'Obscure Character(s) you dislike most' by Sauron 666

[Legolas]

Originally posted in the Books, but an error occurred in moving it here:

In part inspired by a recent thread, I was wondering whom you hold as the middle earth character(s) you dislike the most. However to make it more interesting I'd ask you not denote an obvious 'evil' character like Morgoth or Saruman, but someone less obvious. And please restrict yourself to a character from the books, if someone names Lurtz I'll scream
for my part I would nominate Radagast The Brown. Why? He strikes me as being cowardly and petty. Instead of aiding Gandalf in an important task, ie saving the world, when he had the chance, he just seems to be content to go talking with his birds. Therefore he seems pretty loathsome and pathetic to me.

#2 Sam Gamgee: A sheep with no sense of personal worth, dignity or self purpose. He just follows Frodo wherever with blind loyalty. I know he was essential to accomplishing the task but to me seems to lack any sense of individuality. To me he is the epitamy of slave morality and slave 'virtues'.

Anyone else?

[Galadel Vinorel]

I think that I shall take your challenge. So, we can not mention Morgoth or Saurman. Well, if we can not mntion this two, I would suggest putting up the restriction that we may also not put Sauron down on our replies. Oh, and please, do not crize other people about what they say here. You may disagree, but please be kind and thoughtful to everyone who writes here. Oh, sorry if I sound like I'm taking over your post, Legolas, but I don't want anyone's feelings hurt. Now, let's get down to bussiness.

The person that I would say as being my least favorite character in the Lord of the Rings Trilogy would have to be Boromir. Now, I now that he eventually proved his worth adn fought to defend Merry and Pippin, yet we cannot deny the fact that he tried to harm Frodo and the ring from him. No matter how nice or wonderfully brave Boromir was at the very end of his life, I still do not like him, for I cannot get past this horribe treachery that he committed.

My second least liked character would have to be Lord Denethor, Steward of Gondor. Even from the being whenwe first meet the Lord in Gondor, I did not particularyily like him, for I had this odd feeling about this character of Tolkien. Another reason why I disliked him, is how Gandalf did not particuarily like him, for, as we all know, Gandalf did not like Grima Wormtongue, and he was right not to. Also, Denethor was, I thought, rather mean to Pippin, and his son, and should not have tried to burn himself and his son alive, for it does no good to despair, no matter how badly your life seems to be.

Well, those are two of my most disliked characters. What are everyone else's? Namarie.

[Finwe]

The character that I dislike the most is Gandalf *ducks flying objects*. He may have been one of the most self-sacrificing and wise members of the Fellowship, but he did have a penchant for going off and getting himself captured or otherwise taken out of the picture, right before the other characters needed him the most. Honestly, did he HAVE to go visit Saruman? You'd have to be pretty thick to trust someone with fingernails longer than Galadriel's, especially if they're male.

[elenquesse]

I agree with Galadel, I particularly dislike Denethor, mainly because he was so darn cruel to Faramir, who proved to have a stronger willpower than his beloved brother. I myself live daily in the shadow of my immensely-intelligent Princetonian brother, and have been desperately trying to make a mark of my own. Second, I would name Pippin, that "fool of a Took". Although sweet and endearing, he does very little in the Quest other than help bring the Balrog out of the depths of Moria, foolishly wield the Palantir, and pledge himself to an ailing and otherwise crazed Steward. I can't recall if he did some other great deed in Minas Tirith, but generally speaking, he's rather naive.

I was surprised, Legolas, when you named Sam. He's one of my favorite characters, right behind Eowyn, but yes, it is kind of odd that he always addresses Frodo as "Mr.Frodo" or "Master" in the books. The point is that any other servant or slave would not embark on a hopeless quest for his master.

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

Well, one of the more obvious characters to dislike is at the top of my list: Gollum. But then it gets a little more obscure. I don't like Thingol, either, in fact, I find him just plain annoying, mostly because of his arrogance. And I agree with you, Legolas, about Radagast. I don't really have anything against him, per se, but as far as we can see he completely abandoned his mission and ignored the fact htat he could have been a great help in the War of the Ring and such.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I admit to disliking Tom Bombadil.

