How Do You Envision Middle-Earth?

[Bill Ferny]

I have some pretty strong images of Middle-Earth in me head, pretty much entrenched over the years. I was surprised at how similar and dissimilar the images presented in the movies were to my own ideas and visions. I’ve also been pretty surprised by some of the interesting takes I’ve stumbled across on the forum, though so far I’ve had to sift through a lot, and truly stumble upon them. This is my rather selfish endeavor to get at least some of you to put these visions and images in one place.

With the movies out there in full swing with its distinct imagery and tone, I wonder how much of our vision of Middle-Earth has been “reduced” to the vision of WETA. Critiques of the movie are more than welcome, as long it stays pertinent to the imagery and vision of Middle-Earth (i.e. no ragging on the script).

This should be a chance for people to post links to their favorite illustrators, comment on what makes sense or doesn’t make sense about their depictions, and even give us some pictures to look at. Describe how you see the Shire, Rohan, Minas Tirith, Barad-dur, etc… Please post your fan art, too. How do you think people fought? What’s in those leather bags on Gandalf’s belt? Is Peter Jackson right about everyone having blue eyes? Is Smaug’s teeth pearly white, or iron grey? Does Saruman really have Christopher Lee's yellow, crooked teeth? Basically this is a free for all. Have fun.

[Diamond18]

This is how I picture the Dead Marshes:

http://www.chalkfarmgallery.com/images/nasmith/Apparitions_detail.jpg

I was surprised, when I saw this, to see how like my own vision it was. It's by Ted Nasmith.

[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Blue eyes? Well, in many cases it was because their eyes were naturally blue. I think that Orlando and Liv were the only two contact wearers... on another note.

Most of what PJ presented was how I envisioned it. I think, though, that out perseptions have been altered by the art we have seen anyway, so it's good he hired the right people.
I really like Ted Nasmith's artwork. It's quite close. I like most of the Hildebrant Brothers' art, but their interpretation of Rivendell is a little off from what I see. It looks like a little Hansel and Gretel house in the woods. I definitely see it being more majestic as it is in the movies. Have you seen that painting?

[Diamond18]

Yes, and I agree. Gingerbread fairy-ish. It was too large to fit comfortably on the screen, so use the link:

Rivendell (http://members.fortunecity.com/gabriella66/lordofrings/hildebrandt/rivendell.jpg)

[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[Bill Ferny]

Diamond18, thanks for the link. I agree with you and Tigerlily. But it does look like something I would expect Tom Bombadil to live in. Ted Nasmith is one of my favorite illustrators as well, and I’d love to sift through his site (http://www.tednasmith.com/main.html), but apparently I can’t because of the way it’s formatted (I can’t seem to access any of the buttons to the far right).

I’ve never seen that picture of the dead marshes, though. Was that in one of the calenders?

I was a little put off by how tall everything was in the movie. Then again, most illustrators seem to go really tall as well. Interestingly enough, this illustration by Alan Lee seems to sum up (pretty much) my standard image of Minas Tirith. Its actually his rendition of Camelot, not a Tolkien inspired image.

Image (http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/gallery/camelot.jpg)

Likewise I really like the archetecture in this picture by Alan Lee, the Lady of the Fountain, and see it as kind of “Gondorian”:

Image (http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/gallery/fountain.jpg)

It also typifies how I would see Arwen dressed as queen (I especially like the hound, very regal). Maybe I’ve been too influenced by Arthurian illustrations over the years.

Edit: the actual pictures were a bit much for comfortable reading, so turned them into links.

[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Manwe Sulimo]

As for locales, I was suprised how much the movie sets were like my own visions of Middle-earth. The only serious differences were Edoras and Caras Galadhon.

[Merri]

I was so ecstatic with the movie simply because they created Middle Earth exactly as I imagined it. smilies/smile.gif

[Artalwen]

I love how PJ portrayed the landscape...it's how I've imagined it, beautiful, GREEN, luscious...gorgeous landscapes, and PJ demonstrated that well.

[The Saucepan Man]

Excellent thread, Bill.

I was surprised at how similar and dissimilar the images presented in the movies were to my own ideas and visions.

Actually, I would go along with what many have said above. On seeing FotR and TTT, I was incredibly struck by how similar practically all of the characters and locations were to my own imaginings when I first read LotR. The Shire, Rivendell, Moria, the river Anduin and the Argonauth, Rauros, Emyn Muil, the Dead Marshes, Isengard, Edoras, Helms Deep (my personal favourite in terms of visualisation), Henneth Annun and the Forbidden Pool, and what I have seen of Minis Tirith are all disconcertingly similar to how I had imagined them.

Good point, Tigerlily, about whether we have been influenced by the art we have seen. I wondered about this after seeing FotR. After first reading LotR, I verged on the obsessive in my quest for illustrations of the book, but there was very little around (commercially) and we did not have the wonderful world wide web in those days. What little I could find was largely disappointing.

I alss wondered whether I might have been influenced by the Bakshi animated film, but I recall that the characters were very disappointing. (Gimli looked like a Shropshire farmer and as for Boromir!) I can't remember much about the locations in it.

Which is a very long winded way of saying how spot on the visualisation in the films is for me (the films have their weaknesses, but I consider this to be one of their main strengths).

I do have a book called "a middle-earth album" with illustartions by Joan Wyatt (dating from 1977) which I think portrays the locations very well (although many of the "creatures" - Balrog, Ents, Orcs etc) are not to my taste and the Great Mallorn is a bit space age).

Here (http://bauerrangers.bei.t-online.de/a_middle-earth_album/) is a link.

smilies/smile.gif

[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Tar-Palantir]

I have experienced the same feeling of the films being very similar to my own interpretations. And I have NOT been exposed to much of the art of Alan Lee or John Howe, or any other. I think a large part of the credit must go more towards JRRT and his vivid descriptions of just about every location of interest.

In fact, much of his detail has too much detail, if that's possible! Exhibit A:

Many great trees grew there, planted long ago, falling into untended age amid a riot of careless descendants; and groves and thickets there were of tamarisk and pungent terebinth, of olive and of bay; and there were junipers and myrtles; and thymes that grew in bushes, or with their woody creeping stems mantled in deep tapestries the hidden stones; sages of many kinds putting forth blue flowers, or red, or pale green; and marjorams and new-sprouting parsleys, and many herbs of forms and scents beyond the garden-lore of Sam. The grots and rocky walls were already starred with saxifrages and stonecrops. Primeroles and anemones were awake in the filbert-brakes; and asphodel and many lily-flowers nodded their half-opened heads in the grass: deep green grass beside the pools, where falling streams halted in cool hollows on their journey down to Anduin.

terebinth? saxifrages? anemones? asphodel?

My generally reliable imagination was put to the test with this paragraph detailing Ithilien!!

[Gorwingel]

The films are pretty similar to the way I imagined Middle Earth when I read the books. But the only differences I mainly had when I read the books were Lorien, and the Dead Marshes. Lorien I thought was going to be brighter, it was very dark in the film. The main thing I think about when I think of Lorien is when they talk about how in the fall, the leaves turn gold, but then they don't fall off. So I imagined all these trees with gold leaves, but I did not see that in the films. Also another thing in Rivendell, I wish they would have shown the Hall of Fire, I think that would have been very impressive and cool.
The Dead Marshes I thought were going to be darker, and more menicing. Because to me they were much more spooky and scary in the book than in the film. In the movie they seemed kind of tame. I also wish they would have shown some of the feasts and gatherings they had during the story.

[Bill Ferny]

Saucepan Man, great link. I really liked Joan Wyatt’s Rivendell… absolutely stunning! I really liked The Hall of Edoras, The Siege of Helm's Deep, and Gandalf Confronts the Lord of the Nazgûl (the mound of dead bodies was brilliant). But how did those flying saucers get into the Mallorn Tree in The Fellowship ascends the Great Mallorn? And Minas Tirith looks like the space station. smilies/smile.gif Also, her ents uncomfortably remind me of things I used to mindlessly kill, one after the other, in the Hibernian frontier in that game I’m rather ashamed to admit I played, Dark Age of Camelot.

Manwe, I’m curious… how did you picture Edoras and Caras Galadhon?

After thinking about it, I think that what was so similar in the movies to what I had before imagined about Middle-Earth was the landscape. New Zealand was a great choice! Of course, I may have been unconsciously biased by having watched, and loved (despite George Lucas), Willow that was also filmed in New Zealand. Architecture in the move, especially because Alan Lee was involved, seemed to fit what I had imagined as well.

However, there were things that were completely different. Some of them were understandable because of various personal factors involved in my reading of the novels, especially in regard to costuming. Others, however, I don’t understand. Though I think it was great to use “real” people as hobbits (no offense intended toward actors of small stature, who by the way were absolutely great in Willow), PJ’s hobbits were very different from what I had imagined. Most prevalent in my mind is how they run through the woods like a pack of elephants through a mall. They are described in the books as being quiet, almost silent, and even Strider in comparison is loud and clumsy.

In regard to weapons and armor, I found WETA’s depiction to be aesthetically pleasing, but not what I had imagined at all (with the possible exception of the Riders of Rohan). I was more impacted by Tolkien’s world in the re-reading, especially when I re-read Tolkien in High School and my early college days. At this time my other huge interest (which in many ways has remained) was the history of the Crusades. Because of this mixture, I have always had a tendency to imagine elements of Middle-Earth, especially Gondor, in terms of the era and atmosphere of the Crusades (circa. AD 1190-1280).

To demonstrate what I’m talking about, I’ve decided to post something I wrote a long time ago. I wrote it purely for exercise back in college (seems like ages ago). Its a eulogy for Lord Tarciryan of Lebennin, a character that I made up.

