Verbal Reasoning!

[The Might]

No, it's an event

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Could it have something to do with the fact that the ones who were to rule after the latter ones (Rómendacil's son Valacar and Éomer who was in reign after Théoden) both wedded someone from other folk, though I don't see how it relates to Eorl&Meneldil. With Eorl, it could be that Théoden's successor married someone of the folk whom Eorl once helped, but I fail to see such a connection between Meneldil&Rómendacil.

[The Might]

No, no, not this
I suggest concentrating on Eorl/Theoden
Here it is more obvious, the others have this in common as well however

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

From the start I thought about the covenant of Eorl&Cirion fulfilled by Théoden, to this adds much the fact that even Meneldil was on Amon Anwar and was present at the time of building Elendil's tomb. However, Rómendacil II. does not have anything to do with it as far as I am aware - perhaps Rómendacil I., who wrote some edict concerning the "sacred place", but this does not have anything in common with fulfiling anything or not...

Just tell me if I am overlooking something or if I am completely wrong on this path.

[The Might]

You're wrong...
Let ,e just put it this way, it's only linked to their lives

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay pal---

what about a little hint here?

I think I read all I could about all four of them, well, maybe except all the TT&RotK about Théoden from the moment he appears, but I still can't find anything that would make them connected that way you present it.

[The Might]

Well, it's definitely linked to their lives!
Life...;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I suppose it's not such a stupid thing like that they all ruled till the day they died :p

I must be really dumb lately. First that Borondir thing, now I am really curious what the answer on this will be. "You had better go to bed, your wits are sleepy."

[The Might]

You're really close, but no...that's a bit too obvious in my opinion

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Just thinking aloud in case someone notices some of this and saves me from answering this question. :)

Three of them (Meneldil, Eorl, Théoden) came to rule when their fathers were already dead. Meneldil was "given" the rulership by his uncle, while Rómendacil also inherited the kingdom by the same sort of a jump. Théoden "did" this to Éomer. Both Meneldil and Rómendacil were supposed to be regents or stewards at first. The three of them except Théoden (if Meneldil was in the War of Last Alliance, which he probably was) also fought some important battle before they inherited the kingdom. Three of them except Meneldil died in battle. All of this are sort of "what do they have in common"-like things, though, and also it is all quite crooky (it's always one character missing or it's somewhat switched).

I also tried to make out some mathematical dependance between them, like for example if the second was always two times older or ten years older than the first when he inherited the throne, or died, or whatever, but Eorl was in general younger than Théoden and it doesn't work.

[The Might]

Sorry, but as far as I know Romendacil II (not the I) didn't die in battle
And yes, it's a hint ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ah, really, it was just Rómendacil I., I must have made a mistake. Well then... is it like that the second one died the same way as the first?

[The Might]

Yes, they died in the same way
Both Eorl and Theoden died together with their horses, while the two Gondorians both died of old age

Of course, there are many other Gondorian Kings that died this way, but it's fact that there was a certain number of kings between them that singles out Romendacil I.

I know it was a hard one, but I tried my best ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

You surely did. *dies*

...
*remembers being on the Downs and therefore being already dead, so arises*
So now...

Isildur is to Sauron
as
Thrór is to _______

[The Might]

Maybe Dain I?
Isildur got the One Ring after Sauron's death, and the same probably happened after Dain I was killed by a dragon, he received the last of the seven.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope. Is there anywhere explicitely stated that it really happened at that time? :Merisu:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This time, the missing value is actually not a name.

[The Might]

Do you mean by name no person or no own name in general?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm not sure if I understood your answer correctly, but no own name. Like, for example, it's not "Bilbo Baggins". But it is one exact individual. I think it's quite a big hint.

[The Might]

Dorwinion is an own name as well for example...
I think you mean no person.
So maybe...Moria.
Isildur brought "death" to Sauron, just as Moria brought about Thror's.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope...

We are actually speaking about someone living, non inanimate object or place... so no kind of trick like that one... but still, it is no name in the meaning of a name that would you'll find in one's identity card.

[Beregond]

I would say Azog, because he killed Thror, like Sauron's servants killed Isildur. But that's a name. And I could see it on a passport... "Azog of Khazad-dum, ID#2542".

