I don't believe this

[TealDude4]

I weas just searching on the net, and I found this site that says Harry Potter and LOTR are evil. (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/7895/bwocclt.html)

Now, I am a very religious person, and I think HP is wrong(though I don't hate people who read it), but LOTR evil?!?

What is your opinion of the webmaster's opinions, and what do you think makes him think that LOTR is evil?

Personally, I don't think he has researched or even read a chapter of HP or LOTR.

[The Only Real Estel]

HP & LOTR are quite different. While J.K. Rowling researched 'black magic' stuff to insert into her books, Tolkien simply wrote from his Christian faith. I don't think that you can consider LOTR evil, unless you have a major thing against wizards ( who are not the same as sorcerers )... smilies/rolleyes.gif smilies/cool.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

For goodness sake, isn't there enough evil actually occurring in the world, without reading it into perfectly harmless books? Why can't these people devote their energies into addressing the tangible wrongs that are happening here and now, rather than making wholly misguided attempts to brand anything that they don't agree with, or which doesn't conveniently fit into their own comfortable little belief system, as evil?

Child molesters are evil. Brutal dictators are evil. Serial killers are evil. JRRT and JKR are not evil.

Mind you, this loony is right in one rather twisted way. If you think that the HP books are encouraging people into the ways of Satan, then the logical extension of that argument is that JRRT's works are too. The problem is that his arguments aren't logical, or even remotely rational.

smilies/mad.gif smilies/mad.gif smilies/mad.gif

Edit:

HP & LOTR are quite different ... I don't think that you can consider LOTR evil, unless you have a major thing against wizards.

Harry Potter and his chums were wizards. Gandalf was a wizard. Both used spells.

From The Hobbit, Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire:

But, of course, Gandalf had made a special study of bewitchments with fire and lights (even the hobbit had never forgotten the magic fireworks at Old Took's midsummer-eve parties, as you remember).

[ May 30, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Children have been targeted to be brainwashed by the occult. So, now that we have read the article, what am I supposed to say? "Ah, thank you for this source of true enlightenment"? smilies/mad.gif There is no such thing as a good witch, a good wizard, or good spells. All occultism is an abomination to God!
This person seems a bit onesided to me... Parents do not care that Harry Potter is Satanic occultism. Er... I feel like this person is highly religious (smart, no? smilies/wink.gif), which is fine, but believes far too much that everybody should believe as he does... The most foolish argument I've heard is the claim that the writer of Lord of the Rings is a Christian therefore his occult books are OK to read. Let's answer that dumb argument right away! NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult. His demonic fruit in Lord of the Rings speaks very clearly that he is not one of God's people. Too much to say here. I'll just keep it down to two things. a. so if somebody is interested in magic, they're heretics? Hmm. b. this dude seems to be assuming that all people of any worth in the world are Christian. I don't feel too 'included' in here now... As you can see there is no room for debate. This is a comment that I feel will not be accepted by most people... debate is life, whether it is religious or not. I think, at least. If you have attended the movies and enjoyed the occult books and allowed your children to do the same, you are an enemy of God. Or if you or your children have read the satanic books and delight in the occult, spells, wizardry, and witchcraft, you are an enemy of God! Then know this: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! Wow, that's a bit over the edge, in my opinion. I am not a Christian, but would certainly not consider myself an "enemy of God", and the writer should remember that not all of us believe in Heaven and Hell... If you really love the Lord then clean out your house from all the evil things of the devil. Get together all the Harry Potter books, Lord of the Rings, all evil games (ouji boards etc), Satanic rock music. Then, once collected, destroy all this evil material. Extreme measures, no? Whoever said Ouijia or rock were evil, for that matter?

~Menelien

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[The Saucepan Man]

... and the writer should remember that not all of us believe in Heaven and Hell...

Impossible. He's been conditioned not to believe such "heretical" things. smilies/biggrin.gif

(I've calmed down about it now. smilies/wink.gif )

[Talon Stormcrow]

Wow these people are religious to the extreme! Im a christain myself and my mother and i both agree that harry potter is revolved around witchcraft. But lotr..well she doesnt like the idea of magic and wizards but i try to explaian that JRRT WAS a christain. The story has alot of christain ideas in it. And that Gandalf wasnt a wizard like in harry potter. He is an Istari..like an angelic being as i once heard them being referred.

Okay thats my 2 cents...please dont attack me! smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif

[Brinniel]

As I strongly disagree with everything the writer Alan Yusko has to say, I am going to attempt to put up a fair argument here:

There is no such thing as a good witch, a good wizard, or good spells.
-During the Middle Ages, witches were referred as local wise women who used herbs to treat illnesses, made amulets to ward off evil spirits, and practiced divination to locate lost property or identify criminals.
-Wizards were known to find lost objects or missing persons, detect criminals, cure illnesses, tell fortunes, and make charms or amulets to ward off natural or supernatural harm.
-It seems to me that neither types of these "white" witches or wizards were evil.
-Also, much of the stories of magic, spells, witchcraft, etc. originated from myths from ancient Greece, before the rise of Christianity.

(Source: The Sorcerer's Companion by Allan Zola Kronzek and Elizabeth Kronzek)
Of course the Bible is forbidden in schools but the wizard, Harry Potter is acceptable.
This is due to the variety of religions that exist in different countries, especially the United States. Harry Potter displays no specific religion (aside from Christmas), so people of all religions may enjoy the books. Though, there are some schools that ban HP and LOTR.
The most foolish argument I've heard is the claim that the writer of Lord of the Rings is a Christian therefore his occult books are OK to read. Let's answer that dumb argument right away! NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult. His demonic fruit in Lord of the Rings speaks very clearly that he is not one of God's people.
Hearing this makes me rather angry. Tolkien did use wizardry and magic in his books, but not as much as this person seems to think. Tolkien wrote about good overcoming evil. And I don't see what is wrong with that since that is pretty much what the Bible is about. But Tolkien is definitely a Christian and the writer has no right to say that he is not.
By choosing to accept the occult a person is choosing to be enemies with God and friends with the devil!
Oooh, how I hate hasty generalization. I wonder where this person got the idea that we are all friends with the devil, especially when the books are about good overcoming evil. I think LOTR has brought some people closer to God rather than closer to Satan. Sauron is depicted as evil for a reason.
Ten short years ago the rejection of the occult was a non-issue. Christians knew that the occult was evil.
I'm sure there were plenty of Christians who enjoyed reading LOTR and other fantasy novels before 1993. Enough said.
This great move toward acceptance of the occult is part of the last days falling away or the great apostasy. People are growing distant to God and the Bible. Many are losing their discernment about the evils and dangers of the occult. Before the antichrist rises to power there will be a great falling away and rejection of God and the Bible. Many people will reach the stage of utter rejection of the things of God while they accept all the devil offers.

This is quite untrue. More people attend church than those who worship the devil. Yes, evil does happen, but there is always more than one to stop it from happening again. Despite what the news shows, I believe that more good occurs in the world than bad. Majority of people are too close to God to let the antchrist rise to power. And majority does rule.
Also, statistics have shown that teens have grown stronger in their Christian faith these last few years. Christian rock has grown popular. Church and prayer groups have been started in some schools. And most of all, teens have grown more active in their churches.
If you have attended the movies and enjoyed the occult books and allowed your children to do the same, you are an enemy of God. Or if you or your children have read the satanic books and delight in the occult, spells, wizardry, and witchcraft, you are an enemy of God! Then know this: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! Stop kidding yourself! You love committing a sin that God considers an abomination. Therefore you do not belong to God and have aligned yourself with Satan.
Though I am not very religious, I am a Christian and a believer in God. No one has the right to tell anyone that they are not a Christian because of what they watch or read. This is an insult to my beliefs. I believe God accepts all those who believe and have faith in Him and ask for forgiveness when they have sinned. And I am sure He does not care what we read, watch, or play, just as long as we ourselves do not act against Him or the Ten Commandments.

Honestly, I think the writer of this article is just paranoid. Like most of those who believe that HP and LOTR are work of the devil, I doubt he has even picked up either of these books in his life. He makes assumptions from reviews and pictures he has seen from the movies. I pity people like this writer, because they do not know what they are missing out on. smilies/frown.gif

[Talon Stormcrow]

Ah Brinniel I fully agree with you on this matter.

Though I am not very religious, I am a Christian and a believer in God. No one has the right to tell anyone that they are not a Christian because of what they watch or read. This is an insult to my beliefs. I believe God accepts all those who believe and have faith in Him and ask for forgiveness when they have sinned.

I defiantely agree and no one had the right to say someone is a Christian or not. That is their own decision.

[Niluial]

I am a Christian myself and I love the Lord of the rings and to be honest I enjoyed Harry Potter to smilies/rolleyes.gif. Many other Christians look at me strangely when I say I enjoyed Harry Potter but there are many Christians in my church that are LotR fans. Harry Potter, is magical and is witchcraft but it is just child’s play. Everyone has there own view on Harry Potter, some say it is evil some say it was excellent and some say it was a lovely fun movie (like I, but I am not crazy about it, I enjoyed it I’ll go see the next one but it’s not like my favourite like LotR is of course smilies/wink.gif). I understand where some people get the concept that Harry Potter is evil, but LotR? LotR is set in a magical land that does not exist it takes you to a different world. There is nothing wrong with Elf’s and Hobbits, they are all fantasy creatures, unlike Harry Potter witchcraft does exist! So where do they get the concept that LotR is evil? In the blackriders? I doubt it! But my mom has always said, if you look hard enough one shall always find evil in everything…. You can decide for yourself whether that is true or not? In my opinion us humans still do not really know what is good and what is evil and we then point fingers and say “Oh that is evil” and we don’t really understand what evil and good truly are. Ok so we know a little like lying is evil… no wait it is not evil it is wrong!!!

Are good and evil absolute or are they relative to the conditions associated with time and place? Do conditions surrounding a particular situation make an act good and at another time make it evil? Does an act appear to be good in the overall perspective, but when torn away from its environment appear to be evil?

If good and evil are independent, do they have the same creator? Or is God the Creator of good alone? If so, who has created evil?

If the knowledge of good and evil is instinctive, there should be uniformity of thought between various nations, religions and groups; but there are vast differences among them in almost every aspect. What are the reasons?

Is the concept of good and evil imbued in the nature of man or has he been given divine guidance? If not, how are good and evil identified? If reason is the only guide, are there some criteria to determine what is good and what is evil?

[Tarien Ithil]

YES!! I agree with you Nil! smilies/smile.gif

To answer your question,


who has created evil?

