Man behind the Mythology

[Estelyn Telcontar]

He wrote to his daughter Priscilla after Lewis' death: So far I have felt the normal feelings of a man of my age - like an old tree that is losing all its leaves one by one: this feels like an axe-blow near the roots. That's a very touching picture that shows that the friendship still meant much to him.

edit: Darn, Sharon - you beat me to it by one minute! :p

[Olorin_TLA]

Ah, sorry Estelyn, but Child (long time no see) has it!

Yeah, that's always been a touching comment to me, especially considering how they'd drifted apart over the years. :(

[Child of the 7th Age]

Like other Hobbits, my specialty is 'slinking in' the back way! ;)

Now, on to business....

Who said this?

I think that Tom Bombadil would make quite a good story, but as The Hobbit has already been very successful I think the story of Old Took's great grand-uncle, Bullroarer, who rode a horse and charged the goblins of Mount Gram in the battle of the Green Fields and knocked King Golfimbil's (sic) head off with a wooden club would be even better. The story could be a continuation of The Hobbit , for Bilbo could tell it to Gandlf and Balin in his hobbit hole when they visited him.

[Olorin_TLA]

Tolkien's aunt?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sounds like Rayner Unwin to me...

[Child of the 7th Age]

Ooh, Esty! You are sooo close, but not quite right.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sir Stanley Unwin then?

[Child of the 7th Age]

No.....think small

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Hmmmmm, I'm still paging through both the biography and Letters with no success in finding the quote yet, so I'll venture another guess - Christopher?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Well, according to Carpenter, the 'Hobbit' review was written by Rayner Unwin...

[Child of the 7th Age]

Esty,

Me BIG goof! You are so fast in replying. I just erased my last post when I realized my error. I must be going bonkers. When I looked at your first post, I swore it said his father Stanley. As I ran out to carpool, I glanced at your second post, saw Stanley, and thought "that's not right either!"

Yes, I know your first post didn't say that! How could I goof so badly? I am very sorry to put you through that work. It is Rayner and the floor is yours.... :(

A confused Child

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's OK - it's nice to know that I recognized Rayner's style even though I did not have access to that quote! New question then: What is Tolkien touching on the last photograph taken of him? (...so typical!)

And by the way, I find it interesting to get tidbits of information from other books - no need to limit ourselves as long as the question is not so difficult that a guess isn't possible.

[Bêthberry]

An oak tree? It was some kind of tree. Not an Ent though. ;)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Tree is right, Bêthberry - the picture, taken on August 9, 1973, is in Carpenter's biography and shows him standing next to one of his favourite trees, a Pinus Nigra, in the Botanic Gardens, Oxford.

[Bêthberry]

I wonder if that tree still stands. Perhaps, if I do make a sidetrip to Oxford this summer, I should look for it and take a photograph of it.

But now for another challenge:

What famous poet remarked that hearing Tolkien read Beowulf in class was akin to hearing Gandalf read?

[The Saucepan Man]

That would be WH Auden, who wrote:


What an unforgettable experience it was for me as an undergraduate, hearing you recite Beowulf. The voice was the voice of Gandalf.

[Bêthberry]

Right you are, Sauce. I like the idea of that personal connection, the great fantasy writer teaching the one-day-to-be great modern poet. "Only connect" Auden said, I think. I wonder what kinds of reflections Tolkien's other students had.

And so, the floor is yours.... Make as much noise as you like with your question. ;)

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes and I think that in one of the later Letters, JRRT refers to Auden as one of his great friends, despite them having only actually met on a few occasions. It would seem that their friendship blossomed through correspondence.

Thanks Bb. :) Next up, and staying on the WH Auden theme:

In what way did WH Auden expose Tolkien to ridicule and cause him and, in particular, Edith much embarassment? :eek:

[Estelyn Telcontar]

By saying: He lives in a hideous house - I cannot tell you how hideous, with hideous pictures. ...publicly at a meeting of the Tolkien Society, as later reported in a London newspaper. Since he had only been in Edith's room for tea, that remark was not particularly flattering and also not true. The house was simply ordinary - something Auden hadn't expected of so extraordinary a person as Tolkien.

[The Saucepan Man]

Spot on!

It would seem that JRRT forgave him his indiscretion, though.

Well done Esty, you're up next. :)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

At JRR and Edith Tolkien's Golden Wedding Anniversary, a special musical performance was one of the highlights. What was sung and by whom?

[Child of the 7th Age]

I believe that would be a performance of Tolkien's song cycle The Road Goes Ever On. The composer Donald Swann was at the piano and a gentleman appropiately named William Elvin sang the songs.

That took place in 1966 at Merton College.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's right, Child - and a-one, a-two... - take it away!

[Child of the 7th Age]

That was fast! Let's see....

What was the only clear memory of his father that JRRT retained?

[Bêthberry]

If I am correct, Child, it is a poignant memory of departure, loss, of the way words substitute for real experience.

Tolkien's mother undertook a journey, when her eldest son was about three or four, to England, for the sake of his health. Tolkien remembered seeing his father paint his name on the lid of a trunk as preparation for that journey.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Mistress Bethberry,

Just so! The floor is yours.

~Child

[Bêthberry]

Thank you, Mother Cami.

Well, here's a topic less literary and more pecuniary, although perhaps a bit obscure. Still, I think, it tells us something about the man.

Tolkien refused his University pension. Why, or, what did he do instead?
*dances off on that floor... in the best imitation of Tom*

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Obscure indeed - I've been searching in both the biography and the letters, unsuccessfully so far. Did it have something to do with the Merton fellowship? Some vague memory lurks at the back of my mind... Or was it because of his book earnings, which already put his taxes at a high level?

[Bêthberry]

Oh dear! I had hoped not to be that obscure. Where is Squatter and his great familliarity with the Letters?

The answer can be found in a letter in which Tolkien urges someone to accept a gift he sent in the form of a cheque. The letter would, of course, have been written after he retired from Oxford.

In this letter, Tolkien also talks about the progress of a certain book of poems, which was being illustrated by someone whose work he greatly admired.