And I would say the Elven Smiths of Eregion, because I think it was they who forged the Seven, like Sauron forged the One. But they aren't an individual.

A name like "the Witch-king", or Nazgul, seems to fit, except I see no connection to Thror. :confused:


EDIT: I think I have it! Dain I was Thror's father, and he was killed by a dragon, I believe.

Elendil was Isildur's father, and he was killed by...Sauron!

So the answer is...dragon! :D

Maybe... :P

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Azog it was not, because Azog killed Thrór, but Sauron himself it was not who killed Isildur...

But believe it or not, you found the correct answer!
Yes, the answer was THE one dragon, the "cold-drake" who killed Dáin I., just as by Sauron's hand was killed Isildur's father. :)

Please continue the thread :)

[Beregond]

Wow, yay! :)

Alright....



Smeagol is to Hithaeglir

as

Arvedui is to ______.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmmm... Forochel?

Sméagol escaped the Stoor villages and hid in Hithaeglir, the same did Arvedui when he escaped from Fornost. Or, it could be even the "unnamed abandoned dwarven mines" where Arvedui was hiding at certain time...

[Beregond]

Not Forochel....but..your other guesses hit so near I must almost give it to you...but...give me more information.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So it's not Forochel? I meant, of course, not Forochel, since it is a bay, but the land around there, Lossoth village, and so on?

[Beregond]

Ah, no, the entire Forochel part was wrong. It was the last part of your guess that hit close.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, if I recall correctly, the Dwarven mines were in the north of the mountains, I'd have to check it but I believe there is not explicitely said where, but it looks like it was somewhere on the edge of the mountains of Angmar or something like that... so actually, also part of the Misty Mountains.

[The Might]

No...the mines were still in the Blue Mountains, and afterwards he lived on the shore of the Icebay of Forochel.

[Beregond]

The Might, you're right, but for the question note that I said Hithaeglir instead of Misty Mountains... :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I looked it up, and it says:
But King Arvedui held out upon the North Downs until the last, and then fled north with some of his guard; and they escaped by the swiftness of their horses.
For a while Arvedui hid in the tunnels of the old dwarf-mines near the far end of the Mountains, but he was driven at last by hunger to seek the help of the Lossoth, the Snowmen of Forochel.
Since the North Downs are about half way from the Misty to the Blue mountains (and maybe a little bit closer to the Misty), and there are not any Mountains mentioned earlier (just "Mountains"), we can only speculate what Mountains these were. But I was always under the impression that it was the end of the Misty Mountains, or the Mountains of Angmar, because to get to Ered Luin, Arvedui would have to cross Lune and before, go around - or through - Emyn Uial, which doesn't seem logical because he could as well flee to Mithlond and not complicate the matters any more. But we are also told about "swiftness of horses", and going through or around Emyn Uial on horses is not much of a bonus, however on the vast plains between North Downs and the Misty Mountains (or mountains of Angmar) the horses could use their speed well, as later were by the Witch-King himself in his pursuit by Glorfindel.
Also, there is some strange sort of mountains or hills depicted on the LotR map just west of the mountains of Angmar, and since it seems unlikely that the King will on his flight willingly get near the enemy's capitol of Carn Dum, the Dwarven mines could as well be there.

EDIT: Cross-posted. Hmm... :)

[Beregond]

I would not have thought he would get even that close... and I assumed it was the Mountains of Ered Luin, but now you've left me wondering if that's true. Ered Luin was what I was looking for anyway, the Sindarin name of the mountains that I thought Arvedui hid under, but since I may be wrong, it was a poor question!

Legate, I will say you got it because you first mentioned the old dwarf mines. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, this is sort of troubling, since if you were looking for Ered Luin, then I'd say Miggy got it. But... probably if we don't know for sure where the mines were, and if you don't want to use your right as the riddle-poster to say "for MY riddle, THIS answer is correct", then... ah, whatever, let the thread move - it will surely swap between us more times, so...

