Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

[Samwise of the shire]

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Ok this might seem a bit off topic but it'll make sense soon -I hope-.Ok when I was reading HP I noticed that Rowling COPIED Tolkien,big time-ok other authors copy Tolkien-but when I was reading a passage in an HP book I noticed that the poltergeist is a...get this...HOBBIT!!!! She's poking fun at Tolkiens suprior writing!How do I know?It says that Peeves -the potltergeist- turns upside down and,wiggiling his WOOLEY toes zooms down the hall swearing.And her dementors sound alot like the black riders-HP can even resist them- (someone tie me in a chair and douse me with a bucket of cold water please)If anyone has noticed anything else about HP -wether it be writing that sounds alot like Tolkiens or if you'd like to compare charater traits-post here. Ok?
A thoroghly outraged
Samwise Gamgee

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[Orald]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

Never read HP, I thought about it when I read an article in Readers Digest about Rowling, but I decided that I spend to much time on the internet to pick up any new hobbies. I thought the HP books were for children anyway.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Inziladun]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

I've heard a great deal about Harry Potter,but never glanced at any of the books. I thought they were for children too,not that that's bad.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Zoe]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

Sam: just because Peeves has wooly toes, doesn't mean he's a hobbit. Admitedly, I'm not that familiar with HP, but I'm pretty certain Rowling never mentions the word 'hobbit'. And if he had wooly toes, he could just be a nice, innocent woolly mammoth. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

As for comparing the Dementors to the Black Riders - you could, but then, you could also say that they're pretty Star Wars-ish too.

Anything can be linked back to Tolkien if you try hard enough, and similarities don't mean plaigarism (spelling?). Isaac Asimov once wrote an essay about that - it's in Gold I think - where he deals pretty well with the topic.

(Oh, not to sound like a major HP freak, but is Tolkien's writing so much 'superior', as different in style and content?)

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[enep]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

Plagiarism. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

Depends on your view, age, level of knowledge etc. as to 'superiority.' Do you classify Tolkien as superior because of its depth? Mythological values? Or do you think of HP as superior because you're 8 and like the characters?

Does it really matter? <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b"> You can't compare HP and Tolkien, they're two completely different things - in setting, characters etc. To compare the work of a lore master and superb linguist like Tolkien to the works of JK Rowling, a humble but successful author, aimed at kids 7+, would be near impossible. Not to say that HP is not written well; because it is, and is targeted to the intended audience as it should.

Like Z said, there are parallels to Tolkien everywhere - when you think about it, there are Tolkien-istic themes in everything from Redwall to Star Wars, even if they are just basic good v. evil (I think I posted something similar to this in a dif. thread) or something more delicate, storyline or character parallels.

Bah! I'm getting tired of typing so much. E out.

- enep</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 3/8/01 4:00:02 am

[Balin999]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

i read all 4 books (for my question of special interest in school: english) and there are similarities everywhere.
well, take the trolls or the goblins.. ok i guess they were not invented by tolkien (were they?) but i think that rowling has definitely been partly influenced by the lord of the rings.


Behold the King of Moria!</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:Why are you saying that redwall is simalir?

I've read almost all of the redwall books and have'nt been able to find anything simalir between the books at all.And as for star wars it's just lotr turned sci-fi,but zoe-if you ever read them-like balin stated you gotta admit that the troll in the 1st book sounds an awful like one of the trolls Bilbo meets in &quot;The Hobbit&quot;-only a bit stupider but those trolls were smarter than the average Tolkien troll-.But as for the goblins?I dunno Balin they dont sound much like the goblins in Tolkien-to me that is-,but lookit the simalarites between Hagrid and Beorn,both are giants with black hair and beardas and both love animals-though Beorn goes for much safer animals than Hagrid-.
And another thing,has anyone noticed HP's attitude?Compare his with oh...Aragorns or Sam's or anyone elses for that matter then post what you found ok?
The still somewhat ticked
Samwise
ps has anyone dumped that pail of water one me?*grin*

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[Aldaron]

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Re: Re:Harry Potter

I don't think we can say that Rowling was making fun of Tolkien or even copying him. There is such a thing as paying homage, and if anything, I think that is what Rowling might have been doing. I've only read the first book but I enjoyed it a lot. Yes, it was written for children, but this doesn't mean that adults can't enjoy it. I know quite a few adults who have read the books. Is Winnie-the-Pooh only a children's book, or The Wind in the Willows? Or John Bellairs wonderful series? Or currently Philip Pullman? It's true that we can spend plenty of time in the world that Tolkien created but it doesn't hurt to try something else once in a while. Then you can come back refreshed and ready for a new look at what Tolkien wrote.

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[Oliphaunt]

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Redwall

I was a big Redwall fan a few years back and I read on a FAQ to Brian Jacques (the author) that he had never read Tolkien, and I think it reflects more of the King Arthur legends than anything (hero, special sword, etc). But if you're looking for good fantasy lit, try to get your hands on some George Macdonald. He was pre-Tolkien, which is an accomplishment few fantasy writers can claim. It's really refreshing. Fantasy without a quest or even elves! A few of his books have goblins that are a lot like the goblins in the hobbit, but you can't claim George Macdonald copied JRRT.

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[Zoe]

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Re: Redwall

Tolkien did not 'invent' elves, dragons, goblins, trolls, etc. I think even Ents come from previous literature. Tolkien's work was intended to be a mythology for England, and as such contained elements found in english/european folk tales.

Harry Potter, on the other hand, is a school story, with wizards and (very much &quot;abracadabra&quot;, mechanical) magic thrown in. (This fact doesn't affect the quality at all, it's just a classification.) As such, it bears considerable similarities to The Great English School Story, as written well-known-ed-ly (?!!), but certainly not exclusively, by Enid Blyton. If you read the Mallory Towers books and then read Harry Potter, you will see far more similarities between the two than between HP and Tolkien.


I could even go as far as hypothesising that the similarities (or copying/making fun of, as you call it, Sam) found between the two are more a result of our natural wish to find similarities between things which are in the same category, and to work out why they are in the same category. Harry Potter and Tolkien's work have both been put into the 'fantasy' category by book sellers, and therefore, we see similarities which are simply coincidental, minor, and meaningless.

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[enep]

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Re: Redwall

Regarding Redwall: I didn't know that he'd never read LotR or Tolkien, which suprises me. Brian Jacques writes with a flair reminiscence of Tolkien but the grandeur of legends like King Arthur.

Wow, that sentence kicked ***. Gotta remember that for my next book review <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=":D">

If you think hard enough, you can find similarities everywhere. You could say Tolkien 'copied' others, others 'copied' Tolkien, and that one author 'copied' another.

It seems nothing's original these days. <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":/">

- enep</p>

[Zoe]

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Re: Redwall

There is nothing new under the Sun.

(Argh! I just 'plagiarised' the Bible! <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> )

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[enep]

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Re: Redwall

Blah. That's what I say to plagiarism <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

- enep</p>

[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

(What, I'm the only child?)
To clarify:

JKR had not read any Tolkien when she wrote the books. (I read that in an interview, the One Ring or something.) Her magic is the 'abracadabra' type (Actually she uses latin.)
The books are very good. Really. They're magical realism, or something.
Actually, I was once a 'major HP freak' - that's the reason I'm online in the first place, I used to roleplay at a hogwarts and it was through 'Hogwarts' taht I became adicted to the computer. <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":p">
Seriously, they're very good. The thing that actually struck me most as a similarity is 'He who must not be named' - Rowling and 'He who we do not name' - Tolkien. Also the 'Wormtail' and 'Wormtongue' (I only know for sure that she hadn't read Tolkien in the beginning.)

And in closing:
JKR admits to copying a lot of names and so on. I've found quite a lot of HP names in other places, and almost all the names in her books are word plays - Remus Lupin, a werewolf (there's a legend behind the Remus, 'boy raised by wolves', and Loup is moon in french.) Almost every name in the book has a meaning behind it; from a language or a legend or a book.

~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:Hello peoples WAKE UP

Did I say you couldnt try anything else?No I did not so you must've read wrong.It's just that after reading Tolkien I just cant find as good liturature and I would say HP is below

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[Zoe]

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Re: Re:Hello peoples WAKE UP

Sam - And I say that HP isn't 'below', just different. We're probably never going to agree, though. It's all a matter of personal taste.

Of course you didn't say that there weren't other similarities, but I (and whoever else, can't be bothered checking back on the topic) would argue that because there are so many similarities to completely different texts, it seems a little bit too much to argue that, on the basis of wooly toes and dementors, HP is at all related to Tolkien.

Hannah 3 - If, by &quot;What, I'm the only child?&quot; you mean &quot;Am I the only child at this board&quot;, then no, you're not. I'm 14 - hardly an adult. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

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[Elenanna]

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Re: Re:Hello peoples WAKE UP

if ur comparing 2 tolkien then u will think many things r 'below' but at least JKR admits 2 copying {i heard in an interview} but she only copies afew things like names and a few phrases loads of people do that. She's just using some ideas to write childrens stories and theres nothing i have against her for that.
And hannah im sure there r plenty of kids on this board im 13 <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> <img src=roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> {not that i need to tell you that}

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:gad zooks!!!!

Ok your getting me wrong.What in the heck happend to my previous post?I was going to ask you what type of charectaristics can you find about HP's attitude and the charecters in LOTR?Like does HP tell the truth?Or did he save Ginny because she was his best friend's sis or just cause he didnt want to live with the muggles?Now why did Frodo go to save people he never even Know?Or why did Merry go and tell the truth after he disobeyed Theoden?See it's not just cause of simalarities in the book that I'm arguing about it's also the fact that HP's ATTITUDE is not an attitude I'd want a hero to have.Hey Hannah3 don't feel bad I turned 13 on Jan.28th only a few months ago.'Elen sila lumenn omentilmo'welcome to the barrow downs forum and webpage.
a toatally ecstatic
Sam Gamgee

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[Zoe]

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Re: Re:gad zooks!!!!

It could be argued that Frodo had a perfectly good interest in 'going to save people he didn't know': if Sauron got the Ring, he'd be dead/enslaved, too.

But, moving right along...

I can't quite see what you're trying to argue. Are you saying that Harry Potter is inferior in quality, or morally inferior, or both? How is this related to Tolkien? Is it just that you prefer Tolkien's works, or do you think there's some element of Rowling 'mocking' Tolkien?

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[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

I found this at Hagrid's Hut:

UKMCLive: Kissa371 asks...Your Harry Potter books remind me of JRR Tolkien's Hobbit and Lord of the Rings triology. (My niece is borrowing my Tolkien books to keep her busy until your next book.) Are you a Tolkien fan? Did his work influence the Harry Potter series?

JKR Live: Well, I love the Hobbit, but I think, if you set aside the fact that the books overlap in terms of dragons &amp; wands &amp; wizards, the Harry Potter books are very different, especially in tone. Tolkien created a whole mythology, I don't think anyone could claim that I have done that. On the other hand...he didn't have Dudley ;o)



There!


What's wrong with Harry's attitude? He'd have saved Ginny whether he was Ron's sister or not, simply because he's nice. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

[Elenanna]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

i agree, its pointless to demean a well-known childrens author just because they have simularities to Tolkien. Oh, sure they have some names the same but JKR doesnt completely copy him and the stories are totally different so are the charactors

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo. </p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:I'm wasting my breath.

Re read my past posts and figure out what I'm trying to get at.

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[Zoe]

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Re: Re:I'm wasting my breath.

Elenanna: I thought that most of the names in HP were based on Latin or were anagrams? I could be wrong, mind you, but I've never seen any names of people in HP in common with Tolkien, and I think I'd have noticed if I did. (Then again, I've only read the 1st 3 HP books.)

Sam: (I'm sorry, but my formal debating side just kicked in... <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> ) It's generally considered to be bad form to not argue a clear case and then expect people to understand what you're trying to get at. What point are you trying to make?