[Son of Númenor]

"I receive as a septuagenarian a retirement pension, of which I feel it proper to give away at least what the Tax collectors leave in my hands (a National one, I mean: I refused the University pension, and took the lump sum and invested it in a trust managed by my bank) (Letters - 238)."*dances off on that floor... in the best imitation of Tom*Heheh. That hint was a bit subtle. ;)

[Bêthberry]

As subtle as "derry dol", my good Númenor. :D

You have invested your time in the Letters as wisely as Tolkien invested his pension. Pray, give us a fair rate of return on a surety of your own, and see what interest it gathers. :smokin:

[Son of Númenor]

What exactly did J.R.R. Tolkien feel was his philological colleagues' reaction to his writing & publishing The Lord of the Rings?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

He said that they told him: Now we know what you have been doing all these years! Why the edition of this, and the commentary on that, and the grammars and glossaries, have all remained "promised" but unfinished. You have had your fun and you must now do some work.

[Son of Númenor]

The last sentence sounds just like my parents. :rolleyes:

The floor is yours, Madame Estelyn. :smokin:

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Tolkien was delighted to receive a letter from someone who chanced to have the same name as one of his characters. Who was it?

[The Saucepan Man]

Erm, off the top of my head, it was Sam Gamgee, wasn't it?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

If the top of your head suffices for this question, what could the whole head accomplish?! ;) You have both the correct answer and the floor, Saucy.

[The Saucepan Man]

Thanks Esty. :)

The whole head would have been able to look it up if the book had been in the possession of the hands. Other than that, it would have been pretty useless. ;)

Name at least two film stars that Tolkien met. (I am aware of only two, but there may have been more, so a bonus point for every additional film star named over and above two.)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm going to venture a guess at one name, since I wasn't able to find any information in the biography. (None of the names in the index looked like a familiar film star name to me.) However, I do remember hearing that Christopher Lee once met Tolkien, so I assume he's one of the stars you mean. Can you give a clue as to where I can search for another one?

[The Saucepan Man]

Christopher Lee was one of the film stars I had in mind, so you are halfway there. :)

The other one is mentioned in one of the Letters ...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sorry, but a complete reading of the index of 'Letters' hasn't helped me either - I give up! Unless you think someone else will give it a try before the 10 days are up, you can solve it and pose a new one...

[The Saucepan Man]

Try Letter #267 ...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

OK, thanks to that help, I found the name - it was Ava Gardner (and yes, I could have seen it in the index but didn't...). Interesting that she has a name so similar to Sam's family name later on!

In re-reading that particular letter I came across some amusing sentences: I am neither disturbed (nor surprised) at the limitations of my 'fame'. There are lots of people in Oxford who have never heard of me, let alone my books. But I can repay them with equal ignorance: neither wilful nor contemptuous, simply accidental.

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, that one amused me too. It's comments like that which really bring the man to life in one's mind when reading his Letters.

You are of course correct, Estelyn. :) Please carry on.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Traditionally, the Tolkien family manufactured which product? Manufactured Expressly for Extreme Climates was inscribed on the lid of one...

This is of personal interest to me - I wish I had an opportunity to try one of them!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

They used to make pianos, although they were long out of that business by the time JRRT arrived on the scene.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's right, Squatter; I wonder if any Tolkien pianos still exist? In playable condition, even?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Which biographer of Tolkien held an academic position vacated by his subject, and where?

[Bêthberry]

Would that be Thomas A. Shippey, author of The Road to Middle Earth and JRR Tolkien: Author of the Century, who not only taught Old English at Oxford but who also held the Chair of English Language and Medieval Literature at Leeds University?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It certainly would. Bêthberry.

[Bêthberry]

Most of us are aware of Tolkien's ground-breaking essay Beowulf: the Monsters and the Critics. What other essay of his is required reading for students of fourteenth century English?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Would that be On Translating Beowulf?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Beowulf is older than that, Esty. Eighth century or thereabouts.

It's Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2458#post43003); a published form of his 1953 W.P. Ker memorial lecture at the University of Glasgow.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

oops! Live and learn, as my old Gaffer says. (...or, that's what you get for guessing...)

[Bêthberry]

I am aware of Tolkien's and Gordon's translation of Sir Gawain and the Green Knightwhich Tolkien humorously disparaged to his students, but I was not thinking of the Ker article, Squatter (which I cannot find referenced in Appendix C of the Carpenter biography, although my answer is). Try again, if you would.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Could it be Gawain, Pearl and Sir Orfeo, his translations of those three fourteenth-century poems?

[Bêthberry]

Alas, no, Squatter. As I suggested, some other fourteenth century author, if we can take Carpenter at his word.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The most likely candidate that I can see is 'Chaucer as a Philologist: The Reeve's Tale', Transactions of the Philological Society (1934)

[Bêthberry]

Indeed, the very one which Carpenter claims is still required reading for students of fourteenth century Engish dialects. And now, Squatter.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Which useful honorary position did Tolkien hold from 1972 until his death?

[Son of Númenor]

In 1972, Tolkien received an honorary doctorate from Oxford, and was in the same year dubbed a Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire by the Queen of England.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Those were great honours, to be sure, but were they useful? I think his honorary resident Fellowship in Merton College was of more practical worth to Tolkien, since it allowed him rooms in a college house, with a scout and his wife to look after him. He was also entitled to free lunches and dinners in the college.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Estelyn's right: the honorary fellowship at Merton was the most useful of those awards, and for the reasons given.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I don't think we've had this question on the thread yet: Name the members of the T.C.B.S.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

That would be Robert Q Gilson, Christopher Wiseman, Geoffrey B Smith and JRR Tolkien himself of course.

[Bêthberry]

Wasn't davem also a member? :D ;)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Mariska has it right! Bb, I'm not quite sure - perhaps you have an obscure 'Letters' reference for that name? ;)

[Mariska Greenleaf]

An easy one, but I'm not that inspired today...
Name two more school clubs that Tolkien founded.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Not that easy - it took a bit of research! I hope these are the two you mean:

the Apolausticks ('those devoted to self-indulgence') - started as a feshman at Oxford There were papers, discussions, and debates, and there were also large and extravagant dinners.

the Viking Club - founded together with E. V. Gordon at Leeds University ...which met to drink large quantities of beer, read sagas, and sing comic songs. Some of the verses the two men wrote were later published privately as Songs for the Philologists - wouldn't it be fun to read them?!

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Those were the ones I had in mind, Estelyn!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Which two women were responsible for getting Tolkien to finish writing The Hobbit in order to have it published?

