Suicide in Middle Earth

[Thingol]

Tolkien's handling of suicide in his books has always been fascinating to me. In a way Tolkien condones suicide. It is considered proper for the kings of Numenor to forsake life once they reach a certain point in their life. Tolkien describes the forsaking of that practice by the Numenorian Kings as foolish and even against nature. Aragorn renews this tradition when he nears the end of his natural life span. I have always taken this to mean that Tolkien believed that once a man reaches an age where he is no longer in control of his faculties it is against nature to continue to live. Perhaps this is not an approval of suicide, but a reaction against what Tolkien perceived as modern medicine unnaturally prolonging people’s lives. I could never tell how Tolkien felt about Turin’s suicide, the tone after Turin kills himself is unclear; it is certainly sad, but I can not tell if Tolkien approved or condemned the suicide. That is partially because the Silmarillion is put together by Christopher Tolkien, but for the most part the Silmarillion comes from actual text written by J.R.R. Tolkien. There is also the curious situation of Denethor’s suicide. "Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death. And only the heathen kings, under the dominion of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death." Tolkien clearly does not view suicide as an acceptable means of escape when faced with overwhelming hopelessness and despair. However, it is totally acceptable for elves to forsake life when they are faced with despair. Miriel (Feanor’s mom) is not condemned for committing suicide and it seems to me that Denethor had much more reason to commit suicide than Miriel did. There seems to be a double standard for elves and men.

[LúthienTinúviel]

Very interesting question. I will do my best, although I am currently in the middle of the Silmarilion and so don't have as much background...

First of all, it's important to remember that Tolkien himself was a devout Roman Catholic. In fact, he was instrumental in the conversion of C. S. Lewis. So with that information, I am going to operate on the basis that he does not condone it, and try to come up with an explanation there.

I think he does have a double standard for elves and men. I don't think he approves of suicide in men (and therefore that takes care of modern humanity), but it is a little different with elves. It seems to me that this difference would be due to their longevity. Elves are immortal basically and therefore do not have the gift of death that Men have (I think Tolkien said something about death being a gift in the Silmarilion...I will find the quote later if I can), so perhaps Tolkien sees the suicide of the immortal or more than mortal (Dunedain) as simply a seizng of a gift that was denied them by Illuvatar..

BUt then that gets weird because Iluvatar didn't give them death, they took it... Oh well. I'm perplexed. I must muse on this further and bust out my copy of The Silmarilion.

I hope I made some sense.

Namárië,
Lúthien

[Aralaithiel]

Luthien, I believe you are on the right track. I was wondering about what Thingol said, because of Tolkien's Catholicism. You actually made a lot of sense!
Now I'm going to go look into The Silmarillion & see if I can find it...but I think you are right.

[Kuruharan]

I'm not sure that the Numenoreans resigning their lives is exactly suicide. The way that it is phrased it's a "grace" given to them to be able to die when the time comes. I think that it means that there is a sort of inner certainty that the person in question has that it is their time to go, and they can go then before they start to decay or they can go when their bodies can no longer support their life. The choice is up to them. I guess that maybe a sort of suicide, but I don't really look at it that way.

[Joy]

As for Elves, I don't have a clue, but with the case of Aragorn, I agree with Kuruharan. It was a special grace that enabled them to know when their life was at its end and choose to pass on, to yeild their spirit back to Ilùvatar, who created them. I have seen cases of several people who in their 80's or 90's have decided that they are ready to die. They tell their family's and have their will read and executed, then they go to their beds and die within the hour. They, by their own will give their spirit permission to leave.

This is not suicide in the common sense of the word. The word suicide come from the Latin sui meaning self and another word, which I have forgotten meaning murder. They do not kill themselves in a violent matter, like a murder, but peacefully decide to let their spirit go.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

I agree with Joy...if, after many years, a day comes which is devoid of light then passing is natural, not suicide

[Elven-Maiden]

I don't think that Aragorn committed suicide. It was more like acknowleding the end of his life. As a Catholic, I think that Tolkien was talking about a "Happy Death", meaning in communion with God, not committing suicide.

Thatm at least, was my interpretation. smilies/smile.gif

[Thingol]

But the thing is there is a choice. One can choose to live out ones natural lifespan, as did many of the so called foolsih Numenorian kings, or one can just give up on life and die. I'm not saying that I think that it is wrong to just lie down and die if you will become witless and totally dependent on others, I just think it's curious the way Tolkien dealt with it. Perhaps it reveals what Tolkien thought of old age. The Elves would never die naturally so it is not like they are accepting the inevitable. It is not frowned upon for the elves to give up on life. I guess this is because they don't really die in the same sense that men do. They go to the Halls of Mandos to find healing for their spirit. It is difficult to equate elven experiences with those of men, especially modern men.

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Anarya SilverBranch]

In some cases with the suicide of elves, I've noticed that it's not very fair how it effects others around them. Like when, oh I can't remember her name now, but that Elf maid who forgot everything, than accidentaly married her brother, and when she found out what she had done she threw herself off a cliff, even though she was pregnent with her brothers child. I understand the whole taking the gift Illuvatar deprived them of, but when it means other innocents are killed when an elf kills themself, that just not right.

[Thingol]

She wasn't an elf maid she was a mortal woman. She was Nienor daughter of Hurin and Morwen, Turin's sister.

[Anarya SilverBranch]

Oh, alright then never mind, got my facts mixed up, but I still think it wasn't fair.

[Mat_Heathertoes]

I agree with KuruHaran on this. In Tolkiens works there is a marked difference between forcibly trying to take ones life and the relinquishing of it voluntarily as part of the Gift of Men. There are some interesting quotes in the Akallabeth which illustrate how Tolkien perceives mortality in his sub-creative world.

Then the Messengers said: 'Indeed the mind of Illuvatar concerning you is not known to the Valar, and he has not revealed all things that are to come. But this we hold to be true, that your home is not here, neither in the Land of Aman nor anywhere else within the Circles of the World. And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Illuvatar. It became a grief to them only because coming under the shadow of Morgoth it seemed to them that they were surrounded by a great darkness, of which they were afraid; and some grew wilful and proud and would not yield, until life was reft from them. We who bear the ever-mounting burden of the years do not clearly understand this; but if that grief has returned to trouble you, as you say, then we fear that the Shadow arises once more and grows again in your hearts. Therefore, though you be Dúnedain, fairest of Men, who escaped from the Shadow of old and fought valiantly against it, we say to you: Beware!

Now this is a very indicative passage by J.R.R. Tolkien and it is expanding upon by other references to the mysterious "fall" of mankind in the East of Middle-Earth before the three Houses of the Edain passed over the Ered Luin in the First Age of Middle-Earth. It appears that by the above quote, the ability to relinquish ones life was part of the original gift of men, as the Valaquenta touches upon ..

'But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he [Illuvatar] willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life; amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else....

Silmarillion - Chapter 1 - Of The Beginning of Days

So I would argue that Melkor, being the truest to his purpose amongst the Valar, saw his chance, as he tried with the Quendi in the Ages of the Trees and left Angband to go East and corrupt Men in the infancy of their existence

The Valar sat now behind their mountains at peace; and having given light to Middle-Earth they left it for long untended and the lordship of Morgoth was uncontested ....

