** General Comments on the Project & Sign Up Thread **

[lindil]

This thread is for general questions not answered by the **Intro/FAQ to the Forum/Project thread**

It is also the place for new project members members to sign up.

All of the old sign up posts have been removed from the Intro/FAQ thread and are now in the Misc/Archives thread. Any one who wants to can copy there old posts from there and place it here.

Also current members, if you have a question and it is particular to yourself please PM myself or Aiwendil instead of posting here.

[lindil]

Mhorham posted on another thread Btw, I never did get a login and pass for the other forum, i'd like to have a look around in there though. Who knows, maybe this will revive my interest.

Sincere apologies Mhorham.
I will PM them to you today.

If this should happen to anyone else plese do not hesitate to post here and or PM myself or Aiwendil.

[Galadel Vinorel]

I'm afraid that I did not recieve those either, so could you please P.M. those to me soon as well, lindil? Thanks. smilies/biggrin.gif

[lindil]

testing, please go back about your business....

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well, I'd like to sign up someday. What I couldn't quite discern is whether or not there is a Printable version of what has been done to date.

I know the Silmarillion Proper backwards & forwards, and the Unfinished Tales quite well, having read both over many years, along with bunches of other stuff, but I have only done the Lost Tales among the HoME, so far, and it may take a while to read the rest, unless I quit my job, 'cuz I'm a slow reader with very high recall.

I take the very broadest view in that I only consider something suppressed without clear evidence or contradictions to say that JRRT rejected, in the process of correctly translating the Red Book, of course. But my inclination is to find ways to not really reject very much from The Silmarillion proper and to be content with competing theories (e.g., Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins, etc., for which much is possible, but could only have ever really been known by Morgoth, and he ain't talkin')

The Lost Tales actually provide a lot of very interest detail -- in some cases -- although it reflects a very preliminary understanding by JRRT, and his struggle in figuring out how best to present and introduce the material, but much of it was clearly rejected, too.

Thanks.

[lindil]

Weclome to the Silm Forum Man of the Wold!

Yes if you are a slow reader HoME will take you awhile!

But if you read it chronologically you will win Aiwendil's heart!

I will PM you and we can discuss what has transpired so far.

Currently we have not made any of the project work available on this forum largely because it is all still in process.

FOG is a unique project among the many sub-projects of a new Silmarillion in that the majority of it's expansion comes from Lost Tales instead of UT and HoME 10-12.

I am disregarding for the moment the addition of the 'OF tuor and his coming...' section because that is more less being used as a preface.

So that aside most of the additions do not come from later expansion or later variants but from extremely old and at times extremely incompatible material.

Anyway [God willing] the project will be still here when you are ready, and if not we certainly have left enough scattered material that anyone else attempting it would not be doing so from Square One!

Anyway thanks for posting and letting us know we are being attended to.

Sometimes we/I feel a bit like the Northern Dunedain Rangers!

[lindil]

test again is the forum still alive?

[Alkanoonion]

It is working for me from the main page, looks like it is fixed.
smilies/smile.gif

[Eru]

hello. i read you FAQ thread and might be interested in paticipating in this project. let me know if there is any thing specific that needs to be done. (i work better when i have a set task.)

let me know what you think. i intend to do whatever needs to be done.

-Lenwa

[lindil]

Greetings E! [ sorry calling an Elvish word for God might be a wee bit tricky for me smilies/wink.gif ]

Welcome to Silm project.

I would first off encourage you [ if you have not already done so to read all of the threads marked with **xyz** as they are essential to the current project.

If/once that has been done PM me and we shall proceed on.

Glad to see project oriented folks, that is exactly what we need.

Again E welcome aboard.

[fredd2332]

Hi all!

I been thinking of a revised Sil for quite some time but I knew that I didn't have the skill or the time to do such a thing on my own. But then two weeks ago, I discoved the Barrow-Downs and was pleasently surprised to find that people were in the process of revising the Sil. I would like to help out if I can. I've read the Sil at least 4 times, UT 4 times and HoME 2 times (in order), so I do have an understanding and familiarity with the material. I don't know what I can bring to the project, but I would like to help in some capacity. Thanks,

Frank

[Aiwendil]

Greetings to Man-of-the-Wold, Eru, and Frank. We're always overjoyed to see new people interested in helping. As Lindil said, you might want to start off by reading or at least skimming over some of the more important threads in the forum, particularly those marked with asterisks. We are in the midst of finalizing points for what might be called a final rough draft of the Fall of Gondolin. Right now, the most helpful thing everyone can do is simply to offer comments, suggestions, and discussion on the Fall of Gondolin changes.

[Eru]

um, yeah, i was reading through one of the threads (fall of Gondolin pt. 1), and i need a little help with the teminology.

-Lanwe Fea

[lindil]

A couple of options Lanwe Fea,

#1 read the original threads [Fall of Gondolin a Project?, Bye Bye balrogs , and Mechanical monsters] first; these should provide the proper context for the many abbreviations we have begun to take for granted.

#2 if it is a limited # of questions stick them up here and someone will help you with them.

And greetings to Frank Glass -

as Aiwendil suggested go through the **'d threads and them PM Aiwendil or myself and we can get you going.

[hehehe]

Salutations to all of you-as you may have guessed I'm a newcomer here smilies/smile.gif I'm intrigued by this edition to the forum and I just want all of you to know-I wish to join it too someday...

[lindil]

Welcome tho the Downs and the Silm forum the Last Battle!

Don't worry - the project will be going on for quite some time.
Take your time getting familiar with the material and we will be here.

[Tirinvo]

Yes, and then there's is the fact that you will be reading a WHOLE bunch of 'rough drafts' in this projects. A bit of advice for newcomers, print out and take home(or to any leisure spot you can) and read thoroughly and take many notes/questions. You will find that we get very technical and it is a must to do your homework, though sometimes an opinion is needed, for this is not for the slacker or observer at heart.