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[Elenanna]

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Re: Re:I'm wasting my breath.

karkaroth? in the silm the wolf, not huan or drauglin the one that eats beren,s hand. (i dont know the exact spelling...)

Visit my site at http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140Lorien</a>

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[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:I'm wasting my breath.

No really, I don't see what point you're making. wormtongue and wormtail is the only real thing I noticed, and 'he who must not be named' with 'he who we do not name', as I already said. Otherwise, they do, as Zoe said, come from latin and legends.
Sirius, who can become a dog = a dog constalation or star, I forget which.
Erised (the mirror) = Desire backwards.
Minerva = a Goddess.
Dumbledore = bumblebee (old english).

I can give you a full list but not here, if you're interested - anyway, almost every name has a meaning connected with the character, Vol de mort, flight of death (french), and just about everything else.


~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:sorry 'bout that Z didnt think straight

The points I'm getting at are,#1 LOTR is WAY above HP in writing,because of the excellent plot,and cause it's a new world -Tolkien made up the Hobbits and Ents and all of middle earth-.#2Hp's moral charectaristics-what moral charecteristics?- STINK,BAD compared to Tolkiens charecters.Why does Hp lie about the muraders map?'Cause he doesnt want to face the few consequences.Why does Hagrid raise an illegal dragon in his hut?Because he-and others-dont give a darn about the law,but when the concequences come they start carring all of a sudden.And here's a couple questions that you can answer,k? Why dont the charecters in LOTR lie?Why do they ask forgiveness for their wrongs?,Why?-if there are any more whys add them ok?-And H3 wormtounge and he who must not be named are all you can think of?I can think of dozens, the HP mountain troll and &quot;the Hobbit' mountain trolls-they have scales and are dull witted-,the womping willow and old man willow-both are dangerous,located near a body of water,and both are willows-,Hagrid and Beorn-they live in huts up against woods, both are giants with black beards,and they both love animals-,the forbidden forest and mirkwood-both are dark with giant spiders living in them and theres a path that needs to be stayed on-, just to name a few.
Hope that explained Z
The still somewhat ticked
Samwise Gamgee

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[Aldaron]

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Re: Re:Harry Potter

Well, folks, we're not going to change Samwise's mind about this. Rowling's Harry Potter books tell an entirely different sort of story, and JKR's own words say that there is a difference in tone. Tolkien took on events that would change the face of Middle Earth. Rowling shows us the growth and advancement of HP and his friends as they go through a school of magic. Each of these writers has done what they set out to do. Rowling didn't set out to write another LotR. She has succeeded more than adequately at what she set out to do. And of course we acknowledge that Tolkien also accomplished what he set out to do. Perhaps his goal was more lofty. If attempting a larger story and succeeding is what Samwise means, then he is correct. But you have to admit that Rowling has succeeded also and sure has made a lot of kids into readers. And guess what? They'll get to Tolkien sooner or later.

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[Zoe]

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Re: Re:Harry Potter

Sam: Frankly, if every book I read was full of people who do the right thing, all the time, and never have any weaknesses, I'd give up on reading altogether.

Of course Harry Potter isn't full of wonderful people who always do exactly what they should. Just like the real world isn't full of wonderful people who always do what they should. Thus, if an otherwise ordinary character does something great, it's even better. If a perfect character did something great, no-one would care.

BTW: I wouldn't really count the troll example. Trolls were not invented by Tolkien. Traditionally, trolls are fairly stupid, too. You've hardly got grounds to claim plagiarism.

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[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:sorry 'bout that Z didnt think straight

Oh, this is ridiculous....

OK look, I'll try take them one by one.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 1)LOTR is WAY above HP in writing,because of the excellent plot,and cause it's a new world -Tolkien made up the Hobbits and Ents and all of middle earth-.<hr></blockquote>

That's true. Tolkein created a different world, different creatures, and so on. The charm - for me and many others - in HP is that it's in this world. I can relate to some of the characters - Hermione, for one, is just like me about SPEW, I'm very into animal rights - where would I find that in a world where everything is different? I love middle earth, but I also love the smaller world she created. Because I can almost believe in it.
If your definition of a better book is 'longer, very unreal' then yes, you're 100% right. but that's not MY definition.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 2Hp's moral charectaristics-what moral charecteristics?- STINK,BAD compared to Tolkiens charecters.<hr></blockquote>

He's a school boy. So what if he lies about maps and doesn't do his homework? You'll notice most children don't do their homework occasionally and tell lies because they don't want the punishment and problems that follow the truth. It's not important. You know, I've been to lots of places where religious people talk about how HP books are a bad influence and so on and so on, because the characters tell lies and the teachers still like them and they're not properly punished for what they do.
Each time, I've stared and thought, does it matter? Harry is brave, he's nice to people - well, most people - he's not very clever like Hermione, he doesn't show off, doesn't enjoy his fame, tries to be normal, and is altogether good. Does it matter that he tells an occasional lie? He often has good reason for it. Take the marauders map. How would it be if he told? His friends would be in trouble. As to Hagrid, who cares? He loves animals too much.

The characters in the LoTR don't lie because... well. Where would a character lie in LotR? Tell me where a character would have lied but didn't. A situation like the Maurauders Map, and then I'll tell you.

They ask forgiveness because they know they've done something very wrong and they're grown up and mature. Unlike Harry. Again, I need references. What does Harry do that he should ask forgiveness for and he doesn't? what does A L.R. character do that he does ask forgiveness for?

Finally, all the similarities - Trolls are always, as Zoe says, stupid and so on. JK uses traditional animals - though not always very well-known ones - Hippogriffs, Basilisks, etc.
There is a similarity between the two willows, but like I tell you she hadn't READ L.R. at the time - it was in an interview somewhere - the One Ring, I think. Saying that 'people kept asking if I'd read tLotR once I was famous for my own books, and it was embarrasing that I had to keep saying no, so I read it and yes, I liked it.' Or something of the sort.
Sorry, but who is Beorn? I haven't read the Silmarrilion properly and I don't remember anyone in the L.R.
You can look for similarities everywhere and find them. You just need to look hard enough. I don't think JKR copied Tolkien's Mirkwood with the forbidden forest, but I can't prove otherwise. (Same with the willows.)
And if she did - so? Why does that make you so mad? I don't see a problem myself.

~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

[Elenanna]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 76</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:sorry 'bout that Z didnt think straight

hannah beorn in the HOBBIT where the eagles drop them before mirkwood. REMEMBER?

Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 14</TD><TD><img src=http--images.neopets.com-images-newfirefaerie.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:sorry 'bout that Z didnt think straight

*Blushes*

Sorry! OK, well, let me think. He's the bear-person isn't he? UNlike Hagrid.

~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

[Elenanna]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 79</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:sorry 'bout that Z didnt think straight

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> yes. btw i agree w/ u about everything else

Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 47</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:Whoooooaaaaaaaaa

Hannah,you must not've read the Return of the king straight.What does Merry do when he goes over to the dieing Theoden in &quot;The battle of the Pellenor fields&quot;?He asks forgivness,for DISOBEYING Theoden's command not to go into battle,he ADMITS that he did something wrong.And what does Frodo do in the Cirith Ungol tower after he accuses Sam of theft?He asks FORGIVENESS from his servant,showing he admits he was in the wrong,and that he needs it from even his servant.Make sense?HP would'nt do that if he snapped at Colin,or if he disobeyed Lupin.And as for someone lying in LOTR Pippin could've said that Merry dropped the pepple down the well in Moria or Sam could've said &quot;I just came by and I just got to the window,I did'nt hear anything&quot;or Pippin could've said&quot;the stone rolled from under your head Gandalf and it came undone and I could'nt take my eyes away&quot;.See LOTR charecters are only human and can lie and disobey but at least they ADMIT it.Unlike HP.And I would'nt want a hero that lied and then did'nt admit it.Understand now?And Zoe your right but there is so much more I'm trying to get at-hopefully the above explained,a bit-.
still somewhat ticked
Samwise Gamgee
PS.Hannah how old are you?You should try the sil.


</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 281</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Whoooooaaaaaaaaa

Okay, so you think that the heroes in LotR are 'good', but in HP they're 'bad', and somehow this affects the merit of a work. I disagree entirely, but I don't think we'll ever come to a conclusion, so how about we drop it, since we're getting nowhere.

</p>

[KayQy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 161</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
To beat a dead horse...

I have read HP, and liked it a lot, but I never really noticed any similarities between it and LotR, except for the common fantasy ones. If you want to see a cheap imitation, try The Sword of Shannara. Plagiarism if I ever saw it... but I've mentioned that in other threads, so I'll leave that horse alone and go on to the next one:

HP's morals. Okay, they could be better, definitely, but you've got to remember:
1. Where he's coming from. He was orphaned as a baby and has lived with a nasty family that despises and fears him nearly all his life. We can't all be Cinderellas here. Plus, at school, he has very mean enemies, both teachers and classmates, often disguised as friends, not to mention powerful, evil wizards out to kill him, his friends, and a lot of other people.
2. He's a kid. He's still learning about things, hitting those &quot;rebellious teenage years.&quot; And he does apologize for things, just generally in that reluctant, embarassed way that most people have (because who likes to admit they were wrong?)
3. He isn't a model of purity, but he's still trying to do the right thing. He sticks up for people, saves them, and learns that even people who don't like each other can still be on the same side.

I could probably go on, but I think this is quite long enough. Basically I think he is doing the best he can under the burdens he has.

They cannot conquer forever!</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 53</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
re:good point...

butwhat about Frodo?He has a burden,majorly,alot more than HP,he's got THREE enemys that want the ring-Saruman,Sauron,and Gollum- and he gets wounded while trying to fufill the quest -which he fails-.And does he act like Hp?Heck no!And what about Pippin,he's still a tween.Is he rebellious?No, and not all teens are rebellious.HP doesnt have to act like he does just because someone wants to kill him.And yes Hannah you're right in saying I do'nt like Hp, and here's why,his charecteristics are'nt charecteristics I'd want in a hero not the fact that there're simalarites between him and Tolkien.As for this agrument ending?Well I dont think it will for a looooong time-I really dont want it to-so keep it up -you've got some good points it's just that I do'nt agree with most of them-.
A somewhat cooled down
Samwise of the shire

</p>

[mwcfrodo]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 39</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Oh, I can't resist!

Oh, I can't resist stirring this up some more.

Frodo (whom I adore) not only told lies, but lived a lie for several months when he was planning to exit from the Shire. He led everyone to believe that his money had run out and he was returning to Buckland to live a more quiet, simple life. NOT!!

And when he fell off the table in Bree, he told everyone, &quot;I didn't vanish, I crawled away to chat with my good buddy Strider.&quot; NOT!!! Wait--and hadn't Frodo just lied about his name? No, it was Merry who lied to Butterbur: &quot;And this is my friend Mr. Underhill&quot; NOT!! (Nasty hobbitses, lying hobbitses...)

Finally, okay not LOTR, but JRRT) Bilbo certainly lied about how he got the Ring. Indeed, only Frodo &amp; Gandalf (and maybe Sam who'd been eavesdropping) knew the true story until the Council of Rivendell. Speaking of morality and ethics...for what it says of Sam's character, eavesdropping is generally not considered morally correct behavior.

BUT, regarding one of the ORIGINAL points of this thread--plagarism. I've read all the Harry Potter books and I found only one rather distrubing similarity. That was in Book 3 when Scabber (in human form) pleads with the others to spare him. His pleas are very, very reminiscent of Gollum's pleas to Frodo. &quot;Don't hurt me master, good master.&quot; I had heard rumors of possible infringementlawsuits by the Tolkien estate and wondered what they were thinking until I hit that scene.