----------------------------------------
I remember well that day, when behind my noble lord, Tarciryan of Lebennin, we first looked upon the horror of Pelennor Fields, witnessed the press of the Rohirrim, and set our eyes on the beleaguered in the white city. Redfist, my lord’s charger, chopping at the bit for having endured the long voyage on the Corsair’s filthy barge, leapt over the boat’s bulwark with but a slight command from Lord Tarciryan’s spur. It was all I could to do to keep up with my lord, riding but a palfrey, so I could replace, one after the other, my lord’s broken shields and lances. Furious was his charge in the sight of the king’s standard, that glorious white tree, seven diadems, and crown. Honor and glory, my lord, Tarciryan of Lebennin, won that day in the king’s service. His lance, sword and axe was the doom of many an Easterling, Haradrum, Variag, Southron and vile orc and troll. In his fury, my lord’s vengeance was finally spent on those who had threatened the rightful heirs of our golden Lebennin. And with the shout of “To Gondor and the White Tree!” he was mortally wounded by a black arrow fired in fear by a spawn of Khand who dared not approach my lord in honorable contest. In sadness have I went ever after, through all the doubt and victory that followed in those days, mourning for my lord’s life too brief.

My lord, for whom I was but a humble shield bearer, was always a noble man, fair and just and kind. He had no serf on his lands, but all his people were free, though he tolerated not a lazy or willful servant, or one who would beat his wife or children. His halls were renowned for their just judgement and right rule, and Lord Tarciryan was just as fair and virtuous to the stranger and traveler, as long as they were not pledged to the darkness out of the east. He was quick to give shelter to pilgrims to and from the white city, and he too went and paid his homage as is right for the people of Gondor. However, from this last pilgrimage he shall not return, but only his broken sword and a tattered shield, and a single bloodstained banner so that history will remember his deeds and honor will be due his house.

His duty to his pledges he always kept, and never have the Counts of Linhir or the Stewards of Gondor had a better vassal, nor I’ll wage would ever have had the king. His castle was warmed by a hundred fires, his feasts were daily, and his potage rich and hearty. Beer and honey mead were in abundance, as well as pipe weed from lands unknown to the north. Spiced and salted meats, cinnamon, ginger, rice, figs, raisins, pepper, saffron, cloves, mace as well as coffee and teas and herbs of all sorts were plenty and shared even with the peasants who worked the fields. The songs of old were not forgotten in his halls. The lays of days gone by, in which were sung the glory of Númenor, the woe of her fall, and of her heirs in Middle-Earth filled these halls and kept his men brave. Sad now will be the songs in those halls upon my return, and never will the fare of that table seem so rich again.

He was skilled in courtesy, manners, and all the practices that make a man noble and true. He would always abide by the western silence before the evening meal, and he would weep when he faced west and remembered Númenor that was, the land of Valinor that is, and what lies beyond that will ever be. Though he could neither read nor write, he disparaged not such skills in others, even those of lesser rank. He often provided means for his craftsmen and peasants to learn the art of letters if the time could be afforded, and insisted that his wife above all others be versed in the skill. Though she never reached the proper age of consummation, he cared for his wife deeply and saw particularly to her well being and education, but he respected her with compassion as though she were a woman full grown. How she will weep when she hears news of her benefactor’s death, and my heart aches that she should be a widow at such a tender age.

Skilled at falconry, spear, and hound, my lord was able at the hunt, but never would his party trample the fields of the peasants, nor would they leave their dead quarry for the buzzards. He would hunt a boar with only a sword, shunning the spear with cross bar as for men of lesser stature. He would stand before the hunted boar, in front of the creature’s very den, and challenge it forth until it came with a frightening charge. But he made no move, though the beast came on bearing its razor sharp teeth and tusks, until, at the very last moment, he would spring to one side, and with his sword sever the head from the poor beast’s shoulders. Many a young squire attempted to emulate their lord’s daring, and many a young squire won for their trouble the funeral pyre.

He kept his hair short and the back of his head shaved as all respectable men of noble birth keep their hair, and his beard was kept close most of the time. He wore but the humblest of woolen clothes, though made well and sturdy by the seamstresses. Satin and silk seldom brushed his skin, but he remembered his dress when entertaining those greater than he. He was practical in dress as his honor and duty took him often out of doors. He daily visited the peasants in his employ while they labored for his and his family’s behalf, and he was given to long rides in the wilds to inspect the borders of his lands. Many a bandit and man of the east who came to raid and kill the innocent found instead a more cunning and deadly adversary in peasant’s clothing.

But not until witnessed in battle array, astride his destrier, did my lord, the warrior of the south, the scourge of the Corsairs, appear in all his nobility and warlike virtue. His spurs were of mithril silver, a gift from Durin’s Folk to his family so many generations ago that the giving and its ceremony is no longer remembered. His legs were girt in maille chausses and hardened leather greaves over his shins, decorated by skillful hands with the likeness of vines and grapes. Over his quilted and embroidered gambeson he wore a sleeved hauberk of the same strong maille that hung to his knees and had a coif with ventail that he wore over a thickly padded arming cap to protect his blessed head. Over his hauberk he wore one of the few garments of silk in his wardrobe, an embroidered surcoat bearing the red and green of his house and lineage, the dancing lion and the falcon, and the badge of Gondor, the white tree, upon his breast. And over his head he wore a great helm, painted red and green, bearing both the lion and the falcon on either side, and about the eye slot and the breathes a tree scribed in white, the only vision the doomed enemy would have of Lord Tarciryan’s face. On his left arm he bore a shield of linden wood that displayed the heraldry of his family. In a green scabbard, from a belt richly made, was sheathed the sword of Tarciryan’s family, handed down for three generations, polished and oiled and ready for war; its one edge to protect the weak from tyranny, and its other edge to protect Gondor from all her enemies.

It was thus he rode to battle against the invaders, and it was thus that he spurred Redfist to the side of his future king, though all other men hid in fear at the sight of the king’s grim company. It was thus that he rode to victory against the Southron and Corsair in the company of the lord of the dwarves and the prince of the elves. It was thus that he charged the Fields of Pelennor, and many will be the songs of his courage and might. He told me many times that never was a lord at home but among his comrade’s courageous shouts and the painful groans of those wounded and dying on the field of battle, but in quiet times during those dark days he often mused: “I miss the waters of the Gilrain; better to be at home and hearth, peacefully managing the affairs of the earth, than laying waste the lives of men.”
--------------------------------------

This picture by August Racinet (whose brilliant historical illustrations can be found here (http://www.cs.usu.edu/~watson/bartholomew/armorimages.html)), may help the imagination along.

http://www.cs.usu.edu/~watson/bartholomew/frenchArmor/2h.jpg

[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Bill Ferny]

Tar-Palantir, that’s one of those paragraphs that invariably slows the reader down smilies/wink.gif

anemones: any of a genus of perennial herbs of cool and temperate regions having petal-like sepals instead of petals.

asphodel: a plant of the lily family, bearing white or yellow flowers.

juniper: any of a genus of evergreen pinaceous shrubs; especially the common juniper of Europe and America. It has dark-blue berries of a pungent taste, which are used n making gin (wha-hoo!).

marjoram: any of several perennial herbs of the mint family with nearly entire leaves, dense oblong spikes of flowers, and colored bracts.

myrtle: a tree or shrub of southern Europe, originally from Asia. It is a bushy shrub or small tree with glossy evergreen leaves, fragrant white or rose-colored flowers, and black berries.

parsley: a cultivated umbelliferous herb with aromatic, finely divided leaves and greenish-yellow flowers.

primeroles: ? a wild guess here, but this may refer to the primrose. primrose: An early-blossoming perennial herb with tufted basal leaves and variously colored flowers.

sage: a plant of the mint family especially the common garden sage, a stiff, shrubby perennial with gray-green leaves and purple, blue, or white flowers.

saxifrage and stonecrops: any plant of genus saxifraga, growing in rocky places, stonebreak. (saxifragaceous: Of or pertaining to a widely distributed family of herbs, shrubs, and trees, including gooseberries and witch hazel.)

tamarisk: an evergreen shrub of the Mediterranean region, western Asia, and India, with slender branches bearing small, pinkish-white flowers in racemes.

terebinth: a small tree with winged pinnate leaves resembling those of the common ash but smaller.

thyme: any of a genus of small shrubby plants of the mint family, having aromatic leaves and cltivated for seasoning in cookery.

I know what your thinking… well, I had some time on my hands this morning. smilies/smile.gif

[Tar-Palantir]

Thank you, Bill Ferny. I also enjoyed your tale of Lord Tarciryan. May his valor never wane... smilies/smile.gif

[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[Diamond18]

I’ve never seen that picture of the dead marshes, though. Was that in one of the calenders?

It's December for this year's calendar. I got it for Christmas (and of course looked ahead at all the months smilies/wink.gif ).

I like most of Nasmith's art, and I have the edition of The Silmarillion with his images. The only problem I have with him is that the characters don't look right, to me. For instance, the picture of Galadriel (http://www.tednasmith.com/lotr1/TN-Galadriel-Web.jpg) with short, boyish hair is totally weird. And all his characters tend to have the same facial features. The hobbits especially don't look right, and in Boromir's Last Stand (http://www.chalk-farm-gallery.co.uk/images/nasmith/BoromirsLastStand.jpg) especially, one of the Hobbits looks practically Orcish. (Not my Pippin, nooooo!)

Well, so that was negative. I actually have trouble finding character depictions that consistently fit my mental images. But for scenery, I really like Ted Nasmith. smilies/cool.gif

[dragoneyes]

I always found that for some reason I imagine Tom Bombadil to look like a large mole. Maybe it's his name, making me think of a bumbling mole. Him being a mole, he would ONLY wear the boots and coat, very, very brightly coloured. He's the only person I really envisioned, I never really pictured anyone else's face.

[Bill Ferny]

Negative is good too, Diamond18 smilies/smile.gif I see what you mean with Galadriel, and poor, poor Pippin. Its been hard for me to find an illustrator that captures what I imagine about hobbits, dwarves and elves. I particularly don’t care for John Howe’s hobbits (and Aragorn, btw), Ted Nasmith’s elves and hobbits, and Alan Lee’s Gollum and hobbits.