I think the Devil smilies/evil.gif created evil and he deso evil through people.

I don't agree with some thinbgs in HP, but it's OK if people read it, because it's their choice. If it doesn't appeal, don't read it.
If you find it appeals to you, go on, read it!! smilies/smile.gif

But i still can't believe some people think LOTR is evil.....

[Faye Took]

There is no way that LotR could be evil. Tolkien had a very strong belief in Christianity so there is no possible way that LotR is evil. Harry Potter is not black magic.

[eleanor_niphredil]

Its going to kill me to say this, but harry Potter is not evil. As much as i hate it, I havent got the heart to say that it is truley evil, or even bad. However, I have not read these books, so I cannot have much of an argument for them.

I can see where he is coming from with lord of the rings, though. If you went searching for it, many things in LOTR hint at what he is calling witchcraft. Galadriels scrying pool is often thought of as pagan, and in his opinion, evil. Alot of LOTR is structured around the five elements of fire, water, earth, air and spirit. It is just as easy to see it as a pagan work as a christian work. However, the writer of this artical does not go into any of this, showing that he has no knowlage of the occult anyway.It also suggests that he has never read LORT or Harry potter.
Another pagan thing in LOTR is the personification of these elements. It clearly says that hobbits refer to the sun as she. When Tolkien says that the woods are listening, he is not using a metephore. But this does not make it evil.That would make evryone who absent mindedly said sorry to the chair the bumped into evil, everyone that refered to his/her car as a she.

I would just like to know, how is it that everything has to be pagan or chriastian. Does it not occure to this person that perhaps Tolkien and JK Rowling did not astop to wonder if their writing was supporting a certain religion? Perhaps they just wrote it. You could go back on any writing and find something christian and something pagan. He only sees it in these two books because they are in the public eye at the moment.

Knowing me, i just repeated what everyone esle said. Well, great minds think like if I did.

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: eleanor_niphredil ]

[peonydeepdelver]

LOTR is not evil. If you think about it, the Istari are more like the angels they were sent to Middle-Earth to be rather than wizards, which only Men and Hobbits call them. And Harry Potter? Don't even go there with me. The books were fine, but the movies were soooooo bad...

[Meela]

Harry Potter? Evil? I refuse to believe that.

Lotr? Evil? Its quite dark, yes, but not evil. Fantasy novels have dark moments. Its almost essential in a good heroic story.

[*Varda*]

Well, that made me laugh out loud. It was very difficult to have even the slightest respect for the writer's opinion - since for me, it mostly seemed to revolve around 'Harry Potter and LOTR are occultic' yet he never gave the slightest bit of evidence from either to back this up. I hate arguments with no evidence smilies/mad.gif If you must argue, do it properly.

In any case, I simply CAN'T understand how LotR can be viewed as evil. Not because good wins over evil - but did the writer of that article pay the slightest attention to how good won over evil? It wasn't through occultic practises, or spells (even if Gandalf helped them along occasionally) it was through will power and strength of heart, and all those other qualities that are good. Not by the occult.

I strongly advise Alan Yusko to firstly, read the books that he is condemning so strongly (of course, he never will) and then, hopefully having learned something, attempt to back up his argument with evidence.

Oh, and there is ALWAYS room for debate. It annoyed me when he said that...it just seems so close-minded. There is no clear right or wrong.

[Katherine712]

As a huge fan of both HP and LOTR I can safe with absolutely no doubt that neither are evil. Both books are very similar in many common themes (such as friendship and loyalty even in diffcult times, and following what is the good and right thing to do eben though it may be diffcult). How can two bokks that support ideas such as good wins over evil, kindness, loyalty, friendship be considered evil.
From a literary point of view, both books follow a specific hero archetype where an unassuming hero must somehow save the world at a sacrifice to themselves. This is actually a common theme in literture, especially when magic is used as a background.
I do not wish to get into a debate, and yes this is not a HP board, but I must respond tho those on this site who say that HP is evil, about witchcraft, etc. It is not about evil or witchcraft. As LOTR fans, you might notice that in all of literature, not just these two books, magic is used as SYMBOL!, not meant to be taken literally. Neither the magic of Gandalf of the magic in LOTR encourages any belief in evil, of satanism what so ever. If you believe that crap ( as in the false information, not an insult to the belief, because she has stated that she does not believe in magic) that JKR used black magic in her books, worships the devil, etc then you are very sadly mistaken. That is propaganda from people like the guy who wrote that article. Just like LOTR, hp has roots in lore and mythology. Magic is a backdrop, not the focus. I just couldn't stand for you to be continuly misinformed and perhaps help fuel the fire that HP is evil when it is clearly not. (If it matters at all, I am a devout christian)
BOTH authors encourage good values and morals that everyone can follow, no matter what your religion. Magic is a symbol in these books!

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: Katherine712 ]

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: Katherine712 ]

[Aule]

I had written quite a long and ranting tirade against this witless fundamentalist fool, but then i realised whats the point. He has convinced himself that we are wrong and he is right. His "arguments" are a flawless if you disagree you are in league with the devil etc...
What can you say to a man like this, nothing at all, so frankly i would prefer to say nothing at all about his pathetic arguments.

I despise these biggoted Fundamentalist fools that spout lies. All they do is tell people how evil they are without first looking at what they do themselves. They kill abortion doctors because they think only God has the right to take away a life, they they hypocriticaly go and kill the abortion doctor. I hate them and their self rightous BS

Sorry about that i had intended to just write a little bit, but i got so angry that i sorta went out on a rant again.
Oh yeah i know a lot of people have strong views on abortion, i'm not condeming you if you are for or against it, just the hypocrites that kill in the name of God

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

If you believe that crap that JKR used black magic in her books, worships the devil, etc then you are very sadly mistaken. Well, I agree, but I don't think you should put it like that. Lots of people have that in their beliefs, so I don't think that's the nicest way to say it.
As for the guy who wrote it- I think he must have been very strictly educated... smilies/eek.gif

~Menelien

[LePetitChoux]

I actually understand that person's point of view. Firstly, he has probably been brought up a strict Christian, and so is going to try and promote righteousness. He has been brought up to believe that anything to do with magic is evil. I can understand that he would stick to this belief- like if you'd been brought up to love and respect your parents, and lots of people started telling you bad things about them, you'd naturally
a)not believe it
b)try and change their minds
However (this is a very big "however"), I do not like the fact that he seems to have given himself the right to tell others whether God accepts them or not, and whether they are serving Him as they should do ("If you have attended the movies and enjoyed the occult books and allowed your children to do the same, you are an enemy of God. Or if you or your children have read the satanic books and delight in the occult, spells, wizardry, and witchcraft, you are an enemy of God! Then know this: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! ")-that to me is a form of blasphemy, to give yourself status high enough to be able to say what God finds good/bad. I myself am at the moment becoming more Christian (reading the Bible, praying, and starting to generally find out about Him) and I do not feel that this man has any right to tell me, without any evidence, substantial or not, that because I have read the LotR and HP books and liked them (even if this was before I found God) I am automaticaly and irreversibly hellbound.
The sad thing is that he will never read the books because this, from his point of view, will make him a "God-hater"-not because he'll miss out on great works of Literature, but that he'll continue blackmouthing them unsupportedly and unjustly in my view until he dies.
Also, I love the way he insults Tolkien:
The most foolish argument I've heard is the claim that the writer of Lord of the Rings is a Christian therefore his occult books are OK to read. Let's answer that dumb argument right away! NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult. His demonic fruit in Lord of the Rings speaks very clearly that he is not one of God's people. The authors of occult entertainment such as Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are nothing more that Satanic pied pipers leading people to the devil. They are leading people away from God and the Bible and straight into the occultic arms of Satan. Why would a professing Christian even attempt to justify the occult. The only reason I can think of is these people never were saved in the first place!

Next thing you know, he'll start selling Indulgences...or not, because that's a fake way into heaven. I think I'll stop now. smilies/smile.gif

P.S. I think this thread is great, but I also think that if the angry smilies and theological aspects of it get too much, it will be closed down and fall into darkness.

[Annalaliath]

If you have attended the movies and enjoyed the occult books and allowed your children to do the same, you are an enemy of God. Or if you or your children have read the satanic books and delight in the occult, spells, wizardry, and witchcraft, you are an enemy of God! Then know this: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! Stop kidding yourself! You love committing a sin that God considers an abomination. Therefore you do not belong to God and have aligned yourself with Satan.

Go ahead and laugh and mock when warned and corrected. You are a God rejecting, unteacheable, hellbound sinner. It doesn't matter if you attend some kind of a church. You are lost and perishing. Just one heartbeat from hell would be a good description of your life right now! Don't be self-deceived and think that you can eat from the occultic table of the devil and profess to be a Christian at the same time. Here is what the Bible says



This is legalism in it finest hour. Also this is what gives Christians a bad name. So many of these people believe that if you so much as look at the book you are no longer a Christian. So much of your salvation rests on works and other STUPID cercumsatial stuff that if they looked at themselves in the mirror some old Pharisee would be looking right back at him.


And many of them are small legalistic church schools that are so narrow minded that the very mention of a wizard denotes witchcraft. I am saying this cause i just met this guy in my CS 150 class that goes to one of these small legalistic churches (I am Baptist by the way and I am not as bad as this) He says that just because there are "wizards" in the LOTR that he won't read it because he stays away from that. I know that the books were written from the views of Hobbits and I expressed this. I also expressed the fact that the wizards were Istari and not human and therefor had different powers than were given to the children of Iluvitar. I also brought in a book that explained all of this better than I could.( another one that my Baptist, missionaries widow, grandmother wants to steal from me. Mussssst have itsss my presssioussss!) But like I said its these small legalistic church schools that ban good books like this, or just the legalistic churches. My mother, a teacher in the public school system and Baptist, is showing her class the old animated movies for the end of the year. She was also obsessed with them when she was around my age and all that stuff, and she genuinely likes all of this stuff. But still I think that a head honcho should read the books and books about the books before making a horrendous decision like that of those small fascist torture chambers.(by-the-way, I hate legalists. I mean they bother me. They tend to act like the Pharisees and Sagacious)

And this is a reply that I posted on another thread here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=002282&p=2)

] Many are justifying the occult and their enjoyment of it. People who claim to be Christian and who ought to know better are involving themselves with the occult. They are enjoying Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings. Many who are enjoying the occult and are rationalizing reasons to justify their acceptance of occult entertainment.

