Linguistic puns, riddles, and jokes in LotR, etc.

[littlemanpoet]

I was thinking about the names, ‘Boromir’ and ‘Faramir’.

I’m thinking that Tolkien was so comfortable with linguistic ‘laws’ (which may seem quite esoteric to you and me) that he could use them to make linguistic puns, riddles, and jokes. Have you heard of Werner’s and Grimm’s Laws? I forget which is which, but here’s the basic idea: as time passes and the human tongue finds a more smooth way to produce a word, its pronunciation changes.

For example, a ‘b’ sound slides toward a ‘v’ sound (I’m simplifying), which slides toward an ‘f’ sound.

There’s more to it than that, but it’ll serve for what I’m thinking about.

Compare the Latin ‘vulpus’ to the English ‘fox’

(Latin isn’t the direct ancestor of English, but its literary form is older than that of English, and the two languages are related)

Boromir is older than Faramir.

‘Bor’ is reminiscent of the English ‘to bore’ – as in, ‘boring, yawn’, or ‘boring-digging a hole’.
‘mir’ is reminiscent of the English ‘mirror’ or ‘mere’, a water in which one can see clear reflection.
‘Far’ is reminiscent of, well, ‘far=distant’, which suggests far-seeing.

So, Boromir ‘mirrors’, perhaps, forcing the issue?
And Faramir ‘mirrors’, perhaps, far sight?

Do you think Tolkien though out his names on this level?

If so, what do you make of Frodo? Samwise? Pippin/Peregrin? Merry/Meriadoc? Legolas? Gimli? All the rest, such as Denethor, and so forth? And all those hobbit names in the genealogies?

[Pay no attention to this mad scribing: I’m dinging dat Tholgien vaz zo gomvorthavle vid tlinkhwizdig tlawsh dath he goult yewsh dem doo maig tlinkhwizdig bunsh, rrithils, on yoegz.- unless you can tell what the mad scribe is up to? smilies/smile.gif ]

[Manardariel]

Very interesring point, littlemanpoet. I never thougt of it. Here´s what I came up with...

SamWISE: Intresting. Hobbits are described as careles, happy folks, sometimes even dumb, but certainly not WISE. Maybe this should indicate that Sam stands out from the hobbit crowd?

Merry: That´s rather obvious. Merry also means "happy", and it´s one of Merry´s qualities that he hardly ever loses his spirit and humor.

Eomer and Eowyn. This one´s sort of far fetched, but not very. They both share "Eo-" which indicates they´re very close. But now it´s interesting: EoWYN is spoken like "to win". An indication that she will indeed "win renown", which she obviously wants. EoMER however is spoken like EoMARE. A mare is a female horse. Eomer comes from Rohan. Rohan is famous for horses. Makes sense, doesn´t it?

[ February 26, 2003: Message edited by: Manardariel ]

[Selmo]

Manardariel,

I'm afraid to say that Sam's name doesn't suggest that he is wise.

Sam is an Old English prefix meaning half, so Samwise = halfwit.

[littlemanpoet]

Samwise = halfwit

And that's the joke. Sam's intellect is no great shakes, but the joke is that it doesn't matter. He has a whole battery of good character traits that make up for a, shall we say, fair to middling mind, such as loyalty, courage, not to mention insights into other people.

[Carorëiel]

The book, "The Hobbit Companion" by David Day, explores some of the linguistics/philology behind many of the names in Tolkien's work. Since my school deems linguistics something creative writing majors needn't bother themselves with, I can't comment on the accurracy/scholarship of the book, but it's interesting, at least.

[Rina]

A very interesting topic!

I have always thought Frodo, was a very un-Hobbit like name, some how too angular. However, when you take it apart, it is "Fro-" as in forward, and "do" as in an action. Perhaps this is reflective of the fact that Frodo was the one to go forward and do this seemingly impossible deed, emphasizing that it was his fate to carry the Ring.

[Eressië Ailin]

Actually, I've only looked into the Elvish names. Thank you littlemanpoet for bringing this up! BTW, welcome to the Downs, Carorëiel!! As I now say to every newly deceased BDer I get to meet: isn't it great to be dead and rotting?

[Angry Hill Troll]

Here's a linguistic pun regarding Eowyn that Tolkien didn't intend (but ended up with anyway. This has to do with the more recent (some 50 years after LOTR was written) feminist spelling of 'women' as 'wymyn'. It's kind of amusing that Eowyn has a 'y' substituting for an 'i' and is the only character who could plausibly be interpreted as feminist icon.

A different linguistic pun Tolkien may have intended. One of the Dwarf-lords of Moria who was killed after the balrog reappeared was named Nain. '-ain' seems a common ending of dwarven names, Thain, Dain, ... But nain means 'dwarf' in French. I wonder how the translators handled this...otherwise he might end up sounding pretty generic. "We couldn't think up a good name for him, so we just call him 'dwarf'!" smilies/rolleyes.gif

[littlemanpoet]

Rina:

"Fro-" as in forward, and "do" as in an action.

This is precisely what I had been thinking. Frodo was the one who did 'do' the deed of continuing 'fro'-ward, no matter what.

Thanks, Carorëiel, for the reference. smilies/smile.gif

Eressië Ailin: You're welcome. smilies/smile.gif Actually, I've only looked into the Elvish names. What have you turned up?

Angry Hill Troll: Hi, Troll, I'm Dwarf. Meet my friend, Hobbit. smilies/tongue.gif

'wyn' is equivalent to 'friend' or 'friendly' in Anglo Saxon. I'm not sure what 'eo' stands for in Anglo Saxon, though.

What about the word, "Eotheod"? That has half of Theoden's name in it, too.

Now to really spice things up. I was trying to think up a name for the beings in a story I'm writing, which are based on the Hebrew mythic tale found in Genesis chapter 6, about the sons of the gods. I came up with: El (god) - Bar (son) = El-bar. Think of those linguistic laws and allow for a little bit of slippage of the tongue and you have: El-var - then El-far. Elvar. Elfar. Elves. The Elves as such, in myth come down to us from Nordic an Celtic myths, where they are called (Nordic) Elves and (Celtic) Tuatha de Danaan. They're the same basic thing. Was Tolkien playing a linguistic joke by calling his Elves the El-dar? Ne?

[Rina]

That is really interesting about the Eldar/El-bar. And that explains the rather cryptic story in Genesis -- they were elves of course!

I have discovered something interesting. The last half of Theoden's name is reminiscent of Odin or Woden, the supreme Norse god. Also, the last part of Denethor's name is like Thor, the Norse God of thunder. I wonder if Tolkein did this purposely.

Also, Gimli's name is similar to gimlet, which is apparently a small tool for carving, yet is also used to mean piercing. Perhaps this refers to a dwarf's prediliction for carving and working in stone and piercing the earth with mining.

[Isilmëiel]

In Tom Shippey's book, he offers a very interesting thought. It states in the appendix that all the names were "translated," and that the names of hobbit males usually ended with -a, while the females ended with -o or were the name of a plant or jewel. Therefore, Frodo's name would really be Froda (wise one in Old English), which corresponds with two stories.
Froda was the father of Ingeld, a warrior. Froda was on the other hand, a pacifist, just as Frodo was at the end of RotK.
The Norse equivalent of Froda would be written in a way I can't type on this keyboard, but is pronounced Frolith. Frolith had complete peace under his leadership, due to a magic mill that ground out peace and prosperity. He refused to let the giantesses who worked it have any rest, so they ground out an army who killed Frolith and took his gold. The mill is now supposed to be in the ocean, grinding the salt into the sea.
So there you go. I have no idea if this is relevant at all, and I probably paraphrased everything poorly, but I tried. smilies/smile.gif

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Hmmm...Interesting thread.

Gimli's name is similar to gimlet, which is apparently a small tool for carving, yet is also used to mean piercing. Perhaps this refers to a dwarf's prediliction for carving and working in stone and piercing the earth with mining.

Here's some more on Gimli. Maybe that piercing quality is shown through his tongue (no, not a tongue ring). His conversations with Galadriel seemed to have pierced her heart, in a good way. Also, Gimli is similar to gimbals, which is a device used on axes, the weapon of choice for Gimli and the dwarves. Also, gimel is the third letter of the Hebrew alphabet, but I don't know what it means or if it fits in.

Here's one, Pippin. 'Pip' can mean the small seed of a fruit. So, Pippin in a way was like a seed in the Shire, but along the journey he grew up and came back strong (not just in a physical sense) and tall, like the seed will grow into a tall strong tree. Also, 'pip' can mean to hatch out of an egg. So, kind of like the first analogy, Pippin hatched out of his eggshell of ignorance, innocence, and immaturity into a life of maturity, knowledge, etc. You get the picture. Pippin also means the seed of a fruit. And slang for pippin is, 'an admired person or thing.' 'Pippin' and 'pip' are similar to pep and pepper. This could indicate the immaturity of Pippin and show his energetic childish qualities.