One cannot copyright an idea, only the unique expression of that idea. To me, the tone and phrasing of that scene skated way closer to the edge of &quot;unique expression&quot; than I feel comfortable about. (As a managing editor, I'd undoubtably ask my writers to rephrase anything that close to a previously existing source, just to be on the safe side.) On the other hand, the amount of text is very small in proportion to the book's overall length and the characters' situations and overall plot/tone are very different, so I can't see the Tolkien Estate charging into court -- they undoubtably have bigger issues with the &quot;expanded&quot; role of Arwen in the movie. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">



</p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 21</TD><TD><img src=http--images.neopets.com-images-newfirefaerie.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Whoooooaaaaaaaaa

((Twelve. And I did read the Silmarrilion... in parts... <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> ))

OK, I was utterly outraged reading some ridiculous things Sam just said, so I'll have to answer before I can approvingly read the replies:

I'm not sure I read that properly. You want Harry apologizing to Colin? He would if he was particularly horrible or something, but for heavens sake! Does Sam apologize to Bill Ferny for chucking apples at him? Not that Harry ever showed something worse than fairly quiet irritation at Colin's pestering.

Secondly. You think someone oculd lie - to Gandalf?!! he's WIZARD. He knew even when SARUMAN lied to him. And you think a hobbit might consider it and get away with it?
Does Harry Potter incriminate his friends by lying? No. In fact, when Hermione lies in the first book, she does so to show them she's grateful that they saved her life. And so, I think 'Pippin could have said it was Merry' is just plain stupid. Harry Potter wouldn't have.

Sam is a lot more than a servant. I was never quite able to think of him as a servant. He's Frodo's best friend once they leave the shire. In case it escaped your notice, (Zoe, don't read this) Ron asks Harry's FORGIVENESS for disbelieving him in book 4 - and Harry is big enough to let him off it, nice enough to say 'you don't have to apologize, forget it.'

As to Pippin and the Palantir, that was the first thing I thought of when I wondered where they could have lied and didn't - but the idea is ridiculous. Pippin was a terrified wreck at that moment. If he'd been lying about it, Gandalf would have known it, if not at that point then afterwards, when Gandalf makes him look up and sees the truth in his eyes. Firstly he was too upset to lie, secondly it was not in his best intrest. He was in trouble for having looked at all. and if he'd lied about it, things would not have returned to their (fairly) notmal course - Gandalf wouldn't have accepted him back into the company with 'You remain a fool, but an honest fool.'

Now I read the replies...

Thank you everyone!

Now Sam... To the next argument...

OK, fine, Frodo has a large burden. Three enimies. And he doesn't stand up to it so well, does he now? One of the enimies is no worry till the very end - but anyway - first, he's an ADULT, 50, he can take it, mostly. As to Pippin in his tweens, please remember that when you are 20+ you are no longer considered a 'rebelious teenager', also, I don't know what tennaged hobbits are like.
When I said he doesn't manage so well, I mean look at his behavior in Mordor. He wasn't always the model of kindness, was he? talking to Sam like that. Even if he asked to be forgiven later.
Harry Potter is a child. With an unhappy childhood, and as soon as he becomes 11 he is happy - but it's not all joy, is it? How would Frodo feel if everyone in the company except Sam was turned against him? (Book 4, whole school except Gryffindors hate Harry.) Or if he had to hear his parents die? Or if he was faced with their murderer?
In each of these situations - excepting, maybe, the first, in which he just went around being miserable - Harry acted in a way I have to admire.

And besides... look at other Tolkien characters! take Turin. He DEFINATELY wasn't a model to follow, or had particularly good morals. But you can't help liking him.

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000108>Hannah 3</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.clipartcastle.com/anim3/shining_star.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/17/01 4:32:59 am

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 275</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Whoooooaaaaaaaaa

Firstly, I didn't see any obvious similarities b/w LoTr and HP except the genre of course.
Secondly, when authors make characters overtly moral, we tend to call them boring. The word 'prig' comes to mind. LoTr has lies and deception of a subtler kind. And they're 'understandable', so to say. Because it's all for the Ring. In HP, the moral kinks are, perhaps, inexcusable because the magnitude of the evil seems less, though personally I think Voldemort is as dangerous as Sauron.

It's been said a zillion times but What the hell, I&quot;ll say it again. Sam seems to forget that while the characters in LoTR are mature, the HP characters are teenagers.
Anyway, I like HP a lot, though I feel the craze is unwarranted.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 25</TD><TD><img src=http--images.neopets.com-images-newfirefaerie.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Whoooooaaaaaaaaa

But even the genre is different. Harry Potter, although magical, is very human. 'Magical realism' or something (did I already say that?) when although there IS magic it's very believable. Not Tolkien at all. They're just different types.

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 56</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:you forgot something

Pippin IS a tween -in hobbit years- remember 33 is coming of age to hobbits.And mcwFrodo sure Frodo snapped at Sam and accused him of theft,but he did ask for forgiveness.As for Ron he held a grudge against Hermione and her cat-thats not exactly forgiving- and yes I think that HP should apologize to Colin.Because Colin cant help his admeration for Harry and Harry should'nt act like he does towrds Colin just cause he bugs him,Sam was'nt bugging Frodo and yes Frodo lost his head for a minute but he did apologize.Sam WAS NOT Frodo's BF when they left The Shire,he became his BF during the time they were in Mordor.And Frodo had to lie about his name and about dissapearing because HE HAD ENEMIES AT BREE -dont forget Bill ferney- he had to protect his name and he wanted to leave the shire quietly,Frodo did a darn bad job too.Merry knew immidiatley,and HP was either a good lier on the fact of the maraduers map-his life was'nt indanger when he told that whooper-or else Snape was an idiot -which I dont think he was-.As for Sam chucking apples at Ferney,DONT compare Sam with HP,words hurt alot more than apples,and Sam was'nt chucking apples at Ferney,he chucked ONE apple at him and he deserved it.But I wanna ask you guys a small question?What do you think of people that dont like HP because he's a wizard?I think not liking HP because he's a wizard is toatally ludicrous,tell me what you think.-this is to agrue or agree on another HP topic that LOTR can added into gandalf is a wizard after all-.
Samwise of the shire
PS hannah the LOTR charecters are human too,they just act better

</p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 27</TD><TD><img src=http--images.neopets.com-images-newfirefaerie.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:you forgot something

I meant 'human' literally, they are dwarves, elves, hobbits, ents and maia and so on - even the men are very different.
Are you saying that being a good liar makes him bad? I say it is pathetic that Frodo's life was in danger and he couldn't even save it because it meant lying.
And where specifically are you talking about when you say Harry lied about the map? Oh, I know he does, but where does he lie and convince Snape? In book 3 when the map insulted Snape? But a teacher was covering up for him, remember. Snape was not convinced, but couldn't argue further.

Just where does Harry act in a wrong way to Colin? Oh, he's always irritated by him, of course, but I don't recollect him doing anything really bad.

Yes, he became his best friend in Mordor, and unless there's something really wrong with me it was in MORDOR that he apologised to Sam!

Also, my life is not in danger when I tell a teacher that I 'forgot' my homework, but to a child such things are important. I mean, everyone has told an occasional lie. What OF it?

Finally, I need references. This is going to sound like I didn't read the books preperly, but I just never read it thinking 'Oh, that was mean of Harry.' Doesn't Malfoy deserve it when Harry curses him?
Who are you to say 'don't compare'? That's what the whole topic is about.

I agree that it is silly that people dislike wizards...


~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 289</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:you forgot something

Actually, HP and LotR aren't just in different genres, they're aimed at entirely different audiences. The Lord of the Rings, with it's huge scope and majesty, is an ADULT'S book. HP is a KID'S book. Of course the characters are going to behave differently.

Sam, can you give me an example of a kid's book where all the good guys have perfect morals? Not the LotR, a kid's book. It seems rather unfair on J K Rowling to have her work criticised just because it's not at the level of the LotR. Of course it isn't. Different audiences, different levels.

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 276</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:you forgot something

Hannah- when I said HP and LoTR are the same genre, I was referring to the fact that they're both fantasy. Agreed, LoTR is far subtler as compared to the rather abracadabra HP.
I agree with Z about the fact that Tolkien and Rowling's work is aimed at separate audiences. That's not to say of course, that a person can't enjoy both. I just think that one can't expect HP and LoTR readers to agree on everything, specially morals.


What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 691</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:you forgot something

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> As for Ron he held a grudge against Hermione<hr></blockquote>
Sam had a grudge against Gollum, and Gollum never even did anything to them. The doing only came after Sam spited him more than once.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 28</TD><TD><img src=http--images.neopets.com-images-newfirefaerie.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:you forgot something

Thank you, everyone! (How nice for me to have experienced debaters on my side... <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":p"> )

Ron, also, had REASON for a grudge. How would Sam behave if Frodo hurt Bill? (As Frodo has no pet, I'll have to use that...)

And yes, they are both fantasy, so you're right, Lorien Wanderer. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 59</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:Hannah hello gollum tried to kill sam and frodo

Gollum definatly tried to do something to Frodo and Sam he tried to kill him by trapping them with Shelob.And I havent read HP for a couple of months -after my mom told me not to re read them cause of the contents-I'm just waiting for the fifth book to come out-and I dont know that I will read it I might-.And as for perfect morals?THE HOBBIT Duhhhh -oh yeah sure thorin holds a grudge against Bilbo but He asks for forgiveness when he dies-.that was a childs book.And Hermione is a &quot;good guy&quot; so Ron should'nt hold a grudge against her,Gollum on the otherhand is a bad guy -which a lot of people on the forum seem to forget- so I think it makes more sense.
samwise of the shire
Ps.was the tongue on the top of your post supposed to be insulting?If so it has worked efficiantly.and Ron did not as explained above Hermione was a good guy.

</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 701</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Hannah hello gollum tried to kill sam and frodo

As I said, the &quot;doing&quot; (feeding the hobbits to shelob) only came after Gollum was mistreated by Sam.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 296</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Hannah hello gollum tried to kill sam and frodo

What, so it's okay to hold a grudge against someone you don't like, such a Gollum? (That's very circular reasoning, in my opnion, and certainly not an example of the Christian morality you believe Harry Potter should display.)

</p>

[Sarah Glaze]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 1</TD><TD><img src=http://www.chickpages.com/fanland/mischiefsdollys/images/septspirit.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Hannah hello gollum tried to kill sam and frodo

After reading all that, I'd like to say. No, LotR is not a kid's book.
And, the book was written ages ago when kids were not rebelious and obeyed their parents.
JK is NOT!!! JRRT. They are completely different and therefore write and think differently. So what if she used mythological creatures? TOLKEIN DID NOT CREATE THEM!!!!!!! Her books were NOT influenced by him! How could she copy his ideas if she hadn't read his books?
*takes a deep breath and waits to be beaten down*

<TABLE STYLE="filter:glow(color=blue, strength=glow)"> <TR><TD><center> ~*Sarah*~All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wonder are lost
The old that is strong does not wither
Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes, a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be the blade that was broken
The crownless again shall be king.
-Strider, The Lord of the Rings</TABLE> </p>[i]

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 61</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:Okay,I'm trying to stay calm and composed