Isildur is to Gil-Galad

as

Túrin is to _______

[Beregond]

Ah, yes, sorry if I was a little unfair, Miggy, wasn't intended. :)

I would say Turgon, because he was the reigning High King of the Noldor during Turin's lifetime, just as Gil-Galad was the High King of the Noldor for the most part of Isildur's lifetime.

[The Might]

maybe Finwe
Isildur killed Sauron and so avenged Gil-galad
It has been prophesized that Turin would kill Melkor, and would thus avenge Finwe
Why I picked him is because both he and Gil-galad were High Kings of the Noldor

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Beregond: Fine, but it's not that general (many people lived at the same time - this works both ways, it is more personal).
Mig: Good idea, you did well to bring Sauron between them, though it's not what I was looking for.

It's personal - so it relates to the people who really were in contact.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

My first guess was Thingol, but I don't have a real reason and it feels stupid.

I keep going back to the relationships between fathers, particularly because Elendil and Gil-Galad died in battle together. Perhaps something to do with Hurin, though I'm not sure what? But then Hurin outlived Turin... and Elendil died before Isildur.
I also keep getting the images of the broken Anduril and Gurthang, though they were broken in different ways, and Gurthang was actually Turin's...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I might say you are, how should I say it, not knocking, but running around the right door :D

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Okay, let's see if I'm barking up the wrong tree...

Isildur's father Elendil fought against Sauron (at Orodruin) with Gil-Galad.
Meanwhile,
Turin's father Hurin fought against Morgoth (at Thangorodrim) with Fingon.

They were both crucial battles of their Age... but I'm not sure if Hurin -> Fingon is quite as strong of a tie as Gil-Galad -> Elendil.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Too complicated. :D So, the answer is no.

[The Might]

Maybe Beleg
Just as Elendil's (and then Isildur's) sword and Gil-galad's spear fought against Sauron, so did Turin's sword and Beleg's bow fight against Morgoth.
The idea is that all 4 all well known weapons.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope.

Let's make it easier by widening the range (hopefully):

Isildur is to Gil-Galad and Elendil

as

Túrin is to _______ and ________

[The Might]

Well, I guess my idea about Isildur avenging Elendil and Gil-galad by cutting the Ring off Sauron's hand makes sense.

But Sauron was not killed, so I can't think of anyone Turin avenged without killing someone else.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So then you must leave the idea of avenging, eh? Now it's not that hard (or I believe :D - but really, it isn't). Just think what else did Elendil&Gil-Galad in common in relation to Isildur - and think of the same with Túrin...

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Oh, why not: Huor!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh, why not, but it's wrong :D But anyway, we are looking for two names now... and it's far easier then I think...

[Shards of Narsil]

How about Hurin and Thingol? Thingol was king of Doriath and Hurin was the leader of men at the time, as Gil-galad was king of Lindon and Elendil was king of men.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Eee. Not what I had in mind (and someone I think already guessed very similar thing).

Hint: Clear your mind. Now close your eyes and imagine these three together. What scenery do you see?

[The Might]

Well I see Elendil and Gil-galad dying, then Isildur coming and avenging them.
In the same way I'd see Turing avenge maybe Morwen and Nienor.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, but Morwen was still alive :) So no, that's not it.

[Shards of Narsil]

Ah, so in keeping with TM's theme, then Turin would be avenging Finduilas and Beleg?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Beleg? *cough* Well, he ultimately did "avenge" him, but Isildur surely didn't kill himself, you know. Sort of mixing apples and oranges here (uh? Which one is what, I wonder?). So, no. But I hope this chain of thoughts might hit someone with posing himself the right question.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Okey doke, this might be a little bit of a stretch. But in both cases a v. important sword was involved, and everyone involved died. Hopefully this is at least the right scenario, and I've just picked the wrong characters...

Gil-Galad and Elendil died fighting Sauron, whom Isildur managed to destroy. (Elendil just happened to be Isildur's father.)

Meanwhile,

Hunthor and Nienor died fighting Glaurung, whom Turin managed to destroy. (Nienor just happened to be Turin's sister.)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay. Take the thread, please.

From the beginning I was looking for Hunthor, who was Túrin's companion in the final battle with Glaurung, but died. The same happened in the "kill Sauron" scenario: only Isildur survived, and he was the one who killed Sauron.