[Lindir]

Was it Mrs. Tolkien and Mrs. Unwin? :confused: Oh, I dunno :rolleyes:

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Nice guess, Lindir, but it doesn't appear that those two ladies had that profound an effect on their respective husbands! :D I'm sorry, but finding this answer will take some researching in the biography.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Elaine Griffiths, a friend and former pupil of Tolkien's and Susan Dagnall from the staff of George Allen and Unwin.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Right, Squatter, and we should be very thankful that they were friends, had the right connections, and were interested in Tolkien's story!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Which item of statuary did Tolkien often employ as a hat stand?

[Son of Númenor]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that Professor Tolkien was wont to hang his cap on a replica of the Statue of David.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Good guess, but you want someone less biblical. The statue's in a place where Tolkien often had business.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I remember reading this tidbit, but haven't located it in the chapters of the biography that I've paged through. It seems to me that it was in a library, at one of the colleges. Can you give a clue that will help narrow down the search a bit?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

This concerns the placement of Tolkien's own bust.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ah, I finally found it, in Letter 288 - JRRT hung his hat on the Tsar of Russia's bust! I wonder if his own, in the Oxford English Faculty Library, is used similarly today?!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Hardly anyone wears hats any more, so probably not. Maybe one day I'll do it, in revenge for the Czar's dignity.

Your turn, Estelyn.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

In which seaside town did the Tolkien family spend a holiday that inspired one of his children's stories?

[The Saucepan Man]

... but was it the charming resort of Sidmouth?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Nice guess, Saucy, but unfortunately not the correct answer...

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Was it the seaside town of Filey then?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's the one, Mariska! Family events there prompted him to invent the story of Roverandom.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Edith had to sacrifice a lot to be Tolkien's wife, and life wasn't always that easy for her.
What did Tolkien call her, and how was she called by the wives of other Oxford professors?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ronald Tolkien called Edith "little one". I could not find a particular nickname that the Oxford wives gave her, though Carpenter's biography does mention that they said that "Mr Tolkien's wife did not call". That refers to the custom of calling = visiting each other, with the leaving of cards in expectation of a return visit.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

That was exactly what I was thinking of. Your turn, Estelyn! :)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Which of Tolkien's children was born while he was away during WWI?

[Bêthberry]

That would be Tolkien's eldest child, John, born November 1917 and who now rests in the Wolvercote cemetary near JRR and Edith, if I am remembering correctly Squatter's Easter report of his second visit to the cemetary.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Correct, Bêthberry! Next one's yours...

[Bêthberry]

*catches the ball and throws it out again*

We are all aware of how much Tolkien loved language. Names were particularly important to him, not only their derivation but the giving of names as well.

What name did Tolkien give to his first car? And how did he drive it?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

What name did Tolkien give to his first car?

Bob?

And how did he drive it?

While wearing a false moustache?

(I don't think I'm going to be very good at this game. . .)

[Bêthberry]

"Bob" is a very fine name, Fordim, one that I particuarly like, but unfortunately--or fortunately, as the case may be--Tolkien did not share my enthusiasm for Bob.

And, no, Tolkien was not given to imitating Hercule Poirot.

Nevertheless, welcome to the thread, Fordim!

*throws the ball out again.*

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Tolkien named the car "Jo", because of the first two signs on the license plate.
But how did he drove it??? Maybe with great care? Wearing a Panama hat? While smoking his pipe? I'm clueless on that one... :rolleyes:

[Bêthberry]

Yes indeed the ignoble beast was named 'Jo.' And that being the main question, why, I shall answer the rest myself, seeing as Squatter is not here to fulminate upon vehicles of the combustible engine kind.

Carpenter claimed that 'Jo' knocked down part of a dry-stone wall on a trip to visit Hilary Tolkien. Edith apparently refused to ride in Jo after that.

But the report I found the most illuminating was Carpenter's claim that, in order to make his way through busy main streets and onto side streets in Oxford, Tolkien would plough into the intersection crying heroicly to Jo, "Charge 'em and they scatter!"

Rather Rohirric of him, don't you think? Oxfordians should perhaps be thankful he decided to give up ownership of automobiles.

The driver's seat is now yours, Mariska Greenleaf.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Thank you, BB!

What title did Tolkien himself prefer instead of "The return of the King", which according to him, gave it all away?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

He preferred 'The War of the Ring' - I would agree that it would have been better.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

So do I. The floor is yours, Estelyn!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Which dialect of Middle English was Tolkien's specialty in his linguistic studies?

[Bêthberry]

I believe it was the West Midland dialect of Middle English, Estelyn.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Absolutely correct, Ms. Bêthberry! Your turn...

[Bêthberry]

We likely are all aware of Tolkien's adamant denial in the Forward that LotR is an allegory. Yet, yet, in a draft of an undated letter, Tolkien does say what LotR is an allegory of.

What is that?

[Mariska Greenleaf]

I believe Tolkien thought of it more as an allegory of the human race, saying:

.I’ve always been impressed that we’re here surviving because of the indomitable courage of quite small people against impossible odds: jungles, volcanoes, wild beasts... they struggle on, almost blindly in a way" (Interview by Dennis Gerrolt; it was first broadcast in January 1971 on BBC Radio 4 program "Now Read On…").

But I'm nog sure since you are referring to the letters. Maybe you are looking for another answer...

[Bêthberry]

You are correct, Mariska; I am looking for a different answer.

Tolkien uses the word allegory in his draft, first to deny what LotR is an allegory of. He then states what it is of.

There's two end prepositions, which I am proud of. :D

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Ending a post with a preposition is something up with which I will not put!

[Bêthberry]

A hint, a hint for an answer to come up with?

This was a letter written in the month of "shoures soote", in the mid-fifties, sent to someone who appears one time only to have been written to.

*nods to Fordim and Churchill*

[Child of the 7th Age]

.......Child comes dragging in from vacation with her copy of the Letters in one hand and Canterbury Tales in the other

Bethberry,

I'll take a shot at this. There is a letter dated 10 April 1958 (lots of nice showers then!) that was sent to C. Ouboter, a Rotterdam bookseller whom Tolkien had just visited. In this letter, Tolkien first says this:

As for 'message', I have none really, if by that is meant the conscious purpose in writing The Lord of the Rings of preaching, or of delivering myself of a vision of truth esepcially revealed to me!

