Who were the Ringwraiths?

[Gorin Icearms]

I mean who were they before they went wraith. One was the Witch-king of Angmar, but who were the others?

[Elven-Maiden]

Weren't they the "Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die"? They were the 9 mortal kings that Sauron gave rings to.

[Gorin Icearms]

Yes but who were they?

[obloquy]

Postal workers.

[Glenethor]

smilies/biggrin.gif

[Elven-Maiden]

Sorry, I don't know. I guess one of them must be Isildur's dad, though.

[Joy]

Elven-Maiden, Isildur's father, Elendil, was not one of the RingWraiths. Elendil led the Last Alliance with Gil-galad, and died in the Siege of Barad-dûr. His sword Narsil was broken in the battle, it was reclaimed by Isildur and with the broken shards of the sword, he cut the ring from Sauron's hand. This was the sword that was later reforged into Andúril, Aragorn's sword.

You remember Faramir's and Borimir's dream, Seek for the sword that was broken, for in Imladris it dwells. Part of Aragorn's Poem:
from the ashes a fire shall be woken,
a light from the shadows will spring,
renewed shall be blade that was broken,
the crownless again shall be king."

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ]

[Birdland]

It doesn't seem to be recorded, unless Tolkien addressed it in his letters. They were all ensnared around the same time of the Second Age, and I wonder if they were not all allies or sub-cheiftains under King Angmar. Perhaps it was he who distributed the other rings, promising long life and power to them in exchange for their help in his wars.

Of course, that's just speculation. I have read nothing that would confirm that.

[Voronwe]

The name of only one of the ringwraith's is known: Khamul, the 'Black Easterling'. It is also known that 3 of the Ringwraiths were Numenoreans. Everything else, however, is a mystery. Not even the Witch King's real name is recorded.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

all the Ringwraiths were Chiefs of Men corrupted, one by one, by Sauron. He gave them rings and thus ensnared them.

[Kuruharan]

Actually, I think it is possible to make some reasonable guesses into some of the details of the Nazgul.

I think it reasonable to suppose that in his lifetime the man that became the Witch-King was in fact a king. I would guess that he probably was not one of the Numenoreans, except that the Numenoreans were a cut above other men, and the Witch-King was a cut above the other Nazgul. Still I lean (for no explicable reason) towards a non-Numenorean origin for the Witch-King.

Khamul was obviously an Easterling of some sort. For the same inexplicable reason I tend to think that he was also a king while he was "alive."

Moving to the three Numenoreans (assuming that the Witch-King was not one of them) I think that it would be a fair bet that at one time one of them had been the king (or whatever other type of ruler) of the Numenorean colony at Umbar. (Yes, I know somebody will say, "but then why couldn't the Witch-King have been the ruler of Umbar?" I don't know so don't ask me!) For the other two, I always thought of them being wizards or sorcerers or something of that ilk.

For the rest, you would probably have a cross section of all the different types of people. Some Haradrim and other Southern folk, as well as various and sundry types of Easterlings. Maybe there was one from the Northmen as well.

Just some idle and unprovable speculation.
(But I don't think that my guesses are far out though.)

[avarerniliel]

In the little legacy/poem that tells a story about the ring, it tells about how 9 rings of power were given to men, and how they were doomed to die. They became wraiths when they were corrupted by the rings of power, and were connected and drawn to the ONE RING when it was on the bearer's finger.

Elendil was not a ring-wraith because he was out to stop the evil of Sauron, not to spread it.

As for the names of the ring-wraiths, all I know is that they were all kings of men, including the witch-king.

[Kuruharan]

I don't think that all of them were necessarily kings. I think that some of them may have been just really powerful sorcerers. I might be wrong on that point though.

[Nazgûl Queen]

<center><font color="red">My colleagues were great Kings and Sorcerors of the Black Numenoreans, Easterlings and Southerlings.

However, I personally was a captured princess of Fornost who was tortured and lost her memory, mindlessly accepting Sauron's ring and therefore becoming a Nazgul smilies/biggrin.gif

[Fenrir]

I would guess that the Witch-King was descended from the Edain but never actually went to Numenor. Only a guess though.

[Glenethor]

Which only goes to show:

Beware of those 'bearing gifts.' Like Annatar.
smilies/evil.gif

Tolkien could've written another LoTR sized book on the Second Age, especially involving the seduction of the Nine to the Rings, who they were, where they were from. All I know is, I wouldn't want to meet one in a dark alley. Or two...Or Nine for that matter...