*hides with Finwe*

Tom Bombadil was colorful, but his constant "hey dol derry dol" routine got old pretty quickly as far as I was concerned. I don't think he was interesting enough to justify the number of pages devoted to him.

I have to defend Sam a bit. He was a servant of Mr. Frodo's, and a lot of his behavior was modeled on what was probably considered an "ideal" British servant. These days those notions seem antiquated and elitist, especially to us Americans, but in Britain a hundred years ago being "in service" was an honorable job and "giving satisfaction" to one's employer was a source of pride. Whether the class system was wrong or not and whether the servants were deluded or not wasn't something most people thought about then.

Cheers!
-Lily

[The Saucepan Man]

I was surprised, Legolas, when you named Sam.

Just to be clear, Legolas was reposting something originally posted by Sauron666. So the views are those of Sauron666, not Legolas.

For me it has to be Mim the Petty-Dwarf. Nasty, deceitful, unlikeable little fellow that he is.

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

For me it has to be Mim the Petty-Dwarf. Nasty, deceitful, unlikeable little fellow that he is.


Ah, definately. There are very few characters that I truly dislike (I had to really think even to produce the two I posted above), but Mim is certainly one of them.

[Lhunardawen]

For me it would be the King's Men in Numenor. They turned their backs from the Valar and prohibited people from speaking in the Elven-tongue. They were just jealous of the immortality of the Eldar, but in the end their own lives waned.

[Kalimac]

Elenquesse - oh, surely not Pippin! He saved Faramir, after all, and think of how things would have been if he'd been killed. And by looking into the Palantir - heck, even dropping the stone in the well - he brought about events which eventually turned out well. Things might have gone very badly if Gandalf had looked in the Palantir, and if he hadn't died at Moria and been reborn...well. Not that Pippin did those things *intentionally* but still, he was a handy tool of fate.

Have to agree with everyone who mentioned Mim - nasty little guy.

As for good characters that we dislike (I can't count Mim as good) I'll have to say Tom Bombadil, though a lot of that is due to having read "Bored of the Rings" and being unable to shake the image of Tim Benzedrine. Unworthy, I know. So my other candidate will be Ghan-buri-Ghan. I don't know why, but the Wild Men just left me cold, and he was irritating to read.

[Lhunardawen]

So my other candidate will be Ghan-buri-Ghan. I don't know why, but the Wild Men just left me cold, and he was irritating to read.


Same here. Could it be because of how he speaks? smilies/biggrin.gif

[Kalimac]

There was that (what, they never heard of pronouns), but I don't think it was the only factor - Gollum is a bear to read aloud, and I don't dislike him (more than I should, I mean). I'd say it's more because the Wild Men just feel too much like a convenient plot device - it's hard to picture them actually having a coherent society and living their ordinary lives after the whole war is over. They always just seem to melt away, their plot-forwarding task finished.

[The Saucepan Man]

Gollum is a bear to read aloud

Funnily enough, I found him a treat to read aloud when I read The Hobbit to my daughter. You can really go to town with him.

I'd say it's more because the Wild Men just feel too much like a convenient plot device - it's hard to picture them actually having a coherent society and living their ordinary lives after the whole war is over.

But they do have a long and noble heritage, dating back to the First Age, when they were valued as allies (particularly against Orcs) by the Haladin. They even went to Numenor with the Edain (though they had the sense to leave before Ar-Pharazon's unwise venture to the West). Heck, they even have their own chapter in Unfinished Tales. smilies/smile.gif

I find it hard to dislike "good" characters. But Tom Bombadil comes pretty close. All that "merry dol" stuff does nothing for me. smilies/rolleyes.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[Kalimac]

Saucepan - maybe I should amend that. Gollum is OK in small doses - "Riddles in the Dark" etc. I was thinking more of reading looong sections of TTT out loud - Gollum gave me a sore throat faster than all the other characters combined, yes, he did that to poor Kalimac, yes he did, Precious!

As for the Wild Men - they've definitely got a history. They just always felt more insubstantial to me than all the other groups; can't explain it really, just a feeling.

Full agreement about Tom Bombadil - ring-a-ding-dillo sing-song got a bit old. (And the parody was wicked).

[Trippo The Hippo]

I must agree with all the statements towards Tom he just wasn't needed in my mind.