Silmarillion Chapter 12 'Of Men'

and also ..

But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildórien at the rising of the Sun spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-Earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War. Of his dealings with Men the Eldar indeed knew nothing, at that time, and learnt but little afterwards; but that a darkness lay upon the hearts of Men (as the shadow of the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos lay upon the Noldor) they perceived clearly even in the people of the Elf-Friends whom they first knew. To corrupt or destroy whatsoever arose new and fair was ever the chief desire of Morgoth; and doubtless he had his purpose also in his errand: by fear and lies to make Men the foes of the Eldar....

Silmarillion - Chapter 17 - Of the Coming of Men into the West

It was indeed evident that Morgoth had planted lies into the hearts of the fathers of the fathers of the fathers of mankind before they even met the Avari and that these lies were the beginning of the Shadow and the fear of death that all mankind had ...

All this is but Elvish lore. tales to beguile newcomers that are unwary. The Sea has no shore. There is no Light in the West. You have followed the fool-fire of the Elves to the end of the world!

The Silmarillion - Chapter 17 - Of the coming of Men into the West

This last then I will say to you, thrall Morgoth,' said Húrin, 'and it comes not from the lore of the Eldar, but is put into my heart in this hour. You are not the Lord of Men, and shall not be, though all the Arda and Menel fall in your dominion. Beyond the Circles of the World you shall not pursue those who refuse you.'
'Beyond the Circles of the World I will not pursue them,' said Morgoth. 'For beyond the Circles of the World there is Nothing. But within them they shall not escape me, until they enter into Nothing.'
'You lie,' said Húrin.

Narn I Hin Hurin - Unfinished Tales

So as you see, the original 'Fall of Mankind' was the lie, created by Melkor that there was nothing beyond mortal death and that the Eldar did not die and were therefore in some fashion, privileged and to be envied

And Sauron in Numenor echoed this lie as he said to Ar-Pharazon the Golden when, in his pride, he felt old age approach ..

The Valar have possessed themselves of the land where there is no death; and they lie to you concerning it, hiding it as best they may, because of their avarice and their fear is lest the Kings of Men should wrest from them the deathless realm and rule the world in their stead. And though, doubtless, the gift of life unending is not for all, but only for such as are worthy, being men of might and pride and great lineage, yet against all, justice is done that this gift, which is his due, should be withheld from the King of Kings, Ar Pharazon......

Akallabeth

And down the ages this lie seems to be repeated and expanded and sown deeper into the hearts of men, comparable with our own 'Original Sin' in so far, like the men of Tolkiens mythology, the gift of our existence has been spurned and we reap the consequences thereof.

Faramir makes another evocative reference to the passing of the truth and the waning of the Men of the West when he says

'For so we reckon Men in our lore, calling them High, or Men of the West, which were Númenoreans; and the Middle Peoples, Men of the Twilight, such as are the Rohirrim and their kin that dwell still far in the North; and the Wild, the Men of Darkness.'
'Yet now, if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too are have become more like to them, and can scare claim any longer the title High....'

But I think JRRT sums it all up neatly when he says ...

But the view of the myth is that Death - the mere shortness of human life-span - is not a punishment for the Fall but a biologically (and therefore also spiritually, since body and spirit are integrated) inherent part of Man's nature. The attempt to escape it is wicked because 'unnatural', and silly because Death in that sense is the Gift of God (envied by the Elves), release from the weariness of Time, Death in the penal sense, is viewed as a change in attitude to it; fear, reluctance. A good Numenorean died of free will when he felt it to be time to do so.

So to sum up it is evident that suicide in the sense of terminating ones existence in a 'forced' sense, i.e self-immolation or by the blade of one's own sword is different from Tolkiens innate, consistent mythological scenario of a "free" [from Shadow] man willfully and peacefully relinquishing his existence within the Circles of the World when he thought it appropriate.

In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory. Farewell!

[Elenhin]

I agree with Kuruharan and Mat Heathertoes: the deaths of the Numenorean kings can't be called suicides. The lived to the ends of their natural lifespans and then died by their own free wills. The later kings of Numenor, on the other hand, tried to live longer than it was natural. Of the first Numenorean king to do so, Tolkien says the following: "And Atanamir lived to a great age, clinging to his life beyond the end of all joy... refusing to depart until he was witless and unmanned...". Remember also that in Numenor "wise men laboured unceasingly to discover if they might the secret of recalling life, or at the least of prolonging of Men's days". This doesn't sound very natural to me.
Of course, same kind of things could be said about modern medicine... andperhaps Tolkien is trying to.

I think that Elves who die to depression are very different from despaired Men who commit suicide. Elves go to Mandos for healing and may return to life, but a Man's lifetime in Arda is limited. A Man should use his life for good purposes and not to abandon it without purpose. If an Elf dies to depression... well, it wasn't his own choice to be so depressed and if there was any other way out, I'm sure that no Elf would have to resort to abandoning his body. A Man who commits suicide in desperation is not looking for healing or solution to the situation at hand, but escape from it. Denethor could have, for example, died honorably like Theoden and fulfilled his obligation to his people.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The word suicide come from the Latin sui meaning self and another word, which I have forgotten meaning murder.

The word you're thinking of is occidere - to kill. None of the characters who relinquish life do so by an act of violence against themselves, wherein lies the distinction.

[Joy]

Thank you Squatter. It has been almost 10 years since my Latin class. I have forgotten a lot though the years.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I never knew that much to start with, Joy; just the words concerning violence and alcohol. smilies/smile.gif

[amyrlis]

Squatter - I am confused by your statement:

None of the characters who relinquish life do so by an act of violence against themselves, wherein lies the distinction.

Are you just refering to the Numenorean Kings, or all of Tolkien's characters? Just wondering. smilies/smile.gif

Thingol, I was thinking about Maedhros (elf) who took his own life by throwing himself into a fissure. I always assumed he went to the Halls of Mandos to wait for many long ages, but was at some point healed and walked again among the Noldor in Valinor. So, it would seem that there is no "punishment" for elvish suicide, other than a rather lengthy stay in Mandos.

I think you've answered your own question in that it is not a "double-standard" between elves and men, but there is just such a great difference in what death means for the two races. Elvish "death" in Arda seems more like a physical death than a spiritual one. And human death is refered to as more of a "release" from the confines of the world - a nice way to put it I think! smilies/smile.gif

Mat_H - thanks for posting all those passages, I never have my books with me, so it's great when someone else looks the stuff up!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I mean throughout the books. Suicide is always portrayed as such, and never referred to as the relinquishing of life. I believe that there's a definite distinction there.

[amyrlis]

Thanks Squatter, now I understand what you were saying. At first I thought you meant that there were no "violent suicides" in Tolkien's writings and I would have disagreed due to Maedhros, Turin and Nienor. But, you were stating that the relinquishing of life is distinctly different than suicide. Got it now!