***Even though many of us have read Sil/UT/HoME many times, some of us still must go back and reread certain parts over for reference, you should also take heed of this***

[Joy]

Hi Lindil, I would like to join you guys soon. I am getting my collection of HoME up now. I have read the Sil 2x, UT 1x - reading it again, have BoLT1&2, Lays, SoME, and The Lost Road. I have asked for MR and WotJ for Christmas.

As soon as I finish UT, what should I start on? I have read part of BoLT2 - story of Beren and Lùthien only.

PS, I am studying Quenya and Sindarin - hopefully this will help. smilies/smile.gif

[lindil]

We would be delighted to have you joy.

Definetly first on the reading list [ for this particular project] is BoLT 2's Fall of Gondolin and the HoME4's Q30 Gondolin chapter [ the basis for the chapters in 'The Silmarillion'].

After or along with that would go the same general advice we have been giving above.

the ** threads are the essential one's but feel free to go to the source threads [ as per the advice to Lanwe Fea above] if the terminology is confusing.

There is a good project for someone willing;

a guide to abbreviations.

The only problem is we have been less than 100% consistent ourselves.
Still if someone wants to undertake an exploration of the abbreviations used in the **official project** threads and compile them in a new thread we can comment on it and add it to the FAQ section.

It woill probably help us standardize a bit more. Of course maybe it is OK to use MR or HoME 10 interchangeably...


Joy - PM me whenever you are ready to take the full plunge smilies/smile.gif

-lindil

[ November 30, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[InklingElf]

hmmm this is very interesting. Is it alright for me to join aswell?

[Eruhen]

Well, well, well! In the week that I've been away from the forum, everyone seems to be jumping on the bandwagon. Of course, that's not a bad thing. Far from it. Everyone (sorry I don't remember who you all are), welcome to the project! We need all the help we can get!

[Gimli the Dwarf]

I would love to join this thead. Could you Pm me the jobs I could do? thanks smilies/biggrin.gif

[lindil]

Greetings Inklin Elf and Gimli the Dwarf -
great to see such enthusiasm!

Right now to join I [ and no one else on the team has complained or offered other guidelines] am asking that all new members have read over the threads marked with
**. These are essential as we are in mid-project and new members really need to be able to land running.

If you don't have time to read the **threads** from begining to end then this project is probably not for you.

Once you have done that PM me and we go from there.

I hope I am not sounding too discouraging a note, but each new member does really need to do the vast majority of the work in bring them selves up to speed before they get involved.

Again, welcome!

[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Scattergold]

:edited post:

sorry, not quite sure if the post below was directed at me or not... or what exactly it means. (I have, actually, read all of the ** posts by the time I made my way back to this thread, and as I stated before, have read Sil/UT several times, and am at the moment making my way through HOME)

I understand if you guys dont need any more help, but I figured it was no harm in offering, as I did read you were looking for artists, and hadnt seen anyone rise for the job.

Good luck on this project to you, I will be following it. smilies/smile.gif

:I deleted my old post, as I feel its irrelevant:

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Scattergold ]

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: Scattergold ]

[Orald]

*Blinks* I do not believe my eyes, you see I thought lindil wrote, "These are essential as we are in mid-project aqnd new members really need to be able to land running."


Finally you are on your way to getting what you have been dreaming of for over 3 years.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Sorry, I didn't think to check back here. Looks as if once again, I'm in front of a trend. But thanks for the encouragement.

Lindil's set me up nicely; now all I need to do is quit my job. I look at some of those other threads now, too.

But I see where you are going with FOG, and on the surface what you have in BoLT II is ripe for marrying with Tuor's Coming to Gondolin, provided it is fixed up to agree with what is in The Silmarillion. Otherwise, it would seem according to CRT that JRRT never really revisited this again, except for one little piece of Lay.

But it is easier said than done.

[lindil]

Welcome Scattergold, [and nice to see you pop in Durelen!] sorry if we are starting to seem prissy with all of the ever increasing list of requirements, but that really is the nature of unpaid anddermanned and underorganized projects of this nature, especially once you finally start to actually get somewhere!

So just to make it all crystal clear to everyone: Anyone is free to come and lurk and observe. We will not stop non-members from making occasional comments, especially in this thread. If you really have something to say but know you can not or wish not to be a regular member, speak up. We have had a few good ideas this way in the past . If you do wish to join, you really must have done the following before even bothering to speak or post about joining: A) have read the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales with understanding 2 to 3 times and read all of the threads in this forum marked with the ** at the begining and end ot the thread title.

If you do not do this you will risk looking so incompetent to deal with the small things that we will likely not feel inclined to entrust you with membership.

We really do not have time [ at least I don't and no one else has volunteered] to hold anyone's hands through the begining stages of what we have already done.

I know some of it is difficult going and in all honesty that is just the nature of it, it is not going to change [ at least not for more than a moment or 2]. This project makes the HoME footnotes seem like easy reading. Although God willing we will finish FoG someday and start anew on other texts, maybe from the Ainulindale and work on. So that would be a logical place to jump on if interested but not feeling up to FoG [ and believe me I understand that sentiment well!]

I truly do not want to discourage anyone who is ready to join in, but I have less and less time for this project even as I have more and more I want to do with it, so parsing newcomers is going to need to fall to someonelse entirely I think. Members feel free to respond on the private forum general thread for any ideas!]

So hopefully this clears any remaining fog from the project membership process.

[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[the real findorfin]

Is it essential to have read all of HoME before joining?

I would very much like to read through the current work and suggest things (if they appear)? Is this possible?

Thanks

[lindil]

No, R Findorfin it is not. Currently, 2-3 readings each of UT and the Silmarillion are strongly recommended. HoME reading while not required will be important though in varying degrees depending on the text and project involved.

For instance in the new Ainulindale Project Morgoth's Ring is probably the only essential HoME book, any other small bits that might make their way in can and will be posted on the relevant thread, so that everyone will be able to read/discuss/ponder it's implications and [possible inclusion.