Welcome to the Barrow-downs Sarah,hope you enjoy posting here, and I need to apologize for somethings#1 not making clear the real thing that ticks me off about HP -Actually I figured it out yesterday,so I did'nt think about the real reason I started this argument-and for acting like an idiot.The real reason-as I figured out yesterday-I dont like HP is because it degenerates Christians in that well lookit the Dursleys,they are against magic of anytype-now even though I'm a Christian,I still read books that have wizards int hem so what makes HP different?-and in the Bible God states that all magic is wrong especially the type of magic that HP does-ex:divination,curses-.Now I know that Gandalf is a wizard but -and I say but hard- Gandalf is a christ figure,he comes down to help men,he leads men,he dies for the fellowship,and rises again,and Tolkien WAS a Christian-lookit Frodo he saves a world he only knows in legends, and is humble,loving,caring and yet strict and accusing when he needs to be and he also carries a burden-.Well to get back to the topic,the Dursleys are big blundering oafs that are cruel,stupid and mean hearted,and their against magic and so are alot of Christians,so it's sort of like saying anyone who's against magic-like some Christias-are stupid cruel oafs that have no idea whats going on,and has anyone noticed what Malfoy wears to the yule ball in the fourth book?A long black robe with a high collar...a vicars garb-a vicar is an episcipalon priest- and it makes Malfoy look like an idiot not to make fun of Christians but to make fun of Malfoy...as if being a Christian makes you a fool.But why does Malfoy wear an episcipalon robe he's not episcipalon?
And has anyone noticed all the death portents in HP?
Ghosts,Padfoot-a padfoot in celtic lore is a death portent why does a goodguy use a death name for a nick name?-the sapping of Ginny's soul,the Dementors-who still remind me of the black riders-,the sacrafice of the unicorn just to name a few.But think about it,okay-and please dont try to say LOTR is also full of death lookit Boromiror or something else like that.Of course it is but the death is a part of the badguys side of things not the good guys and theres always a solution to a problem all the charecters have to do is think about it Ex:Sam when he thinks Frodo is dead, he takes the ring after thinking a bit-.
And Burrahobbit,thinK Gollum was a BG and he could never be good again -even if he was once-Gollum had a place and that was to be evil and to fall in to the cracks of doom with the ring a -horrible death I agree-.
And Hannah was that tongue at the top of your last post supposed to insult?If so Icongradulate you it worked very well.If not well I'm just being stupid so ignore me ok,can we have a truce?
And Sarah like I said before welcome to the Barrow downs and dont worry all that happens here is arguing the folks here dont cut down, we just debate and if there's any name calling it's not here,Hey who's your fav.chareter?Mine's....have you guessed it's Sam<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">
well gotta see whats goin on
Samwise


</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 704</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Okay,I'm trying to stay calm and composed

As I've said before, Gollum almost turned good at several points (because of Frodo's kindness), but every time Sam pushed him back to the dark side.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Hannah 3]

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End!

OK. A lot of points to make. Firstly, no the tongue was not supposed to be insulting. In Hogwarts, people could take a joke! (In case I haven't told you yet, my 'Hannah 3' was a character who went to a wonderful 'hogwarts'. So I am very feircely defending Harry <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> )

Secondly, don't worry, Sarah won't be put off by the debate, she was my best friend at Hogwarts and that's the reason she came.

Thirdly, as I am jewish myself, and have recently been arguing with the KKK about how that does not make me bad, I am not about to get into a religious discussion here. I'm sick of them.

And now... the debate itself...
Sam was mean to Gollum right from the beginning. The fact that he tried to kill them afterwards has nothing to do with it, exceot to prove how wrong Sam's behavior was.
I can think of plenty of childrens books with morals - Little Women, for one - but the characters slip up, make mistakes. You're never going to convince me that HP is without morals.
Since most of your second post is ground I'm not about to get mixed up in, I can't reply to anything in it except yes, we'll have a truce - most of this argument has felt very irrational and silly, and besides, like I say, being a reform jew I don't want to get into discussions about christianity.
Yes, Hermione is a good character. So? It's right to hold grudges against bad people and not bad people? She did something that he thought was wrong - alowed her pet to kill his. So when the bad guy does something good, you're not allowed to make him better still by being nice? And when a good guy does something bad, you're not allowed to blame them because on the whole they're good? Read Jane Eyre, what Helen Burns says - 'Savages hold that doctrine, but Christians disown it' - when Jane says she has a right to hate her aunt, because her aunt is bad.
If you call Christianity holding a grudge against Gollum before he actually DID something, I don't. Not that I would know.. I'm out of my depth. So this is the end. Unless you bring in more HP/JRRT debates.

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Zoe]

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Posts: 297</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Okay,I'm trying to stay calm and composed

I can't believe I'm spending so much time on this topic <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> :

1. anyone who could possibly mistake the Dursleys for Xians needs their heads checked. Agreement on one SMALL issue doesn't mean much at all.

2. a long black robe with a high collar is a draclua suit, not a vicar's garb. For one, unless Church traditions as you know them are drasticly different to Church traditions as I know them, vicars wear all sorts of colours, and have a WHITE garment over the top of their ordinary clothes. (I'm presuming Church of England traditions are similar to Australian Anglican ones (same basis), and that if Rowling wished to mock the Church, she would mock that.)

3. Padfoot- Reference to walking softly, I'd say. Where did you get the Celtic link from?

</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:that was hard to figure out

but I got through.Whoaa good points,especially Hannahs good job,but what I'm saying is that HP charecters hold grudges and all sort of stuff all the time-ok ok sure Hermione and Ron become friends again and all-but once the charecters are out of trouble they get back into trouble IMMEDIATLY after getting out of the previous trouble.Make sense?And another thing why are'nt there more severe punishments at Hogwarts?Seriously I thing that Snape has the right idea-Ok people are'nt gonna like me for that one-and yes Malfoy DOES wear a vicars robe-I'll have'ta find the letter or article that Mom downloaded and read about HP and post some quotes on here.-Burra. you REALLY like Gollum dont you?I'm gonna have to give you the Scrolls Of Orthanc website,the guy who runs it
answers questions,and one of the ones I asked was &quot;if he had lived could Gollum been free of the lust of the ring&quot;?And it almost made me cry,that poor pathetic creature doomed to die either way,#1 the way he didi it:Frodo claimed the ring and would never give it up,and Gollums lust for the ring over came Frodo's and ...well we all know what happened.#2 if he HAD turned good then Gollum would have pittied Frodo and then taking the ring by force he would have cast himself into the cracks of doom to save Frodo,but he didnt and I think that the books are more exiting with the first way of getting rid of the ring instead of the second.Dont you-although it is discusting either way yuck-?And on the gollum issue,I think that Gollum started to hate Frodo when he had the debate on wether or not to take the ring,and he was going to kill Frodo if Sam had'nt started to &quot;wake up&quot;and that one part where Frodo has to speak sharply to him to get him moving,thats when he started lapsing into his precious mode again,so it was'nt all Sams fault.
Hannah I was talking to everyone in general about the HP christian thing,not just you and if you dont want to talk about it what do you sugjest we talk about-I dont want to go into the copy thing again-?
The cooled down
sam
ps I had all these points and stuff and I forgot them that stinks bad

</p>

[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:that was hard to figure out

*Splutter*
Why aren't there more severe punishments???
OK, that took me by surprise. If you want them to go back to Filch's thumbscrews, I don't think anyone'll agree with you...
This answering-questions person is no authority. Only Tolkien could answer a question like that, and otherwise it's a matter of opinion. I, at least, think Sam should have tried. He couldn't know, (as Aslan would say) what would have happened. If he'd been a perfect character, that's what should have happened. He's not, so I don't blame him, but the way you talk makes it sound like Sam should have been MUCH nicer to Gollum.
Yes, they immmediately break friends because something happens again - so? If Scabbers had 'died' a month later and till then they'd stayed friends, would that make a difference?
I think, actually, I'd have much prefered Gollum to kill himself. I really, really like Gollum. I want him to die well.
I have to go, but I finally say, please show me that article when you find it, OK?


~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:okay okay

I'll try to find it but my Mom sort of fried the puter and might have lost it when she fried it,ah were does it sound like Sam should have been nicer in my post?Tell me k<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> um Hannah you have no idea who this guy is do you?He read tolkiens letters and can answer anything you ask,unfortunatleyI have'nt been on his website recently but when I do I'll tell you where to go.I dont think that torture is the right answer,I said SNAPE had the right idea about things not FILCH what I meant was HP should be at least expelled for a month or something like that,his heroics indanger hogwarts-he does'nt tell Dumbledore about tom rddles diary fer duhhh-and dont help the school

</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 711</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:that was hard to figure out

Yes, I do like Gollum, and what the guy at Scrolls of Orthanc says doesn't matter. Tolkien says in Letters that Gollum would have become good if not for Sam's constant nastiness.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000062>burrahobbit</A> at: 3/23/01 8:13:21 pm

[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:okay okay

You might be calming down, but I'm not <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

Filch, Snape, both evil, same difference
Well, not quite, but anyway. Just what did Harry do to deserve being expelled? (If it's for a month it's suspension, but anyway...) Not tell Dumbledore about the diary. How was he supposed to know that Tom Riddle was evil? If he'd told Dumbledore, he thought that meant Hagrid in trouble. And Hagrid already WAS in trouble.
Also, do you call saving a pupil's life, and helping with all the others that were Petrified, not helping the school? Then what IS helping the school?
No, I have no idea who this guy is and I stick to the idea that it's personal opinion only w/ Gollum. I really like Gollum. Besides, what about the second ending? He kills himself to help Frodo. He's good in that one.

Not Sam - You're not critisizing the L.R. - but you made it sound like Ron shouldn't even be allowed to get mad at Hermione. I'm translating that into all characters should be forgiving and so on, meaning SAM.

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:okay okay okay okay sue me

HELLO WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!Sam had more sense not to trust Gollum,then Frodo had to trust the stinker,Sam knew that Gollum was evil,-and I dont think that evil can be forgiven-he knew at any rate that Gollum was up to something-oh sure Frodo had a burden and all,and that might result in his mixing up on the Gollum thing-.And where in the heck in Tolkiens letters does it say that Gollum could have been good?and burra I think that Gollum started to mistrust Frodo when Frodo leads him to Faramir,and he could've murdered Frodo if SAM had'nt *woken up*notice:MURDERED Gollum was a murderer he killed his cousin-and dont say it was the ring's influence,Did it work that fast on Frodo,or on Sam or on any other bearer? I dont think so-for the stinking thing.And know that I've blown some steamlets get back to the real subject.AHH Hannah one thing,what does HP's not doing anything do?It gets more of his peers turned into solid rock,if I had been HP I wold have told Dumbledor something about the diary or answered &quot;yes sir I think I know something&quot;but did HP?noo he had to go and do something that could have cost him his LIFE and lots of good that would have been to the school and to get to the point of saving his friends what did he do?He STOLE-something that should have expelled him for life-from a teachers office-okay he did'nt steal Hermione did but he came up with the idea-and that is something I would'nt wanta hero to have on his record.
The throughly outraged
Sam

</p>

[Zoe]

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Posts: 300</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:okay okay okay okay sue me

I'm getting sick of saying this:

Just because Gollum is &quot;bad&quot; doesn't make it alright for Sam/Frodo/whoever to mistreat him. Especially not according to the Christian principles you think should be applied to Harry Potter. After all, Jesus hung around with prostitutes, tax collectors and criminals, the real-life &quot;Gollums&quot;. If you are so eager to &quot;nice-ify&quot; harry potter, because it's not as good as the LotR, perhaps you should look at the morals of Sam again.



</p>

[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:okay okay okay okay sue me

Zoe has said all I need about Gollum.

As to Harry - the diary told him that one of his best friends had opened the thing. Would you be so happy to tell the headmaster, 'I think my best friend opened the chamber'? Secondly, I know it doesn't look too good, but If he hadn't gone himself, it would have been no use. You KNOW that. What he did to get in and find out about it might not have been the most moral things he could do, but they are entirely necessary.

I'm tired of this argument...

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Sarah Glaze]

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Re: Re:okay okay okay okay sue me

Oh! For *beep* sake!
Okay okay! Harry's THIRTEEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm nearly 13 and if i was faced with that situation I wouldn't have told Dumbledore. Anyway, how would the story have worked out if Harry had done all the things you wanted him to? JK cant please every Blimmin' person on this planet! He's a bloody adolescent! He's supposed to be immature and un-adultish! Geez!

(*blows up* feeling better now)

<TABLE STYLE="filter:glow(color=blue, strength=glow)"> <TR><TD><center> ~*Sarah*~All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wonder are lost
The old that is strong does not wither
Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes, a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be the blade that was broken
The crownless again shall be king.
-Strider, The Lord of the Rings</TABLE> </p>[i]

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 72</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:right that does it.