I would accept Dorlas as the second answer as well. But the main thing was about Hunthor.

[The Might]

Hmm...I was thinking about that, but didn't think about Hunthor.

[Shards of Narsil]

I had Hunthor in my head and thought it would fit, but for some reason didn't post. Probably because Legate was laughing at me.

Any way, good job Beanamir!

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Wow, I can't believe Hunthor was the right answer. Good riddle, Legate!
Okay, this one is probably pretty easy. It might require explanation, though.

Frodo is to Grishnakh

as

Beren is to ________

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

is it

Frodo is to Grishnakh

as

Beren is to Morgoth

[The Might]

I'd rather say Sauron.
Grishnakh was trying to find the Ring-bearer (Frodo), out of Sauron's orders just as
Sauron tryed to find Beren out of Melkor's orders.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Or even Carcharoth could be that. But I think Sauron is more correct.

I had Hunthor in my head and thought it would fit, but for some reason didn't post. Probably because Legate was laughing at me.
Oh, when? Sorry if it ever seemed like that, but I don't remember any such occassion!

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Good thinking with Sauron, though if that were my line of reasoning, I probably would prefer Morgoth, just because Grishnakh is so incredibly inferior to Sauron as a servant of evil.

Coincidentally, Legate, Carcaroth is who I was looking for: but that wasn't the reason why. Think less specifically of Frodo's personal relation to Grishnakh...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Huh! Indeed? Now why... Grishnakh didn't bite off Frodo's arm... nor did Sam sing lullaby to him... nor did he eat the Ring (though he'd certainly like to... bah! maybe not, what would Sauron do to him then if he learned it's inside him?)... not personal, you say? But what then, when they are connected by it? Grishnakh captured, or later also saved Frodo's friends, Merry&Pippin... could it be said that Carcharoth "saved" the Silmaril? Or those who killed him were his friends... Horsemen - Huan? Bah, hobbits did not know the Horsemen... Mablung... I can't think of anything, really. :confused: Maybe - a Nazgul that scared Frodo was supposed to carry Grishnakh over the water? But Carcharoth did not need anything to carry... and the simple relationship Frodo - Sauron - Grishnakh vs. Beren - Morgoth - Carcharoth it's not as you said... that idea would fit more with Shagrat or some other "door guard".

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Yes, Frodo-Sauron-Grishnakh is a tie with Beren-Morgoth-Carcaroth. Anyway, since you already know the name itself, here's my reasoning behind it:

Frodo entered Mordor dressed as an Orc: Grishnakh was a notable Orc who served Sauron, Lord of Mordor. (You're right in saying that Shagrat would have done better as an example, because he was at the gates of Mordor when Frodo entered.)
In any case, Beren entered Angband dressed as a Werewolf: Carcaroth was a notable Werewolf who served Morgoth, Lord of Angband.

So there it is. Thread's yours, Legate.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Huh! I probably wouldn't have thought of it. Tough one.

Okay, here goes mine:

Thranduil is to Sauron

as

Fréalaf Hildeson is to _______

[The Might]

I can't think of anyone else but Wulf, who was defeated together with his Dunlendings by Frealaf, just as Thranduil's elves managed to defeat Sauron's orcs.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yup, it was Wulf, but not for the reason you name.

Since Miggy said he will not be here now, the next person who says the correct reason why can have the thread.

[The Might]

Ha, I'm back...and it seems nobody was interested in the thread...
Anyway...maybe because Sauron attacked Thranduil while all his allies were under attack as well, just as Wulf did, taking advantage of the fact that Easterlings were attacking Rohan in the east and that Gondor was threatened by Corsairs.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm, happens that I probably forgot what I had in mind when I put the riddle up:o Oh, have the thread - I think I was occupying it here for quite some time...

[The Might]

I can't seem to be able to come up with anything good right now, so anyone who wishes may post.

[Thinlómien]

What about

Bilbo is to Dori

as

The Ring is to _________?

[The Might]

Dori and Bilbo together makes me think about Dori carrying Bilbo on his back through the tunnels, just like a Ring-bearer carries the Ring.
Considering that Dori dropped Bilbo when he was attacked by an Orc, I would say the Ring-bearer in this case must be Isildur since he also dropped the Ring while he was being followed by Orcs.