Here is an example of blind justification of evil: The most foolish argument I've heard is the claim that the writer of Lord of the Rings is a Christian therefore his occult books are OK to read. Let's answer that dumb argument right away! NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult. His demonic fruit in Lord of the Rings speaks very clearly that he is not one of God's people. The authors of occult entertainment such as Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are nothing more that Satanic pied pipers leading people to the devil. They are leading people away from God and the Bible and straight into the occultic arms of Satan. Why would a professing Christian even attempt to justify the occult. The only reason I can think of is these people never were saved in the first place!


Well what happened to really looking into people. He would probably love CS Lewis.

But this is what I have read concerning Tolkien and magic.

Far too many people try to compare J.R.R. Tolkien and J.K. Rowling, just because both of them tell stories about imaginary worlds inhabited by wizards. Not much about their stories is similar. Harry Potter lives in a world full of magic : spells, wands, potions, and flying broomsticks. In Tolkien's world, the wizards (and others) of Middle-Earth preform very little magic. In fact, Tolkien denies that magic is important in his world. He made a point of saying that he uses the word "wizard" to mean something "utterly distinct from Sorcerer or Magician" ( The letters of J.R.R. Tolkien edited by H. Carpenter with C. Tolkien, 159).

...In a letter written after LOTR was published, Tolkien worries that he is "too casual" about referring to magic in the book, and especially about terming it "magic" at all....

One problem is that LOTR is told from the point of view of hobbits. As Tolkien says in the prologue, "Hobbits have never, in fact, studied magic of any kind" ( The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien, I). They don't know much about Elves or humans, either. So what appears as magic to them -- such as Aragorn's ability to heal-- might be superior knowledge rather than actual enchantment. Even Galadriel fails to understand why the hobbits think Elves are magical, as she tells Sam when showing him her Mirror.

Also some characters, like Gandalf and Saruman, who appear to use magical spells, were actually created as supernatural beings by Iluvitar, the God in Tolkien's world. Their God-given gifts are something quite different from magic.

These explanations don't cover every case, because Tolkien developed the philosophy behind Middle-Earth over time, not as part of a plan. It's not fair to expect him too be perfect. However, you can generally assume Tolkien wanted to limit the magic in Middle-Earth. He didn't want characters to build towers with the wave of a magic wand, or to fly to Mount Doom by sprinkling fairy dust. He wanted life to be hard. He wanted the Fellowship's mission to destroy the One Ring to be tough and dangerous. That's what makes it worth while.
( The Magical Worlds of the Lord of the Rings by David Colbert, 2002)

I think that sums up a lot. The other thing that I want to point out is that this person who wrote this, is not being kind.

Donot speak evil things against each other, my dear bothers and sisters. If you criticize each other and condemn each other, then you are criticizing and condemning God's law. But you are not a judge to decide whether the law is right or wrong. Your job is to obey it. God alone, who made the law, can rightly judge among us. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to condemn your neighbor. James 5:11-12

And again:
I know that i should not judge, i am trying to persuade a few people. But that is just what i personally think. i have gone to one of those tiny schools with a legalist fro the principal. frankly i am terrified of enclosed spaces and that was about five or six years ago! What i was trying to say was exactly what my grandmother said about this topic when i brought it up to her.

These are my thoughts on the issue at hand and if you want to PM me feel free. I just sent them a copy of this post; with a few changes of course.


Edit. another paper of stuidity. (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/7895/occbook.html) And oha yes:

C.S. LEWIS AND HIS OCCULTISM

Lewis has also written some occultic stories that many have read. Again there is no such thing as using the occult for good. It is all evil and should be rejected by those who love and belong to God.

and

THIS IS A FACT - HELLBOUND LOST SINNER!

If you have attended the occultic movies, or allowed your children to attend. Or if you or your children have read the above satanic books. Then know this: YOU NEED TO REPENT AND REJECT YOUR OCCULTIC INVOLVMENT. You have committed an abomination to God by partaking of Satan's occultism and wizardry.

After repenting in prayer you need to purge out your homes of the satanic books and movies. Get rid of that Satanic junk. Destroy it and throw it out lest it become a curse unto you!

For those of you who refuse to repent I will make the following statement: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! How can you be? How can you love and partake of Satan's abomination without any concern or care of obedience? This cannot be done! You either belong to God or the devil. if you want to justify and excuse your occult entertainment, then go ahead Mr. or Mrs. non-Christian! You are just a lost hellbound professing tare and you love and accept the things of the devil.

You are a God rejecting, hellbound sinner. It is as simple as that. It doesn't matter if you attend some kind of a church. You are lost and perishing. Just one heartbeat from hell would be a good description of your life right now! Don't be deceived and think that you can eat from the occultic table of the devil and still be a Christian. Here is what the Bible says:

1 Cor 10
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

BLIND AND LOST

Of course people who love the things of the devil are lost and blind. They may even attend some kind of a church and even dare to call themselves a Christian! Some would even get angry reading this tract because it clearly states they are false Christian tares. However, people who love the occult are blinded by the devil. Here is what the Bible says:

2 Cor 4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

...Satan's apostates will defend Satan's work and occultism. You will see Satan's tares defend occultism and witchcraft found in Potter, Lord of the Rings, and CS Lewis' stories. This type of evil will be popularized by the tares. Potter, Lord of the Rings, snd CS Lewis' occult stories will be proclaimed as good Christian reading material and people will be encouraged to read. Those without any care of discernment will go with the popular flow and partake of the devils occultism. The lost tares will gladly partake and defend these evil things of the devil.

For those who belong to God, they will know these warnings in this tract are true. If some repentance and housecleaning is required, then it will be done. It is possible for a saved person to be duped. However, saved people respond to sound Biblical doctrine. God's people also have a desire to please and serve the Lord Jesus. When they learn of a particular sin or abomination, they will turn from it. The tares on the other hand, will love and enjoy the devil's occultic dainties. Those who love snd belong to God will obey and do what is right. The tares will just continue being tares!

Sound familier?

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

[Talon Stormcrow]

Oh i dont think harry potter is EVIL. I just dont think its for me and i dont like some of the ideas of the story. And CERTAINLY the people who read it arent evil! What you read doesnt really decide what kind of person you are and some radicalists who say that are wrong in my opinion.

Okay i just didnt want you guys to think i hated Hp and its readers hehe smilies/smile.gif

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic Suggesting Roman Catholics are not Christans? Not one myself, just noticed that...

~Menelien

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[Rumil]

Hahahahahahaha, that was the funniest website I've seen in ages, surely it has to be a windup? I can't believe anyone with the basic intelligence to find the 'on' switch of a computer would post this sort of lunatic rant seriously. Almost as good as one I found a few years ago denouncing 'Star Trek' as 'Satan Trek' and 'My Little Pony' as 'The Horse of the Devil'.

[Meela]

'My Little Pony' as 'The Horse of the Devil'.

I grew up with My Little Pony... So I'm the spawn of Satan now? smilies/evil.gif

[Bekah]

I feel very angry at the moment, so when I calm down I'll edit this post and say something.

~ Elentari II

[Lossentilien]

Why is everyone so mad? I think it's funny. This guy claims that it's all evil, but to know that, he would/should have read the books, thus going against everything he's preaching.

Did anyone look over the site? Read the part about rock music. It's absolutly hilarious! Do you think it evre occured to him that without Christianity, Satan wouldn't exist? We wouldn't know about it, and therefor the rock musicians wouldn't have anything 'evil' to sing about. And like anyone's going to read this unsubstanciated nonsence and believe it, take his advice and throw out all LOTR/Harry Potter/rock music.
I'm not against him being religious, just being a total philistine. I don't mean to offend anyone, but if you look back at the history of Christianity, the church did a world of damage that I can't really see these things doing.

[Tinuviel the Nightingale]

I am laughing. I see some points in the arguments, but mostly I think that this is extremist. His views are too one-sided to appeal to many people. And I have nothing against Christians at all, I am one myself.

Did anyone else notice his obsessive use of "occult"?

[the guy who be short]

Well, that one-sided rant has completely tured me. I have now burnt my LOTR and HP books!
Honestly, if he wanted to persuade people over to his side, he shouldve used a fair argument rather than a rant. He's just scaring peole away from God, the exact opposite of what he's trying to do. The guy needs to go back to English class.
It also seems to me that he is saying that Christians are superior to all others, only they can be saved and go to heaven, blah blah. Not only is this racist, I despise elitism. Being a Hindu, I believe all people are equal, all can be saved, nobody is doomed just because theyre not of a particular religion.
This person has, in my opinion, been brainwashed himself; probably by an extremist Christian group. Poor guy, does'nt know what he's rambling.
A question. If God created humans, why would he want us to be like slaves? Wouldnt he prefer that we, created in His image, were also creative in our lives? Wouldnt he prefer us to be absolutely free, and write fantasy so as to be creative?
Ah well, if Heaven and Hell exist, we know where this guys going. Racism, Thinking hes better than everybodyy else, Scaring people away from God, and of course making people start fires! smilies/wink.gif

[Annalaliath]

God is the God of love. He really is. If you look at the human race it is amazing He hasn't killed us all yet! He gave us free will, to do whatever we want( even to embrace evil) because he loved us. f he hadn't done so and made us robots ( like how the Dwarves would have been if Iluvitar hadn't adopted them) God would not be called the God of love and mercy. I think that the reason we die is because the older ya get the more evil has entered your heart(Hence the Hurons, and the reason why God gave us a flood. Among other things). I think that this guy has been corrupted from what could have been a beautiful relationship with God and Christ by the doctrine of a legalist church. This web site is a site put up by an organization not just one person; at least that is what I think. There has always been a problem with strickt doctrine. Man made doctrine is a fars and yes there is a lot of it around. These people who follow this kind of doctrine think a lot of things:

First and most predominate you can't be saved unless you believe in the 7 twenty four hour days.( looking at the Silmiriloin I don't think that even Tolkien believed this. Personally I think God took his time. After all he was creating a work of quality)

Second, you have to be baptized ( was the thief on the cross baptized). Or it must be in a certain way,(does it matter)sprinkling or emersion. Personally I have been baptized twice once in my back yard in a stalk tank.( ooooo I was not baptized in the church building itself what a sin.)

Third if it mentions Wizard it is evil( well they should do research)

and so on....

like you are sinning if you drink.(well Jesus drank wine, not grape juice. I have had people tell me that Jesus drank grape juice. They did not have a way to preserve grape juice other than to let it ferment back then. He was not a like Samson.)

The list goes on. I am a Baptist and believe me even in my church there is a lot of stupid things that goes on in that church as well. My grandmother( who is a missionary wife) love the Lord of the Rings. She thinks that it is these small legalistic churches that believe like the puritans.

