Man behind the Mythology

[Annunfuiniel]

We have a trivia for every book and for the movies and even one concerning us B-Ders... But what about the dear Professor himself? Have we totally forgotten the one who has made this all possible?

So, the idea of this quiz is to ask trivia questions about JRR Tolkien, about his entire life before, during and after writing such works as the Hobbit and the LOTR. Preferably the questions should somehow be related to his writings and to the creation of the mythology, ie. "What occasion led to the creation of 'Mr. Bliss'?" is a (somewhat) better question than "When was Tolkien born?". Possible sources would be Tolkien biographies, the Letters, commentaries in the HoME series etc.

Got it? Good! Now let's begin...

And the first question is the one I used as an example. So, when was...er, I mean what occasion led to the creation of 'Mr. Bliss'?

~Annun

*waits exitedly whether the perfect, brilliant, dazzling, kind-hearted (etc. etc.) Mr. Saucepan man will close this thread or not*

[The Saucepan Man]

*waits exitedly whether the perfect, brilliant, dazzling, kind-hearted (etc. etc.) Mr. Saucepan man will close this thread or not*

Are you suggesting that flattery alone will persuade me to allow this thread to continue? Well, it helps ... smilies/wink.gif

... but its the fact that it seems to me to be a perfectly good idea for a new and original game that really clinches it. smilies/cool.gif

Mind you, I'm more au fait with the Professor's Books than his life, so I might not participate too much myself. smilies/frown.gif

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This is a great quiz idea, Annunfuiniel! It took some searching to find the answer to your question, but skimming pages and pages of Carpenter's biography finally proved successful. Here's what he says about the background for the story of 'Mr Bliss': The purchase of a car in 1932 and Tolkien's subsequent mishaps while driving it led him to write another children's story, 'Mr Bliss'. This is the tale of a tall thin man who lives in a tall thin house, and who purchases a bright yellow automobile for five shillings, with remarkable consequences (and a number of collisions). I haven't read that story yet; is anyone familiar with it?

[Annunfuiniel]

Saucy, Esty - many thanks! smilies/smile.gif

And Estelyn: congrats for the first and first of all correct answer! You may take the lead now.

The story in question is unknown to me too but I must say that reading those lines of Carpenter's has made me rather curious...

~Annun

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Here's a bit of trivia that tickled my fancy; it's quite appropriate for this site!

What do the initials "B.S." stand for, and from what place with the same initials were they taken?

[Beren87]

"Barrovian Society" from the Barrow Store's. Tolkien and Wiseman were two of the founders of this little "society".

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's it, Beren! Your turn!

[Beren87]

Thank ye Esty. *bows*

What play was Tolkien in in his last summer at King Edwards? (Bonus points for the part he played! Not..that we have points..or anything..)

[The X Phial]

Are you referring to his role as Mrs. Malaprop in the excellent play, The Rivals?

[Beren87]

Actually, I wasn't, strangly enough. Let me go back and check to make sure, but that's not what I was thinking of.

[The X Phial]

Yes, I had the wrong year. My apologies. Still, I would love to have seen that performance.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ah, I found the answer to that one in Carpenter's biography - the play was Aristophanes' The Peace, and Tolkien played Hermes. It must have been an interesting performance! - a Greek play with the choruses set to music-hall tunes smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Beren87]

Esty has it! (And the majority of my information seems to come from Carpenter's Biography, strangly.)

Your turn!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Tolkien was the model for a character in C. S. Lewis' books - who is it?

[peony_foxburr]

Dr. Ransom, from the three "science fiction novels"(Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength) If I recall correctly from the biography, he wasn't terribly flattered, either!

What a fun idea!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ransom is correct - like Tolkien, a philologist! Your turn, peony!

[peony_foxburr]

Thank you!

What, besides their own names and their birth and death years, did Ronald and Edith Tolkien have inscribed on their gravestones?

[Beren87]

Beren and Luthien, respectively.

[peony_foxburr]

But of course you would know, Beren 87. smilies/smile.gif

For all that Tolkien moved in such a masculine-centered world from which Edith was mostly excluded, I found those inscriptions quite sweet and touching.

Your turn, then, Beren 87.

[Beren87]

Perhaps he was a romantic, at heart. smilies/smile.gif

What was Tolkien proffesor of at Oxford?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Tolkien held two chairs at Oxford during his career: the Rawlinson and Bosworth Chair of Anglo-Saxon and the Merton Chair of English Language. His tenure of these positions overlapped briefly.

[Beren87]

A detailed, and not to mention, correct answer, dear Squatter. Your go.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

What's more disturbing is that I didn't have to look those up. Someone has too much time on his hands.

One of Tolkien's characters was "a nimble plum-gatherer" but someone he knew could have been described in the same way. Name both of them and Tolkien's relationship with the real-life fruit collector.

[peony_foxburr]

I'm thinking we need a clue, Squatter. smilies/confused.gif [That icon is supposed to be "confused" but it looks like a frownie to me...]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

You won't find this one in Carpenter, nor will you find it in Tolkien's more famous fictional writings. It's best to begin in one of his short stories and work back from there. The real-life personage is someone that he knew very well.