[Thinlómien]

Well, that's perfectly true, but not the thing I had in mind. Though I must say the thing I had in mind was very similar than that guess of yours, but the answer is not Isildur. Keep guessing. :)

[The Might]

Maybe Frodo...he dropped the Ring eventually when attacked by Gollum...well actually he lot his finger as well

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Actually my first idea that Bilbo was an unwanted baggage for Dori, but since the Ring was an unwanted baggage for everyone, there's not much chance to get a clear answer. I thought about Sam, just in case TM is not right :)

[Thinlómien]

No and no, but keep guessing, you're really close... :D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Then to Gollum. He couldn't get rid of it, though he wanted to :D

[Thinlómien]

Gollum is the correct answer, but that is not the correct reasoning. Surely Gollum was not the only one who wanted to get rid of the Ring (nor Dori the only one who wanted to get rid of Bilbo :p)...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

In that case, it could be many things. But the first that comes to my mind is that Dori was the one who carried Bilbo in the goblin tunnels, as did Gollum with the Ring for a long time. :D

[Thinlómien]

Combine that with one of your or TM's previous guesses and you have it.

[The Might]

Well then maybe that they both dropped their load as they accidentally fell.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, Gollum did not accidentally fall... we are not told what happened to him after he got that little goblin.

But otherwise I suppose you meant that Gollum both carried and lost the Ring, as Dori both carried and "lost that burglar". We can also say it happened almost at the same place.

[Thinlómien]

No... (TM, I can't see how that's combining Legate's guess and some of the earlier ones... :))

[Thinlómien]

And no, you don't have it either, Legate. :)

Well, combine TM's first guess and the guess of Legate's I told you to combine with an earlier guess.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, combine TM's first guess and the guess of Legate's I told you to combine with an earlier guess.
What? :D

Okay, so how about that they both dropped their load in the presence of the goblins? But it was from a different side: Dori was chased by the goblins, while Gollum chased the goblins.

[Thinlómien]

What? :DCombine something from #572 with something from #579.

Which is to say, no, that is not the correct reasoning either.

[Thinlómien]

I'm going to leave BD for this night and so that you don't need to lose your night's sleep pondering this (;)), I'll give you the right answer as you're so close anyway.

To Dori, Bilbo is something he dropped in Moria.
To Gollum, the Ring is something he dropped in Moria.

:D

Legate can have the thread as he was the one to guess Gollum and to mention Moria (even though very vaguely).

[The Might]

What? :eek:
Moria is a bit further south the last time I looked on the map of M-e...?!?!
Though I must agree that Legate should go next.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

To Lommy: You did well to go to bed, your wits were getting sleepy! :p

Okay, let's ask something.

Thrór is to Nár
as
______ is to Elrond

[Thinlómien]

What?
Moria is a bit further south the last time I looked on the map of M-e...?!?!

To Lommy: You did well to go to bed, your wits were getting sleepy!


Indeed! :o :D The thing I had in mind was rather "in the goblin passages under the Misty Mountains" but somehow I managed to mix Moria with it when writing that post... *wonders what will happen in the trivia match* :rolleyes:

[Shards of Narsil]

Could Nar be considered Thror's herald, although the Dwarves did not have quite the same titles as the Elves? If so, then the answer is Gil-Galad since Elrond was his herald.

The other angle is that Nar advised Thror against going to Moria, and yet Thror proceeded and it cost him his life. Likewise, Elrond advised Isildur to destroy the ring, and yet he did not and it later cost him his life. In this case, the answer would be Isildur.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good thoughts, but no, not what I had in mind. I'm not quite sure what was Nár's position - he was just a companion as far as I know. And the Isildur answer also is not what I had in mind.

[The Might]

Maybe Arwen, because she did something against Elrond's advice just like Thror with Nar.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope. I would help you this way: What was Thrór to Nár? That was _____ to Elrond.
And I have to say "what" was Thrór to Nár. Even if it were gramatically correct, I couldn't say "who" was Thrór to Nár, because in this case it does not work like that.