I think the only artist that seems to constantly depict hobbits and dwarves (with big heads!) the way I imagine them was Darrel Sweet. His work has been often criticized for it’s cartoonish character, and stock medieval images, very much akin to John Cullen Murphy’s Prince Valiant. For example, this picture (http://www.torania.de/luthien/hobbit/sweet-woodelves.htm) shows his stock elves, that are always blond haired and wearing tights (though I prefer to call them woolen chausses smilies/wink.gif ). He often missed the mark, especially in his depictions of Legolas that don’t follow the book description at all. This is one of his more remarkable illustrations, and the one that has always stayed in my head, Eagle's Eyrie (http://www.torania.de/luthien/hobbit/sweet-eagle.htm). I love the way he presents Bilbo and how he dresses the dwarves, and I’ve always had a thing for the sword belts he puts on the heroes.

dragoneyes, I do believe that is the most original take I’ve ever heard on Tom Bombadil! I can kind of see that, now that you mention it. I go a strange direction with him too. I think of Santa Claus, maybe not the red suited variety, but more the English style. For some reason I’ve always attached Christmas to him and imagine his house to be decorated with evergreen boughs, holly and misteltoe, not to mention a bunch of wooden toys as well. However, I’ve never imagined Goldberry as Mrs. Claus. Nope, I prefer this Goldberry (http://www.aumania.it/fa/hildebrandt_t_g/031.jpg). One thing about the brothers Hildebrandt, they did know how to… err… draw a woman. smilies/biggrin.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

This is rapidly turning into one of my favourite threads. I hope that many more BD'ers put up examples of their favourite (and least favourite) artwork. I have seen many of these images before, but it is interesting to hear what you make of them, why you like them etc.

Lorien I thought was going to be brighter, it was very dark in the film.

Gorwingel, I agree with you. I deliberately left Lothlorien off my list. I understand that Jackson & co wanted to make it a dark place, so as not to lift the tension too much. Also it ties in with the attitude of Gimli, and also the Rohirrim, towards the place - that it was an dangerous place to be shunned. But, I thought it looked rather like the film set that it was, and not at all like the golden place that I had imagined.

As for the visulaisation of the races, again the films largely reflect how I had originally imagined them. I agree, Bill, that the Hobbits should have larger heads (sort of human size but with smaller bodies), but the fact that they do not doesn't really show up except when we see the nine members of the Fellowship in a "group shot" at Rivendell.

I was not overly keen on the film portrayal of the Elves. As I have said on another thread, I always imagined them to be more "other-worldly" and less human-looking, rather than slightly effeminate with long blonde hair (sorry again all you Legolas and Haldir fans smilies/evil.gif ). But then again, it would have been difficult to portray them much differently on film without more CGIs. And, anyway, I have never really seen any images of Elves which portrayed them the way I imagined them.

The rather evil-looking faces that Ted Nasmith gives to his Hobbits have always troubled me. I feel the same about Alan Lee's characters, who all seem to have rather hard features. But both do portray the landscapes and locations very well.

Bill, I like the colour and life that Darryl Sweet brings to his pictures, and the Eagle's Eyrie is great, although he does make Bilbo look a bit like a middle-aged accounts clerk, and isn't that Theoden in Thranduil's throne? smilies/smile.gif

One thought that occurs to me is that, while views vary greatly on the artwork generated by Tolkien's works, the visualisation in the films seems to connect by and large with most fans of his work. I wonder why this is.

Anyway, I really am looking forward to seeing some more great artwork on this thread.

[Diamond18]

Here is the definitive (in my mind) picture of Smaug. (http://www.timefold.com/brosimages/smaug.jpg) Those Hildebrandt brothers sure know how to draw a dragon, too. smilies/wink.gif

But the Balrog from the movie would send this Balrog (http://www.timefold.com/brosimages/balrog.jpg) home crying for its mother. smilies/evil.gif

This is the only Tom Bombadil (http://www.timefold.com/brosimages/bombadil.jpg) picture I've ever seen, and I think it fits with my mental image very well.

This, amazingly, is supposed to be the Uruk-hai. (http://www.timefold.com/brosimages/captured.jpg) No, no, no, no! They were definitely humanoid in my mind.

I like the way the Hidlebrandt Brothers portrayed the Hobbits except that in some pictures their faces are too childlike. This is because they actually used children as models. Also, Sam looks too fat and stupid (fatter than Sean Astin was in the movie, which I didn't think was all that fat). But I do prefer the overly childlike faces to the ones of Nasmith and Lee (Lee likes putting lank blond hair on hobbits. Huuuuh?). And Pippin always looks so gosh darn cute in the Hildebrandt pictures.

Anyway, my final two pics from the H Bros (for now smilies/biggrin.gif) is one of the Fellowship (http://www.timefold.com/brosimages/fellowship.jpg), and one of Legolas and Gimli (http://www.timefold.com/brosimages/1978.cover.jpg). In both cases, I think that Legolas should sue. (Note the cute fringe.) But Boromir and Aragorn look particularly noble.

[Bill Ferny]

Hey! Us middle-aged accounts clerk –types can have adventures too! smilies/smile.gif

Lothlórien should be golden, I believe, when the fellowship arrived. However, Pete already did that with Rivendell, so I can forgive him.

I came across these pictures by Audrey Corman. I’ve never heard of her before, but I think these are pretty good pictures (in contrast to the movies) of Middle-Earth weapons:

http://www.torania.de/luthien/fellow/fr323corman.jpg
Narsil

http://www.torania.de/luthien/hobbit/orcrist.jpg
Orcrist

http://www.torania.de/luthien/hobbit/h050corman.jpg
Remnants of old Robberies

The last one is really interesting. It covers a lot of ground as far as historical swords go. I think that's a scram in the foreground, and a flammard sticking up to the left.

Diamond18… keep those links to Hildebrandt coming. Most of them I’ve never seen, or don’t remember, and anyway its been a long time since I’ve looked at any of their stuff. They are SO shamelessly German, aren’t they? I like the pig faces, though. Oh, yeah! What do you mean Legolas suing? Did you see that hat on Gimli in the Fellowship? Now that is grounds for a lawsuit!

Edit: Diamond18, I forgot... can you find any Hildebrandt pictures of the Riders of Rohan?

[ January 19, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Here is a great site for pictures - The Tolkien Calendar Archive (http://www.herrderringe-net.de/kalender/kalender.php3). I love this Legolas and Gimli (http://www.herrderringe-net.de/kalender/24/legolasgimli.jpg) picture; a Galadriel (http://www.herrderringe-net.de/kalender/19/smith.jpg) I hadn't seen before, and like better than most other pictures I've seen of her, since she looks both wise and beautiful; and a very touching White Havens (http://www.herrderringe-net.de/kalender/19/havens.jpg) departure scene - but look through yourself, there are plenty of choices! Unfortunately, the names of the artists aren't given. (The site is in German, but you need no language knowledge to navigate.)

[Bill Ferny]

Estelyn, the Legolas and Gimli were done by John Howe… very stylistic, but not really my bag of beans as far as the costuming goes. I’m really surprised, though, that PJ didn’t go more in that direction. Who ever did the Galadriel was a frick’n genius! The details on her sandals, all the intricate knot work on the hems, her regal, tender, gentle face (great expression!), the costuming… great pic! I think I found something for my next desktop theme. Can anyone recognize the artist?

[doug*platypus]

My Valhalla of Tolkien Images is Rolozo Tolkien (http://fan.theonering.net/~rolozo/gallery/?mode=2), although it has been dumbed down a bit by too much fan art since the movies came out. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against fan art - quite the opposite - but when you have a half dozen pictures of a specific shot of what is obviously Cate Blanchett, the whole process is self-defeating.

For me, Middle-Earth (I'm a little sketchy on the Undrying Lands [sic - injoke]) is very vivid and colourful. My favourite illustrator is John Howe. I own the maginificent Alan Lee illustrated centenary version of LOTR, and his pictures have helped craft my vision, but I don't like the tone of most of them. Although realistic, many are too soft in tone and not bold enough in composition. They look like historical paintings of something that happened a long time ago, like you might have of Salisbury Cathedral by Constable. When I read Tolkien, the events are in the here and now, right up in my face. That's why I like pictures like John Howe's Balrog (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/howe/bridge.jpg), wings notwithstanding. I was seldom happier than when I heard the filmmakers had hired both John Howe and Alan Lee.

Any illustrator who pays strict attention to the books wins a lot of points with me. After all, as an illustrator that's their job. Alan Lee's infamous Bearded Elrond, and Brunette Galadriel have always given me cause for concern. The Hildebrants are marvellous painters, but I think they would be better suited to The Brothers Grimm. The Bombadil pic which Diamond provided to the link was a pleasant surprise, though. They somehow manage to make a bright blue jacket and yellow boots not look ridiculous! That's talent.

Ted Nasmith has a wonderful visual sense for Tolkien's world, and I'd love to chat with him about what he sees as he is reading. For myself, I am not a very visual reader, and usually let the words speak for themselves. I have to consciously summon up images, something I have been doing more since seeing the movies. Either way, Tolkien is still magnificent reading. Ted Nasmith's visions of Mordor (Across Gorgoroth (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/nasmith/gorgoroth.jpg)) are horrifying and help to build an appreciation for just what Frodo and Sam were going through.

The movies have done extremely well with locations and costumes. The Shire and hobbits in general surpassed my wildest expectations. They were as close to perfection as I believe possible. Ditto Nazgûl. Gandalf and Saruman were also standouts. I won't go into depth about the movies here, there's too much good and bad to go on about. But I haven't seen anyone yet who can properly show the beauty and splendour of High Elves, or the power of Andúril or of Gandalf. I think that my ideal LOTR movie would be a manga or something similar to Princess Mononoke, where the imagination need not be fettered by the complications of working in a real world.

[Bill Ferny]

Nurn: Breadbasket of Mordor

No trees or shrubs or fens, but only fields of wheat, oats, corn, and hay arranged in perfect squares, bordered by low fences of piled stones, sharp and jagged, that the thralls of Khand and Umbar have upturned over the years through their constant tilling of the dark earth, spread from the fold of a nameless estuary over the flat lands of Nurn. As though placed by a hand of exacting uniformity, every three fields are watched over by tall grey towers with pointed battlements and manned by watchmen with crossbows, torches and black bladed bill-hooks.