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Squatter, I have found the character who's referred to as a plum-picker, so one half of the question could be answered. However, I cannot find any references to the person in Tolkien's real life who could compare, despite searching in both of Shippey's books, the Letters, and the Inklings biography. Just thinking about persons Tolkien knew well gave me no insight - the character doesn't sound like either C.S.Lewis or Father Francis. Can you give any clue as to where to find a reference? Perhaps the book in which the story is published has a comment, but alas, I do not have it.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Well, this is why we have libraries Estelyn. smilies/wink.gif

The answer has to do with the Vale of Evesham.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

OK, here goes an attempt:
The literary plum-gatherer is the wizard Artaxerxes in Roverandom.
The literal plum-gatherer is JRRT's brother, Hilary Tolkien, who owned and lived on a fruit farm at Evesham.
Right?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That's the answer I was looking for.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Who sculptured the bust of Tolkien that stands in the English Faculty Library at Oxford University?

[Beren87]

I believe Faith Tolkien did that bust, it's one of the centers of attention at oxonmoots.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Wow, that was a fast answer, Beren! You're right, JRRT's daughter-in-law (Christopher's wife) was the sculptor. Please proceed with another question.

[Beren87]

Ah, it was CT's wife, I couldn't find who's she was.

What did Tolkien's brother enlist as in WWI?

[Iarwain]

Was Hilary a pilot in the royal airforce, perhaps?

Iarwain

[Beren87]

I..don't think so. It's not what he enlisted as, anyway.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Hilary Tolkien signed up as a bugler, but I've been unable to track down his regiment.

For the record, the RAF didn't exist prior to April 1st 1918. It was a later generation of Tolkiens who joined the junior service.

[Beren87]

I wasn't able to find his regiment either (your saying so inspired me to check smilies/wink.gif ), so that's left up in the air. Yet, he did indeed enlist as a bugler! Squatter's go.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Whom did Tolkien thank for his kindness '...to a jobless soldier in 1918' in his valedictory address to the University of Oxford?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

He thanked William Craigie, who taught him Icelandic and was, incidentally, his predecessor as Professor of Anglo-Saxon at the University of Oxford.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The very fellow. Your turn, Estelyn.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Which persons did Tolkien think were the reason for the cooling off of his friendship with C. S. Lewis?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Fellow Inkling Charles Williams and Lewis' wife, Joy Davidman. To what extent he was justified in that opinion is a matter for speculation.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's right, Squatter - your turn!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Of what did Tolkien say "...it does seem such a mad hobby!"?

[ August 08, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[THE Ka]

Ok, i have a trivia question about tolkien...

Tolkien was the leading scholar on the subject of what two precious 14th century poems?

Hint: they were written anonymously, and about 70 miles away from oxford. they both shared the dialect of that region... smilies/wink.gif smilies/smile.gif

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Welcome to the Downs, THE Ka! You need to answer the question correctly before asking a new one - for help, read the rules thread at the top of the quiz forum page. Enjoy yourself here!

[Kaiserin]

Of what did Tolkien say "...it does seem such a mad hobby!"?

He was talking about creating languages, particularly his "nonsense fairy language" (in his own words).

[ August 14, 2003: Message edited by: Kaiserin ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

As he wrote in a letter to his future wife. Absolutely correct.

[Kaiserin]

Okay, new question:

Tolkien, being a philologist and a devout Catholic, was in the team that worked on a certain Bible translation. What Bible translation is this?

[ August 14, 2003: Message edited by: Kaiserin ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The Jerusalem Bible is the translation in which Tolkien had a part. As he wrote in his letter to the Plimmers in 1967: I was consulted on one or two points of style, and criticized some contributions of others. I was originally assigned a large amount of text to translate, but after doing some necessary preliminary work I was obliged to resign owing to the pressure of other work, and only completed 'Jonah', one of the shortest books.

[Kaiserin]

The Jerusalem Bible is absolutely right! smilies/smile.gif

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Whose collection of Fairy Books did Tolkien compare to "stalls in a rummage-sale"?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Andrew Lang's
Andrew Lang's Fairy Books are not, perhaps, lumber-rooms. They are more like stalls in a rummage-sale. Someone with a duster and a fair eye for things that retain some value has been round the attics and box-rooms.From On Fairy-Stories (Andrew Lang lecture to the University of St. Andrews - 8 March 1939)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Quite right, Squatter - you have the floor for the next question.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

To which publication did Tolkien write satirically suggesting that the name of Oxford be changed to Doncaster in February 1945?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

He wrote to the "Catholic Herald"! smilies/biggrin.gif One of its correspondents got the etymology of Coventry wrong, which annoyed him so much that he made a sarcastic reply. However, he assumed that ...he's probably too stupid to see even that mild quip.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It was indeed the Catholic Herald. 'Coventry' derived from 'convent' indeed! Preposterous!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Here's a new question: When and where was Tolkien's last photograph taken?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It was taken on the 9th August 1973 in the Botanic Gardens in Oxford. Tolkien is pictured beside his favourite tree, a Pinus Nigra (see H. Carpenter: JRR Tolkien - A Biography).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Absolutely right, Sir Squatter - I had just read LotR some months earlier... Pray proceed!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Tolkien changed degrees after his first year at Oxford. What was his original course of study and to which subject did he convert later?

[ August 20, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Beren87]

More of a guess than anything, but I remember something about Classics to English Lang.?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Well, he actually joined the Honour School of English, which included both language and literature; but only an incurable pedant wouldn't let you have that one. Your turn.