And Pippin was the son of Paladin. A paladin being a champion (sort of like a knight). And Pippin sort of became a Paladin on his journey.

This has to do with the more recent (some 50 years after LOTR was written) feminist spelling of 'women' as 'wymyn'.

Do you think it's possible that this term spawned from Tolkien?

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Annunfuiniel]

Interesting discussion indeed! I would just like to add one thing concerning the names like Eomer, Eowyn and like. éo- was a very common prefix in Rohan and for obvious reasons: its meaning in old english is 'horse'.
And what about Gimli then?
'its meaning seems to have been "fire"' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 297, dated 1967).
The meanings you have given to his name sound better to me though. smilies/smile.gif

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: Annunfuiniel ]

[Phrim]

Actually Tolkien has a lot to say concerning character names, in the "Translations" section in the back of RotK. Tolkien says that in "Hobbitish" Merry was actually named Kalimac:

Meriadoc was chosen to fit the fact that this character's shortened name. Kali, meant in the Westron 'jolly, gay', though it was actually an abbreviation of the now unmeaning Buckland name Kalimac.

Likewise, Sam and his father had names that were similarly changed to give them a certain meaning to the reader:

But Sam and his father Ham were really called Ban and Ran. These were shortenings of Banazîr and Ranugad, originally nicknames, meaning 'half-wise, simple' and 'stay-at-home', but being words that had fallen out of colloquial use they remained as traditional names in certain families. I have therefore tried to preserve these features by using Samwise and Hamfast, modernizations of ancient English samwís and hámfæst which corresponded closely in meaning.

Personally, I find this "Translation" section to be fascinating. While it's still clearly a fictional account, it does give some insight on names that were purposely chosen to be close to words or styles of words that the reader might be familiar with.

[littlemanpoet]

Rina: That is really interesting about the Eldar/El-bar. And that explains the rather cryptic story in Genesis -- they were elves of course!

Well, it's not really quite that simple. One must deal with the question, "is there any real correlation between a Hebrew word-pair and a Germanic word? Is there any proof that the primordial Germanic word came from a Hebrew word? I suppose that depends on the linguistic prevalence of "El" as being equated with 'godhood'; I don't know the answer to that one.

Just as interesting to me is the similarity between "Deus" and "Zeus", but that's only tenuously related to the topic of this thread, I suppose.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Also, gimel is the third letter of the Hebrew alphabet, but I don't know what it means or if it fits in. Did Tolkien know Hebrew? If he did...well, I can't find anything symbolic about the letter gimel, though it is rather strange/funny, that if Gimli were translated into Hebrew, it would probably sound more like "Gimeli" than like "Gimli".

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Actually, I think the word gimel means camel, and dwarves, like camels could travel long distances carrying heavy burdens.

[littlemanpoet]

Here are some interesting names to consider, not only their meanings according to the languages of Tolkien, but their English connotations:

Elrond

Glorfindel

Galadriel

What do they mean? And what do they connote, do you think?

[Phrim]

In looking at those names, I wonder, what came first, the names or the language? Obviously if you're looking for meaning in the Elvish names, the first thing I'd want to know is whether he made up the names first, then derived the rest of the language afterward, or whether the names originally came from the language.

Does anyone know?

[Rina]

To me, all the elvish names are very rolling, and liquid, which makes them seem melodic, as opposed to be angular and prosy.

Elrond especially demonstrates this as it has the two liguid sounds back to back, l and r. I'm not sure what his name connotes to me.

Glorfindel and Galadriel both begin with a G sound. There is a linguistic term which I believe is called phonostheme, which means that sounds can have a theme or their own particular connotations. In English, some sounds with GL often connote light or brightness. For example, glisten, glitter, glimmer, glow, etc. It seems that a good many elven names begin with G and this may be why, because elves are thought of as bright. Also, in elvish, I believe the stem "Galad" means light.

Glorfindel contains the stem "glor," which to me not only connotes light, but is similar to the word glory. Perhaps Glorfindel is one who finds glory.

Galadriel reminds me of the word glad, which seems contradictory to me. Galadriel is wise and powerful, but I don't see her as being truly glad.

[littlemanpoet]

Phrim: All the reports are that Tolkien created the language and then wrote the history to figure out how they came to be. Which means the phonemes (word-pieces) were there before the characters and their names.

Rina: A very enlightening post! smilies/smile.gif
Galadriel seems to have 'lady' in it, too.

El-rond = star-roof. Weird.
Galadriel = ?
Glorfindel = ?____-hair-star

That's using the glossary in back of the Sil. I don't know my elvish well enough to do much good. I guess connotations will have to do.

But I do see the "glory" in Glorfindel. Elrond feels like 'rock' to me, somehow. Aglarond? Nargothrond? A fortress?

Now for my pet peeve - Tolkien's worst name: Legolas. Leg 'o lamb. An elf with a lass's leg? See what I mean? erk smilies/tongue.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

And as for the ego in Legolas - perhaps the product of too many fan-gurls? smilies/biggrin.gif

[the guy who be short]

In elvish, Elrond is elf-dome, Galadriel is Light-lady (i think) and Glorfindel is... er... Im not wholly sure. Glor means gold, and fin means hair. Maybe the golden haired?
By the way, this is with my limited knowledge of elvish and should not be trusted. smilies/rolleyes.gif
Anyway, Ive noticed Galad (light) is like Galadh (tree). Many it was intentional? As in, Galadriel, Galadhriel?

[Cúdae]

Interesting topic! Why am I always late for these things? Anyway...

Now for my pet peeve - Tolkien's worst name: Legolas. Leg 'o lamb. An elf with a lass's leg? See what I mean? erk

I think somewhere Tolkien said that Legolas's name is the dialect form of the two words "Laeg" and "[g]olas" or something like that. When I've looked at this name, I mess around with the pronunciation. For example, pronouncing the "Le" as "Lee." (Which just makes me laugh.) Then when I found "laeg" as being the actual root, I thought of something else:

First of all, rearrange ae into ea. Then take away the g and put an f in it's place. You have the word "leaf" now (while still having it bear a resemblance to "laeg"), which is also an element in the English translation of Legolas's name.

Second, I discovered that ae is supposed to be pronounced as a long "i" (kind of) in Tolkien's words. I have no idea if this applies everywhere, but when I put it in the pronounciation I ended up with "Lie"-golas. Then, playing around the dialect Tolkien wrote of, it became "Le"-golas again. Realizing on which syllable I was placing the emphasis, it sounded less like "leg o'lamb" and more like "L(ay)gol-la(z)."
I have no idea where this idea is going, maybe someone else can pick up where I left off.

The third thing I came up with after breaking it down were other Sindarin words with "ae" or preferably "aeg" in them OR with "las" or "olas" in them. Here's what I found:
maeg-"sharp; piercing" Looking at it this way- possibly a reference to eyesight? This is also seen in the eyesight of the other Legolas in Gondolin(?).
dae- "shadow" I almost eliminated this one because of the "d."
falas- "shore, line of surf" Possibly a reference to Legolas's future love for the sea?
gaer- "sea" If not for the meaning, I would have eliminated this one. But when I found the previous "falas", I changed my mind.
lad- "plain, valley" Similar to "las," but no reference I could thing of except for the matching syllable of "Imladris."
ras- "horn" Also similar to "as," but again no reference other than the match in "Caradhras."

That's all I found, maybe someone else has ideas.

Or maybe the joke's on us this time. Maybe Toklien created a name with little to other linguistic meaning than his own translation for his own amusement.

Or, maybe my Bawston smilies/smile.gif accent is getting n the way of proper pronunciation of...everything.

[Finwe]

"theod" means "people" in Rohirric, so the name "Theoden" actually means something like "People-King" or "Chieftain". That and the prefix "Eo-" is a very common thing in Rohirric names.

I also think that in the case of Elrond, his name provided a lot of insight into his character. In the most recent "version" of Quenya, "rond" or "rondo" means "cave." Elrond's name could mean something like "Starry Cave" or "Star Cave." I always imagined Elrond's eyes as caves of wisdom and the color of stars.

Galadriel's name doesn't quite mean "Light-lady." In fact, it is the Sindarin equivalent of Quenya Altariel, Telerin Alatariel, and Primitive Elvish Nalatarigelle. It means "Maiden Crowned with a Bright Garland." It quite obviously refers to her hair. In her youth in Aman, Galadriel was a bit of a tomboy. For races and competitions like that, she bound up her hair in a kind of crown about her head, which was where she got her "nickname." The prevalent theme of light where she is concerned also refers to her status as the last Great One in Middle-earth. She was the last, and greatest, of the Elves who had come from Aman, and it is said that in their faces, the light of the Two Trees was still present.

