Fanfiction: the definition of Mary-Sue

[Niphredil Baggins]

Someone somewhere asked what is a Mary-Sue. I’ll respond the best I can:

A Mary-Sue can be a fanfiction story of any fandom.

Typical characteristics in a Mary-Sue:

-the hero is a girl
-she has an exotic name
-her eyes, hair or both are an unusual colour
-the writer’s favourite character falls in love with her
-she has all the good characteristics the writer would like to have herself (usually the writer is a girl)
-she has none or very few flaws in her personality: she is kind to everyone, brave, beautiful, sickeningly sweet…
-she often has immense supernatural abilities
-everything in the story is centred around her
-she makes other characters behave uncharacteristically
-she often sings (but not all singers are Mary-Sues)

A Mary-Sue is the writer’s daydream and a reader’s nightmare: the reader can’t identify with Miss Perfect, but wants someone human, regardless of species.

A ‘Lord of the Rings’ Mary-Sue could be like this.

Her name is Caralinda. She is a High School student in California. Her eyes are bright green, her hair is flaming red. One day she inherits from her grandmother a diamond ring. When she puts it in her finger, she enters Middle-Earth. There she joins the Fellowship of the Ring. Legolas falls in love with her and starts composing love poetry. Aragorn is jealous, and the friendship of Gimli and Legolas is jeopardised because of her. She gets captured by orcs and rescued by Boromir. Frodo opens his heart’s troubles to her. No-one thinks any evil thoughts about her, because she is so adorable and sincere. She can prophesy the future and offers her visions in riddle-songs. In the end her actions save Frodo and it is she who destroys the ring.

Give your thoughts and definitions, and I claim no copyright to the story-idea above; however, if you steal it, please keep your story away from good fanfiction sites. I stole no ideas fom no particular writer, if you recognise your character, no fault of mine.


<font size=1 color=339966>[Title edited by moderator]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:33 AM December 29, 2003: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

[Lomelinde]

Wow. You sum up about half to three-quarters of all the Tolkien fanfic out there perfectly. Is it some innate supernatural power, or just skill? smilies/biggrin.gif Nice.

I enjoy reading Tolkien fanfics (when I have time) but I try to avoid this particular category like the plague. Alas, it is becoming too difficult nowadays. Sigh...

[Nimrodel]

Mary Sue (http://www.fantasyplanet.cz/lotr/picture_show.asp?id=1698&obr_url=../gfx%2Fpictures%5Fclanky%2Flotr%5Fgal%5Fvelky%5F200 2%5F5%5F16%5F11%5F11%5F2%2Ejpg)

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nimrodel ]

[Losthuniel]

ah, Mary -Sues. my nemisis. *ducks random bits of masonry people have throw at her* well you knew i'd show up sometime? But i have promised (on the Mary-Sue Litmus test thread) to stop ranting incessantly agaisnt them. I have adapted the fanfiction term to RPs, since no one has an official name for these characters. however bad you think they are in fanfiction, multiply the annoying factor by 10, and you have your RPG Mary-Sue. they are the Uruk-hai of Mary-Sues.
i love LotR fanfiction, and even though i cant write it very well, i love reading. for all of you tired of wading through the mindless millions of the fangirl-inspired fics, i found this great one on Fanfiction.net (http://www.fanfiction.net)
caled 'Time and Space' by ArtemisPrime. the basis is Legolas gets transported to the future, and is put in a mental hospital. there he meets the only person who can reunite him with Aragorn and get him home.
whateverit sounds like to the contrary, this is definitly not a Mary-sue. in fact, it may be the best fic on the whole damn site!
enough ranting, heres the link:
Time and Space (http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=662692)

[Liriodendron]

I've never read fanfiction, after reading that, I don't think I need to! Sounds like a daydream. smilies/wink.gif

[Losthuniel]

whadda mean? (sorry, stupid here) its a very good story,ignore my summary, go read it.

[Liriodendron]

Oh, I meant the first story, When I have a little more time, I will go to your story and read it, cause you said it's good! smilies/smile.gif

[Losthuniel]

my story, hell no, thats not my story. good lord! ME, write something like THAT? have you got your lions crossed! smilies/biggrin.gif .

[Liriodendron]

Giggle, we're not communicating well! My fault. By your story I meant your recomendation. smilies/smile.gifI'd rather do a picture than write a story!

[Losthuniel]

lol! i get it now!
BTW, welcome to the Downs. we dont bite (much) anyways, have fun being dead!

[Liriodendron]

Thank you so much, Losthumiel. I plan on having fun. Hey ho! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Nimrodel]

Losthuniel, That's a good story. I'm glad you posted the link. I'm printing it up and reading it a chapter at a time, as time allows.

[Niphredil Baggins]

I write to fanfiction.net, and sometimes I write to people who review my stories well to thank them, and some of them turn out to be quality writers themselves, but some, well... I usually don't comment on their stories, they are young, they will learn; I did. My stories have evolved from a half-Mary-Sue to tragedy and dark humour. I've learned the characteristics of a Mary-Sue in order to avoid those stories without wasting too much time trying to decide if a particular story is one.

[Losthuniel]

whats your penname on ff.net?

[Ithaeliel]

I am starting to feel bad about having a heroine in my story at all.

[Losthuniel]

dont feel bad! everyone loves heroines! in all the stories i write, my heroes are female. its making sure your character is sufficently developed is the trick. i admit, some of my characters have not developed throughout the story, but i just scrap those and start again.
heres a good website for all the heroines
Sheroes (http://www.sheroes.com)

[Niphredil Baggins]

I'm known att ff.net as Arwen Imladviel. Not all my stuff is Tolkien, but almost. The poetry is the worst. smilies/smile.gif

Of course heroines are allowed! In Tolkien-inspired stories there is all the more room for females, since Tolkien himself had so few significant ones there.

Besides, some male characters of the writer's own invention behave very much like Mary-Sues. They are called Gary-Lou.

I have three female heroes in three different fics, one a hobbit, one an elf, one a Maia. None of them is, I think, a Mary-Sue. Go and read their lives and you'll see what I mean.

oh, and then I have one funny story with only Tolkien's characters, none my own.

[Susan Delgado]

Is fanfiction.net down? Not only can I not get into Losthuniel's link, it won't even let me into the main site there.... smilies/frown.gif

[Losthuniel]

It should work now...

[The Silver-shod Muse]

I sometimes give my heroines minor fits of depression to keep their preppiness under control. It works, and it adds a facet of negative personality.

[mystra]

hi! i totally agree! im reading a medieval novel at the mo and the main heroine is sooooooo perfect! shes really starting to annoy me! she can beat all the knights at woteva they do, she getys away with it!!!!!! and she saves the day in a battle. urrgh!
anyway!!!!! smilies/biggrin.gif um.... ok, i have ranted and raved, um... thats it i think!! byeee! luv myst. ps. a lot of the pointless fan fic is actually quite enjoyable, even if it is predictable. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Ithilwen]

Susan Delgado, fanfiction.net has been having major server problems for approximately the last two weeks - sometimes the site is up and functioning reasonably well, sometimes it's up but acting very quirky, and much of the time it's down. If you persevere (and try accessing the site at differing times throughout the day - I find it's working best for me around 7-9AM Central Daylight Savings Time), you'll probably get through eventually. This problem is driving those of us who have our fics posted there crazy! smilies/mad.gif

[Susan Delgado]

Thank you, Ithelwen. I just tried and it worked. It's a great story, too smilies/smile.gif

[Ithilwen]

Susan, there are tons of wonderful stories posted on fanfiction.net (which is why the current server problems are so frustrating!), but they tend to be buried in an avalanche of truly horrible fics! I prefer Silmarillion-based fics, so I don't know all the best LoTR authors posting there, but if the Search function is working the next time you go to fanfiction.net, do an authorsearch for Dwimordene - I think you'll really enjoy her stories, and she'll have links on her authorpage to many other good writers (look under her "Favorite Authors" and "Favorite Stories" sections).

[Losthuniel]

in the story I'm currently writing, (fantasy , of course) my heroine is a goth raver type.

As for the crap you find on ff.nt, I am working to establish a home for good fanfic, so send yours in and I will edit it. *ducks spam police* ok, ok, I'm finished.

[Ithilwen]

I mentioned this in a thread in The Books, but I'll repeat it in this thread anyway smilies/wink.gif The writer's group Henneth Annun has opened a new archive, and since the fic have to be recommended by several members to be posted there, they're generally very good. The url is www.henneth-annun.net (http://www.henneth-annun.net). Check it out when you're finished reading the fics here at the Downs! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Morgul Queen]

Don't worry about the Evil Empire, that's what Stories of Arda (http://www.storiesofarda.com) and RMH (http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/royal_mirkwood_home) are for, eh?

On the subject of great FF authors, I have a list of some of the best on FF.net.

TreeHugger
JastaElf
Jay of Lasgalen
Jenolas
Dragon-of-the-North
Jocelyn
AC4
Marnie
The Nightrunners
PutterPatty
Dragon Confused
Wednesday mc
Camilla Sandman
Lord Elrond's Bailiff
Harpwire
Ithilien
Katharine the Great

These, I swear, are some of the best authors I have ever seen....including published ones too. For anyone who likes slash, If anyone here does, AC's The Folly of Starlight (http://www.ithilas.com) is absolutly amazing, and even if slash isn't your cup of tea it is still worth checking out. I am absolutly in love with the history she has created for Legolas, Thranduil, Oropher, Elrond, Elros, Gil-galad and basically most of the canon characters are involved in some way, shape, or form.