[ August 25, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[HerenIstarion]

Well, habitually I do not post to express mere approval, so I expect this one to stand during oncoming centuries as a monument and great sample of "what H-I was not usually involved into". But, since I can not stand the temptation this one time and would be glad to say:

<font color="red">Great Idea, this, Annunfuiniel smilies/biggrin.gif

*H-I expects to plunge in soon

[Beren87]

Well then, this is your chance to dive right in, then, HI. smilies/wink.gif

Which of Sinclair Lewis' books played an influence on the word "Hobbit"?

That's an oddly structured sentence, but I believe you get the point.

[Turambar]

Babbit, presumably.

[Kaiserin]

It's been ten days... I hope nobody minds if I post a new question.

"Taruithorn" is Tolkien's elvish word for what?

[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Kaiserin ]

[Rimbaud]

Oxford.

[Kaiserin]

You are right, of course smilies/smile.gif

[Rimbaud]

And while he is there it is dangerous for him to ask too many questions, lest the gate should be shut and the keys be lost.

Of what speaks the Professor, and where would one find this snippet?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

In Tolkien's lecture On Fairy-Stories. He is talking about the realm of Faerie.

[Rimbaud]

Spot on, chap.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

What did Tolkien describe as "rationally nonsense, not to mention theologically blasphemous"?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I'm bumping this thread up with a clue: this has to do with one of Tolkien's friends.

[The X Phial]

The clue was helpful. Tolkien was referring to the concept of "Miserific Vision" as conceived by C.S. Lewis.

From letter 291 And of course the 'Miserific Vision' is rationally nonsense, not to say theologically blasphemous.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That's the answer I was looking for. Like Beowulf, you have the floor. smilies/wink.gif

[The X Phial]

Cheers, dearest legal-tenant-by-possession.

Tolkien adjudicated a bet over the proper pronounciation of a poet's name. Which poet and what is the pronounciation Tolkien agreed with?

[Bêthberry]

Are you referring, XPhial, to Letter # 61, dated 18 April 1944, where Tolkien complains that he wasted time answering a letter from the Eighth Army, being asked to settle a wager on "how to pronounce the name of the poet Cowper. His full reply is as follows:

Deeming it below the dignity of a 'Regius prof' to adjudicate on Big Money, I sent as Delphic an oracular reply as I could, giving the adjt. a good deal more fact, I expect, than he wanted. Not of course that there is any doubt that the poet called himself Cooper (of which his name is merely the older spelling): oup, owp spells oop in English: there are no aups (in Latin value) so stoup, group, soup and formerly also droup, stoup (verb), troup, coup(er), whouping-cough, loup etc. (not to mention roum, toumb).

P. 72 in my 1995 paperback HarperCollins edition.

*curtsies*

[ September 14, 2003: Message edited by: Bêthberry ]

[The X Phial]

I am, in fact, referring to that very letter and poet. We await your question Miss Berrydol.

[Bêthberry]

Interesting what flotsam and jetsam one files away, X. I had remembered that bit about Cowper, wondering if the soldiers of the Eighth Army had in fact been thinking of his The Castaway (http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem560.html) even while they wagered over the more insignificant question of pronounciation.

But as to my question, of what was Tolkien speaking when he said, Many people dislike being arrested? And where did he make his remark?

[Turambar]

*bump*

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Tolkien was referring to a common dislike of what he calls "...meddling with the Primary World, or such small glimpses of it as are familiar to them." He was describing a dislike of fantastic literature on the basis of its failure faithfully to portray the world in which we live: the very "arresting strangeness" which he regarded as a natural advantage of the form.

As one might expect, he says this in his lecture and essay On Fairy-Stories (1939), in which he explores various perceptions of 'fantasy' and challenges the common view that fairy-stories are products of escapism.

[ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Bêthberry]

Right you are, Old Boy."On Fairie Tales" it is. People dislike fantasy, presuming it to be mere dreaming and hallucination which lack the Art and control of fantasy. In other words, they don't like something which challenges their familiar, preconceived little worlds.

You have the floor. Or the thread. Or the challege. As it may be.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I take up your cast gage with pleasure, Bethberry. How did 'Beren' meet 'Luthien'?

[Bêthberry]

They met, if Carpenter has his facts right, Squatter, at a sort of rooming house for orphans. 37 Duchess Road, Birmingham.

Tolkien's guardian, Father Francis, believed he and his brother were not happy with his Aunt B, and so Father Francis found them lodgings with Mrs. Faulkner, who gave musical soirees which some of the Fathers attended.

On the first floor, beneath the two boys' bedroom, lodged a pretty young orphan girl with some talent at the piano. Edith Bratt.

He was sixteen, she was nineteen. What more need be said?

Bêthberry

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That's what I was looking for. Your turn.

[Bêthberry]

Thank-you, Squatter.

Tolkien had a very specific sense of Magic. What was it? (And, to be fair, I should say I am thinking particularly of the Letters here.)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

In his draft of a letter to Naomi Mitchison (Nr. 155), Tolkien says A difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. He adds that magic as used by Gandalf is artistic, not intended to deceive. Is that what you have in mind?

[Bêthberry]

Good digging! That's not the specific letter I had in mind, but it will do. Here is the passage I was thinking of, from Letter 131 to Milton Waldman (p. 146 in my paperback edition):

I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to reonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word [ie magic] both for the devices and operations of the Enemy,and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation. The 'Elves' are 'immortal' , at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death. The Enemy in successive forms is always 'naturally' concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines; but the problem: that this freightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root, the desire to benefit the world and others--speedily and according to the benefactor's own plans--is a recurrent motive.