As you might not know I'm bloody thirteen and I behave better than HP and lookit twelve is h-e- double hockey sticks compared to thirteen,and so if Harry Potter is going to act like a bloody adolesent it should have been when he was twelve-or fouteen seeing as we girls mature faster-not when he was thirteen-oh bye the way he does act like a bloody adolesent when He is twelve forgot that forgive me-,and most teens are'nt reballious like HP, oh nother thing KIDS BOOKS would you let a thir dgrader read the fourth harry potter book?I would'nt you know why? Because lookit at all the blamed sorcery goin on in the thing,Lord Voldemort comes back to life-another stab at christianity- by SORCERY I mean I didi'nt read that chapter before I went to sleep,It toatally scared me in the middle of the daytime,nother question:Have any Harry Potter charecters made you want to be like them?What I mean is this, Have any HP charecters attitudes make you want to be like them?Understandble?Hannah I sort of agree with you on the fact that this is a tiring subject-uses up all my puter time as well-so maybe it'd be best if we gave up on this subject or something like that.Majority vote anyone?
Samwise of the Shire
Ps you remind me of Gimli when the hunters in the two towers find the hobbits again-only he didi'nt swear<img src=biggrin.gif ALT=":D">

</p>

[Elenanna]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Re:right that does it.

Just wondering, did you have Harry's upbringing? Did you lose your mum and dad when you were young and have to live with people who hated you?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
and so if Harry Potter is going to act like a bloody adolesent it should have been when he was twelve-or fouteen seeing as we girls mature faster-not when he was thirteen-
<hr></blockquote>

And what's that supposed to mean?!! He can act like an adolescent when he's twelve or fourteen and not thirteen? JKR had absolutely no intention of 'making a stab' at Christianity, and of course Voldemort used Sorcery to get a body, he's a WIZARD!!! Note: Voldemort did not 'come back to life' as he was never dead.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Because lookit at all the blamed sorcery goin on in the thing
<hr></blockquote>

As I said: It's a series of books <u>about wizards</u> Of course it's going to have sorcery in it!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
What I mean is this, Have any HP charecters attitudes make you want to be like them?
<hr></blockquote>

Yes, I like Hagrid, because of his kind nature and love of animals, he will never betray the animals, as he considers them his friends, even though it puts himself in trouble. I like Harry because he is not proud, he always tries to support his friends and his house. I like more, but I'm not going to put them here. Anything I've missed?

Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000112>Elenanna</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/white_star.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/26/01 9:49:28 pm

[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:right that does it.

Sorry I posted twice by accident - ignore this

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000108>Hannah 3</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.clipartcastle.com/anim3/shining_star.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/27/01 11:19:05 am

[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:right that does it.

JK Rowling wrote the first book for children 9+, and meant there to be a book a year, so the readers grow up with Harry Potter. Not for a seven year old, excited by the way everyone talks about it and so on, to read all the books at once and have nightmares for a month. You can't blame her on that one.
Yes, she read the books to her daughter when the girl was seven - but she said 'seven is really pushing it', and after all, this is her daughter - children at school obviously talked to her about the next book, does she know anything about it, is her mum really JKR, and so on and so on. Besides, she was reading it with her daughter, supporting her and trying not to scare her badly - her daughter cried at one point, when Harry sees his 'smoke' parents, but then, JK cried when she wrote it.

Yes, understandable question. So skipping Harry and Hagrid which Elenanna kindly did for me, I'll say Hermione totally reminded me of me about that SPEW thing - I'm into animal rights. And I would like to be as fearless as she is about them.
And Lupin is a wonderful character, too. Resigned so quietly, acceptingly - sticks up for Neville right in the beginning - overall so nice.
Also, I agree that it is ridiculous to say when Harry is allowed to be an adolesent and when he isn't.

I think you'll find that very few, if anyone, was against HP in this topic, except you, Samwise - but go ahead, start a poll and get it over with <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Sarah Glaze]

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Re: Re:right that does it.

*frowns*I agree with all that and *smirk* How do you think the poll would turn out? Incase your blind, none of us are on your side *laughs at you*

(*grin* What a nice compliment. NOT!<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> neway.Do you have ICQ? or AIM?)

<TABLE STYLE="filter:glow(color=blue, strength=glow)"> <TR><TD><center> ~*Sarah*~All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wonder are lost
The old that is strong does not wither
Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes, a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be the blade that was broken
The crownless again shall be king.
-Strider, The Lord of the Rings</TABLE> </p>[i]Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000256>Sarah Glaze</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.harrythecat.com/Graphics/k/angel12.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/27/01 10:21:28 am

[Voronwe]

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Re: Re:right that does it.

Excuse the double post - see below.



-Voronwë
<font size="2">"For Aldarion had become enamoured of the Great Sea, and of a ship riding there alone without sight of land, borne by the winds with foam at its throat to coasts and havens unguessed; and that love and desire never left him until his life's end."</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000143>Voronwe</A> at: 3/27/01 10:11:14 am

[Voronwe]

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Re: Re:right that does it.

I hope you don't mind if I toss in my opinion on this.

I have read all four Harry Potter books, and, despite them being written for children, I enjoyed them. I didn't notice any strong similarities to Tolkien at all. In fact, I'd go as far to say that Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings are two completely different types of book. The Lord of the Rings is an epic told on a huge scale, while Harry Potter is a children's story, told on a personal level. This doesn't make Harry Potter better or worse than the Lord of the Rings. They cannot be compared.

I didn't see any derogatory references to Christianity, and I find it hard to understand why an author such as JK Rowling would want to include such things in her books.

What made Harry Potter such immensely popular children's books? They are exciting and, most importantly, they are set in the real world - with the key difference of magic. The characters have real faults and real emotions. They aren't meant to be perfect role models - they're meant to be real, believable people. If all the main characters in Harry Potter had been flawless, I would probably have put the book down after the first few chapters.


-Voronwë
<font size="2">"For Aldarion had become enamoured of the Great Sea, and of a ship riding there alone without sight of land, borne by the winds with foam at its throat to coasts and havens unguessed; and that love and desire never left him until his life's end."</p>

[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:right that does it.

*Shocked* Sarah!

Voronwe, I agree with that. Otherwise, nothing to say... I actually came to say, Sarah, if you're going to talk like that I'd rather you never posted!

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Grey Fool]

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Welcome me back later. I sense some nonsense afoot

Hello.
As I said, you can welcome me back later.

First, you have blatantly ripped off the name of Samwise Gamgee from a hitherto notorious source, so to speak of plagiarism is either utterly blind or incredibly self-indulgent.

Second, what a shame you couldn't read the Harry Potter books and enjoy them for what they are, rather than
spending loads of time scouring for Tolkien comparisons.

Third, JK Rowling is no more a rip-off artist than Tolkien; both inadvertently became famous for doing what they love, what's more they both began writing for their children, in an effort to nourish their love of stories, nothing more. Their success was entirely due to their individual skill and consistency.

I hereby rubbish your point altogether.

Well at least you got yourself noticed, however preposterous your claim; all you need to do now is
post something interesting. Congratulations for getting
so many responses <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 78</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:ninny hammers and noddles

What in the heck do you think that Sam would do if he were here?I really think he would'nt agree with Harry Potter and I APOLOGIZED for acting like an idiot so I ask you again forgive me for acting like an idiot Is that good enough for you? Actually Hannah I have no idea how to set up a poll so maybe anyone who's in favor say &quot;aye&quot; if not in favor say &quot;nope&quot;.Grey fool do you think that just cause I'm comparing HP with LOTR NOW that I did'nt like them before?HECK NO!!!!! As a matter of fact I could'nt wait for my G-ma to give me the next book,I read the books two or three times so dont think that just cause I'm arguing against Harry Potter that I did'nt like him before hand, and what do you sugjest I do about my name if you think I should change it?I still would pick a hobbits name or a hero in LOTR.Sarah I relized that you all hate my guts for not liking Harry Potter and frankly I dont care.
the in a bad mood
Samwise of the shire

</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 304</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:ninny hammers and noddles

{I apoligise if this wasn't adressed to me, but...)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I relized that you all hate my guts for not liking Harry Potter<hr></blockquote>
I would like to think that you didn't consider me to be so petty as to hate someone because I don't agree with them. In fact, if I did, I would be a hypocrite. Sam - I may not agree with you, but I don't hate you at all. Friends? <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

BTW: &quot;ninny hammers and noddles&quot;? Sounds like something the DLF from Prince Caspian would say. Is it? <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 286</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:ninny hammers and noddles

Absolutely in agreement with Zoe. Everyone's different. Your hating HP is hardly reason enough for us to hate you.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Sarah of Last Hope]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 1</TD><TD><img src=http://www.darkbluelight.com/dolls/i%20made/6.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:ninny hammers and noddles

Oh I dont hate u! I just adore arguing!

~*~Sarah~*~Of Ye Olde Times</p>

[Hannah 3]

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Posts: 40</TD><TD><img src=http://www.durmstrang2k.homestead.com/files/aeris.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:ninny hammers and noddles

Samwise - of course we don't hate you, we just disagree with you. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">
And you mustn't blame the Grey Fool for thinking that since you first read it you've been comparing it to Tolkien - because if you look back on the way you argued, you were always saying how immoral it was, even not compared to Tolkien. It's unsurprising that people assume that you've always thought the same thing. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">
And in case anyone was confused, Sarah Glaze = Sarah of Last Hope.

((Zoe - DLF? Who's the DLF? *Thinking hard*
Oh him! Dear little friend... <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> Yes, it does sound like him. Of course, I haven't read the books in a while... <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":/"> ))



~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 305</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:ninny hammers and noddles

Actually, I couldn't remember his real name, and couldn't be bothered looking it up... <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

</p>

[KayQy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 187</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:ninny hammers and noddles

I think everyone's said most of what I wanted to say, so just a few points to be cleared up:

1. When did you start having problems with the HP books, then, if you liked them at first? (just curious)

2. Is the poll you're calling for to see who agrees/disagrees with you, or who wants to drop the thread?

p.s. My sister read the 4th HP book when she was 9, and she doesn't seem to be seriously traumatized in any way, though I could ask her opinion on their morality if you like.

Truth will outlast both fact and fiction.</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 79</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

favorite saying,besides numbskull)Trumpkin is the dwarf's name, He's the funniest charecter in Prince Caspian, but Lewis DID copy Tolkien- my Mom told me that- and JRRT was Not at all happy about it, I mean My Mom read Lewis' trilogy and Merlin came from the line of wizards the Gandalf came from,and Lewis'angels are called elder-sound familiar?- But thats in Lewis' trilogy. And thanks you guys, did you know that youre the first friends I have on this forum-Besides Gilthalion and thats just 'cause we're both christians-?
Oh in answer to your questions KQ I first started having an iffey feeling about HP when I realized how disobedient HP is,but then My Mom read an article -that I cant find- about the demantors -that suck the soul out of people -she was like &quot;the books have that in them?&quot;- and the voldemort part in The Goblet of Fire and stuff so I guess it's sort of Parential iffiness, But I got this Faery enciclopidia out of the library and read an article about PADFOOTS:Large black dogs that follow a person whos gonna die quietly, so why should a good guy use a name used for a death omen?Oh as for the wormtounge wormtail thing I thought of something&quot;good masster kind masster&quot; &quot; oh master have'nt I been a good Pet?&quot;notice the Master thing Peter used it and guess who else used the master for wheddling? Gollum and so I saw a simalaritie there.Well I gotta sign on this toatally awsome christian website so I gotta go
samwise of the shire
Ps the poll was to see if anyone wanted to drop the HP argument, but we can keep this open just to have a good excuse for arguing, or just a place we could talk



</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 293</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

This is a bit like when all those paranoid parents were running around saying Rowling's a racist and there's evil witchcraft in the books and the Rowling fans came in full force and fought back. Major arguements with both sides convinced that they're right.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 308</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

Lewis' trilogy? Trilogy? What trilogy?