For the FoG, HoME2, HoME4 [along with UT and Silm of course] have been the primary texts but varrying other bits have come from almost every other volume, linguistic info from H5, Later developments from 10-12, I am not sure if we used anything from the fragment of the Lay of the fall of Gondolin in H3 but I actually just read a few lines [ 35 and on] that might work nicely in the latter sections.

But again there are a fwe hard, hard core types that usually hunt down all of the tangential tie-in's. New members can more or less figure on being responsible for the main texts.

In some cases needed material is available on the Private forum, which is one reason it is private.

Thanks for the great question RF. I will [ sooner or later [place it in the **FAQ/Intro thread**].


I would very much like to read through the current work and suggest things (if they appear)? Is this possible?


If by that if you are asking if you may join the project, then yes,PM me for further details.

If you are inquiring re: just being a non member [ you don't get to vote or have access to the Private Forum] meaning you can read and comment on the projects here on the public forum, then of course, any one bold enough to venture into the tangled web of Simarillion revision is welcome [and deserves!] to put in their 2 cents.

[ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[lindil]

Attention Project members - for the next few months, Aiwendil will be the primary moderator for the forums and primary project leader for ther FoG, with Maedhros taking that role for the Ainulindale.

I will still be posting on the FoG threads, and anything else that specifically demnands my attention, but all enquireies that can not be resolved by a little hard thought or research should be addressed to the afore mentioned until otherwise posted.

For anyone interested in signing up, Aiwendil [ till other wise posted] is the one to contact after the various pre-requisites have been fulfilled.

[lindil]

The FAQ/Intro to the Forum and Project Thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000091#000000)has been updated [6.0], now with spiffy links [ and one to the very first thread whererin all of this was conceived...]

Anyway if any of you active members are missing now is the time to PM me. Please take note of the new points.

[Petty Dwarf]

As this is my first post let me start off by telling everyone involved how much I respect your efforts in taking on this project.

Naturally, like any intelligent person who delves into Tolkien's work, I began to see the haphazard approach Christopher Tolkien took in editting (more at rewriting) the Silmarillion.

I started a topic at The White Council (where I still post) calledThe Biggest Threat to Your Conception of Middle-Earth (http://pub108.ezboard.com/fthelotrmoviesitegenerictolkien.showMessage?topicI D=399.topic). My biggest concern at that time was the Sil's lack of the Translator, whose involvment in LotR can't be denied, especially since JRRT was writing for the part.

I've lurked around here since I found out about the project, and as much as I like what I see I feel like you've glossed over one of JRR's major points. (I know this borders on personal aesthetics but I was just wondering how the project fells about it) I've broken down the Tolkien sub-creation into four levels that have to exist in a new Sil:

1.) The Imaginary Past (where the events of the legendarium took place)
2.) The Legendarium (the imaginary past's sub-creations:
-----A. Elvish literature and folklore
-----B. Mannish literature, folklore, and adaptions from Elvish works)
3.) The Imaginary Present (where the legendarium was discovered)
4.) The Translator's Work (the imaginary present's sub-creations: the legendarium translated, expounded on, and published)

I know you discount the Myths Transformed material (why?), but do you really consider the Sil a work of elves and not a reworking of elvish works by the Dunedain?

Just wondering, and I hope my head doesn't get chopped off my very first post. I'd very much like to give input and insight on the project.

The bottom line is that the estate should do something in the future, and a Silmarillion should be the place to start.

[Aiwendil]

I'd very much like to give input and insight on the project.

Great! It sounds as though you'd have some insightful and helpful things to say.

Warning: the following began as a simple answer to your questions, but took on a life of its own. I'm sorry to answer you with such an abstract and pedantic essay, and I certainly hope I don't scare you off. Anyway, some people may be interested in my musings.

You are very correct, I think, about the presence of a translator and a feel of authenticity being very important to Tolkien's works. Or to put it another way (as you in fact do), his Legendarium is multi-lateral. There is on the first level the "true" history, on the second the early written accounts, on the third the transmission to modernity, and on the fourth the translation in modernity. Of course, the third and the fourth tend to be somewhat conflated, or perhaps glossed over, even by Tolkien - nowhere do we learn how he was to have come by these ancient manuscripts. The point, nonetheless, is well made and well taken.

I agree that in the preparation of any purportedly "authentic" documents, it is essential to bear fully in mind the distinction between 1 and 2 - that is, to remember that the work at hand is not an accurate history, but rather a document from a supposed historical period. This would certainly be the case if someone were to prepare a work intended to be the veritable "Quenta Silmarillion" - as Christopher did; or if someone really wanted to write Bilbo's "Translations from the Elvish".

But I must here say two things. First, the preparation of such a document is not the goal of this project. Second, regardless of that, I don't think I see how we have glossed over the multi-lateralism.

On the first point: this project, as I have understood its purpose from relatively early on, is not the creation of a supposed ancient document. If we were preparing an "authentic" Quenta Silmarillion, we would have to be going about things quite differently. For one thing, we'd have to leave out all the long versions - long versions for the inclusion of which the project was specifically designed (well, it was designed for this among other things). Nor can the goal of the project be the creation of, say, the Atanatarion, or some other collection of the full-length stories, simply because there is at least one full length story that we don't have, and will never have - the story of Earendil. I have said it many times before - the purpose of this project is not to create a work of any literary merit.

What, then, is the purpose? Well, I'd put it this way (and this may sound a bit odd): it is to create an account, accurate in its details and as detailed as possible, of the fictional world-history defined by the the writings of the Numenoreans, which are themselves part of another fictional world-history. The first fictional world history I mentioned, call it F1, is a sub-creation within the sub-creation (F2) of Arda. F2 corresponds with your "layer 1" and F1 with your "layer 2".

In other words, we are making the simplifying assumption that the history told in the Quenta Silmarillion is exactly the "true" history (or to put it another way, we are defining as "true" the Quenta Silmarillion). Starting from there, we are writing an accurate account of that "true" history (which may or may not be the F2/layer 1 true history).