And so, Ms Telcontar, I pass the challenge on to you.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Here's a rather straightforward question: Which of Tolkien's children were able to be with him when he died?

[Telchar]

My memory might fail me, but I think it was his daughter, Pricilla Anne...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's half of the right answer, Telchar...

[Telchar]

OK - it Might be that someone else can have the other half of the answer because I seriously do not have a clue... smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ November 02, 2003: Message edited by: Telchar ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ah, nice try, Telch! Unfortunately not Michael - Carpenter writes in the biography: It so happened that Michael was on holiday in Switzerland and ______ in France... Two more guesses - good thing Tolkien had only four children, eh?! smilies/wink.gif

[Child of the 7th Age]

Michael was on holiday in Switzerland and Christopher in France....but John and Priscilla were able to come down to Bournemouth to be with him. The first reports were optomistic but then a chest infection developed and he died shortly after. smilies/frown.gif

(I feel a bit guilty trailing in with this at the tail end after Telchar got the first half right......!)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

All's fair in love and quiz, Child - and welcome to the thread! You're right, of course - we look forward to your question.

[Child of the 7th Age]

How about this?

Tolkien began the translation of three medieval poems; part of his work went back as early as the 1920s. These poems were published posthumously in 1975, although Tolkien himself felt they had never been completed to his own satisfaction.

What are the names of the three poems?

[Bêthberry]

Child,

Would you be referring to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Pearl, and Sir Orfeo?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Bethberry,

Whoa! You're fast. That took exactly three minutes! Is that a record?

(Maybe we should give out "prizes".)

You have the floor now....

Child

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

That's not a record smilies/smile.gif

[Bêthberry]

Thank you,Child. I just happened to be online when you posted your challenge, and, well, I do love literature. smilies/biggrin.gif

Now, for the next one:

What position or job did Tolkien hold in the 11th Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers, "B" company?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

He was commissioned as a second lieutenant.

[Bêthberry]

Ah, hmm. Esty, I wasn't thinking so much of his rank as what it was he did. Want to try again?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

He was the battalion signalling officer. Is that what you're looking for?

Carpenter says:
...the prospect of dealing with words, messages, and codes was more appealing than the drudgery and responsibility of commanding a platoon. So he learnt Morse code, flag and disc signalling, the transmission of messages by heliograph and lamp, the use of signal-rockets and field-telephones, and even how to handle carrier pigeons...

[ November 07, 2003: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

[Bêthberry]

Indeed, Ms Telcontar, that was what I had in mind. Strikes me as almost cruelly prescient that he would have that job.

Ask on, Estelyn, ask on.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Here's a nice bit of trivia I discovered - which American president's daughter wrote to Tolkien, asking him for an autograph?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Anyone care to guess this answer? I know the source isn't quite as common as Carpenter's biography, but it's not difficult - there weren't really that many US presidents with daughters during the 60's! smilies/wink.gif

[Turambar]

OK - Kennedy's daughter ?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

nope

[Turambar]

Well then, Nixon's? smilies/smile.gif

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Again, I must regretfully answer "no". Keep going! smilies/wink.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

Lyndon Johnson's daughter?

(If it's not him, there's only one left smilies/wink.gif )

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Right president - daughter's name? smilies/cool.gif

[Turambar]

Luci ?

[The Saucepan Man]

Gah, what do I know of US Presidents' daughters?! smilies/rolleyes.gif smilies/wink.gif

Thanks to google, I know that he had two daughters, so I'll go for Lucy (Luci?). smilies/tongue.gif

Edit: Double Gah! Spent too much time on Google! smilies/frown.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[ November 13, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Edit 2: Triple Gah! Wrong daughter.

Mind you, I hate to be pedantic, but the original question was:

which American president's daughter wrote to Tolkien, asking him for an autograph?

requiring that the President, rather than his daughter be identified. smilies/tongue.gif smilies/wink.gif

[ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Both wrong - sorry, but even guessing has to produce the correct answer! smilies/tongue.gif

[Beren87]

His other daugher, Ly(i)nda.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's the one, Beren. Daniel Grotta-Kurska writes in his biography J.R.R.Tolkien, Architect of Middle Earth about the flood of mail that was sent to Tolkien: The letters came from such diverse places as the White House (President Johnson's daughter Lynda Bird asking for an autograph), royalty, composers wishing to set Tolkien's works to music, blind octogenerians, and prisoners.

[Beren87]

Ah.

What did Tolkien receive from the Queen in '72?

[Mariska Greenleaf]

He recieved the title CBE (= commander of the Order of the British Empire)

[Beren87]

You've got it.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

'It was like discovering a wine-cellar filled with bottles of amazing wine of a kind and flavor never tasted before. It quite intoxicated me.'

What is Tolkien talking about?

[The Saucepan Man]

He was talking about the Finnish language, which he taught himself in order to read the Kalevala.

(Either that or the Kalevala itself - it's not entirely clear from the reference that I found. But I think that it's the language.)

[ November 17, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Mariska Greenleaf]

It took you 4 full minutes to figure it out???
smilies/biggrin.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, I was quicker with the Google button this time. smilies/wink.gif

OK, an easy one I am afraid, but here we go nevertheless.

What was the alternative name for the Inklings' watering hole?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The 'Eagle and Child' is also known as 'Bird and Baby', which I find particularly funny!! smilies/biggrin.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, it tickled me too Esty. You are, of course correct. smilies/smile.gif

I saw in the paper recently that it was up for sale. I was sorely tempted to change my name to Barliman Butterbur and put in an offer. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Tolkien liked good plain English food. Which cooking did he detest?