Glorfindel's name, which means "Golden Haired One" also could have a long history. In Quenya, his name is Laurefindil, which can also mean "Golden-Hair-Servant." Subscribing to the theory that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Imladris were one and the same, Glorfindel could have indeed served one of "Golden-Hair," Idril. She is always described as having golden hair, and I can imagine that Glorfindel was a close friend of hers, or at least a sort of self-appointed guardian of her and her family.

[the guy who be short]

Legolas is sindarin for Grenleaf. But you want linguistic puns, right? hm...
Well, this isnt quite an intended pun, but have you seen the LotR lego sets? LEGOlas? I laughed when i saw them, but that was definitely unintended.

[Telchar]

Rina Said:
Also, Gimli's name is similar to gimlet, which is apparently a small tool for carving, yet is also used to mean piercing.

We all get wiser, thanks - I always thought that a gimlet was just a bloody good drink ;o)

[ June 18, 2003: Message edited by: Telchar ]

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I've always wondered about a possible connection between the Norse troublemaker, Loki (who was associated with fire, I believe), and the Uruloki, the firebreathing pests of Middle-Earth.

[Cúdae]

Good point, Sophia! I had never thought of Loki and the Uruloki...

On a side note- if you pronounce Glaurung as "Gl-OW-rung," it sounds an awful lot like "glowering." Do dragons (or very large worms) glower? Or, rather, can they glower?

[Daisy Brambleburr]

Here is a thought. I read somewhere that a gimlet was a tool for boreing holes into pieces of wood. Is Tolkien implying that Gimli was very boring, and bored holes into peoples heads (metaphorically of course).

Lol, probably not.

[Guinevere]

Here is something interesting about the origin of the names of Elrond and Elros which I found in letter 211 :
"*rondo was a primitive Elvish word for "cavern" (Cf Nargothrond, Aglarond etc) *rosse meant "dew, spray" (of fall or fountain).
Elrond and Elros, children of Eärendil(Sea-lover) and Elwing (Elf-foam), were so called, because they were carried off by the sons of Fëanor.(...) The infants were not slain, but left like "babes in the wood", in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance. There they were found: Elrond within the cave, and Elros dabbling in the water."
so they weren't named so by their parents!

And here something about Frodo and Pippin,from letter 168:
Peregrin is, of course, a real modern name, though it means "traveller in strange countries".
Frodo is a real name from the Germanic tradition. Its Old English form was Fróda. Its obvious connexion is with the old word "fród" meaning etymologically "wise by experience", but it had mythological connexions with legends of the Golden Age in the North..."
And here is what Tolkien wrote about Gimli's name (letter 297)
As stated in the Appendices the "outer" public names of the northern Dwarves were derived from the language of men in the far north NOT from the variety represented by AngloSaxon, and in consequence are given Scandinavian shape.(...) A-S will have nothing to say about GIMLI. Actually the poetic word "gim" in archaic Old Norse verse is probably not related to "gimm"(an early loan from latin "gemma") though possibly it was later associated with it: its meaning seems to have been "fire".

Nearly every name has a meaning, but for us who are not Philologists its easy to draw wrong deductions!

[ June 19, 2003: Message edited by: Guinevere ]

[Finwe]

Actually, I'm surprised that the whole Elrond/Elros discovery slipped my mind. That did indeed play a great part in their naming. I think that Elros's name can also be taken a little deeper. His name means "Star-foam." Waves have foam don't they? Elros became the King of the Mariner-Kingdom, Numenor. Perhaps Tolkien wanted to "prepare" him for his later role.
Another reason why both Elrond and Elros' names start with "El-" is that, considering the theory that it was Earendil himself who named them before leaving on the Quest of Eldamar (as I like to call it), and wanted to keep their names close to that of their mother, Elwing. He also probably wanted to keep their names close to those of Elwing's lost brothers, Elured and Elurin, and of Elu Thingol, the King of the Sindar. After all, the little twins had quite a lineage.

[Samwise Gamgee]

Galadriel I always thought meant "tree-lady" because the "-iel" part means lady and the Galadrim were tree people. But that is not based on fact - just an assumption.

Also - I don't know if this is the right thread for this, but some puns that I noticed in the book were

1) Faramir is guessing to Frodo about an heirloom, and Frodo tells him he is near the mark, but not in the GOLD!

2) Sam's "the sooner I stop talking the sooner I drop off" speech - those always amused me a lot, and I find more puns as I read the books!

[Albert Speer]

Yes, you can certainly haev some fun with names as a linguist. Of course he ahs used his knowledge in nordic languages. Look at the map at southwest Gondor. There you will find adn area with the name 'Langstrand' which in Swedish (the fair lagnuage smilies/wink.gif), Danish and Norwegian means: Long beach or shore. There is, of course more examples liek this. Isengard is one example. ISen is both the river, but also the word for ice in definite form, gard means anything from a farm to a house in the countyrside. Moreover, the word Took is very similar to the word "tok" which indicates a person that is a little nuts! You could certainly say that about teh Tooks, as they are described in the Hobbit, and the Tookish partof the Baggins's minds is a little nuts too.

The thing that to me represents the linguistic beauty in anything is the order of words. You can use the same words as in a beautiful texts in anotehr terxt, that's the point of them, yet you cannot guarantee that the beauty is maintained. The position fo commas and order of the words adn "satser" (grammatical parts of a sentence). This is what he is best at and what you can see has been lost a little in Silmarillion from HoME and LoTR.

My humble opinion.

[Finwe]

Actually Sam, her name "Galadriel" means "Maiden Crowned With a Bright Garland." The name that you are thinking of is "Galadhriel" ("Tree-maiden") to which her name was sometimes altered. Also, her people are called the Galadhrim "Tree-People," not Galadrim, which would mean "Light-people." That seems to describe the Vanyar better.

[Rumil]

I think there are two sides to Tolkien's liguistic riddles and name meanings.

First of all, the meaning of the name in the 'invented' languages of Middle Earth, which I'd imagine those into learning Sindarin etc. could clarify.

Secondly, and more mysteriously, is the question of why Tolkien chose the words he did for his invented languages. I feel that they tend to convey some meaning on (what is for us poor non-philologists) a subconcious level. Sindarin, especially, often has words which seem to convey a meaning before you find out what their Tolkien definition is, perhaps this is due to its partial derivation from Welsh, (for me anyway!). I think that one of Tolkien's greatest skills was to invent names and words which sound 'right', I'm sure that many of us have read lesser works of fantasy or sci-fi where the names seem faintly ridiculous, or have tried to write RPG scenarios which suffer from the same problem.

[Frodo Baggins]

ok here we go

Galadriel "Galad" this comes from the root "cal" or "gal" it means "shine" With Galadriel her name was often corrupted to "Galadhriel" but these two words have NO connection between Galad and galadh meaning "tree". in Quenya, Galadriel is Alatariel. Alata meaning 'radiance' and riel "garlanded maiden". Loose translation, "madien crowned with a radiant garland" a reference to her hair.

Glorfindel. Glor is Sindarin(I believe) foe gold or golden. Fin or findel is hair. Glor-findel "golden haired"

Now, wierdly enough, thre's a strange story behing the name of Elrond. According to elvish lore ele was the primitive word "behold" used when the elves first saw the stars. Thusly 'el' or "elen" is Quenya for star (gil being Sindarin). Also according to lore "Eldar" means "People of the stars' and was givien to them by Orome. This word described all kindreds. the Sindarin for elf was Edhil or Edhel. Now, I learned that El-wing meant "star spray" from the starlight that shone throught the waterfall on the night she was born. "El" could mean "Elf' in Sindarin and "star" in Quenya "Rond is essentially the same in either tongue, a vaulted or arched roof wich could b applied to the dome of the sky. "El-rond" Elf of the cave as called by Gil-Galad and Cirdan. Or perhapes the starry dome of the heavens?

[Morquesse]

Interesting discussion! smilies/smile.gif

When I first read LotR, the only way I remembered Legolas' name was because I thought of 'LEGOlas'. Now I think of 'Legless'. smilies/tongue.gif

To be technically correct, the Old English word for 'Horse' is 'eoh', not 'eo' but any way. smilies/smile.gif
Eorl, the ancester of the Rohan people, is the old english word for 'noble'.

And there is more stuff I found out about Pippin's names. 'Pippin' is a word of old slang meaning 'a person or thing much admired'. Peregrine is a word that can mean alian or strange (or as I believe they put in the Thesaurus,'weird one'), exotic, traveler or pilgrim. smilies/wink.gif

~M

[Samwise Gamgee]

Also, and I think this is probably what was meant by pippin, Pip is an apple seed and "pippin" is an apple - so he is small. That is a more british thing though, I believe.