Shadowy bent figures silently work the rows, faceless men and women, covered in dirt and grime, skin browned and wrinkled by the sun and wind. They are chained together in lines, making no sound save for the rattling of their fetters. Watchful are their task masters, tall men of Umbar atop black palfreys, they snap their whips out of boredom and occasionally kick a slave for jest.

For every six fields, there are hovels made of stone and waddle, arranged in rows next to stinking hog pens and putrid ammonia thick chicken houses, blacksmiths’ forges billowing brackish black smog, and windmills that pump water from the irrigation ditches to the fields. Nearby, next to a line of festering charcoal clamps, men dig holes that will be filled by sunset, and most look at the fruit of their labor with longing, a more comfortable bed than they will have in life.

For every commune there’s a stone keep and barracks for Sauron’s better off slaves, the task masters and governors who vex themselves about the exacting demands of Barad-dûr, and fret for their necks if those demands should not be met. Rows of bins and granaries stretch behind, guarded by fences and more watchful soldiers, for the thralls of Nurn always hunger for more than is necessary for a good day’s work. Stretching down the dusty road from the granaries are orc teamsters who delight in tormenting the chattel assigned to loading their wagons, or unloading their shipment of fresh slaves.

Everywhere is the sound of orcish curses and laughter, the metallic pounding of the blacksmiths’ hammers, clanking of chains, and snapping of whips, but all one can really hear above and through the din of Nurn is the hollow echo of the sallow wind.

[Diamond18]

Nice description of Nurn, Bill. Quite vivid. I never want to go there... smilies/wink.gif

The are only a few pictures by the Hildebrandt brothers which depicted the Rohirrim. (http://www.herrderringe-net.de/kalender/3/ghan.jpg) I like the way they look, but Gahn-buri-Gahn is not quite what I picture. Tolkien did say he was squat, but that squat? Not in my mind, at least.

The other three pictures that include people of the Mark are Thédon, Éowyn and Wormtongue, (http://www.herrderringe-net.de/kalender/4/wormtongue.jpg) Éowyn and the Nazgûl, (http://7parabian.com/Images/dragon/HILDEBRANDT/hildebrandt1.JPG)Aragorn healing Éowyn, (http://www.herrderringe-net.de/kalender/3/healingeowyn.jpg) and Aragorn's Wedding. (http://www.herrderringe-net.de/kalender/3/wedding.jpg)

Then there are two location shots of Rohan: Meduseld (http://www.herrderringe-net.de/kalender/4/goldhall.jpg) and Helm's Deep. (http://www.herrderringe-net.de/kalender/3/helmsdeep.jpg)

I think that does it for the Hildebrandts and Rohan. In the wedding picture, does not Aragorn's crown look ridiculous? In their defense, though, I don't know how a crown with wings on it could look anything but. I am really curious to see what they do about Aragorn's crown in the movie.

[The Saucepan Man]

The Hildebrants are marvellous painters, but I think they would be better suited to The Brothers Grimm.

smilies/biggrin.gif Spot on, my egg-laying friend. What is this obsession that they have with non-human characters and big noses? I have to admit that I was put off their artwork by the covers of the Elfstones of Shannarah series, which I read many moons ago in my quest for Tolkien-like stories smilies/frown.gif .

Diamond, I have seen that picture of the esteemed chieftain of the Woses before, but it always makes me chuckle smilies/biggrin.gif . I do like Houses of Healing, though. And Eowyn and the Witch King - not how I imagined it, but striking nonetheless. I have to admit, their paintings are very atmospheric.

And, Bill F:

Hey! Us middle-aged accounts clerk –types can have adventures too!

Sorry - you're right - quite a good way of portraying an unlikely adventurer like Bilbo - it just wasn't how I imagined him. smilies/smile.gif

[Bill Ferny]

Arwen's sword? Sorry, this is a totally random one. I came across this while I was working today. I’ve been looking for this picture for about three months now. This is actually in regard to another thread, but I can’t find it. Seeing as how it sort of fits here, I’ll stick it here. Awhile back a short discussion broke out about the elven swords, especially Arwen’s, in the movies. It was mentioned that her sword was based on the katana, but I disagreed in favor of the Anglo/Saxon scram (the longer variety). However, that got me to thinking about a cheap decorative sword (“wall-hanger”) that I came across that claimed to be based on a picture from the Maciejowski Bible (circa. AD 1250, Paris). It looked strangely like the elven swords in the movies. If you look toward the center of the picture, you’ll see a knight in a brown surcoat literally chopping someone in half with this peculiar sword.

Warning: while this is from an illuminated medieval bible and the depiction isn't extremely realistic, the picture does contain graphic violence, definately PG-13. Image (http://www1.tip.nl/~t401243/mac/mac10vA.jpg)

[Diamond18]

*Everyone rushes to click on the link.*

[Bill Ferny]

I’ve had very little time to do much on-line other than real-life work these past few days, but I have managed to stumble across one of the most unique (and most pop-culture) visions of Middle-Earth I’ve seen in a while. Check this out! (http://www.ozbricks.net/bricktales/lotr/lotrmain.html)

[Diamond18]

Aw, that is so cute! I especially liked the movie poster. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Elfchick7]

I totally agree with Merri about the mocies bieng almost exactly the wat I pictured it with the exception of Gondor

[The Saucepan Man]

smilies/biggrin.gif Bill, I'd come across that site before, but it always makes me laugh, and they've added to it since. Thanks for the link.

[Bill Ferny]

Doug,

Thanks for that link. I browsed through the site last week and really enjoyed most of the pictures. You could spend days on that site. Though I’m not too keen on most of John Howe’s work, especially his portrayal of hobbits, but I recognized his Balrog from way back, and realized it is definitely one of those enduring images.

Alan Lee did drop the ball on that whole brunette Galadriel thing. I don’t know about beards on elves. Can an elf grow a beard? In the movies I noticed that Elrond had a five o’clock shadow. Of course, Legolas didn’t, but I doubt if Orlando Bloom could grow a beard anyway. smilies/biggrin.gif

I think we are all in consensus that the movies do an excellent job with scenery, architecture and landscape. However, I do think that they took some poetic license in regards to some costuming and props. Even though they were pretty enough, I didn’t really care for the weapons, except, maybe, sting. The armor was pretty much fantasy stock (especially elven armor) though I think WETA at least attempted to hit on some themes, as is evident with the costuming of the Riders of the Mark. Fight sequences were exciting, but still the same old Eorl Flynn fluff that Hollywood just can’t seem to give up. Simple rule of thumb for all you Hollywood producers out there: You fence with a foil, not a broad sword! I can’t really hold this against Peter Jackson, seeing as how JRRT’s description of the Battle at the Fords of Isen reads more like an account of a modern battle with tanks and infantry.

Diamond18, thanks for the links to the Brothers Hildebrandt. They are lacking a bit of luster when it comes to Rohan. They all look like chain mailled clones. That kind of surprises me. I didn’t like Meduseld at all. I figure that Tolkien was shooting more for something like a gold plated wooden Herot out of Beowulf, than a stone Romanesque Norman keep. Helm’s Deep is another matter, though. Really nice picture. I like that rendered landscape look they portray. As far as woses are concerned, I’ve seen much worse (David Day's A Tolkien Bestiary). That being said, Hildebrandt’s woses appear to be the unclothed version of dwarves. I have to agree that that is one of the most ridiculous crowns I’ve ever seen. Also in the same picture (Aragorn’s Wedding… that seems a little chauvinistic… its just as much Arwen’s Wedding as it is Aragorn’s) you would think that Legolas and Faramir (?) would get dressed up a bit, but there they are in their travelling clothes. And why are people standing around in helmets? Are they planning on throwing lead shot instead of rice?

All in all, though, I still like the Brothers Hildebrandt. Dwarves and hobbits have big noses! Their pictures have a cartoonish character, and this I think is why the Brothers Grimm come to mind so readily. However, as I’ve noted before, I don’t mind a bit of cartoonishness (which, by the way, isn’t even close to being a word in the English language).

I’ve been thinking lately about the Rangers of the North, and how they will probably be absent from the movies. I for one am very happy about this. I don't think I could stand to see any more carbon copies of Strider's costume! I especially disliked the whole slicker thing… I thought for sure that he was going to pull back one side of his coat and reveal a leather holster hung low, tied to his thigh, sporting a .44 Russian. Strider Wales, Outlaw? That costume is definitely not how I pictured Strider. Does anyone agree?

Speaking of Strider, here’s one of those “makes you go hmmmm….?” questions that’s been bugging me ever since seeing the FotR last year. I always assumed that Strider carried a shield. I haven’t had much time lately, but I did manage to browse through the FotR looking for references to Strider having or not having a shield. I couldn’t find anything. In fact, the only battle that Aragorn gets into in the first book is at Weathertop, and there he wields a burning brand in each hand (no sword nor much description for that matter!). In the second book, in the mines of Moria, no detail is given. My theory is this, a shield is a wonderfully practical device, and Aragorn seems to be a pretty practical guy. So, my assumption that he carried shield is acceptable.

[Diamond18]

Hmmm...I personally thought Aragorn's costums were perfect. I didn't have a set vision for his clothes and gear when reading the books, but the movie certainly didn't clash with my non-image.

All right, to explain that frighteningly obtuse statement, sometimes in books though I don't have a set picture in my own mind, I still have some thoughts about what they don't look like. A sort of "I'm not really sure what he looks like but it isn't that" attitude. But Aragorn's costume wasn't like that, for me. Somehow the whole "Ranger" thing in the book did remind me of a wandering western hero. But that's just me...

I also liked what he wore at the Council, and the picture of his new get-up in RotK looks quite nice.

