Hurin and despair

[Lalaith]

There's been something troubling me ever since Lindil told me about the 'other' version of Hurin's end and the ruin of Doriath (in that the version in the Sil. is in fact Christopher and not JRR Tolkien.
In the professor's original, Hurin is not soothed by Melian when he comes with harsh words before Thingol's throne, but continues to rage around, causing indirect destruction to all around him and finally throwing himself into a river.
Now, I am no theologian but I'm pretty sure that despair is considered the worst of mortal sins and that Catholicism is especially hot on this point. To have Hurin die in mistaken pride and despair is then, according to Tolkien's beliefs, condemning him to damnation in the afterlife. This is worse even than the terrible death of Turin, who although he took his own life, had reached some kind of understanding of events before his death.
Considering Hurin's extraordinary loyalty, courage and steadfastness, this seems *very* hard and grim a conclusion.
Does anyone if there are any records of Tolkien's own thoughts on Hurin's end, and what literary function he was portraying? Or is the tale of Hurin perhaps an expression of Tolkien's bleakest and most pessimistic side?

[davem]

Don't know if its relevant, but I think Tolkien's comment on Frodo's 'failure' comes in. Tolkien basically, as I understand it, says that you have to judge the individual on their original intention, & what they had to face, before you judge them as 'failing'.
In the end, Frodo did fail in his quest to destroy the ring, but as Tolkien points out, no-one could have suceeded, as the task, & what Frodo had had to go through simply to get the ring to the fire, was astounding enough.
To turn to Hurin, He had been slowly destroyed at the hands of Morgoth for, what, over thirty years. His mind was virtually destroyed. He was seeing the world & events through Morgoth's eyes, & Morgoth's 'vision' was essentially so corrupted that he couldn't see objectively, even if he'd chosen to.
I don't think Tolkien is making any judgement on Hurin. Maybe he's making a comment on how even the greatest of us can be corrupted, against our will.
Having said that, all the family seem to suffer excessively from pride, & it could be argued that it was a case of Morgoth using that, rather than 'cursing' Turin, or the rest of his family with 'bad luck'. One does wonder whether that family was going to suffer in much the same way as they did even of Morgoth hadn't got directly involved.
Perhaps Hurin's 'despair' was the inevitable effect of such a proud man being so long impotent. If anything Hurin's pride wasn't humbled by the tragedy of his family, it was twisted into hate, contempt & despair.
I don't think Tolkien was so much interested in holding Hurin up for condemnation as in showing the effect of pride.
But then again, I'm not sure Tolkien saw his 'heroes' in a 'Christian' heroic light. They aren't Christian heroes, They're Northern' Pagan heroes, along the lines of Beowulf. Maybe Tolkien is making some point about men in the absence' of Christianity.
Anyway, all that just 'occured' to me, & poured out as I wrote. Maybe its complete nonsense smilies/smile.gif

[Numenorean]

Having said that, all the family seem to suffer excessively from pride, & it could be argued that it was a case of Morgoth using that, rather than 'cursing' Turin, or the rest of his family with 'bad luck'

I like what your saying here, but after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad what else did Morwen, Turin and Hurin have to keep them going but pride in their House and people? Turins pride and passion cause him and others ill, but pity is never far from his mind either. Perhaps the Pride factor was crucial to Morgoths curse, but it may have also been crucial to Hurin, Morwen, Turin and Neinor surviving as long as they all did under such dire circumstances?

Considering Hurin's extraordinary loyalty, courage and steadfastness, this seems *very* hard and grim a conclusion.


I agree Lalaith, it seems like the grimest most shattering conclusion anyone could have. And this bitter despair was Hurins 'reward' for some of the most heroic acts ever written, such soulcrushing bleakness after so much hope before the Nirnaeth, moves me everytime. But like Davem said:

I don't think Tolkien is making any judgement on Hurin. Maybe he's making a comment on how even the greatest of us can be corrupted, against our will.

[Aiwendil]

To have Hurin die in mistaken pride and despair is then, according to Tolkien's beliefs, condemning him to damnation in the afterlife.

Even if Tolkien intended Hurin's despair to be some kind of moral flaw, I don't think he would have been condemned. The afterlife in Tolkien's legendarium is not quite like that in Catholicism - there is no hell (as far as anyone knows); all humans simply "seek elsewhither" and leave the world.

[davem]

Well, OK, pity is never far from Turin's heart, but generally his pity is directed at his own victims! ('Pity' spelt 'Oops!)
I can't help feeling that what we see in Hurin's family is the seed of what sprouted in Numenor. Its ofermod, overweening/reckless pride (see the essay in Tolkien's Legendarium, Turin's Ofermod).
Pride is the central motivation of the deeds of Hurin, Turin & Morwen, less so, but still present in Nienor.
Maybe it was their pride that enabled them to survive so long, but considering what they did with the time they had, maybe it would have been better for them if they hadn't lived as long as they did.
I think the core issue Tolkien is exploring is the difference between pride & ofermod, natural, necessary, self respect & hubris. The whole family pushed PRIDE to such an extreme it destroyed them. Turin's constant desire to take charge in every situation, when he knows he's been 'cursed' by Morgoth, when every time he's had power he's brought about disaster, including the death of people he loves, & yet, every time he gets the opportunity, he's again taking over. He never learns. That's his curse, bloody minded stubborness, refusal to learn what a proud idiot he actually is. That doesn't mean his story isn't a great tragedy - it is, but maybe mainly because its self inflicted. He uses the cop out 'the 'devil' made me do it - it wasn't me that killed those people, it was Morgoth. Don't blame me, its this curse!' But knowing he was cursed, that everything he did would be corrupted, why did he just go on trying to take over.
Er, this has become a rant about Turin. Sorry, completely off thread.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"Well, OK, pity is never far from Turin's heart, but generally his pity is directed at his own victims! ('Pity' spelt 'Oops!)"


smilies/biggrin.gif Loved that!

IMO the Curse of Morgoth works through the weaknesses of its victims. Morwen is certainly proud - it is foolish pride that keeps her from accepting Thingol and Melian's offer of refuge, but also false hope of Hurin's return.

Turin's main fault is less 'ofermod', though he has that, than self-pity. He's so absorbed in his own griefs and wrongs and the desire to avenge them that he has no attention to spare for other people. Though it must be admitted he can be kind on on the rare occasions he does notice somebody else's problems.

I also think he's suffering from a need to 'live up' to his father. And Hurin, by successfully defying Morgoth's power in his own stronghold, has set a standard no Man can match.

Add in a hot temper, which he may have gotten from his father, and poor impulse control and you've got a recipe for repeated disaster. In all fairness though, Turin does seem somewhat chastened during his stay in Brethil. Certainly he shows more caution than he has previously, if not more sensitivity.

As for Hurin, I've never seen pride as the motivator for his rampage but rather grief and anger, and a failure to realize he's being manipulated by Morgoth until Melian opens his eyes.

BTW if I recall correctly all versions of his story end with Hurin disappearing. His death by suicide is apparently a storyteller's guess since it is prefaced by 'it is said'. Personally I've never believed it, not of Hurin Thalion.

[Lalaith]

Davem, your points are not off topic at all as far as I'm concerned. The whole pride/despair issue is important through the whole of Narn i Hin Hurin, and you can't talk about Hurin without talking about the fates of his children. And when I was studying such things in the dim and distant past, I seem to remember that pride and despair were considered two sides of the same coin, in mediaeval and renaissance literature at least. I agree that Tolkien intended his heroes to be pagan ones, but at the same time, while I am in general not one of those who see biblical and Christian themes in the stories, I do think that Tolkien's own moral beliefs must have come into this tale somewhere. Davem, your point about the showing the lack of Christianity is a very interesting one and I shall mull over it.
As far as Hurin and his children were concerned, I don't think they suffered from pride until everything else was taken away from them.

I found this excerpt, btw, although I'm not sure from whence it originates. It's about the Last Battle and the slaying of Morgoth:
In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwë, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the Black Sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
...no Man it [the prophecy of Mandos] names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar
So Turin is considered blessed, but not Hurin.
Morwen, the point that concerned me was that Melian opening the eyes of Hurin was apparently an invention of Christopher Tolkien. In the professor's own version he storms off, still in a state of deception.
On the subject of compassion, I believe the Silmarillion describes Turin as being easily moved to pity, and taking after his father in this respect. Morwen, meanwhile, was as hard on others as she was on herself.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Unfortunately we will never know what the Professor intended to happen to Hurin in Doriath as he stopped writing the 'Wanderings of Hurin' after the destruction of Brethil, (in which it must be said in all fairness the conflicts and desires of assorted Haladin are as much to blame as the actions of Hurin himself).

In an earlier version of the Annals of Beleriand, (Lost Road) he has Hurin departing Doriath with bitter words, but by whom and directed to whom is unclear, (according to the earliest version in Lost Tales the bitter words were between 'Urin' and 'Tinwelint' and quite frankly did neither credit).

What is really interesting is in all versions Hurin's final fate remains a mystery to the Elves.

[davem]

I think pride is a central issue, though. Hurin 'proudly' defies Morgoth, the most powerful being in Arda. That effectively starts the tragedy.
You can go right back to Feanor. So many of the central events & themes of the Legendarium seem to come down to that. We have to remember that for a Christian pride is one of the seven deadly sins. In the Magnificat we have the line 'He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.'
This is central, I feel. Tolkien never esteems pride, & always sees it 'going before a fall'.
Pride is always a sin for Tolkien, so whenever I read of a character displaying pride, I'm expecting disaster to follow.

[Lalaith]

Morwen, thank you for that input. I've only read some of the Lost Tales so it's good to have background on the development of the story. And yes, it is interesting that the fate of Hurin is a mystery.
Davem, I believe you're right about pride, this was not just one of the seven deadly sins, it was the chief one.
But what of my excerpt about Turin? Does anyone know when it was written and in what context? And is Turin being 'accounted one of the sons of the Valar' somehow linked to Tuor being 'alone among men accounted one of the Firstborn'?

[Morwen Tindomerel]

The 'accounted among the Valar' thing is from the earliest versions of the Legend in Lost Tales, and IMO makes little sense.

I mean *what* has Turin done to earn such a privilege? having failed to master himself and his doom and killed himself in a fit of despair, (mortal sin that is). Indications are Tolkien dropped that particular concept as his vision of the Valar, the Fates of Men, etc. evolved.

However later versions do retain the 'legend' of Turin returning from death, (Halls of Mandos or beyond the Circles of the World) and slaying Morgoth at the End. I find that hard to buy too, but maybe Turin improves after a few thousand millenia of purgatory.

As for the issue of pride; Frodo also answers Faramir 'proudly' to Sam's, and apparently Tolkien's approval. I think in this case, as in Hurin's, 'proudly' is a description of their comportment, expressing both courage and determination to resist, not of of their inner state which must have been one of controlled terror.

According to my Catholic Dictionary the sin of pride expresses itself as contempt for lawful authority and for others. Hurin shows no sign of any such failing previous to his captivity, his behavior afterward is more questionable but I believe rooted in a bitter, (and not entirely unjustified) sense of betrayal rather than 'pride'.

This is not to say Hurin is entirely innocent of wrong. He is certainly obsessed with vengeance, which however understandable given his circumstances still does him no credit.

[ May 09, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Lalaith]

I personally find it hard to forgive Turgon for not letting Hurin into Gondolin.
"Remember the Fen of Serech.."
Precisely.

[Findegil]

To the topic in general I think that Húrin was never condemned. When we look at the first Version of the story in The Lost Tales than Úrin and Maevin come to the halls of Mandos and learn that both their children's were not admitted to enter. Then they plead for them. Which means clearly that they themselves were admitted to enter.

I personally can well believe in the despair of Húrin and his suicide. But that makes for me the scene in Menegroth were Melian opened his eyes absurd. If Húrin could stand that eye opener (reconsidering his faults - specially the betrayal of Turgon by shouting his name in the face of the entrance of Gondolin) than he would have outlived any further blow. (What can be more terrible, than to understand that in a small moment of despair you have made totally senseless all the dome you brought upon you and your kin?) So for me Húrin in the end learned what he had done just before his death. By which way that happened we are not told. But we may guess. All that follows is of course not even hinted in the sources, but her it goes: For me Húrin left Thingol with bitter words. Obviously he wandered to the west. What could he have wanted by the see? He was deeply learned the lore of Gondolin, so may be he did know about the conversation of Ulmo and Turgon in Vinyamar. If so we may consider that he walk to Vinyamar to find the armour left there to get entrance to Gondolin by it. When he reached Vinyamar the armour was long gone since his nephew Tour had taken it. In that moment, I would think, he recognised his cry in Dimbar as delivering the position of Gondolin to Morgoth. And since Ulmo had already sent a warning to Gondolin, he believed that he had brought ruin upon the city and the King for whom he and his kin had so greatly suffered.
That for me would be the moment of ultimate despair. And Húrins death in the see would follow it immediately since the see is not fare.

Posted by Lalaith:
I personally find it hard to forgive Turgon for not letting Hurin into Gondolin.
"Remember the Fen of Serech.."
Precisely.

Well, yes that is true for Turgon. But if we consider the right sequence of events than Húrin search entrance to Gondolin before he had found Morwen, which would have made her death even more sad. And in addition Húrin left a group of Men from Hithlum that had taken him as lord and helped him to survive in the wild with out even a word.

Respectfully
Findegil

[GlingleglingleglingleFairy]

quote:
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To have Hurin die in mistaken pride and despair is then, according to Tolkien's beliefs, condemning him to damnation in the afterlife.
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Why is religion even relavant here? I see no sin in Hurin's pride, and surely to "condemn him to damnation" after all his despair is not very Christian. (not that I would really know, though.) I think Tolkien wrote abuot Hurin to show how real everyone is, and how we aren't perfect.

[davem]

OK, Morwen, but when Frodo answers Faramir 'proudly', maybe Tolkien is making a ststement about the effect of the Ring on him.
My feeling is that, as Tolkien stated, every word he wrote in LotR was thought about & considered. I think whenever he used the word pride he was making a point.
The more I think about the story of the family of Hurin, the more I see it as all coming down to pride. The whole family clearly believe they know best in every situation. They refuse advice, from whoever gives it. They refuse to accept their loss of power & prestige. That doesn't make them 'bad', but it does mean they completely mess up the lives of everyone they come into contact with.
Also, as far as the Christian dimension goes. Tolkien was a Christian, his world view was shaped by Christianity, & his value system was shaped & determined by it. For him, pride wasn't wrong just because his church told him it was, so that he could invent a secondary world where it didn't apply. He believed pride was a sin, & always, in whatever world, it would bring pain & death.
The Narn is a tragedy. The whole family suffer terribly, but I think Tolkien is clearly saying that a good part of what they suffered was brought on by themselves.
Look at Hurin, a desolate, lost, bereaved old man, but still swaggering around, demanding respect (which he deserved). I think Tolkien is constantly coming back to the issue of pride, right through the Legendarium. From Feanor down to Boromir & Saruman.
I think its also significant that Hurin's family is destroyed by the two greatest symbols of pride - Morgoth & Glaurung, as if they're confronting their own 'sin' writ large, & being destroyed by it.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Hurin is not quite in his right mind, how can he be after twenty-eight years as Morgoth's prisoner? *And* he is definitely shadowed, not evil in himself but carrying Morgoth's malice with him and infecting others, (Tolkien himself says this several times).