Also, I think with the name Frodo meaning anything, after reading some of The History of Middle earth, I don't think the hobbit names have significance. The original Frodo was Bingo Bolger-Baggins (for a LONG time too) and Frodo was another character - a cross between Sam and Pippin, really.

[Miriel Silraen Linalda]

One of the Rohan names I find interesting is Hama, which means home in Old English. Hama was the man in charge of screening guests to the Golden Hall, and was, in a sense, helping with the home.

[Lord of Angmar]

I think that we should look at Tolkien's words not in a sense of breaking down what they mean but instead we should think about how they sound. All the words and names have an aesthetic appeal and the personalities of characters can be guessed by reading their names. The elves have fluid names that roll of the tongue, which denotes their harmony with the world and their ability to adapt. The dwarves have sharp, angular words, often consisting of many K's, B's, D's and Th's. When reading their words, their is no fluidity or continuum of sound (Khazad-dum, Azanulbizar, etc.) , which in many ways reflects their temper: no fluidity. They are quick to anger, and their mood can change as quickly as the weather. Tolkien's ability to create words that sound like what they describe was a valuable asset in his writing.

[akhtene]

Just found this in a dictionary.
A road closed at one end is called French fashion cul-de-sac which means the bottom of the sack. Or Bag-End , doesn't it?

Here's a phrase I love very much (Sam remembers the Gaffer's saying) "Whenever you open your big mouth you put your foot in it" , that is speak without thinking first. Just try visualising it smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[Neferchoirwen]

Bilbo sounds like biblios, which is Greek for "book."

Books signify an education, which Bilbo was already equiped with. And quite obviously, Bilbo is the author of The Red Book of Westmarch, the book that is supposed to actually bring US the entire story of The Lord of The Rings.

[Rimbaud]

I've always seen Legolas and Gimli as gentle puns, one describing the Elven Casanova's flaxen legs, the other harking at gimlets.

Dry, twist of lemon.

[Måns]

Hmmm, something just crossed my mind, in the 7th century C.E. there was a Kign of the Franks, I think that he was of Merovingian descent and his name was Pepin. What makes this interesting is that he had the by-name the Short; thus Pepin the Short! In my language which is related to the Germanic language spoken in France at the time (before the latin in the form of, Lingua Romana rustica reclaimed the area) Pepin is Pippin!

Måns

[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]

[Sharkû]

That's because the name is just a translation of a real Westron hobbit name, cf. Appendix F II:
"In some old families, especially those of Fallohide origin such as the Tooks and the Bolgers, it was, however, the custom to give high-sounding first-names. Since most of these seem to have been drawn from legends of the past, of Men as well as of Hobbits, and many while now meaningless to Hobbits closely resembled the names of Men in the Vale of Anduin, or in Dale, or in the Mark, I have turned them into those old names, largely of Frankish and Gothic origin, that are still used by us or are met in our histories."

The fact that everything in the books which is English, or in a language related to it, is just supposed to be a translation should always be considered.

[Elennar Starfire]

A wierd thought:

El=god
rond-sounds like "round"

So Elrond=round god

smilies/rolleyes.gif smilies/evil.gif

Barliman Butterbur

has four words in it. Barley, man, butter, and beer. this sort of makes sense, considering that he's an innkeeper.

[ July 11, 2003: Message edited by: Elennar Starfire ]

[littlemanpoet]

Barliman Butterbur - hee hee! I like how you turned it into 'beer'. I always mentally stuck an extra 'r' on the end of bur - so though he's wholesome as butter, he's 'burr' rough around the edges.

Aragorn - arid; dried out? The 'g' makes him harsh. Compare his name to his father's - Arathorn - 'dry thorn' - makes him dry - and hardened - horn? which when you pull in the Hebrew analogy for 'horn' you get 'strength'. Dry, hardened strength. That's a bit of a reach, of course, but who knows?

Have at it! smilies/smile.gif

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Tolkien's linguistic puns and games are indeed a fascinating feature of his writing. Unfortunately most of those jokes require explanation for the likes of us to understand them, so extensive was his philological learning. The following are examples of which I'm particularly fond.

Writing about The Hobbit for an English newspaper, Tolkien explained the origin of Smaug's name: The dragon bears as a name - a pseudonym - the past tense of the primitive Germanic verb Smugan, to squeeze through a hole: a low philological jest.(Letter #25, to the editor of the Observer)

Then there's the case of the Withywindle. The following is from Shippey's J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century, and follows a quotation of the passage from The Old Forest that describes the river. If Tolkien had left his study in Northmoor Road, walked back to the University Parks, crossed the 'Rainbow Bridge', and then walked along the other side of the river away from the town of Oxford in the direction of the villages of Wood Eaton and Water Eaton - as no doubt he did - he would have seen virtually the same sight: the slow, muddy, lazy river fringed with willows. The real river, the one that flows into the Thames at Oxford, is the Cherwell. The Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names gives a different derivation, but Tolkien was always capable of rejecting the advice of Oxford dictionaries. I think he derived the name from Old English *cier-welle, the first element coming from cierran, 'to turn to': so, 'the turning stream', 'the winding stream', which is what the Cherwell is... Further down the Thames, furthermore, is Windsor, which may take its name from *windels-ora, 'the place on the winding stream'. Finally, withy is simply the old word for 'willow', frequent in English place-names, like the Warwickshire Withybrook. The Withywindle is a combination of the Cherwell itself, and words for its two main features, its willows and its slowly-twisting course.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I think this thread is worth raising from its second-page exile, if only for the airing of my new signature. Again I'm indebted to Professor Shippey for pointing out that the word 'okshen' means 'mess' in the Huddersfield dialect. Hence, he notes, Bilbo returns to Bag End at the conclusion of The Hobbit to find both an auction and a mess.

What I find much more amusing, though, is the description of the prices fetched by various items in said sale: It was now nearly lunchtime, and most of the things had already been sold, for various prices from next to nothing to old songs (as is not unusual at auctions)The range in prices could not have been very wide if the most expensive items were 'going for a song'!

[doug*platypus]

Back to the topic of puns, Fredegar's last name of Bolger (meaning, something that bulges?!) makes him a likely candidate for the nickname Fatty. Although I should point out that most of the puns mentioned in this thread are from our own invention, and probably not Tolkien's. With LOTR in so many languages now, there's bound to be some very funny stuff out there.

It's quite ironic that Pippin is actually the merry one, too! I guess we don't all have to do exactly what our names tell us to. Otherwise the Dark Lord might have wanted to soar on (yes, I know that's not the correct pronunciation) like an eagle, instead of plotting and scheming. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Joy]

Bumping this back to the top :)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

From The Etymologies (The Lost Road and Other Writings).
Thōn- Ilk. thôn pine-tree. N. thaun pl. thuin is probably an early loan-word, with Ilk. ō treated as ON ō < ã*. Ilk. Dor-thonion 'Land of Pines', name of mountainous forest. N. of Doriath and afterwards becoming Taur-na-Fuin, a punning alteration of Dor-na-thuin (Noldorin translation of Ilk. Dor-thonion)

* I have used ã here to represent an 'a' with macron, which I couldn't seem to replicate on my machine. Squatter's note.

[Rilwen Gamgee]

"Incánus", as Gandalf was known to the South, reminds me of "incantation":

n. Ritual recitation of verbal charms or spells to produce a magical effect.

Obviously, very self-explanatory. ;)

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Beorn is the most obvious example of Tolkien's wordplay that I can think of. It means "man, noble, hero, warrior ..." in Old English, but originally meant "bear" according to Christopher Tolkien. Modern Swedish and Norwegian björn means "bear".



I found this myself in 'Description of the Island of Númenor' which I thought was a bit suspicious:

Vëantur, venturer?

In a way Vëantur was the first 'venturer' of Númenor: When six hundred years had passed from the beginning of the Second Age Vëantur, Captain of King's Ships under Tar-Elendil, first achieved the voyage to Middle-earth. He brought his ship Entulessë (which signifies "Return") into Mithlond on the spring winds blowing from the west; and he returned in the autumn of the following year. Thereafter seafaring became the chief enterprise for daring and hardihood among the men of Númenor; and Aldarion son of Meneldur, whose wife was Vëantur's daughter, formed the Guild of Venturers, in which were joined all the tried mariners of NúmenorVëantur probably means something entirely different translated, though.



PM, 'The Problem of ros': It is also unfortunate that the first [the -ros in 'Elros'] appears too reminiscent of Latin rōs ['dew'] or Greek drosos, and the latter [the -ros in 'Maedhros' and 'Amros'] too close to well-known modern European 'red' words: as Latin russus, Italian rosso, English russet, rust, etc. However, the Elvish languages are inevitably full of such reminiscences, so that this is the lesser difficulty. That sounds as if almost all of such reminiscences exist by accident; that Tolkien could not help that many words ended up similar to modern words or he did not care, or perhaps he used modern words as inspiration for some of his invented words and therefore they are similar.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Neithan, Túrin's name among the Gaurwaith, sounds like English 'Nathan'.