Along that line Prince Imrahil didn't do much for me, perhaps I need to read more but he seemed rather thrown in and I dont like when main characters are thrown in. (Arwen could have shown up smilies/rolleyes.gif )

Also Radagast wasn't great for prior stated reasons.

(sorry i didnt have a ton to add to this topic its rather late)

[The Saucepan Man]

Gollum gave me a sore throat faster than all the other characters combined

Ah, I see what you mean. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Meela]

I dislike Tom Bombadil. He didn't seem to fit in with the rest of the story. Plus the yellow boots gave me nightmares.

I also dislike Gandalf. There's something about him... I'm not sure what, but it seems like he's rather arrogant and self-important.

[Evisse the Blue]

I dislike Sam too - well, not really 'hate' but a mild annoyance at his servile ways and mostly at his 'jokes'. I groan when he's supposed to be funny. I almost prefer Gollum to him - on second thought, I definitely do, Gollum is much more interesting and funny!

As for another - it would have to be Arago-- ** splash go the rotten tomatoes **. Really, he strikes me as the sort of ambitious and arrogant type of fellow who does everything for a purpose, as if it all were a means to an end. Only at the end, with the Houses of Healing scene, my very cool feelings toward him sort of melted. Weirdly enough, though I don't quite like Viggo Mortensen, the movie Aragorn was more likeable to me.

[Daisy Brambleburr]

As for another - it would have to be Arago-- ** splash go the rotten tomatoes **. Really, he strikes me as the sort of ambitious and arrogant type of fellow who does everything for a purpose, as if it all were a means to an end.

Although I don't strongly dislike any character, I have to agree with you about Aragorn. I don't hate him or anything, but he does seem a bit too perfect. I just want him to do something wrong or to show a flaw, something little would do, like tripping over.

Radagast seemed slightly pointless to me. He was a bit of a wimp and didn't do anything to help when he really should have. The one time he did help it wasn't really intentional.

I'm afraid that I quite like Tom Bombadil. I'm re-reading the book at the moment and I'm on 'the house of tom bombadil'. The weirdness of him, and his songs make me smile. The rhymes and nonsense are wonderful, I think.

[StarJewel]

Tom Bombadil always annoyed me. He just seems so out of place in the story. Granted, reading Bored of the Rings before and getting the image of Tim Benzedrine stuck in my noggin didn't help matters. smilies/rolleyes.gif

[DarkRose]

I never expected anyone to dislike good ole' Gandalf. smilies/eek.gif I've always had a strong affinity for him. His relationships with the hobbits has always touched me. But hey, to each his own, yes? I just never expected it, is all.

If we were including The Hobbit in this thread, which I don't think we are, I would definitely say Thorin Oakenshield. Ever since I was little, I've severely disliked his surly attitude and bossy ways.

If I had to name someone from LOTR, I'd have to say Grima Wormtongue, as predictable as it is. There's nothing I hate more than a slithering, foul snake. And that's exactly how I view Grima. He was bent on corrupting the king.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Huh? Aren't we including all of ME, in all the ages?

As for me, I would say Elrond. However, seeing the movies might have twisted my view of him a little. However, he always seems to sure of himself, and I never liked him in the hobbit, for some reason.

[Lord of Angmar]

Sauron 666, your implication that Sam's character was imbued with "slave virtues" seems to me to be absurd. Had Sam waited on Frodo throughout his life as he did on the Quest for Mount Doom, it might have been different, but he didn't. Sam simply showed bravery, extremely loyalty and personal sacrifice in the face of danger, more for the sake of the ultimate purpose of the Quest than for any other reason. The fact that it was his best friend, whom he loved dearly, who happened to be his companion and the sole appointed Ringbearer, made it all the more poignant, but I am sure that Sam would have acted with the same courage and sacrifice for any other member of the Fellowship - or, for that member, any of the other Free Peoples of Middle-earth - if they were allotted the duty of destroying the One Ring and he were chosen as their companion. The virtues he displayed are virtues that every one of us should have at need.

But still, opinions are opinions, I suppose.

I second Saucepan Man's nomination of Mim the Petty-Dwarf as the most unlikeable obscure character in the works of Professor Tolkien. smilies/wink.gif Good thing Hurin gave the treacherous rascal his due.