Morgoth's curse works by exacerbating faults and failings that are already there. Morwen's foolish pride, Turin's violent impulsive temper, and above all Hurin's grief and anger over the fate of his family.

It is however significant that Hurin is still open to reason. Manthor's kindness and sympathy calm him and make him rational again. Had they been able to continue their conversation events in Brethil may have turned out quite differently.

Unlike his son the fault is not all on Hurin's side. He *is* insulted and mistreated, even the people of Brethil think their Chieftain's behavior outrageous. Yes he could have shown a little more reason and restraint but given what he's been through that's expecting too much even of a Hurin Thalion.

[Lalaith]

Given names are important indicators I think. Hurin is "the Steadfast" - not a name that conjures up images of pride, hubris or ofurmod. Turin in contrast is not 'steadfast', he changes his name very frequently.
One thing Tolkien did, which the heroic literature he was imitating often did not, was give us emotional and developmental hinterland. Turin's childhood was hideously traumatic and his mother cold and distant, and quite incapable of offering the little boy the comfort he needed. The adult that comes out of these experiences feels very convincing, psychologically speaking.
Incidently I do somehow feel very fond of Morwen despite her shortcomings. Hard times produce hard people.

[Numenorean]

I mean *what* has Turin done to earn such a privilege? having failed to master himself and his doom

Morwen, I always felt that the core of Turins being was most poingnantly revealed during his childhood. His handing over of his fine Elf-wrought dagger birthday present to Sador the lame woodwright, and his words of justification to Hurin & Morwen offered what I beleive the truest indicator of the kind of man he would have turned into had doom and Morgoth not corrupted his path:
U.T.(P.64)
'Do you then scorn your father's gift?' said Morwen; and again Turin answered: 'No, but I love Sador, and feel pity for him.'
Then Hurin said: 'All three gifts were your own to give, Turin: love, pity, and the knife the least.'

Turins actions and words up to the eve of the Nirnaeth show the foundations of a wise, thoughtful and caring heir to the House of Hador, despite the bitter loss of Lalaith he was still compassionate and uncorrupted at this time.
The effect of the post-Arnoediad situation on Turins character development must have been massive, not just psychologically. Aside from the mental trauma and the utter fall of Hador, maybe the Doom that Morgoth laid on him had a real and physical role to play in Turins mindset aswell?
Perhaps Turins vaunted elevation to be counted amongst the Sons of the Valar at the End, was a sense of natural justice from JRRT? The marring of Turins innocence and potential by Morgoth is a crime so great (reminiscent of Feanors marring?) that maybe there just had to be a reckoning, as it denied not just Turin but all Men a noble and Great Lord. These are just some random thoughts I've had as I've re-read the Narn over the past couple of days, so I apologise if this sound a bit flakey and off-topic.


His death by suicide is apparently a storyteller's guess since it is prefaced by 'it is said'. Personally I've never believed it, not of Hurin Thalion.


Me neither Morwen, he was hardcore, steadfast. I think if he was going to 'do himself in' He would've done it by the graves of Turin and Morwen, but he didn't!

[ May 11, 2003: Message edited by: Numenorean ]

[davem]

Actually, I can see Hurin killing himself, but not out of despair as such, more out of an attitude of 'I'll show them!'.
For all the tragedy of the family, there is something self destructive about them all. Maybe a result of living in such times. But then, we find the same thing in the Rohirrim - 'Death, Death, Death, Death take us all.' As if they've decided that if you can't live how you want then you'd rather just be dead. But where is the Christian ideal of surrender to the will of God?

[Guinevere]

Thank you, Lalaith, for bringing up this topic!
This has also bothered me ever since I read the Silmarillion.
I have read all your contributions with the greatest interest and agree especially with the opinions of Morwen Tindomerel, the Numenorean and Lalaith.

I agree that Turin (and Morwen) in some measure brings trouble on himself by his pride and rashness, but I cannot see such characterflaws in Hurin. He is only valiant and loyal and has in no way deserved such a terrible fate and finally to be forsaken by everyone and end his own life in complete hopelessness and despair.

After having read Narn i hin Hurin where the characters are more developped, the tragedy and injustice of Hurins fate touches me even more.

What I keep asking myself is why Tolkien wrote such a discouraging story? Is it, as Lalaith suggested, an expression of his bleakest and most pessimistic side?

It's especially the contrast to the mood in LotR that strikes me. In LotR you get the comforting feeling that there is a meaning behind it all, a merciful prividence. The sacrifices that are made there are not meaningless, and courage, loyalty and pity are rewarded. It's just this balance between melancholy and hope that makes me love LotR so much.

How can the same author write something so hopeless??

Even in the Silmarillion the Valar interfere on some occasions with mercy (As in the case of Maedhros, or Beren and Luthien etc) But there is no pity or mercy, not even a sign of hope for Hurin who in my eyes should have deserved the greatest reward for his steadfastness before Morgoth.

Well, I guess there is no answer to these questions. It really is a pity Tolkien never completed his work!
All the same, it was a comfort to see that other people have similar thoughts about it (and can put it much better into words than I.)

[lindil]

The trouble for Hurin [and thus his family] began when instead of holding his tounge against Morgoth he 'dares to mock him'.

Hurin spoke to Morgoth with pride and understandably defiance, but silence would have seved him better even though ti would have been less 'emotionally satisfying'.

But his especial flaunting of Morgoth's dissipation and ever-decreasing power, was I think foolish, even though true.

This was sure to provoke a contest of wills and power and Hurin was sure to lose.
And he did. And not just him, but ultimately his family, Gondolin, Doriath, Brethil and Nargothrond!

It all flowed from his feeling a need to defy Morgoth to his face.

As for Hurin's end I have always seen Melian's words [which I take as canon despite their secondary origin] to him opening his eyes and for a final moment softening his heart, as evidence of the 'light of Melian' and it's effects on the last part of his sopul still open to truth, but he willfully chose to leave Menegroth and Melian's influence and then was cast back into his old despair, and doubtless morgoth was aiding this from afar, so his suicide is like his son's, in knowledge of the truth but so crushed and pained by Morgoth's curse and it's devastating effects on all he has known that he is left with no hope. In a sad twist he forgets the very words of hope in the Valar he pridefully cast into Morgoth's teeth.

To me the narn/Hurin saga is the inverse of Beren and Luthien and the Ring.

In the latter, love and a humble sense of duty and true friendship and honor win the day and overcome impossible odds. But with the Narn pride and self-will rules at every critical juncture.

Morwen did not obey Hurin and flee right away. Turin did not follow Melian's nor mablung's nor Beleg's gracious advice in the Narn. Nor Gwindor's etc...

In a sense the Narn overtook the rest of the Simarillion in detail and scope and the rest never caught back up, we are left seeing most of the Narn in vivid detail, especially Hurin in Brethil where the tension, irony and palpability of Morgoth's curse becomes more visceral than anything else JRRT wrote.

So Hurin I think did cast himself into the sea, or perhaps just sat staring at it till he died and fell into it.

Because of his pride coupled with the curse, he could bnot simply ask Eru to forgive him his follies and betrayels of all he held dearest [Turgon especially]. Even his wrath at Brethil's supposed affront to Morwen was stronger than his desire to see her buried in a fitting manner, this is clearly shown in his confrontation with the Haldad.

------------

Great thread Lailath.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Excuse me?

Don't get me wrong, I like Beren as well as anybody but his bearing towards Thingol was *anything* but humble! and he most certainly did mock him. Mind you he was provoked and his reaction quite justified, (he isn't the one being prejudiced and unreasonable!) but he's no plaster saint.

I mean maybe Hurin defies Morgoth to his face but Beren deliberately walks into his stronghold to fulfill an incredibly over-ambitious and unrealistic vow. Not to mention deciding to confront his hostile father-in-law without a Silmaril. If Hurin Thalion is 'proud' then so is Beren Erchamion.

Hurin earned Morgoth's enmity by successfully resisting his will. What he said didn't make any difference, that resistance alone was enough to provoke the Dark Lord. But surely you're not suggesting he should have given in?

[Kuruharan]

The trouble for Hurin [and thus his family] began when instead of holding his tounge against Morgoth he 'dares to mock him'.

Hurin spoke to Morgoth with pride and understandably defiance, but silence would have seved him better even though ti would have been less 'emotionally satisfying'.


Beggin' your pardon, but it seems likely that Morgoth would have cursed Hurin and company no matter what he did. Hurin was an important individual who had (or Morgoth thought he had) something that he wanted (the location of Gondolin). Silence on this matter would probably have infuriated the already venomous Morgoth just as much as taunting. The results could possibly have been the same. Hurin's troubles really started when he was taken alive in the first place.

[Aiwendil]

One thing I like about Tolkien is that, for all that modernist critics may bewail his absolutist view of good and evil, there are many shades of grey in his works. Even in action or speech that is wrong or at fault, there is often some element of right or truth. A prime example of this subtlety is the curse upon the children of Hurin.

The prime example of this ambiguity is in the tension between fate and free will that operates in the Narn (it's similar to the tension in LotR between internal evil and external evil). Nearly all of Turin's misfortunes seem, on the surface, to be solely the result of his own actions and choices. If we were given the Narn without the introduction concerning Morgoth's curse, we could very well imagine that Turin is simply a tragic hero along the lines of, say, Hamlet - that is, that his misfortunes are all the result of an internal flaw. The story would work well enough this way.

But we know that there is something else at work. We know that the tragedies in Turin's life are the result, in some way, of Morgoth's curse. This, of course, doesn't invalidate the fact that Turin's ills are the results of his own decisions. But neither does Turin's weakness invalidate the controlling power of Morgoth's curse.

Hurin's defiance of Morgoth is a scene wrought with similar subtlety. We start with some fairly predictable stuff - Morgoth declares himself to be the Elder King, Hurin does not believe him, etc. Hurin scores something of a victory with "You are not the Lord of Men, and shall not be, though all Arda and Menel fall in your dominion . . ." Morgoth's reply doesn't seem to quite meet the challenge. It is now already a very poignant scene with real force within Tolkien's mythology. But it is the end of the scene that I find the most deeply affecting, and the most chilling. Morgoth: "You shall see and you shall confess that I do not lie," followed by Morgoth's setting Hurin upon Thangorodrim and cursing his kin. The chilling part is that, for all the valour and real wisdom in Hurin's words, Morgoth is right. Morgoth really can curse Hurin's kin; he really can come at Hurin through them; he really does seem to be, in some sense, master of the fates of Arda. None of this invalidates the truth in Hurin's words, and the rightness of Hurin's defiance; but neither does Hurin's defiance invalidate Morgoth's power.

I think that this is a very Norse result. One of the things that seems to have attracted Tolkien to northern mythology is that the world was doomed to end in catastrophe, in the Ragnarok; not only was final victory not assured for the heroes, there was no chance of final victory. But in spite of this certainty of defeat, the heroes still did not give up; they persisted in fighting evil despite the certain knowledge that they could not win. Of course, the situation is quite different in Tolkien; but on some level, I think we can observe the same thing in the constant struggle of his characters against "the long defeat".

Lindil - I'm also not so sure that Morgoth's curse was a direct result of Hurin's words. Morgoth was primarily interested in the location of Gondolin, and he mentions the possibility of coming at all Hurin's "accursed house" early in the conversation. I also don't see excessive pride in Hurin's words. He only asserts his faith in the Valar, and that Morgoth is not the lord of Arda. I don't think he is at fault in his defiance. But I do think that it is the same tendency toward defiance, the same stubbornness, that causes Turin do make the wrong decision time after time, and Hurin as well, after his release.

I don't think that pride in itself is, within the Legendarium, a failing. The adjective is often used with no negative connotations. It is excessive pride that is a failing. But I think that the way in which excessive pride is a failing is slightly different from the way we in the modern world tend to see it. We often think of pride as a failing because it leads to arrogance, selfishness, or a false sense of superiority or entitlement. But I think that in Middle-earth (again probably influenced by Norse mythology) it is the overconfidence or foolhardiness that comes from pride that is the vice. This is why it is not contradictory for Turin to be both proud and filled with pity: pride and pity are not opposed. Turin's excessive pride consists in his overconfidence in his own abilities and, sometimes, unwillingness to accept aid. Along with this came a certain sense of duty. Because (as he thought) he could defy the might of Morgoth, he must defy it; hen Saeros insults Turin's kin, he feels the duty to defend them by retaliating against Saeros. But Hurin's pride, in his words to Morgoth, seems to be not to be excessive.

About the Narn being the inverse of Beren and Luthien and The Lord of the Rings - a very interesting idea and an apt comparison. Of course, there is honour and true friendship in the Narn. But whereas in The Lord of the Rings hope continually wins out over despair, in the Narn despair comes out of apparent hope.

Still (and in another example of Tolkien's subtlety), at every juncture in the Narn, though the wrong choices are made, those wrong choices seem reasonable, or at least understandable. Morwen does not immediately flee. But after all, she had no news of Hurin's death; what if he was still alive and free, and would return? We know that Morwen made the wrong decision, but we can see why and we can even sympathize with the decision. Turin makes a mockery of Saeros - clearly wrong. But Saeros did both insult his family and then attack him. We know that Turin's action is wrong, but at the same time part of us (well, part of me, at any rate) is glad to see Saeros get what was coming to him, as it were. We know that Turin's policy of open warfare is not the best strategy; yet his words in defence of it have force - ". . . victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only in what follow from it. But it is expedient also; for if you do nothing to halt him, all Beleriand will fall beneath his shadow before many years are passed, and then one by one he will smoke you out of your earths. And what then? A pitiable remnant will fly south and west, to cower on the shores of the Sea, caught between Morgoth and Ossë. Better then to win a time of glory, though it be shortlived; for the end will be no worse." His view is wrong, but his argument really does make sense. Moreover, just as with Morgoth's last words to Hurin, the things he asserts are true. All Beleriand does fall under Morgoth's shadow; one by one the Elves and Edain are smoked out of their hiding places; they do fly south and west, a pitiable remnant cowering on the shores of the sea. The only thing left out of his reckoning is Earendil - but how could he have predicted that? It's a microcosm of the whole long defeat/final hope situation: Morgoth's eventual victory = the certainty of the long defeat, Turin's defiance of him = the heroic resolve to fight evil in spite of the certainty of its final victory, Earendil = the final hope, lacking in Norse mythology but inherited in Tolkien from Christianity.

As for Hurin's end I have always seen Melian's words [which I take as canon despite their secondary origin] to him opening his eyes and for a final moment softening his heart, as evidence of the 'light of Melian' and it's effects on the last part of his sopul still open to truth, but he willfully chose to leave Menegroth and Melian's influence and then was cast back into his old despair, and doubtless morgoth was aiding this from afar, so his suicide is like his son's, in knowledge of the truth but so crushed and pained by Morgoth's curse and it's devastating effects on all he has known that he is left with no hope.


But Melian's healing words are not found in any of Tolkien's actual texts. As fitting as they seem, I don't take them as canon. Of course, there's no knowing how the story would have gone had The Wanderings of Hurin reached Doriath. The sense I get from Christopher's version is not that Hurin incorrectly leaves Menegroth and thus loses the light of Melian; rather, that he is freed entirely of Morgoth's spell, but now he understands fully what has happened and thus goes forth and kills himself - but as a free man. But none of Tolkien's versions have such a sugarcoated ending; though Hurin has never actually given in to Morgoth of his own will, he remains under the power of Morgoth's curse.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

You are forgetting the freedom of Men. Men are masters of their own fates and - in a certain ultimate sense more powerful than any Valar including the Dark Lord himself for Men can change the Music and alter the plans laid by the powers.