[littlemanpoet]

I thought Nathan was short for Nathaniel, which I thought was a Hebrew word (one of Jesus' twelves disciples, for example). Or is it an English name that was used to represent a Hebrew name? That would be the same kind of thing as has occurred with the names, James and Jacob (for example, the Jacobite rebellion which supported the claim of James to the throne of England). Not much to do with LotR in this post, I'm afraid, but I was hoping someone could clarify this for me.

[Elianna]

littlemanpoet:
Nathan can be short for Nathaniel 'gift of God', or by itself meaning 'gift'. It is a Hebrew name. Nathaniel was one of Jesus' diciples, and Nathan was a prophet during King David's reign. I think what Ardamir meant was that Nathan was a normal name in English-speaking countries.

Anyway, back to LotR:

As I read RotK, I noticed a translation of a name that Tolkien had actually worked into the text when Éowyn/Dernhelm was fighting the Witch-King.
But the helm of her secrecy had fallen from her...

Dernhelm means literally 'secret-helm' or 'helm of secrecy'. I love it! It's not funny per se, but it gets a "ha! isn't that interesting?" from me. It's more like a riddle, not as easy as "the White Mountains of Ered Nimrais."

Have any of you found hidden translations like this?

[Mithalwen]

Although the standard transltion of Legolas is "Green Leaf" there is a good punning alternative - Laigo = sharp/ acute and L(h)as = ears a pointy eared bow-twanger indeed..

[littlemanpoet]

Boromir and Faramir.

I can't imagine that Tolkien thought this way: boring pond and faraway pond. Faramir always has struck me as the more feminine of the two names.

More likely, he was after Boromir as a forceful boar (or bore?); Faramir as farsighted?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

While poring over hobbit family trees, researching for something I want to write, I discovered something I find very amusing. The three fabulous Took sisters have four syllable names each, but they are made up of a total of only six syllables. That means each sister has two syllables from each of the others! Their names form a chain, so to speak: Belladonna, Donnamira, Mirabella. Belladonna has been mentioned as the deadly nightshade; I'm not sure yet whether the other two names have a botanic meaning. In German, "Mirabelle" is a yellow plum. So far, my searching for further meaning has not yielded any results.

[Farmira]

Well simply put... if we translated it very vaugly...

*bella* donna = *night* shade
Donna mirra = shade yellow?
Mirra *bella* = yellow *night* ?

Well a plum is dark in color... and maybe the color just before night?? I doubt if tolkien dove this deep into thinking about all of this... but maybe bella could be translated as "night" or "plum"...
... maybe im completely wrong... but if the chain is meant to be translated literally... i guess that would be the closest thing to it... :(

[Guinevere]

Well, literally "bella donna " means" beautiful woman" in Italian!
(Hence the name of the deadly nightshade "atropa belladonna"; it was used in small quantities to dilate the eye-pupils... (and is still medically used for that purpose)

[akhtene]

For some time I've been wondering over the following question - was Tolkien familiar with Russian and could he make use of some Russian words?

While reading UT I came across the word DRUG. In Russian it means friend or companion - just the role that the Druedain were playing for the folk of Haleth.

In a couple of names there is a stem VORON that is like raven, a bird that serves as messenger of gods - sounds true in case of Voronwe.

Anyway, is there something in all that? :rolleyes:

[Elianna]

Tolkein had a "working knowledge" of Russian, so it's possible that he meant to do those things.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I happened to be reading through The Saga-Book of the Viking Society for Northern Research a few weeks ago, and came across an interesting article that seems pertinent to this discussion. The paper, by the Reverend E. Maule Cole, appears in the fourth volume of the journal, which covers the years 1904-5, and would therefore have been available to Tolkien even in his undergraduate years. [1]

At the time of writing, Rev. Cole had been the vicar of Wetwang in the East Riding of Yorkshire for some forty years, and had often been asked to explain the origins of the name. His conclusions would almost certainly have interested Tolkien, and it could be that the interesting dichotomy between the name and nature of the parish might have inspired him to use it in a more appropriate context in The Lord of the Rings.

In Old English, to quote the great Professor W.W. Skeat, "Wet's wet and Wang's a field, and there you are." But Wetwang in Yorkshire, as Rev. Cole points out, is on a chalk ridge, fifty feet above the bottoms of the dales on either side. It is so dry that in a report on the manor made to Lord Bathurst by his steward in the early eighteenth century, which Rev. Cole quotes in his paper, "Water is here much wanted. There is a pond in ye Town supply'd only by rainwater, wch in dry Summers affords none, and then the Inhabitants are obliged to drive their Cattle three miles for water."

However, as Cole points out, in Old Icelandic there is a compound word 'Vœtt-vangr' or 'Vétt-vangr', from 'vætti' ('witness', 'testimony') or 'va'ttr' (a witness), and the compound is a legal term, basically meaning a place to which one was summoned when accused of an offence; 'vettvang' being the area within a bowshot of the place in all directions. According to Cole, then, the Yorkshire place-name derives from a Norse system of trial by one's peers, which may or may not have been the origin of the English and Scottish systems of trial by jury.

I think that the idea of a place, the name of which can be translated as 'Wet field', but which is actually so dry that the well is useless in hot summers, might have appealed to Tolkien. On the other hand, he may never have read this article and the name of the marshes south of the Emyn Muil may simply be derived from the Old English phrase for a wet field. In either case a certain amount of irony is implied, but I like to think that he had come across the article during the course of his studies in Norse literature and put a reference to it into his story for personal amusement.
___

[1] Rev. E. Maule Cole, M.A., F.G.S.: 'On the Place-name Wetwang'. Saga-Book of the Viking Society for Northern Research (http://www.shef.ac.uk/viking-society/) IV (1904-5), 102-6

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks for digging that up, Squatter. What a delightful pair of possibilities! Thanks for the link, too. The top of a hill as you speak of it, seems a likely spot for a jury style council. Vetvang.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I picked up a copy of Mark T. Hooker's collection of essays A Tolkienian Mathomium at Oxonmoot this year, and I've very much enjoyed reading it despite the harsh light it threw on my ignorance. Hooker is a professional linguist and gives an interesting insight into the workings of Tolkien's jokes. I'll give some examples from his essays below by way of a taster.

In 'The Linguistic Landscape of Tolkien's Shire', Hooker examines the place-name Dwaling. Now, as any fule kno, -ing in an English place-name usually indicates the home of people descended from a common ancestor: hence Reading (Readingum = 'Settlement of Réada's people'), Nottingham (Snotengaham = 'Settlement of Snot's People'). Hooker suggests that in Dwaling, the first component of the name (the personal name of the tribe's original founder) is a shortened form of Dwalakoneis, which is just the Gothic form of 'Tolkien'. Hence 'Tolkien's people' or 'ancestral home of Tolkien's people'. Looking at a map of the Shire, Dwaling would be some distance north-north-west of Buckland, which in the real world is south-south-west of Evesham in Worcestershire. Tolkien associated his Suffield ancestors with Evesham, and his brother ran a fruit farm there for many years. One of the significant landmarks of this area is Bredon Hill (Bree-dún = 'Hill-hill'), which contains the same element that gave Bree its name.

Hooker devotes an entire essay to explaining the derivation of Carrock. He reveals this to be an anglicised form of Welsh carreg, which means 'stone', 'rock' or 'escarpment'. One famous carreg in the Black Mountains of Carmarthenshire is Carreg Cennen (http://www.greatcastlesofwales.co.uk/carreg_foto.htm), which has a castle on it that some legends say was founded by one of King Arthur's knights. Hooker takes these two facts (and various topographical similarities between Beorn's Carrock and the Welsh location) and then throws in a good joke. If, following the usual pattern of such words in Welsh, we make a compound out of the Welsh for 'bear' (arth) and the Welsh for 'man' (gwr), we get arthwr.

The very hills are laughing on Tolkien's maps.

[Eönwë]

Just found this in a dictionary.
A road closed at one end is called French fashion cul-de-sac which means the bottom of the sack. Or Bag-End , doesn't it?

Now that is a good find.


Aragorn - arid; dried out? The 'g' makes him harsh. Compare his name to his father's - Arathorn - 'dry thorn' - makes him dry - and hardened - horn? which when you pull in the Hebrew analogy for 'horn' you get 'strength'. Dry, hardened strength. That's a bit of a reach, of course, but who knows?
If I'm not mistaken the hebrew word for horn can also mean "beam" as in "a beam of light"....
... "A light from the shadows shall spring," eh?



edit- Woo! 1000th post! Utúlie'n aurë!

[Eönwë]

Also, gimel is the third letter of the Hebrew alphabet, but I don't know what it means or if it fits in.