If you still don't wish to have a look, Jasta's Dark Leaf is just as good. DL is found in its entirety at RMH which is listed above. Give it a look people.

[aleesa]

Gary-Lou and Mary-Sue? Thanks for the description. I've read a few fanfictions where the Mary-Sues can get so annoying. I mean, I read a fanfiction about character that is so sweet and perfectly beaautiful and the male lead (Legolas) falls hopelessly in love with her. Ok...I shouldnt't be rude just because someone wants to write his or her fanfic...Sorry...
But then, there are good fanfictions that aren't just about swooning heroines or too-perfect characters and I love to read them. Keep those good fanfic coming people... smilies/biggrin.gif

[Daisy Brambleburr]

Ack, I can't stand Mary-Sues. But admittedly, I have been guilty of using them in my stories. When I first started writing fanfiction I was really in to Harry Potter, and one of my characters was such a horribly perfect Mary Sue it made you want to be sick (though I didn't notice at the time). Black hair, very very blue eyes, pretty, mysterious, clever, you know what I mean.
Does anyone have any tips on how to stop female characters becoming Mary-Sues? I'd suggest not letting them join the Fellowship, giving them at least one flaw or something they're unhappy about. Give them a really big nose *heh heh*.
I write on fanfiction.net under the pen name of Daisy Brambleburr, and I've got a lot of fics up.
Here's a question, have you ever read a Mery Sue fic (a serious one, not a parody) that you thought was really good?

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Speaking of good writers on ff.net, Altariel is fabulous. I love Faramir fics and her "A Game of Chess" is a masterpiece that's set after the War of the Ring. It is NOT a Mary-Sue.

While I don't like to read Mary-Sues, I don't mind people writing them because that's how most people start out when they're writing. Wish fulfilment stories are okay as long as I don't have to look at them. Actually, some Mary-Sues overcome their questionable origins to become pretty good stories. There's one in particular at ff.net that I like quite a bit, even though the heroine has white hair, fights as well as a man, is Aragorn's long-lost cousin and has three canon characters attracted to her -- all hallmarks of a typical Mary-Sue. I won't give the title, because the author would probably be insulted that I thought her story a Mary-Sue.

Ways to avoid writing a Mary-Sue:

Don't invent new characters. Use only canon characters that already have defined roles in the story.

If you must invent a female character, make darn sure she doesn't end up romantically involved with a canon character EVER (unless it's Gimli). Invent a new character for her to fall in love with.

She must also not be related to any canon characters. Do not have her be a long-lost twin, cousin, bastard daughter or ex-girlfriend of anyone with a name.

Do not make her royalty of any type. Especially not a long-lost elven princess, or the true heir of the caliphate of Harad, etc.

Do not make her looks strikingly beautiful or ugly.

Do not make her better at a canon character's specialty than that character is. If she shoots better than Legolas, rides better than Eomer and finds mithril better than Gimli, she needs to be toned down. She can be good enough to win compliments, just not *better*. A non-Mary-Sue would ride better than Gimli, shoot better than Eomer and find mithril better than Legolas. smilies/biggrin.gif

Do not have all the canon characters like/admire her. Some should dislike her, be indifferent or even suspicious.

Do not have her die and have everyone cry over her loss.

Do not give her a single word name that is a noun. Especially if that noun is "Cat".

Cheers!
-Lily

[Kalimac]

Bravo, Lily! I'd just like to make one addition:

Tortured pasts are forbidden. One parent who died of natural causes is OK. Two is pushing it, but doable. Parents who (in ME) die by Orc-related violence or (in the modern world) are murdered or die in childbirth are *out*. If your heroine is the sole survivor of a ruined village/Elvenkingdom/what-have-you, put down the pen and back away slowly.

I've been on a sort of fanfiction kick lately (doctor-ordered lounging around largely being responsible for that) and I'm guessing that literally half of the Sues, if not more, have some sort of disastrous or traumatic past. I'm not saying that you can't have a convincing character with a tragic past, but it is harder to make it work. Too often it's just a device to go for the waterworks.

OTOH, I'll admit to having a weakness for some Sue-ish stories, mostly the ones which stay within ME - I've yet to see a "Girl dropped into Middle Earth" story which worked when it wasn't supposed to be funny. But there's no need to stay away from OCs altogether. I've read some pretty good (if unlikely) fics where an OC falls in love with a canon character - UNATTACHED canon character, let me specify, so no fics about Pippin's love interest unless her name is Diamond of Long Cleave - but they were fun and readable because the OC didn't have superpowers or Luthien-defeating beauty, didn't join the quest, actually had interests/characteristics in common with the canon character ... you get the idea. I think a lot of the appeal in those stories is that they try to answer the question "What was it like *not* to be in the Fellowship?" It must have been rather strange to be a hobbit in the Shire, for example, watching all the Ruffians move in and old places being torn down and dug up, completely unaware of what this is symptomatic of, but still trying to figure out how to get on with life.

That being said, if you have a morbid sense of humour and several hours to kill, try googling "LOTR Sues". There is evil there that does not sleep...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I don't read much fan-fiction and definitely try to avoid Mary-Sue stories, since I haven't found any that I enjoyed reading. However, we do have the ultimate Mary-Sue parody RPG right here at the Downs. If you haven't read The Revenge of the Entish Bow (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=22&t=000037) (now being continued in 'The Reunification of the Entish Bow' on the Gondor RPG forum), you might want to take a look at Merisuwyniel and her Fellow/Galship...

[Bill]

If that's the definition of Mary Sue
or Gary Lou, the Harry Potter in the
philospher's stone book must be a Gary lou! smilies/evil.gif

[Emma Woodhouse]

Lol, Niphredil!

If you´re still wondering about the "Official Mary Sue Definition", check out this "scientific guide" (https://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1490462) to Mary sues. It´s totally hilarous, and no, I didn´t read the whole thing.

[Daisy Brambleburr]

What about non-canon characters that are romantically involved with a canon character? In one of my fics I have a Boromir/OC romance, and it was hard not to turn her into a Mary Sue. How far can you go, in regards to inventing your own Middle Earth character?

[Kalimac]

Bill - actually, that's technically impossible, since Harry Potter is not an outside character in his own world. Canon Stu is, of course, another question, though I'd argue that Harry has enough flaws (tendency to fly off the handle, to jump into things and make huge mistakes, etc - which excuse him from that definition smilies/smile.gif). Canon Sue turns up a lot - Eowyn gets hit with it a lot, unfortunately.

Daisy - I'm sending you a PM, hope that's OK. (I didn't want to go on too long about one particular type of story, since I don't want to make the mods frown).

[Aragorns Twisted Angel]

Self-insertion or original character fics can be written without it being a mary sue... lol... I put all my original characters thru the wringer... and they sure ain't perfect lol

[Sapphire_Flame]

Well said, Twisted Angel.

Tortured pasts are forbidden.
As are mystery pasts. If your character doesn't know anything about their past/has some sort of amnesia, shred the fic immediately and start over.

I do agree with much of what is said here; I've had one or two Mary-Sue accusations of my own fic at FF.net, which I rather resented, but it has made me think more about my character and how she is relating to the canon characters I'm using. There are a lot of really horrible Mary-Sue's on FF.net. But there are stories with Original Characters that are done quite well, and with a minimal amount of Sue-like incidents.

One thing to mention: Making OC's too perfect is a major mistake. So is making them too angst-ridden in an attempt to avoid the above. Finding a happy medium can be difficult, but excellent if done correctly.

To you readers of FF.net, I recommend the authors shirebound, Baylor, and Pearl Took. Truly excellent authors.

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Morgul Queen]

What is more annoying than 'Rings 'Sues are...HOBBIT 'Sues, mainly because thay have to have read the books to know about Hobbit Canon and they still mangle it anyway. Myself (Agent Darkling) and my friend/partner, Dizzy B. are the Protecters of the Hobbit Continuum so once again, if you see any Hobbit 'Sues, 'Lous, or excessive OOC-ness PM me and we'll put paid to them.

Also, we at the PPC have a Mary-Sue litmus test so you can make sure that your OC's aren't 'Sues. I can't remember the URL so if you want it PM me!

Ummm, Estelyn? Can I post PPC fics at the 'Downs, or is that not polite, it could serve as a warning to 'Sue authors?

[Catlyn21]

Ah...fanfiction...don't even get me started on it, I've been hooked since a friend showed me...

But anyway, I think that it is basically alright for people to post their Mary Sues on there -- as long as they realize that no self-respecting person is ever going to read them! No harm in just putting them there, eh?

Not all fanfic is bad though, the parodies and humor are hysterical (me being the pathetic writer of just one story...I don't even remember what its called, if you want to read it PM me), and the some of the angsty ones are pretty good...maybe thats just me, though smilies/biggrin.gif

**My mom blocked me from fanfic 'cause I read it too much... guess thats saying something...**

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Thanks, Kalimac! How could I forget the tortured past? It reminds me of the opening of "Romancing the Stone" where the chesty heroine says something like: "I finally kilt the man that murdered my father, raped me and my mother, shot my dog and stoled my Bible!"

Daisy, if you start with an OC and have her romantically involved with a canon character, all is not lost, but you're definitely in danger of being accused of writing a Mary-Sue and even of doing so. You have to be very careful to check that the canon character acts in a way consistent with his character in the book, and you cannot change *anything* that is written in the book. That means that Boromir must do everything that it says he did, including trying to take the Ring and dying. If the OC directly or indirectly prevents these things from happening, she is a Mary-Sue. If Boromir does something extremely out of character, for example offering to give up inheriting the Stewardship to run away with the OC, failing in his military duties because he rescued the OC instead, or defying his father over the OC, she is a Mary-Sue.