This person, who wrote this one-sided paper, needs to sit down read his Bible, and research what he is writing about. (Maybe I should do that too) I did send him, or they an email with that other post( I have said this before) so maybe we can hear back from the people.

And here I go again editing things. This is another point of]doctrinal contention (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/7895/aakjv.html) in the church

Also here are some scriptures to look up. I don’t feel like typing them all out:

1 Sam. 25:20-35

Gen. 34:16-20

Luke 7:38-50

Acts 28 :22

Romans 4:1-5

Deut. 9:4-6

Is. 57:12, 64:6, 65:5

Luke 11:42, 18:11-12, 11:39

Here is a defintion of magic from Nelson's Quick Reference Topical Bible Index. Magic, magiian-- the art of doing superhuman things by "supernatural" means.

So I wonder does this apply to the Istari who are supernatural beings? You tell me. I think that this defends LOTR because I shows that it is superhuman things done by a human by the supernatural means. Not supernatural beings doing superhuman things and so forth.(confused yet?)

Melyn,

Annalaliath

(If I have wondered off topic let me know.)

I already did send them a link to this site.
[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

[Calavanya]

I totally agree with everything that Brinniel said. According to those who write such articles, we probably shouldn't drink herbal teas, cos they're wiches' potions. But I don't care about such people. I believe in the laws of nature, which are the laws of whoever or whatever created this universe, we call him God, I'm not exclusive as to who or what form God is, cos I wasn't made to know it. I respect other people's beliefs as long as they're not evil, ignorant and destructive. Magic, too, cannot be but handling, or so to speak, knowing teh use of the universal laws, which are not all known to us.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Maybe we should just send him a link to this thread smilies/wink.gif

I agree with guy who be short, in a way. I don't believe in Heaven and Hell, but I'm very slightly religious (Jewish) and I certainly don't believe that one person is better than another because of what they believe in. I think this dude is really discriminating against everybody who wasn’t poured out of the same mold as himself...

~Menelien

[Trippo The Hippo]

Well I agree with most things said here so I won't repeat everyone except on a few things.

The one thing I find extremely odd is that he quotes Bible verses all over the place, and yet basically in a sense he goes onto blaspheme by giving himself the powers of God. Here are a few examples.
1)He claims to know whether or not someone is a Christian. This is so crazy because, the Bible states over and over that God is the only judge on the mattter. So why does he feel like he has the right to judge anyone but himself?
2)He says that you are an enemy of God. I believe that God only has one enemy, and his name is Satan. The Bible states that God loves all humans more then we could fathom. I think this is true so why could make us his enemy. He hates SIN not PEOPLE!
3)I dont know Gods feelings on lotr, but if God truly does not like lotr then I believe he would still forgive me for doing it. Just as he forgave the murderer, and the thief.

So basically I feel that he has no right to condmemn others when he himself is sinning. Remember the story of the plank and the speck.

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Trippo The Hippo ]

[Nuinatariel]

NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult. His demonic fruit in Lord of the Rings speaks very clearly that he is not one of God's people.

Is not a Christian. Has this man even done enough research to know that Tolkien is dead?

YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN!

This sounds like my friend, who continues to tell me that LotR is a 'bad' book. Of course, she has never read any of Tolkien's works, or even seen the movie. I think her opinion is based solely upon the fact that LotR has magic in it.

Just one heartbeat from hell would be a good description of your life right now!

On the cruise I'm going on in June, we stop at a little town called Hell (really), I should send this guy a postcard. smilies/evil.gif

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Oh blah, blah, blah. The man is obviously one of the sort of people who have existed throughout time, who burn witches and/or books for being heretical, who killed Galileo and Plato (if I'm not confusing myself, of course smilies/rolleyes.gif ) etc. He can say what he wants but that is only ONE opinion. His problem is he wouldn't even accept that there are others.

I read a debate in a magazine in my church about whether HP was evil or not. The woman who argued he wasn't was so good that she (partly) swayed the "it's evil" man. The thing is, no-one could really say that it's SUPPORTING religion, it's just not mentioned at all. It's secular.

As for LOTR, it also does not involve religion (if we're talking about specifically LOTR as opposed to the Sil, UT etc.) Tolkien never says there is religion- he never says there isn't. Is this guy saying that EVERY story has to have people praying and saying they are Christian? I assume he hasn't read it (seeing as he says we are all damned!)- so he's basically giving a report based on hearsay and speculation, presumably from people he doesn't even know. He wouldn't exactly be friends with LOTR freaks!

A few non- LOTR related points why the guy is a nut:
He says that the fact that the lyrics of songs are repetitive is a sign of the devil.
He says famine is due to all these things: HP, LOTR, rock music. Why would God punish Africa for the West reading LOTR?
It might sound petty but he has a list of colours you can see as background to the report. I mean- why? What is the point? "OK, so you're damned to Hell. Would you like the news on a lilac or turquoise background?"
He appears to have an anti- Roman Catholic fixation. We all worship the same God buddy!


Well, I got out the article about HP and my book A Closer look at the Lord of the Rings, Mark Eddy Smith (it's an amazing book about the Christian values in LOTR- It made me cry buckets) to make a blistering attack on his points, but seriously we know that the man is talking rubbish. We know he has no right to judge us. We know that our points of view are equally important to his. And if the man knew we existed he wouldn't defame himself by listening to our arguments! So what's the point?

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

For example, I'm aware of professing Christian parents who let their children read the Lord of the Rings books and see the occultic movies. The wizardry, spellcasting, witchcraft, and blatant occultism does not matter to these parents. All this is considered harmless fun and fantasy for their children. Remember, I'm talking about professing Christians who attend a professing Christian church or school. So, professing Christians shouldn't read LotR cause it's sinful, and the rest of us can go clunk? Seriously, I don't know who brainwashed this dude, but whoever it was, they've got talent!

~Menelien

[VanimaEdhel]

Wow. Someone from the site e-mailed me a link to this before I found this thread. I guess there could be some that are so infatuated with the stories that it could be considered idolatry. I mean I think that it's wrong to condemn everyone that reads it and even believes in it, but, if you go by Christian doctrine, there are limits. Correct me if I am wrong, as I am one-hundred percent pagan and only know a bit about Christianity (only what's actually in the Old and New Testament, as I read it).

[Annalaliath]

It is wrong when it becomes your god. Like drinking is wrong when it becomes your god, or another owrd for this is when you become addicted. Also I think that it may not be right for some people to read Harry potter. If you can't take the perspective that this is not real and become obbsessed to the point of loosing sight of what is real then there is a problem. I will take my vampire obsession that I had and am still dealing with today. I was loosing sight of all things good and beutifull, blood, to me, sounded like a snack. And I scared myself, when things got a little too deep. So that is all I have to say on that.

I think LOTR is a wholesome thing and this guy is just judgeing people out of his own elf ritousness(yes that can even become an idol). This self ritousness is denounced in the Bible a lot. If you look up those scriptures that I posted earlyer than you will find that some of them deal with it. This person is bent, they are twisted. I think that this has a lot to do with the buring of books that the Nazis did. When people burned Betles records because of what John Lennon said(he was not saying that he was better than Christ, just that in his time he was more popular than Christ 2000 years ago). Elvis albums because of hip, and the list goes on. I had an a principal of mine tell me that Pink Floyd was posessed! We all have to think for ourselves and serch for truth. After all God is truth. And in the end we are all on one gient spaceship and He is the only one who knows where it is going.

[the guy who be short]

A non- LOTR related point why the guy is a nut:
It might sound petty but he has a list of colours you can see as background to the report. I mean- why? What is the point? "OK, so you're damned to Hell. Would you like the news on a lilac or turquoise background?"
Oh, you had me laughing so much there! But i think you may have a point. Why have the background colours? Hmmm... all I'm wondering is: Would it be justifiable if i called the men in white coats for this guy?

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I think so...
Maybe the colors thing was just how the website works...
I'm just really wondering whether he ever even read anything by JRRT? Just to look over the 'sinfulness'?

~Menelien

[Lindril Arvilya]

I am half-tempted to send this guy a link to the Barrow-Downs. Come on, just having him around to bash would be fun...

And all that about Tolkien. Poor hellbound Roman Catholic! *laughs* (Obviously all Christians are not safe...) I should show this site to my Catholic boyfriend...

Ooh, and apparently "ten short years ago", the occult wasn't an issue. How many people here have parents who read LotR?

GaladrieloftheOlden: I was about to put up the verses of the plank/speck when I saw you already mentioned it. Meh. Here 'tis, for those who aren't familiar with it. Out of this same man's Bible, ironically.

Matthew 7:1-5
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

I think he needs to realise what a "Man of God" truly is before he can tell others that they aren't it.

*sigh* It makes me weep to think about this. Just think- this guy may be someone's only Christian influence, and they'll either grow up just like him or rejecting Christianity completely. God, if you're reading this, please help him out.

P.S. I was a Wiccan for a few years (and have a few Satanist friends), and I have found nothing to relate to that in either Harry Potter or LotR.

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Lindril Arvilya ]

[merenwen]

i think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but saying that if you like lotr you are not a christian is a little harsh! if that's his opinion that's fine, but he shouldn't accuse like that.. smilies/rolleyes.gif

[peony_foxburr]

1. Referring to JRRT as a "hellbound Roman Catholic" unmasks this nut as what he is--a Bigot. Nothing says it better than "My particular brand of religion is the ONLY right one."
2. It's also supremely ironical for a "religious" person to condemn LOTR as being anti-Christian. One of the central concepts of Christianity is that the individual only achieves salvation through the grace of God--NOT simply his own efforts to be, or to do, "good." And this point of view is supported in LOTR, in that Frodo is NOT able to destroy the Ring, on his own--it takes the presence of Gollum to bring that about. Although Tolkien doesn't discuss Middle Earth theology in LOTR, it is explicated in The Silmarillion, for example.
3. Jesus of Nazareth would weep to know how many millions have been slaughtered in his name. And the first step, in my opinion, was someone saying "I'm the only one who knows God's will."

[Finwe]

I agree with you peony. I don't think Jesus meant for his followers to forcibly convert all those that they met. The religion that he preached was one of love, and it would really stretch facts to claim that the Crusades were fought out of love for the Saracens.
After looking at the amount of damage that religious wars have inflicted upon our world, I'm really considering just giving up all distinctions between religions. I mean, isn't a "religion" just another way to "reach" God? Our goal is ultimately the same, it's just that we all have different methods. Why do they have to classify people based on that?
Christianity itself is a very beautiful religion. I'm not even Christian (I'm Hindu) and I still believe so. I think that all religions are beautiful. It is just clerics' interpretations of them that either beautify or mar those religions.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

I just thought of something- I'm sorry if someone else has said it.
He concentrates too much on the authors. Lets say, for arguments sake, that both JRRT and JKR are in fact heretics. By their books they want to make people become witches and wizards. In fact they're probably zipping around right now on broomsticks cackling.