[Bill Ferny]

Diamond18, I can respect that. I’m the exact same way about Gollum… I’m not sure what he actually looks like, but I do know that he doesn’t look like Ted Nasmith’s Gollum. I’ve never really came across a picture of Aragorn as Strider that sums up how I picture him. I think, though, that this picture (http://www.torania.com/fellow/fr234hildebrandt-pony.jpg) (from Greg and Tim, again) comes closer to the costume that I would put on Strider if I could draw… which I can’t. Now, I don’t care too much for the exaggerated boots or Narsil, and I would probably put baggy trousers on him instead of tights, and maybe a green, studded leather mantle on his shoulders.

[doug*platypus]

Oh, no, Bill - another Fat Sam! Et tu, Hildebrants?

Just as the fellowship leave Rivendell there is an illustrator's treasure trove of a description of their gear. It is said they went forward with little gear of war. Gimli's mail is mentioned, as is Frodo's, and also Boromir's shield. If Aragorn had sallied forth with one, doubtless that would have been mentioned. I believe that he would have been given one to use at Helm's Deep, for realism mainly, as well as a helm. Legolas and Gimli at least in my memory were kitted out at the Hornburg.

If anyone wants to make some more comments on the movie costumes, try here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001706)! Don't you love it when people shamelessly promote the threads they started?!

[Diamond18]

Bill! Wow! That is a great drawing of Aragorn (though it does looks like he's dancing smilies/wink.gif ).
(Edit: I was talking about Bill's drawing, now in the below post.)

In the Hildebrandt brothers one he looks too clean to me. I mean, there was all that talk about how suspcious and "foul" he looked, so I expected his clothes to be muddier.

Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard in front of him, and was smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved. His legs were strechted out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted him well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close around him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he watched the hobbits.

So, splatter some mud on that HB painting and you've got it made. smilies/wink.gif

Can't go without a favorite Pippin quote (while I've got the book open to this part):

But handsome is as handsome does, as we say in the Shire; and I daresay we shall all look much the same after lying for days in hedges and ditches.

[ February 02, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[Bill Ferny]

Doug, I found another John Howe balrog: Glorfindel and the Balrog (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/howe/balrog.jpg).

How I pictured Strider (my sorry excuse for drawing):

http://members.fortunecity.com/ferny/Striderpostriven0001.JPG

edit: re-posted picture due to an error on my website.

[ February 02, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[propagandalf]

(warning: return of the king spoilers)

Wow! Good thread. This is my first time to see other Middle-earth inspired images. Quite an eye-opener for one who is not a Tolkien scholar. I enjoyed reading other people's replies. Thanks. As for my own concept of middle-earth, well... I saw the movie first (FOTR), so I was basically robbed of the opportunity to imagine. But I'm happy with the images I got stuck with. And I'm grateful to the movie, it made me read the all the books. I was shockt when I read the first one. There was sooooooooo much more.

Tom Bombadil was one of the characters that totally captured my imagination. Fascinating, though there was something very sad about him... can't pinpoint what exactly. I wanted to know more about him (and Goldberry) and their magical house in the woods and their history. I envision their realm to be something like the paintings of John Baptiste Camille-Corot, beautifully green but sad (don't know why). Oh well, too bad PJ left them out. The ents are another thing. I totally fell in love with them when I encountered them (in the book). I was happy with PJ's visuals. But in my head, they were much taller and bigger and broader. Making them smaller though, allowed them to interact with the weeeee hobbits. So that's cool. I didn't picture Treebeard as Gimli for sure. And I was disappointed not to see Quickbeam. Hmm.. I could go on and on about the ents but I better not.

Gollum was not as I previously saw him (plenty of times) in my head. He was greener and smaller in my mind. When I first saw the movie-Gollum, I thought he looked too human. I was appalled when he tried to eat Sam, I thought PJ turned him into some sort of an orc or something but as the movie went on, I recognized him- the Gollum I fell in love with in the book smilies/biggrin.gif. PJ's depiction of Gollum is a tribute to the ‘book-Gollum' and to Tolkien himself, in my opinion. I could be wrong but even though Gollum is sort of a monster, I thought he was written lovingly (sorry for the corny word). And that's how PJ created the image (and characteristics) of Gollum. I don't know how I'm going to deal with his death when it comes in December.

Hmmm.. I better stop now before my post reaches Tolkienesque-proportions. Here are some photoshop paintings I made (fan art). They suck but what the hell.

My vague idea of "The Grey Havens"

http://www.pyxz.com/users/1044405836//1044405836-1044407526-0.jpg

And here's my vague idea of where the entwives (and entmaidens) have gone. (http://www.sphosting.com/okpixel/)

Thanks for letting me rant. Sorry if I went off-topic.

p.s.
I did not expect 'the battle at Helm's Deep' to be so grand, I can't imagine how PJ would depict 'The battle of the Pelennor Fields'. Omg. I can't wait.

[ February 04, 2003: Message edited by: propagandalf ]

[thunder_goddess]