One way to avoid an OC becoming a Sue is to have everything she does happen "off stage" and not affect events in the book at all. (OCs that "join the Fellowship" are pretty much all Mary-Sues.) You can do this by slipping her into the gaps of time the book doesn't cover. We don't know what Boromir did in his youth before he left Minas Tirith, or on his journey to Rivendell via Rohan, so you have some freedom there to introduce an OC. However, in the end he must leave her to go to Rivendell and his fate. (He could also meet someone in Lorien, but his relationship with her would be very short!)

Good luck in your writing, and don't give up!

-Lily smilies/smile.gif

Disclaimer: The examples presented above were not taken from any specific fic. Anyone who feels insulted by them should have their fics read by an honest beta-reader. smilies/tongue.gif

[Lathriel]

I have only written one fan-fic but luckily it is not a Mary-Sue.
I hate these kinda stories because eventually they become very much the same.
I have never been a real fan-fic fan because I believe you have to write something original too. If you only write fan-fics, well I believe it kinda slows down the learning process in what a good story truly is about. Not that it is bad, it is just that a mix of writing both is probably best.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

In answer to your question about fan fiction at the Downs, Morgul Queen - I do not decide what goes there. Those decisions are made by the Barrow-Wight alone. I do know that he has eliminated a lot in order to attempt to reach and keep a higher standard. I also know that he is swamped with offers of stories, so that it takes a long time to wade through them.

[Ophelia]

Well if to talk about Mary-Sues and you just want to have a good laugh I suggest you to visit this site ---> http://www.livejournal.com/community/marysues/274084.html . It is the realest and the most awfulest ff I have ever read .
Note : the author of this ... "masterpiece" is 15 years old . Mark my words .

Ophelia

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ophelia, thanks for that link - I have just collapsed helplessly laughing over that story and especially the wonderful comments!

[Sapphire_Flame]

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/eek7.gif What the Mordor was that supposed to be? I can usually forgive some Mary-Sues if they're written well enough, but that was absolutely horrendous. People, read that, and you know exactly what NOT to do!!!

**Okay, we've spent all this time bashing Mary-Sues. Now, what are your suggestions for fixing them?**

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Diamond18]

Oh my word. Thank you for that, Ophelia, I've actually been reduced to tears. smilies/eek.gif

(Esty, I'm having ideas...)

Anyway, being as the only fanfic/rpg I've ever written in is Esty's Mary-Sue parody, it goes without saying that my character is a Mary-Sue (a backseat Mary-Sue, if you will). She's a half-human half-hobbit, her parents were murdered by Orcs while on a picnic (staining the picnic blanket and the potato salad, no less). She was rescued by Elves from the Hidden Vally Ranch (read, Rivendell) and is now the girlfriend of a dopey half-elf from Workmud (read, oh you know). Ha HA! Stop me, why don't you! Mwah ha ha!

PS: Why fix Mary-Sues? Can't we just kill them or something?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:44 PM January 03, 2004: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[Kalimac]

Another good livejournal Sue site is Deleterius:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/deleterius/

It's a mix of Harry Potter and LOTR Sues, quite a number of them every day with convenient checklists for breaking down the stories. Enjoy smilies/smile.gif. (And be sure to check out the archives).

[Aragorn10123]

does n e 1 know merry's real first name?

[Lathriel]

As a little girl I always made up Mary-Sues before going to sleep cause they were easy and fun.
However now I have had enough of them. smilies/tongue.gif

[Everdawn]

I am so sick of reading about some "Beautiful elven maiden" stealing either Legolas or Haldir's hearts. It is making me sick. Even the historical content of the story is almost always wrong, and i have half a mind to write a long letter to the writers.

BTW. I did read the Fanfic on 'Time and Space' mentioned ont he first page, and you know, i really enjoyed it, it was a good little story.

[Aredhel Ar-Feiniel]

I actually going to count how many Mary-Sues i come across on that site now.

Or has someone else already done that?

[Ophelia]

Why thank you , thank you . I really bursted into tears while reading it for the first time smilies/biggrin.gif
I am truley glad you enjoyed it as much as I did .
And as for the wish to change these Sues - it is more like fighting the wind-mill . It`s a plague smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/tongue.gif

Ophelia

[Daisy Brambleburr]

How on earth can a 15 year old write something as terrible as that? I'm only 16, but I like to think that I could do a *little* better... smilies/wink.gif It really makes you think though. How can someone be genuinley that awful?
Thanks for the PM Kalimac (I'd have replied, but your inbox was full). It helped clear things up, and now I know for sure that my characters not a Mary Sue. Lily, Boromir still dies (poo!) and I'd stay that she's pretty off-stage. She stays in Minas Tirith when Boromir goes off on his journey.

[Lathriel]

This story is just too funny. The Mary-Sues I thought of as a little girl are even better than this one.
The story is put together with the words "and then this, and then that, etc."
I just had to burst out lauging because it is so illogical! smilies/biggrin.gif
I never knew a fifteen year old could write so badly considering i am sixteen! smilies/eek.gif Just a year older!!!!!!

[The Dark Elf]

sounds like you pretty much nailed the mary-sue thing

[Kath]

Hi
i'm kinda new so if you've no idea who I am then don't worry.
I just wanted to say thank you to the person who posted that link to the story because it was the funniest thing I have read in ages.
So thanks.

[Sapphire_Flame]

Someone didn't get my question.

**If you're writing a character that looks to be becoming a Mary-Sue, how can you prevent this?**

Maybe we need to start a self-help thread for that...

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[mark12_30]

This information is posted in The Shire, in a thread called READ THIS BEFORE YOU POST: The Red Book of Westmarch (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=19&t=000005). I think Pio wrote it or most of it. Anyway there are some good basic guidelines that will help avoid Mary-Sue-isms, and here are some of them:

WEAPONS (No magical, super-hero, mithril weapons, implements, or jewelry. Just good solid Middle-earth weapons and armor only that is appropriate to the race of the character and the time period.):

PERSONALITY/STRENGTHS/WEAKNESSES: (No half-Elven characters. No mixed-type characters. No super-heroes. No assassins. No one all powerful, martial arts proficient, or having any magical traits. Just regular characters with normal abilities for their races only)

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Sounds like you're all set, Daisy! Good writing to you!

Sapphire_Flame, if your character has already violated most of the "do not" rules above, there are only three ways to escape:

1) Scrap her and start over, changing all the Sue qualities to non-sue qualities. If she's a beautiful ash-blonde half-elf assassin with one blue eye and one green eye, change her into a plump brown-haired, brown-eyed human woman who does something useful for a living like farming or trading. If she's in the fellowship, get her out of there! If she has special talents (like the ever-popular ability to communicate telepathically with animals), remove it.

2) Become such a skilled writer that no one cares that your story is a Mary-Sue. This is really difficult to do.

3) Write original fiction about your character. If it's your world, you call the shots. It's fine for the heroine to be beautiful, deadly and adored as long as she's in her own surroundings associating with other original characters. Many successful fantasy writers write stories about characters that reek of Mary-Sue, but it's acceptable because it's not fanfiction. Who needs Legolas? Create your own handsome elf-prince to fall madly in love with your character.

Cheers!
-Lily

[Morgul Queen]

Good one Ophelia, that one's almost on par with AW's MSTs (http://alswaiter.codedaemon.com/LOTR/). I swear, when I first read those I snorted sherbert out of my nose, listen to the warnings, they're there for a reason!

Another good site is Miss Cam's site (http://www.misssandman.com). there are 3 stories in particular that need checking out; OFUM, The Official Fanfiction University of Middle-earth, which is where bad Fanfic authors are sent to learn how to write good-fic, Suedom, which is about the antics of two unwilling Mary-Sues who are dragged into Middle-earth, and PPC, The Protecters of the Plot Continuum, where 'Sues meet their proper end smilies/wink.gif

Enjoy!

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 10:50 PM January 05, 2004: Message edited by: Morgul Queen ]

[Lathriel]

Belated reply to dark elf
I guess i do
But hey when you don't have a T.V for the first 10 years of you life, what can you do?

[Sapphire_Flame]

Thank 'ee much, Lily. *bows*

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Ophelia]

Newest shocking info about that Mary Sue thing`s author - she lives in the UK !!! If you noticed that fine grammer this girl of most interesting writing skills and really developed fantasy , you shall know the shocking moment it needs to give you smilies/biggrin.gif

Ophe

[Lalaith]

You know, having read all these excellent definitions, it just struck me - Luthien is the ultimate Mary Sue.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

All bets are off when the character is in her own world. Luthien would have been a Mary-Sue if Tolkien had inserted her into a King Arthur fanfic, but since she's in her own world, she's absolutely legitimate.

Behold the freedom of writing original fiction. smilies/wink.gif

You're welcome, Sapphire_Flame. Good writing to you! smilies/smile.gif I'm sorry if my advice seems harsh -- just remember that reviewers are harsher.