BUT people read their books and through messages that the two of them didn't mean to send out they decide to become better Christians. I mean, speaking only for myself, the examples given by characters make me want to be more self-sacrificing, braver, kinder, more noble. How is that wrong? I mean people have truly been touched by these books and gone on to become better people. Even if this is not what the authors meant why is it a problem?

I mentioned my book. This is one of the best phrases:
In ME I have found a training ground, a place where I can apprentice to those whose gifts of charity, wisdom, kindness, mercy, love and faithfulness far surpass my own...Reading about the virtues of fictional characters has little power to instill those virtues in us. Yet good books can give us a template, a way of understanding the world, so that when our time of testing comes, when the deed is set before us that we alone have been called to do, we will know the choices that we face.

Once again, how can that be wrong?

And someone mentioned about sending him a link to the BDs. There is no way he would profane himself by even considering it. He thinks that it's all wrong and he doesn't strike me as a person who is willing to admit the fact that he may be wrong. Or even that there are other possibilities. How very Christian of him, I must say.

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

[TealDude4]

This duy has no idea what he's talking about. He's saying that true Christians don't even read LOTR. I mean, nearly every Christian has read it. I bet even Ned Flanders has read LOTR, and he's as Christian as a person can get.

http://www.angelfire.com/linux/tealdude/ned.jpg

Note: I made the pic myself.

[The Saucepan Man]

I think that all religions are beautiful. It is just clerics' interpretations of them that either beautify or mar those religions.

Very well put, Finwe. smilies/smile.gif

One further thought. Why would anyone with an ounce of sanity want to believe in a God who is content condemn people to eternal damnation simply for writing, or indeed reading, a book like LotR (or Harry Potter, for that matter)?

[Ava]

The author sounds so extremeist with his far-fetched ideas and excessive use of the word "occult" that I'd almost be tempted to think it was supposed to be a satire, or something. It wouldn't be terribly hard to turn it into one - it almost mocks itself. But the fact that it's true...that's just sad, and a bit frightening.

But you know what I noticed...he never really specificed exactly why these books are representative of the "occult". He just says that they are, and if you read them you're the spawn of the devil, and so on and so forth. The only arguement why that I can see is that they both contain characters who are referred to as wizards and who practice what is referred to as magic. Is that it? Is that his only reasoning? Has he even read just a few pages, a chapter, of anything? If you're going to try to make an arguement, you're not going to get any where if you don't supply any kind of reasoning behind that argument.

I, for one, although I am sure they would be just as ridiculous as the rest of the writing, would like to know his exact reasons why these things are evil. Pick something from one of the books, from LotR maybe, some kind of specific event involving the "occult", and have him explain exactly why it is evil. I would like to know his reasons. Because, I'll bet, if we somehow were able to get him to do that, there wouldn't actually be any reasons there. Because it doesn't make sense.

[Bekah]

I've now calmed down, and I'm starting to laugh myself silly over your points. (Would you like the news that you're hellbound on this attractive sea-green or this gorgeous sky-blue?)

This guy has no argument. He cannot judge people without knowing what he's condemning them for. And he doesn't.

And God did say that no one has the right to judge anyone except himself.

But this guy won't listen. I'm going to pray for him, though.

One point, however:

After looking at the amount of damage that religious wars have inflicted upon our world, I'm really considering just giving up all distinctions between religions. I mean, isn't a "religion" just another way to "reach" God? Our goal is ultimately the same, it's just that we all have different methods. Why do they have to classify people based on that?


Yes. Only Christianity is the only "religion" where, instead of us being saved by good works, we are saved by grace. Instead of striving to reach God, God came to us and was incarnate in His son Jesus. We must turn from our sins, but God always loves us and will never punish us, and He always forgives us no matter what we do. It is my belief that Hell is merely existence without God, for he made all things good. Evil is merely perverted good.

You can see this not only in the Bible but in the Silmarillion.

Cheers,

~ Elentari II

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Sorry but I must go a bit off topic for a moment... Yes. Only Christianity is the only "religion" where, instead of us being saved by good works, we are saved by grace. *ahem* Judaism? (Partially, granted, but still.)

Alright, back. I'm just wondering- anywhere on that site, does it say anything about how that person was brought up? Because it must have been really strict if he ends up with views like that...

~Menelien

[ June 02, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[Bekah]

No....Judaism you get saved by the Ten Commandments. We couldn't keep them, so God sent Jesus.

~ Elentari II

[Neferchoirwen]

*points to qoute at the bottom of her message*

I honestly don't have the heart to click on the link and read it for myself...well, there's a heaping helping of stuff from the article, so why bother bother over what else he has to say? Besides, I know exzctly where he is coming from, which is where i broke through, thank God.

I'm a Christian...been saved since I was eight, which i personally believe was stemmed from a mystical thing that runs in the family--a God thing, obviously. A few years ago, I'd say that I agree with the article says. But one thing lead to another, and i realized, that as a lit major, walking around this world with a closed mind makes me a looser.

I was thought to be a "backslider" of sorts because i read LotR and HP. My Bible group (i;m the youngest among maried yuppies though i'm still in college) thinks HP is the opposite of Jesus Christ which i think is innocently ignorant.

*once again points at the N Gaiman quote"

Evil and Good both come from the single source. Satan has no capacity to create, and Hell is created solely for himself---it's a con to think that Satan rules hell. Evil is necessary. We can't live on earth and claim to taste all of life's flavors when all we did was to eat drink and be merry. We ought to live it abundantly---experiencing life in the greatest times to the brink of depression.

I pity people with these opinions. Thnk God they can change.

[Annalaliath]

I shoed this idiot thing to my grandmother. She said he had no argument and that I should go to church rather than read stuff like this guys stupidity. Not to mention to work on my spelling and that I had a few
good point but that does not matter anyway.

What this guy is saying is that you can loose your salvation by doing things. I believe that only a will act on the part of yourself can take a person out of the hands of god. By a person will fulliy deniing God can this happen. Nothing else can cause a person to loose his/her faith and sot being a Christian. But what does he know anyway?

[Shy Hobbit]

Ok, before I post my thoughts, how on earth is My Little Pony satanic? *laughs insanely*

*gasp* Oh my, I paid money to see LotR, oh no, then I bought it, and yes, I read the horrid books that spawned the cinimatic soul-eating disasters! smilies/eek.gif I'm going to hell, AHHHH!!

Alrighty, done playing. I'm not even going to touch the subject of HP, because although I disaprove of it, I've never read it or seen the movies, so I don't have proper grounds to judge it. I don't think it's nice to knock something that you have no knowledge of smilies/rolleyes.gif

I'm a Christian, and LotR has been one of the best things to come into my life. The storyline and characters are so inspiring. First of all, what exactly is so bad about these "damning" things? He used plenty of Scripture to back up his thoughts, but never used quotes or situations from the actual books. It saddened and angered me as I was at a Christian sporting event for kids and I overheard a parent sitting behind me say "Lord of the Rings is so much darker than Harry Potter. No kid is gonna get on a broomstick and try to fly". I had to resist the urge to turn around and say "I'm not going to put on a gold ring and try to dominate the world, either". I'm not comparing the two,I'm just stating how quick people are to bash something they don't know anything about. Yes, the story does have it's dark times indeed. But without the hard times, where is the heart and challenge of the tale? We as people all face dark times in our lives, and I can say that it only makes us stronger.

I know plenty of Christians who enjoy LotR and still have awesome relationships with God, as do I.

If you have attended the movies and enjoyed the occult books and allowed your children to do the same, you are an enemy of God. Or if you or your children have read the satanic books and delight in the occult, spells, wizardry, and witchcraft, you are an enemy of God! Then know this: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! Stop kidding yourself! You love committing a sin that God considers an abomination. Therefore you do not belong to God and have aligned yourself with Satan.



Ok, now supposing that is coming from a Christian, which would be my brother in Christ, truly hurts. Only God knows the heart, and there is a verse to back that up.

Speaking from a Christian point of view, let's say I want to try and win people over to my faith. Millions of people are fans, avid obsessed fans of both the works of Tolkien and JKR. The stories are dear to their heart. I don't think I'm gonna score many points by running up to them, smashing a Bible over their head and screaming "That's bad, you're going to hell!! Burn it, burn it!"

I let my 11 year old nephew watch the films, and so far he hasn't shown any signs of world domination or running around wearing black sheets. What does he do? He runs around the house with his toy Sting pretending to kill orcs. He makes fun of Saruman. He occasionaly dances around for laughs shouting "Smeagol's free!" Aragorn is his new role model.

All stories will have some element of evil, but overall good prevails.

"There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil"

That came from the so called occultic wizard, by the way smilies/tongue.gif

Why is it I can think of a good way to compose my words, but when I sit down to do it, I forget what I was going to say? Oh well. Some good points have already been made by all of you anyways, and I suspect the thread will be closed soon.

Heh, I'm sitting here listening to the soundtracks as I type and as I read that article. I suppose the author of that site would say I'm downright rebellious. I listen to Christian rock too smilies/rolleyes.gif Oh my, actually it was the people at the third day boards that got me interested in LotR. Oh my! Christian rock eventually led me to my love for Tolkien's work. Yes, it is indeed truly evil.

Just kidding, of course! smilies/wink.gif

[greyhavener]

Well said, Annalaliath. I appreciate your careful documentation and well-thought out responses.

I wonder if Mr. Lusko actually read either of the works he attacks. Had he read them he would probably have been able to use quotes from each of the works to actually support his points about evil's attack on society and how the occult fascinates and ultimately consumes. In both works good triumphs over evil and in both works the heroes struggle with the temptation to pursue and misuse evil power.

Many Christians rightly fear evil and seek to avoid the Enemy of our souls. Tolkien did, indeed, criticize Lewis for delving too deeply into the inner workings of evil. Like Lewis, I believe evil unexamined is even more dangerous. Fantasy writers like Tolkien, Lewis, L'Engle, and some others make tangible the struggle between the "principalities and powers" of good and evil and the role of the Christian in these struggles.

As a Christian I don't have to agree with every aspect of the theology presented to benefit spiritually from reading their works. Unlike Mr. Lusko, I also believe reasonable minds and saved souls can disagree within the realm of Christendom. As a mother I encourage my kids to read these works to help equip to recognize evil and choose good even when the price of that choice is great.