HI
To me, Gollum looked exactly how I invisioned him. And also the hobbits, Shire and Moria. But I saw the movies before I read the book, so I can only do it out of places that were in The Hobbit. And also Sting! He looked great.

`````````````````````````````````````

[Bill Ferny]

propagandalf, nice fan-art. The Grey Havens reminds me of Arda creation illustrations, though, but I think you portray with the swirling mists the passage from Middle-Earth to the separated realm of the Undying Lands very well. Keep up the creativity! I’m hoping to see more fan-art on this thread smilies/smile.gif.

As far as the movie Gollum goes, I was most impressed with the voice acting. Every sense I first read the books I’ve always tried to emulate Gollum’s voice the way I imagined it, but I was never satisfied with my feeble attempts. I really liked Gollum’s voice in the animated movie The Hobbit, but I think PJ and the actor (don’t know his name), did an absolutely wonderful job!

Though PJ’s ents brings to mind a Pandora’s Box of opinions that do not belong on this thread, I will give him this much… visually his ents are the best ent illustrations I have ever seen from any Tolkien artist.

thunder-goddess, sting is the only weapon in the movie with which I was satisfied. The look of sting captured something of its ancient origins, mainly due to its blade design being so different from other weapons seen on other characters. It resembled, from a more historical bent, a Roman gladius circa. Julius Ceasar. For example, compare the movie sting to these Roman blades (complements the skilled hands at Albion (http://albionarmorers.com/) weapons works):

http://albionarmorers.com/images/swords/albion/smainz.jpg

http://albionarmorers.com/images/swords/albion/smmainz.jpg

It also is remensent of Celtic leaf shaped blade designs. Thursting an ancient sword design into the movie alongside more traditional medieval looking weapons is a good example of WETA’s genius.

[propagandalf]

Thanks Bill Ferny. I have to look up ‘Arda creation illustrations’ as I have no idea what that is smilies/biggrin.gif. *stupid newbie*

I think the name of the guy who played ‘Gollum’ is Andy Zierkis (sp). I agree with you about the voice, that was the first thing that struck me about Gollum. I thought it was digitally altered, initially. But then, I saw this documentary about LOTR- it was really him. Amazing! That dude can really talk like that! Btw, I also catch myself trying to imitate that voice from time to time. What is it about Gollum? heheee.

Regarding the swords- They could’ve made Theoden’s sword a little grander in my opinion. Sting was awesome. And umm.. I am patiently awaiting the appearance of Anduril smilies/mad.gif.

[Bill Ferny]

Here (http://www.torania.de/luthien/silmaril/martin-creation.htm) you go, propagandalf.

[Bill Ferny]

After re-thinking the chapter in UT, Battle at the Fords of Isen, I was struck by Tolkien’s description of the battle as being rather modern, like he was describing a typical WWI battle with swords, spears and horses, instead of rifles, artillery and machine guns.

Granted, Tolkien was no scholar of medieval warfare, but I find it hard to believe that, if the Fords of Isen was such an important land mark, it wouldn’t be defended by some sort of fortification. There seems to be a lack of typical medieval style fortifications in general. Bree is surrounded by a wall and the shire is bordered by a hedge, the cities of Gondor are walled, but considering the necessities of medieval like weapons and tactics, one would assume that there would be many more fortifications throughout Middle Earth than what is described in the books.

Just a thought.

Regardless, this illustration (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/NORcastles2.jpg) of a historical motte-and-bailey castle would fit well into the landscape of Rohan.

[Durion the Dark]

Great Idea for a post. The visions in ones head for a fantasy world are sometimes hard to comunicate with others. "invision wooded thickets with streams running their length, Shadow cast skies, beauty unmatched. well worn roads with hundreds of years of travel on them. Then suddenly the clouds break revelinga rather large sun glowing brightly down..." Kind of what i think is stated hear. Rate Me, if you got the time

[nPiLL]

There are many ways that i envision Middle Earth. Before i had seen the movies i envisioned it to be a awesome place with elves, humans, hobbits, orcs roaming around. Also, the architecture would have a medieval influence to it. After i saw the movie i guess i was pretty accurate lol.

[The Saucepan Man]

There seems to be a lack of typical medieval style fortifications in general.

Not sure that I altogether agree with you on this one, Bill. There seem to me to be fortifications where they are needed. So, Minas Tirith is fortified (and thus able to resist for some time attack by Sauron's forces). And I would imagine the other great cities of Gondor, such as Dol Amroth and (in it heyday) Osgiliath, to be similarly fortified.

The people of Rohan are slightly different. Being horse-lords, they are more nomadic in their origins and therefore would have less historic knowledge of fortification-building. And so they rely on Helm's Deep, originally built by Gondor and only strengthened by the people of Rohan. And there they go in times of trouble. They also have the option of withdrawing to Dunharrow, but that is more of a naturally occuring defensive position.

Hobbits and Bree-landers did not need great fortifications because they were rarely disturbed, and certainly not by great armies. Dwarves relied on the defensive adavantage bestowed by having their communities under mountains. Khazad-Dum and Erebor were fortified communities in a way, although (perhaps understandably) not built to withstand attack from the likes of Smaug and the Balrog. And as for Elves, well they seem to have relied largely on Elvish magic to protect their communities (Rivendell, Lothlorien).

So, having thought this through, it does seem that most of the "medeival-style" fortifications in 3rd Age ME were built by the Gondorians. Possibly because they were the only ones with the knowledge and the need to do so.

[Bill Ferny]

I see what you are saying about the elves and dwarves, and its perfectly understandable. Though in the case of Rohan, I somewhat disagree. The mounted soldier was the staple of medieval warfare, and as it panned out, the medieval fortification became a necessary expedient of the mounted soldier. The people of Rohan, I’ve been told, were modeled on the Vikings, and as it turns out the Vikings were both accomplished horsemen and builders as well as mariners.

However, after some more thought, I think my original speculation missed the mark anyway. I’ve spent most of my time researching and studying the post-Norman medieval world, not so much the pre-Norman. So I take things like castle building for granted. Though the establishment of fortifications on the continent was wide spread from the Carlovingian period onward mainly due to Viking raiding, it was for the most part absent in Anglo-Saxon England. Before 1066 there were about six timber and earthwork fortifications, one in Dover, one at Arundel in Sussex, three in Hereford, and one in Essex. Even then, only the fortification at Dover was not engineered by Normans.

Of course, the Romans habitually built castri, temporary fortifications of ditches and earth ramparts, and sometimes converted them into more permanent establishments with the addition of stonework. King Harold Godwinson utilized one such ancient Roman site when he built the fortification at Dover. However, such fortifications had little defensive capability without a large professional garrison, and as such were very different from the latter medieval fortifications with which we are familiar, and the type of fortification from the continent with which the Normans were familiar. By 1066, the majority of the Roman castri were either ruins or had long been tilled over. This, of course, had disastrous results for the Anglo-Saxons because their fate hinged on a single engagement with the Normans at Hastings. They lost, had no fortifications to fall back upon, and William was simply able to march through England in a relatively brief amount of time subjecting the better part of the island to Norman rule. William brought with him from the continent the wisdom of the defensive fortification, and thus solidified his rule by placing his followers behind the safety of these forts from which they could exercise control over the surrounding countryside. The number of fortifications in England climbed from six in 1066 to over five hundred by the turn of the century.

I’m sure that Tolkien was well aware of Norman castle building in England, from the remnants of the old motte-and-bailey castles to the massive Edwardian fortresses of the late thirteenth century and everything in between. In only 16 days by bicycle I was able to visit 9 castle sites in Wales (and this included many wasted hours in pubs and bed and breakfasts to boot). Given Tolkien’s attitude about the Normans and the events of 1066 and following, I’m sure he had a different perspective of these Norman castles than I have. He probably saw in them the subjugation of the Anglo-Saxon people. No doubt if he was indeed attempting to resurrect the ancient mythology of his island, the distinctive Norman love affair with castle building would be absent.

[Bill Ferny]

Definitely not how I envisioned a man of Gondor:

http://www.ninecompanions.net/gallery_pics/rotkpics/rotk_gondoriansoldier_1.JPG

What is that guy, a soldier or a jester? I do know this, he’s probably the slowest rider in the whole army… the wind resistance really sets him back. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Lyra Greenleaf]

i have to say, i think that the film fitted my mental images far better than practically all of the pictures from this thread. that, at least, is one thing i reckon PJ got right. (but I am NOT going to start on about faramir, cos it's totally unrelated...)
rohan surprised me, it seemed far more rural and backward in a good way than i'd imagined, but after i saw it that version seemed more reasonable tham mine really!
on the other hand, the prancing pony was NOTHING like how it should be. NOTHING at all! it was supposed to be nice- but there you go. they didnt want to stop and start the tension. fine. cater for people with
2-second attention spans, i'll just watch pippin ("It comes in pints?")

[Rumil]

Oooh, interesting thread...

First, to indulge in some ritual apple chucking smilies/wink.gif , nice thoughts on castles, swords etc from Bill. However, I do have the odd point....

Isn't the medieval sword in your illustration a panzertetcher, as used by German knights in the Baltic Crusades? I believe it was prized for its armour penetration qualities. (I still think the elven panzertetcher/katana things 'feel' wrong, after all Glamdring, Narsil and Sting are supposed to be elven blades, and I don't like their banded armour either, though I guess if PJ put everyone in chainmail it might be confusing.)

On fortifications, I think you may be underestimating the number of 'Anglo-Saxon' strongholds. I seem to remember that one of the English kings (beginning, I think, with E or A smilies/wink.gif ), perhaps Athelstan?? had a program of building 'forts' around England. Certainly there was one at Warwick, where the foundations were later used to build the Medieval castle (That JRRT thought of as Kor-Tirion).

On the battle of the fords of Isen, there were fortifications guarding the fords, but they had been allowed to decay over the years. I'd guess they now resembled simple earthworks. Presumably Rohan had decided that with Saruman at Isengard, the forts weren't worth the upkeep, then when Saruman turned nasty Wormtongue persuaded Theoden not to bother renovating them. I'm interested to hear why you think this battle resembles WWI Bill? For me, the closest parallel is with colonial battles such as Ulundi, where at the end of the conflict the Rohirrim form square, then break out. I've also noticed that this battle was an uncharacteristic defeat for the cavalry of Rohan which performed very poorly, perhaps due to being charged before they had deployed from column of march.

Anyway, as for images from the films, the Shire was generally good but looked as though it needed a few hundred years to 'bed in' to look authentically ancient. As many have said, Rivendell and Lothlorien were too 'dark' or perhaps 'grey', perfect for after LoTR, but I'd have thought them far lighter, livelier places at this time. Edoras was so downmarket, I think someone took Saruman's insult as the truth!

[Bill Ferny]

Rumil, I’m not sure about the panzertetcher, though I think I know what your talking about. I’ll have to do some quick research. The two blades at the top of this page were definitely modeled on the Roman gladius found at the Mainz dig.

I still think the elven panzertetcher/katana things 'feel' wrong, after all Glamdring, Narsil and Sting are supposed to be elven blades…

Excellent point! smilies/smile.gif

I think you mean King Alfred the Great (871-899) who was a military genus and used temporary earthwork fortifications to great effect. However, various other Anglo-Saxon kings utilized temporary earthwork fortifications that resembled similar constructs in Scandinavia. These defensive positions required, like the Roman castri, a large cadre of trained soldiers to defend, and such fortifications could not hold long against protracted sieges. None of these earthwork fortifications were intended as long lasting political and military centers, but were set in place and moved according to need. By 1066 most of the fortifications built and used from the sixth to tenth centuries were useless and forgotten. The Anglo-Saxons still depended on open engagement.