Or do you mean the Chronicles of Narnia? I'm sure they *are* similar to Tolkien, but then, the Narnia books have more allusions (literary and otherwise) than any other children's books I've ever read, so they're bound to be similar to a lot of things, deliberately. (No, allusion isn't copying. Let's set this straight before the argument flares up... <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> )

</p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 42</TD><TD><img src=http://www.durmstrang2k.homestead.com/files/aeris.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

Chronicles of Narnia isn't a trilogy... *confused*
*Grins* My sister called it an allegory. (If you don't know what that, is, read 'little men' or look it up in a dictionary - I can't give a good definition <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> ) Allegory of the new testament. With Aslan = Jesus and Emperor over the sea = God, and the children disciplines. Or something like that. Which I doubt, but that might just be my ignorance...
(And allegory is also not copying. it's like... *Tries to think of a good example*... like George Orwell's Animal farm is an allegory of some war.)

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 310</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

The Chronicles of Narnia are allegorical, yes, but they aren't pure allegory. Purely allegorical books are ones where everything, or very nearly everything, intentionally links back to one concept. It's like a drawn-out metaphor, I guess. An example of 'pure' allegory would be Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress. Whereas the Chronicles of Narnia are only allegorical in parts - not every details links back to the Bible, deliberately or no.

</p>

[KayQy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 189</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

I think sam is talking about some other Lewis novels, not Narnia, but I can't remember their title and I never read them myself, so I can't give my opinion there. And yeah, Narnia is definitely allegorical or metaphorical of the Bible. But don't let it scare you away. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

Truth will outlast both fact and fiction.</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 719</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Samwise: Lewis'angels are called elder-sound familiar?<hr></blockquote>
This is among the most idiotic things I've ever read. So what if he called them elders? You may not be aware of this, but elder is a word in the english language. As in &quot;respect your elders.&quot; I noticed the similarity between the two words some time ago, but it really isn't anything more than that.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 721</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/dailynews/book_burning010326.htmlabcnews.go.com/sections/u...10326.html</a>

March 26 — The congregation of a church in suburban Pittsburgh gathered around a bonfire Sunday night to burn Harry Potter books, Disney videos, rock CDs and literature from other religions, purging their lives of things they felt stood between them and their faith.



&quot;Our purpose comes out of the Bible,&quot; the Rev. George Bender of the Harvest Assembly of God Church in Butler County. &quot;We read in the Bible how people, after they received Jesus Christ as their savior, took things out of their homes and burned them. They [the members of the congregation] received Christ and they willingly did this.&quot;
The church has a regular Sunday evening service, which does not include a bonfire. But this week the congregation wanted to do a little more, and 35 people brought books, CDs and tapes that they felt were not in keeping with their faith.

&quot;We did it in the open so that people would ask why,&quot; Bender said, adding that the church has not asked that any of the material they burned be banned from bookstores or libraries, and that even among the congregation there was no pressure to participate.

He pointed out that just one-third of the congregation brought things to burn. He said those who participated included a mix of new and longtime members of the church.

&quot;There's no such thing as a crusade to deal with other people's things. That's their business,&quot; he said. &quot;We believe in the First Amendment, the Second Amendment, and the First Commandment and Second Commandment.&quot;

Animated videos such as Pinnochio and Hercules were also among the items thrown in the fire, which also included Pearl Jam and Black Sabbath CDs, and pamphlets from Jehovah's Witnesses.


‘Message Is Clear’

The Harry Potter books, so popular with children and parents, have drawn fire from religious leaders before for their depiction of a boy who consorts with wizards and uses magic.

&quot;We believe that Harry Potter promotes sorcery, witchcraft-type things, the paranormal, things that are against God,&quot; Bender said. &quot;That is really bad.&quot;

A spokeswoman for Scholastic, the publisher of the books, said they are more about a child who feels powerless in the world understanding that he can take some control of his life. She said the message sent by burning books is more dangerous than any fable about sorcery could be.

&quot;I think burning books is shameful,&quot; Scholastic spokeswoman Judy Corman said. &quot;The message is very clear by inference. I think he's saying something very strong.&quot;



What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Sarah Glaze]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 4</TD><TD><img src=http://www.chickpages.com/fanland/mischiefsdollys/images/doll33a.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

I think that's just stupid. I'm sorry but burning books that are FICTIONAL! If they didn't like them then why buy them?

<TABLE STYLE="filter:glow(color=red, strength=glow)"> <TR><TD><center> <a href=pub33.ezboard.com/bsarahshouse> ~*~Sarah~*~</a> All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wonder are lost
The old that is strong does not wither
Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes, a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be the blade that was broken
The crownless again shall be king.
-Strider, The Lord of the Rings</TABLE> </p>[i]

[KM Tinuviel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 12</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Book burning

Hitler also burned books in the name of purity and religion.

</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 80</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: That is stupid

No one should ever burn another persons book, it's absolutly WRONG your thinking I'm a hypocrite probably but -sure the sorcery can get a little creepy at times and if taken to seriously can lead to things that lead to witchcraft and all- why did'nt they burn LOTR books? Cause its got a wizard in them-if they did I would be sooooo ticked I mean this pastor hello wake up man(I mean the pastor)-they burned them because of the sorcery, not becuase Harry Potter was disobedient- okay I would'nt burn a book for any reason I just would'nt read them as much as I did-,the group probably did'nt think twice about one o the greatest thing God wants us to do,to OBEY him and those above us, as a matter of fact sorcery goes against God's commands so that could be counted as disobedience, Please dont think I'm preaching at you I'm just stating what I believe so just please dont hold it against me k? But I defiantly think that Burning books is absolutly WRONG.
Oh nother thing Harry Potter is aimed at kids-3 grade and older-and so these kids see Harry Potter doing stuff he should'nt so they Might think it's okay to do it.
Samwise Gamgee
Ps. I meant ELDAR not elder sorry bout that Burra.I trip over my feet and in the process I put them in my mouth so forgive that little mistake but I swear that Lewis had a trilogy, I forgot what it was but there was alot in common with LOTR-well from what my Mom tells me-,Oh what do you guys think of Dungeons and Dragons?-I dont play it as a matter of fact I'm against it, I just wanted to ask if you guys feel the same way-.Welcome to our fair forum KMT.

</p>

[KayQy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 191</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: That is stupid

OK, first off: Ever read Farhenheit 451? Now that's wrong. But this is not exactly the same thing. This seems more like a symbolic statement that they want to get rid of the things that keep them from God (in fact, I think they say that). Furthermore, please recall that this was completely voluntary. They're not trying to make anyone else's choice for them, they're just letting people know what their own choice is. Y'all're coming down on them like they're taking other people's books and burning them. Okay, I'm about to go into a sermon, so I'll just leave it there for here.

Re D&amp;D: I've never played the game, but I watched the cartoon, which isn't much different from any other fantasy cartoon. I think the problem people find with D&amp;D is that it can lead to other, darker things like Wicca or whatever, I don't know; and also that people get so caught up in it that it's their life. (Waitaminute! Anyone else seeing a disturbing parallel?!?<img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> )

Truth will outlast both fact and fiction.</p>

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 232</TD><TD><img src=http://www.bestanimations.com/Science/Biology/DNA/DNA-02.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Lewis's Trilogy

Lewis did write a Trilogy. It is called Space Trilogy. They are &quot;Out of the Silent Planet&quot;, &quot;Perelandra&quot;, and &quot;That Hideous Strength&quot;. Samwise referred to Merlin who is a character in one of the books. I enjoyed these books very much. Just wanted to clear that up even though I am a few posts late! <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=":D">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 312</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Lewis's Trilogy

Aha! If those books are what I think they are (which they may not be), that was a case of Tolkien writing a story/book (can't think what, though) about time travel, and C S Lewis writing one about space travel. Some kind of collaboration, I guess, though not really. It's somewhere in Humphrey Carpenter's biography of Tolkien. I'll look it up later.

"This sig is proudly quote-free." -Me.
(Also known as eoz, and now has a non-Tolkien forum, called http://pub57.ezboard.com/beverythingelse45161everything else</a>.) </p>

[Suldaledhel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Lewis's Trilogy

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;seeing as we girls mature faster&quot;<hr></blockquote>
From experience of being with females older and of the same age of myself, I thoroughly believe this pnly applies to physical aspects. I know many girls that have the maturity of some 8-9 year old males I know. Not saying this aplies to all, or anyone here, just stating my opinion.
(I also apologize for being so late on this point <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> )

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;We believe that Harry Potter promotes sorcery, witchcraft-type things, the paranormal, things that are against God,&quot;<hr></blockquote>
I do believe that is the most ignorant statement I have heard in a many long years (the last being practically the same as this example). It is not the members of the church's place to decide what is against God if what they are condemning has nothing to do with their faith! (I can see the music and other prime examples of anti-christian sentiment, but its examples like this that give birth to thse feelings!) This is why I tend to avoid christians in general, those ignorant lot that automatically associate anything slighty pagan with evil and devilry. Maybe, just maybe if they would take the time to learn just a tiny bit, and then (but this is a longshot) praps then one might see that all this sorcery and witchraft isnt as bad as one thought. But once again Im ranting and blowing off steam... so now with that last kernel of wisdom <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> I shall be off and on my way.

“I have been a fierce bull and a yellow buck. I have been a boat upon the sea. I have been the foam of water. I have been a drop in the air. I have journeyed as high as an eagle. I have been at the throne of the distributor. I have stood high upon the white hill. I was fluent before being gifted with speech. I have been teacher to all intelligences. I have singly built the tower of Nimrhod. I am the tetragrammaton. I am a wonder whose origin is not know, and I shall be until the day of doom upon the earth…” -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a> or telling stories at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> </p>

[The X Phial]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 71</TD><TD><img src=http://community.universitypride.com/cecilyanne/X-Files-01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Lewis's Trilogy

I am entering the fray simply to refute the idea that all Christians are mindless, ignorant, and hyper-conservative. I believe that you cannot judge a person as good, evil, or ignorant based on their beliefs. I have a great deal of respect for those who choose to live their spirituality, whether I agree that the God(s) or Goddess(es) they worship exist or not. I am a Christian, and I don't feel that I am ignorant or dismissive of other people's religions/spiritualities.

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[Suldaledhel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 293</TD><TD><img src=http://suldalpic.homestead.com/files/00004.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Lewis's Trilogy

I knew somelike this would come about, so I tried to phrase it, but phrasing is my lacking point. When I said ignorant, it was directed at those that automatically assume without any knowledge of that wich they are assuming to be true. Many of my best friends are Christian, and they are open minded indeed. I have nothing against Christians in general, just those that blindly assail those of other less understood faiths. Please I beg the forgiveness of anyone that feels offended by my above comments, for it was not (most likely) directed at anyone that I know of on this board. Keep in mind I myself was born and raised a Catholic... and I am not readily known to insult myself and my childhood friends.

“I have been a fierce bull and a yellow buck. I have been a boat upon the sea. I have been the foam of water. I have been a drop in the air. I have journeyed as high as an eagle. I have been at the throne of the distributor. I have stood high upon the white hill. I was fluent before being gifted with speech. I have been teacher to all intelligences. I have singly built the tower of Nimrhod. I am the tetragrammaton. I am a wonder whose origin is not know, and I shall be until the day of doom upon the earth…” -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a> or telling stories at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> </p>

[The X Phial]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 73</TD><TD><img src=http://community.universitypride.com/cecilyanne/X-Files-01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Lewis's Trilogy

No offence taken, at least not by me! I just felt the need to defend my own status as an intelligent person in a religon not known for its tolerance. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> I agree with you that there are some very ignorant religous people out there who use their beliefs to hurt and exclude others. They are as repugnant to me as they are to you, believe me! Anyway, don't worry about it and no one should have to feel afraid to post their opinions (as long as they are not directly hurtful to others).

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[Aldaron]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 58</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: That is stupid

I was more amused than angered at the burning of Harry Potter. Even more I was amazed that there was also the burning of CDs by Black Sabbath. Now what in the world was some member of this congregation doing with Black Sabbath albums? There's something to conjure.