But isn't it always Aragorn (1), Legolas (2), and Gimli (3). I always think of them in that order anyway. And even in the movies they place them in that in order in the CoE

I have discovered something interesting. The last half of Theoden's name is reminiscent of Odin or Woden, the supreme Norse god. Also, the last part of Denethor's name is like Thor, the Norse God of thunder. I wonder if Tolkein did this purposely.

So Theoden is more in power than Denethor? Anyway, Theoden is a king, whereas Denether is just a steward.

The third thing I came up with after breaking it down were other Sindarin words with "ae" or preferably "aeg" in them OR with "las" or "olas" in them. Here's what I found:
maeg-"sharp; piercing" Looking at it this way- possibly a reference to eyesight? This is also seen in the eyesight of the other Legolas in Gondolin(?).
dae- "shadow" I almost eliminated this one because of the "d."

Or maybe the 'dae' bit could be a reference to Mirkwood.

And the Old English word 'mægþ' (pronounced magth, I think) can mean a clan (with Aragorn and Gimli?), race (Elves?), or kindom (mirkwood again?)

Maybe I'm just stretching things a bit on this one.

Eomer and Eowyn. This one´s sort of far fetched, but not very. They both share "Eo-" which indicates they´re very close. But now it´s interesting: EoWYN is spoken like "to win". An indication that she will indeed "win renown", which she obviously wants. EoMER however is spoken like EoMARE. A mare is a female horse. Eomer comes from Rohan. Rohan is famous for horses. Makes sense, doesn´t it?

'Eoh' is OE for 'horse'. So maybe Eomer is "horse-mare" or even "horse-horse" just to emphasize the Rohan-ishness.



The there's this whole Galad/Galadh thing. People say they're not related but I think they are. Remeber, the Two Trees=Light. Makes sense. Later on, Galadriel is has the "galad" for light, but her people are the "galadhrim" which are connected to trees. So maybe light and treesare meant to go together in Tolkien's wors.



Then again, I think it is in UT that CT meantions some of these. I'll have to go and fins the relevant quotes.

[Eönwë]

Galadriel "Galad" this comes from the root "cal" or "gal" it means "shine" With Galadriel her name was often corrupted to "Galadhriel" but these two words have NO connection between Galad and galadh meaning "tree". in Quenya, Galadriel is Alatariel. Alata meaning 'radiance' and riel "garlanded maiden". Loose translation, "madien crowned with a radiant garland" a reference to her hair.

On reading 'alata' I immediately thought of Alatar (the Blue Wizard, not the downer -though that was my first thought:rolleyes:). Maybe he's hinting that Alatar actually did do something good.
But that's not a pun, is it? The two are not related. Or are they? Is there something similar or connecteing them except coming out of the west?

[Alfirin]

A few others,
Pippin's real name "Peregrin" of course sound a lot like "Peregrine" which is a type of falcon (perhaps indicating the brave warrior spirt under his peacuf hobbit outside) Re-enforcing thins is the fact that as I recall Peregrin's Father, the Thain was named Paladin which is a type of knight (I looked it up and technically it appers to refer to a knight of Charlemagne) and Pippin does end up a Knight of Gondor.
As a final double pun consider Theodens residence, Meduseld. This is usally translated (at least by Tolkein) as "Golden Hall". But of course "Med-" is also the orgin of the word "mead" and of course the center of any good Northern type village was the "mead hall" (which as I understand usally was the Cheiftans house) So Meduself becomes both "The Golden Hall" and "The Hall where evyone drinks their mead"

Speaking of Drink, I beive that somewhere its said that the Name of the Brandywine river is the result of a lingustic change in Hobbit from "Barad-nin" (Border water) to Barad-him (strong ale). (Thog if this is the case, I wonder whay the River is called the Brandywine and not the Barleywine, after all Brandy is not ale, and come to think of it I'm not enitirely sure the ME even knows about distillation yet)

[Galin]

(...) 'Eoh' is OE for 'horse'. So maybe Eomer is "horse-mare" or even "horse-horse" just to emphasize the Rohan-ishness.

I think Éomer means 'horse-famous (famous horseman)', while Éowyn means 'Horse-joy'. These are intended as Anglo-Saxon based translations of their 'real' names, which we do not know (in full anyway).

The there's this whole Galad/Galadh thing. People say they're not related but I think they are. Remeber, the Two Trees=Light. Makes sense. Later on, Galadriel is has the "galad" for light, but her people are the "galadhrim" which are connected to trees. So maybe light and treesare meant to go together in Tolkien's wors.

There's an essay published over at the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship: Light and Tree, A Survey Through the External History of Sindarin, by Helios De Rosario Martínez. It's in depth and maybe some might be interested (see the Tengwestie link over at E.L.F.org). I'm going to read it again in any case.

As an annoying spelling note concerning Alfirin's post: that should be Branda-nîn 'Border-water' and Bralda-hîm 'heady ale' (pun of the name).

Though *Barad-nen could be Sindarin ;)

[Alfirin]

I think Éomer means 'horse-famous (famous horseman)', while Éowyn means 'Horse-joy'. These are intended as Anglo-Saxon based translations of their 'real' names, which we do not know (in full anyway).



There's an essay published over at the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship: Light and Tree, A Survey Through the External History of Sindarin, by Helios De Rosario Martínez. It's in depth and maybe some might be interested (see the Tengwestie link over at E.L.F.org). I'm going to read it again in any case.

As an annoying spelling note concerning Alfirin's post: that should be Branda-nîn 'Border-water' and Bralda-hîm 'heady ale' (pun of the name).

Though *Barad-nen could be Sindarin ;)

Oops, I;m sorry must have been reading too fast when I copied hence the mistakes (also my keyboar doesnt seem to be able to put the carats over the "i"'s at last not when I'm online)

[Morthoron]

A few others,
Pippin's real name "Peregrin" of course sound a lot like "Peregrine" which is a type of falcon (perhaps indicating the brave warrior spirt under his peacuf hobbit outside) Re-enforcing thins is the fact that as I recall Peregrin's Father, the Thain was named Paladin which is a type of knight (I looked it up and technically it appers to refer to a knight of Charlemagne) and Pippin does end up a Knight of Gondor.

The use of pompous names are a hallmark of some families of Hobbits (particularly the upper class Tooks and Brandybucks). Some are of Welsh origin: Madoc, Caradoc, Gordobac etc. Some are Frankish: Isengrim, Pippin, Odo, Otho, Paladin, Hildibrand, etc. Some are even Latinate or Continental European: Gerontius, Donnamira, Mirabella, Ferdinand, Belladonna, Sigismond and Fortinbras (also the Prince of Norway in Shakespeare's Hamlet).

Speaking of Drink, I beive that somewhere its said that the Name of the Brandywine river is the result of a lingustic change in Hobbit from "Barad-nin" (Border water) to Barad-him (strong ale). (Thog if this is the case, I wonder whay the River is called the Brandywine and not the Barleywine, after all Brandy is not ale, and come to think of it I'm not enitirely sure the ME even knows about distillation yet)

Actually, in Sindarin it is Baranduin, "golden-brown river", which is the color of brandy (in fact, brandy was usually referred to as brandy-wine in medieval texts). 'Heady Ale' is not pale but more brown in color (but not as dark as stout)...it's all in the color and not the specific alcoholic drink I guess.

[Galin]

To add a bit on Pippin: as already noted peregrine means 'foreign; alien; coming from abroad' or 'wandering, traveling, or migrating' (with respect to the bird, according to some sources the sense may have been a bird 'caught in transit,' as opposed to one taken from the nest). And Pippin can refer to 'any of numerous roundish or oblate varieties of apple.'

In Tolkien's notes on the name Pippin (published in The Peoples of Middle-Earth at least) appear the words raza 'stranger' and razan 'foreign', and it is related that Pippin's name was Razanur Tûc. There is also (same source) a word razar for a small red apple, so Razar 'Pippin', associated with the apple-word, but actually short for Razanur -- which can have the peregrine connection.

BTW Alfirin I was the one being annoying (that's what I meant in case the wording wasn't clear). No need for you to apologize in any case.

:)

[Alfirin]

The use of pompous names are a hallmark of some families of Hobbits (particularly the upper class Tooks and Brandybucks). Some are of Welsh origin: Madoc, Caradoc, Gordobac etc. Some are Frankish: Isengrim, Pippin, Odo, Otho, Paladin, Hildibrand, etc. Some are even Latinate or Continental European: Gerontius, Donnamira, Mirabella, Ferdinand, Belladonna, Sigismond and Fortinbras (also the Prince of Norway in Shakespeare's Hamlet).



Actually, in Sindarin it is Baranduin, "golden-brown river", which is the color of brandy (in fact, brandy was usually referred to as brandy-wine in medieval texts). 'Heady Ale' is not pale but more brown in color (but not as dark as stout)...it's all in the color and not the specific alcoholic drink I guess.