Cheers,
Angmar

[Firefoot]

I have two. The first is Tom Bombadil. He got old really fast and the "Hey dol merry dol" is really annoying. Other than that he bothers me. A lot.

The other is Treebeard. I don't know what it is - but I don't like Ents. They annoy me for some reason.

There have been really interesting choices here. Mim - I had forgotten about him - is deceitful and crafty, and I understand choices like that, but I was really surprised by Aragorn and Sam. They are two of my favorite characters.

[Lord of Angmar]

I have noticed a flaw in this thread: In the title it says 'Obscure' characters, but Sauron 666 goes on to talk about Sam as one of his least favorite. Sam, Aragorn, Treebeard and Tom Bombadil (to name a few that have been mentioned) are not obscure and thus discussion of one's dislike of these characters would probably be suited for Your 5 Worst Characters (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=002090) or another similar, equally redundant thread.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:21 PM December 30, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Angadraug]

Well some of the characters that got on my nerves had very small roles. I hated the Sackville-Bagginses, especially Lotho. I also didn't like Radagast much. He didn't do much of anything for anybody.

As for Gandalf I loved his character for everything he did, like organizing the entire thing, but in my opinion wizards like him should have more power. If you think about it he radiated light and was just very knowledgeable. I think my view's of wizards might just be a little different than Tolkien's.

[Lord of Angmar]

You don't like the subtle-of-mind, quick-to-wrath-and-mirth, mysterious wizard of unknown origin, eh Angadraug? I can see how one might think that. After all, wizards are supposed to dramatically chant spells and make flames rise from boiling cauldrons. smilies/wink.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/evil.gif

I agree about the S.-B.'s, although Lobelia redeemed herself for me in the end. Has anyone mentioned Ghan-buri-Ghan? He didn't seem too useful to the flow of Return of the King, though I can't say I have anything against him personally.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:36 PM December 30, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Iarwain]

Fingon. His name always kept mixing me up, between Finrod, Finwe, Fingolfin, and all the other "fin-"s. What did he do that was important, anyway?

And that Feanor, he always seemed like an unimportant addition. It seems like Tolkien must have just liked the name, so he made up this little guy that did nothing and had absolutely no effect on the plot at all. smilies/wink.gif

Iarwain

[Lord of Angmar]

Feanor? Who's he?

[Evisse the Blue]

Feanor? Who's he?
Lol - but hey, Feanor is pretty cool, you have to admit. Without him and his sharp tongue and fiery temper it would have been one boring Arda.

And I remember that another character whom I strongly dislike (he's obscure in terms of amount of time devoted to him in the book but not significance) is Elrond, and I'm glad I'm not alone in this. All this talk about him being the wisest, and I really didn't see much evidence in support of this.

[Lord of Angmar]

Well, people thought Elrond seemed more wise before the release of the movies. Re-read the part of the Fellowship of the Ring in the Rivendell parts, and try not to think of him as the grumpy, monotonous, entirely un-Elvish Agent Smith, and maybe you will feel more warmly about the character of Elrond Halfelven.

[Evisse the Blue]

I used to think the same about Elrond even before the movies came out. And his Agent Smith appearance ruined it for me totally; I can't read the book without conjuring in my mind his movie personna, though I don't really have the same problem with other characters.I don't think I'll ever be able to like Elrond...Oh, well, he's got one fangirl less... smilies/biggrin.gif

[Olorin_TLA]

I luckilly can *phew*...though with Haldir I have to be careful not to get his movie man's giant nose and drawl into my head. smilies/wink.gif

I like obscure characters. They rock...possibly becasue they're obscure! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Laitoste]

The master of Laketown, from The Hobbit. Did he have a name? (It's been a long time since I read it.) I never really liked Bard, either. I haven't read the Silmarillion that much (though I disliked Turin-don't kill me!), and the ones I hate in LOTR are obvious and not obscure. I have every intention of rereading The Silmarillion after I finish LOTR again. smilies/biggrin.gif

[mark12_30]

Absolutely: Lindir from Rivendell. "Mortals have not been our study; we have other business."

Well, excuse us.

His one line of elvish snobbery has raised his arrogance to immortality.