Turin signally fails to do this. The 'Master of Fate' *never* takes control of his destiny but lets himself be blown hither and thither by Morgoth's malice and his own passions. The most fatal of his errors is to listen to the deceptions of Glaurung and ignore the prophesy of his friend and benefactor Gwindor.

Dying Gwindor commands Turin to make amends for his role in the destruction of Nargothrond by saving Finduilas. Who, he predicts, will save Turin from his doom. And so she might have.

*Had* Turin followed duty and friendship instead of fear and suspicion and successfully rescued the princess and her fellow captives he would, naturally, have taken them to Doriath where he would have found his mother and sister safe and sound. And where, chastened and relieved, he might finally have been willing to acknowledge his errors and accept Melian's advice.

Hurin too lets his passions run away with him giving Morgoth's malice free reign. *BUT* unlike his son is capable of hearing reason and controlling himself. As I argue above had Manthor been able to complete his conversation with Hurin matters in Brethil would have turned out quite differently.

This is why I tend to accept Christopher's conclusion. If Hurin could be brought back to reason by Manthor how could Melian possibly fail? Nor do I believe he would then fall into suicidal despair.

No doubt he would bitterly regret his actions under the Shadow but he might well follow Manthor's advice and find some isolated place to live out the remainder of his days without bringing his curse on any one else or further bitterness on himself.

[Aiwendil]

The 'Master of Fate' *never* takes control of his destiny but lets himself be blown hither and thither by Morgoth's malice and his own passions.

But his failing is not like, for example, Hamlet's; it is not inaction. He does not let himself be blown about by Morgoth's malice. Indeed, he knows of the curse and is constantly struggling to escape it. It's just that he makes the wrong decisions toward that goal.

*Had* Turin followed duty and friendship instead of fear and suspicion

I don't think it's completely fair to characterize his two choices that way. It's not a simple matter of duty and friendship vs. fear and suspicion. His reason for going back to Hithlum is in fact a sense of duty and compassion for his family. His decision is not morally wrong; it is merely strategically wrong. Finduilas is the one at risk; she is the one that Turin has a chance to save. But he miscalculates, due to Glaurungs spell, and thinks that it would be more worthwhile to seek his mother and try to help her.

If Hurin could be brought back to reason by Manthor how could Melian possibly fail?

But Manthor did not remove the spell from Turin; he merely reasoned with him. In Christopher's version, Melian does more than simply reason with Hurin - she actually removes the darkness that Morgoth put upon him.

It just occurred to me that in JRRT's version, Hurin's suicide could very well be seen as having a heroic element; for in this way he finally ends Morgoth's control over him and ensures that no more evils will be wrought by him unwittingly. Indeed, he proves his words to Morgoth 28 years before: "Beyond the Circles of the World you shall not pursue those who refuse you."

[ October 15, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:
It just occurred to me that in JRRT's version, Hurin's suicide could very well be seen as having a heroic element; for in this way he finally ends Morgoth's control over him and ensures that no more evils will be wrought by him unwittingly. Indeed, he proves his words to Morgoth 28 years before: "Beyond the Circles of the World you shall not pursue those who refuse you."

That is realy good point! It gives even more sense to Húrins daeth than only dispair when releasing what he had done. Now he realse what he had done and that he was used by Morgoth in a cunning way. And than he cries out: "You will no longer make use of me! There is a way for me to leave your domion for ever. I will go to the one that created us both. He shall judge me know - and you later!" (That's is clearly overdone - but it shows the direction.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Lalaith]

I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed reading all these brilliant posts, they've given me so many new insights.
In a sense the Narn overtook the rest of the Simarillion in detail and scope and the rest never caught back up,
Lindil, I think you're spot on there.
Aiwendil, your analysis is masterly, but I'd quibble with just one point. As I remember, there *was* hope and life after Ragnarok: Baldur and the sons of Odin and Thor were the new gods, and a new race of men sprang up from a man and a woman who had hidden themselves from the destruction.
You're right though, that the tale tackles the question of fighting evil even when the struggle is futile. I personally find Hurin's stand against Morgoth entirely admirable, but the fact remains that in the Narn, evil conquers - as it, unfortunately, often does in real life. What makes it particularly tragic is that both 'outer' and 'inner' evil triumph: Hurin's family are not just killed, but they are destroyed spiritually and psychologically as well. (Except perhaps Morwen)
Btw, I wonder if there is any parallel between Job and Hurin?

[Morwen Tindomerel]

A little indecision would have been a good thing in Turin's case. Decisive action, when they are inevitably wrong actions, is no virtue.

Turin's problem is he never stopped to *think*, for example to wonder how Glaurung could know about Morwen and Nienor's plight in the first place - much less to doubt the dragon's motives for telling him this. Turin's efforts to avoid his curse were limited to changing his name, not his attitude or his behavior.

Manthor makes Hurin calm down and *think* and begin to act rationally again. unfortunately Hardang ruins the effort by drugging Hurin so Manthor can't continue the treatment. Melian too simply talked to him reasonably and sympathetically, helping him to calm down and see things straight. I very much doubt she used any kind of power, and even if she did it would have been as useless on Hurin as it was on his son *unless* he were still open to the truth. Melian didn't 'heal' Hurin, she helped him heal himself.

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

And than he cries out: "You will no longer make use of me! There is a way for me to leave your domion for ever. I will go to the one that created us both. He shall judge me know - and you later!" (That's is clearly overdone - but it shows the direction.)

Yes, that's something like what I had in mind. Of course, it's quite likely that Tolkien never intended it that way. But still, the fact is that Hurin does escape Morgoth's dominion in death.

Lalaith wrote:

As I remember, there *was* hope and life after Ragnarok: Baldur and the sons of Odin and Thor were the new gods, and a new race of men sprang up from a man and a woman who had hidden themselves from the destruction.


Of course. It seems I need to brush up on my Norse mythology. But I thought Baldur was killed in the Ragnarok . . .

Morwen wrote:

A little indecision would have been a good thing in Turin's case. Decisive action, when they are inevitably wrong actions, is no virtue.

True. But my point was that Turin does struggle to escape the curse. His failure is not, in general, moral failure; rather it is very poor decision-making.

Turin's problem is he never stopped to *think*, for example to wonder how Glaurung could know about Morwen and Nienor's plight in the first place - much less to doubt the dragon's motives for telling him this.

But his failure to think was, in this case, a result of Glaurung's spell.

Turin's efforts to avoid his curse were limited to changing his name, not his attitude or his behavior.


That's a valid, if cynical, way of looking at it. But names have great significance in the Silmarillion. Turin believed that he could hide from fate by keeping his identity secret. As it turns out, he was wrong. But again, his failure came not from want of trying, but simply from choosing incorrectly how to go about escaping his fate. There was also a sense with each of his name changes (and particularly "Turambar") that he was giving up his past and trying to start a new life - but his past kept catching up with him. So I think there's more to it than a simple name change.

You are right though - what he should have changed was his behavior, not his name. Note, though, that he does in fact change his behavior in Brethil; for a time he does not go to war. Yet this does not defeat his curse either.

I very much doubt she used any kind of power, and even if she did it would have been as useless on Hurin as it was on his son *unless* he were still open to the truth. Melian didn't 'heal' Hurin, she helped him heal himself.


I always got the sense that it was some power of Melian that cleared Hurin's mind. But it's rather a moot point, I think, since this is not an authentic version of the story.

[ May 14, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Lalaith]

What was it someone said to him? "your fate lies in yourself, not in your name."
In fact, Turin's attempts to escape fate by constant name changes actually helped to ruin him. If he had kept his true name his mother and sister might have been aware of his whereabouts and the brother/sister marriage not come about.
Btw, slightly off topic but what about Turin's feelings towards Finduilas? I always interpreted them as friendship rather than love. She loved him, but I don't think he loved any woman until Nienor.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Actually it's true Turin shows some improvement in Brethil, obviously chastened by the disaster he'd brought on Nargothrond, (I mean he's not a bad kid at heart - just hot tempered with poor impulse control, not to mention a bit self-obsessed). Unfortunately he ruins it all by reverting to type when confronted with the fact he's married his own sister and she's killed herself in despair.

However I must hold Nienor somewhat responsible for the deaths of Brandir and Turin as well. Granted it's fairly horrifying to discover you've accidently married your brother and are carrying his child but thowing oneself off a cliff has never struck me as a creative way of dealing with the crisis.

If Nienor had managed to keep her head, *she* could have been the one to break the news to Turin and maybe kept him from killing people, (which he tends to do when upset). Like her brother Nienor doesn't *think* but acts on the impulse and passion of the moment.

As for Glaurung putting a compulsion on Turin. I can't help feeling that if Mr. Bilbo Baggins could manage to keep his head and not put credence in a dragon's words so could Turin Turambar.

[The Saucepan Man]

What a fascinating discussion of my favourite tale and, for me, the most compelling of JRRT's characters. smilies/smile.gif

However I must hold Nienor somewhat responsible for the deaths of Brandir and Turin as well.

Of course, if she hadn't disobeyed here mother's (sensible) request and stayed in Menegroth instead, she would never have encountered Glaurung, been bewitched by him or met her brother in her amnesiac state.

Like her brother Nienor doesn't *think* but acts on the impulse and passion of the moment.

Quite.

I can't help feeling that if Mr. Bilbo Baggins could manage to keep his head and not put credence in a dragon's words so could Turin Turambar.

As far as I am concerned, the only department in which Smaug outmatched Glaurung was the wing department. Had Smaug had anything like Glaurung's ability to transfix and deceive, let alone his sheer malevolence, I really don't think Bilbo would have made it out of that chamber in one piece.

[ May 14, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Maybe so, but then Turin *is* the son of a Man who successfully resisted the Dark Lord himself. Turin is described as being conflicted on his journey north, which to my mind indicates he *chose* which course to pursue, (and part of his mind was telling him not to).

Of course to be fair its far from certain that Turin could have saved Finduilas even had he gone after her at once. The Orcs may well have killed her before he could reach her, just as they did in Brethil.

I've always thought Finduilas' final words were very touching; "Tell the Mormegil Finduilas is here." that wasn't meant as a reproach. She knew he'd come after her and I don't think she blamed him that he would now be too late, she just wanted him to know his search had ended.

[Aiwendil]

As for Glaurung putting a compulsion on Turin. I can't help feeling that if Mr. Bilbo Baggins could manage to keep his head and not put credence in a dragon's words so could Turin Turambar.

It's clear that something different is going on with Glaurung than with Smaug and Bilbo. Smaug merely speaks to Bilbo; it's a simple conversation/battle of wits. Clearly something else is at work in Glaurung's interaction with Turin. It is not until Turin lifts his visor and looks into Glaurung's eye that Glaurung has power over him. And the wording seems clear - Turin is not just daunted: "straightway he fell under the dreadful spell of the dragon".

Turin is described as being conflicted on his journey north, which to my mind indicates he *chose* which course to pursue, (and part of his mind was telling him not to).

I think that the actual choice was his own, but that the spell of Glaurung clouded his mind and thus caused him to choose poorly.

[davem]

I was struck the other day by something which may or may not have relevance. Tolkien's dislike of Lewis's Screwtape Letters. His reason was Lewis's 'trivialising of evil', treating it as a joke, something to play with. Isn't this what Hurin does with Morgoth? Defying Him in such a mocking, dismissive way. Hurin failed to take Morgoth seriously. There's a difference between refusing to bow down to evil, & being dismissive of it. Again, we come back to pride. Hurin seemed to believe that Morgoth couldn't do anything to break him or his family - if he even considered his family at that point. Hurin wasn't just putting himself at risk, he was putting his wife & children at the same or worse risk.
There does seem in the whole family this same trait, lack of thought for others. Turin returns to Dor Lomin without a thought of what the effect of his behaviour will be on his people. Turin & Hurin both place so much emphasis in their role as 'Lord', but seem not to consider the effect of their behaviour on their people. They all seem totally self obsessed, until they are forced to acknowledge the existence of others. When Nienor kills herself, does she for a moment consider the effect on Turin & others?

[Findegil]

I think we forget that we know more about the ongoing tale than the characters can have know in their time.
When Húrin has his words with Morgoth he believes that his wife and children had long since gone to Doriath as they both had spoken at the eve of the Nirneath. So he thinks they are safe. And what ever he says it is only his one risk in the first place.
When Niniel jumped into the Teglin she believes Túrin is lying dead, killed by the dragon. Nonetheless your point is worth considering. If she had stand that horror things would have gone otherwise, especially for Brandir whom she knew to love her, whatsoever.

Posted by Lalaith
Btw, slightly off topic but what about Turin's feelings towards Finduilas? I always interpreted them as friendship rather than love. She loved him, but I don't think he loved any woman until Nienor.

I don't think it was only friendship. He loved Finduilas but denied the feeling out of allegiance to Gwindor. The motivation was just but the result was bad for all three. But that was not his fault - or not alone his fault. He should not only have dismiss his feelings he should have dismiss her companionship. And in doing so he deepened her love for him and enraged Gwindor. In Finduilas we can see a failure in real love for Gwindor and her fault it was also to search further the companionship of Túrin after she perceived that Túrin didn't return her love. And Gwindor? He did do to less. We don't see him working for a reestablishment of Finduilas love to him. And when it was to late he spoke only to Finduilas and left Túrin in doubt. He did know more about Túrins motives than Finduials. Had he spoken to Túrin in the same way he spoke to her, Túrin might have changed his mind about the relation to Finduials. But he spoke only overlate at the battlefield and than mixed with bitter words.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"I think that the actual choice was his own, but that the spell of Glaurung clouded his mind and thus caused him to choose poorly."

Turin has a long history of poor choices even when *not* beclouded by a dragon. It all comes back to what I said before, he lets himself be blown around by gusts of passion instead of trying to think things out and make a *rational* decision. And Morgoth uses this weakness against him.

[Numenorean]

Turin has a long history of poor choices even when *not* beclouded by a dragon.

This is quite a sweeping statement Morwen, the whole Narn is written in such a deep shade of grey that even some of Turins 'poorest choices' have or produce elements of goodness and hope along the way.
For example, after falling in with the outlaws (as opposed to the so-called better choice of staying in Doriath)he transforms them from a bunch of fell petty thieves & rapists into a dynamic and effective military platoon, opposed to Morgoth and all he commands. This is good fruit from a bad vine.

It could be argued that the power of the Doom that Morgoth laid on him is far beyond our comprehension, and the root cause of all of his 'poor choices', in which case how can we judge him objectively? Who can really say where the Doom began and Turins own will ended?
At his core he is, I feel, essentially a good man who is waylaid and damned by the machinations of a dark 'God'. How can anyone honestly be expected to remain calm and objective and rational with a fate as interwoven with pure evil as Turins was?

[ May 15, 2003: Message edited by: Numenorean ]

[Lalaith]

When we criticise Hurin and family for thoughtlessness, let's not forget that these are men (and women) who display extreme physical courage of a kind none of us here (I suspect) have ever been called upon to do or could hope to muster. It is difficult to get into that kind of heroic mindset, but I think that thinking of others, and the cautious mulling over of consequences, does not sit easily with having constantly to fight battles to the death against enormous odds. Someone like Brandir could be thoughtful and considerate of others, but wouldn't men of action like Hurin and Turin be, by definition, of a more reckless stamp?

