Do you think it's okay to research Middle-earth?

[Annantar]

Altight, I know this is crazy, but the other day I was on here (what I'm basicly doing now), but my mom had said to me "can't you just let it be a story". And it got me REALLY thinking....like isn't enjoying the books enough? But I love Middle-earth sooo much! But yet, I do believe that tolkien wanted some things just for him. Maybe he didn't want us to know everyhting. Like in the books; It seems to me that he wants the Dwarf language to be pretty secret, but yet poeple seem to dig futher into it. Even though I continue to try understand as much as I posibly can (because the places and characters; I have grown to love so much). But do u believe that some things in middle earth should remain mysteries? Or do you believe that Tolkien would want everyone to know everything great about middle-earth that he created?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 10:26 AM January 07, 2004: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[mark12_30]

There are some things TOlkien intentionally left mysterious. Tom Bombadil is a good example.

And yet, there were plenty of other things that he explained a great deal more than anyone (at the time) thought necessary. Some things he delighted in explaining, some things he delighted in hiding. All part of "sub-creation", I guess.

THere is a point where each of us steps back, and says, "It's a great story; let it BE a great story." But that means more or less to each one of us.

I'm not the only one on this forum who's had their life changed by this "great story". In the end, I was born again, largely because of the desire for holiness, truth, and beauty that I learned from both TOlkien and C. S. Lewis. So-- what does "Let it be a good story" mean to me...? It was such a good story, it changed my whole life.

THere are threads such as

LOTR and your Weltanschauung (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001027#000029) that discuss this. Also check out coming of age club (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=000840&p=1) for some other histories.

Have fun at the downs. The story is just a story-- but it's changed more lives than just mine.

[doug*platypus]

Good question! One that you'll probably ask yourself time and time again as you venture around the Downs. I think that most of us here have a tendency to over-analyse the books (and probably a lot of other things) from time to time, occasionally to their detriment.

But the wonderful thing is that the deeper you delve into Tolkien's Middle-Earth, the more rewarding it is. It's not a fantasy like The Sword of Shannara or the Diablo games, which are extremely superficial and don't stand up to much scrutiny. Tolkien created an extremely deep world, and I think you'll find that the more you read into it (especially with the help of others) the more you will enjoy it.

It may not be as intricate as a real history, but it's pretty durn close. And it is not just a book. Many books exist that can't be used in the same sentence with the word "just".

[Lord of Angmar]

I personally love to delve deeper into the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, but not necessarily as much from the angle of "Can I find out as many obscure facts as I can?" but rather from the angle of 'deeper' discussions about the morals, religious undertones and modern applications of the themes in Tolkien's works. I do not think Tolkien would disapprove of that, as long as the discussion does not become overly interpretational or crossover into the realm of discussion of any original allegorical intentions in Tolkien's writing.

There are some things that I do not think Tolkien would have wished for us to learn or discuss, and these are things that I have seen discussed before; things like the exact lengths of Ent-strides and the Elven menstrual cycles (search for "Elf Menses" in the Books forum and I think a topic from a while back will come up). These things, in my opinion (and I believe in the Professor's opinion as well, though I do not qualify to speak on his behalf) detract from the prison-escapist fantastical reality of Middle-earth.

I will leave you with this Tolkien quote, which you may interpret as you will:

In Dasent's words I would say: “We must be satisfied with the soup that is set before us, and not desire to see the bones of the ox out of which it has been boiled.” Though, oddly enough, Dasent by “the soup” meant a mishmash of bogus pre-history founded on the early surmises of Comparative Philology; and by “desire to see the bones” he meant a demand to see the workings and the proofs that led to these theories. By “the soup” I mean the story as it is served up by its author or teller, and by “the bones” its sources or material—even when (by rare luck) those can be with certainty discovered. But I do not, of course, forbid criticism of the soup as soup.

Cheers,
Angmar

[ainur]

Some people see a magician and are satisfied and entertained by the illusions themselves. Others see the same thing and want to know how the illusions were done. I think most people (including myself) fall somewhere in between. In the Tolkien quote provided by Lord of Angmar above, Tolkien seems to be saying that a good magician doesn't reveal his tricks, and a good audience doesn't probe too deeply to discover them.

So how deeply is too deeply? I guess that's up to you. Some people read everything Tolkien wrote (whether he published it or not) to learn as much as they can. Others prefer to stick exclusively with the books he published himself. Most people fall somewhere in between.