[LúthienTinúviel]

Ah! I said a while back that I thought I read somewhere in the Sil that death was actually a gift given to Men by Ilúvatar. It turns out I was not crazy, but right.

For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold death from him (Beren), which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men.

The Silmarillion Chapter 19 -end

So this would lend itself to the theory that perhaps the "suicide" of elves was less of a negative, extinguishing action, but rather the seizing of a gift naturally denied them. I don't know. Perhpas this helps a little.

[Amarinth]

i also never perceived the "laying down" of the lives of numenorean kings as suicide, thingol. it was more like another element in the continuum of grace accorded to the descendants of elros, in that elros having chosen to be joined with the atani and sundered from the quendi, had forfeited eternal life for all his seed, but nevertheless bestowed with the mitigating grace of lengthy years and the privilege of declaring such grace full by commending one's soul to illuvatar. in short, it was sort of not ending life itself, but rather, ending the grace of a longer life, which by ancestral choice should've been short.

the distinction of suicide being less acceptable in elves also escaped me, hmmm...from what i understood, tolkien associated the taking (not commending) of one's life with negative conditions, such as niennor's despair at discovering the truth, maedhros torment from the silmaril or miriel's post-partum despondency after the birth of fiery feanor, as the guys above have pointed out. because of such states occasioning it, suicide as i understand was, for tolkien, something wrong regardless of who commits it, be he elf or no. and i'm more inclined to think that it must be more grevious for men to commit it, because this is an act tantamount to forcing the gift of death to men from illuvatar.

[alatar]

Not sure that this is the exact thread for my thoughts...but here goes anyway.

So to sum up it is evident that suicide in the sense of terminating ones existence in a 'forced' sense, i.e self-immolation or by the blade of one's own sword is different from Tolkiens innate, consistent mythological scenario of a "free" [from Shadow] man willfully and peacefully relinquishing his existence within the Circles of the World when he thought it appropriate.
I started rereading The Stand by Stephen King, as it's January and nothing helps with the post-holiday blues than reading about a pandemic that wipes about 99.4% of the world's population, followed by a showdown between good and evil, all taking place within a book of over a billion or so words (get the extended version if you really really need to read something).

An aside: One of the fifty or so 'main' characters, Frannie, makes reference to Tolkien. Her father had a shed in the back yard, and the door to the same was smaller than usual. As a child, and maybe even as a young woman, she always hoped that when she opened the door, instead of finding her father's work room, she would find Bag End, and the tunnels (dry) and oddities that made up any well-to-do hobbit hole. This never happened, but she still liked her father's room just the same.

Did I mention that her father smoked a pipe? And that one of her ancestors took the name of Tobias Downs? Anyone else wonder which muse was murmuring in the author's ear?

Where was I? Oh, anyway, so in the first part of the book, you, as the reader, realize that a super germ gets out and starts killing every man, woman and child (and dog) that gets near anyone that is infected. It's sometimes bleak reading, as you know that anyone near any character that sneezes or coughs will soon be dead, and that includes the infant in the car, the kids out in the backyard, etc. Mostly the death happens off screen, but you do get to read about some of it, and it's not very uplifting.

Also, the persons responsible, instead of trying to stop the pandemic, first want to cover up their involvement, and in doing so, allow the plague to spread to the point where it gets out of hand. They even seed it across the oceans to confuse any researchers - not that any are left after a few weeks to point any fingers. After that, civilization breaks down, the dying take one last swing at the resistant people, and then, well, the real fun begins...

So I started thinking about facing such a plague - been here before, as, as a former molecular biologist, you think about plagues and super bugs and biowarfare sometimes. That got to thinking about facing such a death, especially now that I have a little family, and what you would do in such a scenario. Knowing that most probably you weren't resistant - especially when you started with the symptoms - how would you face that day, knowing that death was just around the bend? Is there a way around the despair, or, better put, where would one find hope (assuming no thoughts of afterlife)?

And, anyway, that broadened into thinking about despair in general. We all know, even if we never think about, that we are going to die. Big whoop most days. But what if...sniff...cough... you were faced with that 'day' today?

Hurin showed great courage when he and his men provided a rearguard so that Turgon could escape. Surely that day Hurin thought he was going to die. But what made him stay, when he could just as easily fled with Turgon, having his men hold the pass until he got away? Maybe if he had gotten away, his and his family's lives would not have been so sad. Regardless, he chose to stay and fight, and yet did not die, but in choosing to stay, was that not a form of suicide? And yet, even making this decision, was he not being filled more with hope (that some good would come from his death) than with despair (that all was lost)?

Not that I'm advocating anything, but when you are faced with that kind of a decision, how do you know when to stay and fight, or when to run, and how do you maintain hope and fight back despair? And how can we judge those that give into despair, as, in my example, Hurin chooses death because of hope, though we may never have known it?

Hope that this makes sense to someone.

[Andsigil]

I see a difference between suicide and self-sacrifice in Western culture. Suicide is something selfish, considered immoral by the main western religion (Christianity), and is something for which people can be forcibly locked up if they fail (a process known as a "committal").

Self-sacrifice is done for a purpose, with nobler intentions in mind- usually to save the lives of others.

Addendum: I read The Stand, as well, and the book never made much sense to me: here are the plights and trials of all of these people in what is supposed to be a great struggle between good and evil, and how is it resolved? Trashcan Man, in a blatant and silly deus ex machina, setting off the nuke. Not only that, but his actions also render the entire plot pointless; no matter what the heroes would have been doing or not doing, he would have set off that explosion anyway. Very disappointing plot.

[alatar]

I see a difference between suicide and self-sacrifice in Western culture. Suicide is something selfish, considered immoral by the main western religion (Christianity), and is something for which people can be forcibly locked up if they fail (a process known as a "committal").

Self-sacrifice is done for a purpose, with nobler intentions in mind- usually to save the lives of others.
So suicide and self-sacrifice differ only in the mind of the observer? You may think I'm cowardly for not wanting Captain Trips to take me by hopping off the tallest building I can find (not very easy to do in Hobbiton), but I see it as self-sacrifice as my caretakers wouldn't then need to waste their time on me.

Plus I'd be feeding the pigeons too.

Addendum: I read The Stand, as well, and the book never made much sense to me: here are the plights and trials of all of these people in what is supposed to be a great struggle between good and evil, and how is it resolved? Trashcan Man, in a blatant and silly deus ex machina, setting off the nuke. Not only that, but his actions also render the entire plot pointless; no matter what the heroes would have been doing or not doing, he would have set off that explosion anyway. Very disappointing plot.
Much agreed. The characters are very well done; you spend much time getting to know and like (or hate) them, and the plot seems so mysterious...what's with the Walkin' Dude, etc? And then Stephen King doesn't disappoint - the plot just falls to nothing and you're left wondering why you wasted the effort. :rolleyes:

That said, I'm still going to read it again.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Didn't Turin bump himself off ?

[Andsigil]

So suicide and self-sacrifice differ only in the mind of the observer? You may think I'm cowardly for not wanting Captain Trips to take me by hopping off the tallest building I can find (not very easy to do in Hobbiton), but I see it as self-sacrifice as my caretakers wouldn't then need to waste their time on me.