Also it is interesting to contrast the fate of the other strand of the family - Huor and Tuor. Huor was killed in battle and Rian died of grief, but neither suffered spiritual destruction. And Tuor, of course, had a very happy fate.

[Kuruharan]

Turin has a long history of poor choices even when *not* beclouded by a dragon.

-and-

This is quite a sweeping statement Morwen, the whole Narn is written in such a deep shade of grey that even some of Turins 'poorest choices' have or produce elements of goodness and hope along the way.


Numenorean:While I do not want to discount (or seem like I am discounting) your assessments of good being brought out of evil or of the extent of the influence of Morgoth, I am still inclined to agree with Morwen. Turin did have a history of bad choices. He had a rather unstable personality. Remember Melian warning him early in his life to "fear both the heat and cold of his heart." I think that this shows a certain predisposition on Turin's part to rash deeds and poor decision making, apart from any influence by Morgoth's curse.

Someone like Brandir could be thoughtful and considerate of others, but wouldn't men of action like Hurin and Turin be, by definition, of a more reckless stamp?

Not necessarily. "Men of Action" come in many varieties. Some are more cautious and thoughtful than others. Aragorn for instance strikes me as being a man of action but he does not strike me as being a rash man. He is capable of taking risks and making gambles, but he does not do so without taking due thought.

And let us not forget that Hurin and Turin had rather different personalities. Hurin always struck me as being a bit more, well, Steadfast, than Turin. Turin seemed to be a bit more flighty.

As I said above, I think that Morgoth would have cursed Hurin's family regardless even if Hurin had not taunted him. I personally don't consider Hurin's words to be a rash action. He was in a bad situation and it was going to be bad no matter what he did.

Turin, on the other hand, had a bit of a habit of taking awkward situations and making them worse. Note the Saeros affair as an example of this. The example of the destruction of Nargothrond might also apply.

I also wonder what influence Morwen's personality had on events. I have to confess that I have never been fond of Morwen (the character in the book that is, not our good fellow conversationalist in this discussion). She also had a habit of being just a trifle mule-headed at times. Examples: her refusal to go south with Turin, and her mad expedition to Nargothrond. The little trip to Nargothrond in particular made things infinitely worse.

(I have always jokingly said that the thing that prepared Hurin to resist Morgoth so well was being married to Morwen. It might have seemed like a vacation. ;) )

In all seriousness does anybody else have any thoughts on how Morwen influenced the Hurin/Turin situation for good or ill?

[davem]

Morwen has always struck me as too cold & 'stand offish'. It does make me wonder how much her husband & so are trying to 'live up' to her standards. Maybe we should have looked more deeply into Morwen's influence.

Certainly, we never really get to know her. She's quite a 'shadowy' figure. I wonder how possible it would be for anyone, even her closest family, to get close to her. She's one of Tolkien's most difficult characters as far as I'm concerned. I'll have to think more on this though.

[Lalaith]

Funnily enough, Morwen feels very real to me. I suppose that she is very like one of the saga heroines so she presses some cultural recognition buttons. And I really must defend her against comparisons to Morgoth!
She and Hurin clearly had a very good, close marriage. "Hurin, knowing her courage and her guarded tongue, often spoke with Morwen of the designs of the Elven kings, and of what might befall..."
Yes, she was a stern, cold woman, but I have a lot of sympathy for her - like I said earlier, hard times make hard people. She had grown up with great loss and hardship, her people, the house of Beor, had been near-destroyed. And while Rian gave up and died, Morwen stayed on to fight and protect her children as best she could. And the main reason she didn't go straight off to Doriath was that she was heavily pregnant with Nienor.
The part that always sticks in my mind as heartbreaking was when she is sending Turin off to Doriath- she says nothing, but 'clutched the doorpost so that her fingers were torn.' It was the last time she saw her child.

[Numenorean]

Kuruharan:
Remember Melian warning him early in his life to "fear both the heat and cold of his heart." I think that this shows a certain predisposition on Turin's part to rash deeds
Fair points Kuru, but I got the feeling that maybe the only thing Turin cannot feel properly, is self-fear, so is this therefore his failing, or his fate?
As to Morwen Eledhwen, considering the fate of Rian her cousin, it leaves the impression that she had to be as hard as she was to survive such times. Bearing in mind the inherent stubborness and valour of her Beorean kin, it does not suprise me that she chose to remain in Dor-Lomin(in vain hope for Hurin?) for as long as she did. It does suprise me that despite the devastating bleakness of her post-Arnoediad existence, she never once openly despairs, that we know of.
She's quite a 'shadowy' figure. I wonder how possible it would be for anyone, even her closest family, to get close to her
Davem I agree that she does seem 'shadowy'and distant (and by all accounts incredibly beautiful). Yet even after the fall of Hador, Morwen inspires strong loyalty from Aerin and the remenants of Hurins people, though how much of this is due to the barbarism of Broddas rule as opposed to Morwens own attributes, I cannot say.
BTW, cheers for an amazing thread Lalaith The Narn I Hin Hurin has got to be one of the greatest short stories ever written, criminally neglected by the literary establishment.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Now let's not fall back on that old psychological stand by of blaming the mother! smilies/smile.gif

Granted Morwen is not the demonstrative type but clearly both her husband and her son know very well how much she loves them. Turin is said to have preferred his mother to his father apparently because of her disciplined character and straight speech.

Hurin's humor confused and alarmed him, Turin seems to have lacked both a sense of humor and a sense of proportion. Combined with his hot temper that made a recipe for disaster.

IMO the early loss of Morwen's firm hand and controlled example contributed to her son's later instability, of course Nienor had the benefit of both and still turned out as feckless as her brother...

[ May 16, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Aiwendil]

davem wrote:

Isn't this what Hurin does with Morgoth? Defying Him in such a mocking, dismissive way. Hurin failed to take Morgoth seriously. There's a difference between refusing to bow down to evil, & being dismissive of it. Again, we come back to pride. Hurin seemed to believe that Morgoth couldn't do anything to break him or his family - if he even considered his family at that point. Hurin wasn't just putting himself at risk, he was putting his wife & children at the same or worse risk.


I still have a hard time believing that Morgoth cursed Hurin's family only as a result of Hurin's words to him. I think that even if Hurin had remained silent, Morgoth still would have uttered the curse; for what he was chiefly interested in was finding Gondolin - that is, breaking and torturing Hurin. And I certainly don't think that Hurin is somehow to be blamed for the curse, especially in any moral sense.

There does seem in the whole family this same trait, lack of thought for others. Turin returns to Dor Lomin without a thought of what the effect of his behaviour will be on his people. Turin & Hurin both place so much emphasis in their role as 'Lord', but seem not to consider the effect of their behaviour on their people.

I must disagree here too. Turin's actions very frequently are the result of thought for others - it's just that those actions usually go amiss. When he returns to Dor-lomin, he is doing because of what he perceives (as a result of Glaurung's spell) as a very real and imminent threat to his mother and sister. And he also has a real desire to free Dor-lomin from the Easterlings and liberate his people. As it happens, his return does cause some suffering to his people, but this was more a result of impulsive decision making and poor strategy than of a lack of caring for his people.

Findegil wrote:

I don't think it was only friendship. He loved Finduilas but denied the feeling out of allegiance to Gwindor. The motivation was just but the result was bad for all three.

I agree. Also, he did not wish to involve Finduilas with his curse. Obviously, he had done that anyway, without knowing it.

Morwen wrote:

Turin has a long history of poor choices even when *not* beclouded by a dragon.

That's true. But his decision to go to Dor-lomin was a particularly poor choice that, I think, he would not have made had it not been for Glaurung's spell.

It all comes back to what I said before, he lets himself be blown around by gusts of passion instead of trying to think things out and make a *rational* decision. And Morgoth uses this weakness against him.


That's true.

Numenorean wrote:

At his core he is, I feel, essentially a good man who is waylaid and damned by the machinations of a dark 'God'.

I very much agree. Perhaps other people had different reactions, but I always felt throughout the Narn that Turin was very much a hero or protagonist and quite a sympathetic character.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

If I've given the impression I don't think Turin was a good, or at least well meaning person, I apologize. Of course he was. But the Curse of Morgoth worked by exacerbating his failings, (hot temper, lack of proportion, impulsiveness, etc.) IMO Turin could have mastered the Curse by working on his self control and cultivating a habit of rational decision making, which basically is what Melian counselled him to do. Unfortunately he never seems to have made any serious effort to follow her advice and so failed to master his doom.

For all Turin's basic kindness he shows a notable insensitivity to others and a history of failure in human, and other, relations. He forgets completely the Elf maiden who raised him. Not only fails to resolve or even control the tensions between his Human outlaws, the Dwarf Mim, and his friend Beleg but seems almost unaware they exist. Misreads both Gwindor and Finduilas in Nargothrond. Makes unecessary trouble for everybody in Dor-Lomin. And manages to stir up all kinds of rivalries and tensions in Brethil, (dispite a real effort to amend his behavior).

He is kind yes, I mean he even shows sympathy to Mim! but he doesn't *think*. It never occurs to him to *talk* to his various followers and work on reconciling them to one another. The contrast between Turin and his father's experience with outlaws is interesting. Hurin, dispite being half crazed, has no trouble at all with his chance found companions.

Now maybe Hurin's outlaws were just a better class of Men, or maybe he was lucky in having an able lieutenant like Asgon, but it seems equally likely that he just knew how to handle Men on an almost instinctive level, thanks to his years as Lord of Dor-Lomin, and those skills kicked in automatically out of sheer habit as soon as he picked up some companions.

[Lalaith]

The point is of course that they - Hurin, Turin, Morwen and Nienor - were *all* essentially good people, who would have been wise and well-loved rulers of their folk had Morgoth not cursed them. That is why the story is so tragic.

[Guinevere]

Wow, this is really a fascinating thread!
I am myself not able to put into words so well what I feel and think, nor of analyzing the characters as you do, but I just want to let you all know how much I appreciate this discussion and your brilliant posts! Kudos!!

As for my opinion, I think I agree completely with what Aiwendil wrote in her posts .
But after all these analysations and explanations, the question that is still bothering me (ever since I read the Sil.) is WHY did Tolkien write such a discouraging, hopeless story? What is the meaning of it? Why this screaming injustice towards Hurin, why the complete absence of mercy from the Valar (or Eru) (Who in other stories could and did interfere) ?

Btw, I wonder if there is any parallel between Job and Hurin?
Lalaith, that's what came immediately to my mind too, when reading the Narn! Only, Hurin's story is worse, because there is no "happy end", no reward for his steadfast belief in the Valar and God. Morgoth was allowed to "prove" that he was right and Hurin died in complete dispair. The implication is that if there is a God, he doestn't care at all for the world and his children.

I have read Tolkiens letters , and there he explains so much about LotR and the characters and his intentions and thoughts about them.
I only wish, he would have written something about the story of Hurin and Turin! Its mood is so very different from LotR.

[davem]

Its not so much a matter of 'blaming the mother', as trying to understand the effect of his relationship with Morwen. He is carrying this, & his unresolved relationships to his sisters along with him through everything. I think it affects his actions to an incredible degree - he kills Saeros purely for that reason. I wonder whether his pain is not down in a major part to the fact that he wasn't able to get as close to her as he needed to be.

As far as Morgoth's curse goes, I can't help feeling that Morgoth was provoked by Hurin's response. If he wanted to find out more about Gondolin I'm sure he could, as the most powerful being in Arda, have found an easy way to get the information. Hurin, for all his justified hatred of Morgoth, treated him as an object of contempt. Morgoth would not simply accept that - he would want to 'make an example' of him.

I do feel though that we have to keep in mind that Hurin & his family are the 'good guys'. As long as we do, its valid to analyse their motivations. Maybe those of us on the 'they brought it all on themselves' side have gone a bit far, but they did bring a LOT of it on themselves smilies/smile.gif

[Morwen Tindomerel]

If Morgoth could have forced the information he wanted out of Hurin he'd have done so, *and* cursed his family for good measure.

He cannot wave his wand and turn Hurin, or anybody else, into an obedient zombie. Force and Fear are the *only* weapons Morgoth has against the free will of the Children, weapons that failed notably against Hurin.

And Morgoth *is* contemptible, all the power in the world doesn't change the fact he is a greedy, cowardly traitor to his Father and Siblings who can be tricked and humiliated by a Mortal Man and his Elven Princess, and successfully defied by another 'mere' Mortal. Nor is he any longer the most powerful being in Arda, his evil has gravely diminished him as shown by his inability to change shape.

[davem]

Sorry, but I think Morgoth could have gotten the information out of Hurin quite easily, but I think there was more going on. he wanted to humiliate him, & by extension his enemies.
I also meant the most powerful being in Endor - was rushed at the time I posted (actually still am!) I think Morgoth would qualify as that.

[Kuruharan]

Sorry, but I think Morgoth could have gotten the information out of Hurin quite easily

Then I am afraid that you are missing the point of the entire episode. Hurin's defiance centers around his refusal to tell Morgoth about the location of Gondolin. This is what makes Hurin's actions at the end so tragic because it renders futile the decades of defiance of Morgoth.

There must also be understanding of what the defiance of Morgoth was. It was more than just Hurin's taunts over the course of ten minutes. It was his refusal to speak to Morgoth of the location of Gondolin for thirty years. His silence was part of his defiance.

I am afraid that you are quite wrong about the ease of getting information out of Hurin. Hurin earned his nickname of "Steadfast." Aside from killing there was little else that Morgoth could do to him, and Hurin still would not break.

If he wanted to find out more about Gondolin I'm sure he could, as the most powerful being in Arda, have found an easy way to get the information.

Morwen already capably answered this, but there is something that I will give a little more detail to.

It is evident from some places in the stories that Morgoth still had some of his ESP (for lack of a better word). Note his speech to Mablung at Nargothrond, and the various places in the texts where it says that Morgoth knew more about the deeds and plans of his enemies than was commonly thought.

However, his ability to do this seems to rely on (to some extent) other knowledge of the situation. In other words I think that he had to have somebody there on the ground for him to have knowledge of the situation. I have always believed that there was a little bit of Morgoth in all his servants, and that he kept in touch with these little bits of himself for command/intelligence purposes.

So, since none of his servants could get near Gondolin there was no way that he could find out much about it himself.

he wanted to humiliate him, & by extension his enemies

That is certainly true.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Not completely futile. Though Hurin did give away the general location of Gondolin that information would have done Morgoth little good save for the treachery of Maeglin.

Looking at it another way we might say that Hurin's long defiance bought Gondorlin thirty more years of existence, allowing his nephew Tuor to meet Turgon's daughter Idril and beget Earendil - without whom there would have been no host out of Valinor and no War of Wrath....funny how things hang together in Middle Earth isn't it?

[The Saucepan Man]

On Hurin:

I found Hurin's fate, and his treatment at the hands of Morgoth, to be one of the most shocking and distressing episodes that I have read in the works of JRRT. Davem put it graphically, when he said:

He had been slowly destroyed at the hands of Morgoth for, what, over thirty years. His mind was virtually destroyed. He was seeing the world & events through Morgoth's eyes, & Morgoth's 'vision' was essentially so corrupted that he couldn't see objectively, even if he'd chosen to.