</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 722</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: That is stupid

I have to agree with Aldaron. Those fundamentalists sure are sumthin else.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Balin999]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 261</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: That is stupid

yeah burning books and cds just sucks. many religions are/have been intolerant towards other religions/beliefs/opinions. there have even been wars just because of RELIGION!
can't there be enough tolerance so that everyone could get along with each other? can't a muslim live in peace with a christian?
well maybe this is a bit out of the topic but i just had to say that. thank you.

Behold the King of Moria!</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 86</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: This is getting over my short curly head

-I HAD to do that above comment- Hey no offense taken by me Sul, I mean I barley understood what you and x were gong on about I had to re-read the posts so I'm pretty numbskulled nothing gets into it and stays there.That really ticks me off,&quot;we dont want anything that hinders our belifs&quot;fer duhhh I mean they did'nt have to go to the extrime, just dont buy the stupid things-why are we talking about this?Why dont we go back to some spice-?Oh you know D&amp;D players have been known to go off into the blue-on some adventure as a halfling or half orc or elf or dwarf or wizard or real orc or a dunadane or a southener or something else-and never return?That is just plain creepy,no wait scary any more opinions on the role playing game known as D&amp;D?
Sam
Ps.X can I get your e-mail, mines sandhill@quixnet.net It might be nice to correspond with a fellow christian.Balin it's to bad that Muslims cant get along with Christians,I mean they burn churches, capture children,kill their parents,and then try to force the children into muslam and if they refuse they throw them on coals to burn,but I'm glad that these children who have died died for Jesus-well I mean not jumping up or down,but I'm PROUD they stood up for their faiths.- Hey Balin tolerance can go to far such as with witchcraft you know in the bible it says not to tolerate witches,mediums or anybody who do anything with spirits,spells,little diagram thingies,and stuff like that.*waiting for the cutting words*

</p>

[Balin999]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 262</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: This is getting over my short curly head

the part of your post that was about the muslims and taking away the children reminded me of the christians in australia. they also took away the children of the aboriginies and forced them into christianity.
well to tell the truth im not a friend of religion and especially the catholic church. i think that everyone can have his own beliefs and his own views and can believe in anything he/she wants, but i don't think that you need a church who tells you what to believe.
i mean there have been wars just because some people in high positions(on many sides) said that people who believed in other stuff were enemies and had to be killed.
i don't have words for something like that so i'd better shut up.

Behold the King of Moria!</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 724</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: This is getting over my short curly head

They did that in the Americas too. And probably Africa and Asia.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Balin999]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 264</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: This is getting over my short curly head

possible
kill all the white men!
bad joke, actually...

Behold the King of Moria!</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 91</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:Okay this is WAY over my short curly head

I did'nt say that deeds done by Christians are always good,but I guess that more people would've died in Ethiopia if world wide missions or other christian run missons had'nt given food,water and stuff like that to the people of Ethiopia,so it can go either way:sometimes Christians can go over board-I mean they could've visted the aborigeny clans instead of kidnapping their kids if they had gone for the older people then there would've been a bigger reformation of the aborigenies-but with out the help of the christian missions the Ethiopians would have died.
Anybody have any ideas about D&amp;D or the Harry Potter issue-we can continue with the religious argument if you want I dont care-. sam

</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 314</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Okay this is WAY over my short curly head

&quot;there would've been a bigger reformation of the aborigenies&quot;

The word &quot;reformation&quot; just pushed my Major Argument button.

The Australian Aborigines (and the people of the Torres Strait Islands) have lived in Australia for at least 40 000 years on their own and lived perfectly well. Suddenly, a bunch of Europeans come along and decide to take over, so there can be somewhere to put petty criminals.
Along with the Europeans came diseases the Aborigines had never encountered and were thus not immune to, and social problems such as excessive alcohol drinking.
The Aborigines never needed &quot;reformation&quot; - it's the white Australians who had problems.

"This sig is proudly quote-free." -Me.
(Also known as eoz, and now has a non-Tolkien forum, called http://pub57.ezboard.com/beverythingelse45161everything else</a>.) </p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 45</TD><TD><img src=http://www.durmstrang2k.homestead.com/files/aeris.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: This is getting over my short curly head

*waiting for the cutting words* ? They come!! <img src=mad.gif ALT=">:">

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Balin it's to bad that Muslims cant get along with Christians,I mean they burn churches, capture children,kill their parents,and then try to force the children into muslam and if they refuse they throw them on coals to burn<hr></blockquote>
Excuse me? Would you STOP talking like that!! I go to a multi-cultural school and my best friends are hindu, jain (similar to hindu but not as well known) and atheist. I'm jewish. And we could not care less. If only people like you were not quite so proud of their religion, this world would be a much better place!! Even Chrisyians don't agree with each other. Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other in england since ages ago. Isrel vs Palestine. Jewish vs everything else. Catholic vs Muslim, Muslim vs Hindu. I am sick of it. The 'standing up for their faith' that you are so proud of, Samwise, has killed thousands of people.

I dont want to speak of christians in such a generality as some others did. I don't believe that's right. I will say that the very religious, orthodox, God-will-burn-you-in-the-fires-of-hell atitude is NOT a good one. I mean, there are contradictions everyehere you turn.
I belive in no religion; in a God who does not care what I do and would never punish anyone, in reincarnation and quite a lot of other stuff. A mixture of religions. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> But I'm jewish, still...
I'm tired of this. Tired of arguing with people who dont listen. So my final note is: Read Conversations With God by Neale Donald Walsch, a very good, sensible book that I highly recommend, and I hope you'll take notice of that, though the kkk didn't. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> Especialy you, sam, and I'm hoping you won't let your mum say it's evil or whatever.

Oh, and well done Zoe... *applause* I fully agree with that...

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 94</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

CRIMANALS. Hello WAKE UP!!!!!!Did you know that the christians came after the people with the drinking problems and such and guess what they did?THEY CONFORMED THE CRIMANALS then they moved on to the Aborigenies,but Like I said not everything that the christians did was right in the Salem witch trials the judges put allot of people to death because of differences and they were CHRISTIANS,Christians make mistakes just like everyone else and some of them dont deserve to be remembered,But you know what stopped the colleseum?A christian Monk -notice the word CHRISTIAN-the colleseum was a blood bath until that Monk ran out in the middle of the ring and got run through with a sword,but his life stopped the colleseum and MORE DEATHS,so Hannah dont say that the world would be better off with out the christians cause it would'nt.

Samwise of the shire
PS someone had better throw two buckets of water on my short curly head ok?

</p>

[Sarah Glaze]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 5</TD><TD><img src=http://www.chickpages.com/fanland/mischiefsdollys/images/doll33a.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Sam-*throws two buckets of water on your curly head*
Okay. This argument has gone way too far. We each have our own opinions so nobody will ver win! I dont want to still be arguing when I'm old and wrinkled!

<TABLE STYLE="filter:glow(color=red, strength=glow)"> <TR><TD><center> <a href=pub33.ezboard.com/bsarahshouse> ~*~Sarah~*~</a> All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wonder are lost
The old that is strong does not wither
Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes, a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be the blade that was broken
The crownless again shall be king.
-Strider, The Lord of the Rings</TABLE> </p>[i]

[Suldaledhel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 307</TD><TD><img src=http://suldalpic.homestead.com/files/00004.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Just out of curiosity, when was this Samwise? Couldnt have been during the reign of Emperor Nero, during the time of the first great persecutions. And I dont remember hearing any stories like this under the reign of Diocletian either. I was simply wondering if you could provide a date Samwise, or if not, maybe the ruling figure ofr some clarifications.

They all gazed at him. His hair was white as snow in the sunshine; and gleaming white was his robe; the eyes under his deep brows were bright, piercing as the rays of the sun; power was in his hand. Between wonder, joy, and fear they found no words to say. 'I have passed through fire and deep water, since we parted. I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned much that I had forgotten. I can see things far off, but many things close at hand I cannot see. I shall tell you of my tales at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> ." </p>

[Balin999]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 265</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Sam, this goes to you.
you said that the christians conformed the aboriginies after conforming the criminlas. well, WHY did christians always have to conform people????? i don't see the point in forcing a religoin on a whole civilization. but not only the christians did it, also the muslims and well there are certainly other religions, but what i want to say is that religion has been and is the reason for many many wars all over the world.
i think that a world without religion would SOMETIMES be better. and i think that people are way too emotional when they are discussing religion. just take this thread in the forum....




Behold the King of Moria!</p>

[Suldaledhel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 308</TD><TD><img src=http://suldalpic.homestead.com/files/00004.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Just to help back up Sam a bit, the Christians of that time period (or a bit earlier, I dont really know when Australia was being settled) fully believed that if you were not a baptized Christian, you would go straight to hell when you died. This is why they were so &quot;persistent&quot; if you will about converting others, even if this meant by the sword. Now of course I dont agree with this, but it is *somewhat* explainable given that they truly believed this, and thus their fervid faith somewhat blinded their sense of morals(?) Same with the puritans and such, they fully believed they were helping the people in the long run.

They all gazed at him. His hair was white as snow in the sunshine; and gleaming white was his robe; the eyes under his deep brows were bright, piercing as the rays of the sun; power was in his hand. Between wonder, joy, and fear they found no words to say. 'I have passed through fire and deep water, since we parted. I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned much that I had forgotten. I can see things far off, but many things close at hand I cannot see. I shall tell you of my tales at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> ." </p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 295</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Dangerous ground.

You're treading dangerous ground so I suggest everyone be highly tactful and accurate when relating events. A lot of people are oversensitive about their religion.
But I haven't thrown in my two penny bit yet. The Christians have had a long history of good as well as evil. The mistake the western world made was assuming that all non Christians were barbarians, or heathen. That's more or less the excuse for colonization, spl of Africa.
As for Islam, it is a tolerant and humane religion. The few that you refer to are fanatics. And they're present in every religion. The church in England that burnt HP books is a good example. You cannot generaliza the netire people of a religion. Because, beyond a point, your religion doesn't make you who you are. You make yourself who you are.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 51</TD><TD><img src=http://www.durmstrang2k.homestead.com/files/aeris.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Samwise, you misquoted me. *Glares* I said, 'only people like you were not quite so proud of their religion, this world would be a much better place!!' and I stick to it.
The problem is, Sam, you're so sure you're right. They were all sure that they were doing it for the best. Hitler probably believed that he was helping his country by killing several million people. So I can't argue with that. I can only be sorry for you with your limited views, your certanity that the good people were Christians, even though you contradict yourself.
Can't you even SEE that you're contradicting yourself?! 'Christians make mistakes' - and then list how nevertheless all the good people were Christian. <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

This conversation is over, as far as I'm concerned. I know I said that last time, but I mean it now. I can't convince yoyu and I know it. You, like all the others, think you're right. I leave it to Zoe, and just about everyone else, to finish.

((By the way - Lorien Wanderer - Judaism did not make me me. But I'm increasingly more and more convinced that a twisted idea of a 'loving' God or a strange idea of Christianity, did make quite a lot of people who they are. It depends on how big a part faith and religion had in your upbringing.))

~*Hannah*~
Day after day
Alone on the hill
The man with a foolish grin is keeping perfectly still
But nobody wants to know him
They can see that he's just a fool
And he never gives an answer,
But the fool on the hill
Sees the sun going down
And the eyes in his head
See the world spinning round... ~ The Beatles</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 317</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

&quot;CRIMANALS. Hello WAKE UP!!!!!!Did you know that the christians came after the people with the drinking problems and such and guess what they did?THEY CONFORMED THE CRIMANALS then they moved on to the Aborigenies&quot;

If you do mean &quot;conform&quot;, I think that's already been covered. But if you in fact mean &quot;reform&quot;, in reference to Australian aborigines, I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at your lack of aust. history knowledge (but then again, I'm certainly no US history expert). Certainly, no reformation has ever occured. Even more certainly, drinking and crime is still a problem among all Australians, although disproportionatly (spelling?) among Aborigines.