But he then goes on to admit that , in rereading the book, he became "aware of the dominence of the theme of Death". He observes:

But certainly Death is not an Enemy! I said, or meant to say, that the 'message' was the hideous peril of confusing true 'immortality' with limitless serial longevity. Freedom from Time, and clinging to Time. The confusion is the work of the Enemy, and one of the chief causes of human disaster.

Is this what you had in mind?

~Child

[Bêthberry]

Child, fascinating that Tolkien mentions the theme of death in your 1958 letter, for he does as well in the letter I am thinking of.

Tolkien uses the word 'allegory' in that letter.

Welcome back!

[Child of the 7th Age]

She's got it! By Jove, she's got it. (At least I think she does....)

Try again! How about Letter 185, to Joanna de Bortadano in April 1956:

Of course my story is not an allegory of Atomic power, but of Power (exerted for Domination).

And all that time, he told us it wasn't an allegory!

Later in the same letter, he discusses the theme of Death, implicitly contradicting his initial statement:

I do not think that even Power or domination is the real centre of my story.... The real theme for me is about something much more permanent and difficult: Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the world in the hearts of a race 'doomed' to leave and seemingly lose it; the anguish in the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to leave it, until its whole evil-aroused story is complete.

[Bêthberry]

In the words of an ancient dialect, "Right on" Mistress Cami!

The fact that we have had some rather long discussions here about allegory and applicability had absolutely nothing to do with my chosing that letter, let me assure you. :D

Your choice now.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Thank you, Mistress Bethberry. Sorry for the delay.

In the year 1934, Tolkien published a paper that is regarded as "required reading" for anyone who wants to understand the regional variations of fourteenth-century English. What specific piece of fourteenth-century literature does this study focus on?

[Rimbaud]

Chaucer, certainly. Reeve's Tale, methinks. A rare case of a philology in-joke.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Thank you, Master Rimbaud. You are indeed fast! The thread is yours.

[Rimbaud]

Thank'ee. But eleven years earlier, what problems did JRRT discern with feline fiddle playing?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

He thought that the poem "Hey diddle diddle / The cat played a fiddle" made no sense, and that is was a fragment of a longer, now lost poem with a full narrative. He set out to 'recreate' the lost poem, and it appears in its full form when Frodo (?) sings it at the Prancing Pony.

?????????????

[Rimbaud]

Yep, 1923 saw him write The Cat and the Fiddle: A Nursery Rhyme Undone and its Scandalous Secret Unlocked, referring to its 'seeming' nonsense. If you read the piece, you'll find the dashing Professor creating a context for the work. Good work and the floor is yours, sir.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

All right. . .this will either be painfully easy or ridiculously difficult. I'm not very good at these kinds of games. But here goes:

To which Old English poem do we owe the creation of Earendil (and, subsequently, the creation of Middle-Earth)?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That was Cynewulf's Crist, a group of Anglo-Saxon religious poems.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Hmmmm. . .clearly I am an utter noob. That took you all of 8 minutes Esty! So I guess that means it's your turn.

Special bonus mark, though, if anyone can give me the specific line that sparked Tolkien's imagination and got the Elven-ball rolling.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Eala Earendel engla beorhtast
ofer middengeard monnum sended.
It's not what you know, but whether you know where to find the information, right?! I have a well-stocked bookshelf right next to my computer. And part of it is the chance of being online at the right moment - if chance it be...

Now, to find a new question - a more difficult task at times! I'll edit it into this post shortly.

--> We've probably all cringed at Tolkien's first choice of a name for Frodo - Bingo! He had a reason for using it though, one that was not an isolated case in his stories. Where did that name originate?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

All right, all right, I know when I'm licked. The bonus mark goes to Esty too. :mad: At least this time it took you 9 minutes.

(But can you give the Modern English translation of the lines? No, never mind -- like I said, I know when I'm licked. *Fordim does obeisance to Esty* I'm not worthy; I'm not worthy.)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Your wish is my command! ;) Hail Earendel brightest of angels
above the middle-earth sent unto men.

Oh, and a special thanks to Humphrey Carpenter for not only a well-written biography, but also a pretty good index... :D

[Child of the 7th Age]

--> We've probably all cringed at Tolkien's first choice of a name for Frodo - Bingo! He had a reason for using it though, one that was not an isolated case in his stories. Where did that name originate?

Esty - Wasn't Bingo the name of one of his son's toy bears? And there are other characters that took their origin this way. Tom Bombadil was orginally based on a Dutch doll that belonged to Michael Tolkien. And the dog Rover who went on adventures in Roverandum took its origin from the toy that Tolkien's young son Michael lost on the beach. In fact, the tale was written to console Michael for his loss.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

You're right, Child! As a matter of fact, according to HoME6, it was the name of a family of toy koala bears owned by his children, 'The Bingos'. We owe a great debt to the Tolkien children and their toys for his inspiration, but I am very glad that this particular name was changed!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Your turn, Child...

[Child of the 7th Age]

Who was Clyde Kilby and how did he try to help Tolkien?

Bonus Points (not required but kind of interesting): What does "contrasistency" mean?

[Child of the 7th Age]

I think many of the regulars of this thread are off on vacation. Here is a hint: try an internet search with the man's name and the term "Silmarillion". (There is also a brief reference in Carpenter, but it's actually something that goes beyond that.)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I had already worked out my answer but not had a chance to post it!

I think that Kilby (in his book Tolkien and the Silmarillion) tried to get the message out that there was more to ME than the two books published in Tolkien's life. He tried to promote the Sil to people as an important work in its own right; even the more 'important' work in terms of Tolkien's total vision.

He also spent some time at Tolkien's in the summer of '66 and I think that he did some gardening and tidying up in Tolkien's notoriously messy study! In particular, I think that he tried to help the professor get some of his Sil papers in order.

As to "contrasistency" -- it was a word coined by Tolkien himself which means being consistent "at the time of writing", by which he meant that it was more important to make sure that each work about ME was consistent within and to itself rather than trying to ensure that the whole corpus of works were in exact accord at all times.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Master Fordim,

Thank you. The floor is yours.