You may ask why it is this history, F1, that we are interested in, rather than the true history of Arda, F2. I think the reason is simple: we have very many documents describing F1 (we need not worry about the fact that that set of documents is internally contradictory). We have relatively few documents describing F2, and even in those that do describe it, there is confusion and conflation between F1 and F2. In other words, when people think about the events in Tolkien's history, they think of those written down in such things as the Silmarillion, the Grey Annals, etc.; they do not think of "real" events that are merely described (imperfectly) by the Silmarillion, Annals, etc.

So the simplifying assumption behind this project as well as behind almost all discussions of the Legendarium is that F1=F2; layer 1 = layer 2. Note that even while making this assumption, we do still recognize that there is a difference; we simply ignore that difference in order to make possible a discussion of the events.

Of course, there are times that, in the context of trying to sort out contradictions among texts describing F2, that we run into texts that deal with F1 and the distinction between F1 and F2. These can be problems. It seems that the best solution we have is to keep pretending F2 is "true" and take it over F1. This is a problem that has come up in the recent Aelfwine/Rumil/Pengolodh discussions, though I think there the problem is quite soluble.

This leads to my second point above: despite this simplifying assumption, I'm not sure how we have glossed over any specific cases of the multi-lateral distinction. If you were going about this, conscious of the distinctions you mentioned, what would you have done differently? We have, in fact, struggled to retain all the references to authorship which we have come across.

As for the Myths Transformed material: if the philosophy behind the workings of this project were to be boiled down to one prime axiom, I think it would be "latest conceptions are followed, wherever they can be incorporated without creative writing". Of course, our principles are much more complex than that (see the principles thread), but that is the basic idea behind all of them. Very early on, there were indeed proposals for the inclusion of Myths Transformed. But in its current incarnation, the project must reject the later cosmology. This is simply because there is no way to incorporate it into the existing writings without doing some very significant creative writing.

Of course, there is a more subtle distinction here than simply round earth vs. flat earth. As I think I said in another post, there are really 3 options: 1. Round earth Silmarillion; 2. Flat earth history; 3. Round earth history but Flat earth Silmarillion. (There is also theoretically a fourth option: Flat earth history and Round earth Silmarillion - but that's, of course, completely psychotic.)

The third version may have been what Tolkien finally settled on - it's hard to say. In that version, F2/layer 1 follows the round earth cosmology while F1/layer 2 is the incorrect flat earth account written by the Numenoreans. But consider: the purpose of the project is to write the history of F1/layer 2, not of the "real" Arda. So for our purposes, option 2 and option 3 become almost identical. In fact the only remaining discrepancies between them appear if we try to include some reference to authorship - as in the case of the Pengolodh/Aelfwine business. Of course even there, as the current solution shows, it is possible to make the writing ambiguous and retain the identity between 2 and 3.

Your last question is whether we really consider the Silmarillion a work of the Elves and not of the Dunedain. The answer would have to be "no". There is no question that the Silmarillion was the work of the Numenoreans/Dunedain/Bilbo, regardless of how one deals with the above issues. I can't think of anything that might have given you the impression that we consider it an Elvish work.

[lindil]

Welcome to the Downs and the TftE forum Petty Dwarf!

I am always heartened to see someone make their fist post in our little forum as it was on this topic I first posted on the downs also [leading ultimately to this very project].

I think we have handicapped your present understanding a bit by not having our current Pengoldh/Aelfwine/Rumil discussion in the public foprum as is our want.

I will look into moving it over here next so you can see that quite a few of your very well organized points are in the process of being addressed.

I must say also that one of Aiwendil's and I 's very fwe disagreements is on the future literary 'fate' of our effort.

I would love to see it as polished and smoothly integrated ala the 77/01 Silmarillion as possible with no visible seams between the UT/Q30/LT material.

This of course will make the source texts from the Lost tales virtually unrecognizable as the names will have been converted, details added and deleted according to the principles and finally in my vision [if we go with it] the Lost Tales language 'updated'. Replacing the archaisms and stylistic inflections so peculiar and common to Lost Tales with the more sparse and formal Silm language or when possible, with the beautiful phrasing that characterises all of the post LotR Silmarillion writing.

I think the attempt is at least worth the making. And though the end product will have gone through 3 very carefully crafted, principled and controlled steps equal if I may say it, to the work CJRT did, hopefully in quality, though of course without any vestige of his authority.
Again welcome to the Forum!

I am sure you will have some feedback for us once IO can get the aforementioned thread moved or copied over.

[Aiwendil]

I would love to see it as polished and smoothly integrated ala the 77/01 Silmarillion as possible with no visible seams between the UT/Q30/LT material.

I just feel it necessary to point out that I too would love this - I just don't think that it's possible within the context of this project as it currently exists. I do think that the current project could constitute the first step in such an endeavor.

[lindil]

Agreed. We do not yet have in place any guidelines for that phase of the work.

[Petty Dwarf]

Of course, lindil, the legendarium (F1) takes precedence being the most time consuming and important. That's why there's little of the Translator in JRRT's original writing. Hopefully TftE won't get bogged down by the weight of it too. From what I can see, and to be doubly cheesy, this project is like fighting the long defeat but there's always hope.

I meant it very broadly when I said "glossed over". Afterall, I can't see everything you've done. Specifically it was in regards to the Translator, only because without him F1 can't exist IMO. I feel like this is one of the reasons people feel hobbit-cheated with the Silm. Without the Translator to drive the point home that Bilbo made the whole thing possible it's almost forgotten. Obviously TftE as a title aknowledges that. I only mentioned it because I didn't see any plans for a Prologue of any type.

Aiwendil, I'm glad I got to see some more of the thought process behind it all. The shorthand of it: I think the two theories are on the same page.

If you want, PM the password this way and I'll be happy to lend some more opinions in line with the TftE aesthetic.

[Mauwurz]

I would like to join in this Silmarillion Project,I have not got the HoME series but I do own the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales.
If I am accepted please PM me the password to the other forum.

[Rivendell elf]

How can i get on to the privte translation forum?

[lindil]

Welcome to the Downs Rivendell Elf!

Access to the private forum is for members actively working on the project.

