Turin Turambar

[Aule-Master_of_Crafts]

Is he an Elf, Man or Dwarf coz I don't know. I think he's a man.

[Galorme]

Man. He was called Elf-man cause he dwelt with elves a lot. But he was definatley 100% a man. He also lived with a dwarf called Mim for a while, but he was not a dwarf.

[Saurreg]

Turin was the son of Hurin and morwen, both of them were humans. Nuff said.

[Kalimac]

Man. Albeit he could talk to his sword, so there was probably something a little funny about him, but still...

[Galorme]

The sword came from Outer Space. I am sure that could do something to it. Oh yeah and Túrin was not exactly of a totally sane disposition.

[StarJewel]

I would have to agree with Galorme on the not sane thing. The guy married his sister, killed his best friend, and got his girlfriend killed. Then he went and took himself out. Of course, he had the whole curse thing going, so its not surprising that you could hear the fuses blowing in his brain

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

well, Melkor cursed Húrin and his kin. i think that Narn i hin Húrin, where the story is told is very sad and i wouldn't say that Túrin was insane.
imagine: a little boy have lost his sister, mother and father before he was even ten. he had left his home and did a tough journey to Thingol and Melian. he got blaimed for Saeros's murder though he was innocent.very cheery, isn't it.
Túrin killed Beleg 'cause he thought that he was an orc(there was dark and suddenly he awaked and thought that Beleg was an enemy).
He married his sister but he didn't know that she was Nienor. He hadn't ever seen her and Glaurung-dragon had done something to Nienor so she couldn't remember who she was.

so, lots of accidents and "bad luck".

[Måns]

Still, would all this have happened if it had not beeen for his rashness? One cannot free the "hero" of all blame just because he is the hero, everybody is utterly responsible for the actions. Of course, I am not the first that points out the similarity between this story and that of Oidipus and Kadmic Thebes but this kind of things was well established in Greek tradition. "This kind of things" is the sytematic destruction of a family line with utter thoruoughness and sadness too. Look at the sons of Atrevs, Menelaos and Agamemnon, there was a "curse" or a "divine punishment" upon them too that followed their line. As with Túrin they were somewhat aware of this and always caused their own misery, with a little help from an enemy. As example, Agamemnon was forced to sacrifice his own daughter to get wind for his hsips because he ahd shot one of Artemis's hinds. Túrin was forced to bear the blame for Saeros deaths, in both cases, the men had been rash and tried to overrule laws, divine or more concrete, consciously or not. Tolkien was, as all gentlemen of the time at least slightly learned in Greek litterary tradition and might have picked some stuff up there. Or maybe it is jsut me with my eccentric fascination for this smilies/wink.gif.

This leads into a more interesting reasoning, wheter laws should be considered infallible and always obeyed or not. As example, Jesus. Since we do not know anything about Jesus except what the Bible says which is written by his followers and thus partial I will be careful with facts. Jesus was obviously a severe criminal and a revolter, seeing it from a judicial point of view, he had been proclaimed King of the Jews which was considered as a severe crime in the Roman empire, not without it's grounds. But then again, what was he guilty too? The law was simply a bit too blind. I would like to pooint out that I do not belong to any of the three religions concerned with Jesus. I repeat, I am not Jewish, Muslim or Christian.

Another example is the curse of Mandos. What ahd men done to be drawn into it? And thus we have returned to the starting point, Túrin. Was eh guilty? For it was not only the curse of Morgoth, but also that of Mandos that affected his actions. What had he done, except fighting bravley to protect his family adn homeland?

Intriguing question indeed.

EDIT: Thanks for the welcome and the link to that thread, interesting reasong, men orka läsa gamla trådar som man inte kan diskutera i smilies/wink.gif!

Måns

[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]

[HerenIstarion]

Nobody heard Turin talk to his sword, since no one else was present.

It may be later adornment

[The Saucepan Man]

Welcome to the Downs Måns and happy haunting! smilies/smile.gif

You may well be interested in a quite recent thread called Hurin and despair (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003281), which includes a detailed discussion of the extent to which Turin was able to act with free will and how much blame he should take for the terrible tragedies which befell him and his kin.

Enjoy!

[Palan]

It is inappropriate to call Turin insane; he as is well stated above, cursed. The curse upon Hurin and his kin are well documented in the Silmarillion and UT. Hurin is forced to watch Melkor's curse play itself out on all of his offspring (it can be noted that Melkor was extremely worried that Turin would break away from the curse because of his valiant actions). His life is very much the "Greek Tragedy." He is fated to fall in the end despite his valiant attempts to do right. His life is intertwined between the curse of Melkor, and of less extent the curse of Mandos. One may note that in early writings of the Dagor Dagorath, Tolkien acknowledges the need for retribution for the curse Melkor has placed on the family of Hurin. In the final battle, it is Turin who will ultimately and completely defeat Melkor in atonement for his family's cursed existence.

[Finwen]

It is inappropriate to call Turin insane; he as is well stated above, cursed.

This doesn't mean he wasn't insane. It's my view that Turin wasn't exactly in his right mind towards the end of the 'Narn,' namely when he discovers that Niniel is actually his sister.

When Mablung confirmed his thoughts that Niniel may be his sister, "Turin laughed loud and shrill" and then begins to ramble (his "I am blind!" speech). Mablung even says that Turin "is fey and witless."

His conversation with the sword may have something to do with this, i.e. he thought he heard the sword speak, because he wasn't entirely sane.

There's also the fact that he killed himself at that moment. The only people (please correct me if I'm wrong) who kill themselves willingly in Middle Earth are those in a less then stable state of mind for whatever reason (Turin, Niniel, Maedhros). It just shows how bad it was for him.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that Turin was insane, especially towards the end. You can see how he could be; having a life like he did wouldn't exactly help, and such a curse would be enough to drive anyone to insanity.