Cheers!
-Lily

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:19 PM January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Lily Bracegirdle ]

[symestreem]

I disagree with the definition of "Mary-Sue" as stated here. Or maybe I don't think Mary-Sues are necessarily a bad thing. Lily said that all bets are off when the character is in its original world- that's true, but also, the authors of books about which fanfics are written are much better authors than 99.99999999999% of fanfic authors. They are better able to make their characters realistic.
My advice to a fanfic writer would be to write whatever you want, as long as A) it fits the fandom (no droids in Middle-earth unless you have a logical way of getting them there) and B) you can make it believable. If you want to have Aragorn act totally out of character, you better have a reason. Perhaps the Ring corrupted him, for example.
If measured by fanfic standards, many characters in ME would be MSs or GLs. But Tolkien makes them believable, which is the whole key to any good writing.
That said, I realize that that is very hard for a writer to do. The guidelines that everybody's posted look very helpful to the 99% of us who can't make our stories and characters believable enough to have red-haired, violet-eyed telepathic half-elven mages!

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:22 PM January 11, 2004: Message edited by: symestreem ]

[Er-Murazor]

A good definition. A plague of good fanfiction. An enemy to destroy before it covers all the web with a cloud of darkness

[Sapphire_Flame]

I'm sorry if my advice seems harsh -- just remember that reviewers are harsher.
It's okay. I appriciate it anyway; I knew my character was something of a Sue (litmus tests usually give me "Borderline Sue" when I test this character), and I'm just looking for tips to improve her. Some things I just refuse point-blank to change (her connexions to the Fellowship), but plenty of things are negotiable, so outside opinions are always helpful.

Also, symestreem, that's a very good definition of MSs. That's the one I tend to go by. If I can't believe the character, I can't believe the story, and so I leave. Thank you for posting that! smilies/biggrin.gif

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[symestreem]

And also, why the injunction against half-elven? There were several of them.

[Morgul Queen]

Yes I know that there were several Half-elves in Middle-earth, however, almost every 'Sue is Half-elven.

Example: The 'Sue I am working on now is the Grandaughter of Gandalf (who apparently married a mortal and had a baby daughter, who then married the son of Galadriel [or perhaps I should say Galadrial] and Celeborn, whose name is, apparently, Halnar).

This is implausable, it would never happen, and there, right *there* is the problem! And then of course, she up and joins Thorin and Co. in their quest. *sigh* At least the Hobbit is my domain...the 'Sue will not remain unsmitten for long... smilies/evil.gif

[Everdawn]

How on earth can a 15 year old write something as terrible as that? I'm only 16, but I like to think that I could do a *little* better... It really makes you think though. How can someone be genuinley that awful?

Well im 16 and i wrote this Play for Drama in which one guy was tortured by his enemy( it was really as graphic as we could get it), Everyone in my drama class thought it was famtastic, so did the Arts dept. Teachers, but when it was performed, the teacher in the rest of the school were pretty uneasy about it knowing id written it. So it just goes to show, even the most perky dumb-blonde can have a horrible imagination. smilies/biggrin.gif

>>Anyway
I thought Luthien was a bit of a mary sue when i first read about her and Beren, and you know what. I still think she is.

But above all, i love it when you get a fanfic where there is this unbelieveable beautiful maiden, who happend to be the most talanted singer in the world and the most skilled sword fighter/archer/(both) and they "pay her out"... (or as it is know in England "Taking the mickey."
Only works in Comedy though, fantastic. Im trying ot find a good one like that but cant seem to. Anyone know of one?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Everdawn, we do have a Mary Sue parody RPG right here on the Downs - [shameless plug] you can find the first part, The Revenge of the Entish Bow, on the Elvenhome forum, and the second part, The Reunification of the Entish Bow is in progress on the Gondor forum [/shameless plug].

[Everdawn]

Thanks Estelyn!

Guys i found this LOTR Mary-sue one, ok i dont know if anyone has posted it, but it's funn as!
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1636892&chapter=1

Enjoy.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

And also, why the injunction against half-elven? There were several of them.

Pio, I think, said something to this effect: Tolkien needed them for the story. If your only purpose of making your character Half-Elven is to make her stand out, or give her abilities from both races, then kick your her all the way to the Encircling Seas. And beyond.

Surefire cures for Merisus(or is it Mary-Sues?): Wake them up. Or unplug them from the Matrix. They live in a perfect world - could it be a dream? Or a prison for their minds?

Later days! smilies/cool.gif
->Elenrod-lou

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:52 AM January 21, 2004: Message edited by: Nilpaurion Felagund ]

[Ophelia]

Everdawn , I thank you eternaly for you posting the link . It was so truley true `till the bone smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

Ophe

[Ainaserkewen]

I just wanted to thow my personal definition/opinion on Mary Sues. I can rarely stand Mary-Sues at all. One, because often the author leaves our any good info on the character, making her the same as any other run of the mill, standoffish protaganist female. Half-Elven Mary-Sues are crazy most of the time. The real half-Elven(of course I mean in LOTR) serve some purpose to the plot, most mary-sues don't. I admit that I wrote quite a few Mary-Sues in my early teens, but I didn't write fanfics back then so all my characters were exchange students with red hair and the attention of everyone surrounding her. I guess my dislike of everybody else's mary-sues stems from the fact that I can see alot of my early writting in them. My definition of a Mary-Sue is that she gets everything she wants in the end.

A) it fits the fandom (no droids in Middle-earth unless you have a logical way of getting them there)
Hear Hear, I'll drink to that. I once read a crossover Inuyasha/LOTR, it was crazy how the author got them to interact AND STAY TRUE TO THE STORIES! That's talent. I have quite a soft spot for a good crossover fic.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I'd like to change gears a little bit and present the other side of the Mary-Sue phenomenon. Have any of you read any Mary-Sues that you would actually recommend as good reading? At the risk of seriously p*ssing off the author, I'd like to share one with you.

In the interests of discretion, I won't post the title or author's name here, but you can read the story here:

The Best Written Mary-Sue I've Ever Read (http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=556538)

This author has chosen the #2 option: "Become such a good writer no one cares your story is a Mary-Sue." By some of your definitions, you may not consider it a 'Sue at all. I think it's a good model of what to do if you feel your story is becoming a 'Sue.

Why this story is a Mary-Sue:
1) The heroine has a tragic past.
2) The heroine has a distinctive appearance.
3) She is a long-lost heir of a noble house.
4) She communicates with animals.
5) All right-thinking characters like her.
6) She is romantically entangled with three canon characters.
7) She fights.
8) She has two nicknames that are nouns.

Why you won't care:
1) Interesting plot.
2) Good writing that is beta-read.
3) Canon characters for the most part stay in character.
4) After receiving "Great story, but it's a Mary-Sue" reviews, the author took pains to make the heroine less 'Sue-ish by having characters dislike her, having her act b*tchy and human sometimes and having her *not* end up with one of the canon characters that we know ends up with someone else.

One word of warning: this story is very long. However, you don't need to read the etire thing to get a feel for it.

Any other readable Sues out there? Or comments on this one?

Cheers!
-Lily

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:00 PM January 21, 2004: Message edited by: Lily Bracegirdle ]

[Elennar Starfire]

Could someone please tell me what OC means?

[mark12_30]

Either it means "Original Character", or, I'm confused too.

[Saraphim]

Ophelia! that was the funniest, yet most depressing things I have ever read. That girl must not have even watched the movies, let alone even read the back covers of the books!
May the ghost of Tolkien have mercy on her.

Anyway>> I once wrote a fan fic for the BD, but whoever screens them apperently found one of my characters to be Mary-Sue after a couple of chapters. So here I am trying to discern why.
Ah well. We must all learn from our mistakes, but I'm afraid that poor girl with the Laura-Sue should seriously consider never going near a pen, pencil, or microsoft word ever again. smilies/frown.gif

[Ainaserkewen]

4) After receiving "Great story, but it's a Mary-Sue" reviews, the author took pains to make the heroine less 'Sue-ish by having characters dislike her, having her act b*tchy and human sometimes and having her *not* end up with one of the canon characters that we know ends up with someone else.
Making other characters like her less and her showing off her "not-so-nice" side in my opinion doesn't make her less of a Sue. I once read a terrible Mary-Sue where the protagonist is beautiful, is on the arm of Kaiba Seto(the richest 17 year old ever) and has all these great (canon charater) friends. Other characters were put there to "get in her way" kind of a pathetic attempt to create conflict, they have cat fights, but everybody else still loves the Sue best even though she has emotions like jealousy and hatred and stuff. I shall read that fan fic you mentioned Lily, and get back to you.

[Sapphire_Flame]

I have started to read the "Best Mary-Sue Fic Ever", and I do have to agree with that title; it is beautifully written. I'm really enjoying it. Hannon le for the link! smilies/biggrin.gif

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Elennar Starfire]

Another question I have on fanfic, though a bit off-topic. What is slash? Something not good, I believe?

[Tinker]

Ah slash. "Something not good, I believe?"

Well now, that's a matter of personal beliefs is it not? Both on the books and life.

But before I drown in Deep Thought, I'll tell you. Slash is fanfiction that involves same-gender relationships. Sometimes (okay okay, most times) it is sexual. Not a huge fan of it myself, though I have glanced at a few and read some amazingly done ones where the slash was purely emotional (or at least Love was put forward rather than Sex).

As Far as Tolkien goes, you can find a lot of Sam/Frodo, a fair bit of Merry/Pippin slash, and some other varities I can't think of right now. I remember reading a fanfiction once where those hobbits got connected to the internet and read those stories. It was hilarious. If I could only remember where it was.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

The term slash comes from the slash mark "/" that is put between the names of the same-sex couple (usually men) in question. (Same sex romance stories involving women are sometimes called "fem-slash".) The more "dominant" male's name is usually written before the "/". I think slash first showed up in Star Trek fanfiction, where apparently Kirk/Spock stories were the rage for a while. (Eurrgh.)