[avarerniliel]

No. They were all kings. As is clearly stated in both the movie and the books. After all, why just hand out 9 rings of power to random men walking by? smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Kuruharan]

Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their days, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing.

-Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

From the way that is phrased I would assume that they were not all kings. If they were, why call them anything else?

[Aralaithiel]

I like the postal workers theory! smilies/biggrin.gif

Seriously...there were some groups of men who had no real "kingdom" so to speak. They were loosely organized, so maybe the men in charge of those groups could be to whom Tolkien referred to. I think (not really able to recall anything clearly thanks to extra strength sinus meds right now) I read about a reference to them in Unfinished Tales.

[avarerniliel]

Exactly Kuruharan! Thank-you!

[Oakenshild]

I see the socities of the Eastelings as orgnized as clans, and the Hradrim in tribes, so they could have easly been kings as well as soccers, shamen, or witchdoctors,

[Leto]

Only two of the Nazgul are identified in writings of Tolkien...The Witch King of Angmar, (who I assume is one of the Numenoreans), and Khamul, Shadow of the East. In the Middle Earth collectible card game, they were all given names. Where these names came from, I have no idea.

#1 Witch King
#2 Khamul the Easterling
#3 Dwar of Waw
#4 Hoarmurath of Dir
#5 Akhorahil
#6 Ren the Unclean
#7 Adunaphel
#8 Indur Dawndeath
#9 Uvatha the Horseman

[NicktheOrc]

The Witch-King was called Murazor. He was one of the kings of the house of Numenor. smilies/smile.gif

[obloquy]

What NicktheOrc said is completely false.

[Halbador]

so who were they, isn't is said in one of the books? smilies/evil.gif

[Daniel Telcontar]

Are you sure that the Witch-King was not a nazgûl before he made the realm of Angmar? I have always thought that he was a wraith before he made Angmar, because if he was still enjoying the fun it is to have a magical ring, why should he destroy Arnor? Wouldn't he have been to selfish to aid Sauron unless he was totally under Sauron's dominion?

[Kuruharan]

I have always thought that he was a wraith before he made Angmar

You are correct sir.

[ImmortalKing]

Murazor(witchking)
Khamul
Dwar
Indur
Akhorahil
Hoamurath
Adunaphel
Ren
Uvatha

[Fingolfin II]

The only Nazgul that J.R.R. Tolkien has given names to are the Witch-King of Angmar and Khamul the Easterling. Three of the Nazgul are said to 'be of high Numenorean race'. All the supposed 'names' given to the Nazgul are made up, either by the makers of trading cards or random websites. Or just randomly :p.

[A_Brandybuck]

Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their days, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing.

-Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

This quote, that Kuruharan has posted already before, does only imply, that they became mighty in their days, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old after they had received their Rings.
Consequently it could be, that some of the Nazgûl were normal Men, with no title or noble origin. The Rings made them mighty, it must not be, that they had been mighty before.
That let to the question, on which criteries Sauron has chosen the Ringbearers. Surely were most of them Númenórians, they are supposed to be more powerful as normal Men because of their origin. That there are at least some Númenórians, shows this footnote of Letter 156:

There were evil Númenórians: Sauronians, but they do not come into this story, except remotely; as the wicked kings who had become Nazgûl or Ringwraiths.

And that not all are Númenórians is shown in the title of Khamûl: the Easterling.

[narfforc]

The only name Tolkien mentions in connection with the nazgul is Khamul, there is a slight possibility that Gothmog the lieutenantof Morgul may have been a nazgul. The Witch-King of Angmar is a title not a name. Tolkien wrote books, he didnt sanction any card games, computer games or role-playing games, so which nutter has decided to give names to the nazgul is irrelevent. So to end all the speculation, here are the only words that matter:


1. The Witch-King of Angmar.

2. Khamul the Black Easterling.

3. Gothmog(A big maybe).

4. Nazgul 4.

5. Nazgul 5.

6. Nazgul 6.

7. Nazgul 7.

8. Nazgul 8.

9. Nazgul 9.

So until a hidden manuscript of Tolkiens turns up naming them Tom, Dick and Harry, we will have to call them The Nazgul.

[Thinlómien]

Gothmog was a commander of the armies of Mordor, but was he a nazgul?
I don't think so. (But I don't know what was he then...)

[Aiwendil]

Gothmog was a commander of the armies of Mordor, but was he a nazgul?
I don't think so. (But I don't know what was he then...)