I find some of Kilby's reflections on Tolkien quite intriguing. His book was published before the Letters and Carpenter's study, but it is filled with many allusions to the "Catholic" underpinning of LotR, or at least how Tolkien regarde that underpinning by 1966. At the time I read it, I found it these comments very suggestive, especially since no one had put these things in print before. A year or so later, when the Letters came out, there was a lot more of this type of thing revealed.

Please do check your box for two pms. I have a slightly different angle on "contrasistency" and wanted to check with you....

~Child/Cami

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Me Bad. I could have sworn that “contrasistency” was a word of Tolkien’s own, but I was apparently wrong. Cami sent me the following via PM but I think it deserves to be posted here. It is from the Prologue to Kilby’s Tolkien and the Silmarillion:

I felt that Tolkien was like an iceberg, something to be reckoned with above water in both its brilliance and mass and yet with much more below the surface. In his presence one was aware of a single totality but equally aware at various levels of a kind of consistent inconsistency that was both native -- perhaps his genius-- and developed, almost deliberate, even enjoyed. The word, if there were one, might be "contrasistency." If my account of him is sketchy and is itself inconsistent, it has the virtue of reflecting my real impression of the man.

Blame my increasingly faulty (near-hallucinatory, as it turns out) imagination on my own definition of the term. As to the idea of being consistent “at the time of writing”…well, it’s not “constrasistency” but I’m still sure that I read that somewhere about Tolkien… Probably best to assume I got that wrong, too, however (until, that is, I can track down the source or somebody more learnéd than I does it for me *note to self: contact davem*

But on with the game!

What did Tolkien have in common with Ava Gardner? (Again, painfully easy, but I’m still reeling with shame.)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Neither had heard of the other before! Tolkien wrote to his son Michael about their meeting in Letter 267, describing the film star as "a pleasant young woman", "well but quietly dressed, easy and agreeable", with whom he got on well. Professor Robert Graves introduced them to each other, and only when JRRT was told of her fame did he realize that "the press of pressmen and storm of flash-bulbs on the steps of the Schools were not directed at Graves (and cert. not at me) but at her..." :D

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Thank you Esty for taking a few hours to get the answer this time! :p

That meeting is my single favourite anecdote about Professor Tolkien. I would give a lot to be able to go back and watch that moment unfold. The sight alone of Ava Gardner (*drool*) standing next to JRRT would be worth it! I wonder what on earth (or in Middle-Earth) they talked about??

At any event -- the floor, she is yours Estelyn.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

But what would I do with another floor, Fordim? I already have one! ;) (Several, as a matter of fact... )

New question: One of the persons closely connected with Tolkien's literary career was knighted. Who was it?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

His publisher -- Sir Stanley Unwin!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

An answer that's both fast and correct, Fordim - fitting to one who now has the fame of Frodo! Congratulations!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

All right, this is as tough a question as I am capable of. Which means it will probably take Esty all of 15 minutes to get it. *sigh*


What is the connection between the following poem and Tolkien's reputation as a writer?

Doom is dark and deeper than any sea-dingle.
Upon what man it fall
In spring, day-wishing flowers appearing,
Avalanche sliding, white snow from rock-face,
That he should leave his house,
No cloud-soft hand can hold him, restraint by women;
But ever that man goes
Through place-keepers, through forest trees,
A stranger to strangers over undried sea,
Houses for fishes, suffocating water,
Or lonely on fell as chat,
By pot-holed becks
A bird stone-haunting, an unquiet bird.

There head falls forward, fatigued at evening,
And dreams of home,
Waving from window, spread of welcome,
Kissing of wife under single sheet;
But waking sees
Bird-flocks nameless to him, through doorway voices
Of new men making another love.

Save him from hostile capture,
From sudden tiger's leap at corner;
Protect his house,
His anxious house where days are counted
From thunderbolt protect,
From gradual ruin spreading like a stain;
Converting number from vague to certain,
Bring joy, bring day of his returning,
Lucky with day approaching, with leaning dawn.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Bump

Herm Hoom Baroom, was this too obscure? Unfair? Would a hint be appropriate?

The poem itself is not by Tolkien, but by a famous contemporary of his.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Master Fordim,

I was just about to pop onto this thread and beg you for a hint. I am lost in the dark.....

~Cami

[Bêthberry]

The poem is W.H. Auden's translation of the Old English poem, The Wanderer, which Tolkien would have taught Auden. Auden studied Old English under Tolkien. I believe he said that hearing Tolkien read Beowulf in class, one heard Gandalf speaking.

Auden was regarded during his lifetime as the greatest living English poet. There is much else that can be said of the poem, but I offer this token for now in answer to Fordim's challenge.

EDIT: I have not read Auden's biography, but I found this passage on the Net from J.D. McClatchy, about Auden. Wouldn't it be intriguing if this referred to Tolkien? Does it, Fordim?

When he arrived at Oxford as an undergraduate, W. H. Auden went to see his tutor in literature, who asked the young man what he meant to do in
later life. "I am going to be a poet," Auden answered. "Ah, yes," replied
the tutor, and began a small lecture on verse exercises improving one's
prose. Auden scowled. "You don't understand at all," he interrupted. "I mean
a great poet."

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Well, Bethberry, that is a very good answer, and I shall accept it, but you missed the crucial component when you did not address the initial question:

What is the connection between the following poem and Tolkien's reputation as a writer?

The answer being, of course, that Auden was among the very first critics to write glowing reviews of The Lord of the Rings. He was also, as an interesting tidbit, the keynote speaker at the first meeting of the Tolkien Society in 1966. The text of his speech has been reprinted, but darned if I can remember the citation at the moment. It's very interesting though!

I doubt very much that the tutor spoken of in the bio was Tolkien, but let's pretend that he was, just because it would be so good!

Sidebar: one of my now-retired colleagues did his undergraduate work at Oxford where he took Tolkien's Beowulf seminar in the winter of 1955. Needless to say, I have plied him with many a drink for interesting stories of the man himself, but all I ever got was that if the students did not feel like working that day, all they had to do was ask the Professor a question about a particularly obscure Anglo-Saxon word, and he would go off on an hour long tangent about its etymology, derivatives and connections to other words in different languages. One other interesting thing is that at the time, none of the students even knew that he had published LotR that very year (!) and only one or two of them had heard that he had published "a book for children some time ago".