Plus I'd be feeding the pigeons too.

Very noble intentions. :)

[Vaine]

Didn't Turin bump himself off ?

Practically yes, although he did 'ask' Gurthang (His sword) if it would be so kind as to end his life, before he let his body fall on it's edge :)

[alatar]

Welcome to the Downs, Vaine.

Practically yes, although he did 'ask' Gurthang (His sword) if it would be so kind as to end his life, before he let his body fall on it's edge :)
Another example of 'suicide' for the greater good and for hope. Turin made a mess of everything he touched and everyone with whom he formed a relationship and so, to him perhaps, exiting the stage would further the cause against Morgoth and cut short the mayhem that the dark vala hoped to continue via the CoH. Níniel/Niënor may have felt the same.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And to be fair, Turin and his sister might well
have been considered to have been
driven clinically (at least temporarily) insane.

[alatar]

Not to make this thread too schizophrenic, but I stumbled upon this:


For a long time-ten years, at least-I had wanted to write a fantasy epic like The Lord of the Rings, only with an American setting. I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Then, slowly after my wife and kids and I moved to Boulder, Colorado, I saw a 60 Minutes segment on CBW (chemical-biological warfare). I never forgot the gruesome footage of the test mice shuddering, convulsing, and dying, all in twenty seconds or less. That got me remembering a chemical spill in Utah that killed a bunch of sheep (these were canisters on their way to some burial ground; they fell off the truck and ruptured). I remembered a news reporter saying, "If the winds had been blowing the other way, there was Salt Lake City." This incident later served as the basis of a movie called Rage, starring George C. Scott, but before it was released, I was deep into The Stand, finally writing my American fantasy epic, set in a plague-decimated USA. Only instead of a hobbit, my hero was a Texan named Stu Redman, and instead of a Dark Lord, my villain was a ruthless drifter and supernatural madman named Randall Flagg. The land of Mordor ("where the shadows lie, according to Tolkien) was played by Las Vegas.

Guess he missed it by *that* much...;)

[Nerwen]

Guess he missed it by *that* much...;)

Is laughing oneself to death considered suicide?:D

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Stephen King makes Terry Brooks look
like Frank Herbert .

[Bêthberry]

Every time I see this thread title I think of that iconic song, not the cover by Manic Street Preachers or Marilyn Manson, but the theme song from MASH: the movie (http://www.geocities.com/~cheshyre/Song.htm) and the TV show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlObZqhUWpg).

Those were definitely not Tolkien moments, though, so this post must be just another schizophrenic comment which muddies al's query about hope and despair.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Miriel (Feanor’s mom) is not condemned for committing suicide

Ah, but that's not really true. In later years, the Wise considered her choice to have been at the root of Everything Bad. Even at the time, Mandos predicts that no good will come of it. Laws & Customs Among the Eldar and its associated texts are pretty hard on Miriel.

It is however the case that 'suicide' for an Elf means something rather different than for a human, as the Elf's life within Arda can never be ended. The fea may be houseless for a time, and confined to Mandos, whether the hroa is physically destroyed or merely 'dies of grief:' but these are 'seeming deaths,' because the Elf never leaves the World.

In fact, since Elves can 'die of grief,' it would seem that 'suicide' by violence isn't even necessary for them; they're capable of 'suicide' by will.

[LadyBrooke]

This might just be me, but the Kings letting go of their lives always seemed to me to be like the chronically ill person who instead of clinging to live by the use of machines and stuff lets themselves die. As somebody who is very sickly (having had meningitis, tubes in her ears due to severe ear infections that cause her ear drums to burst several times and lose of hearing, chronic tonsilitis, born premature, etc.) the distinction is very clear to me that once a person passes a certain point it stops being living and becomes merely existing. I myself have decided that as soon as I am old enough I will have a living will telling everybody to not put me on any machine. Perhaps this seems like suicide to some, but to me it is putting my fate in God’s hands and excepting that I will go when it is my time. While I hesitate to stick words in anybody’s mouth, this may possibly be along the same lines that Tolkien (and by extension the Númenorean Kings) was thinking.

Um, sorry if this isn’t very clear or anything. :( I’m rather nervous as this is my first post of this website, though I have posted on other websites and have lurked here for a long time.

[Pitchwife]

Actually, you've made your point perfectly clear, and I find your analogy quite convincing. So keep on posting, and welcome in the Afterlife!

[alatar]

This might just be me, but the Kings letting go of their lives always seemed to me to be like the chronically ill person who instead of clinging to live by the use of machines and stuff lets themselves die. As somebody who is very sickly (having had meningitis, tubes in her ears due to severe ear infections that cause her ear drums to burst several times and lose of hearing, chronic tonsilitis, born premature, etc.) the distinction is very clear to me that once a person passes a certain point it stops being living and becomes merely existing. I myself have decided that as soon as I am old enough I will have a living will telling everybody to not put me on any machine. Perhaps this seems like suicide to some, but to me it is putting my fate in God’s hands and excepting that I will go when it is my time. While I hesitate to stick words in anybody’s mouth, this may possibly be along the same lines that Tolkien (and by extension the Númenorean Kings) was thinking.
LadyBrooke, welcome to the Downs! Sorry for your illness; hope that you have better days. :)

My father, in his last days of battling advanced cancer, decided to 'let go.' He had had enough, and while his mind was still able, he had his feeding tube removed along with any source of hydration. At the time, though as a biologist I knew better, I hoped that maybe, just maybe he was feeling better, but he wasn't. I explained to my siblings that the countdown clock had started and we would only a few days left together. He made it about five days- a couple of them conscious - and then that was it. Now we wished that he had tried some of the experimental treatments that he was offered, but at the time he had found inconvenient.

Anyway, it all reminds me of the Kings.

Um, sorry if this isn’t very clear or anything. :( I’m rather nervous as this is my first post of this website, though I have posted on other websites and have lurked here for a long time.
You're doing fine.

[LadyBrooke]

Sorry to hear about your Father. In the last couple years our family has been in similar situation with both my Mom’s aunt and my Step-Dad’s uncle. My great-aunt actually had been in remission, but it came back and this time she wasn’t strong enough for chemotherapy. Her life is actually the biggest inspiration for both my view on my life and the analogy above. At the end of her life she said it was time for her to go to the Lord and that it was her time. Of course this view has gotten me in trouble several times because my family can’t understand it. Much of the same bitterness Arwen has. Which I can understand and at the same time I can’t.

[alatar]

I miss my father at times, of course, but I try to look forward, as I am the father to my kids. When we speak about such things, I never hide that we all will die - with four kids, I'm constantly being plied with questions, and so it comes up. I've even been asked the second question, which is "why do we *have* to die?"

My answer's been that we need to move on, that we need to make room physically and emotionally for our children to grow. I guess that what I'm trying to say that I never truly will be a parent until I'm no longer anyone's child (or something).

This 'letting go' is, to me, consistent with what Tolkien was expressing.