Not only that, but he was made to watch the systematic destruction of his entire family. I cannot imagine a worse fate. Made all the worse, for me, by the fact that his capture was brought about by his loyalty and sense of duty to his lord, Turgon. Death in so doing, as was Huor's fate, I can accept. But to have to undergo what Hurin went through, well it's just utterly horrific.

I personally find it hard to forgive Turgon for not letting Hurin into Gondolin.
"Remember the Fen of Serech.."


Absolutely. I find the general treatment of Men by Elves in the First Age to be petty reprehensible. They were certainly considered as "second class citizens", and often seen as no better than cannon fodder. The Fen of Serech is a classic example of that. Turgon seems to have no compunction about leaving Hurin and Huor, and their men, to almost certain death in order to save himself and his people. And the Elves are the ones whose fate on death was known ...

So, in response to Lalaith's original point:

To have Hurin die in mistaken pride and despair is then, according to Tolkien's beliefs, condemning him to damnation in the afterlife ... Considering Hurin's extraordinary loyalty, courage and steadfastness, this seems *very* hard and grim a conclusion.

No, I cannot imagine that JRRT ever considered such a fate for him. On his death, his fea would no doubt have gone the (unknown) way of all Men, but he was rightly honoured as one of the greatest among them.

Hurin certainly did not deserve to suffer the way that he did, and it is thoroughly understandable to me that he should end in such despair. But, as Morwen Tindomerel quite rightly points out, he did, ultimately at least, achieve much by his (unimaginable) suffering:

Looking at it another way we might say that Hurin's long defiance bought Gondorlin thirty more years of existence, allowing his nephew Tuor to meet Turgon's daughter Idril and beget Earendil - without whom there would have been no host out of Valinor and no War of Wrath....

No, I cannot imagine that, however he ended his days, Hurin could possibly be damned after all he went through and considering the ultimate outcome of his actions.

On Turin:

Now, there seems to be a general view on this thread that Turin's character, albeit exascerbated by the curse of Morgoth, was the cause of his undoing. It is said that he was rash, hot-headed, unable to think through the consequences of his actions and insensitive to the needs and safety of others. Morwen, for example says that:

... he lets himself be blown around by gusts of passion instead of trying to think things out and make a *rational* decision.

Similarly, Aiwendil says:

Indeed, he knows of the curse and is constantly struggling to escape it. It's just that he makes the wrong decisions toward that goal.

Now, while I agree that Turin does make some very poor choices, I also think that Aiwendil makes a very good point when she says:

... though the wrong choices are made, those wrong choices seem reasonable, or at least understandable.

I think that it is possible to see many of the Turin's decisions as entirely reasonable in light of the information before him. It is only with the benefit of hindsight, and being able to see the consequences of his actions, that we can see his choices as being the wrong ones. A good example is his strategy, while in Nargothrond, of taking the fight to Morgoth, rather than waiting for Morgoth's forces to smoke them out.

I think that Aiwendil, again, put it very well when she said:

The prime example of this ambiguity is in the tension between fate and free will that operates in the Narn. Nearly all of Turin's misfortunes seem, on the surface, to be solely the result of his own actions and choices … But we know that there is something else at work. We know that the tragedies in Turin's life are the result, in some way, of Morgoth's curse.

Turin may very well have made poor choices (and quite obviously did in some cases), but did he ever have any hope of making the right ones? Even had he made the correct choices, would the curse nevertheless have caught up with him?

This is, I think, is the great irony of the Tale of Turin Turambar and the Narn I Hin Hurin. Men are supposed to be masters of their own fate and yet Morgoth is able, by means of his curse on Hurin's family, to condemn his wife and children to a destiny governed by fate. Turin names himself the Master of his Fate but, in fact, he never has any hope of escaping it.

The physical manifestation of Morgoth's curse is apparent in Glaurung. Both Turin and Nienor are bewitched by the Dragon in such a way that their fate is placed in Morgoth's hands. But, even when Turin makes decisions free from Glaurung's influence, Morgoth's curse is, as Aiwendil said, at work, ensuring that each choice he makes is the wrong one and brings only death and hardship to those around him.

Yes, Turin did have some character failings. But he also had some great qualities. Courage, tactical nous, kindness and compassion (the latter most apparent from his treatment of Mim). He earns the deep friendhip of Beleg (one Elf who I would not categorise as being too "superior" in his treatment of Men) and the respect of others such as Thingol and Mablung. He also inspires loyalty in a band of cut-throat bandits and, through his influence, they not only become an effective and useful military unit but also, it seems, much nicer people to know.

No, I do not believe that the curse of Morgoth worked by playing on his character failings, for he was no worse in this regard (and, to my mind, probably a lot better) than many others. As I see it, the curse worked by ensuring that, whatever course of action he chose, it would be the wrong one. And this, of course, makes him appear to be someone who always makes the wrong choices.

For me, this is what makes his story so tragic. He struggles so hard to evade his fate and yet, as the reader becomes increasingly aware as his story progresses, it is ultimately all to no avail.

[ May 18, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I'm sorry I cannot agree. Tolkien himself says repeatedly that Men *are* the masters of their fates, just as plainly as he says Elves go to Mandos. We must therefore accept that as truth.

But just because Men have the potential to master their fate doesn't mean they can do so automatically or without effort, an effort Turin never made.

Melian by warning Turin to be wary of his passions was clearly indicating that these could be used against him. And that by mastering them he would also master the curse.

It *cannot* be coincidence that every single mistake leading to disaster in the Narn is made in a state of unreasoning emotion, by Morwen, Turin, Nienor and Hurin. Now unless you're suggesting Morgoth was controlling their minds, (which he clearly cannot or Hurin couldn't have withstood him all those years) the House of Hurin *must* take some measure of responsibility for the damage they do to themselves and others.

It is true all of them usually had good reason to be distraught and irrational, Hurin especially, but by letting uncontrolled emotion govern them they left themselves open to Morgoth's manipulation. It is clearly not a case of all decisions being wrong but of wrong decisions being made repeatedly and Morgoth taking full and malicious advantage of the fact.

To believe anything else robs the House of Hurin of their Free Will, which Tolkien also frequently and emphatically affirms as central to the nature of the Children of Eru.

[ May 18, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[The Saucepan Man]

I'm sorry I cannot agree.

Hehe, I knew this would stir things up. smilies/evil.gif smilies/wink.gif

Tolkien himself says repeatedly that Men *are* the masters of their fates, just as plainly as he says Elves go to Mandos. We must therefore accept that as truth.

But that, for me, is precisely the tragedy of the Narn I Hin Hurin. Men are supposed to be masters of their own fate, but the children (and wife) of Hurin are prevented, as a result of Morgoth's curse, from enjoying that luxury.

But just because Men have the potential to master their fate doesn't mean they can do so automatically or without effort, an effort Turin never made.

But surely Turin made great efforts to evade his fate. The fact that he failed to so so does not invalidate those efforts. To me, it is more coincidental that every decision made by Turin, exercising free will, simply played into Morgoth's hands.

Now unless you're suggesting Morgoth was controlling their minds ... the House of Hurin *must* take some measure of responsibility for the damage they do to themselves and others.

It is clearly not a case of all decisions being wrong but of wrong decisions being made repeatedly and Morgoth taking full and malicious advantage of the fact.

This is where we get to the nub of it. Whether you believe that Morgoth took advantage of Turin's character failings, or whether you believe (as I do) that he was doomed whatever course of action he chose, the curse of Morgoth is still at work. Even if it is the uncontrolled passion with which he (sometimes) acts that is his undoing, the curse of Morgoth is still robbing him of his free will by ensuring that his natural instincts work to his detriment.

I wouldn't put it as Morgoth controlling his mind, any more than Mandos was controlling the minds of the Noldor as their fate played out. The curse was made, just as Mandos' prophecy was pronounced, and the paths of the protagonists were set. Yes, Turin, Morwen and Nienor had free will to an extent but, however they exercised their free will, their fate would catch up with them. In other words, their free will was delimited by the curse set upon them. Whether through the physical intervention of Morgoth's forces (in particular, the wonderfully malevolent Glaurung) or simply circumstances conspiring against them, the outcome was, unfortunately, unavoidable.

Melian by warning Turin to be wary of his passions was clearly indicating that these could be used against him. And that by mastering them he would also master the curse.

But there is clearly more at work here than simply uncontrolled passion on the part of Morwen, Turin and Nienor. Yes, a number of their actions are governed by uncontrolled emotions. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. But, in the case of Hurin's family, those actions inevitably end in disaster. Morwen's decision to leave Doriath and search out her son, and Nienor's decision to folow her are good examples. In different circumstances, those choices might have resulted in a happy family reunion. But, circumstances conspire against them.

And, even had Turin followed Melian's advice and restricted his actions to the purely logical and rational, would he have been any better off? Turin frequently acts on a sensible and rational basis, particularly in his dealings with the outlaws and with Mim. And I cannot really fault the logic behind his strategy of open warfare, while at Nargothrond. And yet, ultimately, his decisions go awry all the same.

To believe anything else robs the House of Hurin of their Free Will, which Tolkien also frequently and emphatically affirms as central to the nature of the Children of Eru.

Yes, this is an issue with which I struggled while reading this fascinating thread. Being fully aware of the central theme of Men being masters of their fate, I tried in vain to see some way in which the tale of the children of Hurin might be seen as consistent with this. But whichever way I look at it, I see the curse of Morgoth as inevitably, and ultimately, robbing Hurin's family of the free will which should rightly have been theirs.

Perhaps the Narn I Hin Hurin is the excpetion that proves the rule. smilies/wink.gif

[Kuruharan]

*TANGENT TIME*

I probably should have explained my views on this earlier in the thread, but let me take this opportunity to do so.

And I cannot really fault the logic behind his strategy of open warfare, while at Nargothrond.

Turin's strategy of open warfare was wrong-headed, I'm afraid. Fundamentally, it was a mis-assessment of where the advantages of the conflict lay in the case of Nargothrond.

The advantage of Nargothrond lay in the secrecy of its base, combined with the large amount of territory that it controlled (larger than any of the other Noldorian kingdoms, I believe).

In a straight up mano y mano contest, Nargothrond could not hope to defeat Angband. Thus, this is the type of war that Angband would desire to fight.

However, with a secure center and a large domain, the Elves could wage an extremely protracted, messy, violent, costly, and brutal guerrilla war against Angband. This type of warfare was not in Morgoth's interest.

Turin violated a fundamental principle of warfare in that he fought in the way that his enemy desired him to fight, and he did so knowingly. I personally believe that he did this because he let his "chivalry" and his pride get in the way of military principle and practicality.

His reasoning sounds good, and indeed some of them are true, but they are misapplied and used as rationalizations for Turin to do as he wants.

His small open victories were in the end more costly than the smaller victories of ambush could have been because he gave up his primary advantage.

He disliked the policy of ambush for the stated reason that it allowed the orcs to roam freely over the lands. This is an exaggeration. Troops that go along in constant fear of ambush do not go where they would freely. Remember the orcs that Turin chased on the Guarded Plain in his days with the outlaws. The orcs feared the Elves and did not like going there. The orcs were allowed into the domain of Nargothrond, as the saying might go, "All the better to kill you my dear!" This was something that Turin willfully overlooked.

His business about the "time of glory" is an emotional justification of the gratification of his own impulses at the expense of the actual, practical realities of the situation. It boils down to that he wanted to fight in the way that Morgoth wanted him to fight. This in itself may have been part of the curse.

His assessment of the situation that all resistance against Morgoth was doomed is correct. However, for those desiring to actually resist Morgoth, Nargothrond was well situated to put up a good, long, hard, bloody fight.

What Turin did was not fight against Morgoth, he played right into Morgoth's hands.

*END TANGENT TIME*

[ May 18, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Guinevere]

Yes, this is an issue with which I struggled while reading this fascinating thread. Being fully aware of the central theme of Men being masters of their fate, I tried in vain to see some way in which the tale of the children of Hurin might be seen as consistent with this. But whichever way I look at it, I see the curse of Morgoth as inevitably, and ultimately, robbing Hurin's family of the free will which should rightly have been theirs.

Perhaps the Narn I Hin Hurin is the excpetion that proves the rule.



Ah, at last someone who seems to have similar questions as I do!(Otherwise what I was asking was just ignored.) Almost all of those things that Tolkien wrote (in "letters") are relating to the LotR.
I too, find Húrin's fate oddly at variance with the rest of his philosphy. Of course, I haven't read the HoME. Perhaps there can be found a comment on the Narn somwhere in there? ?
But I must admit that in real life it seems somtimes like that. Totally hopeless and Evil is allowed to have it's way and no sign of God at all. Perhaps Tolkien wrote it in just such a mood? After all he wrote the first version in WW I. But the "Narn i hin Hurin" (as in UT) he wrote much later, after The LotR. What were his thoughts about it then?
No, I cannot imagine that JRRT ever considered such a fate for him. On his death, his fea would no doubt have gone the (unknown) way of all Men, but he was rightly honoured as one of the greatest among them.


That is my opinion as well! At least "beyond the circles of this world" there must be justice.

[Lalaith]

On the one hand, you have Tolkien's own belief in free will. This contrasted strongly with the belief systems you find in most heroic/early literature, which are very fatalistic.
I find Narn more on the side of fatalism than free will. I think this is what makes it such particularly grim reading for modern men and women of the western world, where pre-destination is mostly a forgotten doctrine. (With the exception of those who take astrology as their religion... smilies/rolleyes.gif )
You get the fatalism feeling particularly with Turin, there is this awful feeling throughout the tale of watching a man trying to get out of a marshy bog, everything he does turns out bad. I personally never got the feeling that he was bringing anything on himself, except in as far as his troubles made him increasingly hurt and hardened, so he became more difficult to help.
But Guinevere, you're right, this doesn't explain *why* Tolkien should have made Narn such a fatalistic story.
Btw Morwen - I'm not entirely disagreeing with you either. As Turin becomes more desperate and unhappy he lashes out at those around him...for example the exchange with his aunt Aerin is very telling.

[ May 19, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

[davem]

The issue of free will is central - Flieger makes a big issue of the fact that men are stated by Tolkien not to have been bound by the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else (including Elves, which means, according to her, that Elves have no freedom of choice, which I find difficult to believe, but Tolkien stated it clearly).

Just to go back to Hurin's defiance of Morgoth. Are we really saying that Morgoth, with techniques of torture & brain washing, & Magic REALLY couldn't have gotten any information out of Hurin he wanted? That would make him far weaker & more stupid than I always imagined. Yes, Morgoth wanted to find & destroy Gondolin, but he was in no desperate hurry. He was convinced of his ultimate victory, convinced the Valar would never intervene. His pride would never allow him to contemplate defeat by the Elves. All the time his forces were growing. He wasn't desperate to win, as far as he was concerned, victory was a foregone conclusion.

Of course he was wrong about all that, but I really can't believe he would take all that time over Hurin, if he felt he was up against time. Its the very callous & dismissive way he treats Hurin that convinces me he was 'playing with him, like cats with poor mouses' to pararphrase. I think Hurin is maybe less important to Morgoth than Hurin would like to believe. He plays with him, destroys his family before his eyes, & then throws him out to wander, hoping he'll do some damage.

The real horror of the story for me, is that Morgoth inflicts such cruelty, for fun. Morgoth isn't desperately trying to get information out of Hurin. He's biding his time, building his forces for an inevitable (as he thinks) victory, & Hurin is just entertainment.