To learn more about possibly becoming a member see the ***Intro to the forum and FAQ's*** thread at the top of the list of threads in this forum.

It goes over a list of member pre-requisites and obligatory threads obne needs to have read.
Good luck.

[Curcuas]

Can I join, I have been looking for a good way to debate the finer points of the chronology of middle earth for a while now.

[Aiwendil]

Sorry for the delay in replying. You are of course welcome to join. Look over the threads marked with asterisks to get an idea of how we work and what we've done so far. If you're still interested, send either me or Lindil and private message and we'll give you the password to the private forum.

[Aireore]

Hi everyone! smilies/smile.gif I've read the Silmarillion a few times and I agree with the fact that it should be revised a bit.

Some points in the story seem somewhat unclear, and it is a very slow read because some points can be confusing.

Personally I would like to know more about the voyage of Earendil and exactly how Elrond met Celebrían anyway. I mean, if she was in Lothlórien and he was in Imladris...?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Personally I would like to know more about the voyage of Earendil and exactly how Elrond met Celebrían anyway. I mean, if she was in Lothlórien and he was in Imladris...?

I don't think were here to revise things in the fashion I belive you are implying-we're not writing fan-fic, but revising the Published Silmarillionfrom where we see C.T has stumbled in the 'editing' such as Gil-Galads parentage, or re-writing things like the FoG, which were never revised by Tolkien.

You can find out about Elrond and Celebrian's meeting, in U.T and Earendil's voyage in BoLT 2.

[Smaug]

I don't think that any additions in the new Silmarilion should cntradict the old.

[Aiwendil]

Where Are We?

As I've had a bit more free time lately, I thought I'd see if I could reinvigorate the project a bit. We've had another long dry spell (due, I'm afraid, in part to my own absence).

If anyone else is here,I think we can start to get organized on three points:

1. Ainulindale - what remains to be done? A cursory review of the thread seems to indicate that the only matter left to be settled was the 'Yavanna as a tree' sentence.

2. Fall of Gondolin - I recall that there were some points not resolved in section 3. We could (preferably) try to tie things up there or (if that proves too difficult) we could move on to parts 4 and 5 and come back to it later.

3. Valaquenta - We had started working on this. But it may be wiser to finish the Ainulindale before returning to it.

It would also be helpful if we could simply get an idea of how many people are still around, so please post just to let us know you're here even if you don't have anything else to say.

[ July 07, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Maédhros]

Well Aiwendil, I can tell you that I'm still hanging around.
1. Ainulindale - what remains to be done? A cursory review of the thread seems to indicate that the only matter left to be settled was the 'Yavanna as a tree' sentence.
This is correct, but I thought that that matter was settled, and we were going to use a footnote.
2. Fall of Gondolin - I recall that there were some points not resolved in section 3. We could (preferably) try to tie things up there or (if that proves too difficult) we could move on to parts 4 and 5 and come back to it later.
I think that we should try to end part 3 first. Are you sure that parts 1 and 2 are done.
3. Valaquenta - We had started working on this. But it may be wiser to finish the Ainulindale before returning to it.
The Valaquenta I think was almost done too. The thing was that after antoine's comments there were not too many replies.

[Aegnor]

Well this is my first post, so here goes...

I'm actually quite interested in the project. I've currently only read the Sil out of all the requirements (UT and HoME seem to be hard to come by where I live, plus I'm short on cash).

My main interest is actually in the Elvish language itself. I've spent countless hours reading and re-reading the linguistic information in the appendices in RotK and the Sil. Once, I actually tried to get the book of Tolkien's languages (unofficial I believe), but at that time too, I was short of cash.

Basically, I'm very motivated, and I can spend a lot of time doing the necessary research. If you tell me the name of a book that is necessary for my work, I will buy the copy immediately.

I believe that this undertaking is amazing, and anyway that I can help (or can help me in furthering my knowledge of Elvish) I will undertake with diligence.

[Legolas]

After much delay, I'm posting here to show my interest in joining the project.

I'm not sure what else to add here - anyone who has been around the Books forum [where I've been promoted to moderator in the last month or two] for any length of time will be [at the least] moderately aware of my knowledge and understanding of this mass work of Prof. Tolkien's.

[Novnarwen]

Hi.

It was really just by chance I stumbled over this forum (believe it or not). And I started reading the FAQ on the Revised Silmarillion Project. And then it crossed my mind, well it didn't cross, it was just there: This is a brilliant project, and I would love to be a part of it.

I have a problem though...

In the little country I live in with minimal of inhabitants, I can't seem to find HoME anywhere. I have read the Silm though, quite a few times. Not many, but I would gladly read it again, and again.

Anyway, please let me know..

PS, I am going away for about a week. (And I'll search for HoME in the beautiful country I am going too, I promise.)

*Nova* smilies/wink.gif

[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: Novnarwen ]

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aegnor
I believe that this undertaking is amazing, and anyway that I can help (or can help me in furthering my knowledge of Elvish) I will undertake with diligence.
Aegnor, you should read this thread: What is the Translatations from the Elvish Project? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000091)
We are not trying to translate the Silmarillion into Elvish, our aim to try and compile a more complete Silmarillion than the one that CT published in 77. Now having said that, I think that participating in it will increase your knowledge in Quenya and Sindarin.

Originally posted by Legolas
After much delay, I'm posting here to show my interest in joining the project.
Glad to have you aboard Legolas.

Originally posted by Novnarwen
It was really just by chance I stumbled over this forum (believe it or not). And I started reading the FAQ on the Revised Silmarillion Project. And then it crossed my mind, well it didn't cross, it was just there: This is a brilliant project, and I would love to be a part of it.
Well, glad that you like it.

Since lindil and Aiwendil are the Proyect Coordinators, you will have to wait for either of them to pm you the password of the members only forum. Now I have to warn you that it is a lot of work. We have mostly finished the Ainulindalë, pending Aiwendil's approval of the Yavanna footnote, working on the Valaquenta and the Fall of Gondolin.