[Nienna, sister of Feanturi]

I've always had an unreasonable dislike of Haldir, I'm not sure why. Maybe the film version put me off.
I don't know if they really count as obscure, but Oin and Gloin annoy me, probably becuase their names remind me of the sound of a person with constipation on the loo...
it would have to be Arago-- ** splash go the rotten tomatoes **. Really, he strikes me as the sort of ambitious and arrogant type of fellow who does everything for a purpose, as if it all were a means to an end I agree, I can't stand him! He's so full of himself, and he doesn't really love Arwen if he did how could he ask her to give up her immortality for him? He just saw her in a grove one day and thought "Ooh, she's pretty". And when Gandalf dies, he says "You know I did warn him not to enter Moria" or something of that sort- he just has to take the credit even though his friend's just died...
I like Ghan- Buri -Ghan although I have to agree about Bombadil. And those Ents go on forever. I preferred them in the film version.

[Rilwen Gamgee]

I've always disliked Denethor. [Hides from stalkers] He reminds me of an insane pyro. He didn't listen to what anyone else said and refused to believe about the city he was in charge of being on the verge of destruction; he just stayed in his own little bubble of fire. He needed a good slap on the face by reality.

Celegorm was also a bit of a nuisance. Trying to steal Beren's love! smilies/mad.gif

[Lord of Angmar]

Please, no more discussion of Aragorn - not only is he a completely un-obscure character, but the criticisms I have heard of him have been entirely unjustified.

"...he doesn't really love Arwen if he did how could he ask her to give up her immortality for him?"

First of all, it cannot be suggested that Aragorn did not love Arwen because, according to Tolkien the creator of Middle-earth, Aragorn did, in fact, love Arwen. Secondly, he certainly did not ask Arwen to give up her immortality for him, nor would he have. She made the choice for herself.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:40 PM January 11, 2004: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Treebeard? Treebeard? smilies/eek.gif

Well, why don't we just add Merry and Pippin to the list eh? smilies/rolleyes.gif

(apologies for that outburst, but Treebeard just has to be the best character in the history of literature)

As for Mim the Dwarf, I think the little guy's getting a bit of a hard time here. Consider his situation. A bunch of Men come along one day, kill his son and take over his home. He betrays them eventually (though only to save his own life) and is then killed by another Man. A sad story I think.

So who gets my vote? Saeros (I am surprised no-one has mentioned this chap yet). Now there's a nasty piece of work.

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

What did he do that was important, anyway?

Fingon? He was the one who was best friends with Maedhros and rescued him from Thangorodrim. (Don't be amazed that I remember this, I looked it up yesterday, because I couldn't remember what he did, either).

Absolutely: Lindir from Rivendell. "Mortals have not been our study; we have other business."

Well, excuse us.

His one line of elvish snobbery has raised his arrogance to immortality.


I have to agree with you there, mark12_30. That's pretty much what I think every time I read that part.

Wow. I thought there weren't many I didn't like, but now I'm remembering more. Saeros- definately. Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir- all baddies. Maeglin, Eol- don't like them, either. It just goes to show that there are evil elves, after all!

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:24 PM January 01, 2004: Message edited by: Luthien_ Tinuviel ]

[Firefoot]

Fingon? He was the one who was best friends with Maedhros and rescued him from Taniquetil. Shouldn't that be Thangorodrim? smilies/wink.gif

[Finwe]

I always knew that Manwë was up to no good, but this, this takes the cake! smilies/wink.gif

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

Sorry about that- thanks, guys, and don't mind me. smilies/wink.gif

[Olorin_TLA]

Yeah, definately Saeros! Although this obscure Manwe-capture might take priority! smilies/redface.gif

One of my friends who has read LotR was genuinly shocked when I mentioned there were evil Elves...guess it's a good thing I didn't tell him some of them were incestuous then (with disasteorus results smilies/frown.gif )...

[Lalaith]

I nominate Turgon. For not letting Hurin into Gondolin straightaway. "Remember the Fen of Serech", indeed. Bah. One of the most ungrateful acts ever committed in Middle Earth.
And I would also like to confess that while dislike is too strong a word, I've never really participated in the love affair most readers seem to have with Frodo. I find him a bit dull and worthy, and nowhere near as endearing as Bilbo. Elijah Wood's portrayal did little to change my mind.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

But that whole deal with Hurin and Turgon was about saving a remnant of the Eldar. Hurin then completely jeapordised (sp?) his very own idea by sniffing about the borders of Gondolin.

