that. But so are a lot of people. Why, I can name 10 people who are mean and stupid right now... but should they be killed for that? N.O.

Gandalf say:
"Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies. But there is a chance of it."

(warning: THE RETURN OF THE KING SPOILERS)

There was something in Gollum that was worth saving. The movie-Frodo saw that. And he did try to save him. The movie-Frodo realized 'the precious' was corrupting Gollum cuz he was starting to feel it too. Frodo knew that he was bound to the same fate as Gollum. And he would have turned into a monster too, had Gollum not stepped in. Would you have blamed Frodo too? Boromir tried to kill Frodo for the ring. What makes him any different?

The true evil in this story and the only one worth killing 10x, in my opinion, (besides Sauron) is Saruman. He has no redeeming qualities. All the evil things he did, he did on his own free will. (unless I'm wrong?).

If you choose to murder Gollum, then you are worse than him. Gollum was under the influence of Sauron's majick ring. What's your excuse? Hehehhee.

smilies/biggrin.gif just my opinion, please don't take it personally.
Half of the things I say are in jest.

CheeeeeEEEeeeers.

Ps- On second thought, even Saruman is not worth killing (unless in defense). I do not think I believe in ‘killing’.

[Yavanna Kementari]

I am glad that people still give others a chance. Tar-Palantir, you were the best frind you could have possibly been to this "Gollum" of yours, by giving him chances and a home. I hope the people I have offended give me a second chance.
I just want you all to know that a lot of you are good inside, don't let the darkening of the world take that hope in man out of you. Thanks for your time -(~<~> Yavanna

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Yavanna Kementari ]

[Nevcairion_of_Rivendell]

I pity him because it really wasnt his fault he's a retard

smilies/evil.gif

[Lady Iverin]

Well, I pity Smeagol or is it Gollum. Whichever one is the not so bad one. I think he never meant to do any harm until Frodo kinda betrays him. Gollum, on the other hand, I don't pity at all because he's full of hate and cruelty and would kill someone if he got the chance. smilies/evil.gif

[Mirkiin]

AWW gollum is ADORABLE in the sense that he is evil and should die!!!!!Hes kinda bitter sweet in an evil way!!ya i noe thats confuzin cuz when u think about it hes so helpless and u want 2 be able to help him but u noe he'll only end up tryin 2 kill u or going evil 4 that i cry for him!! L8er DAYZ smilies/confused.gif smilies/evil.gif smilies/evil.gif smilies/confused.gif smilies/evil.gif bye the way limits on smiles how evil: ) : ) : ) : ) : ) : ) cant stop me now
lol l8er dayz again
smilies/tongue.gif

[avarrogion]

Well after much thinking i`ve finally made up my mind...i shall stand on Gollum`s side. I pity the poor being who were once ( i believe ) a nice chap that goes fishing by the lake until he found the One ring!

Gollum is an adorable creature....i wonder if there`s any LOTR soft toys around? smilies/biggrin.gif

[Haelothiel]

I pity Gollum, or Sméagol. But I don't feel any deeper compassion. He was a mean soul before he found the ring, they talk about it. People like that aren't cast out because they're different, they're cast out because they're cruel. I have a feeling that I would have hated Gollum before the ring. But the ring did hurt him (especially in the end). I don't think that the ring would have had such a great affect on Sméagol that within the few minutes after Déagol found it that he decided to choke his cousin right there. But still I pity him, I wouldn't kill him, or at least I don't think so. You can never tell. But pity and understanding is a bit different than friendship and compassion in my mind...

[avarrogion]

If there is any chance to become Gollum...would you guys want to be him say for a day?...I would love too!!

[Haelothiel]

Oh, and Elfchick, I did listen to the sound track and I loved it, but that doesn't change what I felt when I read the books. I most definitely would feel for Gollum if I thought he was just like he is in that song! Rock on all you sound track people! smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[Finnguala]

I pity Smeagol, he can't do anything against the power of the ring. And Gollum, I don't know what to think of him... I pity him too. It's all so sad... *sigh* smilies/biggrin.gif

would you guys want to be him say for a day? It'd be fun, but I think people will stare at you and say: "OMG! What is THAT?!" smilies/biggrin.gif

[ February 22, 2003: Message edited by: Finnguala ]

[avarrogion]

Quite true Finnguala ...i did this once all day long trying to speak like Gollum and people around me were like " What the hell...wierdo... " stuff like that.

Gollum rocks !!
smilies/evil.gif

[Yavanna Kementari]

On one hand, walking a mile in Gollums shoes would be quite interesting!! On the other the feelings of being utterly alone would be enough to drive me insane!!

Think of it this way. Smeagol wasn't ALWAYS a bad guy. He was a wee hobbit lad once, he rested in 'is mums bosom when he was asleepin', just like all of you did.
He grew up to be mean. He had to learn it from somewhere. Perhaps his father beat him?

Jealousy took the ring from his cousin Deagol. The One became his master. It would have happened to Bilbo eventually as well. The hunger and need fo rthe One. It had already started and proved so before his one-hundred and eleventieth birthday.

What would you do? A power beyond your control makes you out live even the youngest of lads and lasses in your family. Age takes you beyond the conscious thought of time!!
Imagine, living that long without a friend in the world. You to would would go out of your mind.

Maybe Gollums threat to kill you,isn't just a threat on you, but perhaps in the struggle of a battle HE is hoping you will KILL HIM!!?? Hoping that he will lucky enough your swords slashing and lunging will pierce his black heart and end his terrible time soaked life once and for all. And at the same time fearing death. All you know is in Middle Earth. Being alone you recieve no conversation or care. So a threat on a person gets a response. After all any attention is attention.