If your goal is similar to Lord of Angmar's above (a position I happen to agree with) then learn as much as you can about Tolkien himself, about the philosophies that inspired him to make the creative decisions that he made. Then discuss them here or (if you're lucky) with similarly interested friends and you will gain a much deeper understanding of Tolkien's literature and of literature in general. If your interest is Middle-Earth trivia--go for it! but beware. You will find many direct contradictions. I don't even consider The Silmarillion to be canon since Tolkien never had the chance to finalize the editing process that created it. (It' a great story though!--Just take the facts in it with a grain of salt.)

[master_of_puppets]

i've asked myself this as well. i think in some ways to apprechiate LOTR as fully as you can you do need to probe a little further into it, find out a bit more of the background than is immediately accessable. but that doesnt mean you cant apprechiate it being ignorant to most of the additional facts, just in a different way per say.

when i first got into the books i took it to new levels of obcession because i fell completely in love with it. which meant, for me, delving as deeply into Tolkien's world as i could. i am somewhat of a fountain for random Tolkien facts, which has earned me some obscure respect from friends and family i suppose. the point is, i really wanted to know the information and in that case i think then its good to read up on the background. however, dont bother if you're just doing it because you feel you ought to.

generally LOTR changed my life just on face value- and i have Tolkein to thank for that.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:18 PM January 06, 2004: Message edited by: master_of_puppets ]

[Failivrin]

I generally like to delve deeper so I can see how the stories evloved. I am not particularly interested in the applicability sides of the stories, but i do like to see characters in all their different incarnations. I like to see how the names changed and i like to see Tolkien's drawings and i like to see original samples of Tengwar and so on.

I think you can go as far as you wish really as i don't personally believe that Tolkien would have had any particular objection to us reading what he wrote down. I think the things he wanted to keep mysterious, he just didn't write so much about.

[Linaeve]

Personally, I think it's okay, as long as you don't let it take up your whole life (of course, theoretically there wouldn't be anything wrong with that, but realistically . . . well . . .).

I like researching Tolkien because I'm fascinated by the origins of things (I love researching word origins, for instance. Did you know that in Chinese, the phrase for 'I'll be there in a minute' literally translates to 'As soon as I get on the horse, I'll come'? Fascinating stuff). Aside from that bit, I also feel like I can never get enough Tolkien smilies/smile.gif

[Lathriel]

I think it is okay. However leave the things the author left as a mystery.
That is what authors do, they want the readers to use their own imagination and therefore they don't tell you everything.
These mysteries are there too so that you don't immediatly dismiss the book but think about it after reading it.

[Finwe]

I greatly enjoy everything about Middle-earth, even to the point where my parents constantly admonish me that I'm driving people away, by being so "obsessed." To speak truly, I stopped caring what they, or anyone else, think. I love Middle-earth because it gives me approachable truths and ideals that I feel that I can attain in my life. Realizing that Frodo and Aragorn have their own weaknesses, yet still manage to overcome them at the end, helps me realize that I don't have to be perfect for myself, or for anyone else. I'm not presented with seemingly perfect heroes and ideals, and I'm glad, because frankly, those intimidate me. After reading the Books, I feel like I can actually get up and do something for anything that I believe in. It gives me the courage to stand up and do what is right. Would you want anyone to take that away from you? Your parents (or your friends as a matter of fact) might not understand that drive or desire, and they never will. Each person reacts to different situations in different ways. After reading the Books, they may just feel that it's another story, without anything special to interest them. My parents are like that. Don't worry at all about them, just keep enjoying Middle-earth as much as you want to.

[The Dark Elf]

perhaps Tolkein wanted to make it an open ended book, not to make more of the series, but for the readers to imagine what couldve happened afterwards. Example: Rohan attacks Gondor because of land. tolkein wanted to enrich the readers by making them want to think up things that couldve happened and will happen. Theres no such thing as going too far into a book or series.

[zb]

If you read the prologues to LotR, the Hobbit, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, etc, you'll see that Tolkien 'pretends' (for lack of a better word) he's translating real histories, which is related to the fact that he was very careful about very small details:
(H)e made endless calculations of time and distance, drawing up elaborate charts concerning events in the story, shwoing dates, the days of the week, the hours, and sometimes even the direction of the wind and phase of the moon
("The New Hobbit", J.R.R. Tolkien: A biography, Humphrey Carter)

I guess this points to research as a respectable end.

(for the coincidence? files: I wrote an imaginary conversation (http://lux-lucis.net/zoe/ramblings/000465.htm) about this sort of topic today. [apologies in advance if a link to something on my own site is inappropriate outside my sig; feel free to kill it smilies/smile.gif])