[Novnarwen]

I am sure it's a lot of work, that's why I want to join... smilies/biggrin.gif

*Nova* smilies/biggrin.gif

[Aegnor]

Originally posted by Maédhros
Aegnor, you should read this thread: What is the Translatations from the Elvish Project?
We are not trying to translate the Silmarillion into Elvish, our aim to try and compile a more complete Silmarillion than the one that CT published in 77. Now having said that, I think that participating in it will increase your knowledge in Quenya and Sindarin.

I have both read that topic, and fully understand your goals. I just believe that a compehensive appendice of the Elvish language is extremely necessary. I believe that I could most definitely help with it.

[Aiwendil]

Welcome to Aegnor, Legolas, and Novnarwen.

Aegnor and Novnarwen - while having a few of the HoMe books is necessary to really get a full understanding of the decisions going on here, it's certainly not a prerequisite for membership. Even if you've only read the '77, your comments and contributions can still be very valuable. Expect a bit of a steep learning curve at first. But I'm sure you're easily be able to pick up the important threads of discussion and follow them with no problem after a while. Still, I'd advise trying to get some of HoMe if at all possible. Of particular importance are X and XI. II was of prime importance to the Fall of Gondolin project, but we are nearing the completion of that now. Unfinished Tales would also be very helpful.

Aegnor - it's always good to have people knowledgeable in (or interested in learning about) the Elvish languages here; we come up against etymological problems fairly frequently. You may have found this site already, but Ardalambion (http://www.ardalambion.com) is the best site for learning what there is to learn of Quenya and Sindarin. At the moment, it's probably better and more complete than any single book on the languages.

Anyone who's looked over the important threads and still wants to join (as I think all three of you have) can PM me and I will send you the password to the private forum. And don't be afraid to jump right into the threads here in the public forum.

This is correct, but I thought that that matter was settled, and we were going to use a footnote.

I guess this was the general consensus, but of course we'll still need to finalize everything.

I think that we should try to end part 3 first.

Agreed.

I think that we should try to end part 3 first. Are you sure that parts 1 and 2 are done.

I'm fairly sure that no one had any other comments there, so we moved on. But we could always reopen them.

The Valaquenta I think was almost done too. The thing was that after antoine's comments there were not too many replies.

Right. Well, I guess we'll just have to finalize that too.

I think we should wait perhaps just a bit longer and see whether anyone else is still around. Perhaps we should PM some of the others and let them know that we seem to be entering another active phase.

Edit: I should also add for the newcomers that in addition to the various Fall of Gondolin, Ainulindale, and Valaquenta threads, the old 'Principles' thread is worth looking at. It can be quite an exacting and convoluted discussion at times, but it really gets at the way the project is meant to work.

[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Finwe]

I would also really love to join this project. I have extensive knowledge of the Silmarillion, and I have read most of the HoME series, (so far I have done Morgoth's Ring, The Lost Road, Lost Tales 1&2, Lays of Beleriand, and the War of the Jewels). I think that I could be of some service to this project, and I do know that it will require a lot of work, but I am willing to do it.

[Maédhros]

Welcome Finwe, may I advise that you familiarize yourself with the Valaquenta section of Morgoth's Ring, because that is the basic text that we are using in that part.
And of course, Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin, Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin,The Shaping of Middle-earth: The Quenta Appendix II: The Horns of Ylmir, and The Lays of Beleriand: Poems Early Abandoned: The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin for the Fall of Gondolin.

[Finwe]

Ah, I really need to brush up on the Horns of Ylmir part. I haven't read that in a while.

[Aiwendil]

Welcome to the project, Finwe.

I have received no PM from Aegnor, Legolas, or Novnarwen, but I will assume this was mere forgetfulness and that all three still want to join. So I will send the password to the private forum to Aegnor, Legolas, Novnarwen, and Finwe presently.

[theonering0]

Greetings,

I wouldnt mind adding my name to the list of those working on this project, if I can be of some use. While I do not own HOME I do own UT, the Sil, Unfinished Tales, Lost Road, and Lost Tales #1.

I am also fairly accomplished with the tolkienian language Sindarin, though I doubt this will be of much service.

Aaron Shaw

[Aiwendil]

Welcome to the project, theonering0. The important threads to familiarize yourself with are at this point the various Fall of Gondolin threads and the Ainulindale and Valaquenta threads. Or, if you wish, you could concentrate on just one of these areas. I'll send you the password to the private forum.

[Maédhros]

Fall of Gondolin separation:
lindil, Aiwendil, Antoine and other active members:

As I was trying to make some comments on the FOG part 3, I realized that while the changes had been well documented and marked, in the text of the Fall of Gondolin, I was not sure where part 3 started and ended, and not only part 3 but the other ones as well.
This is what I propose we do when dealing with FOG and other future projects (This was done with the Ainulindalë), that we number the paragraphs as CT does, i.e. QS.
What I essentially did was to begin part 3 with Tuor in Gondolin and end it with Maeglin's Treachery, when he returns to Gondolin.
To me at least, it helps me visualize it better.
I began with paragraph § 1, when Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin ends. I have applied the General Changes to it, and then I will apply the approved ones too.

P.S. I think that there are some General changes that need discussing too.

[Novnarwen]

I have received no PM from Aegnor, Legolas, or Novnarwen, but I will assume this was mere forgetfulness and that all three still want to join. So I will send the password to the private forum to Aegnor, Legolas, Novnarwen, and Finwe presently.



I am really sorry. I have been gone for a week, in England actually, and I hadn't computer access.

However, thank you for the password. I'll check the forum and the threads later today. I am very excited.

I tried to get all of the books requried. But I didn't find all of them. I got myself BoLT 1 and 2 though and UT... I'll start doing some 'non-stop' reading at once.

Thank you once again!

*Nova*

[lindil]

Welcome Novnarwen all new comers,

Remember that the FOG while not 're-stricted' is def not encouraged as the place to cut your TftE teeth. The Valaquenta is that suggested place. THe reason being that the FOG is so complex that even those of us who have chipped away at it's monumental complexity over the years are hard - pressed to keep track of it all ourselves, much less try and bring anyone up to speed! So if you are a newcomer, think Valaquenta!