Hurin is a man. He couldn't defy a Valar. Morgoth might have been weakened, less than he had been, but don't forget what he HAD been. He would have had to fall a long way for a man to be able to defy him. Come on, Finrod couldn't hold out against Sauron. Are we saying Hurin could defy Morgoth successfully?

[Findegil]

originaly Posted by davem:
Just to go back to Hurin's defiance of Morgoth. Are we really saying that Morgoth, with techniques of torture & brain washing, & Magic REALLY couldn't have gotten any information out of Hurin he wanted?

There is no question at all that Húrin could do that and that Morgoth did know he could. The fea of any individual was in its will unbrakeable it could be dominated by fear especialy when incarnated in a body by the fear of bodily damage and could be deluded. But both ways were not effectiv with Húrin. All that information can be found in Ósanwe-kenta.
But of course your argument is not void. Morgoth delighted in the play with Húrin otherwise he would have killed him yust on the spot, because the chance of geting information form Húrin was very small even when it turned out that Húrin in the end did give Morgoth all the info he had about the location of Gondolin.

originaly posted by Guinevere:
Almost all of those things that Tolkien wrote (in "letters") are relating to the LotR.
That's not to be wondered about. JRR Tolkien published in his lifetime (only considering books that deal with Middle-Earth) The Hobbit; The Lord of the Rings; The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Road goes ever on (oh! I nearly had forgotten the reading of The Fall of Gondolin that he made once for a aditory).
All the rest of his lifelong writtings on the matters of Middle-Earth are posthum publications. So it is clear that nearly noboddy could ask him any questions about the Narn î chin Húrin and the other storys in the First and Second Age. And thus we can not expact him to give answeres to unasked questions his letters.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Oddly enough I have never seen fatalism in the Narn. What I see, and what I think Tolkien *intended* for the reader to see, is how good people could be manipulated, (*not* controlled) by evil.

The decisions and choices were *always* in the hands of Hurin, Morwen and their Children. They were not foredoomed to make the wrong decisions the chose to do so through lack of thought and self-mastery.

Tolkien, through Manthor, states in so many words that the 'curse' worked by encouraging the fault and flaws of the victims. But because Men are the masters of their own fates, and their own wills, and their own hands, (proven again by Hurin's defiance) the curse can be overcome - it just wasn't.

[ May 19, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[The Saucepan Man]

Turin violated a fundamental principle of warfare in that he fought in the way that his enemy desired him to fight, and he did so knowingly. I personally believe that he did this because he let his "chivalry" and his pride get in the way of military principle and practicality.

Kuruharan, I agree that Turin’s strategy was, viewed with the benefit of hindsight, the wrong one. But I think that he chose to pursue it for very understandable and logical reasons. The logic in his strategy which I cannot fault is that which Aiwendil quoted in an earlier post:

... victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only in what follow from it. But it is expedient also; for if you do nothing to halt him, all Beleriand will fall beneath his shadow before many years are passed, and then one by one he will smoke you out of your earths. And what then? A pitiable remnant will fly south and west, to cower on the shores of the Sea, caught between Morgoth and Ossë. Better then to win a time of glory, though it be shortlived; for the end will be no worse.

Remember that Morgoth’s force that entered the realm of Nargothrond was “greater far … than any scouts had told”. I am sure that Turin felt that he could halt the advance of Morgoth’s army, at least temporarily, while inflicting heavy losses on it. In that, he was mistaken, but only as a result of inaccurate information. Moreover, while Turin did recognise that, ultimately, resistance would be futile, he also recognised that the same result would come about, albeit in the longer term, if nothing was done to halt Morgoth’s advance save to harry his forces through “guerilla warfare” tactics. In those circumstances, it seems to me that his decision to face Morgoth’s forces head on was a fair and reasonable one.

The decisions and choices were *always* in the hands of Hurin, Morwen and their Children. They were not foredoomed to make the wrong decisions the chose to do so through lack of thought and self-mastery.

Surely, Morwen, if they were required to make the right decisions in order to escape the curse of Morgoth, then that in itself is a restriction on their free will. They did not have the freedom to make the wrong choices without suffering the consequences of the curse.

But I do think that there is more to the curse than that. If it only came into effect in the event that they made the wrong choices, then it becomes virtually meaningless, since anyone can bring about their own misfortune without any need for a curse by consistently choosing the wrong course of action. In those circumstances, the tale would become, for me, less of a tragedy and more a straight catalogue of errors, and I would not see Turin as a tragic hero at all, but simply someone who brought all his troubles upon himself.

[Kuruharan]

... victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only in what follow from it. But it is expedient also; for if you do nothing to halt him, all Beleriand will fall beneath his shadow before many years are passed, and then one by one he will smoke you out of your earths. And what then? A pitiable remnant will fly south and west, to cower on the shores of the Sea, caught between Morgoth and Ossë. Better then to win a time of glory, though it be shortlived; for the end will be no worse.

As I already said before, those were not real victories that Turin was winning. They were bait, no more no less. Victory is not always really victory if it is being deliberately used to lure you on to disastrous defeat.

And as I also already said, Turin's speech was exaggerated. The Elves of Nargothrond were not "doing nothing" against Morgoth. They had fairly realistically assessed their chances and followed the course that offered them the best chance of holding out longest, until Turin arrived. Their mode of fighting was not suited to Turin's proud disposition and he persuaded them to change it.

There cannot be much more to it because a logical assessment of the situation says...

Nargothrond could not win in open warfare with Angband. This, then, is how Angband would prefer to fight.

If Nargothrond wants to fight Angband it would do best to adopt a style that Angband does not expect and does not desire.

Finrod, being a smart Elf, thought this out (with a little help from Ulmo no doubt) and adopted the guerrilla strategy.

Turin, being a not-as-bright human, either didn't recognize or ignored the realities of the situation. He wanted to fight in the way that he wanted to fight, and that was that.

So, I don't think that Turin's strategy was particularly fair or reasonable. He had enough information at hand to know that his way would not last long, if only he had cared to take a look at it.

When the overwhelming force was unleashed by Morgoth, that was the result of Turin's policy. There was nothing that could save them then. Turin had chosen to play that game, and Nargothrond had to pay the price for it.

*Ahem-Cough* Anyway...

Surely, Morwen, if they were required to make the right decisions in order to escape the curse of Morgoth, then that in itself is a restriction on their free will.

Why would that be any greater restriction on free will than you have to do a certain thing in order to be doing the right thing?

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"Surely, Morwen, if they were required to make the right decisions in order to escape the curse of Morgoth, then that in itself is a restriction on their free will."

Okay I don't understand this at all. The essence of free will is freedom of choice, right? The fact that certain choices are wrong and will lead to disaster if made does nothing to negate that.

"They did not have the freedom to make the wrong choices without suffering the consequences of the curse."

Last time I looked none of us have the 'freedom' to make to make bad choices without suffering consequences - so why should the Hurin family?

But you're looking at this the wrong way around. If they made wrong and foolish choices the curse would make the consequences even worse than they would naturally have been *but* had they made the right choices the curse would have been negated - am I making any sense at all?

"But I do think that there is more to the curse than that. If it only came into effect in the event that they made the wrong choices, then it becomes virtually meaningless, since anyone can bring about their own misfortune without any need for a curse by consistently choosing the wrong course of action."

I wonder if maybe that's the point? The principle of self fulfilling prophecy might apply here.

"In those circumstances, the tale would become, for me, less of a tragedy and more a straight catalogue of errors, and I would not see Turin as a tragic hero at all, but simply someone who brought all his troubles upon himself."

Uh - I thought that was exactly what a tragic hero was; a Man who dispite his gifts brings disaster on himself and others through his own flaws of character as well as external agencies - at least that's what my English teacher said...

[ May 19, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[The Saucepan Man]

When the overwhelming force was unleashed by Morgoth, that was the result of Turin's policy. There was nothing that could save them then. Turin had chosen to play that game, and Nargothrond had to pay the price for it.

I understand the points that you are making. And I agree that Turin's strategy was the wrong one. All I am saying is that the reasoning which led him to pursue that strategy (in light of the information available to him) makes sense to me, so I see it as the product of rational thought rather than pure, uncontrolled emotion.

Why would that be any greater restriction on free will than you have to do a certain thing in order to be doing the right thing?

The essence of free will is freedom of choice, right? The fact that certain choices are wrong and will lead to disaster if made does nothing to negate that.

Precisely. If Turin's doom is brought about solely by choices based upon the exercise of free will, then the curse of Morgoth is superfluous. If, on the other hand, Morgoth's curse played some part in his downfall, then this represents a restriction on his free will, to the extent of the part played by the curse.

I thought that was exactly what a tragic hero was; a Man who dispite his gifts brings disaster on himself and others through his own flaws of character as well as external agencies (emphasis added)

So, if at least an element of Turin's actions can be governed by the curse, going against the general rule that Men have free will, then why should they not all not be so governed?

[davem]

Findegil, I accept that Morgoth couldn't break Hurin's spirit, only his mind & body. But he was clearly ONLY interested in seeing Hurin's spirit broken, which is why he dealt with him as he did. I think the starting point of that desire was the way Hurin spoke to him when he was brought before him. Morgoth would not have taken that from a 'pathetic, upstart human'. Morgoth decided to completely break Hurin.So, while from our point of view, everything Hurin said about Morgoth was true, Morgoth simply was not going to respond 'You know, Hurin, yopu're right, I have been a thoroughly bad lot over the years, haven't I?. So, it was Hurin's PROUD defiance of him that provoked Morgoth into what he did to Hurin. Actually, I don't much think he cared about destroying Turin & the rest of his family - that was just a good way of teaching Hurin a lesson & breaking his spirit.

[Numenorean]

Unless I misunderstand you Kuru (and it wouldn't be the first time smilies/wink.gif ) You seem to hold Turins tactics, strategy and mindset wholly responsible for the fall of Nargothrond?
“When the overwhelming force was unleashed by Morgoth, that was the result of Turin's policy.”
But are we forgetting a crucial factor of anothers free will here? Specifically the free will of the King of Nargothrond and his subjects at this time, Orodreth. He alone led his people, and at no time do I recall Turin seizing power from the King, he earnt his respect through military success and valour:
Silm. (P.253)
“So great was his prowess and skill in warfare on the confines of the Guarded Plain that he himself became known as Mormegil, the Black Sword”
and as a result:
“In the time that followed Turin grew high in favour with Orodreth”
Ok, so Turins idea of warfare differed from the Elves, but for a while it worked, and Orodreth had the power of command to lead Nargothrond whichever way he so desired. As we know he opted to follow Turins councils, so is it not then Orodreth who should ultimately be blamed, if blame is therefore being served? Without the order of the King, the Elves of Nargothrond may indeed have maintained their stealth & run tactics, for a while longer. The coming of Glaurung though was inevitable. Given his super-senses of eyesight, influence and awareness, I think that the Fall of Nargothrond, given the Doom of the Noldor, was also therefore fait accompli, whether Turin was there or not.
As to the power or extent thereof of Morgoths curse upon his victims, I found the following statements from Gwindor about Turin quite interesting:
Silm. (P.253)
A doom lies on him
and
Silm. (P.254)
...his right name is Turin son of Hurin, whom Morgoth holds in Angband, and whose kin he has cursed. Doubt not the power of Morgoth Bauglir! Is it not written in me?

It seems that Gwindor is in no doubt that the power of the curse is very real and not to be underestimated. To me this ties in with what the Saucepan dude stated:
if at least an element of Turin's actions can be governed by the curse, going against the general rule that Men have free will, then why should they not all not be so governed?

And Davem I agree with your claim about Morgoth that:
I don't much think he cared about destroying Turin & the rest of his family - that was just a good way of teaching Hurin a lesson & breaking his spirit
Morgoth was confident enough that through his power in the curse the family would inevitably be destroyed. If their 'free will' had been any kind of threat to the curse itself, he would surely have failed to ruin them all as utterly as he did.

[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Numenorean ]

[Lalaith]

Lets not forget that Morgoth had Hurin captured alive beforeHurin had said anything to defy him. He clearly had plans for him already. Why? Here are some possibilities:
1. He wanted, as lots of us have already pointed out, to find Gondolin.
2. He wanted to make an example of him. Hurin, before he had said a word to Morgoth, symbolised something to both men and elves - he was supremely brave and loyal, and his actions at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad defied everything that Morgoth stood for, far more than any words he could have said. Hurin dead would just be another corpse, but Hurin spiritually overcome would really be something, a great show of power. As Turgon said: "Even Hurin Thalion has surrendered to the will of Morgoth."
3. He wanted to drive a rift between men and elves. To alienate Hurin, who previously had been prepared to give up his life for the Firstborn, would be a great achievement for him.

And Saucepan Man, I'm so glad you feel the same way about that wretch Turgon. To use Thalion as cannon fodder. Fie and shame.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"So, if at least an element of Turin's actions can be governed by the curse, going against the general rule that Men have free will, then why should they not all not be so governed?"

External factors influence *all* human choices. If it weren't for said factors there would *be* no choices. It is the power to make choices that is the essence of free will. Turin's *actions* were *never* governed by the curse. His actions were without exception self chosen.

Turin *chose* to take the actions that led to Saeros' death. He *could* have controlled his (justified) anger and brought the matter before Thingol instead of deciding to impose a punishment of his own devising leading inadvertantly to Saeros' death. Whereupon rather than answering for his deeds to Thingol, he decides to flee as a self declared outlaw. And none of these bad choices can have been influenced by Morgoth since his power cannot reach into Doriath.

This however establishes that Turin is rash, thoughtless, and impulsive. After leaving the protection of the Girdle the 'shadow' described by Manthor falls on him encouraging his natural faults and increasing the chances for further bad decisions but *not* causing them. Turin continues to be the master of his own actions. He could have minimized the effect of the curse, even negated it altogether by mastering his faults. Unfortunately he never does.

[Kuruharan]

Ahhhh! My favorite time in the thread, when there are three different lines of discussion to keep track of...hee hee hee.

I see it as the product of rational thought rather than pure, uncontrolled emotion.


Well, there was some sort of thought that went into this. We may just have to agree to disagree on the degree to which each ingredient played a role in the decision. (I think that I may have just exceeded my quota for words in one sentence ending in "gree.") However, for me the strongest line of evidence is...

But he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open... (emphasis mine)

Seems just a bit emotional.

But are we forgetting a crucial factor of anothers free will here? Specifically the free will of the King of Nargothrond and his subjects at this time, Orodreth. He alone led his people, and at no time do I recall Turin seizing power from the King, he earnt his respect through military success and valour....so is it not then Orodreth who should ultimately be blamed, if blame is therefore being served? Without the order of the King, the Elves of Nargothrond may indeed have maintained their stealth & run tactics, for a while longer.

This is certainly true. Orodreth bears a heavy part of the blame. However, the change in policy was Turin's idea, so he also bears a heavy part of the blame.

(Orodreth was not the brightest bulb on the porch.)

I think that the Fall of Nargothrond, given the Doom of the Noldor, was also therefore fait accompli, whether Turin was there or not.

Yes it was. I never believed that they could hold out indefinitely. They could have held out longer than they did and made a much greater bloody snarl of things.

But he was clearly ONLY interested in seeing Hurin's spirit broken, which is why he dealt with him as he did.

I think you are right in your point, to a certain degree. However, Morgoth was clearly interested in matters beyond breaking Hurin. He hated and feared Turgon because he believed that ruin would eventually come to him from Turgon. That in and of itself provides some other interests in the matter. Hurin knew where Turgon might be found, and Morgoth wanted to know that.