The Battle of Ulundi is a bit outside of my area of historical expertise, but you could very well be right. What was lacking from the battle as described in the UT was the feeling of the medieval, when both sides face off across a field, the mounted soldiers charge, the infantry charges. Medieval battles were usually decided in the course of a few hours, not days. The tactics used by both sides at the Fords of Isen resembled a more modern engagement, like the Battle of Ulundi of the late 19th century or those of WWI in the early 20th. Mention of WWI was simply a throw-away reference in light of Tolkien being a veteran of WWI.

Edoras was so downmarket…

I have to disagree with you on that one. I thought Edoras was one of the more authentic looking locales in the movie.

Here’s my newest “movie-pet-peeve”:

http://www.ninecompanions.net/gallery_pics/rotkpics/rotk_aragorn_1.jpg

Aragorn or Oliver Cromwell?

[Lathriel]

I liked the way PJ made middle earth except for two things. I had imagined the orcs differently. I imagined them more as very hairy creatures. I didn't imagine their faces that pointy,I imagined them more blunted so that they quickly got a dumb expression,dull eyes with a big forehead.
And I imagined Lothlorien as a brighter place, and maybe a little happier too. It is very gloomy in the FOTR movie.

[The Saucepan Man]

Actually, Bill, I quite like that picture of Aragorn. The detail on the horse's armour is incredible- for example, the tree on its "breastplate" (or whatever that piece of horse armour is called).

But you are quite right about the rather ostentatious Gondorian helmet - neither practical nor particularly aesthetically pleasing. I have a horrible feeling that it might be Prince Imrahil - isn't he supposed to have some connection with swans or something? smilies/eek.gif

[Bill Ferny]

Rumil, I’m confused in regards to the panzertetcher. At first I thought you were referring to sting-like blades, but after researching, though I couldn’t find mention of panzertetcher in the sources I have laying around the house, I think you might be referring to the sword illustrated in the Maciejowski Bible. I was able to find a number of German falchions that at best vaguely resemble the one illustrated in the Maciejowski Bible and the elven blades in the LotR movies (I couldn’t find any two-handed examples). If you could provide a physical description or picture of the panzertetcher, it would be greatly appreciated.

Lathriel, I know what you mean about the goblins/orcs. I guess I’ve been conditioned by the brothers Hildebrant over the years, though. However, I still liked WETA’s meanies. So far PJ’s conception of goblins/orcs is the most horrific I’ve seen, and as far as I’m concerned that’s a good thing.

Oh, come on, PanMan, you have to admit, like the costuming or not, that he does look a little like a live action Oliver Cromwell statue.

[Bill Ferny]

I posted this picture in the "Weapon of Choice" thread. Dress it up a bit and it would work great for a Gil-Galad’s spear, Aeglos:

http://www.deepeeka.com/swords/images/spears/ROman_Spear.jpg

This a rather short spear (about 4 1/2 to 5 feet in length) used by the Romans for thrusting in tight formations. It’s the only historical spear I can find that was designed to be re-usable; all other spear types were disposable, and often only one-use, weapons.

[Bill Ferny]

This picture (http://www.breeunderbreehill.com/3cdf4270.jpg) of Bilbo Baggins, as drawn by Alkanoonion’s sister, was posted by Alkanoonion on another thread. I thought it was great. Is there any other anime adaptations of Middle Earth out there?

[Rumil]

Sorry for being not entirely crystal, Bill. It was the Maciejowski Bible picture sword I was referring to as a panzertetcher. Afraid I can't quite remember where I remember this from, if you take my meaning. I do think I read about this sword in reference to the picture you showed. I'll have to rack my brain and get back to you (though I do think you get +1 vs armour in certain wargames rules for using one though smilies/wink.gif ).

Ah, it was Big Alf who made those forts, makes sense, and I do take your point that they weren't very defensible. I suppose you could think of them as the bailey of a motte and bailey castle, which were originally generally earth and timber until the later Normans and Plantagenets got round to rebuilding them in stone.

On the battle topic, I think this goes into the subject of the 'ritual' of ancient battles. Often the opposing forces would meet in a nice flat field to do battle against one another, sometimes it was even pre-arranged and in a 'battlefield' where previous battles had taken place (for example the Norse in Ireland). Similar things used to go on in the Pacific Islands last century apparently. However, sometimes armies didn't 'play the game'. For example, the Welsh didn't have the money to spend on armour and warhorses, so ambushed the Saxons and Normans whenever they could rather than fight a 'pitched battle'. I'd guess Saruman preferred to take any advantage rather than indulge in the stylised tactics of our earlty medieval period.

Obviously my personal opinion on Edoras, but I'd always imagined it very clean, (in a sort of Scandinavian way if you know what I mean) well ordered and architecturally more impressive. I'd agree that the film portrayal was far closer in terms of historical veracity. Didn't someone say that a medieval king could be distinguished from his subjects because he was the only one not covered in muck? (I Bowdlerise of course smilies/wink.gif )

Aragorn = Oliver Cromwell, very worrying, does he develop warts? I also had a chuckle at the silly hat, though its amazing what people did wear down the ages, look at the Landschnects!

Ah-Ha, fouind my Panzerstecher reference, but obviously I was a talking rubbish, because its a stabbing sword rather than a cutting one - doh!

The Estoc

A form of long, rigid, pointed, triangular or square bladed and virtually edgeless sword designed for thrusting into plate-armor was the estoc. Called a stocco in Italian, estoque in Spanish, a tuck in English, Panzerstecher or Dreiecker in German, and a kanzer in Eastern Europe. They were used with two hands and similar to great-swords (but were unrelated to later rapiers). They were used in two hands with the second hand often gripping the blade. Some were sharpened only near the point and others might have one or two large round hand guards. Rapiers are sometimes mistakenly referred to as tucks, and there is evidence that during the Renaissance some rapiers may have been referred to as such by the English. In French "estoc" itself means to thrust.

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[Bill Ferny]

In response to the above picture of Aragorn, I set myself to drawing how I think he would look as he arrived at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields:

http://members.fortunecity.com/ferny/arapic.JPG

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

That is pretty much what I thought he would look like myself, before the movies, and I think that that is a really good drawing.

~Menelien

[Diamond18]

Hmmm... Aragorn the Cauliflower King? Eeep, that sounds mean. I'm sorry, Bill, it popped into my evil little mind and I can't think of anything else... You may throw a barrel of apples at me if you like (or cauliflower...) but the White Tree on Aragorn's helmet and tunic looks a bit more like the White Vegetable.

smilies/tongue.gif

*Cough* Anyway, I suppose Aragorn might look a little bit like Oliver Cromwell. But everything can be compared to something else, if you look hard enough, so I don't mind. (My woeful lack of knowledege about Oliver Cromwell's existence just shines through right now—I had to use Google to see what the heck you were talking about)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/250000/images/_251679_crmask.jpg
http://www.jri.org.uk/ray/img/cromwell.jpg

[ May 03, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[Luinalatawen]

http://www.kojiroabe.com/rotk/frodoandsaminmordor.jpg

This is EXACTLY how I pictured Mordor, and this is what it'll look like in RotK. Big expanse of dry, barren land with rocks and mountains here and there, with the orc army marching through... But look at Sam & Frodo... they don't look like Sam and Frodo- scale doubles, I presume. Maybe.

More RotK pictures here:
http://www.kojiroabe.com/rotk/rotk01.html

[ May 03, 2003: Message edited by: Luinalatawen ]

[Bill Ferny]

LOL, Diamond. smilies/biggrin.gif You have a point (and I’m not talking about your head smilies/wink.gif). As Mark Twain once said: "Cauliflower is nothing but a cabbage with a college education." Whatever, Sam.

[ May 03, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Bill Ferny]

Luinalatawen, at first glance I thought that was a movie still, but after looking at it a bit closer, it appears to be airbrush, which leads me to believe that this picture could very well be concept art. Great link!

Rumil, good point about the ritual nature of medieval battles. From the late 12th century onward it was more beneficial to capture a knight and his chattels than kill him out right, as he could be ransomed for a hefty profit (and his horse, armor and weapons wouldn’t have to be scrubbed free of blood and grey matter). The conduct of a typical siege was almost an entirely scripted affair, each major player in the siege acting out customary roles that bordered on the ceremonial. I doubt that the forces of evil would be so courteous, or that a horde bent on genocide would worry about collecting revenue from those they wished to exterminate.

However, there are examples of less ritualistic battles during the medieval period that play out very differently. After all, not every battle pitted European “gentlemen” against each other.

I was thinking more along the lines of how the Battle of Hastings panned out, a longer than usual affair that can serve in contrast.

http://www.bayeuxtapestry.org.uk/Images/Bayeux/bayeux31.jpg
(Calvary is crowned king at the Battle of Hastings, from the Bayeux Tapestry)

According to Joseph Dahmus, whose depiction of that battle in Seven Decisive Battles of the Middle Ages is one of the better researched ones out there:

William started his vanguard up the slope about nine in the morning. Once his light-armed foot soldiers had reached a point in their march up the hill where they felt their arrows might be effective, they let fly. Against an enemy largely concealed behind shields and other protective devices, these arrows did little damage, and little more was worked on by the pikemen and spearmen with their missiles. By this time the English had begun to retaliate with everything they could throw or shoot - axes, javelins, stones tied to sticks, arrows - and they did this with such abandon that the Bretons to William’s left broke in disorder and turned back down the hill. The panic of the Bretons prompted some of the English to hurry down the hill after them in the hope of decimating them in their confused flight. William sensed the critical nature of the situation and quickly moved in his horsemen to block the English in their pursuit, a maneuver which not only saved the Bretons from disaster but also caught a good number of English in a trap from which none escaped. A number of William’s knights who had penetrated the Anglo-Saxon formation, including the famed barb Taillefer, were slain.

This incident is one of the few details about the battle which the chroniclers describe. Although the fighting went for eight or nine hours, that is, until dusk, and at a furious pace, the reader is left to guess what precisely transpired. It appears probable that the combat assumed the character of a melee - a general, confused, hand-to-hand struggle between groups and individuals – the greater part of the battle taking place on the slope in front of the shield wall through which the Saxon warriors pushed to close with the enemy below. We are told that both Harold’s brothers fell early in the battle. William was himself so hotly engaged that he had three horses killed under him. At one point in the fighting the cry went up that the duke had been slain, a development which would have brought a quick end to Norman resistance, for the tapestry shows Williams raising his helmet and shouting to his men that he was still very much alive.

The French chroniclers, possibly in an effort to explain Norman retreats or even their eventual victory, say that on several occasions – three according to William of Poitiers - William employed the tactic of a feigned retreat. He then counterattacked with deadly effect when the English mistook the retreat for a defeat and advanced too far ahead of their defenses. Some analysts disagree. So experienced a warrior as Harold, they maintain, would not thrice have been duped by the same stratagem, especially since the English from their shield wall enjoyed a good view of the battlefield. The analysts also doubt the ability of William to conduct such a difficult maneuver. Others accept William of Poitiers’ words at face value and insist that the Norman army was so well disciplined that I could have managed a feigned retreat. The slow, cautious advance of the Saxons in front of their protective shield wall would have provided William and his knights sufficient time to regroup their “retreating” foot soldiers for an advance.

As the battle wore on without a decisive turn and dusk began to settle, William grew increasingly apprehensive. Unless he could win the battle before night fell, the following morning would find his tired army facing fresh Englishmen who would be coming up during the night. So, it is said, he gave the order for one last general assault and this succeeded. The shield wall crumbled and , worse, Harold was slain. Even yet all the fighting was not over. As the English fell back and scattered into the darkening forest, some housecarls turned on their Norman pursuers and slew a good number of William’s bravest men before he hurried up and drove off the last of them. In the end, as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle aptly puts it, “the French had possession of the place of slaughter” (105-107).