This is both unknown and unknowable. The only "evidence" that he was a Nazgul is the line of reasoning:

1. After the Witch-king's death, the second in command of the army would have taken over.

2. The second in command must have been the second most important member of Sauron's forces present at the battle.

3. The Nazgul were present and are more important than any other of Sauron's minions.

4. Therefore Gothmog is a Nazgul.

This line of thought does actually make some sense, but it's certainly not airtight. And that is that. I'm afraid there's even less room for a well-argued position here than in the Balrog wing debate.

[narfforc]

To add further to the reasoning of Aiwendil: Gothmog is called The Lieutenant of Morgul ie Minas Morgul, that is where the Nazgul dwell. Can anyone seriously consider that anything but a Nazgul would be the second in command of their own power base, certainly not that orc from the film, who looked more like Pumpkinhead.

[IlfirinMelme]

The title taken by the Lord of the Nazgûl in the middle of the Third Age, when he founded the northern realm of Angmar in opposition to the northern lands of the Dúnedain (Arthedain and its allies). I thought that he became witch king of angmar after he was a wraith.

[Formendacil]

The title taken by the Lord of the Nazgûl in the middle of the Third Age, when he founded the northern realm of Angmar in opposition to the northern lands of the Dúnedain (Arthedain and its allies). I thought that he became witch king of angmar after he was a wraith.

He was a wraith. It was a wraith that he was the Witch-king. In fact, he had been a wraith for LONG time before he became the king of Angmar. If we assume that he got his ring in the mid-Second Age, and that it didn't take more than a century or two to wraith-ify him (if I may be permitted a bit of errant word-making), then he was a wraith for something close to an age before Sauron decided to give him a kingdom.

[Halbarad]

In Of the Rings of Power and the Second Age it says that after Sauron had gathered the Rings of Power to himself he dealt them out to the other people of Middle Earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind so it was Sauron that dealt them out.
In the Silmarillion Tolkien wrote ...In the south and in the further east Men multiplied; and most of them turned to evil, for Sauron was at work. .

We also know that the Harad-men and the Easterlings worshipped Sauron; he was their overlord, so I would suggest that more than one of the Nazgul were Easterlings or Southerners, tribal chieftans, warlords, men of power at any rate. We don't know how large the eastern areas went, but they had a lot more men than Minas Tirith did, as we saw in the battle before the Morannon, so probably large. This is all a long way of saying I think that the Nazgul (apart from the Numenoreans) were of eastern and southern extraction

[Thinlómien]

Okay, Gothmog was a nazgul then... :)
But I just thought about the name. Can you think about a numenorean (even a black numenorean) lord naming his son Gothmog? Or did Gothmog take the name afterwards? (Oh my big mouth - it should be shut forever, because this leads to another topic- the names of the ringwraiths. Was Khamul called "the black easterling" before he became a nazgul? Or did he get a new "nazgul-name", like the Witch-king of Angmar?) While writing this post my thoughts about the topic changed a lot. So try to survive me... :)
My point is that logically (note I'm not saying this is true - just logic) Gothmog was a nazgul and named after his nazgul-becoming. (And this makes my notations fully meaningless. Poor me... :))

[Halbarad]

I don't think Gothmog was a Nazgul for two reasons: The Witch King wouldn't have tolerated a being with as much power as one of the other Nazgul in his place. Instead he would have had a lesser servant (but still evil and fulfilling the other requirements) that he would be able to dominate, and who would be able to run things while the Nine were off on business.

Actually, the second reason is less debatable than the first, but I'll let the first stand.

[Thinlómien]

A clever point, Halbarad - I think I shouldn't say anything because you all have influenced my opinion and I don't know what to say. Probably the best thing to do is to forget this topic, which can't be solved, and to return to the original topic. (I know this current topic is related - even very much related to the original topic, but still...)

[narfforc]

Sorry Halbarad, But you are putting a living mortal slant on your point. The Nazgul, and that includes their Black Captain, were subservient to the will of Sauron, they had virtually no independent thoughts for power and glory, beyond the designs of their dark master. There would be no power struggle between them, therefore The Morgul Lord would not have worried about his Lieutenant, Gothmog, being a powerful Nazgul. Minas Morgul was the home of The Ringwraiths, The Lieutenant of Morgul was Gothmog. If Gothmog was not a Nazgul, what was he?. Do not forget, Sauron thought that Aragorn may have had The One Ring, He would not send another powerful, independent thinking man to retake it, and maybe fall prey to its corruption. The only beings he could trust were The Nazgul, taking The One Ring, they would have returned it to him. The Hierarchy of any army or battlefield would have demanded that the second most powerful individual would have taken control after the death of The Lord of the Nazgul, and we all know who that was. Tolkien called him The Lieutenant of Morgul, being an ex army officer himself, he would have known that Lieutenant means: An army Officer next below Captain, so who on that battlefield was next in rank below The Black Captain? an Orc! or maybe a Troll even, it had to be something if it was not a Nazgul, so of which mighty race was it.