[Telchar]

French cuisine!

[Mariska Greenleaf]

French cooking.

Ai ai, too late!
smilies/wink.gif

[ November 21, 2003: Message edited by: Mariska Greenleaf ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Both are correct, and Telchar was first - your turn!

[Telchar]

During the time of our life we all meet women, some beautiful, intelligent, and wonderful - others charming, anmusing .... I could go on and on. Our dear professor once got in contact with a woman which he refered to with these words:
Why is such a woman let loose? I begin to feel that I am shut up in a madhouse.

Who was he talking about?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've been hunting for this one but haven't found it so far. Will you give us a clue, maybe which year or at least decade or something similarly helpful?

[Telchar]

I'll hint you Esty smilies/smile.gif

Hint: US publication of the Hobbit (Paperback)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Christopher Tolkien and Humphrey Carpenter have tastefully blanked out the woman's name in my edition of the Letters. She was a representative of Ballantine Books, with whom he had a telephone conversation regarding the cover design for their paperback edition. I think his comments are amusing enough to be worth quoting in full: Mrs. ____ [a representative of the paperback publishers] did not find time to visit me. She rang me up. I had a longish conversation; but she seemed to me impermeable. I should judge that all she wanted was that I should recant, be a good boy and react favourably. When I made the above points again, her voice rose several tones and she cried: 'But the man hadn't TIME to read the book!' (As if that settled it. A few minutes' conversation with the 'man', and a glance at the American edition's pictures should have been sufficient.) With regard to the pink bulbs she said as if to one of complete obtusity: 'they are meant to suggest a Christmas Tree'. Why is such a woman let loose? I begin to feel that I am shut up in a madhouse.

[ 8:40 PM November 27, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Telchar]

I think his comments are amusing enough to be worth quoting in full

They sure are Squatter...

And yes, her name is not known - please go on...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Right you are.

What was unusual about a copy of The Fifth Book of Thucydides belonging to Zillah Sherring?

[Telchar]

Zillah Sherring bought the book at a second hand book store. Along with alot of different inscriptions Zillah found Tolkiens name, wrote him a letter (in 1965) - JRRT in return explained that the inscriptions were Gothic - or what he thought to be tohtic in 1910 when he bought the book.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Spot on.

[Telchar]

When did JRRT begin writing LOTR? (Be as precise as you can, please)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

He began writing 66 years ago this month, in December 1937. On the 19th, he wrote to one of the editorial staff at Allen & Unwin: I have written the first chapter of a new story about Hobbits - "A long expected party". That chapter was very likely written sometime in the three days preceding that date.

[Telchar]

That chapter was very likely written sometime in the three days preceding that date.

Very good Estelyn! the 'three days preciding' is because in a letter from december 16 he claims that he hasn't started writing a sequal to The Hobbit.

You can continue smilies/smile.gif

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Of whom did Tolkien say, He was for long my only audience.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

He was referring to CS Lewis.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's right, Mariska! I don't think we Tolkien fans realize quite how much we owe to Lewis - the whole passage reads: The unpayable debt that I owe to him was not "influence" as it is ordinarily understood, but sheer encouragement. He was for long my only audience. Only from him did I ever get the idea that my "stuff" could be more than a private hobby. Your turn now...

[Mariska Greenleaf]

"We liked one another and enjoyed talking mostly in jest but we had nothing to say to one another at deeper or higher levels"

Who is the professor talking about?

[Lisa Arden]

C.S.Lewia? smilies/cool.gif

[Mariska Greenleaf]

No, that's not the one I'm looking for... smilies/wink.gif

[Telchar]

C.S. Williams, a writer, and friend of C.S. Lewis

[Mariska Greenleaf]

That's right.

[Telchar]

What did, according to the professor, provide a most admirable plea in defence of singing in one's bath?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

An extract from the Old-English Exeter Book (http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/library/oe/exeter.html) Gnomics that Christopher Tolkien had quoted in the letter to which he was replying. Sadly, my edition of the letters doesn't give the line, although perhaps it would suggest itself to one better read in medieval manuscripts. This little gem can be found in Letter #90 (24th November, 1944).

[Telchar]

YEP!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Tavrobel and Kortirion in The Book of Lost Tales were both places that played a part in Tolkien's life. What are their real names, where are they and why was Tavrobel in particular significant to Tolkien?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:45 AM December 15, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

It’s high time to answer this question – nice to have more leisure for the enjoyable details after the holidays! I will give the quotes from BoLT, taken from Christopher Tolkien’s comments on The Cottage of Lost Play: Kortirion … would become in after days Warwick (and the elements Kor- and War- were etymologically connected);
…Tavrobel … would afterwards be the Staffordshire village of Great Haywood.

From 1913 until her [Edith Bratt’s] marriage in March 1916 she lived in Warwick and my father visited her there from Oxford; after their marriage she lived for a while at Great Haywood (east of Stafford), since it was near the camp where my father was stationed, and after his return from France he was at Great Haywood in the winter of 1916-17.
…the fair copy of The Cottage of Lost Play (and quite possibly the original composition of it) was actually done there.
I can’t help but think that those must have been special times of his life and places that meant a lot to him to have him memorialise them in his mythology!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Exactly. Well quoted, Esty.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

We all know, I presume, that Tolkien was born in South Africa, though he had few memories of his time there. Later in his life, there was another connection to that country. What was it?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Christopher Tolkien was stationed in South Africa with the R.A.F during the war, notably at Kroonstad and Standerton.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Righto, Squatter, and that's how chapters of the LotR in progress made their way to the land of JRRT's birth! Please continue...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Then continue I shall, hopefully without causing another hiatus.