Turgon was harsh to a friend, but only for the protection of his people.

[Lalaith]

I don't care. It was a really mean-spirited thing to do.
But I agree with you about Mim. He always struck me as a rather pathetic figure and I felt sorry for him. He and his sons were after all the last of their kind, a lonely thing to be.

[Carrûn]

Definatly Mim the Petty-Dwarf. Never really liked the Dwarves of Nogrod either.

[The Dark Elf]

I have to say my least favourite character in LOTR is Bill Ferny. He's a downright creep. Also Elrond. He doesn't help at all! He could've done alot in the war and helped Gondor and Rohan with Rivendell elves and keep many lives from being wasted. That's all I have to say.

[Legolas]

Fingon. His name always kept mixing me up, between Finrod, Finwe, Fingolfin, and all the other "fin-"s. What did he do that was important, anyway?

Wha?! Coming from someone named after Tom Bombadil?!

Fingon the Valiant was a noble king/prince who did the best he could with clear and unquestionable intentions - as righteous or more so than his cousins, and most other characters in The Silmarillion. Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, could not even defeat Fingon - it took two balrogs.

Therefore he dared a deed which is justly renowned among the feats of the princes of the Noldor: alone, and without the counsel of any, he set forth in search of Maedhros; and aided by the very darkness that Morgoth had made he came unseen into the fastness of his foes. High upon the shoulders of Thangorodrim he climbed, and looked in despair upon the desolation of the land; but no passage or crevice could he find through which he might come within Morgoth's stronghold. Then in defiance of the Orcs, who cowered still in the dark vaults beneath the earth, he took his harp and sang a song of Valinor that the Noldor made of old, before strife was born among the sons of Finwë; and his voice rang in the mournful hollows that had never heard before aught save cries of fear and woe.

Then Fingon prince of Hithlum rode against him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with a ring of swift riders; and Glaurung could not endure their darts, being not yet come to his full armoury, and he fled back to Angband, and came not forth again for many years. Fingon won great praise, and the Noldor rejoiced;

Then when Fingon heard afar the great trumpet of Turgon his brother, the shadow passed and his heart was uplifted, and he shouted aloud: 'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!' And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying: 'Auta i lómë! The night is passing!'

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:56 AM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Missy Evenstar]

I think the character in LOTR that I dislike the most is Denethor. I mean a guy who is willing to burn his own son alive is pretty sick and twisted. And also the fact that he thought one son was better than the other and he wished that Boromir had stayed and Faramir had gone with the Fellowship and died shows some real "love" there.

And then sending Faramir off to take back a city that was over run with orcs that just wasn't going to be taken back? All he cared about was that he stayed in power as the steward. Though I myself think he thought he was king. But hey that's just me.

"That still counts as one!"~Gimli smilies/biggrin.gif

[Oroaranion]

I must say Wormtounge. He was a worthless snake who betrayed his own King to get a little power from Saruman. iF Saruman had succeeded, I doubt he would have given Grima any power anyway.

As you may be able to see, i have strong views about the Rohirrim.

[doug*platypus]

Ioreth !!!

Graarrggh, burárum! She is so annoying! I wish that Treebeard would stomp into town and just slap her! smilies/mad.gif

But it seems as if most people dislike the evil characters. Hmm... guess this makes me one mean platypus.

Faramir in my opinion actually isn't very likeable when we first meet him. He has all the haughtiness of an Aragorn, and we don't really know him yet. I guess like Sam (and unlike Frodo), I don't trust him fully from the start. But later when we see Pippin's description of him, and his bravery in the retreat from Osgiliath and the Causeway Forts, he is great! But I just thought that I'd mention he starts out as not very likeable.

[The Mushroom]

Saeros! Eeeewwww... :p I also dislike Mim, Radaghast, and Bill Ferny.