[Bêthberry]

As I missed the crucial component of your quiz, which you have now answered in such a grandly Tolkien manner, I rather think, Professor Hedgethistle, that the floor should still belong to you.

*bows courteously and withdraws to await Fordim's next quiz*

As it so happens, I too, had the priviledge of meeting an Old English scholar taught by Tolkien. And when he was plied with beer at a pub following his public lecture, he mischievously embarked upon a tale of how one kept two bibliographies, one to satisfy the academic requirements and one to keep track of the kinds of things which really inspired one. I always felt he was engaging in the kind of "secret vice" which Tolkien was, keeping one's own wordhoard of inspirational texts. When one's life is so seemingly dreary and mundane on the surface, one must resort to such imaginative play. And they say academics have no sense of humour.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I am sorry to have taken so long to take up the gauntlet thrown down once more by the esteemed Bethberry after my all too hasty conclusion to the last round of the game.

I said I was bad at this sort of thing.

In an attempt to justify the long wait, I have combed and wracked my books and my brain to come up with the following question:

Where did the real Sam Gamgee live?

[Bêthberry]

Well now, Professor Hedgethistle, if you keep us waiting so long again you just might find yourself collecting some--gasp!--negative reputation. ;)

But, alas and alak and welladay,
Son of Númenor asked this question,
just back here a way.

*assumes Oliver-like stance*

Some more please.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Ah my good lady Bethberry; I am glad that you did not fall afoul of my cunningly laid trick question. Of course I knew that Sono had posed the question already, I was merely testing to see if you all had been paying attention.

Yes. Quite. That was the reason.

At any rate, the real question now is:

Who were Aramund, Tarmund, Rasmund and Turcomund?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Master Fordim...

You wouldn't be referring to some of the names Tolkien suggested for someone who wanted to name a "cow" after characters in LotR. :rolleyes:

This is his response from one of the Letters...

*****************


Personally I am rather against giving strictly human and noble names to animals; and in any case Elrond and Glorfindel seem unsuitable characters, for their names which meant ‘The vault of stars’ and ‘Golden hair’ seem inapt. I recently played with the notion of using the word for bull I gave you, which introduced in the form –mund gives a fairly familiar sound (as in Edmund, Sigismund, etc.), and adding a few Elvish prefixes, producing names like Aramund (Kingly bull), Tarmund (Noble bull), Rasmund (Horned bull), Turcomund (Chief of bulls), etc. I wonder what you think of these?"

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

You are quite right Child, and I am delighted to yield the floor to somebody else (at long last).

[Child of the 7th Age]

A two-part question.... I am fond of the poem Bilbo's Last Song as you might notice from my personal title..... What did Tolkien do with this poem in the last few years of his life, and what unusual form did the "true" first edition of this work take?

[Beren87]

Hmm.. you've slightly stumped me.

The poem was given to his secretary, Joy Hill, in 1966 as a present. (There's a story around it, about a silver bracelet). So that's the first part, but I'm not sure about the second. The poem was put to music by Donald Swann, for the "The Road Goes Ever On and On 2nd collection" set. (which I own. :) ) Then it was illustrated as a poster later on. I'm not sure either of those answers are what you're looking for, though. Here's hoping someone has a better memory than me.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Beren,

You've basically got it... She found the poem between the pages of a book in Tolkien's house. He had forgotten it was there.

Just one comment .....the posters actually came before the Swann revisions. The posters were published in 1974 and the revised Swann later than that.

Glad to see you again lately.... You were close enough and the floor is yours.

~Child

[Beren87]

Ah, must be age, my memory goes with it. :p Sorry about that.

Who pointed out the relation between Tolkien's Ring and the Nibelungenlied?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ake Ohlmarks did so in his introduction to the Swedish translation of LotR; Tolkien wrote in reply to his publisher (Letter 229): Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases. I also find his closing remark very amusing, after he corrects the many wrong "facts" contained in that introduction: Why should I be made an object of fiction while still alive?

[Beren87]

Esty get is, and even the funny bit for bonus points. :)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Who recommended to Stanley Unwin that he publish Leaf by Niggle?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I'll guess.

Susan Dagnall?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sorry - nice guess, but wrong. Try again!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Bumping this in the hopes that we might get another hint. But as I recently read a thread begun by none other than our beloved Esty in which she laments 'nothing' posts, I will give this some content and take a guess at the answer to the current poser:

Mrs Unwin? ;)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sometimes wild guesses come very close, Fordim! It was a member of the family, though not Unwin's wife...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

His son? His daughter? His estranged uncle who lived in the attic? The cat?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Son is correct, Fordim - but not Rayner, who is well-known to us as his father's "assistent" for judging children's books. I'd like a name, please; hint - it can be found in the index to the Letters...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

David!

In the notes for letter #98 we find out that Sir Stanley's elder son David wrote children's stories under the name David Severn and that he had read LbN in The Dublin Review and suggested it be published in 1945.

I find this so interesting! I had always assumed that any thought of publishing LbN would have been post-Lotr.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

You got it, Fordim! Yes, that is an interesting bit of trivia, isn't it?! Now you get to find something equally interesting...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Piet Harting and the Professor ate what Fear Factor-type of food together?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That was "Maggot Soup" - a mushroom soup named after Farmer Maggot, of course. The Dutch hosts didn't know 'all the names of the English vermins', which caused some hilarity. (Letter 206)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Oh, "of course", is it? "Of Course"! -- too easy, obviously. Next time, Esty I'm going to come up with such a poser, you will never get it. . . :p

. . .although I suppose that does defeat the purpose somewhat. And I am going to have to get one of my own first, I suppose. . .

You are, OF COURSE, entirely correct. :)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The "of course" referred only to the source of the soup's name! Grammar, my dear Fordim, grammar and context! Now for a new question:

The intended and planned sequel to one of Tolkien's stories was not written because the war (WWII) destroyed the countryside. Which story was that?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ten days are up - does anyone want to give it a try, or shall I post a new one?

[Tevildo]

Could you possibly give us a hint where to look?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I found the reference in Carpenter's biography of Tolkien; to narrow it down, it's in the chapter "The Storyteller".