What is the "insubstantial dream of an escapist"?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I haven't found the reference for this question, but I will venture a guess, Squatter - is it referring to the creation of languages?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I'm afraid not, Esty. It's nice to see that this thread has stopped vegetating, though.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

...or does Tolkien mean his book, LotR or perhaps the Silmarillion?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Cease this wild guesswork! He's not talking about his writing or his languages.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:47 AM January 23, 2004: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Are you willing to give a tiny clue to reward me for at least attempting? smilies/wink.gif

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I already did, two posts ago (22nd January).

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:55 AM January 23, 2004: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Mariska Greenleaf]

'The notion that motor-cars are more "alive" than, say, centaurs or dragons is curious,' he says at one point; 'that they are more "real" than, say, horses is pathetically absurd. How real, how startlingly alive, is a factory chimney compared with an elm-tree: poor obsolete thing, insubstantial dream of an escapist.'

Taken from "Tree and Leaf"(1964)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

More specifically from On Fairy-stories. The answer is, of course, an elm-tree; being a satirical reversal of claims of 'escapism'. Well remembered.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Thank you.

Give the explanation Tolkien gives to why Hobbits are small in size.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Well, one does need to have a habit of reading small print to find that answer! (...or the idea of looking through the very excellent index to Tolkien's Letters... smilies/wink.gif ) Here's what he says: They are made small (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man... mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men 'at a pinch'.

(PS - Mariska, I'm looking forward to a new 'minor works' question...)

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:12 AM February 03, 2004: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

[Mariska Greenleaf]

That's the correct answer of course.

ps: I'll post a new minor work question right away...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Which Canadian collaborated with Tolkien on several of his scholarly works and which not so serious endeavour did they begin together?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

E.V. Gordon, his collaborator in compiling an edition of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Together they began the Viking Club for undergraduates, the main activities of which appear to have been drinking beer, reading sagas and singing comic songs.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's the right person, Squatter - go ahead with a new one!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Who was 'Jo'?

[Mariska Greenleaf]

"Jo" was the first car Tolkien bought(in 1932), it was a Morris Cowley, and it was named "Jo" because the that were the first two letters of the license plate.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

You're absolutely right, Mariska. Let's have another one.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Thanks!

What is T.C.B.S., what was it's vision, and to what did it lead?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

T.C.B.S. was the Tea Club and Barrovian Society (the latter name could apply to this forum! ;) ); it was started to exchange opinions on literature and to do readings (I couldn't find a reference to a specific vision in the books I checked); and it led to a theater performance of Sheridan's The Rivals, in which JRRT played Mrs Malaprop!! Wouldn't that have been a sight?! :eek:

[Mariska Greenleaf]

You're absolutely right, Ghosted Princess!:)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Late in life Tolkien was swamped with fan mail while he wanted to finish the Silmarillion. Who became his part-time secretary and assistant and who gave that person the assignment?

[HerenIstarion]

out of the top of my head - probably Carpenter and probably Auden?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

No and no, HI - try again! Carpenter was his biographer, but not secretary, and Auden was neither.

[HerenIstarion]

hum...

I have a vague feeling I must know the answer, it just keeps haunting the cusps of my memory, but I can not get hold of it.

Neither one, you say?

Well, it must wait till I get anywhere near my bookshelf, than :)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Here's a clue for this question - maybe that will help get the search for the answer started again! The person is a woman - since Tolkien didn't have many female acquaintances, that should make it easier.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Esty,

You must mean Joy Hill. She dealt with Tolkien's fan mail, and I think she was assigned to the job by the folk at Allen & Unwin. Sometimes she came down in person to Bournemouth.

I remember her name for another reason. When Hill was putting Tolkien's library in order, she found the poem Bilbo's Last Song written in an exercise book. It had apparently been "lost". In gratitude, Tolkien presented the poem to her, with its copyright, on 3 September 1970. In 1974, after Tolkien's death, both Houghton Mifflin and Allen & Unwin printed up a poster with this poem that was printed over a picture of a river scene. These were copyrighted under Hill's name and are technically "first editions". I have one of these posters hanging in my house because I love the poem. I also have the jigsaw puzzle of this same scene that came out two years later in the U.S. (I know.....I know....I'm hopelessly "addicted".)

Sorry for that digression. Now let's hope I have the right person!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's the right answer, Child, and thanks for the additional information!! Lucky you, to have such a wonderful collectible! Do you know if that poem has been published recently enough to be found in bookstores somewhere?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Esty,

Yes, it's definitely available in bookstores. Or if you can't find it there, look on e-bay. It only costs $8-12 and the illustrations are quite nice, since they are done by Pauline Baynes.

Let's see now.....another question..... Here's one of mythic proportions.

Shopkeepers who dealt with the elderly Professor Tolkien sometimes received what surprise in their hand?

[Mariska Greenleaf]

haha, this is funny!
He surprised shopkeepers by displaying his extra set of false teeth amidst the handful of change he held out to them.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Absolutely right, Mariska! The professor must have had a strain of hobbitish blood. I can not imagine an Elf or Man doing this....