[The Might]

Hmm
All I could find is that Thror and Nar were old companions. But besides that I don't know...

Hmmm...and Elrond's old companion might be...Glorfindel?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Don't think about relationship. Think about what they represented. At certain point of time. *shrugs* (You will understand when you find the answer)

[The Might]

What they represented...
Hard to say.
Maybe Elwing in this case.

Elrond was spared by the Sons of Feanor like Nar was spared by Azog...really difficult to understand this.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No, no... what to say...

WHAT they represented... not WHO they represented... not relationship but... well, yes, what they represented... I don't know how to say that better... emphasise the WHAT... WHAT... like an... well, object...

If you don't get it now, then tell me and I will post a hint that will aim at it from some other point of view.

[The Might]

Maybe they represented a pair or something like that. (not in the romantical way)
So would Elros then be the match for Elron do make a pair as well.

[Nerwen]

Hint, please.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I was thinking what kind of hint should I give. Maybe if you have anyone any specific request of which direction should I aim my hint.

But first, let me emphasise the fact that what I am speaking of can be found really in the book, in the story of Thrór and Nár (at least the part of the riddle that concerns these two).

The best thing I can do is to suggest to try whether you can find parallels between Elrond's life and the story of Thrór and Nár. And if there was ever similar thing that happened to Elrond (not the whole story, but some aspects of it).

[Nerwen]

But Elrond had such a long life!

Mind if I ask what age this parellel even took place in?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, that would be helping quite a lot...

But okay, I can tell you that it wasn't in Beleriand.

And I am referring to only one single event. In both of the stories: Nár's and Elrond's.

[The Might]

I can only think of Celebrian for now, who was tormented by the Orcs.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Getting closer. In some things very close. In fact, you are probably the closest you can be. The next guess in the line of going this way should be the correct answer.

[The Might]

Hmmm...perhaps Celebrimbor, whos death at the hands of the Orcs Elrond could no prevent?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, Celebrimbor it was. I was referring also to the fact that Thrár's head was chopped off and Nár saw it the same as Sauron's host attacked with Celebrimbor's body instead of a standard...

Please give us another, Mr. Might.

[The Might]

Well, I waited for a while to try and find something good...anyway here goes:

Tom Cotton and Rosie Cotton are like

Faramir and ?

[Nerwen]

Which Tom Cotton did you have in mind? :confused:

[The Might]

the young one

[Nerwen]

Boromir, then– Tom was Rosie's older brother.

[The Might]

Yes, but not what I had in mind...something more special.

[Nerwen]

Can you please clarify that, Might?

Is the answer

A) Not Boromir

or

B) Boromir, but for a different reason?

[The Might]

A.

[Nerwen]

Lothíriel? She married Faramir's wife's brother; Tom married Rosie's husband's sister.

[The Might]

Indeed. :)
You're good, nice to see you so often in the Quiz Room!

[Nerwen]

Thanks.:)

Here's my effort:

Dragon's teeth are to the Dwarves as ________ are to the Sackville-Bagginses.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

What about spoons? Fram gave the Dwarves this necklace of dragon teeth, and they were quite upset. The same happened with Bilbo's gift to Lobelia.

[Nerwen]

You've got it.:)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Gandalf was to Denethor

as

Galadriel was to ________

[Nerwen]

How about Saruman? Galadriel supported his rival (Gandalf); Gandalf supported Denethor's rival (Aragorn).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Absolutely precise shot! Very good! Please continue :)

[Nerwen]

Finrod Felagund is to Men as ________ is to the Elves.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm, I don't know, someone like... Oromë?

[Nerwen]

Yep, your turn.:)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh, yeah! Then...

Gollum on Mount Doom is to Sauron

as

Two orcs in the wood are to _______

I hope this is not too vague, but I think with the specifications I provided it is not :)

[McCaber]

Is is Isildur?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

These were not two (and in fact, they were not precisely in the wood either) :)

[Nerwen]

A clue, please?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

What these two cases have in common is fire.

[Nerwen]

Hmmn... my brain isn't working today. 'Nother clue, please.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Catalyser.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The fire is the catalyser. It is needed to be there in both cases. I don't want to be too obvious...