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Was it Farmer Giles?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Good for you, Tuor - you got it! Let me give the complete quote from the biography, chapter "The Storyteller": Farmer Giles did not attract much notice at the time of its publication, and it was not until the success of The Lord of the Rings had reflected upon the sales of Tolkien's other books that it reached a wide public. At one time Tolkien considered writing a sequel to it, and he sketched the plot in some detail; it was to concern Giles's son George Worming and a page-boy named Suet, as well as re-introducing Chrysophylax the dragon, and it was to be set in the same countryside as its predecessor. But by 1945 the war had scarred the Oxfordshire landscape that Tolkien lovd so much, and he wrote to his publishers: 'The sequel (to Farmer Giles) is plotted but unwritten, and likely to remain so. The heart has gone out of the Little Kingdom, and the woods and plains are aerodromes and bomb-practice targets.'
Now it's your turn!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Woo-hoo!

Okay. In what specific way did JRRT indicate a contempt for nazi anti-semitism?

[Bêthberry]

Are you referring to Tolkien's response to a request concerning a German translation of The Hobbit?

The company Rütten & Loening of Potsdam had written to Allen & Unwin asking if Tolkien was aryan. Letters 29 and 30 recount this situation. Tolkien personally would have refused to give any declaration but thought he should consider his publisher's wishes. Thus, he sent Allen & Unwin two versions of a reply. It appears that Allen & Unwin choose to send the letter where Tolkien refused to make any declaration.

The letters are from July 1938.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

In which the most significant passage on anti-semitism is this one: I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people... the main part of my descent is... purely English... I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war... I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of of pride.

(Letter #30)

There are also several personal attacks on Hitler, of which this is the longest:

There is a great deal more force (and truth) than ignorant people imagine in the 'Germanic' ideal. I was much attracted by it as an undergraduate (when Hitler was, I suppose, dabbling in paint and had not heard of it)... I suppose I know better than most what is the truth about this 'Nordic' nonsense. Anyway I have in this war a burning private grudge... against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler [for]... Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light.

(Letter #45)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Both correct. But Bethberry was first, so it looks like it's BBs turn.

[Bêthberry]

Thank you Tuor of Gondolin and welcome back Squatter (not to be confused with an old American tv show.)

Here's one for the season: What was Tolkien's earliest recollection of Christmas?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Oo, oo, I think I know this one -- didn't he remember having a variety of South African evergreen as a Christmas tree??

[Bêthberry]

You've clearly forgotten about the wildebeest with the pomegranate nose, Fordim. And the sparkly spider decorations for the tree. :p :D

Any one else?

:cool:

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I found a direct statement in Letter 56: My earliest recollection of Christmas is of a blazing hot day.

[Bêthberry]

Amazing how chat clears up a few stray possibilities. ;)

And written in a letter to Christopher, who was in South Africa at the time. Ironies!

And now Estelyn, I believe you have some work to do... :D

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Who was the U.Q.?

[Bêthberry]

The "Utter Quack" I believe. A local doctor who Tolkien once said delighted in foretelling fatal illnesses. A nickname used by the Inklings.

And, more precisely, R.E. Harvard, who was both Lewis' and Tolkien's doctor.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Close, Bb, very close - "Quack" is correct, and the real name is "Havard", which is close enough to count, but what was the "U."?

[Bêthberry]

Oh, right. "Useless" rather than "utter".

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's it! Now you get to hunt for a new one...

[Bêthberry]

How did Tolkien once describe an American accent? And what came of the incident?

[The Saucepan Man]

I found myself in a carriage occupied by an R.A.F. officer ... and a very nice young American Officer, New Englander ... After I told him that his 'accent' sounded to me like English after being wiped over with a dirty sponge, and generally suggested (falsely) to an English observer that, together with American slouch, it indicated a slovenly and ill-disciplined people - well, we got on quite friendly. We had some bad coffee in the refreshment room at Snow Hill, and parted.

Letter #58Well, I have to admit that he had a point. ;)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Foul! I cry Foul! (Possibly even Havoc. . .where are my dogs of war?)

This very letter and topic was recently discussed over in the Cellar Door thread.

Harumph, I say - Harumph.

(I woulda got this one, too *sulks*)

[The Saucepan Man]

Professor Hedgethistle! Are you daring to suggest that I would not have got it without the Cellar Door discussion? Harumph indeed to that! :mad:

;)

Actually, it's one of those passages from the Letters that really sticks in my mind. Can't think why ... :D

[Bêthberry]

Oh, SpM, you left out some of the best bits, which I shall quote here before I have to turn the thread over to you.


I stood the hot-air they let off as long as I could; but when I head the Yank burbling about 'Feudalism' and its results on English class-distinctions and social behavour, I opened a broadside. The poor boob had not, of course, the very faintest notions about 'Feudalism', or history at all--being a chemical engineer.

I can just imagine the scene.

[Bêthberry]

I think SpM has forgotten about this thread too and not only the Musical thread. ;)

A quiz if you please, Mr. SaucepanMan.

[The Saucepan Man]

Oops. I keep losing track of which Quiz threads I'm on. Must be getting out of practice ...

Please accept my sincere apologies for the delay, together with this early Christmas present:

In what circumstances did Tolkien adopt the title of Member for Longbottom, and in what way was it appropriate to him?

Shouldn't be too difficult, I suspect.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Can you give a little clue to this one, Saucy? I have no idea where to start looking; it sounds like something that could have belonged to the time of his youth and the clubs that were begun then, but must have been after the writing of LotR.

As to the reason it would be appropriate, I assume because of his "love of the Halflings' leaf"... ;)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

*Esty pokes Saucy...

[The Saucepan Man]

I'm sorry. I had overlooked this one.

A hint? Look in the Letters.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Praise Scull and Hammond for an excellent index - praise them with great praise! I was able to find this answer without reading the Letters in their entirety. ;) Tolkien agreed to an informal association with the Tolkien Society of America and suggested that he would as an inveterate pipe smoker be happy to accept the title of Member for Longbottom...

[The Saucepan Man]

Indeed. It's one of my favourite Letters for showing Tolkien's gentle humour and, indeed, humility.

And I am surprised no one got it earlier, given that we are here a Tolkien society of sorts, albeit a truly international one. :smokin:

Have at it, Esty ...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Which hotel was the Tolkiens' home away from home, where Edith especially felt comfortable and found many friends?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

The Green Dragon!