----

Maedhros, the way I have always been able to tell where ti starts and ends is by accessing the FoG part 3 thread in this Forum, where I already chopped it up anmd started work.

Other than that I have no dividers in my mind [or anywhere else that I am aware of]. SO look for that FOG part 3 thread...

[Maédhros]

I think that now would be a good time for the newcomers to jump in the discussions that we are having in the Valaquenta and the Fall of Gondolin.

[Beren87]

Ah, was just reading through as I normally do [I seem to never have anything to post], when something caught my eye. The brief TOY that has been introduced looked thoroughly interesting to me. Will work be progressing on that? That's actually a project that catches my fancy, as it were.

And thanks for the tip, Maedhros.

[Aiwendil]

That Tale of Years is, I believe, based on a Myths Transformed round earth cosmology. So it's of limited utility to this project. But if that's something you're interested in, why not work on a revised flat earth Tale of Years of your own? Or perhaps that would be a good side-project to have going on alongside the textual editing. Feel free to do a little research and start a new Tale of Years thread (or revive the old one).

[lindil]

I will be offline for a couple of weeks [most likely] so all Admin/moderator matters in this forum should be sent to Aiwendil.

-Keep up the great work!

[Lord Gothmog]

I am very interested in this project. I have been talking to Maédhros about it and would like to join you in the work.

[lindil]

Have you made it through the Intro/FAQ thread [and all of it's accompanying links]?

You have read the Silm 2-3X's and UT once or twice?

If so pm Aiwendil or myself and we will hook you up Lord G.

-L

[Findegil]

Okay at last I would like to sign up to the project.

Respectfully
Findegil

[lindil]

Sure thing Findegil.

Would you be so kind as to activate your Private Message link [ in 'my profile' section]. and I can send you the needed passwords.

Welcome aboard!!!


New one's comin as the old one's go. Everythings movin' here but much too slowly. A little bit sooner and we might have time, to say 'how do you do' before we're left behind.- Grateful Dead - "Cosmic Charley"

[AmiSelomna]

Lindil, I would very much like to join your project. I've read both the UT and the Sil several times each, and I've been through most of HoME once. (I can't seem to find a place to buy my own copy.) I think I could be a help to you, at least somewhat. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

[Asa]

Hey I would like to join the Silmerillion project. smilies/smile.gif

[Aiwendil]

Welcome to both Undoriel and Asa. I'm glad you're interested in our project.

If you've looked over the "Introduction" thread and understand what the basis and goals of the project are, you can start contributing at any time. To get access to the private forum, you need to PM me and I'll send you the password.

Currently, our main project is a revision of the "Fall of Gondolin" from the Book of Lost Tales. This sub-project has been going on for quite a while and has left a long trail of intricate discussion behind it. If you're feeling especially brave, you can look over the Gondolin-related threads, especially: "A Project: Revising the Fall of Gondolin", "Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin?", and "Rog - canonical Elvish or no?".

But if the length and complexity of those discussions are overwhelming, don't worry. You can also get involved in the Ainulindale/Valaquenta projects and the Ruin of Doriath project. The Ainulindale/Valaquenta stuff is theoretically an active project at this point, but of late is has been neglected in favor of the Gondolin material. The Ruin of Doriath project was begun recently but also put on hold until we finish the Fall of Gondolin.

By the way, you might also want to look at the locked "Principles" thread. The discussion there got a little intense, but it will give you a good idea of how we go about this work.

[Asa]

I would PM you but your box is full. I have read everything and am ready to recieve the password. smilies/smile.gif

[Findegil]

I am not a moderator, so I am not allowed to give anybody the password. But I can a sure any newmember that any discussion should go on here in the public forum. What you will find in the members only forum is only a addon - a small help, since you can read some texts as edited in full. But the changes are all here discussed. And you will find the newest version of our changes always here.

So, as long as you have no password, start reading here and when ever you have a question to ask or suggestion to make do it here in the public forum.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Change in Password Policy

Since it seems that a lot of new members join and then disappear pretty quickly, and since all of the important discussion takes place in the public forum, we've decided to alter the policy regarding giving out the password to the private forum.

Previously, anyone who expressed interest in the project was given the password. The new policy is that a member must become active in the project here on the public forum before being given access to the private forum.

Please note that this change amounts to very little. The private forum is as a rule only used for the posting of completed texts. All important discussion takes place here.

[lindil]

The above emmendation has been inserted into the intro to the forum/FAQ (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000091#000000)thread.

[Asa]

I am just wondering, but in which thread is the live discussion takeing place in this project currently?

[Aiwendil]

The following threads may be considered "live" for FoG: Fall of Gondolin Part 3 Structure (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000181), Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000101&p=2), and Rog: Canonical Elvish or No? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000183).

Also, the beginnings of the Ruin of Doriath project: Ruin of Doriath (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000160).

Those are the threads in which there has been recent discussion. But that certainly doesn't mean they're the only relevant threads or the only threads you're allowed to post in.

[Saraphim]

I have studied the Silmarillion, Lost Tales, and The Lays of Belariand extensivly, and I was hoping that there might be a place for me on this intruiging project.

I have read of the topics, and greatly wish to be apart of it.

Thank you for considering me!

[Aiwendil]

Welcome to the project.

Once you've read over the active threads and feel ready to contribute, please jump right in. The important threads right now are the "Fall of Gondolin part 3 structure", "Revised Fall of Gondolin part 4", and "The Problem of Rog" threads.

[Maédhros]

Saraphim, if you are serious in contributing to the proyect, I can provide you with the texts we are currently working on regarding the Fall of Gondolin. One can contribute to the threads without them but in my opinion, it is easier if one has the base text of the discussions. Let me know if you or someone else who may contribute to the project would like to have them.

[Eorl of Rohan]

This is a very interesting project, and I want to participate in it.

I am an avid and very fast reader, and read Silmarillion and Unfinished tales more then ten times, though I have not kept count.