Has anyone else noticed how non-Tolkien this is getting? <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

"This sig is proudly quote-free." -Me.
(Also known as eoz, and now has a non-Tolkien forum, called http://pub57.ezboard.com/beverythingelse45161everything else</a>.) </p>

[Gilthalion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 277</TD><TD><img src=http://home.att.net/~robertwgardner/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
...a still small voice...

I had absolutely no intentions of even opening this topic, not really seeing the point of Harry Potter opinions on a Tolkien Discussion Board.

Complaints were made in the Barrow-Downs forum which is for general discussions.

So, I opened the topic to have a look.

Then I saw that the topic actually concerned an exercise in comparing and contrasting different works in the fantasy genre. That can be a useful exercise, but I have often found such exercises to be pointless.

The discussion disintegrated into an argument about the values (or lack thereof) among the main characters in the HP series and of Sam in LOTR.

By the way, I was astounded at how many people said they LIKED Gollum, who might be interesting to read, but is HARDLY likeable. Pitiable, but NOT likeable! Not totally irredeemable, but to blame Sam for Gollum's decisions is worse than Sam hastily calling Gollum names when waking to see him &quot;pawing at Master.&quot; Sam even apologized! Sam was also nice enough to Gollum in Ithilien. He can hardly be blamed for being distrustful of the wicked and murderous creature! He could have been nicer perhaps, but I have not seen very many of YOU behaving any more nicely to folk in this topic who were certainly not guilty of Gollums murders and treachery!

After this, the topic further disintegrated into a rather uninformed and malinformed harrangue against the excesses of some who've called themselves Christians and of Fundamentalist Christians in particular.

A news story was republished in this thread that dealt with a particular small group near Pittsburgh whose members thought it best to purge the artifacts they possessed which they felt were coming between themselves and their walk with God. They were demeaned as intolerant and ignorant.

There's not much tolerance in the world for those who hold closely to their faiths, however simple, or however mistaken.

I see intolerance in the name of tolerance. These folk did not, even in the news story, insist that others do as they did. (Though they would clearly have been delighted if the world followed their example!) They did not ransack their neighbor's houses searching for Black Sabbath albums (Grrrr!) or Harry Potter books. They did not send a petition to Congress demanding a repeal of the 1st and 2nd Amendments to the Constitution.

They did what they thought best for themselves and their families. And they furthermore did so knowing YOU (in general) would think them bigots and fools.

I am reminded of a controversy that was brought before the Apostle Paul. It seems that some of the local Christians were getting a good deal at the butcher shop on meat that had been barbequed on pagan altars. Other Christians were upset and wanted Paul to forbid it. Paul answered that if eating such meat was a problem for them, then not to do it! But there was nothing in the meat itself that was evil, and it was not a sin. But to those who did eat the meat he said, don't do it in front of someone who you know it will offend! THAT would indeed be sinful...

For young Hannah and her KKK adversaries, this has a Real Life application for me. I live in Alabama. Down here in the South, the NAACP has been trying very hard for a decade to erase all vestiges of Confederate History. I am opposed to this. Nevertheless, I do NOT fly a CSA Battleflag and I do not support it being flown from the flag pole of our capitol because I know that it's misappropriation in the 1960's as a symbol of Segregationism has made it offensive to some of my Christian brethren (and their relatives). But if young Johnny Reb wants to wear it on his T-shirt because he's proud of umpty-great grandad, he has a right to. See the difference?

Samwise has a mother who would rather she not read Harry Potter, but who trusts Tolkien. Right or wrong, it is her mother's right to forbid her to indulge further in the stories. And it is Samwise's right to be persuaded to her mother's view and to attempt to persuade others as well. And it is the right of others to disagree.

It is no one's right on this Discussion Board to get personal, however.

I would urge you young folk to practice more of the tolerance you claim not to see in the Fundamentalist Christians the modern media teaches us to ridicule and despise.

And as for you young Samwise, be slow to take offense! You'll also find it better to SHOW than to TELL!

And with that, having told off almost everyone all at once, the old hobbit turned on his bare heel, stomped back into his little hole, and slammed the door in their astonished faces!

<center><font face=verdana size=1> http://www.barrowdowns.comBarrow-Downs</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000Bare Bones</a>~http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.htmlGrand Adventures</a>~http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.aspThe Hobbits</a>~http://www.tolkientrail.comTolkien Trail</a> </center></p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 302</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Actually Hannah, it doesn't depend on a person's religion at all. Fanatics will find a way to warp whatever religion they follow, regardless of what the scriptures say. So it is wrong to generalize and say Christians are more evil than Jews or that Hindus are more evil than Muslims. They aren't.
I've said it once, I'll say it again. Religious sentiments are involved. More tact and respect would help to keep things civil.
It's non-Tolkien all right. This is starting to go as off-track as the Me restaurant with Zoe running it. So far off on a tangent that it's out of sight. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000038>the Lorien wanderer</A> at: 4/9/01 10:35:05 am

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 97</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:*small smile....

rubbing her short curly head with a towel*Thanks Sarah needed that.)and Gilth thanks.
Eureka!The monk story was in the fourth century,the monk was an asiatic monk and it is a Really sad story.
Hey any opinions of D&amp;D <img src=mad.gif ALT=">:"> D, hey you's right this is off track majorly,Where did this all start?Seriously I forgot.)Not how to get this back on track.
I dont see how you guys cant see the simalarites to LOTR-this is just for the heck of it not to have anything against HP, I've found my reasons.- Are you sure that Rowling has'nt read &quot;The Hobbit&quot;? I mean she loves fantasy-I was reading an article-,well I gotta go if I wanna post somore
And thanks Gilthalion,Sul,and Sarah
From a very grateful and wet
Samwise of the Shire


</p>

[Mithrandir]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 48</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*small smile....

I have intentionaly not posted anything here yet because i found no point in arguing what cannot be solved. But i have to say that i am very proud of you, Samwise, to admit that the topic had gotten out of hand and to thank everyone else for their opinions. a very noble and honorable gesture. go samwise!!! <img src=pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

The Road goes ever on and on </p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 304</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*small smile....

Well, this one's for Sam. Rowling HAS read the Hobbit as well as LoTR as I recently read in an online interview. And she absolutely loved both. In fact, most fantasy writers are ardent fans of Tolkien including Pratchett, Eddings and Jordan.
Ditto as Mithrandir. Go Samwise! <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">


What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Hogwarts2001]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 1</TD><TD><img src=http://a502.g.akamai.net/7/502/1546/ditto38/media.ditto.com/1511/15118902.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re: Whoooooaaaaaaaaa

I think the similarities r good, ive read all the books, and enjoyed them as much as LOTR. The copying/tribute just adds a bit of fantasy to a very well written series. Also i know as many adults who love the books as children.
Hello ppl, im new here...

<font face="Casque" color=333333 size="+1">There are no stupid questions,
Just a lot of inquisitive idiots...

visit my site http://hogwarts.bannerless.comhogwarts.bannerless.com</a> or my board http://pub52.ezboard.com/bharrypotter24172harry potter</a></p>

[Mithrandir]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 54</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re: Whoooooaaaaaaaaa

Welcome to the forum, Hogwarts!!!! We always love new people!!

The Road goes ever on and on </p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 99</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:Hullo there

keep on comin,you'll enjoy this place-unless you've come before under another name*how in the heck do you do winking I cant get to the emoticons page*-.
He he he he now that we've run out of argument we dont have nothin to talk about.Any suggestions?
Sam Gamgee
Ps.yuo I agree with Mith,like I said before keep on comin you'll always find somen'here arguin and debatin and always a warm welcome*winking*-well trying to-

</p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 56</TD><TD><img src=http://www.durmstrang2k.homestead.com/files/aeris.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

((OK. I just had to apologise for this - Lorien Wanderer - I know. I'm sorry. I know the religion doesn't really matter, if they twist it. It's just I've only come across Christian fanatics before. I know others do exist.))

~*Hannah*~
Day after day
Alone on the hill
The man with a foolish grin is keeping perfectly still
But nobody wants to know him
They can see that he's just a fool
And he never gives an answer,
But the fool on the hill
Sees the sun going down
And the eyes in his head
See the world spinning round... ~ The Beatles</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 467</TD><TD><img src=http://www.dodgywebsite.homestead.com/files/Kungfu_01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Wow...this thread *has* really depreciated. I'm sort of shocked...<img src=frown.gif ALT=":("> Maybe you should close this thread BW? <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":/">

Btw, Hannah 3, love the graphic, but it's seriously warping the position of the text i.e. narrows the page heaps...can you trim it down??? <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

- enep</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 310</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Accepted Hannah. Truce. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">
Welcome Hogwarts! Hope to see lots of posts from you!
BW-I doubt if there's any need to close down the gd since everyone's kissed and made up, even if we haven't reached
one opinion. Maybe it taught everyone the value of tolerance-somewhat anyway.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 102</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:I dont think that BW should close this thread..

cause the only reason he would close it is if the fiesty mean attitude that went on on page six and part of pg.seven should leak out on to the other parts of the forum,and it's cooled down alot so I dont think that it's neccisary also I think that this has really opened new doors for friendships and all so please BW please dont close this thread,also it could serve as a warning to someone:Never ever post a harry potter thread on the Barrowdowns forum*winking*.
Sam
Ps welcome back Hannah

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[Grey Fool]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 45</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
G-ma

Dear Smawise, I never said you didn't like Harry Potter, I merely said that your comparisons were a load of rubbish. Which they quite clearly were. They were an excuse to get yourself on the forum.

You wound me up so I got you back.

What is a G-ma? Is it anything to do with weighing sheep?

PS I was foolishly watching Withnail and I for the eightieth time the other night and it suddenly struck me that it was a complete rip off of The Hobbit....

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[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 110</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:Nothin up here.

How can you be sure Grey Fool? You dont know what my intentions were, you dont know if it was to find friends with a common intrest,if it was to have a good descusion,or if it was to hack into other peoples computers,so you have no idea what my intentions were-okay prime opertunity to say &quot;follow your own words Sam&quot;but you probably did'nt read the&quot;off topic threads&quot;post in the announcements page please do-
well I gotta go
Sam G.


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[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 152</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry 'bout this if anyone gets back on

http://www.lordoftherings.net/images/ca_sasti.jp

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[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Ghastly Leprechaun
Posts: 583</TD><TD><img src=http://www.dodgywebsite.homestead.com/files/Kungfu_01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Sorry 'bout this if anyone gets back on

????

- enep</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 154</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
The stupid image wont work for me

<img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":/"> I'm trying to get a picture of Sam next to my name but I cant figure out how to work the stinking thing,I mean I even enlargend my stinking posting area but did it work NOOOOOO!!!!!That's what the stinking white square with a stinking red x through it is,it's the stinking image that wont stinking work.Help me!!!
Sam

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[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Don't know if anyone said this- Wormtongue & Wormtail- any ideas? smilies/wink.gif

[The Only Real Estel]

Guys, if you disagree with this, fine. But I think Harry Potter sucks. Plain and simple. 'Nuff Said. smilies/evil.gif

[Alassë Estel]

A key difference between Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings is that they are on entirely different scales.

For example, Sauron nearly took over the world twice and posed a threat to great kings and powerful immortals alike.

Whereas Voldemort tried to take over a highschool and failed:D.

[Galadriel55]

A very good friend of mine recently pointed out another crucial difference - that of genre. LOTR is true medieval fantasy, it's pretty much an archetype. But HP only masquerades as fantasy; it is, in fact, a mystery series. If you think about it, each book has its own primary and secondary mysteries which the reader solves along with the heroes, with some percolating threads linking up to the Grand Mystery. And everything else is built around solving those mysteries.

[Alassë Estel]

Yes, that is so.

As much fun as I might have lambasting Harry Potter as compared to The Lord of the Rings, it really isn't fair. They are not "peers".

Edit: I should also note that I have only seen the Harry Potter movies, and I have not read the books, making it even more unfair.