(Had to be said.)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Edith and the Green Dragon?? :eek: Hotel - Ho-tel - not pub... ;)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The Hotel Miramar? Along the south coast of England, I believe.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's the one, Tuor! It's in Bournemouth, which is on the south coast of England, as you state. Go ahead with a new question!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Okay.

What is the significance of Maitland Street for JRRT?

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Tolkien was born in a house on that street in Bloemfontein S. Africa, I believe.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Correct. Your turn.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

What was the position JRRT accepted in 1925?

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

takers? no?

[Eruanna]

I believe that 1925 was the year that he moved to Oxford to take up the position of Professor of Anglo-Saxon and Fellow of Pembroke College.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Indeed, but the professorship he accepted was a specific one, with a specific name...

[Eruanna]

He accepted the post of Rawlingson Professor of Anglo-Saxon.
Apologies for not being more specific in my original answer, I've been away from the 'Downs for quite a while :rolleyes:

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

It's Rawlinson and Bosworth, technically. But since you're so close you may go, Eruanna.

It is good to see you around... I haven't been re-haunting the downs all that long myself, so I can't tell who's been here all along and who hasn't. ;)

[Eruanna]

Good to be back isn't it? :)

I've had a hard time coming up with a question not previously asked, but here goes:

In 1992, The Tolkien Society and The Mythopoeic Society decided to celebrate the centenary of Professor Tolkien's birth by doing something that Samwise would undoubtedly have approved of. What did they do?

[Eruanna]

Oh dear! Have I killed the thread?
I can offer a clue if needed.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I could use a clue ;)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Wasn't that the first year of the simultaneous, world-wide toast? At something like 18h00 GMT participants from around the world hoisted their choice of libation in honour of the Professor.

It still happens every year, I think -- I've not yet partaken of the ritual, although I think that perhaps it's time the Downs makes an effort to promote it! :D

[Eruanna]

The toast sounds a very good idea, but not what I was looking for. Perhaps I should have said that the Forest Elves would also have approved.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Did they plant one or more trees?

[Eruanna]

They did, indeed :)

The Tolkien Society and the Mythopoeic Society bought two trees which were planted in the University Parks, Oxford. A memorial bench was placed nearby. The two trees are named for those other two trees. Telperion is a silver-leafed Maple and Laurelin a False Acacia.

Ask away Estelyn :)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

In which art form was Tolkien less skilled than his wife Edith? As a matter of fact, he claimed to understand little about it, though he enjoyed it.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Painting! It was painting! Was it painting?

Maybe it was singing. . .

I'm sticking with Painting! Absolutely. Painting Painting Painting.

(But maybe singing.)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

No No No. Sorry - and ain't it satisfying to be able to stump you, Fordie?! :p It was not painting or a related visual art form. (Think in general terms, not specific performing abilities...)

[Eruanna]

Like Fordim, I thought this would be singing or dancing...Tolkien loved to watch Edith dance. She also played piano if I recall correctly.
However, I seem to remember something in his biography about Edith being shy and yet a good practitioner of the art of conversation, better than him in fact... Three guesses in one post...Am I getting warmer?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

As a semi-guess, I think I read something to this effect in the HC biography, was it the theater (theatre :) )?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Actually, I was taking Tolkien's reference in Letter #260 as the basis for this question, so the general art I meant was simply "music". Eruanna comes closest by stating that Edith played piano, so she's entitled to the win and the next question. Here's the quote: I have little musical knowledge. Though I come of a musical family, owing to defects of education and opportunity as an orphan, such music as was in me was submerged (until I married a musician), or transformed into linguistic terms.

[Eruanna]

I think you are being very kind to me Estelyn, thank you :)
Here's another question:

"-------------- seemed incredibly lovely, elvishly lovely--to me like a dream of Old Gondor, or Pelargir of the Numenorean Ships, before the return of the Shadow."

Which European city is Tolkien referring to?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That has to be Venice - I remember reading that in the biography.

[Eruanna]

Venice is correct :)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Which card game did JRRT enjoy, sometimes playing it instead of doing the things he really wanted to accomplish?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Patience. Apparently he invented some new versions, which is good news for lovers of Solitaire even if it did hinder progress on the Silmarillion

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Absolutely right, Squatter, and a delight to have you on the thread and on the forum! Pray proceed with a new one.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Why thank you, Estelyn. I shall endeavour to justify your enthusiasm. ;)

Which college did Tolkien first join, and which subject was he reading?

[Eruanna]

If I recall correctly, Tolkien had a scholarship to Exeter College Oxford, to study Greats (Latin and Greek).

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It was a Classics Exhibition, but that's close enough. Carry on.

[Eruanna]

Thank you, Squatter.
This is a very interesting thread!

Next question:
Mabel Tolkien and her two young sons returned to England from South Africa in 1895. What was the name of the ship they travelled in?

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

The SS Guelph, I believe.

[Eruanna]

You are correct in your belief, Sophia :)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

*Esty pokes Sophia

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

My apologies.

What was one of the two Catholic churces on Woodstock Road sometimes attended by the Tolkiens?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

St Aloysius' would be one of them; I found that information in the "Oxford Life" chapter of Carpenter's biography. I'm not sure where to find the name of the second one, so since one is all you asked for, that's all you're getting! ;)

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

St. Alyosius' was one of them.

The other was St. George's, which I found on an Oxford tourist-sites website. I'm not fortunate enough to own the biography, so I'm going from the letters and the web (which has proved reasonably accurate thusfar).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Whose baby received the name (among others) "Mister Tolkien"?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Anyone want to take a try at this question, or shall I ask a new one?

[Bêthberry]

Drop us a hint, Esty; there's a good lass. :) (My best HI imitation to date. )

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Be happy to - and a very nice imitation it is!

This person belongs to the earliest part (and place) of JRRT's life.

[Rimbaud]

During the early South Africa years, Daddy Tolkien’s servant Isaak took JRRT to show to his village.

Arthur Tolkien forgave him for this and so Isaak named his first son "Isaak Mister Tolkien Victor" after him.

Unexpectedly

~R

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Absolutely right, Rim, and nice to see you posting here again! Next one's yours...

[Rimbaud]

Ah, but at around the same time, what happened to three of the infant Tolkien's bibs?

[Bêthberry]

Now this is really digging deep into family memories. A neighbour's pet monkeys chewed up three of baby Toller's "pinafores". Is this what you mean by "bib", Mr. Ribbet?