[LadyBrooke]

I strongly believe that death is not the end but the beginning of something new. Which is probably one of the reason’s I enjoy Tolkien’s books so much - Death is not portrayed as the horrible thing that it is viewed as in the modern world but rather a natural part of life and a gift from Eru.

I suppose as a teenager who almost died as a child I can’t help but view it as something to not be feared. Once you’ve faced something once it becomes a lot less scary because you know you can handle it. A rather morbid view from a kid, but I’d rather spend my life living rather than spend it avoiding death. Also I’ve held pets while they’re dying - an inevitable when you have as many as we do - and when they’re just about to die you can tell they’re at peace. I’ve heard the same thing from many people who work in hospices.

I miss everybody in my life who’s died but at the same time I’m kinda happy for them. They’re in a better place which is all I want - for them to be happy and to have the same happen to me when it’s my time.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Excellent posting and a well-thought out philosophy
of life Ladybrooke .

Of course, in later Numenor you'd obviously be one of the Faithful,
challenging, especially if you're prone to seasickness. :)

[littlemanpoet]

A rather morbid view from a kid, but I’d rather spend my life living rather than spend it avoiding death.Far from being morbid, I think you've stated a very healthy outlook.

This last reading of LotR (6th), I noticed something that I had apparently forgotten about in previous readings: when Sam is alone near Cirith Ungol, in the chapter, "Choices of Master Samwise", he does actually consider suicide. His answer is decisive if vaguely thought. I found it quite fascinating that Tolkien would have even happy Sam think that way.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This last reading of LotR (6th), I noticed something that I had apparently forgotten about in previous readings: when Sam is alone near Cirith Ungol, in the chapter, "Choices of Master Samwise", he does actually consider suicide. His answer is decisive if vaguely thought. I found it quite fascinating that Tolkien would have even happy Sam think that way.

Really? What exactly do you have in mind? Could you quote? (I am too lazy to look it up on my own now :) and anyway, I think for potential readers of this thread, it would be helpful as well.)

[Farael]

Well, it seems there are two things a man cannot resist, the lure of the One Ring and the lure of a good discussion in the Barrow Downs. A hearty hello for those of you who remember me! And another hello for those of you who will be hearing from me for the first time.

Talking about suicide in Middle Earth, and even though this has already been stated to a higher or lesser degree, I find there are two kinds of "self-inflicted deaths"

On one hand we have the relenquishing of life by the Kings of Numenor, which I've always thought was less of a suicide/self inflicted death and more of an acknowledgement that his time had come as ordained by Iluvatar (and thus, not really the King's fault). It was not borne out of despair or any other selfish feelings and perhaps it was not even a real choice for the king. It might have been a sudden insight that the time had come and that Illuvatar wished him to pass on to whatever fate men had. What man not swayed by the shadows would refuse Iluvatar's will? Thus it is not much of a choice, is it?

On the other hand we have the taking of one's life by violence, like Turin did when he took a dive on Mormegil. While one can say that his motives were altrusitic because all he had done had come to grief and thus by removing himself from Arda he would avoid bringing further trouble to his loved ones, it was a selfish act and quite likely against the will of Iluvatar. After all, if I know my christian theology properly, it is said that G'd has a plan for each of us and that no matter how tough things might look He knows what He is doing and in the end it all becomes clear. So assuming Tolkien borrowed from this tradition, by killing himself, Turin might've not only acted against Iluvatar's will but he might have also prevented Iluvatar's plan for him from being fulfilled. Perhaps Turin, after all his failures, would have in the end won a redeeming battle against Morgoth. We will never know.

Then there are other scenarios that have been brought up. Hurin's "last stand" is an example of, essentially, giving up on life (even if for a very altruistic cause). However, how does this fit in with Iluvatar's "plan"? Well, since Hurin did not slay himself and instead he fought hard and well against those who would slay him, it is clear he was not making the choice. If it was Iluvatar's will that he would die so others could live he was willing to make that sacrifice, but as we see that is not what happens. So Hurin is not making a choice that is not his to make (that is, WHEN to die) but rather making a choice that is very much within his responsability as a leader of men in war.

Finally there is the example of the elves which I find is no death at all (although that's not to say that there is no fault in it). If we part from the premises that
a) Elves do not really die the same way men do
b) The Halls of Mandos is a place of healing and restoring, and
c) The elves know this
then I hope we can agree there is no fault in allowing their fea to leave their hroa if they feel overwhelmed by Arda Marred. We must understand that elves (or at least elves in Middle Earth) are constantly faced with matters they were not "meant to". They were meant to be in Arda Unmarred and to take energy from Arda itself. Since they instead take their energy from Arda Marred, they will at times be caught in situations to which they are unable to find a way out. That's where the Halls of Mandos comes in, I have been slowly making my way through HoME and I just read "Laws and customs of the elves" (I think that's the name) and it changed my perspective on Mandos

I used to think Mandos was a place of punishment, and it may be after a fashion, but it is also a place of healing, where the discrepancies between what elves SHOULD have experienced (Arda Unmarred) and what they DO experience (Arda Marred) are reconciled so that the elf (if both him and Mandos so choose) can return to physical life.

So, while not exactly ideal or natural, the elves do not die as men do, and their (potentially temporary) lack of physical life does not mean an end to their spirit's life in Middle Earth. Conversely, for men there might be another kind of life, but it is beyond Middle Earth.

Unfortunately I've run out of time so I do not know if I'm making sense or not but must leave in a hurry :(. I will try to come back and edit this post later on tonight if I get the chance, but I hope what I wrote makes as much sense here as it did in my head!

[littlemanpoet]

Really? What exactly do you have in mind? Could you quote? (I am too lazy to look it up on my own now :) and anyway, I think for potential readers of this thread, it would be helpful as well.)

Here it is (my italics & bolds below):

Now he tried to find strength to tear himself away and go on a lonely journey --- for vengeance. If once he could go, his anger would bear him down all the roads of the world, pursuing, until he had him at last: Gollum. Then Gollum would die in a corner. But that was not what he had set out to do. It would not be worth while to leave his master for that. It would not bring him back. Nothing would. They had better both be dead together. And that too would be a lonely journey.

He looked on the bright point of the sword. He thought of the places behind where there was a black and an empty fall into nothingness. There was no escape that way. That was to do nothing, not even to grieve. That was not what he had set out to do.

It is a very subtle (not quite the word I want) implication, but clear nonetheless. It also works as a comparison to Denethor, who professed to grieve but did not; rather as Gandalf said, to ease his own death-taking.

[Kuruharan]

I must admit that I'd never noticed that either.

Excellent find lmp!!

I think its interesting that it is a sense of duty that compels Sam to continue.

There might be something to be said for having something left to do.

[Inziladun]

I'd recently thought of starting a thread on this topic, but a search of the forum revealed this more than adequate discussion on the matter.
A lot of good points have been made, but I had a couple of observations.