[Nerwen]

Is it Aghan the Drûg?

Two Orcs set fire to Barach's house in the wood, burning the statue into which Aghan had transferred his power.

Gollum fell into the fires of Mount Doom, destroying the Ring into which Sauron had transferred his power.

In both cases the object's creator was also harmed through a kind of "sympathetic magic".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Exactly :) I know, tricky, but it wasn't that hard, wasn't it?

Please, continue with the thread :)

[Nerwen]

I don't know why it took me so long– except I haven't been around for the last few weeks.

I'll get back to you when I've thought of something.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Thought of something yet, Nerwen?

[Nerwen]

Oh dear, I forgot all about this thread.

Hang in there!

[Nerwen]

This is the best I can come up with at the moment. Lame, yes, but it will serve to re-start the thread.

Maeglin is to Gondolin

as

A thrush is to ______

[McCaber]

Smaug?

[Nerwen]

Yes. Told you it was lame.:)

Your turn.

[Thinlómien]

McCaber?

[McCaber]

Woah, totally forgot about this one. All right:

Tuor was to Turgon

as

_____ was to Samwise

[Nerwen]

Faramir Took? He was his friend's son and he married his daughter.

[McCaber]

Right, of course. Your turn.

[The Might]

Well, since nobody is posting, an easy one to get things back on track.

The Crown of Gondor is to the Kings of Gondor as
? is to the Kings of Arnor

[Thinlómien]

Sceptre of the Northern Kingdom, or whatever is the fancy way to phrase it... ;)

[The Might]

True

[Thinlómien]

Okay, this is an odd question...

Arien is to Morgoth
as
Sam is to ________

[Nerwen]

Shelob?

She couldn't bear the light of the star-glass, just as Morgoth could bear the light of the sun.

[Thinlómien]

Good, you're on the right track, but in that case I would have said "star-glass", not Sam...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Then it does look very strange and hard to make it fit to make sense. I can only think about Snaga :D But that looks very odd as well.

[Thinlómien]

Well, in fact, I was thinking about Snaga. :D But once again I'm a bit baffled by own logic :p, so if you could tell me how did you reach that conclusion, it'd be good.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, I see... :) Well, I was mainly thinking that they (Morgoth and Snaga) were both scared by the other, and could not withstand the other's presence... did not dare to go to the other's presence... (in Morgoth's case, kind of indirectly) I actually thought about some other reason but now I seem to have forgotten it :D ...in any case, when you speak about Sam, there could be hardly anyone else than Snaga in such connection.

[Thinlómien]

Okay, but that is only half of it but anyway the thread is yours. I was also thinking about the aspect that Morgoth was afraid of Arien, even though he was more powerful and she was, and in the same manner we could maybe say that Snaga was more powerful than Sam was. (Okay, it depends on how we define power. In fact, Sam would probably be more powerful in many ways.) But yes anyway, please take the thread. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I was also thinking about the aspect that Morgoth was afraid of Arien, even though he was more powerful and she was, and in the same manner we could maybe say that Snaga was more powerful than Sam was.

I don't think he was more powerful, actually, even if you look at it by the simple measurement of "who had bigger attack bonus" :D Maybe Snaga had some military training after him (but rather just the experience of serving under Shagrat than some "proper" training), but still I don't think he would have been more skilful in combat than Sam. Although it's possible.

Anyway...

Saruman is to Lotho
as
Túrin is to _____

[The Might]

Maybe Brandir.
Just as Saruman was the real master of the Men, although officially it was Lotho so did the Haladin no longer give heed to Brandir, but actually listened to Túrin.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No, no, not exactly. The matter with Saruman and Lotho was more complicated than between Túrin and Brandir, the similarity in this aspect is not very good. Try again.

[Gwathagor]

Forweg the Outlaw. Turin killed him, and then ruled the fellowship of outlaws himself, similar to the way Saruman had Lotho killed before he took control of the Shire.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good, good, Uncle Gwathy! (oh sorry, I meant Gwath :) ) Please take the thread. :)

[Gwathagor]

Tol Morwen is to Beleriand as
________ is to Numenor

[The Might]

Ok, so Tol Morwen was left there after Beleriand sunk, meaning that I must find an island that remained after Numenor was destroyed.