[Halbarad]

You forget that Sauron used men too. Let's look at the Mouth of Sauron. Of him it is said that he was a living man and a great sorcerer. ...yet this was no Ringwraith, but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad Dur he was....and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery; and he knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc. A rumoured Black Numenorean he was. This proves that Sauron had powerful Men in his employ: long lived, very powerful, and deeply involved in the big boss' plans. Gothmog could have easily been a twisted man.

I agree that Sauron wouldn't want someone too powerful wresting the ring from Aragorn, if he did indeed have it, so my point falls a little flat. My only counter to that would be that some of Sauron's closest and most trusted servants were there of their own free will, for example the Lieutenant of Barad Dur. Most of Sauron's servants were in fact slaves- orcs, trolls, variags- or men who worshipped Sauron as a God (Easterlings, for example). So, if they were to get the Ring, they would have taken it to Sauron, because the rewards would have been tremendous. Remember, the Ring worked to get back to Sauron, so it wouldn't need to twist a servant taking it back to Sauron. Also, a servant of Sauron would know the fate in store for someone who tried ot keep it away from him, so fear would be a very powerful influence on their actions.

As for the Nazgul not craving power/domain, I said that it was a more contentious idea so your objection is noted. However, I think it is possible because of the arrogance the Witch King shows on both occassions when he speaks. He had cunning and he had a mind that could doubt (read the encounter between him and Eowyn). Look also in The Siege of Gondor, where he says Old fool, this is MY hour (emphasis mine). Not "Sauron's hour", but "My hour". Sure the Nazgul were completely in thrall to Sauron, but they had full cognitive power (who would lay a siege without the ability to think laterally or whatever), and the rings were originally given to them because they craved power, so that, to me, says that they had the capacity to be jealous. It's a side issue, though.

[narfforc]

The desire for power corrupts, yes Sauron used men, but he didnt trust them. We do not know for certain that anyone taking the Ring would hand it over willingly to Sauron. If it entered their mind to become more than what they were, who knows what power the ring would exert. The Ring wanted to be reunited with its master, but in this it failed utterly, certainly none of its bearers ever entertained the idea of giving it to The Dark Lord. There were many times during the journey to Mordor that the Ring`s self-determination could have come into play, most notably, at the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, surely the Ring knew its fate. Sauron trusted none but the Nazgul, for they, through the power of One Ring were extensions of his own being, not even The Lord of the Nazgul would have had the power or the will to break the hold Sauron had on them, but men are unpredictable, treacherous and had unquenchable ambition. Though Melkor hated Men, he also feared them, for Iluvatar had bestowed strange gifts upon them, which those who had sang in The Ainulinale knew well. Although the Nazgul were originally men, they were something quite different by The War of the Ring, they were slaves of the Nine Rings and dependent on the power of The One Ring, and the Power that resided within The Great Ring was of the being of Sauron.

[Halbarad]

If Sauron did not trust men, why was the lieutenant of Barad Dur a man who was deep in his plots? In the whole history of the Ring never once did a being already in the service of Sauron handle it. We cannot know (don't get all post-modern on me now) whether a servant of Sauron would have claimed the ring as his own. The greatest power the Ulairi had was fear; complete and utter fear, and so fear of Sauron would have had a slave or a servant return the ring to its master.
Back to my point. If Gothmog was indeed a man I doubt that Sauron would have had much fear of him claiming the Ring. He feared Aragorn or some other powerful Lord takign the Ring and using it against him, and let's not forget that Aragorn was a powerful Man, and Gothmog, if he was a man, would not have had the same innate power for the Ring to give power to. So, Gothmog could have been a man.

[King of the North]

well it's already been answered above, but i'll just put my two cents in anyway. the Nazgul (or ringwraiths in Westron) were once great kings of Men. Once they accepted the Nine Rings from Sauron they were slowly transformed into his servants. Serving as his highest ranking lieutenants, during the War of the Ring, they searched endlessly for the One Ring.