[ June 02, 2003: Message edited by: greyhavener ]

[Mood]

At first, I thought, okay this guy is intense, he was probably brought up stictly and he really believes in his argument, I respect that, even if I don't agree. Then I read this...
The most foolish argument I've heard is the claim that the writer of Lord of the Rings is a Christian therefore his occult books are OK to read. Let's answer that dumb argument right away! NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult. His demonic fruit in Lord of the Rings speaks very clearly that he is not one of God's people.

That's when my mind turned around and froze. This guy isn't respectable, he's just ignirant.
The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic
I happen to be a "hellbound Roman Catholic" and I am Christian. Catholics are a branch of christianity. I'm sorry but what an idiot and how dare he say that about God's children. Edit: He's not just ignirant, he's prejeduce.

Sorry, when I read that I blew my top. I'm sick of people chewing up other people because their not the same. I think he is an enemy of God if he goes around persecuting people like that. I hope he sees the light before it's too late.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

One thing I specifically looked for was a call for "sinners" like us to repent, and beg forgiveness. I notice he doesn't say anything of the sort. No, I guess once you're damned, you're damned for this guy's God.

I wonder if Mr. Lusko actually read either of the works he attacks.
Are you kidding? He says that simply reading it is a sign that you're going straight to Hell. I notice he doesn'r discriminate between someone reading it to find out if it's good or bad, or even someone who doesn't know that it's "occultic". Perhaps nowadays the world knows LOTR is about wizards, 10 years ago maybe not. Nope. This guys personal God would sure as Hell damn him if he read it to prove it's evil. No second chances.

[Idunn]

After having a short look at the text"opening our eyes" on the "evil" of LORD and Harry, I came to a conclusion, that when people really want, they can find in books literally everything. I happened to read two different articles: one from a Roman Catholics' weekly magazine, stating that LORD is a metaphorical story which praises God and instils in readers Christian values. It was well-argumented, thorough analysis of the book. For me very convincing, but utterly contradictory to "evil is around us" version. It even suggested, that LORD leads people to God. Of course, I strongly support this opinion, being Catholic myself, but I would encourage everyone to enjoy LORD, no matter which religion they belive - or not believe in. Tolkien showed us values, which can, and should be adopted by anyone.
O.K., I promised two texts. This second is extremely hilarious, maybe even more than the one we are discussing. It was written over thirty years ago, in a country where the Soviet regime ruled, soon after LORD first edition. I don't know how well you know the communistic reality, but, summerizing, Gandalf was compared to a eternally living Lenin. Certainly, this article was noting more but a propaganda, and probably the writer didn't believe a single word of it. Still, it was published in a biggest daily newspaper, seriously. So I'm not surprised that now someone claims that LORD is satanistic. People have always been distorting facts to convince others to their way of thinking. The saddest thing is that the so-called God-protector seems to believe in his opinions.
Again, it is clear that exaggeration in any matter is destructive.
I would like also point out that most of people accusing LORD of occultism, indicates wizardry as the main source of evil. Why they don't accuse authors of traditional fairy tales of being bad and brainwashing children? What about Ciderella's godmother? She was a sorceress - in addition, a good one...Maybe this tale should be forbidden...

And to Lyra Greenleaf
Don't worry about Galileo and Plato. Galileo denied believing in Copernicus theories in court, and, as a consequence, was set free. As for Plato, he run away. smilies/smile.gif

[ June 02, 2003: Message edited by: Idunn ]

[Bekah]

What this guy is saying is that you can loose your salvation by doing things. I believe that only a will act on the part of yourself can take a person out of the hands of god. By a person will fulliy deniing God can this happen. Nothing else can cause a person to loose his/her faith and sot being a Christian. But what does he know anyway?

The only way you can never be forgiven is if you believe you have sinned so much you can't be forgiven - and that is the greatest form of blasphemy. It is the greatest pride and the greatest evil. Lucifer fell from Heaven because of his pride; likewise Melkor.

I have a distinct feeling that this guy's God isn't the same as my one.

~ Elentari II

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: Bekah ]

[Annalaliath]

My grandmother is full of wisdom, if only I could get her on here. She thinks he is ignerant and that he probably never read the books! Bla bla bla. This has been said. People like him dserve to be ignored, because the movie and the books are about: courage, self-sacrifice, loyalty, friendship, hope, faith, love, and all the rest of the Christian virtues that can be thought of.... She likes to be narrow minded but there is a limit! This guy has tunnel vision. And bad tunnel vison at that.

I think that the only unforgivable sin is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That means rejecting any call from God and therefor calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

Other than that my Grannie( who I am on the phone with now) gave me a great verse, "I become all things to all men, that by all means I might win some." That included Christian rockers, Goths, and LOTR freaks. So on and so forth. Anyone who can find the verse is welcome to let me know where to find it.

[Shy Hobbit]

What about Ciderella's godmother? She was a sorceress - in addition, a good one...Maybe this tale should be forbidden...


Another excellent point smilies/cool.gif You don't often see people protesting against Cinderella, Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, Sleeping Beauty, etc nearly as often and as harshly as they do with LotR. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because I'm sure it does, but you just don't see it that much. Some people are just that way I suppose. My sisters husband doesn't want her to watch Sabrina, Bewitched, any of those shows, because they have "witchcraft". But he on the other hand is a Star Wars geek smilies/rolleyes.gif But I really do think there are bigger problems we need to deal with in the world besides attacking media.

[Ophelia]

Another interesting statement made by someone who thinks he is going to be amazed for "revealing the bad influence of this book" . O.K. So maybe he is right but l have never heard of anyone doing self harm or harming others because of what is written in the book.The worst thing that could happen is somebody being frightened by an civilian dressed up lie an elf or runing around with big and furry feat and a terrible wig.Is that evil? Huh?
Well I'm not goin' to insult someone (or atleast l do not wish to) but I have heard about ocultism spreadin' among children who want to be just like their favorite hero - Harry Potter.
If somebody has misunderstood the ideas discussed in LOTR or has started to wrongly read between words it's business of his own how he gets the main idea.But that again could be defined as the bad influence of youth .
Well it's up to you ,really, to judge are they evil or not.

[Neferchoirwen]

Welcome to the Downs Ophelia!

I like this one, which reflects my thoughts just as well:

I have a distinct feeling that the guy's God isn't the same as my one.


Loss, I can just imagine what they say about rock music.

Legalism at its finest hour indeed Annalaith, have yuo heard of the book "the real Pharisses"? (something that sounds like that) It's pretty interesting, ans it's a book that I'd like to recommend to the guy we're kinda talking about.

and I've got a question...speaking of the supernatural....what happens to people who believe in miracles? do they end up in hell?
...of course, I'm being sarcastic.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

The only way you can never be forgiven is if you believe you have sinned so much you can't be forgiven - and that is the greatest form of blasphemy. I'm not going to agree or disagree- I just wanted to say that you didn't add a "I think" or "in my opinion" so you are also putting out your opinion as the truth. I am, of course, not saying you're doing what this guy's doing- yours is just an opinion, his is something that it seems he thinks should be forced on everybody- but it's a bit ironic. No offence please, Bekah, I don't mean anything bad about you smilies/smile.gif

Another thing that I don't believe anybody mentioned which may be contributing to the idea of LotR and HP being evil is the way in which they are associated with each other. Very often, if somebody has an opinion about JRRT it will also drop onto JKR, and vice versa.

~Menelien

[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Thanks for the url. The whole thing was very very funny. That's the biggest bunch of absolute nonsense I had the *fortune* or reading. At least it made me laugh (vit. C smilies/wink.gif)
Whoever wrote this is openly insulting Roman Catholics. That was the only part where I actually got seriously angry.
smilies/biggrin.gif Gandalf's the devil!!! Let's all get out our crucifixes!!! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Faenaduial]

Oh blah, blah, blah. The man is obviously one of the sort of people who have existed throughout time, who burn witches and/or books for being heretical, who killed Galileo and Plato (if I'm not confusing myself, of course ) etc.

Thank you Lyra. It amazes me how many people who call themselves Christians insist on telling everyone else how evil they are. I find that evil deeds are usually the result of peoples intolerance of others.

Did this person even read LotR. Magic and spells did not defeat evil. The destruction of the ring was accomplished through the faith of Frodo and the love of Sam for his friend; not through a muttered incantation. Likewise there are many good values in the Harry Potter books. Friendship, love, trust all matter more in the outcome of the stories than how powerful a spell they cast.

I am a Christian, teach Sunday School, read the bible and send my daughter to a Christian school. I also encouraged her to read both LotR as well as HP and other fantasy writings.

This so called Christians time could be much better spent spreading God's word through love and kindness rather than judging other people.

[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: Faenaduial ]

[Galenfea of Mirkwood.]

Quite apart from anything else this person is not putting up a credible argument. In fact, for the last 1/2 hour I have been drafting an E-mail to reply to this, basically pointing out where he is wrong and giving him a spot of friendly advice. For example:

It is not at all obvious that you have read the Lord of the Rings, or seen the films, and thereby give an impression that, far from being somebody stating a genuine religios belief, you merely sound like smebody who doesn't know what they are talking about. A few quotations would have convinced fans such as myself that you had read these books. No, I'm being unfair. I daresay you read LotR frequently, but just couldn't find anything suitable. You know why that was? It's because there isn't anything. I've looked.

I decided against sending him anything of the sort. I'd only have been flamed by somebody like that. smilies/mad.gif

All I know is that I am a strong Christian. One who thinks that that man is a bigot who has no idea what he is talking about.

[Yavanna228]

I suppose that I shall add my opinion into the fray. smilies/smile.gif I will begin by saying that I myself am a Christian, so what I say is influenced by what I believe.
This man is quite, em, impassioned about his opinion of LotR and HP. I cannot believe that reading LotR or HP condemns one to Hell irrevocably, nor do I believe that one who enjoys the works of Tolkien or Harry Potter is, indeed, an enemy of God. The sin of the occult is against God, but the people themselves are loved by God. Why would God have sent His Son into the world if we were His enemies? He loved us, and therefore sent His Son so that our sins may be taken away.
Another thing, not all who read LotR or HP immediately convert to Wicca or go out and sacrifice people. It is all a matter of choice. Are you going to let yourself be so absorbed in these books that you twist their intentions and do those sorts of things? The choice is yours, and yours alone. The books themselves do not make you go into the occult.
Also, this man seems to insinuate that those who let their children enjoy the occult are condemned to hell. I believe that every one's sin is their own. Guilt cannot be transmitted.
At the moment, that is all I have to say. I did not have the time to methodically and thoroughly read through the treatise, I just wrote about what jumped out at me the most. If you disagree, that's quite alright with me. Everyone's opinion is their own, and it can be changed only by their choice. smilies/smile.gif
Peace

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I agree with Yavanna that what you do about what you read/see is what matters, not what "it" itself is. For example, if I read LotR and decided that now what I had to do would be to run away and learn spells and other things of the like, that would be my fault, not JRR Tolkien's. Also, I don't think this article is changing any lives. This guy isn't doing anything. It may inflame even more faith in those who believe the same things this guy does, but nothing else. It just gets us mad. I mean, I'm not going to suddenly repent of being Jewish/atheist and convert because of what I read here...