Precisely. If Turin's doom is brought about solely by choices based upon the exercise of free will, then the curse of Morgoth is superfluous. If, on the other hand, Morgoth's curse played some part in his downfall, then this represents a restriction on his free will, to the extent of the part played by the curse.



Perhaps it should not be looked on as a restriction so much as an encumbrance. It dragged him down and made it more likely that he would perform certain actions, but it did not keep him from doing something else.

that wretch Turgon

My Gracious... :eek:

[The Saucepan Man]

We may just have to agree to disagree on the degree to which each ingredient played a role in the decision.

Agreed. smilies/wink.gif The degree to which logic on the one hand and emotion on the other influenced the strategy adopted by Turin does not really affect my central point on the manner in which Morgoth’s curse operated.

And none of these bad choices can have been influenced by Morgoth since his power cannot reach into Doriath.

I see no reason why the curse of Morgoth, once pronounced, should not affect Hurin’s kin wherever they might be, even while they are in Doriath. It does not follow from the fact that Morgoth’s forces cannot physically enter, that the curse will be prevented from operating while they are there. Indeed, both Morwen and Nienor make decisions central to the ultimate outcome of the curse while in Doriath: Morwen’s decision to search out her son and Nienor’s decision to follow her mother. I don’t see Morgoth as having influenced those decisions, or indeed Turin’s actions with regard to Saeros. It is more that the events conspire to ensure that the consequences of the courses of action that they choose lead them further towards their doom.

External factors influence *all* human choices. If it weren't for said factors there would *be* no choices. It is the power to make choices that is the essence of free will. Turin's *actions* were *never* governed by the curse. His actions were without exception self chosen.

Yes, external factors do influence human behaviour. And, in the normal course of events, their existence is compatible with the concept of free will, as choice is freely exercised within the external parameters which are set. But here, we are talking about a curse. And not just any curse, but one uttered by the most powerful being in ME (originally the most powerful being in all of Arda). The way I see it, the curse operates by bringing the external factors, which would normally define the exercise of free will, together in such away that they effectively limit, and ultimately negate, the subject’s free will. Yes, choices may freely be made in response to individual situations, but circumstances will ultimately conspire against the subject so as to seal his or her fate.

... the 'shadow' described by Manthor falls on him encouraging his natural faults and increasing the chances for further bad decisions but *not* causing them.

It dragged him down and made it more likely that he would perform certain actions, but it did not keep him from doing something else.

But this illustrates what I was trying (probably very badly) to explain. If the curse is influencing Turin’s fate by increasing the chances of his decisions going awry, then it is limiting his free will. This is not a case of an external factor indirectly influencing his behaviour, such as a mountain in his way causing him to go round it, but an external factor which is having a direct effect on his capacity to make decisions. In these circumstances, Turin’s choices are not wholly his own. His capacity for free choice is, to some degree, restricted by the operation of the curse. So, if the curse operates in this manner, then it will inherently involve some circumvention of the concept of Man’s free will.

However, I see it as operating slightly differently. Turin does have complete freedom to decide the course of action that he takes in response to any given situation. The curse does not increase his chances of making the wrong decision, but ensures that, whatever decision he does make will be the wrong one, effectively (and ultimately) robbing him of his free will. And it is in this context that I see the tragedy of the tale: no matter how hard he struggles, through choices freely made, to avoid his doom, it is all ultimately to no avail.

And now, I think that I am starting to repeat myself smilies/rolleyes.gif , so we may just have to agree to disagree on this one, Morwen. smilies/smile.gif

[Lalaith]

choices may freely be made in response to individual situations, but circumstances will ultimately conspire against the subject so as to seal his or her fate.

Free will is a Christian concept. The pagan North European believed in "luck" or fortune: gaefa in old Norse. Translate it as luck, fate or fortune, it is a complicated concept, and packs far more of a moral punch than the word "luck" does in our modern world picture. A man of luck - gaefumadr - does things and they work out for him. He is a man you want on your side. Meanwhile, a man of ill luck constantly causes rows and upsets wherever he goes and whatever he does, and eventually his 'ogaefa' (ill luck) becomes so overwhelming that astute and sensitive people can pick him out as what he is, even in a crowd. To me, poor Turin was very much an 'ogaefumadr', a man of ill luck. That's what I meant when I said that the Narn felt more pagan than other works of Tolkien. By bringing the curse of Morgoth into it, I wonder if Tolkien wasn't bringing a clearer moral lens to the puzzle of pagan 'gaefa.'

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"And now, I think that I am starting to repeat myself , so we may just have to agree to disagree on this one, Morwen."

I know I'm repeating myself. Yes, let's agree to disagree.

[davem]

I wonder how much Morgoth did fear Turgon & the power of Gondolin - His forces destroyed the city in less than a day. We have to keep in mind that, within ME, the accounts were written by his enemies, Elves & Men. Tolkien was well aware that all historical accounts are biased. Look at the stated facts, not the Elves' interpretations. If Morgoth was REALLY afraid of the power of Gondolin, he simply wouldn't have played with Hurin for so long. I suspect he was a lot more confident than is made out.

I don't think Morgoth had any plans for Hurin, or intentions for his fate before he was captured - how could he know he would be captured? I think he was probably surprised (& happy) that he got him, but his plans would have been formulated there & then. He was thinking on his feet. Hurin was a 'gift'. He decided on his course of action based in part on how Hurin behaved before him. If he'd been really desperate to get infomation from him, he'd have put Hurin through torture, broken his mind & got it.

Tragically, I don't think Morgoth saw Hurin as anything more than a proud upstart who needed breaking, & teaching to respect his 'betters'. The fact that he could also do more damage in a wider context would just have been seen as a bonus.

[Lalaith]

But davem, the Silmarillion says "but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth."
The implication being, surely, that they would have just put him to death, like the others, but that Morgoth had particular plans for him.

I find it a problem in this discussion that there are various bits of the story in two different books, the Sil and UT. Does HoME have a complete narrative, can anyone tell me?

[Findegil]

The History of Middle-Earth is not giving full storys of things given in bits in other books. The natur of The History of Middle-Earth is to give even more bits not less. In the case of the Narn î Chin Húrin you will find in the The History of Middle-Earth a chapter about Dríhavel the poet of the Story, a further discription of Hurins and Hours stay in Gondolin, a further acount of the Nirneath Arnoediad, a few drafts for the revelation of the truth about Níniel to Túrin that were not taken up in the story and last but not least The Wanderings of Húrin which discriebed Húrins dealings in Hithlum after his release his approch towards Gondolin and the disaster of Brethil promoted by Húrins coming before the text braeks of.
In addition you can find some older telling of the story (espacialy The Lay of the Children of Húrin)that will add much detail but are not cannon.

Posted by davem:
If he'd been really desperate to get infomation from him, he'd have put Hurin through torture, broken his mind & got it.

Morgoth tried exactly that. But he found him harder than he had expacted. Then he tried to bride him over by the promis of wealth and high rank in his army. But that didn't work either and led Húrin only to mockery. I think that what angered Morgoth mostly was that Húrin precived the truth: Morgoth hadn't any way to get the information out of him as long as he was steadfast.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Numenorean]

Sorry for not letting this aspect of the thread die out, but when Morwen said:
Turin *chose* to take the actions that led to Saeros' death
and Saucepan followed with:
I see no reason why the curse of Morgoth, once pronounced, should not affect Hurin’s kin wherever they might be, even while they are in Doriath
It got me thinking about a couple of things in the Narn that could also be relevant. In his youth Queen Melian the Maia watches over Turin and sets another to do so in her absence, Nellas. Why though? Wasn't Doriath safe for him? Did Melian perceive that the curse would find a way to reach Turin, even within her protected realm?
Given the actions and behaviour of Saeros, she was far-sighted to do so. Which of course leads me to Saeros. What the hell was he on? By all accounts he treated Turin with nothing other than than contempt throughout his formative years. It amazes me that Turin held himself in check for as long as he did, even so "...the silence of Turin displeased Saeros as much as his words" So whatever way we look at it Saeros was out to mock and injure Turin. But what was his black motivation, maybe because he (Turin) was a kinsman of Beren? That seems too loose an association to warrant such 'veiled malice' against lets face it, an innocent youth.
The words of Mablung after the Saeros/Turin dinner table confrontation - U.T (P.81)- offer room for speculation: ...if either be slain it will be an evil deed, more fit for Angband than Doriath, and more evil will come of it...I think that some shadow of the North has reached out to touch us tonight. 'Take heed Saeros son of Ithilbor, lest you do the will of Morgoth in your pride, and remember that you are of the Eldar.'
Saeros of course heeds nothing and instead tries to kill Turin in cold blood from behind, no warning or honor, just a dirty sneak attack that does seem like he is doing the 'will of Morgoth in his pride'. Saeros activated a dark chain of events and brought his doom on himself, but more so on Turin, Morwen and Nienor. Which takes me back to Nellas the maiden, if she hadn't still been watching over Turin, the whole sorry Saeros episode would likely have never been fully explained, and Turin thought guilty of baseless murder. Did Melian therefore forsee that the curse was always going to find its mark, even in Doriath?

[davem]

Findegil, its maybe not something to get into, but I think if you look into it at all, you'll see that torture ALWAYS works. Sorry, but the human body is incredibly sensitive to pain, & also to psychological torture. EVERYONE breaks. They just do. Unless they die first. Morgoth could have broken Hurin, if he'd felt it was important enough. I think the 'torture' Morgoth inflicted on Hurin was designed to cause him extreme pain & distress. But not to get information.

If Morgoth was truly afraid of the power of Gondolin, he would have continued with the torture, not stopped, until Hurin had either told everything he knew, or had died in the process. Come on - Morgoth, REALLY TERRIFIED, gives up on trying to get the info out of Hurin?? No, Morgoth was up to something else. Basically, slowly try & destroy Hurin's spirit, because he took pleasure in that kind of thing.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"Findegil, its maybe not something to get into, but I think if you look into it at all, you'll see that torture ALWAYS works. Sorry, but the human body is incredibly sensitive to pain, & also to psychological torture. EVERYONE breaks. They just do. Unless they die first."

Actually this isn't true - read the accounts of the Sixteenth and Seventeenth century martyrs sometime. But it's immaterial anyway. We are talking about Middle Earth here not the real world.

And it is a mistake to assume that every act of malice in Beleriand is directly attributable to Morgoth. People, Elves and Men, are perfectly capable of being nasty, petty and vicious on their own.

[Kuruharan]

I wonder how much Morgoth did fear Turgon & the power of Gondolin - His forces destroyed the city in less than a day....If Morgoth was REALLY afraid of the power of Gondolin, he simply wouldn't have played with Hurin for so long....If Morgoth was truly afraid of the power of Gondolin, he would have continued with the torture, not stopped, until Hurin had either told everything he knew, or had died in the process.

Morgoth was not afraid of the military strength of Gondolin; that wasn't it at all. What he was afraid of (without knowing it) was that Tuor and Idril (Turgon's daughter) were going to poop out Earendil, who would bring down the wrath of the Valar.

To cite the words of the sub-creator himself...

and of Gondolin he [Morgoth] knew nothing, and the thought of Turgon troubled him the more.
p. 193

Now the thought of Morgoth dwelt ever upon Turgon; for Turgon had escaped him, of all his foes that one whom he most desired to take or to destroy...Morgoth feared Turgon; for of old in Valinor his eye had lighted upon him, and whenever he drew near a shadow had fallen on his spirit, foreboding that in some time that lay hidden, from Turgon ruin should come to him.
p. 240


I trust that clears up any confusion there may exist about the feelings that Morgoth held about Turgon.

And about your points about torture, as Morwen already said this is not the primary world that we are discussing, and Hurin is not your ordinary man.

We have the story the way that Tolkien told it and in that story Morgoth tried to daunt Hurin with his eye, put him in slow torture for months, and ultimately put a fearsome curse on Hurin's family. Hurin did not break. Aside from killing him, there was nothing more that Morgoth could do to him.

And as I have said all along, you are overemphasizing the "toying with Hurin" aspect of the episode.

[The Saucepan Man]

But it's immaterial anyway. We are talking about Middle Earth here not the real world.

And about your points about torture, as Morwen already said this is not the primary world that we are discussing, and Hurin is not your ordinary man.

Absolutely. In a world of Dark Lords, Dragons and curses, there is no reason why resistance to torture should not be possible. This is a heroic Age, after all, and Hurin is one of the most heroic of them all. He wasn't known as the Steadfast for nothing.

It seems to me, in any event, that he did suffer unimaginable torture over a great period of time. For some 30 years, he was made to watch his family systematically being destroyed. As I said earlier, I can (as a husband and father) think of nothing worse to have to endure. And yet Hurin never cracked.

[davem]

First, I can't see anything in any of the writings which imply that Morgoth could have ANY concept of Earendel. How could he possibly?

I still haven't seen ANY evidence that Morgoth was TRULY afraid of his oponents at this time. If he was he would have gone on torturing Hurin till he was dead or till he gave up the information Morgoth wanted.

Finally, Hurin was human. Human's are human, whatever the situation, or whatever the time period they live in. Extended torture creates psychological as well as physical damage. Morgoth also had magic - he could manipulate what people saw & believed - as we see with Beren's companion (who's name I can't think of.

Sorry, I read/understand the story differently from the rest of you. I understand Morgoth's motives differently. I'm not saying my way is right - in fact all I've really been doing is putting forward my own view.

[Lalaith]

Davem, don't apologise! It wouldn't be such an interesting debate if we all agreed, would it?

[Kuruharan]

Alas, I'm afraid that I was misunderstood.

First, I can't see anything in any of the writings which imply that Morgoth could have ANY concept of Earendel. How could he possibly?

I did not say that Morgoth was directly aware of Earendil.

I said that Tolkien said that Morgoth believed that ruin would come to him from Turgon, as in fact it did. That ruin happened to take the form of Earendil. I initially rendered this in slightly different terms, but then I provided my backing for it.

I still haven't seen ANY evidence that Morgoth was TRULY afraid of his oponents at this time.

Again I quote the man himself...

...Morgoth feared Turgon...
p. 240

That is a flat statement of fact in the context of the story. You may disagree with it to your heart's content, but you will have to take the matter up with Tolkien, he wrote the story.

If he was he would have gone on torturing Hurin till he was dead or till he gave up the information Morgoth wanted.


That is your interpretation of the circumstances, which tends to go against certain statements actually made in the book.

Human's are human, whatever the situation, or whatever the time period they live in. Extended torture creates psychological as well as physical damage.

Yes, but this is not our world.

Morgoth also had magic...

An example of one of the ways in which Middle Earth is not our world.

There are some things that have to be accepted in the context of the story. It is part of the suspension of disbelief.

Sorry, I read/understand the story differently from the rest of you. I understand Morgoth's motives differently. I'm not saying my way is right - in fact all I've really been doing is putting forward my own view.

You can, and will, believe whatever you wish. However, judging from some of the things that you have said, there were certain aspects of the text that you had given insufficient attention too. I am trying to point out some of them and explain some of the ramifications of these passages so that you can have a more complete understanding of the story.

Davem, don't apologise! It wouldn't be such an interesting debate if we all agreed, would it?

Especially not on fun threads like this where not many of us have agreed on much of anything.

[ May 21, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[davem]

I'm uncomforatble with the idea of Men in ME being TOO different from ourselves. I relate to them simply because I don't see them as being that different from us.