Another popular pair in Middle Earth fanfiction seems to be Aragorn/Legolas. I have stayed away from ME slash stories, mostly because the characters are made to say and do the most out-of-character things. Who could really believe that Aragorn would dump Arwen for *anybody*? Or that Legolas would weep constantly over him? smilies/rolleyes.gif

-Lily

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:39 PM January 24, 2004: Message edited by: Lily Bracegirdle ]

[Elennar Starfire]

Many thanks for enlightening my ignorance! (eeyuch though!)

[dragoneyes]

Slash can be hilarious, sometimes you don't even need to read the story and you burst out laughing, the pairings alone are amazing, for example, I have seen a Legolas/Smaug story smilies/eek.gif I didn't read it, even though it looked to be *ahem* interesting.

I have found the hobbits-read-slash-on-the-internet (http://www.ninecompanions.net/HUMOR/ohthehorror.html) story.

Anyhow, I have had my fair share of Mary-Sues, they can be hard to avoid in RPGs (though I find hobbits are very hard to Mary-Sueize and so try to play them a lot). When reading fanfiction I try to steer clear of any with original characters, not only do they not hold the same interest for me as canon characters, but they slip very easily into the role of Mary-Sues and are very hard to redeem afterwards.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:32 PM January 25, 2004: Message edited by: dragoneyes ]

[Tinker]

Squee! That's the story. Thank you dragoneyes. My little barrow is lighted again with such humor.


I htink Mary-Sues are unavoidable. I've way too many stories that are unfinished, because I have to rethink the character to drag her out of Mary-Sue Land. Even so, I freely admit that each and everyone of my RPGing characters starts out as a Mary-Sue ::: hangs head in shame::: BUT! Then I look at the traits and start chipping things away until the character's more rounded.

So I supose they're aren't as completly evil as I had first thought. In fact they're pretty good starting points, as long as you keep an eye one them and chip away every so often.


Did I just Squee?

[Elennar Starfire]

Legolas/Smaug? smilies/eek.gif Sounds like someone smoked a little too much pipeweed!

That link to the hobbit story isn't working for me! smilies/frown.gif

Anyway, one more question, and this time it's on topic!

so no fics about Pippin's love interest unless her name is Diamond of Long Cleave

As that is as good an example for me to use as any, I shall use it!

Supposing you have an OC in Middle-Earth and Pippin has a romantic interest in her. She has no special powers or great beauty and is not adored by everyone, she does not change events in any significant way, she dies or is otherwise removed from the story, and Pippin presumably returns to the Shire and marries Diamond. Is she a Sue?

Edit: Yes, Tinker, you squeed.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:38 PM January 25, 2004: Message edited by: Elennar Starfire ]

[Lalaith]

Legolas and Smaug? Good God, that is the most, er, ahem, inventive thing I've ever heard of.
I have never read any slash, but that I would read, just for the sheer bizarreness of it. Oh please, someone find the link and post it.

[Tinker]

Hmmm..let's run your idea through the checklist, shall we Starfire?

Supposing you have an OC in Middle-Earth and Pippin has a romantic interest in her.

Potential Mary-Sue.

She has no special powers or great beauty and is not adored by everyone,

HURRAY!

she does not change events in any significant way,

Again Hurray!

she dies or is otherwise removed from the story,

awwwwwww...

and Pippin presumably returns to the Shire and marries Diamond. Is she a Sue?

Well..that's a yes and no according to the list. Being a female whom one of the Fellowship has in romantic interest in walks that line. So does the dieing. As for being "otherwise removed" that something you need to handle very delicatly, as that is a major Mary-Sue maker.

You'd also have to answer Reader question such as,

"If she doesn't change things in a significant way, why are we reading about her? Why should I care?" A not-quite-Sueish answer is that she helps change Pippin in a small yet significant way (the little things you know,) that help him accept his situation (whatever that may be)so that he can go marry Diamond and live happily hobbity for ever after.

So in answer to your question: your outline describes a potential Sue, which is good, because the best original characters can be made from those. Just watch yourself when you're writing.

I apologize if you were expecting a simple yes/no answer.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:26 PM January 25, 2004: Message edited by: Tinker ]

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Legolas and Smaug? With Leggy as tops? smilies/eek.gif Sounds mighty dangerous, not to mention abrasive. smilies/biggrin.gif

I saw a funny story where Faramir and Eomer are trapped in a cave by a torrential downpour, at which point Eomer goes off about how it's some fangirl's attempt to get them nude together. It used to be at ff.net but I can't seem to find it. Drat.

The hobbit link isn't working for me either. smilies/frown.gif

Elennar Starfire, it doesn't sound as if your OC is a Sue. Killing her off is a teeny bit 'Sue-ish, but can be easily overlooked if the rest of the story is non-Sue-y. Having things just not work out between her and Pippin would be even less Sue-ish. Actually, I don't think I've ever seen a 'Sue that was a hobbit -- or a dwarf. They're usually elves, half-elves or humans. Or something weird, like vampires or "half-unicorns."

Ainaserkewen, how do you like the fic? I just saw that it's been finished by the author -- rather abruptly, IMO, which I was sorry to see. The story you described sounds awful. Most of the 'Sues I've seen have been all sweetness-n-light, but you're right, that one being evil didn't make her less of a 'Sue.

-Lily

[Tinker]

To you having trouble with the Hobbit Link:

When I click on it the page comes up. http:// http:// and then the rest of the address. if that's waht its doing for you than simply delete one of the http:// s. If not..ummmm...fill yer pipe and dream about dragons and elves fer a while. Especially ones attacking Mary-Sues in splendid dragon and elf fashion.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:34 PM January 25, 2004: Message edited by: Tinker ]

[dragoneyes]

Aah yes, sorry about that link, I fixed it so it should work now, very amusing.

Lalaith, I would post the link but it's rather explicit (I only had to scan it to see that) but I could PM it to you if you wished, it's more Legolas and Aragorn and an own character, wonder if it's a Marty-Stu.

Half unicorn? Half unicorn half what? That's just plain odd...

[Lalaith]

Thanks dragoneyes, I actually googled and found it.
It was quite well written but there wasn't that much Smaug, it was a bit less weird (ie less funny) than I'd hoped...

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I've never actually seen a fic with a "half-unicorn" in it -- it was something I saw on a "Middle Earth Mary-Sue Litmus Test." I would assume it's half-human or half-elf. Either that or it's just half of a unicorn. Perhaps the left half? smilies/wink.gif

Has anyone ever seen a hobbit Sue? Maybe I haven't because I don't read many hobbit-centric stories.

Maybe we should write our own Sue stories. I dare anyone to write a dwarf-Sue. Or an Uruk-sue.

Glori-Sue, daughter of Gloin, was a young dwarf maid barely in her forties. Her gossamer hair and beard were a beautiful strawberry-blonde, and were braided together with threads of mithril. Her startlingly vivid eyes, one green and the other black, seemed to pierce the soul, and her beautiful baritone voice could stun the very birds from the sky. Of course, she taught her brother Gimli everything he knew about axe-fighting, for she had been trained in the secret arts of the Dwarf-ninjas from the age of two...

Cheers!
-Lily

[Elennar Starfire]

I apologize if you were expecting a simple yes/no answer.

No, I wasn't. yes/no answers aren't much help. Thank you! (yes/no...that looks like a slash...heheheheheh...this could be interesting... smilies/evil.gif)

I don't think a half-unicorn would be possible, unless it was half-horse or half-zebra or something like that. It would be just too weird otherwise!

Maybe we should write our own Sue stories. I dare anyone to write a dwarf-Sue. Or an Uruk-sue.

Glori-Sue, daughter of Gloin, was a young dwarf maid barely in her forties. Her gossamer hair and beard were a beautiful strawberry-blonde, and were braided together with threads of mithril. Her startlingly vivid eyes, one green and the other black, seemed to pierce the soul, and her beautiful baritone voice could stun the very birds from the sky. Of course, she taught her brother Gimli everything he knew about axe-fighting, for she had been trained in the secret arts of the Dwarf-ninjas from the age of two...


Teeheehee! Wonderful thought! This could be quite amusing! An Uruk-sue, hahahaha! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Kransha]

Ah, Mary-Sues, the scourge of literature. If you've ever read a published book with a Mary-Sue in it (yes, there are some) then it makes you hate them all the more.

I actually have a major problem avoiding Mary-Sueism in my writings, not in terms of character pefection, but in terms of canon. My most prosperous story so far doesn't involve any characters from LotR, since it takes place after, but does have some of their descendants. I always have to do extra research to make sure that I don't defy the laws of Tolkein when creating characters.

[Ainaserkewen]

I can weather slash much more than Mary-Sues these days. My favourite fanfic of all time (LOTR) is slashy, but it's so cleverly written that it can be over looked. It's kinda graphic, so if you want to know where to find it, ask me, I don't want to get in trouble for posting. It's a Frodo/Legolas thing, quite amusing. You know what I can't stand though is Sam/Frodo. It just agrivates me. Maybe because after the trip, Sam goes and has like 13 kids.

[Sapphire_Flame]

Has anyone ever seen a hobbit Sue?
I've been accused of writing one. I'm trying to improve my skills so the writing is so good that no one will really care though. ^^;;; I'm just really attatched to her; and sorry, I've broken the "Pippin Rule" that's been stated above. *hides from bricks being hurled in her general direction*

ssssss...

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Finwe]

(very late reaction, but...)