Pompus names remind me what about "Sackville-Baggins". Isn't there a real Engish surname "Sackville-bagg" (or "Bagge"?

On the River, I wasnt questioning the color I was just questioning whether, at the technological level most of ME was at in the Third age, anyone knew what distillation was, given that none of the beverages people are noted as drinking are distilled (no whisky, no eu-de-vie, and most important, no brandy) and whether, if distillation was unknown, naming a river the "Brandywine" might be an bit of an anachronism, since it would be naming it for it resembence to a beverage no one in ME had ever seen.)

[Morthoron]

On the River, I wasnt questioning the color I was just questioning whether, at the technological level most of ME was at in the Third age, anyone knew what distillation was, given that none of the beverages people are noted as drinking are distilled (no whisky, no eu-de-vie, and most important, no brandy) and whether, if distillation was unknown, naming a river the "Brandywine" might be an bit of an anachronism, since it would be naming it for it resembence to a beverage no one in ME had ever seen.)

Well, the Elvish Miruvor is described as a 'cordial' I believe, which indicates it is a liquor or liquer and therefore distilled. But considering were are talking of Hobbits, it may well be anachronistic, unless of course there was a Benedictine monastery nearby Hobbiton.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

Peregrin as mentioned, was a wanderer or outsider to the Romans but said to be the basis of 'pilgrim',

see the Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrinus_(Roman),

Cheers,

Rumil

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Pompus names remind me what about "Sackville-Baggins". Isn't there a real Engish surname "Sackville-bagg" (or "Bagge")?

I've never seen that particular surname, but both Sackville and Bagge turn up in The Oxford Names Companion and a compound of the two names isn't unlikely. These days it's becoming more common for married couples to combine their surnames and adopt the new compound, but in Tolkien's day this was mostly done if the bride's maiden name was more prestigious than her husband's surname, so as to emphasise the family's social connections. The Bagginses are a family of high social standing, so it would make sense for the Sackvilles to have engaged in a spot of onomastic one-upmanship. In England, this sort of thing is considered the hallmark of a socially aspirant middle class, so a double-barrelled surname carries distinct overtones of bourgeois pretension (one seldom encounters such surnames among the higher aristocracy and never among the working class). More damning yet from a Tolkienian perspective is that Sackville is a Norman habitation name (from Saquenville in Eure) and the Normans were the annoying social climbers par excellence: the great-grandsons of Vikings, sporting recent French names and styles for their borrowed cachet and speaking a debased form of French.

Tolkien's antagonism towards the Normans in particular and the French language in general is well documented. In 1910 he addressed the King Edward's School debating society in support of the motion 'This house deplores the occurrence of the Norman conquest'; and according to one of his former students, he once commented in a lecture to cadets: "You see... English was a language that could move easily in abstract ideas when French was still a vulgar Norman patois". I can only imagine that he was speaking of Norman French, which was the English court language from 1066 until Edward III began using English in his official documents more than two centuries later.

Regarding Hobbit names, they seem to have been given, as names are in England today, with no regard for their meaning. Clearly Tolkien enjoyed a joke at the expense of his characters in giving them names with appropriate meanings of which their owners were unaware. Apart from Peregrine, an obvious example would be Frodo, which is related to a Norse word meaning 'wise' and the personal name Froði (ð is always anglicised as d).

The anachronism of Brandywine can be explained by Tolkien's translator conceit. His special note on this name at the end of Appendix F to LR suggests that Brandywine is his own attempt to translate a pun in Westron in terms that would be understood by his English-speaking contemporaries. This doesn't cause the same problems for me as his simile in A Long-Expected Party: "The dragon passed like an express train...", since I don't think that anything in the pre-industrial world is comparable to a steam-powered express. Perhaps in Middle-earth itself the only thing like a dragon passing low overhead is the thing itself.

[EDIT] The names of Gerontius Took's "three remarkable daughters" are all Italian. As mentioned earlier, Belladonna means "beautiful woman", Donnamira means "Remarkable woman" and Mirabella means "Remarkably beautiful". It's interesting that Bilbo's mother is the only one of the three sisters not to have a "remarkable" name.

[Alfirin]

NOW I remember where I heard the name Sackville-Bagg, it, was when I was a kid. When I was a (very young) child I read a group of books about a boy whome made friends with a family of vampires (I look it up it was the My friend, the Vampire series by Angela Sommer-Brondberg) Sackville-Bagg was the Vampire family's surname. It's just one of those hypenated names that always seems to pop up like Neville-Smythe or Donnel-Smith

on distillation another thought occurs. In our world, while distillation was largely unkown in Europe in the Middle Ages, I was well known in the Arab world, hence the world alcohol (it derives from the same word as "khol" (the eye makeup) since that was the first thing made using a refining process simar to distallation and al-khol came into parlance as a word to describe sothing that had been refined to its purest form (hence al-khol of wine). So in ME, maybe distillation is known by the men of Near Harad.

I'm sure someone said this earlier but given who her husband is theres a chuckle in the fact that (for most people) the first thing they think of when the hear the name "belladonna" is the plant (deadly nightshade) not the words "beautiful woman" (though as you point out that is the literal transation. Also isn't mirabella a kind of plum (or is that mirabelle) wonder what color her compexion was? come to think of it when I head the word "bradywine" my first thought is of a large pink fleshed type of tomato.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The names of Gerontius Took's "three remarkable daughters" are all Italian. As mentioned earlier, Belladonna means "beautiful woman", Donnamira means "Remarkable woman" and Mirabella means "Remarkably beautiful". It's interesting that Bilbo's mother is the only one of the three sisters not to have a "remarkable" name.
I find it interesting that the three Took sisters have three names compounded of only three different parts: Bella, Donna, and Mira. Each sister shares a part of her name with each of the others; only the compound is unique. I'm not sure how that fact is significant, but it fascinates me. Apparently they were all remarkably beautiful females! :Merisu:

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I find it interesting that the three Took sisters have three names compounded of only three different parts: Bella, Donna, and Mira. Each sister shares a part of her name with each of the others; only the compound is unique. I'm not sure how that fact is significant, but it fascinates me. Apparently they were all remarkably beautiful females!

Since we know practically nothing about the characters, I don't think we'll ever know if and how that's significant. I suspect that the similarity of the names was deliberate, and that they were chosen for their pleasant effect when spoken - meaning being a minor consideration in Hobbit naming convention. Tolkien may have borrowed an idea from Anglo-Saxon naming convention, in which names were chosen in part because they alliterated with other names borne by members of the same family (usually fathers, grandfathers, etc.), making them easy to fit into poems recording important peoples' ancestors and easy to remember when the poems were recited. Although these names don't alliterate in the modern sense, they are memorable because of their shared components.

Belladonna and Mirabella are both botanical names, the former for Deadly Nightshade as Guinevere pointed out, the latter for the Mirabelle plum (Tolkien preferred Italian to French, so it's not surprising that he'd use an Italian form). Donnamira is the odd one out, since it doesn't refer to any common plant species.

I must admit to a mistake above: mira tends to mean 'wondrous' or 'marvellous' more than 'remarkable' (Lat. mira, mirus). Although that might mean that the sisters were all beautiful, knowing Tolkien's sense of humour they could just as easily have been extremely plain.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

In botanical taxonomy, Mirabella is also associated with a cactus and a member of the four o'clock family. So perhaps one might look at these names as meaning Belladonna had a rather poisonous personality, and Mirabella was either prickly or lazy, inclined to bestir herself only rather late in the day. As Tolkien says that Hobbits were fond of flower names for girls, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he occasionally had such things in mind. :)

[Bêthberry]

Just found this in a dictionary.
A road closed at one end is called French fashion cul-de-sac which means the bottom of the sack. Or Bag-End , doesn't it?

Here's a phrase I love very much (Sam remembers the Gaffer's saying) "Whenever you open your big mouth you put your foot in it" , that is speak without thinking first. Just try visualising it smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

cul also means fesse, as in buttocks, which would mean a kind of 'bum's rush' if Tolkien were given to making jokes at French expense. :D


So perhaps one might look at these names as meaning Belladonna had a rather poisonous personality, and Mirabella was either prickly or lazy, inclined to bestir herself only rather late in the day. As Tolkien says that Hobbits were fond of flower names for girls, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he occasionally had such things in mind

Many of these jokes and puns we are finding seem to be expended on hobbit and Shire names. Is this linguistic funny bone also handed to elven, Rohirrim or Gondorian names? Or is this one of Tolkien's ways of suggesting that the hobbits are indeed the smallest?

[Mister Underhill]

Or is this one of Tolkien's ways of suggesting that the hobbits are indeed the smallest?Smallest? Puns and jokes being "low", eh? Hmm...