It seems to me that Tolkien had a general disdain for suicides committed by his characters, at least in LOTR. In earlier stories, Túrin and Húrin don't seem to bear the judgement of the author, or any other character, though maybe the fact that a representative of the Valar was not present to give any such judgement was the difference.
On the other hand, in LOTR we do see Gandalf severely disapproving of the actions of Denethor in the latter's self-inflicted death by fire.
There might seem to be a double standard, though, related to the same book.
In Letters #210 written in 1958, Tolkien had harsh words after reading a screenplay of sorts for an animated movie that was in the works. One of his criticisms had to do with the treatment of Saruman.

Z (the writer) has cut out the end of the book, including Saruman's proper death. In that case I can see no good reason in making him die. Saruman would never have committed suicide: to cling to life to its basest dregs was the sort of person he had become.

Tolkien almost seems to imply Saruman should have done himself in. Also, it's funny how he describes Saruman's chosen path using the words "cling to life": wasn't that a great sin of the Númenórean rebels? Is he saying Saruman's judgement might have been different if he had deliberately killed himself? Or is it merely a contrast to Gandalf, who didn't die by his own hand, but allowed the sacrifice of his mortal body in order to accomplish his errand?

On an unrelated note, I've wondered if Gollum's "slip" wasn't really a suicide, conscious or not. The suggestion could have been planted in his mind just before his death by Frodo.

'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'

I can see Gollum welcoming death at that point, thinking that ultimately he had no hope in life, and seeing an out that would free both him and Frodo, whom he had gained at least some affection for. Was he deliberately careless after attacking Frodo, not concerned with his movements near the Fire? The book says his eyes looked up at the Ring as he took the fatal step. Simple Ring-lust, or a desire to have it be the last thing he saw as he fell? The book says he tottered on the edge, and wavered, but it doesn't look to me as if he really tried to save himself.

That's all just an idea, but I think it's interesting.

[Galadriel55]

Tolkien held the belief that Men have to be able to give up their life freely. Death was given to Men from Eru as a gift, but Morgoth turned into a curse, and people began to fear it. How wretched does life have to seem for a person to cast it away and seek solace in death? Pretty wretched. So in such a case Tolkien condones suicide, or at least does not condemn it. He makes us pity the character. In some cases, though... I guess I'll have to go over the cases/passages individually.

Miriel - that's not suicide. That's just death, as death is. When you have no strength - physical, emotional, spiritual, etc - to live, then guess what? You die. There's no suicide here.

Fingolfin - in a way you can call that suicide. Causing as much suffering to your foe - knowing logically that you cannot beat him, but fighting anyways - since you know (or think) you're going to die anyways, so might as well bring him down with you or cause as much damage as you can. The Sil says that "a great madness of rage was upon him", so he did not think logically, but man, you have to be completely cracked to think you'll make it alive. It's the causing-as-much-damage case. And it's absolutely condoned, even admired (not in the sense that you should do that, but it is deeply respected).

It's possible to make an analogy to Theoden, when he went into battle at Minas Tirith against overwhelming odds, to do the most while you still can. However, as hopeless as his case was it was not nearly as hopeless as Fingolfin's.

Nienor - she's the perfect case of what I said earlier. She was so horrified and distraught of what has been done to her life (what she has done to her life) that Tolkien makes us pity her. Or at least me, since I know in advance Zil will disagree with me about everything I say regarding that family ;). But looking at her you cannot say that she was a coward. It takes a good deal of gut to take away your own life. And the manner in which she did it too - to quote COH:

Last of men to look down into its darkness was Brandir son of Handir; and he turned away in horror, for his heart quailed, and though he hated now his life, he could not there take the death that he desired.

Guys, it's the same "crazed" Brandir who killed Dorlas. Sure, Nienor was mad, and madness makes people blind, but madness does only so much.

One could say that Nienor escaped life because she didn't have the courage to fix it and set it right again, but that's not applicable here. Not with her life: it's doomed, and until she lives like Turin she'll cast her curse onto her loved ones. There is not way to set it right. And she can't escape it either (Turin tried that, but the past always caught up with him). ***see Denethor***

Turin - yet another "mad" one. Throughout his life he tried to put aside his past, his name, and his curse, and start life over again. He had a purpose in life for a long time - to take revenge on Morgoth. Hatered drove him on. However, when he came to accept who he is - Turin son of Hurin, a curse onto his kin, etc - and realised he can't just run away and start afresh his fate was much like Nienor's. And even more so, since he realised that by hating Morgoth he was doing what Morgoth planned for him. This was his motivation for living, as well as his family, which he thought was safe and found out was dead. It's like taking out two pillars that hold a building.

There's also another key thing here, forever. Just the thought of forever being Morgoth's puppet, forever bringing harm and destruction to where you tried to bring good, it's frightening.

To summarise, Turin's suicide is condoned. Both by the reader and by later generations.

Hurin - another one who has lost purpose and desire to live. "Bereft of all purpose and desire" - that's what The Sil says. There's no difference between death and life. Nothing matters. He wasn't escaping anything, because he had nothing to escape. Life is worthless. Hurin is honoured, respected, etc.

And since I'm on this family, I'd like to mention Morwen, who, once has achieved her only goal - to find her children - gives way to death. Her purpose drove her on when a more, quote unquote, sane person would have died, and once it was achieved the fire of life went out of her.

Elwing - yes, she's attempted suicide. During the Third Kinslaying she cast herself into the Sea. Thinking about her motivation, I came up with this thought: rather take my life and my dearest posessions myself than let them do it". This is questionable, though, since she left her sons to their own fate. We don't know the exact circumstances of Elwing's attempt, though, so it's possible that she did not willingly abandon Elrond and Elros - maybe they were captured, or they were separated, etc. The topic of lack of motherly protection has been quite popular, so I won't pursue it.

Maedhros - yet another one without a purpose. The loss of the right to the Silmarili this time. Maglor, on the other hand, always seemed to me as the less ambitious one, a more accepting personality. And he took solace in music.

Eowyn - somewhat similar to Fingolfin. But her's isn't a case of taking down as many foes as you can. She's such a case that I have a hard time explaining or putting down in words. I put special emphasis on the desire for death in battle. She was at the same time trying to take the last desperate step to her dream, and proving herself to Aragorn, and committing suicide. But I'm still missing the point I want to make. *sigh*

Denethor - utter, utter despair. His suicide can be sort of divided into two parts: before Gandalf's arrival and after. Before, we think his despair was caused by Faramir's near-death state. And that is, even in my opinion (:D), no legitimate reason to throw in the towel. But then we find out that this is only the breaking straw for Denethor - his despair goes much deeper beyond that, through the Palantir. And no, I can't anymore condemn him. He should have seen some light at the end of the tunnel, but you can't force a person to see it. Gandalf tried, unsuccessfully. In other words, I am taking the blame off Denethor. He's yet another character who the reader pities. And also one who is half mad.

His case is different from Nienor's because he actually had a real chance to find hope, start over, recover, you name it.

The Later Numenorians - they did not want to accept death when it came, and they tried to prolong their life. They clung onto their lives past their limits. In a way, they became thralls to life:

Fed only to keep alive, kept alive only to toil, toiling only for the fear of pain or death. (Sador in COH)

As mortals who are not completely broken by fate as the people above, they love life - who doesn't? But you have to give it away eventually. "One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters."