Please continue with your question.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Thanks.

Well, we do know that Tolkien was a very funny person, and didn't take himself too serious, so this is my next question:

He once participated in a swimming contest. What was so funny about that?

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Do you need a hint?
:smokin:

(Just gave one...)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Did he swim with his hat on? (I've paged through the biography, trying unsuccessfully to find a reference, so this is only a guess. I'm assuming that :smokin: was the clue...) Should that be the right answer, please do tell more about it!

[Mariska Greenleaf]

the :smokin: was indeed the clue.
Tolkien once participated in a swimming contest while wearing a Panama hat and smoking his pipe. Imagine that!

I got this from Tolkien's biography by Professor Ralph C. Wood.

back to you Estelyn.:)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This brief poem is admittedly not one of Tolkien's most brilliant works ;) ; but it was his reaction to criticism on what?

___ ____ __ ___ _____
is one of those things:
if you like you do:
if you don't, then you boo!

[Mariska Greenleaf]

I believe it's about the criticism on Lord of the Rings in general, or is it more specific?

The Lord of the Rings
is one of those things:
if you like you do:
if you don't, then you boo!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's the right answer, Mariska - your turn to post a new question.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Tolkien referred to someone as an "Olympian". Who was this person?

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Hint needed?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Yes, please - I have been thinking about this, but have no idea where to start looking...

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Ok, I must admit I made a little mistake, I don't know if it matters much, but the question should have been:

Tolkien referred to someone as "Olympian", so not "an" Olympian...

Anyway, a hint: initials: W.R., and according to Tolkien not a good lecturer.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ah, the initials did the trick - thank you! It was Walter Raleigh of whom Tolkien was speaking to G. S. Gordon; his reason for calling him 'Olympian' is quite amusing: I only really meant that he reposed gracefully on a lofty pinnacle above my criticism. (Letter 46)

[Mariska Greenleaf]

That's the guy!
Your turn again.:smokin:

[Estelyn Telcontar]

JRRT was awarded a high honour late in life - what was it?

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Do you mean the honorary doctorate at Oxford in 1972 for his work in philology?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's an honour too, but I was thinking more along the lines of national honour...

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Then you must mean the CBE he received from the Queen!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's the one I was thinking of - well done, Mariska!

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Thanks.

"May God bless you, my dear John Ronald, and may you say the things I have tried to say long after I am not there to say them, if such be my lot."

Who adressed Tolkien in this way?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

It took me awhile to figure out where to begin to look for this quote, and when I thought about how few people would have addressed him as "John Ronald" and thought similarly enough to want him to speak for them, I found the answer quite quickly. It was G. B. (Geoffrey Bache) Smith, one of the members of the T.C.B.S., in a letter written shortly before his death in WWI. It begins as follows: My chief consolation is that if I am scuppered tonight - I am off on duty in a few minutes - there will still be left a member of the great T.C.B.S. to voice what I dreamed and what we all agreed upon. For the death of one of its members cannot, I am determined, dissolve the T.C.B.S. Death can make us loathsome and helpless as individuals, but it cannot put an end to the immortal four!

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Very good.:)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Which was JRRT's first published work, and when and where was it published?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It was his poem The Battle of the Eastern Field, which was published in The King Edward's School Chronicle in March 1911.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Quite right, Squatter - do I remember rightly that it was about some ball game match? I can't find a reference to the contents right now.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Looks like Squatter is temporarily absent, so since the 10-day limit is up, I'll post another question. It would be a shame to let this good thread die an untimely death!

Which of Tolkien's sons experienced a loss that led JRRT to tell and write which story?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Anyone want to try?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Michael Tolkien lost a small toy dog on the beach while on holiday. Roverandom was written mainly to cheer him up.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Quite right, Squatter! Though the boy in the story had no name, he was called 'little boy Two', since Michael was JRRT's second son.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

In J. I. M. Stewart's A Memorial Service, a brief posthumous appearance is made by a character who appears to have been based on Tolkien. What is his name?

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Could it be Timbermill?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The author of The Magic Quest himself. Professor Timbermill it is.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

Tolkien criticised(sp) Lewis's work "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" because according to Jrr Lewis didn't develop a careful mythology as basis.
What subtitle did he give to this work of Lewis?

[Bêthberry]

Are you referring to Tolkien's comment to Roger Green?

Tolkien dismissed LWW after hearing it read with the complaint, "Nymphs and their Ways, The Love-Life of a Faun"

[Mariska Greenleaf]

That was exactly what I was looking for. ;)

[Bêthberry]

Hrum, Hroom Let me not be too hasty getting a new question up!

What did Tolkien tell Nevill Coghill about Treebeard?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

He told him that he modeled Treebeard's way of speaking on C. S. Lewis' booming voice. Hm, hoom!

[Bêthberry]

Ent that the truth Estelyn.

Your go.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Which two characters in Tolkien's works are quite autobiographical, telling us about his thoughts and feelings more directly than any other characters?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I didn't think that this question was so difficult - do you want a minor hint?

[Bêthberry]

Oh, Estelyn, I have a Niggling reply in mind but I had a Major feeling that I should stand back and let others try their hand.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Well, instead of an answer, Bêthberry gave another hint - anyone want to try?

[Bêthberry]

Well, Esty, I guess I was simply too cryptic. ;)

Leaf by Niggle I would say, and Smith of Wootton Major, to be more plain about it. :)


Edit: shame about the Sniggle. Must have been thinking of Nmith.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Right answer, Bêthberry - nothing to niggle at! Your turn...