(Quotes from Unfinished Tales)

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I also find it funny that when questioned by Brandir about what his sister, Nienor looked like, he gives a completely different description, rather amusing, for me, I think he realised that Brandir's words rang true but still couldn't face up to it.

Though, when questioning Turin's fate, one would like for him to get his own back upon Morgoth. This is apparent in Turumbar and The Foaloke(BoLT 2) in which he comes back to fight besides Fionwe, the pre-cursor of Eonwe, who is here Manwe's son as opposed to his herald, as the idea of Valarin pro-creation was latter dropped in the writing of the Latter Quenta Silmarillionbut in the writing of Sketch of the Mythology (HoME 4)his role was expanded to him slaying Melkor himself, with Fionwe and Tulkas at his side. This is latter re-iterated in the Prophecy of Mandos in the Early Quenta Silmarillion(HoME 5)in which Namo prophecies that Turin would come back and slay Melkor bu there is one main problem with this- the Valaquenta claims that Namo wouldn't reveal anything about Arda's fate so it is not a authentic Noldorin text, and is a Numenorean tale, and our fears are allayed in Myths Transformed (HoME 10)when Tolkien states that the Three Great Tales, Turin, Luthien and Earendil were of Numenorean origin and men had a habit of bringing in their own mythos into the legendarium, thus the 'false' tale of the Sun+Moon creation. They may have derived this idea from the Beorian wise-woman, Andreth, of the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth(HoME 10) who is said in the Problem of Ros (HoME 12)to prophesise that in the Dagorath he will slay Ancalagon, though the Andreth like anyone is fallible, it seems that Turin would now be slaying Ancalagon instead of Morgoth, yet this still doesn't fit in with the doom of men that they would pass to beyond the circle of the world, even if Turin is a exception. And though Tolkien never STATES he has abandoned Turin's slaying of Morgoth, I think he had.

[Finwen]

I also find it funny that when questioned by Brandir about what his sister, Nienor looked like, he gives a completely different description, rather amusing, for me, I think he realised that Brandir's words rang true but still couldn't face up to it.

Do you mean when Turin gives the complete opposite description of his wife (a.k.a sister) to Mablung, for the very reason that he knows Mablung will correct him, give the correct description and prove that his worst fear was right: Niniel is his sister?

Yes, I was going to mention that in my earlier post. I think that shows that he at least has a grasp on some (fraying) threads of sanity; he has the brains enough to formulate a plan that will provide him with the answer to the question, and yet does not result in him having to verbally acknowledge it, which is probably his worst fear.

At least that's my take on it: he's insane (as you'd expect), but not totally "witless" (as Mablung says).

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Do you mean when Turin gives the complete opposite description of his wife (a.k.a sister) to Mablung, for the very reason that he knows Mablung will correct him, give the correct description and prove that his worst fear was right: Niniel is his sister?

Indeed....'Brandir' was just a typo. for Mablung. (Sorry, I didn't check up on who he told. smilies/rolleyes.gif )

[Palan]

I just finished re-reading the section of the Silm dealing with Turin, and find that, at least in my mind, it conflicts with the Narn. When reading the Silm, I find that Turin is not insane, but misguided by the lies of Melkor and Glaurung; his only bout of "madness" is when he thinks Brandir is lying and has something to do with Nienor's death, but the madness is fleeting. Once he runs into Mablung, he sees the how he was misguided, and he can now see the truth as to what has happened (unjustly killed Brandir, accidentally killed Beleg, drove his sister to suicide, etc.)

The Narn may lead you to believe that Turin was on the cusp of insanity if not completely insane. The question is which text to you take as truth?

[Finwe]

A lot of the misfortunes of the Elves and Men of that age was caused by the lies of Morgoth. He wanted them to destroy each other, or end up becoming so weak that his minions could destroy them. I think that he probably got a perverse sort of amusement from "watching" what happened to Turin. It almost seems like a soap opera.

[Aragost]

I agree with most of the people here that Turin was insane, he killed his best friend, married his sister and, talked to his sword.

To me that is enough to say that someone is insane, but his lack of sanity may be because Melkor cursed Hurin's Kindred and the insaneness would be a part of the curse.

[Finwen]

The Narn may lead you to believe that Turin was on the cusp of insanity if not completely insane. The question is which text to you take as truth?

I take the Narn as more truthful, as it is a more in-depth story of the tale of Turin, and in many cases his feelings during several events are more clearly shown; whereas Turin's story in Silm is more brief and does not (and is not intended to) show it in the detail that the Narn does.

However, I feel that even in Silm his insanity towards the end is shown: he "laughed like one fey" and when he ran off the others "wondered what madness had taken him" (or something like that - I don't have Silm to hand smilies/smile.gif)

I think that he probably got a perverse sort of amusement from "watching" what happened to Turin. It almost seems like a soap opera.

*giggles* The mental image... smilies/biggrin.gif

[The_Hand]

Eh just I thought... but I think pethaps that even though this isn't a "real" legend is in something passed down for hundreds and hundreds of generations and reallt created by one man maybe Tolkien never really wanted us to have just one version of the story... (The Silm making him seem less insane and the other not so or who is suppose kill, Morgoth or whatever) because when we have lots of different version it makes it seem more real... because real myths always have different versions from different people. I like it this way it makes it all seem more real... don't know if any of you agree but by all means keep discussing. I find it all facinating!

[Sillabub]

I think he's a man too. I personally don'y give a hoot about him tho. It's his sister Nienor Niniel that I'm interested in. She's really interesting...