I just read the story that Ophelia posted! It reinforces the fact that I should never eat or drink anything while reading posts on the Barrow-Downs! I nearly fell off my chair laughing! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Morgul Queen]

My favourite FanFiction story is also a little bit slashy, namely AC's 'The Folly of Starlight'. Granted, some bits are rather explicit, but AC has put a lot of thought and effort into it.

One of the major plot lines in FOS is an exploration of the idea that Lagolas and Thranduil may have had a Vanyar ancestor. The main pairing is Elrond/Legolas, but also has several mentions of Gil-Galad/Elrond.

I have posted about this fic before and if you really want the link, PM me.......or just take a little trip to LoM.

Something I have discovered in FanFiction is that the people who write slash have to work a whole lot harder to make their writing fit with canon....if done right this usually results in an original and well thought out plot.

Then, of course, you get the ridiculous, like the the aformentioned Legolas/Smaug, or a Balrog/Witch-King, or even a Aragorn/Brego (the horse).

Morgul, currently trying to destroy the A/L pairing for ever. Why won't it dieeeeeeeeee?

[Lyta_Underhill]

I found this thread some time ago and I've finally managed to get through the rather painful "Laura-Sue" fiction. Thanks for linking that, Ophelia!. I must say it heartens me in some ways, as I'm pretty sure I simply cannot write that badly, or if I did, I would never post it on the internet for all to see. I do, however, have a desire to write fanfiction sometimes and have written a bit in the distant past. Lord of the Rings has been different, though, and I cannot seem to even begin to picture a fictional effort on my own part to hold up to the immense force of Tolkien's creation. I'm pretty sure I do not wish to create a new and self-inhabited character (i.e. "Mary Sue"), but neither can I seem to fathom a story that is both canon and true to the intricate world that Tolkien created. So, I guess my question for Tolkien fanfiction writers is: where and how do you get your ideas? I don't have that much time for reading, and so I don't really read much fanfiction that has multiple chapters (or if I did, I could not finish it due to time constraints).

As for slash fiction, I think my brain is too deeply enmeshed in the Tolkien-centered view to allow it in my ME worldview; all the same, I am much amused by the VSD's and dragoneyes' linked fiction above of the hobbits reading slash on a laptop! smilies/wink.gif Humor allows for much anachronism. That said, I have written a grand total of ONE LOTR fanfiction, and that one in 45 minutes for a contest for the Eowyn Challenge site. It was too silly for words (although I managed to find some with which to compose it) and also completely off the beam, storywise.

I suppose I'm not too worried about whether I would write a Mary Sue, but more with whether my story would reflect the spirit of Tolkien's world adequately to be worth writing...at least that is my dream. No luck on writing it yet! Anyone else in my boat?

Cheers!
Lyta

[Morgul Queen]

I guess the main idea for me is to take the most outragous thing that I can and make it plausible. My latest Nuzgul is one of Celebrimbor being half Teleri. How to make it work?

Silver or gold hair is uncommon among the Noldor and those who do have such unusual tresses normally have some mention of it in their names (Glorfindel, Galadriel etc) so I imagine that the particle 'Celeb' would be rather unusual in Noldorin names. So now I ave a silver haired Celebrimbor and have to make it believable, hence Curufin's wife being a Teleri!

See, it kinda goes...you've just got to try and make it work in the laws of Tolkien. I can't find a plausible way of making my Treebeard/Shelob Nuzgul work however...

Try lots of different ways to get inspiration, music is a good inspiration, especially the pre-90's music, personally I use Sinead O'Connor, Led Zepplinn, and Pink Floyd, but whatever you go for goes.

[kittiegirl]

See, my story, I'm trying to make it as realistic and charahterly(is that a word?)accurate as possible.
I'm re-writting a bit of it too, so that'll be better.

But, yeah, I know what a Mary-Sue is now.

[Finwe]

Aragorn and Brego?!?!?! These people are sick!!!! That person needs to be carted away to a mental asylum (along with the lunatic(s) who wrote the Legolas/Smaug fic!).

[Elennar Starfire]

I have rethought that potential story I posted earlier, made it (hopefully) as non-Sue as possible, without changing it entirely.

As for being "otherwise removed" that something you need to handle very delicatly, as that is a major Mary-Sue maker

I think I have the solution to that: It was all her dream, she wakes up.

You'd also have to answer Reader question such as,
"If she doesn't change things in a significant way, why are we reading about her? Why should I care?"


It's not a story about how she changes events, but about how events change her.

Also, she will not like (not that way, anyhow) whichever canon character I decide has an interest in her.

I think it will be interesting to see how this all turns out...

Maybe we should write our own Sue stories. I dare anyone to write a dwarf-Sue. Or an Uruk-sue.

I started that Uruk-Sue... I only have about the first two sentences, but it's a start! I had such an excellent description of her orcish beauty (or what an orc might consider beautiful smilies/evil.gif) but I didn't write it down when I thought it up and now I've forgotten it. smilies/confused.gif

[Lyta_Underhill]

Well, I'm finally attempting to write something. It is truly awful, but I am having fun writing it! That's the most important part. No Mary Sue--Frodo, Sam and Gollum are the only characters besides random orcs and a bunch of props. (I suppose one might say that Frodo is close to being my potential Mary-Sue (Frodo-Sue?) of sorts, since I identify with him. Does that count?) No romance of any sort, though, as it is set in the decidedly un-romantic setting of the Stairs and Tower of Cirith Ungol. It is a study in absurdity, really--almost a comedy but it isn't funny enough.

And, Morgul Queen, what's a Nuzgul? I commend you for going as far as postulating the parentage and characteristics of Celebrimbor in this way. Of course, there are rogue genes in the Noldor themselves, aren't there? I always wondered if Nerdanel and her descendants were the only red-headed Elves (it could be a recessive trait even through Curufin, couldn't it?) I suppose you could prove almost anything if it doesn't conflict utterly. Also, I think they used the prefix Celeb- for any silver part of them, i.e., Celebrindal "Silver foot" I think. The only problem with Elves is the amazing volumes of HoME I haven't read! smilies/rolleyes.gif

I think I'll wait until I'm a little better at it to try the "Uruk-Sue," although that is an amusing thought! "The Littlest Orc in Moria," a tale by Mary Sue Ugluk! smilies/wink.gif Best of luck with your Uruk-Sue Elennar! smilies/biggrin.gif

Cheers,
Lyta

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:54 AM January 28, 2004: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[Ainaserkewen]

I guess the main idea for me is to take the most outragous thing that I can and make it plausible. That's what I've been doing alot lately. Only instead of taking random facts and welding them together...I've been experimenting with crossover fics. They're hard, but if you take LOTR and two other stories you are familiar with and make them believably cross over, it's so much fun. I'll post my story when it's finished, or when LOTR gets melded in. It's more Silmarillion actually.

I read a Legolas/Smaug fic and it's real huey. It was so funny I cried. If anyone really likes Lotr slash,library of moria (http://www.libraryofmoria.com/) hosts every combination you can think of. Really, it's almost too weird.

[Morgul Queen]

A Nuzgul is a LotR plotbunnie. they were created by a misspelling like Long Table Elrond, OFUM's resident immortal table created by a missing comma, the Mini-Balrogs, the Wringwraiths and so on and so forth.

Hey, um...please don't write crossovers. As and agent I'll have to alert the detanglers...and they hate detangling! They have one of the highest insanity rates at the PPC.

Trolls, oh the possibilities! smilies/biggrin.gif When we were all writing BadFic for OFUM we had some truly horrendus ones. The Aragorn/Brego, a Elrond-gets-turned-into-a-girl one. If you want to know haw to write truly horrible fic, go to www.misssandman.com (http://www.misssandman.com). Alternativly, go to FanFiction.net (http://www.fanfiction.net).

Meir Brin (also on FF.net) has an outragously funny story called 'Master Suelove' How I came to love the 'Sue. *snort*

[Sapphire_Flame]

So what's a plotbunnie? *looks horribly confused* I should know, I really should, but school has officially melted my brain...

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

EDIT: typo...

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:19 AM January 29, 2004: Message edited by: Sapphire_Flame ]

[Finwe]

Morgul Queen and Lyta, Celebrimbor didn't necessarily have to have Telerin heritage. Miriel Serindë, his great-grandmother, had silver hair, so he could have inherited it from her. Besides, how do we know that he had silver hair? It could just be a name. Idril was nicknamed Celebrindal because when she danced, her feet flashed like silver, they definitely weren't silver-colored! And we know for a fact that she had golden hair. The name "Celebrimbor" could just be a name, and not have some ulterior meaning.

[dragoneyes]

I do believe a plotbunnie is an idea that hops into your head and you just have to write it (or something of that nature).

I am glad that (apart from in the library of Moria) there are hardly any own character slashes, imagine what havoc could be wrought with a mary-sue (or marty-stu) slash. *shudder* Doesn't bear (or is it bare?) thinking about.

The best fics to write are the short ones, I wrote ones about what ringwraiths think and what their horses think, they were nice and short and don't swerve from canon too much if at all (heck, how do you know what they're thinking) but then again, I can write the strangest things, I don't like the cliched stories.