[Bêthberry]

Right, then, Estelyn, here's my go at it.

Tolkien praised one of his illustrators very highly. He said that the pictures "are more than illustrations; they are a collateral theme."

Of whom was he speaking?

[Son of Númenor]

Might it be Pauline Baynes?

[Bêthberry]

It might indeed, Son of Númenor. Your go. And welcome to this thread. :smokin:

[Son of Númenor]

Which Lord of the Rings character's name was not-so-subtly derived from the name of one of J.R.R. Tolkien's real-life neighbours in Sarehole?

[Bêthberry]

Well now, there was apparently an old farmer who had chased young Ronald for picking mushrooms à la Farmer Maggot, but I think he has come down to us known only by the moniker of "the Black Orgre." And the miller's son was nicknamed "The White Ogre" but again, we lack an historical name.

Yet there was a Birmingham man who invented a surgical bandaid (plaster?) which became known as "gamgee-tissue", derived from his name, Dr. Gamgee. In the Warwickshire dialect 'gamgee' meant cotton wool. And that's how he came to be named, our Sam, I am suggesting.

[Son of Númenor]

It seems, sadly, that I have been misinformed. I was operating under the impression that Mr. Samson Gamgee was a neighbor of J.R.R. Tolkien's in Sarehole. In fact, Tolkien was unaware of Mr. Gamgee at the time that The Lord of the Rings was published. It was only after the book was published that Mr. Gamgee, a local Birmingham man and notable inventor as you said Bêth, became known to Tolkien.

Gamgee is quite a different matter. In my early days gamgee was the word we used for what is/was more generally called 'cotton-wool'.....Recently in the English Place Names Society volumes on Gloucestershire (vol. iii) I came across forms that could conceivably explain the curious Gamgee as a variant of the not uncommon surname Gamage (Gammage, Gammidge). This name is ultimately derived from a surname de Gamaches....but early records of the forms of this name in England, as Gamages, de Gamagis, de Gemegis, might well provide a variant Gamagi > Gamgee.

Your reference to Samson Gamgee is thus very interesting. Since he is mentioned in a book on Birmingham Jewry, I wonder if this family was also Jewish. In which case the origin of the name might be quite different. Not that a name of French or Francized form is impossible for a Jewish surname, especially if it is one long established in England. We now associate Jewish names largely with German, and with a colloquial Yiddish that is predominantly German in origin.* But the lingua franca of mediaeval Jewry was (I was told by Cecil Roth, a friend of mine) of French or mixed French-Provencal character. (Letters, 324) Samwise Gamgee's name was not a derivation of Samson Gamgee's. Therefore my initial question was flawed and, since Bêth provided the factually accurate answer, I yield the floor. ;)

Apologies,
Númenor

[Bêthberry]

Such are the conflations of memory and art, Son of Númenor, wherein we make our meaning. No great error, I would think. As Tolkien himself said, what if a Mr. S. Gollem should appear on his doorstep!

Which brings me to my question now. In honour of Mother's Day (at least in North America, although not in England), let me ask this.

In what way was Tolkien's engagement to Edith Bratt similar to Mabel Suffield's engagement to Arthur Tolkien?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Both couples had to wait three years to be officially engaged, since their respective parents/guardian thought them too young for that commitment.

[Bêthberry]

Quite right, Esty. A bit fascinating, isn't it? And now, for your next question ...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Who wrote this brief book report on The Hobbit and what happened as a result? Bilbo Baggins was a hobbit who lived in his hobbit-hole and never went for adventures, at last Gandalf the wizard and his dwarves perswaded [sic] him to go. He had a very exciting time fighting goblins and wargs, at last they got to the lonley [sic] mountain; Smaug, the dragon who gawreds [sic] it is killed and after a terrific battle with the goblins he returned home - rich! This book, with the help of maps, does not need any illustrations it is good and should appeal to all children between the ages of 5 and 9.

(Bb, that is an interesting comparison - I'd never noticed it before!)

[The Saucepan Man]

At a guess, I'd say that the review was by Stanley Unwin's son Rayner, and that the Hobbit was published by Unwin in consequence of it.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Great guess, Saucy! You're right, of course - as a matter of fact, he even got paid one shilling for that report. Wouldn't we like to get paid for reading good books!

You have the floor...

[The Saucepan Man]

Most kind, my Lady. :)

Which London publisher narrowly missed the opportunity of publishing Lord of the Rings, how did they come to have that opportunity, and why were they deprived of it?

[Olorin_TLA]

Collins, because Allen & Unwin couldn't publish the Silmarillion and LotR in one; Collins said they were interested in doing so, but it never happened, and so A&U published in the end.

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, Allen & Unwin were reluctant to publish the Silm as well as LotR and Collins expressed an interest in publishing both. Then they had cold feet and Tolkien lost patience with them, returning to Allen & Unwin to have LotR published on the basis that one was better than none.

So, the thread is your Olorin_TLA. :)

[Olorin_TLA]

Kind of tragic one...:(

When CS Lewis passed away, how did Tolkien descibe it, compared to other misfortunes in his life?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Olorin_TLA,

Do you mean this quote from his letter to his daughter Priscilla concerning th death of Lewis?

"So far I have felt the normal feelings of a man of my age---like an old tree that is losingall its leaves one by one; this feels like an axe-blow near the roots."

~Child