Also, time brings wisdom to even the slowest person. I believe Gollum and Smeagol both tired of themselves. Gollum tired of his un-quenchable thirst for the ring, and Smeagol, tired of his life as Gollum. I believe if Smeagol were to get a second, seeing what he was already through, he would send Deagol away packing with the ring as well. Hind sight is 20/20!

I believe the pity that came from Bilbo's heart was a sign of understanding and guilt. That the pitiable wretch known as Gollum had taken the ring, as well as Bilbo had taken the ring from Gollum. And Bilbo understood what it was to be alone as well. For a long time Bilbo was by himself with no family. And since he had already taken the one thing that Gollum desired why punish him even more?

At any rate, it is good to see some moreposts on here smilies/smile.gif
Yavanna bows in respect to those of you who went diggin to find this thread.
Thankyou for your feelings and insight. It is greatly appreciated!!!!
-(~<~>Yavanna

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Yavanna Kementari ]

[avarrogion]

No problem Yavanna Kementari i am glad that there are so many Gollum fans outhere! smilies/tongue.gif

[Lyta_Underhill]

This is a great discussion! I think the pity vs. hate question is a way to reflect not only on Gollum, but on one's own values and perceived roles in life. I can pity Gollum, while at the same time, I am wary of him, and I would kill him if he threatened my life in a physical way. I would not enjoy killing him and I would regret having had to do it, but I would not be stupid and fail to defend myself in a situation in which I am in imminent danger of death.

I do think that Smeagol began as a mean soul, who did not have an inkling of the more noble values of life; he was small-minded and his petty greed caused him to commit a rash and evil act beyond his ability to understand the consequences thereof. I do think that the intervening years in the Misty Mountains gave him lots of time to reflect, as well as time to be absorbed by the Ring, and that he may have gained insight into his situation and his former life at this time; it is at this time he recognizes himself and hates himself, but also loses the strength to implement his new insight, for the Ring has him fast now. What good is wisdom that brings no profit to the wise? Smeagol/Gollum gains a sort of twisted wisdom that allows him to understand what has happened to him; and so much more for this knowledge he despairs of his wretched soul.

Also, I think that, just as Frodo recognizes himself in the deteriorated form of Smeagol; so Smeagol recognizes an ideal "first state" in Frodo. While Smeagol was never as good-hearted as Frodo, he sees an ideal he can touch and aspire to. Frodo's so-called betrayal snaps this reality and makes him feel cast out. He is so alone that he cannot understand the necessity of what Frodo had to do and that it was not a betrayal at all, but a benevolent act on Frodo's part.

So, the question: do I pity or hate Gollum? I do pity him, but I also would kill him if I had to, soberly and quickly, without malice, but with much regret. I would not do it lightly, as no one with a conscience can kill without qualms, but at the moment of truth, I would not hesitate to do it.

I could go on about one's role in society and the necessity of some to be more willing to kill than others. For instance, a soldier must not hesitate to kill if the need is there, while a regular citizen will usually do so. The regular Hobbits of the Shire will quail at killing, whereas battle-seasoned warrior hobbits Merry and Pippin convey clearly the will and capability to kill when they return to the Shire. This is necessary, but it is also out of place in the role that Frodo has taken on himself. This is a thought I have not completely come to terms with, so it is still evolving, but Gollum is a true pivotal point in the philosophy.

Thanks so much for this thread, Yavanna!

Cheers,
Lyta

[Lathriel]

When I started reading LOTR I hated Gollum but in the course of the book I started to pity him. Gollum was so tormented by the ring and his fear of many things I couldn't help but pity him. It was indeed a bad day for him when he got the ring. His soul is so twisted and full of malice.
One of the most touching parts in LOTR is when Frodo, Sam and Gollum are on the stairs near Shelob's lair and Gollum is once again debating against himself. Then Malice leaves Gollum for just a moment and he looks like a very old tired hobbit. smilies/frown.gif

[TheHobbit]

I would have sympathy for him..
The ring corrupted him. Its not his fault.. smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Andephelien]

When I read the Hobbit, I hated him. He seemed like a slimely, cruel creature. When I read Lord of the Rings, I started to pity him. He may have been an outcast when he was Smegol, but outcast or not, he didnot deserve to be corrupted, imprisomed or tortured. I pity him. In The Two Towers, Smegol tried to "escape" from Gollum, that shows that Smegol was not evil at heart. If the Ring took over someone as strong minded as Frodo, than Smegol wouldn't even have time to protest.

[nPiLL]

In ways i pity him, yet sometimes he has control over himself and should not fall for the ring. He needs to build up his self confidence! Haha

[Pervinca Burrows from Combe]

Sometimes i pity him because its the rings fault he's like that, but then i don't want to pity him because he's just plain evil at the end of the second book. smilies/confused.gif So i don't really know yet. i think i hate him more than i pity him. smilies/confused.gif

[Ringethiriel]

in a way i pity and hate smeagol/gollum because of his two personalities, one side of him is innocent and the other is corrupted by the power of the ring which makes him evil. smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[Adutincowen]

ok, I like the half of Gollum that wasn't evil, but I hate the half that is always making him do evil things (am I making any sense here?) so I guess I'm stuck in neutral.

[Yavanna Kementari]

I know how you all feel! Lately I have been feelinga little Gollum like. You know hald Gollum and half Smeagol. smilies/biggrin.gif It's not my fault though. It's this stupid ring!! LOL kidding!. But it is good to still hear from you all! thanks for posting!
-(~<~> Yavanna

[Tinuviel the Nightingale]

When I read the books, I fully hated Gollum. He was such a mean, spiteful, evil little creature, I didn't care if he died or not. And when I read all the moments where you were supposed to pity him, I felt disgusted instead. But when the movies come out and I saw how pityful and small he was, I felt sorry for him. Now I think he's kinda cute (in a creepy way)