~Menelien

[elanor50]

Harry Potter is not lotr. In book one Harry Potter discovers that the great magic he has against the evil Lord Voldemort is his mothers love which she left within his very skin. In book two he discovers that although he has the ability of a evil wizard he made choices which saved everyone. It is not our abilities that make us who we are it is our choices. The next two books had similar lessons not movies yet. Faith and belief is personal. Harry Potter is a childrens book. Lord of the rings is a mythology as with Boromir evil is not in Lothlorien itself evil is only in those who bring it with them.

[Voralphion]

Others have mentioned it, but LOtR does not contain magic or things of the occult. The magic refered to is not magic but something that is not understood by the narrator. This is shown in the part where Galadriel is talking to Sam at her mirror. Even the Valar aren't magic, but just have abilities that lesser races do not.
Actually there is some mention of the occult and witchcraft in LOTR and that is that there are some sorcerers. These socerers are always evil, so to me it is Tolkien rejecting the occult and saying that it is evil.
I particularly found the part where he says Catholics are not Christians quite funny.

[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: Voralphion ]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Iarwain]

I failed to notice when belief in one truth rather than opening up the mind to contradicition and "tolerance" became biggotry. If I may, here is a segment from another discussion (PM) with a fellow downer... I fear that I offended him (it was, perhaps, a tad on the rude side) so please accept my appologies.

What you see as close mindedness is probably merely an affirmation of belief in a single thing, rather than openness to all possibilities. And, if you think about it, this is really one of the most rational things a person can do (there can, after all, be only one true solution the problem of existence). This is the idea of faith: that just as the solution to 2x+1=5 is always 4, there must be a God, merely because the entire universe suggests and proves His existence. I'm now finding it even more comical how extremely normal and expected your ideas are. Many of the people I know share this idea: that of complete tolerance of faith, lifestyle, and general manners of thinking. Yet how twisted it becomes when you try to find a purpose to life without killing oneself for lack of direction. If "all is true" then surely with the extraordinary amounts of contradictions between manners of thinking, all must be untrue. Confusion sets in. Hope is lost; life becomes mere self-gratification without any end other than death itself. We are lost...

Basically, the most fundamental proof of truth lies in one's self, that is, what one believes without normality or tolerance. Eliminate the human race and nature, and even your body; everything but your mind, and then tell me what you believe deep within. What does the depth of your existence tell you?

Your view on society is quite optimistic, and I think that its good of you to think in a positive manner, but alas, that is not my way of thinking. smilies/smile.gif Another warning about the groundbreaking work in discrimination: let us not, in our search for peace and equality (a worthy pursuit) loose sight of the need for morality among us. Also, we must be careful not to become irrationally accepting of others. You say that you think that society is becoming too moral. If I believed that society was anywhere near the point you described, I probably wouldn?t take the time to write this message. I see society becoming so incredibly amoral that it frightens me to think of what lies ahead. Though it is nothing new, it is at least with revived passion that many people are criticizing religion for claiming to have the only right answer. In my last message, I used a mathematical equation to represent the world, while x was God. I think you misunderstood the metaphor, so I?ll make a better one.

I am six-month-old child, sitting in a chair wearing clothes. It is up to me to decide how I became clothed. The first logical response would be that someone (i.e. my mother) clothed me. I am satisfied with this idea for a good while, but then I start to look around me to see what is happening. I analyze the fabric of my clothes, I take samples of the air around me, I even throw a rattle to the far end of the room to discover that a blanket, of the same fabric as my clothes, is lying there. Now I begin to like the idea of my own independence. How could someone have dressed me, I ask, when there are cloth fibers in the air, and an abundance of fabric - some of it similar to that which I am wearing - all around me. The fibers in the air, originating from various sources around me, must have been statically drawn to my body and formed these clothes that I am wearing. I, a clothed child, am a miracle of nature. Perhaps there are other clothed children out there somewhere too? And with that I deny the existence of a mother that clothed me, gave birth to me, and put me in my chair.

This child?s foolishness is quite reflective of how I view Darwinism. I dislike it because I see it as man?s means of separating himself from God. Through the idea of Evolution by Natural Selection, so many people are denying the existence of God and removing from their lives any feeling of obligation or responsibility for their actions. It?s a huge ego booster, and it largely contributes to the idea of religious equality that I so strongly refute. Another pointer: the way you view religion is that all ways are the way, and no way is the only way. Taking this into my metaphor, you would be the person that said that while several people of the same family clothed me, at the same time only one person clothed me, and still at the same time no one clothed me, and I was correct in my assumption that the clothes formed themselves. Now, when we look at an action, only one thing could have happened, lest we forsake logic for equality and say that one person and several people and no people could have done the same thing separately at the same time without the existence of the others. Or, you could also be the person that says that it doesn?t matter who is my parent that clothed me, as long as I am here and wearing my clothes, even if my mother demands that I wear my clothes in a certain way to avoid punishment.



Iarwain

P.S. Forgot to mention, but I believe this argument has already been done in full. InklingElf's "Tolkien v.v. Rowling (NOT on Equal Grounds)" It was a great thread, very much worth reading, but dead all the same.

[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Lush]

If this whole thing is a joke, which I hope it is, his use of hyperbole is extremely clumsy. C- on that one.

[Annalaliath]

If you read the rest of the rest or any of his other papers. They are ALL the same! They are ALL the same. They have the same structure and wording. All he did was change a few of the names and things.

[Neferchoirwen]

his use of hyperbole is extremely clumsy.

Now that's credible objectivity down the drain...

They are ALL the same

And because of that, he's doomed himself.

[Annalaliath]

His literary presence will dwindel to only a trickle and he will be stopped up. He has already stopped up any of his creative energy with that idiot legalisim that he so firmly belives in, and so he will fall into nothingness and darkness. Not to mention a twerp is as a twerp does.

[Yavanna228]

Not to mention a twerp is as a twerp does.
That's a bit harsh. I think that the best arguments come not from attacking the person himself, but from contending his idea. Even then, the best way to disagree is with decorum. Again, to each his own. You are the one who chooses who you will listen to.
Peace

[Finwe]

I really think that we are all disagreeing over a matter that is in itself, very trivial if you look at it objectively. I don't think that Darwin ever meant to completely deny the existence of any deity. It is people's interpretation of his ideas that did that. Why blame him for something that his readers thought?

I don't think that it says anywhere that you cannot believe in Darwinism and believe in God at the same time. For all we know, that first spark of life, that first primeval bacterium, could have been created by God. We just don't know.

I'm sure that many of his ideas were brilliant. He just did not have the capability of communicating them to others in a sound manner. Hence, all his papers sound alike. He probably found one style that received accolades, and kept using that. Can you not deny that it is human nature to keep doing the things that we are good at? If you are an excellent writer, you will keep writing, becoming even better (in some cases). In that sense, he just kept doing the thing that he thought he was doing best.

As for people's interpretations, it has occurred throughout history. It has happened with just about every religion. Social Darwinism has been the means of justification for some of the most horrible acts of bigotry and racism that this world has seen. Some people, in fact most people, in the 1800s and earlier justified slavery by saying that Africans were a lesser-evolved race, and that it was morally right to enslave them.

Christianity has been used as justification for some of the most horrific, violent acts in the history of the world. No one can deny that the Crusades were not violent, bloody, and horrific. What religion condones bloodshed? Even Islam, which has gained the reputation of a bloodthirsty religion, preaches peace. Hinduism preaches peace. Jesus Christ himself preached peace. Buddha preached peace.

It is that interpretation that has caused all this, not the ideas themselves. Most of Darwin's theories were scientifically correct, we can't deny that. But people have used that as justification, and it is that which we must fight against. Why blame the author for what the readers do? He did not mean for those things to happen. He did not mean for his works to be used as a justification for an amoral society. It was PEOPLE that did all that.

It is people that we must fight against, not those original ideas themselves. I agree that our society is becoming hideously amoral. Perhaps it may even degrade to the point of society in Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. God was scoffed at, and science was considered the best thing in the world. There was no God, no morals any more.

We must reconcile ourselves to other theories, other ways of thinking. If we keep bickering over what is right, what is sound, or what is scientifically or politically correct, to what point will we let our world degrade to? When will we realize that we are destroying our world and our society by bickering? Soon it will be too late to erase the scars caused by this bickering.

Open-mindedness is the only way that we can solve these problems. Must it be so difficult to believe in two theories at the same time? If they are so conflicting, then don't believe in them. But don't force that belief or non-belief on others. Each person is born with the right to make their own choices, and we must allow each person to make their own choices. The use of force has never accomplished anything worth fighting for, worth dying for. Only peace has done that. Peace and love have created ideals that millions of people have given up their lives for, willingly. We must use that peace and that love, not force, not hate.

[Annalaliath]

Yo, no one here should be offended by you. And by the way the twerp thing was supposed to be a joke. If that bothered anyone, which it did, then welcome to my sense of humor. I don't expect everyone to find the torturew of someone, or the visials of expoleding people and things to be found as funny. So here is my appology for my sick and twisted sense of humor.

Back to topic: I think that this person who wrote all of this is close-minded(as I stated before). Even more close minded than my grandmother! She thinks that that is a bit much. You know tunnle vision. They guy should have taken an English 102 class, that will help in the formation of both argument and analasis. ( I can't believe I actually passed). He had no argument and he read to much into things, not to mention his lac of reaserch. So to sum this whole thread up.... (wich you can't do in a sentance). This guy does not know what he is talking about. his site brings up alot of religiuos debate. He needs to work on his writing and web page skills and content. He definatly needs to read what he is bashing. And he is plainly a legalist.

Tolkien was a Christian so was Lewis. LOTR should never be compared to Harry Potter and people have a right to express their openions about both. Bla Bla Bla. I could go on for days.