Could this be a clue to the nature of hobbit resiliency? Whereas Men and Elves are always falling into despair over this that or the other, hobbits are able to endure even the grimmest of situations by injecting a little humor into them.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Tolkien's jokes in Rohan and Gondor are few and far between. It seems that he restricted his humorous asides to the Shire. I shan't belabour the well-known meanings of many Rohirric names in Old English, but it might be worth mentioning them again: Theoden, Goldwine, Thengel and Walda are all more or less poetic words for 'king', 'lord' or 'ruler' (gold-wine = 'gold-friend'). Eorl is much the same as Norse Jarl (the English word only gained its current meaning during Norse rule in England) and means 'lord' (modern English earl); Fengel means 'prince'. Aldor can mean 'age', but also 'chief', so is doubly applicable, and Gamling contains the element gamol (old age), so probably means 'old man'. The Mark itself has a name that is just a modernisation of OE mærc (mod. Eng. march, 'border land'), and which is probably better known in its Latinate form Mercia.

Other Rohirric names contain horse elements, hence Éowyn, 'horse-joy' (OE eoh, 'war-horse, charger', wyn, 'joy, glory'; Éomer, 'horse-famous' (OE mære, 'great, excellent, distinguished, famous, sublime, etc.') There aren't really any jokes there except for the fact that for most of the Lords of the Mark, the style "[name] King" is a tautology. As for Gondor, since its names are either Sindarin or Adûnaic I'll defer to others who know more about Tolkien's own languages.

So what does this mean? Personally I think that in the Shire and there alone Tolkien felt free to make jokes at the expense of the English. Like the hobbits, we are sitting on thousands of years of history that is still present in the language and more so in names; and like the hobbits, most of us are completely unaware of it. How many people called Alfred really know that their names mean 'Elven-counsel'? How many people called Septimus are seventh sons? Our place-names often reveal layers of ignorance covering a thousand years, so that we have names like Bredon on the Hill ('hill-hill on the hill'), the Bree-land Chetwood ('wood-wood'), and the several rivers in England called River Avon (Welsh afon, 'river'). The Hobbits are out of touch with their past, but their past is still there for those with eyes to see and with a power to affect the present. In Gondor and the Mark, still more so in the realms of the Elves, the inhabitants are more aware of their history, which makes this sort of humour a little more difficult to apply.

[EDIT] cross-posted with Underhill.

[skip spence]

Gamling contains the element gamol (old age), so probably means 'old man'.

In modern Swedish and Norwegian gammal means 'old' and the Danes also use a very similar word. Furthermore, gamling is in Swedish a widely used word for 'old person', more often than not used on men, so for us Swedes Gamling is basically an old man whose name is 'old man'.

[Alfirin]

"gamling" also always reminded me of "gamy" in the British colloquial sense of injured or lame (when referring to a limb) which also fits with the "old and doddering man" image

You referece to Septimus was interesting as I reminded of a musing I once had. Given the general tendecy (at least in European and or western cultures) toward smaller familes I wonder how many people are walking around with the given names Septimus, Octavian (or Octavia) and Decimus (I'm sure there is some name for "nine" but I've just never heard of someone named with it (it would be someting like Nonian or Nonius, right) for whom it is actually accurate. For that matter (in a magic/power sense) how many seventh sons of seventh sons are their still?

[Guinevere]

I always wondered why the Mirkwood spiders were so enraged by Bilbo calling them "Attercop", since I know that "edderkopp" in Norwegian means simply spider.

Here's what I found in the internet:

At´ter`cop
n. 1. A spider.
2. A peevish, ill-natured person.

source: Thefreedictionary.com


attercop
"spider," O.E. attorcoppa, lit. "poison-head," from ator
"poison,"
from P.Gmc. *aitra- "poisonous ulcer" (cf. O.N. eitr, Ger. eiter) +
cop "top, summit, round head," probably also "spider". (cf cobweb)

source: Online Etymology Dictionary

[Morthoron]

I always wondered why the Mirkwood spiders were so enraged by Bilbo calling them "Attercop", since I know that "edderkopp" in Norwegian means simply spider.

Here's what I found in the internet:

Hmmm...perhaps it's like calling a woman a 'broad'. Both are synonymous in the strictest sense, but I know of no woman who prefers to be called one.

I am at work, but I know there is a discussion regarding the term Attercop in The Annotated Hobbit. If no one has access to it, I'll look it up when I get home.

[Bêthberry]

Smallest? Puns and jokes being "low", eh? Hmm...

Could this be a clue to the nature of hobbit resiliency? Whereas Men and Elves are always falling into despair over this that or the other, hobbits are able to endure even the grimmest of situations by injecting a little humor into them.

Hobbits also seem to lack a strong sense of authority or organisation. The Shire is said to be, after all, a sort of self-governing ideal. Comedy seems more likely among those who don't revere authority. Perhaps it is that Rohan and Gondor take themselves too seriously to admit of any undercutting of their authority.

Or that Tolkien's sense of humour could not be directed to such cultures. :D

[Morthoron]

I had forgotten to look up the mentions of Attercop and the other insults Bilbo throws at the spiders in The Annotated Hobbit, so here goes:

Attercop is from the Middle English atter-cop(pe), itself from Old English at(t)or-coppa, "spider" -- it means, literally, "poison head."

The Oxford English Dictionary defines Tomnoddy as "a foolish or stupid person."

Both Lob and Cob are words for "spider." Lob comes from the Middle-English loppe, lop(p), lob (Old English loppe, lobbe). Cob is rare as a separate word and is probably taken from cobweb (Middle-English coppe-web). In the Princess and the Goblin, however, George MacDonald used cob as a word for goblin.

The Annotated Hobbit is a treasure-trove (literally) of linguistic puns. Here is one regarding the name 'Gollum':

Constance B. Hieatt has noted that "Old Norse gull/goll, of which one inflected form would be gollum, means 'gold, treasure, something precious' and can also mean 'ring,' a point which may have occurred to Tolkien.

and another referring to the "An eye in a blue face" riddle in the 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter:

This riddle cleverly expresses the etymology of the word daisy in riddle form. The flower name comes from the Anglo-Saxon dæges eage ("day's eye"), which alludes to the flower's petals opening in the morning (revealing the yellow center) and closing in the evening. Hence it is the "eye of day" or "day's eye" -- the modern daisy.

[Guinevere]

Thank you, Morthoron, that was indeed interesting!

[Thinlómien]

Those who like this thread might also find this one

Words and Names in Tolkien's Work (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=13765)

interesting. It's shorter than this thread, and maybe a bit more serious, but there are some interesting things.

[Beoben]

Hi. Do you have the full text of "'This house deplores the occurrence of the Norman Conquest..." I read it in a Tolkien biography years ago and now need it for a paper I'm writing. Your help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

[punhub85]

So by this logic...
Boromir = Bold
Faramir = Fair
If there was a third, he’d be called Forumir — destined to moderate the great debates of Men.
His weapon? The Banhammer of Númenor.


I was thinking about the names, ‘Boromir’ and ‘Faramir’.

I’m thinking that Tolkien was so comfortable with linguistic ‘laws’ (which may seem quite esoteric to you and me) that he could use them to make linguistic puns, riddles, and jokes. Have you heard of Werner’s and Grimm’s Laws? I forget which is which, but here’s the basic idea: as time passes and the human tongue finds a more smooth way to produce a word, its pronunciation changes.

For example, a ‘b’ sound slides toward a ‘v’ sound (I’m simplifying), which slides toward an ‘f’ sound.

There’s more to it than that, but it’ll serve for what I’m thinking about.

Compare the Latin ‘vulpus’ to the English ‘fox’

(Latin isn’t the direct ancestor of English, but its literary form is older than that of English, and the two languages are related)

Boromir is older than Faramir.

‘Bor’ is reminiscent of the English ‘to bore’ – as in, ‘boring, yawn’, or ‘boring-digging a hole’.
‘mir’ is reminiscent of the English ‘mirror’ or ‘mere’, a water in which one can see clear reflection.
‘Far’ is reminiscent of, well, ‘far=distant’, which suggests far-seeing.

So, Boromir ‘mirrors’, perhaps, forcing the issue?
And Faramir ‘mirrors’, perhaps, far sight?

Do you think Tolkien though out his names on this level?

If so, what do you make of Frodo? Samwise? Pippin/Peregrin? Merry/Meriadoc? Legolas? Gimli? All the rest, such as Denethor, and so forth? And all those hobbit names in the genealogies?

[Pay no attention to this mad scribing: I’m dinging dat Tholgien vaz zo gomvorthavle vid tlinkhwizdig tlawsh dath he goult yewsh dem doo maig tlinkhwizdig bunsh, rrithils, on yoegz.- unless you can tell what the mad scribe is up to? smilies/smile.gif ]

[James the Just]

Four tines: Fork.
Three tines: Threek.
Two tines: Took.