[Gorwingel]

I have to agree with others. I dislike Wormtongue... the only good thing that that guy did was kill off Saurman for good! But I just didn't like him, I even think I liked him better in the film than in the book because it just seemed like he had a larger part. But, yes, he has to be the first obscure character that I don't like that popped in to my mind. I really don't have an extreme dislike towards anyone else (in the book at least, the film is another story...) :cool:

[Bêthberry]

Interesting that many here name Tom Bombadill. The Old Forest holds yet another character, one more obscure than he. Goldberry.

I suppose my frustrations with her arise from two points. I find some of the qualities Tolkien ascribes to her embarassing. (Some I like, I hasten to add.) And I dislike the way she is simply dropped, from the post dinner conversations with the hobbits and from the book's conclusion, where Tolkien attempts to tie Tom into the story's end but completely omits any mention of Goldberry.

It seems to me that Tolkien clothes the Persephone myth with all the sumptuous accoutrements of a Martha Stewart refining the art of dinner presentation. I don't think it is the concept of her, a character pointing clearly to fantasy and mythology, that bothers me so much as it is the actual practice of describing her.

And lest I be criticised, let me say I think the idea of a couple creating convivial dinners is not the fault. I enjoy Ann and George Edwards tremendously in Mary Russell's The Sparrow. Now there's a host and hostess who create supurb conditions for the enjoyment and exercise of human social intercourse--warm, witty, charming, endearing, neither sentimental nor perfect--the stuff that molds kindness and friendship and fellowship. Maybe it is the oxymoron of "so fair was the grace of Goldberry and so merry and odd the caperings of Tom." Maybe it is that I wish there was something more perilous to her character, something grounding her more thoroughly in the realm of true fairy.

Yet though, this could simply be the effect of an embarassment of riches. A fertile imagination, playing with so many materials, and needing yet more story to bind them.

[Urwen]

For me, it would be Ar-Pharazon beyond a doubt.

[Huinesoron]

For me, it would be Ar-Pharazon beyond a doubt.

I'm going to go more obscure than that and name the Ruling Queens of Numenor - all three of them.


Tar-Ancalime was a nightmare. She was surrounded by some pretty spiteful people (both her parents, and her husband), but she flipped from 'Dad should have given Mum her way' to 'everyone must do things my way', up to and including 'no woman of my house can get married'. Note that both of her granddaughters flatly refused to take the throne (and yes, they too were subject to the 'no marriage' rule ).
Tar-Telperien, great-granddaughter of the above, was insanely prideful. Her reign is characterised by refusals: she refused to marry, refused to honour the alliance with Lindon, and ultimately refused to yield the sceptre before her death. There's a reason for my 'Witch-Queen of Numenor' theory.
Tar-Vanimelde, nearly a thousand years later, was useless. She didn't rule at all, allowing her husband to do so in his stead, ultimately leading to his usurpation of the sceptre after her death. You could read her as being silenced by an overbearing husband - except that Tolkien makes a point of telling us that she just didn't want to bother.


Between them, I think the three thoroughly poisoned Numenor's view of women in power. I think their awfulness made it easier for the people to accept Pharazon's usurpation of Miriel's power (and in fairness, from a Numenorean perspective, an elf-loving Tar-Miriel would have been Terrible Queen Number Four), and I think it also led directly to Elendil's/his successors' revocation of the New Law of Succession. Without them, there could have been Queens Regnant of Gondor, Arnor, and Arthedain, and Chieftainesses of the Dunedain.

(From an external perspective, I almost wonder if Tolkien created them specifically to justify the fact that he hadn't given Gondor any ruling queens...)

hS

[Urwen]

I disagree. She was supposed to redeem Numenor, not destroy it, unlike her power-greedy idiot husband. He elevated Sauron to his chief councilor, after all. And we know what happened to last three people who let someone with an evil heart advise them. Then again, he himself had an evil heart too. As one fan put it: 'Who does he think he is - Maeglin?'

For he too married his close kin. He was surrounded by like-minded people, who cheered for his act of marrying close kin like it is nothing out of the ordinary, despite there being a precedent to it being unacceptable (Silmarillion, chapter 16).

That might be part of the reason I hate him, actually. He was lauded for this, while Lomion - his predecessor - fell into infamy for attempting to do the same thing. Another reason is Tar-Miriel herself, as he took her chance to rule (and redeem the land and it's people) away from her. Say what you want about me, but I stand by the characters I like.

[Huinesoron]

I disagree.