Secondly, I still can't see Morgoth's actions as implying real fear - he is too casual in his attempt to get information from Hurin. He simply takes too long, if he's really afraid. Also, while he may have been afraid of Turgon in the past, was he still so afraid after the Nirnaith, when Turgon had run away, leaving Hurin & Huor to their fates (as Morgoth would have seen it)? Without knowledge of Earendel, he could only have thought of Turgon as a military threat, & as I said, he was convinced the VALAR weren't going to intervene.

He was then at his most powerful, his ememies defeated & scattered. Also, the fact that the Elves, in their accounts, say Morgoth was afraid of Turgon, doesn't make it true. If you were reading the Sil as a historical account, & you knew it was a 'biased' account, if you just took the stated facts of Morgoths behaviour & left aside the 'interpretations' of the writers, would you really see Morgoth as a frightened being, desperate to get information about his enemies location to save his skin? None of his ACTUAL behaviour makes me think that.

Finally, I know this is a fun debate - I hope everyone else does. I'd hate anyone to take anything I say as anything more.

[Findegil]

For what purpose other than getting information of Turgons city would Morgoth give the order to take Húrin alive? It was a very expensive order. Húrin made a great last stand and killed a lot of enemy's. Of course Morgoth had Orcs and Trolls in great numbers, but the relative slow success in the war after the Nirneath Arnoediad showed that he had suffer great looses there.

I do not believe that Morgoth had any fear of military actions of Turgon. But that doesn't mean he had no fear at all. He had heard the music of the Ainur to its end. So he did know that he was doomed in the end even when he denied it. And he did know very well that his first defeat (as he clearly would see the downfall of Utumno) had been brought about by Manwe, the chief instrument of Ilúvatars second theme. And the children of Ilúvatar entered with the third theme.
So taking the view that what the Elves told us in their books is not without a bit of truth lying behind it, we could assume that since they had been in contact with Morgoth in Valinor it is not completely unthinkable that the Elves had marked a special tension between Morgoth and Turgon.
Thinking about the hole story in the end and how desperately Morgoth tried to bring Turgon down (he sent an army that was sufficient for a big war only to attack a single city - one Dragon only was send against Nargothrond and no Balrog, but a host of dragons and at least a couple of Balrogs against Gondolin!) we can very well assume that interest in the knowledge of Húrin about Gondolin was the reason for taking him alive, and the reason to torture him.
What we know about the strive of Morgoth with Húrin and Húrins further stay in Angband, we do not only know through Húrin himself. Slaves as Gwindor did even know about it. And did report it when they escaped.

The account is clearly tainted by its trading through the elves and the composer (a man of the House of Hador how managed to fly to the mouth of Sirion). But if you do not deny it at all as being only a fair tale (which it actually is smilies/wink.gif), you most admit that some bit of truth may lie behind any motive shown in it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[davem]

I don't think Melkor was paying much attention to the what the music was prophecying. Also, not being able to concieve of Earendel, what else could Morgoth have feared from Turgon, other than military force? Why else would he have used such force. I think Morgoth saw Gondolin as a possible threat, but only a vague one. He is just as likely to have used devastating force simply to show off.

Morgoth's behaviour just doesn't make sense to me unless he really is laid back about the whole thing, or at least feels he has plenty of time to take over ME.

[Kuruharan]

davem: You can think what you like about the issue, but the text flatly states that Morgoth feared Turgon because he feared that "ruin" would come to him from Turgon. I don’t see how it could possibly be any clearer than that.

If you were reading the Sil as a historical account, & you knew it was a 'biased' account, if you just took the stated facts of Morgoths behaviour & left aside the 'interpretations' of the writers
--
The account is clearly tainted by its trading through the elves and the composer


Here we have a pretty knotty issue. How much of the story can we accept as being fact in its own context?

Granted, the story is couched as being an Elvish history of the wars. Also granted, Tolkien could and did disagree from some of the things that his characters said. In the Silmarillion there is an example where the belief is raised that Orcs were bred from Elves. Tolkien changed his mind about this, and so that passage in the books became part of the "Elvish" interpretation of the world that was not wholly correct. There are a few other examples of this in the stories.

However, the statements relating to Morgoth’s fear of Turgon do not seem to fall into that category.

I cannot recall that there is ever a breath of writing anywhere in all of Tolkien’s works that indicates Tolkien ever doubted Morgoth feared that Turgon (or his family) were somehow going to be involved in his ultimate demise (although I am open if anybody wants to point out something that I missed.) But other than that, there is just no reason to doubt it.

Yes, the story is supposedly written by Elvish historians, but it also contains the Sub-Creator’s thoughts about his own story. If we are wanting to discuss the works of Tolkien as we have them, then we have to accept the fact that he sometimes means what he writes about Middle Earth. Otherwise it is Fan Fiction and not Tolkien.

There is no place that indicates Tolkien changed his mind about this issue, so there is no reason to doubt it. You may continue to disagree about it, but you can’t deny that the book says the words "Morgoth feared Turgon." If we want to stick with what Tolkien wrote, that is what we have to accept.

And, just when you thought that the thread had drifted off into a debate on whether the texts say what they mean…

Saucepan Man:

Like a criminal returning to the scene of the crime, I feel a need to go back to this issue of limitations, restrictions, and encumbrances on Free Will.

The way I see it, the curse operates by bringing the external factors, which would normally define the exercise of free will, together in such away that they effectively limit, and ultimately negate, the subject’s free will. Yes, choices may freely be made in response to individual situations, but circumstances will ultimately conspire against the subject so as to seal his or her fate.

As an aside, I’m not sure that just because things turned out a certain way that it represents a negation of Free Will. However, I have not clearly formed my thought on this subject, so I may return to it in a later post.

Back to limitations/restrictions vs. encumbrances. In my mind these do not represent the same thing.

I think of limits and restrictions as being bounds or walls around the actions of the character that absolutely prevent said character from acting outside of the bounds of the restriction in question, in this case the Curse on Hurin’s family. What I understand you to mean is that the curse set up a fixed "box" around Hurin’s family, outside of which they could not operate. Is that what you mean?

What I meant by the term "encumbrance" was more along the lines of a burden weighing down the family and making it more likely that their actions would have disastrous consequences. However, I don’t think that is a limit that fixed them inside the parameters of something that they could not act outside of, it strikes me as being more of a propensity.

So, were these two different viewpoints that we were presenting, or were we saying the same thing in different ways? Or are we splitting hairs about a very abstract concept?

Any thoughts?

[The Saucepan Man]

davem:

Morgoth's behaviour just doesn't make sense to me unless he really is laid back about the whole thing, or at least feels he has plenty of time to take over ME.

But we are only talking about 30 years here, which in terms of an immortal being such as Morgoth who had terrorised ME for thousands of years, is not a great deal of time. It might be seen as akin to a human torturer leaving his subject to suffer for a day or so. And yet it would, no doubt have seemed an eternity to Hurin, who nevertheless remained steadfast throughout. When that ploy didn't work (after only a relatively short time to Morgoth's reckoning), he set Hurin free to see if that might bring him any closer to his desire (locating Gondolin), which it in fact did.

Kuruharan:

As an aside, I’m not sure that just because things turned out a certain way that it represents a negation of Free Will.

Well, it's not a negation of the free will to act in response to particular given situations. Rather it is a negation of the free will to affect the ultimate outcome. I see this as being how the Doom pronounced by Mandos on the exiled Noldor (also referred to as a Curse) worked:

Tears unnumbered ye shall shed ... On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well ...

Now. although the actions of the exiled Noldor were not controlled and they were able to determine their own responses to individual situations, the fate pronounced upon them by Mandos nevertheless came true. Circumstances conspired against them to bring this about. Even if you take it as a prophecy, they are nevertheless unable to avoid its outcome, however much they struggle to escape it. I see the Curse pronounced by Morgoth on Hurin's kin in much the same way. It sets in train a chain of events that leads to its ultimate conclusion, namely their utter physical and mental destruction.

I think of limits and restrictions as being bounds or walls around the actions of the character that absolutely prevent said character from acting outside of the bounds of the restriction in question,

I don't see the Curse as being a limitation on the actions of Hurin's Hini, such as might (to use an extreme example) be presented by their incarceration in a doorless cell. They (like the exiled Noldor) were free to determine their individual responses to particular situations. But the situations presented to them, and their responses to those situations, were always fated to lead them to their doom. They were unable to alter the outcome.

What I meant by the term "encumbrance" was more along the lines of a burden weighing down the family and making it more likely that their actions would have disastrous consequences.

Well, it depends on how you say Morgoth's Curse is making this "more likely". If you are saying that it acts by influencing their decisions or emphasising their character failings, making it more likely that they will act in this or that way, then I disagree. But if you are saying that fate is conspiring (through the situations that they are presented with) to increase the likelihood that their decisions have the disastrous consequences that they in fact do have, then we are probably:

... saying the same thing in different ways

Except that I would go so far as to say that fate was conspiring to guarantee this outcome.

Either way, we are most probably:

... splitting hairs about a very abstract concept

But isn't that what this forum is for? smilies/wink.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[Kuruharan]

I see you found your saucepans!!! :)

(Now if only I could find an avatar that I liked...)

But the situations presented to them, and their responses to those situations, were always fated to lead them to their doom. They were unable to alter the outcome.

-and-

But if you are saying that fate is conspiring (through the situations that they are presented with) to increase the likelihood that their decisions have the disastrous consequences that they in fact do have

I think that I understand you better now.

And I would say that it is actually a mixture of both Morgoth's will dragging them in a certain direction and circumstances conspiring against them. So we were sort of talking about the same thing and sort of not.

Earlier you mentioned the Doom of Mandos. I'm not sure that this is entirely a curse. I think that Prophesy is a better word for most of it, although there is a curse aspect to it. Much of what Mandos told them did not require the intervention of the Valar. I believe that it did not take a genius to foresee that the Noldor could not defeat Morgoth. This being the case they would inevitably, through force of circumstances, be brought down to the wretched state that Mandos foretold. It was also fairly easy to see that the Oath of Feanor would inevitably lead to dissension, although this may be one place where the power of the Valar worked against them. I think that the main area where the actual curse comes in is in the closing of Valinor. This essentially sealed their fate.

So, the fact that the Noldor could not defeat Morgoth (which did not require the Valar to do anything), combined with the closing of Valinor (which was the primary action the Valar took), allowed circumstances to progress to their inevitable conclusion.

I think in this it is easier to see the different nature of the Elves. There was a greater inevitability to this situation than I feel was in the situation of Hurin and Company.

With the Hurin curse I think that the power of Morgoth played a greater role. This is not to say that circumstances were not important, but I think that the different nature of Man required that Morgoth's baneful influence be more strongly applied to ensure that things turned out as they did. The words "my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom" tends to make me believe this. So, I believe that it was a mixture of circumstance and Morgoth's influence.

However, and this is something obvious that I had not thought of until just now, but Morgoth was able to keep Hurin from dying so maybe he could remove the Free Will from his family...

[The Saucepan Man]

Now if only I could find an avatar that I liked...

Surely their must be some Dwarf and pet Dragon combo out there that takes your fancy ... smilies/wink.gif smilies/smile.gif

Much of what Mandos told them did not require the intervention of the Valar.

Although, of course, Hurin and his son did play their respective parts in the downfalls of Nargothrond and Gondolin. And their actions were not controlled or influenced by the Valar, although (in my theory at least) they were governed by fate.

So, I believe that it was a mixture of circumstance and Morgoth's influence.

Actually, I agree with you here. Morgoth's influence was there through the deployment of his forces, in particular Glaurung. But it is the combination of circumstances and Morgoth's intervention (through Glaurung) which I see as drawing them to their fate. Morgoth's direct intervention alone could not have acheived it.

[ May 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Lalaith]

Prophecies and curses,logically, *do* negate the concept of free will.
Regarding the importance of Turgon and Gondolin to Morgoth, re-reading the Fifth Battle chapter in the Sil I would say that not only was it hugely important but that everyone involved was aware of this. It was the whole point of the sacrifice of the men of Dor-lomin. And Huor even prophecises to Turgon, before the Fen of Serech, that "from you and from me a new star shall arise."
I'd also like to bring in a point related to the original title of the thread...
Earlier, somebody talked about Norse myth, and the idea of fighting evil even though it was pointless.But Hurin's battle cry, Aure enteluva, seems to me to be the essence of hope.
But the utterly bleak outcome of the tale of Hurin seems to imply that hope = hubris. Or is the tale intended as a contrast to the hope inherent in the line of Hurin's brother Huor?

[Kuruharan]

But the utterly bleak outcome of the tale of Hurin seems to imply that hope = hubris.

I don't think that's what it represents. Hope and hubris are two different things. I suppose that excessive hope could lead to hubris, but I don't think that the story is intended to imply that hope=hubris. I don't really think that the Tale of Hurin deals with hope in that particular way.

Or is the tale intended as a contrast to the hope inherent in the line of Hurin's brother Huor?

Possibly.

[Lord of Angmar]

I think that free will and prophecies/curses are separate entities in Middle-earth. While obviously the House of Hurin was cursed, it was not the curse that wrought Turin and Hurin's destiny, I believe, but the fact that all their actions were based on the knowledge that this curse existed. I think that the curse itself did not alter their destinies, but that through the lies of Morgoth and of Glaurung, and through their own actions which they took in efforts to avoid or put off the curse, their doom was wrought for them.

[alatar]

Note that this post may get icky, and so you might want to leave now.

Morwen has always struck me as too cold & 'stand offish'. It does make me wonder how much her husband & so are trying to 'live up' to her standards. Maybe we should have looked more deeply into Morwen's influence.
There something odd in Turin's and Morwen's relationship. Weren't other humans successfully raised by elven foster parents (Aragorn II)? Weren't other successful humans sundered from their mothers at an early age (Eowyn, Faramir, etc)? What of all of the nameless faceless orphans that eked out lives amidst all of the disasters and wars that made up life in Middle Earth?

What was so special about Turin, except that he was the son of Hurin the Cursed (which is yet another issue)?

I found this link (http://www.soulwork.net/sw_articles_eng/little_prince.htm) that may be of some interest regarding Turin's relationship with Morwen. Note that it deals with human psychology and relationships and so may be more than you want to read. You can see this somewhat informative list pegs Turin:


Are YOU involved with a Mother-Bonded Man?

Does a man in your life ...

* obsess about his mother?
* acts as if women should serve him?
* cannot maintain a stable partnership?
* act like a child ... or like a tyrant ... or both?
* brag, lie and boast as he tries to be special?
* is a narcissist - he demands attention or he leaves?
* chase women - quantity not happiness is important?
* have few if any friends, and cannot commit to teamwork?
* does not care if he damages other people's relationships?
* do these things repeatedly but energetically deny them?
* avoid any form of coaching or counseling on these issues?

What effect did Morwen have on Turin's developing personality? Did she dote a little too much on Turin, using him as an emotional substitute for the missing Hurin? Could Turin not shake his feelings for his mother later in adolescence, making him maladaptive to normal relationships (i.e. Finduilas)? How did this relationship effect little Niënor? How was she 'broken' by a missing father, Turin and living life in the CoH days? Did, when the situation present itself, Turin find himself attracted to Niënor Níniel, as she represented something close to Morwen?

Cursed or not, Turin had psychological issues, and they revolve around mom. Morgoth may have cursed this family, but seemingly he needn't have done much, as they were pretty messed up to begin with.