Aha, the Isle of Meletrama, although this seems to rather be a myth amongst Dúnedain rather than a real place.

[Gwathagor]

That's right, of course.

[Eönwë]

Reviving a thread

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Bilbo is to Frodo

as

_______ is to Dior.

[Nerwen]

Lúthien?

In each case, the second party inherited magic jewellery from the first.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Nope, but it is the inheritance connexion.

[Nerwen]

Thingol, then?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Your turn. :)

[Urwen]

Eldacar is to Castamir as
Miriel is to ___________

[The Might]

Nice to see this thread revived!
I'd have to guess it's Ar-Pharazon.

Both he and Castamir usurped the throne of Númenor/Gondor from the rightful ruler Eldacar/Miriel.

[Urwen]

Right you are.Go on!

[The Might]

Thought I'd keep it linked, so:

Ar-Pharazon is to Miriel as
Brodda is to ______

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Aerin? Forced marriage of the evil overlord with a good noblewoman?

[The Might]

Correct again. ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Beren the Steward is to Mouth of Sauron
as
_________ is to Lotho Sackville-Baggins

:) Happy riddling.

[The Might]

I'd have to say Frodo Baggins.

The links are:
Beren - Saruman - Mouth of Sauron - Isengard
Frodo - Lobelia - Lotho - Bag End

The order both times is:
Rightful owner - rightful new owner - unrightful new or possible new owner - place of interest.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Perfect, agreed. Just for your interest, I would have accepted also one different solution of the riddle, which would be Argeleb II. (if we took Lotho's rulership as over the whole Shire, and here the unlawful ownership would be even more strongly underlined). But well done!

I should also say, funnily enough, when I was making this question, I was considering at one point to write an untraditional riddle with several blank gaps to fill (like: Beren - X - X / X - Lobelia - Lotho), and your links are basically the copy of that :D

[The Might]

Pippin is to Denethor as
Theoden to ______

[Urwen]

Aragorn?

[The Might]

Nope.

[Urwen]

Maybe Eomer?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Or some sort of Turgon? (the Steward) That's quite random... but it's sort of hard to see what is the connection you're looking for. Tricky, Miggy! :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

*coughcough* Miggy?

[The Might]

Sorry about that, no still no correct answers.
I'll use a Latin proverb to give you a big hint - in vino veritas!

[Urwen]

Ah.Truth.

Gandalf,then

[The Might]

No, it's not Gandalf.
Also, I would appreciate explanations, that way I can provide hints with what is wrong about the guesses.

[Pitchwife]

I've been wondering for quite a while whether it shouldn't read "________ to Théoden" instead of other way round like you put it, TM. Looking at the relationship between Pippin and Denethor, what have we got?
1.) Pippin told Denethor how his son died,
2.) swore fealty to him,
3.) served him as his squire and, I believe, cup-bearer (the in-vino-veritas hint could refer to this),
4.) disobeyed his orders to save Faramir's life.
I can think of several people who performed one or more of these services for Théoden, but no instance of Théoden himself doing anything of the like.:(

[The Might]

No, no, it's correct this way.

[The Might]

Still no takers?
One of Pitch's points is very close to the answer.

[Galadriel55]

For some reason I think it has to something with either Saruman or Wormtongue

[The Might]

No, but close.
The answer does come from Rohan, and keep in mind the vino hint, should be easy then.

[xMellrynxMaidenx]

Merry Brandybuck became a squire for king Theoden...is it Merry?

[The Might]

No, as I said the answer does indeed come from Rohan, as in born and raised there.

[Galadriel55]

The only person that was born and raised in Rohan who had anything to do with wine is Eowyn. She passed the cup of wine around during Theoden's first dinner/lunch with Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas.
But I honestly don't know how that can fit with Pippin and Denethor. Except for maybe Theoden and Pippin are both trying to convince Eowyn and Denethor not to lose hope and faith...

[Galadriel55]

Might???

[Urwen]

And I will use both one of my favorite characters and an interesting find I've found in this one.



Maeglin is to Glirhuin as Saeros is to ____