I think you've misinterpreted what I said. By 'from a Numenorean perspective' I meant that most of Numenor was King's Men by this point, so a second ruler from the Faithful would be a bad thing from their point of view.

hS

[Urwen]

I think you've misinterpreted what I said. By 'from a Numenorean perspective' I meant that most of Numenor was King's Men by this point, so a second ruler from the Faithful would be a bad thing from their point of view.

hS


Not to be mean or anything, but I don't care what they think. :)

[Huinesoron]

Not to be mean or anything, but I don't care what they think. :)

That's okay; I doubt they worry overmuch about your opinions either. :)

It's still an interesting question: if Ancalime, Telperien, and Vanimelde had been good rulers, would even the King's Men have been more inclined to press for Tar-Miriel to be allowed to take the sceptre in her own right? Would she have been more able to leverage her position to refuse Pharazon's demand of marriage? That very much does depend on how they think.

(Of course, if Ancalime had been nicer, her granddaughter would probably have been the second Ruling Queen, and the whole Line of Numenor would be different. So maybe it's best not to think too hard about it...)

hS

[Urwen]

That's okay; I doubt they worry overmuch about your opinions either. :)

It's still an interesting question: if Ancalime, Telperien, and Vanimelde had been good rulers, would even the King's Men have been more inclined to press for Tar-Miriel to be allowed to take the sceptre in her own right? Would she have been more able to leverage her position to refuse Pharazon's demand of marriage? That very much does depend on how they think.

(Of course, if Ancalime had been nicer, her granddaughter would probably have been the second Ruling Queen, and the whole Line of Numenor would be different. So maybe it's best not to think too hard about it...)

hS

'If X was in a different situation, would they have turned out differently?'

For most of my favorites, and many others, the answer would have been 'yes'. And that's why we have fanfiction. For instance, I can imagine Tar-Miriel ruling as she should've; I could imagine Curse of Morgoth being lifted; I can imagine Lomion as a good person; I can imagine Maedhros with both hands intact etc., but that's neither here nor there.

[Huinesoron]

'If X was in a different situation, would they have turned out differently?'

For most of my favorites, and many others, the answer would have been 'yes'. And that's why we have fanfiction. For instance, I can imagine Tar-Miriel ruling as she should've; I could imagine Curse of Morgoth being lifted; I can imagine Lomion as a good person; I can imagine Maedhros with both hands intact etc., but that's neither here nor there.

But "if X was in this specific different situation, how would they have turned out differently?" is a fun question (as is the reverse: "how would X's situation have to change to get them to turn out in this way?"). Numenor was a pretty nasty place by Tar-Miriel's time, and I'm not at all sure small shifts would make much of a difference. If the King's Men are powerful, and Pharazon is their leader, it's very hard to give Miriel the sceptre.

(The simplest shift might actually be to kill her father sooner! Pharazon was in Middle-earth until a few years earlier, when his father died unexpectedly. If Gimilkhad was still alive when Tar-Palantir died, the rebellion against Tar-Miriel would have looked very different. You might end up with Pharazon and Miriel as opposing rulers in a civil war, with Miriel taking refuge in Andunie...)

hS

[Urwen]

But "if X was in this specific different situation, how would they have turned out differently?" is a fun question (as is the reverse: "how would X's situation have to change to get them to turn out in this way?"). Numenor was a pretty nasty place by Tar-Miriel's time, and I'm not at all sure small shifts would make much of a difference. If the King's Men are powerful, and Pharazon is their leader, it's very hard to give Miriel the sceptre.

(The simplest shift might actually be to kill her father sooner! Pharazon was in Middle-earth until a few years earlier, when his father died unexpectedly. If Gimilkhad was still alive when Tar-Palantir died, the rebellion against Tar-Miriel would have looked very different. You might end up with Pharazon and Miriel as opposing rulers in a civil war, with Miriel taking refuge in Andunie...)

hS


Pharazon could have been removed permanently too. All in takes is one individual slipping in, slitting his throat in his sleep, and slipping out. His death would mean the sceptre would fall to his closest living relative: his wife. Namarie, Pharazon. Hello, redemption. One of Lords of Andunie could have done this. They would be ready to sacrifice their lives to protect Numenor.