[Lyta_Underhill]

The name "Celebrimbor" could just be a name, and not have some ulterior meaning. I think it means "silver hand" so I am supposing his hands flash like silver, or it is a statement about his amazing prowess in craftsmanship. I suppose we've just gotten spoiled by Celeborn having silver in his name and on his head! smilies/biggrin.gif (Doesn't Celeborn mean "silver tree" or something like that?) Maybe Celeborn should have had a tree growing out of his head! smilies/wink.gif

Anyway, a plotbunnie I do know, although I've always spelled it with a -y and not an -ie. So a Nuzgul is merely the LOTR form of this, eh? I do indeed remember from the few (very amusing!) chapters of the OFUM fiction I managed to read about "mini-balrogs"!
Meir Brin (also on FF.net) has an outragously funny story called 'Master Suelove' How I came to love the 'Sue. *snort* Verrrry amusing idea! I wonder if it is structured like "Dr. Strangelove" or not? (haven't looked for it yet) As I recall, Dr. Strangelove was adapted from a book that was completely serious, real Cold War scare stuff, and yet, they managed to make a biting comedy/satire out of it! Ah, but I have my own plotbunnie/Nuzgul to work out, so...

I take my leave. smilies/wink.gif

Cheers!
Lyta

[Arcuwen]

I do, however, have a desire to write fanfiction sometimes and have written a bit in the distant past. Lord of the Rings has been different, though, and I cannot seem to even begin to picture a fictional effort on my own part to hold up to the immense force of Tolkien's creation.

I have had the same problem. I have written a couple fanfics in my day, but as I reread them now and compare it to the works of Tolkien themselves they have all experienced a trip to the paper shredder. I feel as if I butcher the original story in my attempt to add something to it or fabricate a spinoff of some sort. So my creativity has been put to a better use as I have created my own fantasy story which will be on my website if/when I ever get that up and running... smilies/rolleyes.gif

Now that I think of my failed attempts at ME fanfiction, I see that my main character fits almost every definition of a MS. Eeek! Oh well, I was young and stupid smilies/tongue.gif . One last thought before someone hits me with a brick for rambling: I have read about characters that are disliked by everyone and have an almost "punk" attitude nearly as much as I have come across 'Sues. Is that the new Sue? Or am I just a complete idiot? Oh, wait, don't answer that last question...

[Elennar Starfire]

I am writing an original fiction as well, and I want to be sure my main character is not too Sue-ish, even though she can't be a Sue because it's not fanfiction. Anyway, I have been going through the Sue checklist...

-the hero is a girl
Yes, this is true.
-she has an exotic name
Again true, but her name is somewhat important to the plot. I have a reason for her to have an exotic name.
-her eyes, hair or both are an unusual colour
Maybe so, but only if there aren't too many more things checked off on this list. Again, I have a reason.
-the writer’s favourite character falls in love with her
Who is my favorite character...Nope, that's not going to happen!
-she has all the good characteristics the writer would like to have herself
Um, no. She's got a rather bad attitude. I find her quite bratty.
-she has none or very few flaws in her personality: she is kind to everyone, brave, beautiful, sickeningly sweet…
As I just said, she's bratty. She's also a bit of a coward.
-she often has immense supernatural abilities
Nope, none of those.
-everything in the story is centred around her
Well, she is the main character!
-she makes other characters behave uncharacteristically
They can't, as they come from my head. They behave however I want them to.
-she often sings (but not all singers are Mary-Sues)
She can sing when she wants to, but doesn't think she can, therefore doesn't very often.
Do not make her royalty of any type.
I haven't decided yet if she's royalty, but there's a good chance of it.
Do not have her die and have everyone cry over her loss.
Nope, she's not dying!
Tortured pasts are forbidden.
No tortured past.
As are mystery pasts.
Oh dear! Not good! She doesn't know anything about her past...but she doesn't know she doesn't know.

So, that's 3 definate yesses, 6 definate nos, 3 maybes, and 2 non-applicable to original fiction. I guess that makes her not too Sue-ish. Whew!

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:25 PM January 31, 2004: Message edited by: Elennar Starfire ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

Good idea, Elennar! The checklist! I had a plotbunnie that hit with a vengeance (and the bad thing is that it is too complicated to write quickly!) and it derailed my comic fiction and now threatens to derail much more. So, here goes with the Sue checklist, just to make sure there's not a danger of putridity in the works...but I seriously doubt it, as the only original characters are touchstones and not the main focus:

-the hero is a girl
No, hero is Pippin

-she has an exotic name
his name is Pippin (Mr. Peregrin Took!)

-her eyes, hair or both are an unusual colour
sea green eyes (oh, is that unusual-I don't think Tolkien specified, so I'll go with the Billy model!); hair is "almost golden"

-the writer’s favourite character falls in love with her

Well, my favorite characters are Frodo and Pippin, so no, Frodo does not fall for Pippin or vice versa

-she has all the good characteristics the writer would like to have herself
Well, yes, I'd love to be like Pippin in some ways!

-she has none or very few flaws in her personality: she is kind to everyone, brave, beautiful, sickeningly sweet…
We all know what Pippin's like! ;)

-she often has immense supernatural abilities
Nope, just a sword of Westernesse and some really cool armor from Gondor! Oh, and he talks to trees...

-everything in the story is centred around her
not exactly, but he is the focus

-she makes other characters behave uncharacteristically
Oh, I hope not!

-she often sings (but not all singers are Mary-Sues)
Sing, Pippin, Sing!!!!

Do not make her royalty of any type.
Not royalty, but will someday be Thain of the Shire and a Counselor of the North Kingdom!

Do not have her die and have everyone cry over her loss.
Not set that far ahead in time!

Tortured pasts are forbidden.
Pippin? Tortured past? Tee hee!

As are mystery pasts.

No more mystery than the parts Tolkien left out for us latecomers to fill in!

Not a Sue. :D
I suppose I can continue writing now!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Morgul Queen]

I think there are two meanings to Celebrimbor's name, I read in an essay somewhere (I think it may have been one of AC's or Emma's) that the other one is Silver-Counsellor. But that's just me taking a Nuzgul and running with it.

I think there are two meanings to Celebrimbor's name, I read in an essay somewhere (I think it may have been one of AC's or Emma's) that the other one is Silver-Counsellor. But that's just me taking a Nuzgul and running with it.


[EDIT: Estelyn asked me to delete this part of the post, I don't have a homepage, but if you want to read it PM me. Oh, and Esty? Thanks for being nice, you won't believe some of the things that people say to us Assassins!]

[symestreem]

Here is my challenge to all of you. It's quite simple:

Write a fan-fiction story containing a Mary-Sue. Give her oodles of Sueish traits! Pile them on like chocolate! The catch: make her realistic. Or if you prefer, make a Gary-Lou (but still realistic). You don't have to share them, although if you feel like it please do. I suppose I could make a collection site or something. Well, good luck.

[Evisse the Blue]

Cool thread, very educational and fun! I'm all clear now on what's a Mary Sue. Though I dont read much LOTR fic, much less write any, I can tell there's a plague of them out there. Ick! I only just realized that my sister, who's a lotr fic writer (though thankfully never posted anything on the net yet, is an avid Mary Sue writer. Maybe I'll get hold of one of her stories once so I can get a second opionion from you guys, to make sure I don't make false accusations against her. Anyway, her excuse is that she's only 15, and she hasn't written anything so moronic as the "Laura Sue" fic from Ophelia's link. (:D :D)
I went to the library of moria link out of curiosity (I read slash before though not LOTR related) and I must say I was surprised at the quality of some of the stories. Laugh if you will but I thought the Balrog/WK one and the Elrond/Ugluk one were very well done. Don't judge them untill you've read them! Also, I found an Elrond/ Smeagol one in verse, which is just hilarious. I have yet to find the Legolas/Smaug one, though.

Symestreem, as regards your challenge I remember there was a similar one at the henneth annun site (the link to it was already given in this thread), only the requirement was to make them 'well-written', I guess this would include realistic (?) You guys might want to check those out.

Oh, and a question regarding these MS's: If the MS represents the wish fulfillments of the author, sort of an ideal alter ego, why are there so many instances of traumatic past/ present and/or future? What - Is it some sort of death wish?? And should this criterion for a Mary Sue be held so important?

[symestreem]

Tortured pasts are the easiest way to give a Sue emotional complexity. Also an excuse for her to break down crying in a handsome elf/man/tomato's arms. Also, killing off all family members can be an easy way to get them out of the story. Plus, instant sympathy for the Sue, and a reason for her to be "tough girl".

[StarJewel]

Sues...every time I see one, I want to just bay at the moon. It's really a shame how much is out there, because it tends to distract people from finding the really good stories. I write fanfiction, (mainly Silmarillion based) and know firsthand what writing a Sue is like. The thing is, I don't think people who write Sues realize that they are writing them. I very nearly ended up with a Sue-like character, but, thank heaven, someone called me on it. It is very easy to lapse into something like that.

[Morgul Queen]

Silm!Fic? *bows to ye* Is it good? Does it stick to canon? Do I need to kill any of your characters?

[Sapphire_Flame]

Yeah, go get 'em, Morgy! ^ ^

That's a good checklist you put together, Elennar. I may have to apply it to my almost-Sue to try to fix her.

BTW, I have found an interesting article concerning 'Sues. It can be found HERE (http://ljconstantine.com/column6.htm), along with many other good articles on writing. The fandom she uses for reference is Star Trek, but the ideas are applicable no matter what fandom you're writing in.

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Encaitare]

I once began writing a Mary-Sue *twitch* it was a *twitch* Legolas/MS fic *grimace* but now I think he's a pansy and realized what I wrote was absolute crap, so I don't have to worry about it anymore! I sent the first part to my friend to read, and she liked it, but I found it horrific and deleted it.

My heroine wasn't *that* perfect, though. She wasn't exceptional in appearance (she was pretty, yes, but not violet-eyed and silver-haired) or the singing type (thank Elbereth!) or magical in any way. She was handy with a sword though. But again, it was crap.