(Interactive map (http://members.tripod.com/~Battle_of_Hastings/Hastings_Map/Hastings_Map.htm).)


http://www.regia.org/images/Jorvik9908.jpg
(Is that a lady in that shield wall? Actually, that may have happened.)

Another example, the Battle of Hattin (4th of July, 1187), pitted the Latin King of Jerusalem, Guy de Lusignan, against the greatest Muslim of history, Saladin. Saladin employed his light calvary to their greatest effect by harassing the Latin army, much larger than his own, with hit and run tactics as the Latin column advanced. His horse, at this point, never engaging outright, but he used his mounted archers to increase the suffering of the Latins already sweltering in the desert heat. By the time King Guy reaches the Horns of Hattin, his army is mad with thirst. The morning of the battle, Guy’s foot soldiers are so desperate for want of drink, and not thinking straight due to Saladin providing them with a sleepless night, they broke ranks and made a mad dash for the Sea of Galilee, temptingly sparkling in the first rays of morning. Saladin’s calvary slaughters them with ease. Raymond of Tripoli attempts to save the situation (?) by charging into Saladin’s horse, but he and his men shot straight through them, and for some reason (which is hotly contested) he simply left the battlefield and returned to Tripoli. What follows is typical of most medieval calvary battles: the Christians and Muslims make charge after charge at each other, each charge followed by a brief mounted melee, then they re-organize to do it all over again with dismounted knights on both sides hurriedly procuring themselves a new mount. In the end, due to exhaustion (and probably, I’m convinced, a bit of treachery on the part of Raymond of Tripoli), the Latins lost, all their nobles captured (except, of course, for Raymond), most sold into slavery, and every Templar and Hospitaller beheaded, though they had started the engagement with superior numbers. Neither Saladin nor Guy took a defensive posture. In Guy’s case, most of his infantry was annihilated in the morning, and Saladin didn’t employ foot soldiers during this engagement. (For the best descriptions of this battle see: The Life of Saladin by Beha Ed-Din, De Expugatione Terrae Sanctae per Saladinum, translated by James Brundage in The Crusades: A Documentary History, edited by Joseph Stevenson.)

http://crusades.boisestate.edu/pics/Crusades%20Manuscripts/Hattin.jpg
(Battle at the Horns of Hattin from a 15th century painting; there was no plate armor at the real battle.)

Compare these to the battles at the Fords of Isen as described by Tolkien. In the first engagement, Théodred encounters the vanguard and scatters it, but when he moves on to attack the main host he finds them in a defensive posture. Obviously, Théodred throws his forces against the main body, but the forces of Saruman threaten to encircle his force from the west. Théodred wisely uses the advantage of his mounted troops and effects a retreat. Then he does something utterly irrational, at least for someone with the instincts of a horseman. He attempts to encamp his forces at the Fords without the benefit of a walled fortification (I did notice that there were apparently earthwork forts, raised areas of land without walls, at the Fords), and, what’s more, he divides his forces on either side of the river. Is it any wonder that “disaster came”?

http://www.theargonath.cc/pictures/misctwotowers/misctwotowers31.jpg
(Too kewl to looz.)

Now, off their horses, divided, and quickly being surrounded by an enemy that vastly outnumbers them, the Dunlending horsemen and the orcish wolfriders fell on the picketed horses, killing and scattering them. Now the Rohirrim don’t even have their horses anymore, and in a blink of the eye, all the Rohirrim on the east bank are swept away. In essence, Théodred divided and conquered himself, and paid for it at the edge of an orc-man’s axe.

Elfhelm then arrives in time to rescue Théodred's corpse and the remnants of his force. However, in the re-organization, Grimbold and Elfhelm make the very same mistake, Grimbold taking up position on western end, Elfhelm on the east. “All went ill, as most likely I would have done in any case.” Aye, but not for the reason Tolkien provides: “Saruman’s strength was too great.” True, Saruman’s forces were great, but an enemy that leaves itself piecemeal, and negates its only real advantage, would be defeated by a much smaller force regardless. We see Elfhelm, in charge of horse, taking “up his position” and acting “as a screen”, basically sitting still, doing something that any one with horse sense wouldn’t do. Of course, such tactics would be natural for a modern army that would be able to sit in ambush and maneuver separate units, but not for a medieval army without land lines, radios or binoculars. How exactly Elfhelm was to “descry” the east side of the river, or keep track of the activities on the west side is beyond me. With relative ease, the wolfriders drive between Elfhelm and Grimbold, and surround Elfhelm’s horsemen, who are sitting still, of course. The result: both Elfhelm and Grimbold are scattered, to be policed up by Gandalf a day latter.

The difference between the historical engagements and what is described by Tolkien is significant. The Saxons are the ones in the defensive posture, and William negotiates his mounted soldiers and infantry for effect. Both sides do not, nor can they due to the typical chaos of the medieval battle, separate their forces. Tolkien places the Rohirrim in a defensive posture, taking from them their primary advantage of maneuverability, and divides their forces. Saladin uses his maneuverability to harass the Latin army, until that army is driven insane by the horrendous conditions that Saladin manipulates. Maneuverability is the key for the mounted soldier, and if the battle goes sour, the best course of action is to turn and flee. (Thus the importance of the walled fortification that provides a place which to flee.) Even though the Rohirrim were greatly outnumbered, their first instinct as horsemen would not have been to place themselves in a defensive posture, but to use their maneuverability to greatest effect. For example, just prior to the first Crusade, during what is usually called the Pauper Crusade, even though the hodge-podge army of Christians vastly outnumbered the Turks, the Turks simply harried the Christian army into oblivion.

Another interesting battle from history demonstrates the utter disaster that results from a mounted army attempting to stand still without the benefit of a walled fortification. As chronicled by Jean De Joinville, King Saint Louis IX and his army, after winning at the Battle of Mansourah (AD 1250, I think), fell ill from drinking water out of a Nile tributary that was polluted by the corpuses of those who had fallen during said battle. Suffering terribly from scurvy and dysentery, and disadvantaged due to their encampment along a tributary that blocked any means of escape, the Sultan’s army was able to surround the enfeebled horse soldiers who attempted to defend themselves with hastily prepared wooden palisades from their gutted galleys. However, the Saracens used Greek fire to do away with the defenses, and roundly defeated the French, capturing the majority of the sickened army, including the Good King Louis. The whole episode was a tribute to the old adage: “Haste makes waste.” The Crusaders were hoping for a quick victory by driving south and capturing Cairo, but in their haste they neglected to consolidate their gains by taking the time to build adequate fortifications. In addition, they over extended themselves in an unfamiliar territory of confusing mazelike tributaries. The Saracens simply used their knowledge of the Nile tributaries to surround Louis’ army that had been brought to a standstill by futile efforts to cross the tributary and the crippling affects of disease. (Life of Saint Louis, trans. Margaret Shaw.) No calvary man can win by standing still.

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf33/otm33ra.gif
(What French knights would have looked like during the time of King Saint Louis IX, from the Maciejowski Bible)

All in all, I’m not too impressed with Tolkien’s depiction of battle. I think his story would have been better if he had beefed up on some military history.

In regards to Edoras… I guess I like my medieval fantasy down and dirty.

http://www.quintessentialwebsites.com/lordoftherings/movieshots/edoras10.jpg

I bet I could build one of those for the wife and kids (and for the cow and goat too). I wonder if the privy is inside or outside?

[ May 05, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Holbytlass]

Whew! All I can say is "ignorance is bliss". All in all, I am very pleased in PJ's depictions of places except Edoras. Sure it fits as far as what Tolkien described in the book and yes the villages must have been far between but in the movie it seemed as if Theoden was king over a couple of households. I think PJ should have put in (by computer or something) a couple more villages in the landscape surrounding Edoras. Oh well, we can't have everything.
Good thread.

[Rumil]

Whew Bill, great post,

I'll have to go back to UT to give you a proper response, but overall I agree with you that the Rohirrim were shockingly tactically inept at these battles. Perhaps Wormtongue's poisoned words had convinced them that they had no chance and the only course left was to dismount for a 'last stand' and sell their lives as dearly as possible. Eomer considers this course at the Pelennor fields and late Medieval knights (eg Wars of the Roses) usually fought on foot. However I'd agree that in this situation it was disastrous and added to the splitting of their forces, doomed the Rohirrim.

I like the Bayeux tapestry pic, that's how I imagine the Rohirrim (and by extension Aragorn, since he wore their armour). Though I'd think they would have used the 'couched' lance, which was still not standard practice in 1066.

Have fun building your hovel Bill, but I doubt the family will be too impressed if they have to share with the goats!

smilies/wink.gif

[Bill Ferny]

Rumil, they have to share a shanty with me, anyway… a goat here and there isn’t going to make much of a difference… at least they smell better and are much better at mowing the grass.

Speaking of the wife… She pointed out to me that I missed one pretty important factor in the whole Fords of Isen thing. She said, rightly, that the Fords were highly symbolic to Rohirrim, and they believed that they needed to defend them at all costs. She has a point, but I still think Tolkien makes Théodred into an idiot.

Oh, she has another good point: KISS (Keep it short, stupid). Apparently she thought the above post was a bit long winded. But, hey! I didn’t have anything better to do over the weekend.

I think PJ should have put in (by computer or something) a couple more villages in the landscape surrounding Edoras.

An excellent observation, Holbytlass. That would have definitely added some verisimilitude.

Edit: Welcome to the Downs, Holbytlass. Glad to have you along! smilies/smile.gif

[ May 06, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Rumil]

Just to respond a little bit more to your big post, Bill, although its a minor point, that's what we're here for, right smilies/wink.gif

My impression was that the rout of Theodred's cavalry was caused by them being caught in the flank (by Saruman's cavalry, wolfriders and uruks) just as they were exiting from the ford, being still mounted, but probably in a march column (ie 2 or 4 abreast). This would be a disastrous formation for any unit to be caught in. The horseholders mentioned were, I think, attached to the 3 companies of horse left back at the fords before Theodred's advance. Obviously they weren't doing a good recon job as the Eastern forces of Saruman achieved devastating surprise.

I agree with Mrs. Bill that the fords had a signficance for the Rohirrim which was greater than their real value. In the second battle Elfhelm almost got it right, planning to hold a ridge north of the fords on the eastern side, whereas Grimbold was more determined not to 'abandon his post'. What I reckon they should have done was concentrate east of the ford and immediately south of the road, so that they could hold a sensible position against Saruman's eastern force, while denying use of the ford to the Western force; any attack across the ford could then be repulsed in the same manner as the wolfriders scattered Theo's cavalry. (I'm sure this is fairly confusing, you'll need UT and a map to get it!).

On the battle point, with a re-read I see what you mean about the maneuverability of individual units. As I understand it many medieval deployments consisted simply of a left, right and main battle (perhaps with a vanguard or rearguard on occasion). The individual maneuverability seems more remeniscent of horse and musket era battles where each batallion or regiment had its own chain of command and could be used independently if necessary. Perhaps from the English to the American Civil wars would define the period better.

Oh dear Bill,
and everyone was happy, except those who had to mow the grass

smilies/biggrin.gif

btw. Rumil is going on a quest across the sea, not by the straight path, I hasten to add, but to the New Lands where he will attend a meeting of the wise (and rag-tag hangers-on like Rumil) to consider the effects of Sauron's poisons upon the realm of Ulmo. Big C and Lady G have arranged passage on one of Cirdan's ships for the journey to the strange land of Floridor (inhabited, we hear, by monstrous cold-drakes). With the blessing of the Valar, he should return in two weeks time.

Cheers,

Rumil