Does that sum up what we were talking about here>

[Lyra Greenleaf]

So Theoric Windcaller, when you ask if you're offending anyone is it because of your positive LOTR comments or your negative HP ones? Personally I would dispute that HP is anti-Christianity/occult. There have been stories of witches and wizards for centuries, because people are fascinated by magic. Is David Blane occult?

If you don't accept HP as true, which I assume is the case for most people here, then why have a problem with it? If we limited people to writing about the truth there would be NO fantasy genre and we would have very different lives. (No BDs... smilies/frown.gif ) It's completely possible to write about a world with no Christianity and still be wholeheartedly Christian. Or else the RPG rooms would be poulated with devils... smilies/evil.gif . Or if JKR is NOT Christian then that's her choice. There should no longer be conversions with the sword.

But, by the way, you didn't offend me. I simply disagree with you which is a different issue... smilies/biggrin.gif

[Magician of Nathar]

Rrrriight.... Evil? Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter? Who on Earth came up with the idea? They are fictions, stories to "cheat thee of a smile, or charm thee to a tear" according to old verse. So Tolkein wrote about wizards and hobbits, and Rowling researched black magic for her books, so what? There are nothing wrong with that, they are just a form of entertainment. People sometimes take the religious aspect of things a little too serious. They would even link up fictions with Satan (I haven't figured out what's wrong with him anyway.) Those voices are very disturbing, methinks. They add conflict to what was a perfect harmony. Sometimes I really think religion is the source of all evil. smilies/evil.gif

[Iarwain]

of course you aren't offending anyone, Theodric! Welcome to the downs, by the way, and never be afraid to share your opinions. smilies/smile.gif It's quite funny that the Tolkien/Rowling debate has come up again. If I had taken interst earlier, I might have contributed a bit more, but I suppose I can still gift the discussion with my prescense (how pompous did that sound).

Theodric, we must remember that there is also a similiar book for the (in my mind) infamously brain-frying show The Simpsons. And the fact that Tolkien's works have extreme allegorical potential, compared to Rowling's books, which work on a very different level.

Iarwain

[Annalaliath]

Did you not read the other replies? Personally I like your opinion. Just because they are yours and not someone ease’s. I tend to share the same opinions with my grandmother so that is why she pops up so much, and by the way welcome to the downs. Life is full of opinions some are right and some are wrong. You can't always see the difference and sometimes you can. Like Denther and Melea's burning of Rivendell in the Elrond's guest book, some can't see the humor in that( I won't give names) while other's can. I have a friend who thinks he is ulgier than the hind end of an orc. I personally think he is growing up wonderfully, but he still won't listen. This is all opnion.

This guy who ever he is; is reading too much into things. He has some misconstrued opinions of many things, especially the Christian faith. But I think that he will not be changed. But like I said this is a good place for expressing your opinions. Check out my posts here, you will see what I mean.

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

[Bekah]

I'm not going to agree or disagree- I just wanted to say that you didn't add a "I think" or "in my opinion" so you are also putting out your opinion as the truth. I am, of course, not saying you're doing what this guy's doing- yours is just an opinion, his is something that it seems he thinks should be forced on everybody- but it's a bit ironic. No offence please, Bekah, I don't mean anything bad about you

Yes, sorry, I meant to say that it is my opinion. It is what I believe to be the truth.

I am a Christian, teach Sunday School, read the bible and send my daughter to a Christian school. I also encouraged her to read both LotR as well as HP and other fantasy writings.

Ah, but according to Mr. Yusko, you are a therefore a hell-bound person, sundered from God's love. And this is what really infuriates me. Jesus died for our sins, and unless we reject his love, [I believe, as do most Christians, I think - this little note is for GOTO's benefit, btw] we cannot be sundered from God. He loves us whatever we do, and whether we reject or accept him, though in the former case we grieve him greatly.

I decided against sending him anything of the sort. I'd only have been flamed by somebody like that.

I think he's got to the stage where no one can get through to him. Gollum's song is quite appropriate for him, only I suspect he doesn't realize that he is lost.

Also, this man seems to insinuate that those who let their children enjoy the occult are condemned to hell. I believe that every one's sin is their own. Guilt cannot be transmitted.


What about Adam's sin? Also, what the guy was saying was that if the parents encourage a sin, then they are guilty. I happen to disagree with this 'sin', though, as I do not believe it is a sin at all.

Forgot to mention, but I believe this argument has already been done in full. InklingElf's "Tolkien v.v. Rowling (NOT on Equal Grounds)" It was a great thread, very much worth reading, but dead all the same.

Here I have to say that I helped Inkling Elf edit that particular essay. She, of course, did the actual writing and all, but I helped fix up the particular wording at a few places.

The main reason I quoted that, though, was that this thread was not started to argue over the differences between LOTR and HP, but to exclaim over the absurdity of claiming that they are sinful books. Perhaps there isn't much point in ranting over it, though.

If this whole thing is a joke, which I hope it is, his use of hyperbole is extremely clumsy. C- on that one.

His euphisms aren't all that great, either. smilies/biggrin.gif

I don't think it's a joke. He seems to be a brainwashed fanatic.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are ALL the same
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And because of that, he's doomed himself.


He's dooomed himself anyway, with his lack of logic. His argument has holes in it all over the place.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to mention a twerp is as a twerp does.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's a bit harsh. I think that the best arguments come not from attacking the person himself, but from contending his idea.

What do you think Alan has done, huh? Personally I'd have to agree that he's a bit of a twerp, but as you say, Yavanna - each to his own.

Is J.K. Rowling a Christian? No!

It makes me sick that people say HP books and LotR books are evil because, there is actual proof that LotR has biblical ties to it.

Don't believe me? LOOK THIS BOOK UP!

Finding God in The Lord of the Rings by Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware.

Read a few pages from that book and then come back and tell me that LotR is evil!!!!!


Woah there!! The book is indeed a good one. I appreciate it greatly.

But you are starting to sound like the guy who ranted at us about the sinfulness of LOTR and HP. It's not good. (Though you didn't offend me.)

Also, I was told from a reliable source that Rowling is of the Church of Scotland. So she at least professes to be a Christian. Whether she is or not I dare not say; only God can judge mankind truly. (Check out my sig.)

Lots of love and God bless you all. Feel free to PM me if you have any bones to pick with me about this.

~ Elentari II

[Annalaliath]

Did i mention that I am going to send him about an email a day from one of my three emial adresses.... I think that he will never read any of them but still it is interesting to see if he responds. Did I mention that mental torture brings me joy?

And I think that everyone has braught to light all that there is to say on this subject. Now we are going to argue the same points over and over.

Like I said before it is all just openions and intrepretaions. The lack of reaserch on his behalf is evedent and my bad spelling is a plauge upon humanity. If he is rioght then we are all going to hell. But then the God he worships is not the god he thinks He is. And if he is wrong(the most likly thing) then we are all okay, and the god of the Bible is the God of mercy , grace, and love. Onward... Maybe yes and Maybe no...

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Oh dear. I've found another problem with the guy's opinions. This is about rock music:
Its hard to believe. Effeminate men dressing up like women with the long hair, jewelry, make-up, and all the secular rock dress. On top of all this these people call themselves 'Christian'!!!
No-one can know for sure, of course, but every picture I've ever seen of Jesus he has LONG HAIR. And I find it very hard to believe that God ever issued an edict: men shalt not wear make-up. That's all societical and secular.

As for us women, we all need to get back to the kitchen as:
The philosophies and practices of the woman’s liberation movement are undermining and destroying our homes and families

And I do very much hope no-one else here is a Beatles fan. I'm doubly-damned. Sniff. No wait, I'm a female who wants a career. Make that triple.

Back to HP. This is about his scar:
See the Satanic lightning bolt. Yes, Harry Potter is part of the devil's plan.
The author helpfully put a little arrow on the picture of the book cover for anyone who couldn't see the scar. But seriously, it's a scar. And it was PUT THERE BY EVILNESS, any evil connections could be seen as springing from that. What would he say about Dumbledore's scar in the shape of the underground map. (I wonder what happened when they opened the Jubilee Line extension?)
Harry Pottie-ism Sorry what?

OK, OK, not Tolkien related. My point is the man is clearly marching to his own tune, and forming his own little religion in which everyone but him is damned, and once damned has no chance of being saved- FORGIVENESS doesn't happen.

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

[Niluial]

Lyra Greenleaf…. I could not agree more. I am sorry but Lyra Greenleafs reply has to be voted the best reply in ‘I don’t believe this’.

[Iarwain]

Whew! Just finished the article. Someone has a good deal of rage against a society that hasn't accepted him or conformed to his views. His argument might do well if he delivered a tirade on something a tad more familiar to him. As others have stated, God's love is unconditional. It will never be taken away. It is not up to shortsighted humans to decide who is hellbound and who is not. Has he seen inside our hearts, read our intentions, lived with our daily emotions and struggles? No. Rather than ranting on how everyone who reads fairy-stories is hellbound, he should publish articles on why Occultism is evil on a more basic level. Perhaps it would make him understand that these books in themselves are not evil at all, but rather are pleasant stories that can (unfortunately) be taken the wrong way by foolish children who believe that magic such as displayed in them is real and become held by something that is utterly nonexistant.


Iarwain

P.S. All of this can be countered easily by caring for your children and teaching them how to treat material like this in a way that will not lead to their utter demise.

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Theoric Windcaller]

Hey guys. Look, in this topic don't even mention my posts or quote anything from them. Pretend I never even looked at this argument. Stop making quotes to my post please. I've been getting PMs about it so forget I even said anything.

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: Theoric Windcaller ]

[The Barrow-Wight]

This topic has been brought to my attention and it is plain that this debate is outside the realm of Middle-earth and Tolkien. I'm closing it and asking everyone to get back to Tolkien.

[THE Ka]

This sounds like another person, late at night, who hasn't slept in a good week, writing about something they heard from television.

The most foolish argument I've heard is the claim that the writer of Lord of the Rings is a Christian therefore his occult books are OK to read. Let's answer that dumb argument right away! NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult.

This quote, was obvious in pointing that this, is yet another hate-targeted essay, and a waste of cyber-space. Clearly, just from scanning it, this person really needs to read their bible again to find that it is not literal in every meaning, and try sampling a few of the discussions that take place in the Lord of The Rings Triology, most of which have a basis in religion similar to the writer. If I recall, does the bible say something of the 'evils' of gossip? ;)

--------------------------------------------------------
Okay, I don't want to write anymore about this. Ignorance saddens me so.

~ Ka

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Hmmm, this old topic was closed by the Barrow-Wight and must have accidentally been reopened during our move last year. I'm closing it again.