I now try to avoid Mary-Sues at all costs, in reading and in writing. Although, a well-written Sue can actually make a decent fic. But those are incredibly rare! And now, in a show of shameless self-promotion, anyone who wants to read angsty but blissfully Sue-free fiction can find the link to my ff.net account on my BD profile.

[StarJewel]

Morgul Queen:
I'm not sure if I consider my own stuff "good". I try to stick to canon as much as possible, especially with how certian characters would act. As for the OC's, well, I try to make them normal as possible. And by normal I mean not like me (hair trigger temper, major quirks).

On another note...I was thinking of devising a Silmarillion Mary-Sue litmus test. I know there are several for Lord of the Rings, and its true that most of the stuff applies to both books, but I think there should be one just for Silmarillion based stories.

[Encaitare]

That sounds cool; I don't know how many Silmarillion MS's there are, but it would be interesting to see. I'm pondering writing a Mary-Sue for an unlikely character, ie: Gimli, just in mockery of all the pretty-boy romances. It could be interesting.

[Morgul Queen]

If you ever see any Silm 'Sues, tell me, I'm Senior Assassin in the Silm Department of the PPC. That goes for a litmus test too....you don't want Agent Darkling on your back.

[Encaitare]

Well rest assured; out of curiosity I went to fanfiction.net and searched all the Silm romances, and it seems that there are no Mary-Sues. There is an Celegorm/OC romance that came close but the author changed it so she's not blatant anymore. Hurrah!

[Morgul Queen]

Something for which I'm infinately grateful, but it does make it hard to PPC. Ah well...we are working on a story right now that I may post here.

[Elennar Starfire]

I've taken an old story I wrote, which was embarrasingly 'Sue-ish, and am making it a parody. Basically I've kept the main plot intact, but we now see other characters plotting behind the 'Sue's back...it should be amusing.

[Encaitare]

Heh... sounds promising!

If you dig MS-parodies, check these out:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1499521/1/

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1680337/1/

[StarJewel]

Here's another good Sue Parody that had me laughing my bum off for quite some time. Forgive me, I have a rather twisted sense of humor...

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1738269/1http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1738269/1/ (http://http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1738269/1/) /

Just curious...who was the author of the near-Sue?

[Isowen]

I really don't like fanfiction because it's just some person trying to imitate a kind of "fantasy world" and they don't get it right! It spoils it for those (myself being one of them) who like to escape into middle-earth and indulge in the tales and stories that go with it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a nice character or a fantasy type story but it has to be believeable and if it is taken too far it becomes fanfiction and the main character becomes a Mary-sue

[Sapphire_Flame]

Encaitare, those parodies were uber-lofty. Thanks for posting them!

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Encaitare]

In response to your comment, Isowen, you're right, people do get it wrong a lot and then I get mad. As a fanfiction writer, I make sure I do all my research beforehand, and if it's an alternate universe fic, it's clearly labeled as such. Still, I mostly I write canon anyway. Not all fics are Mary-Sue types, but you have to dig through all the lousy fics to find the good ones.

Saphy, glad you liked 'em! The Noble Platypus is just hysterical. If you want to read her monosyllabic version of LotR check out her LJ.

[StarJewel]

People getting stuff wrong is very annoying...but it can be a lot worse. I had one review (anon, of course) saying that Celegorm, not Maedhros, was the eldest son of Feanor. I think I just stared in utter shock at the screen for a few minutes, then started shrieking obscenities (which would ignite computers everywhere if I typed them here) at the screen. THen I calmed down and just deleted the offending "review".

Encaitare- thanks for the kind review. It's always cool finding other authors, especially ones who know what they are writing about. :D

[Isowen]

StarJewel, I just wanna say WOW! that is a great site and extremely fabulous stories :D

[Encaitare]

No prob, StarJewel! I look forward to reading the rest of the series! Hooray for great Silm writers!

Note to everyone: follow the URL on her sig and check out her fics... "Feanor's Children," especially.

[Lérië]

They sound disgusting. How hard would it be to kill one, I wonder?

[Aganzir]

So, there’s this girl. She’s tragically orphaned and richer than anyone on the planet. Every guy she meets falls in love with her, but in between torrid romances she rejects them all because she dedicated to what is Pure and Good. She has genius level intellect, Olympic-athelete level athletic ability and incredible good looks. She is consumed by terrible angst, but this only makes guys want her more. She has no superhuman abilities, yet she is more competent than her superhuman friends and defeats superhumans with ease. She has unshakably loyal friends and allies, despite the fact she treats them pretty badly. They fear and respect her, and defer to her orders. Everyone is obsessed with her, even her enemies are attracted to her. She can plan ahead for anything and she’s generally right with any conclusion she makes. People who defy her are inevitably wrong.

God, what a Mary Sue.

I just described Batman.

(Courtesy of adventuresofcomicbookgirl.tumblr.com (http://adventuresofcomicbookgirl.tumblr.com/post/13913540194/mary-sue-what-are-you-or-why-the-concept-of-sue-is)).

While I'm all in favour of well-written, round characters who have their faults, I'm a teeny bit tired of 'ideal' characters only being criticised if they're women.

[Nerwen]

Agan, I think this whole thread has been about fan-fiction Mary Sues- and a lot of the reason people complain about them is their habit of taking over from the actual characters, in a general "anything you can do, I can do better" way. They're more beautiful! More talented! They have bigger and better angst! They're the ones who really save the world!

When you start applying the same criteria to characters in original fiction... then, yes, it becomes problematic. Not that "canon Sues" don't exist, because of course they do, but the definition is often stretched so far that it becomes meaningless. Not only that, but some people definitely do seem to use a simple equation of "female protagonist = Mary Sue".

[Aganzir]

Yeah I got the impression, but I see no reason why serious literary criticism shouldn't be applied to fanfiction as well. ;) I rarely read it myself but I'm quite aware of the rise and fall of the concept of Mary Sue over the years, and it baffles me because although there's talk of Gary Stu also, he doesn't seem to get nearly the same amount of hate.

[Nerwen]

Yeah I got the impression, but I see no reason why serious literary criticism shouldn't be applied to fanfiction as well. ;) I rarely read it myself but I'm quite aware of the rise and fall of the concept of Mary Sue over the years, and it baffles me because although there's talk of Gary Stu also, he doesn't seem to get nearly the same amount of hate.
There are fewer male OCs in fan fiction, probably because most of the writers are female, so Gary Stu doesn't show up nearly as much. Also, I think he's generally considered to be a subset of Mary, if you see what I mean. In fact, some people refer to characters of either sex as "Mary Sue".

[Faramir Jones]

Would people here consider a lot of the above film to just be bad fanfiction, which happened to end up on the big screen because of PJ having power and money? :p

If so, what do people think of the character of Tauriel being something like a Mary-Sue? She (along with Legolas) slaughters a lot of orcs, and is involved in a love triangle... :rolleyes:

[Morthoron]

If so, what do people think of the character of Tauriel being something like a Mary-Sue? She (along with Legolas) slaughters a lot of orcs, and is involved in a love triangle... :rolleyes:

They (Legolas and Tauriel) are the Neo and Trinity of Middle-earth, complete with an incredible use of weaponry and defying gravity. After all, Agent Smith is already in Rivendell.

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

I read a LOT of fanfiction. *don't judge me* The most annoying thing is finding fics that have a lot of ooc-ness. I also HATE OC's. However, once in a while, I come across a fic that's well-written and stays in character. Best feeling in the world.

Also, thought on female OCs, there aren't very many females in LOTR (Well, not in comparison to the male characters, anyway). So, when you get the OC's that aren't just the writers putting themselves in the story, it may be as an attempt to balance the characters' genders. After all, the only three PROMINENT characters in LOTR are Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. All of whom are very good and complex characters, but the series still remains a sausagefest.

[Faramir Jones]

I read a LOT of fanfiction. *don't judge me* The most annoying thing is finding fics that have a lot of ooc-ness. I also HATE OC's. However, once in a while, I come across a fic that's well-written and stays in character. Best feeling in the world.

Also, thought on female OCs, there aren't very many females in LOTR (Well, not in comparison to the male characters, anyway). So, when you get the OC's that aren't just the writers putting themselves in the story, it may be as an attempt to balance the characters' genders. After all, the only three PROMINENT characters in LOTR are Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. All of whom are very good and complex characters, but the series still remains a sausagefest.

Surely that's how Tolkien wrote it in the first place.:( Would some of those who make such 'sausagefest' criticisms have a similar complaint about another work containing mostly female characters, feeling that there should be more male ones included as a balancing act? ;)

The best way to deal with this is to produce new works, such as Suzanne Collins' Hunger Games trilogy, with its heroine, Katniss Everdeen.

[Aganzir]

Would people here consider a lot of the above film to just be bad fanfiction, which happened to end up on the big screen because of PJ having power and money?
That view was prevalent with us when we left the cinema.

After all, the only three PROMINENT characters in LOTR are Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. All of whom are very good and complex characters, but the series still remains a sausagefest.
I'd say Goldberry is more prominent than Arwen, who is not the most complex character I've seen anyway.

Would some of those who make such 'sausagefest' criticisms have a similar complaint about another work containing mostly female characters, feeling that there should be more male ones included as a balancing act?
No because it's about representation and there is a vast imbalance between the numbers of male and female characters/leads in literature and films (Beighley & Smith (http://griid.org/2013/02/12/normalizing-male-dominance-gender-representation-in-2012-films/), Flood (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/may/06/gender-imbalance-children-s-literature) etc). There is simply no need to bring more male characters into the business as they get the most attention anyway.