Aragorn - like the Numenorians during the earlier SA, Aragorn gives up his life on his own free will. He caught the right moment. You don't throw away your life just because you'll die eventually anyways, but you don't cling to it either. You just, well, hand it over when the moment comes.

This reminds me uncannily of the Tale of the Three Brothers (or some such - I forgot what it's really called) from Harry Potter 7. You know, the one about Death. Only the person who lived his life wisely and when time came embraced death died honourably.


But here comes this contradictory piece:

"Authority is not given to you, Stewart of Gondor, to order the hour of your death. And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death." (Gandalf to Denethor, ROTK)

The first part, about the authority, probably means that the right moment didn't come yet - according to Gandalf's judgement. The part about the suicidal kings condemns suicide for the sake of suicide - and murder, to make it less emotionally painful.


Generally speaking (which I wanted to do in the beginning, but ended up writing this for 2 hours), I tend to condone suicide. It's not to be idealised or encouraged, but I don't have it in me to call any person who deliberately parts with their life a coward. It's no simple thing to do. I've had many arguments about various suicidal characters with different people, and I always say that even if suicide is an escape from the obstacles of life, or the consequences, or etc, it's not like walking out the front door. It's not that you're just escaping your current conditions, you're escaping through something that generally living creatures fear to death (bad pun, I know). Instead, I ask to look at suicide from a different perspective: how dreadful or worthless can life be, if death seems better? Going back to the quote about Brandir, his life was also in shatters, but it wasn't bad enough for him to take his life himself. He didn't fear death in the end, but giving up your life and talking it yourself are in a way different things. Brandir did not have the despair to jump into Cabed Naeramarth, or perhaps the courage - which is not to call him a coward at all.

Ok, now I'm going off topic again, so I'm going to stop.

Tolkien almost seems to imply Saruman should have done himself in.

Maybe not exactly done himself in, but loved life a tad less, if you get my meaning. He became a thrall of life.

On an unrelated note, I've wondered if Gollum's "slip" wasn't really a suicide, conscious or not.

I don't believe that an accident can be called a suicide. The slip was accidental on Gollums part; you can argue that it was meant so by fate, but fate doesn't always give you your preference. I don't see a reason for Gollum to want to die. The Smeagol inside of him was dead a long time ago. His affection for Frodo disappeared. The only thing he had left was his hunger for his preciouss. In a sense, Gollum also falls into the category of people who upon their death have no purpose - either because it is unachievable, or because it has been achieved.



This might be the longest post I've written so far. :eek: Sorry for the novel.

[Sardy]

This calls to mind a related question - that of the idea of Faith vs. Knowledge in the elves. Perhaps if there is sufficient discussion, this should be given it's own thread...

Particularly of the elves born in Middle-earth (though possibly of the older elves, whereas memory of Mandos and Valinor might have faded to a dreamlike remembrance over the passage of millenia), is their eventual appearance in Mandos or journey to Valinor upon being slain or leaving Middle-earth forgone knowledge that they could count upon in their every day actions and decisions, or is it more akin to a strong conviction or faith, hoping for and believing in an "afterlife" upon leaving Middle-earth...?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This calls to mind a related question - that of the idea of Faith vs. Knowledge in the elves. Perhaps if there is sufficient discussion, this should be given it's own thread...

Particularly of the elves born in Middle-earth (though possibly of the older elves, whereas memory of Mandos and Valinor might have faded to a dreamlike remembrance over the passage of millenia), is their eventual appearance in Mandos or journey to Valinor upon being slain or leaving Middle-earth forgone knowledge that they could count upon in their every day actions and decisions, or is it more akin to a strong conviction or faith, hoping for and believing in an "afterlife" upon leaving Middle-earth...?

Well obviously they have no way of verifying it "physically" - they have never seen it with their own eyes. So it is rather, as you say, a strong conviction or faith. They have to believe what their ancestors and friends who claim to have spoken to Valar themselves etc., and to believe to the legends that go among the Elves since the beginning... but in fact, to be precise, even the Elves who had e.g. met Valar face-to-face don't have any absolute knowledge. If I am not mistaken, nobody of the living has been in Mandos to actually verify that the Elves are sitting there, no? The only exception would be Glorfindel (if he indeed is the same one), so he is the closest you can get to as "eyewitness". Apart from that? You have to believe the claims of the Elves around you, or even the Valar - it is still just believing their words, not anything else.

(But of course, as a note, the fact that it is not "knowledge" but "only" faith does not mean that they could not count on it in their every day actions and decisions. What good would it be for them if they didn't? That's no faith to speak of, obviously.)

[Galadriel55]

If I am not mistaken, nobody of the living has been in Mandos to actually verify that the Elves are sitting there, no?

The way I understood it is that most of the Elves do, eventually, come out of Mandos, and they reincarnate - like Glorfindel. However, none of the reincarnated save Glorfindel ever came to ME... unless some of those who came there during War of Wrath have been through Mandos. I doubt it, though. I think Mandos doesn't let fear out so quickly... but, on the other hand, Finwe waited for Miriel to return for a long time before marrying Indis. So for some (depending on their deeds during their physical life, I would guess) the period of awaiting a new body may be short, though it's always up to them to take it or to leave it...

Argh. To many what-ifs and on-the-other-hands. Am I some kind of octopus? :rolleyes:

[blantyr]

Argh. To many what-ifs and on-the-other-hands. Am I some kind of octopus? :rolleyes:

Do not go to Galadriel for advice, for she shall say, yea, nay, maybe, on the other hand, perhaps, definitely... ;)

[Galadriel55]

Do not go to Galadriel for advice, for she shall say, yea, nay, maybe, on the other hand, perhaps, definitely... ;)

There is a 94.87% chance that it shall be so, but you know there's always the possibility of the other 5.13% out there.

However, if the fact that you said "Galadriel" and not "Galadriel55" will be taken (seriously) into account, the above statement is not exact.

See? It is exact.

On the other other other other hand, though...:D

[Inziladun]

I don't believe that an accident can be called a suicide. The slip was accidental on Gollums part; you can argue that it was meant so by fate, but fate doesn't always give you your preference.

What I key on is Frodo's threat that Gollum would be cast into the Fire. One might take that as a doom, or a curse, but Gollum wasn't made to fall by any discernible outside force. Therefore, I see it as a very possible subconscious effort on his part to free himself from the Ring in the only way he was then capable of being free. Frodo had given him the idea.

I don't see a reason for Gollum to want to die. The Smeagol inside of him was dead a long time ago. His affection for Frodo disappeared. The only thing he had left was his hunger for his preciouss. In a sense, Gollum also falls into the category of people who upon their death have no purpose - either because it is unachievable, or because it has been achieved.

Even at the very end I don't feel the Sméagol part was "dead". It was beaten down into only a whisper in Gollum's mind, but still: he could have felt a desire to help Frodo as well, if there was a way to do so without forgoing the Ring.

[blantyr]

What I key on is Frodo's threat that Gollum would be cast into the Fire. One might take that as a doom, or a curse, but Gollum wasn't made to fall by any discernible outside force. Therefore, I see it as a very possible subconscious effort on his part to free himself from the Ring in the only way he was then capable of being free. Frodo had given him the idea.

I have a different spin on the threat. I believe it was the ring itself that pronounced the threat / curse / prophecy / promise, rather than Frodo.

Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hiddeous rage and lust; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.

"Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."

The key words are 'out of the fire'. If so, the Ring, an aspect of and creation of Sauron, pronounced its own doom.

That the ring spoke those words is important to the primary theme. Throughout, Frodo was merciful towards Gollum, Sam was merciful towards Gollum, everyone was merciful towards Gollum. It's a big deal that the good guys, though Gollum deserved death, did not give it to him. Even the elves of Mirkwood showed Gollum more kindness than they would show a bunch of random dwarves. It was the Ring itself that did not show mercy.
.

[Nelyo]

First of all we must separate elven suicide and that of men.

First Children of Eru are bound to Arda, their fea can't leave it. When they are killed they go to Halls of Mandos where they find rest and healing. The Halls set them right, drive away the weariness of spent years. If Namo and Manwe decide that this fea is ready to live again, if the fea is ready to have children again (thanks Eru Feanor will return only before the end... 14 Sons of Feanor! Hide!) and if Eru gives his blessing then the elf is reembodied. The new body is like the one elf had in previous life. Being embodied is a natural state for the Elves, it is like a marriage of fea and hroa, soul and body, and it is not right for an elf to end his life. Celebrian decided to wait for help rather than commit suicide even if she had to depart to Valinor for healing later.
The hroa can die, "or so hurt that it ceases to have health, sooner or later it 'dies'. That is: it becomes painful for the fea to dwell in it, being neither a help to life and will nor a delight to use, so that the fea departs from it."
It is easy for an elf to kill himself. He just wills it to happen and whoa! he is in Mandos. Elves do it when they don't have the strenght or will to live on, or if they are heartbroken (Luthien) and it is not always considers bad. But sometimes it is impossible to do so. Maedhros couldn't die so he begged Fingon to shoot him. I suppose Morgoth denied his prisoners that way out of Angband, and the spell worked all their lives (Gwindor son of Guilin had no will to live before he met Turin, Maedhros had to jump into the fire crack to end his own existence).
Still sometimes fea can be denied the right to live again: if it commited grave sins (Feanor for sure and possibly all of his sons), if the elf fled from his body while he could still carry on his life (for example some elf was bored of living and decided to 'die' even if he was not weary as Miriel Therinde was). All in all those who killed themmselves have to spent more time in Mandos before they can feel the will to live again. Another probability to be denied life is if the fea's spouse is married again. That is why Miriel, even if the Valar said she was not guilty (she gave up her life), could not return after Finwe married Indis. Finwe had to stay in Mandos forever with both Miriel (alive) and Indis having a spouse in Mandos. Sometimes fea doesn't want to return, so it stays in Mandos. That is the sign of its weakness. Sadly Aegnor son of Finarfin is considered weak, even if he stayed because the woman he loved was mortal and couldn't return to Arda after her death. Those who died twice as a rule don't want to return, but that is not a weakness, at least I never found quotes where it is named the fea's fault. There is another sign of fea's "weakness": some don't answer The Call and never make it to Mandos (most of Avari). Those souls stay in the Middle-Earth longing for a body for ever, but they are not subjects for our study.
So as we can see Elven Suicide is not always a bad thing, but it is not for them to misuse the ability to flee from their problems))

As for Men, they never were the part of Arda to begin with. They are just guests in Middle-Earth, so they mustn't be afraid to move on, leave this world to find another one where they will be hosts (and the Elves - guests, as Finrod believes). Death was Eru's 'gift' to them, the chanse to see new places and walk away in search of their own for their souls are travellers. But Morgoth tainted it, planted in men fear of death, made them seek a cure from it. That was the Mens Failing, with it came illnesses and shortening of their lifespan.
When Numenoran kings decide to die they decide to accept the gift of death and depart without struggle. But it is only right when the time is right, and when you don't kill yourself out of despair. So Denethor II is wrong in his suicide and Elessar is accepting the One's gift. Nienor and Turin were locked in Arda and couldn't depart after their deaths in early versions of the text, so their suicides are not "right".

Tolkien never states that suicide is a good thing. He says that we must try our hardest to live when we can. and we mustn't be afraid of inevitable. It is natural for us to depart. So we will die. We have to do it with grace, if we do we will be the ones who accepted His Gift.


I recommend to read HoME-10 "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" and "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" for more info)

[Inziladun]

This topic was on my mind, and I was near starting a thread on it. I did a search first, and a good thing. I had quite forgotten this one, even though I posted in it. :rolleyes:

I just wanted to bump it up and see if someone wanted to put in their two silver pennies.

[Morthoron]

This topic was on my mind, and I was near starting a thread on it. I did a search first, and a good thing. I had quite forgotten this one, even though I posted in it. :rolleyes:.

Yes. The thought of it just kills me.

[Andsigil]

Yes. The thought of it just kills me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CdVTCDdEwI :D

[Urwen]

I can recall at least three people who committed suicide (one Elf and two Men)

[Huinesoron]

Reading G55's 'General thoughts' post (here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=668598&postcount=48)), I get the distinct impression that Tolkien viewed life as something you can, by force of will, drag on beyond its natural end. The bulk of the 'suicide' cases are people who just let go, and pass on peacefully. (There are obvious exceptions - Turin and Nienor being the chief.)

This explains why Denethor's act is wrong, while Aragorn's is laudable: Aragorn was in the final stages of his life, where he could just will himself to stop. Denethor was still hale and hearty, and had to use external means (fire) to kill himself. To put it another way, Aragorn was accepting the Gift proffered by Iluvatar at the end of his life, while Denethor was attempting to seize it early.

The modern nursing concept of end-of-life care may be relevant here. As I understand it, that's where you stop trying to treat whatever problems your patient has, and just keep them comfortable while they go. If we mix that with Tolkien's view, we get Numenorean kings who come down with eminently treatable diseases (perhaps simply a winter cold), but take it as a sign from the One that it's time to let go.

And then in the later days, we have aggressive treatment regimes, increasingly expensive medications, and kings who hang on until their diseases force the life out of them.

So what about Turin? As Galadriel55 says, the story generally views his death as acceptable, despite falling firmly in the 'seizing death early' category. Perhaps this reflects a more Elvish view, where physical infirmity isn't a thing, and the message that it's time to let go (and head to Mandos for a rest, in their case) comes through weariness of spirit. The House of Hurin were spiritually exhausted, and the Eldar would absolutely understand that as a good reason to leave (see Miriel).

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I can recall at least three people who committed suicide (one Elf and two Men)

Two elves: Miriel and Maedhros. Also Maglor depending on version. Nienor together with Turin and Denethor. And (some say) Hurin. That gets us to three and four.

---

Also, Brandir might count as a suicide-by-Turin. And Fingolfin probably counts as a kamikaze.