Can I join?

[Aiwendil]

You may certainly join.

The first thing to do is to read the important threads on the forum.

As you may know, we are in the final stages of updating the old version of "The Fall of Gondolin" found in HoMe II to fit with the later Legendarium. This project began with the old Fall of Gondolin (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4410) thread; it's not necessary that you read it, but if you wish to see the beginnings of this particular phase of the project, it's worth looking at.

The current discussion regarding the Fall of Gondolin is taking place in these threads: Revised Fall of Gondolin part 2 [the transition] (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4469), Revised Fall of Gondolin part 5 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4434), and Proposed FoG Agenda (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4438).

That these are the currently active threads does not mean that they are the only place you're allowed to post, however. If you have any relevant comments on more general issues from other threads, feel free to post them.

[Petty Dwarf]

Well, I'm back.

Due to circumstances far beyond my control (ranging from a move from Queens to Brooklyn, transitions in and out of a job or two, to death) I've been sadly unable to post around here, just when I was starting to feel the project.

Thanks to things calming down I've been back a few times and have caught up with the feel of the current work. I'm happy to once again lend whatever assistance I can. I am extremely intrigued with the current Fall of Doriath revisions.

[Maédhros]

Welcome back.
If you have read some of the other threads posted by Aiwendil in his last post, we have decided that we would continue with the Of Eärendil and the War of Wrath chapter, instead of going back and working with the Ruin of Doriath.

I believe that as soon as Antoine posts our current draft of the Fall of Gondolin we will begin our work with the Eärendil chapter. It is to be noted that while we were working on the Fall of Gondolin, several facets of the Eärendil chapter have been discussed, such as: using the Lay of Eärendel as the beginning of the chapter, etc.

I believe that the King's writer Findegil is going to make a rough draft regarding the Eärendil chapter as a base for us to work on that part.

[Aiwendil]

Welcome back, Petty Dwarf. I'm sorry to hear about all the craziness in your real life lately.

We're moving on next to the Voyage of Earendil, which we will be starting as soon as the final draft of the Fall of Gondolin is done.

A few general discussions are going on now in Format/Notation Issues (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10388) and What's Next? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10387). Your comments on these issues would be most appreciated.

[Leyrana Silumiel]

Ah, the Ainulindale. Finally, something I'm a little more knowledgeable about (let's face it, I'm not much of an expert on the Fall of Gondolin, which would explain my rather vague participation on that part). So you can officially count me in now, Aiwendil. I'll get busy reading what's said now. ^_^

[Aiwendil]

I look forward to hearing what you have to say about the Ainulindale. Actually, I think that our revisions to it were very nearly complete, with only perhaps one or two small issues left to resolve. But please, if you have any comments on either the revisions we have made, the issues left unresolved, or anything else relating to the Ainulindale, don't hesitate to give voice to them.

[Raumohir]

Hello, everyone. I've been following this project for the last week or so, slowly trying to climb the learning curve before I posted anything too stupid. :rolleyes:

I'm very excited by the project. Although I first heard about it at lotrplaza, I've been looking for just such a project to get involved in for a long time. I've read the Sil half a dozen times now, read the UT twice, and also owned and read all of HOME and Letters. (Admittedly, I do tend to skip over a lot CT's editorial comments when I go through HOME....)

I'm especially interested in doing something with Chapters 7-9 (Although, from the Outline it looks like you have the DoV finished already? I'd love to be able to comment on it if so) In the meantime, I suppose I'll be trying to make my presence felt in the Valaquenta/Ainulindale threads.

Well, I just wanted to say "hello", in hopes of getting my own ball rolling here.

[Findegil]

Welcome to the project Raumhir. Do not fear that anythink in DoV is fixed already. The thinks nearly done as jet are very limited: FoG I would count as such and Ainulindale and Valaquenta. But the two later are still under discusssion. ;) And what ever you feel to need be discussed again (after reading the older discusssion) you should bring up (mostly it would be best placed in a new thread - which by the way anybody is fit to creat).

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Welcome, Raumohir!

Findegil is quite correct about DoV - I imagine we'll eventually be starting the whole thing over from scratch.

I look forward to reading your comments and suggestions regarding the Ainulindale and Valaquenta. Also, as Findegil said, feel free to bring up any topics you have something to say on, or to revive any old threads.

[Fingolfin II]

Hey guys,

This is a great project and I'm very keen to make form of comments and suggestions in various parts of this project. I've read some of the HoME serious, as well as the Silmarillion several times and UT. I hope that's enough.

Cheers,

Fingolfin.

[Findegil]

Welcome Fingolfin II!

Please feel invited to comment were ever you like and contribute were ever you feel you can do some thing.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Nirvana II]

After reading most of the threads, I believe I can contribute to the Project.


Yes,me.

I haven't read the Lays of Beleriand, but if you need me to I will go out and get it right now. Most of the time I carry around the Silmarillion with me.

I can research topics well and organize my thoughts.

[Aiwendil]

Familiarity with The Lays of Beleriand is not required - though of course, it can't hurt (and it's a very enjoyable book as well).

Please feel free to comment anywhere you feel you have something to contribute. Welcome to the project.

[Celebdil]

Hi,

After reading some of the threads here, it seems that as of 3 years ago, the FoG was in "final stages". Is there a way I could get a copy of the final draft so I can read it? :)

[Maédhros]

I have a clean copy of the Fall of Gondolin, you can PM me if you would like it. The only thing that I would say is that, if you really want it, please read it. I say this because there was another person who asked me for a part of our proyect, and didn't even bother to read it.

[Findegil]

I think it time to try a rescue of this project before it is completely forgotten by all its former active members.

Since I believe all of us need an update were we stand I will give an overview here. I try to keep the order in which we started the work on the chapters, but don’t take that to serious:

The Fall of Gondolin (FoG): Done. With some new comments on the Names of Rog and Laegolas, but nothing that was convincing so fare.

The Darkening of Valinor (DoV): Done.

Ainulindalë (AINU): Done. (Even the Yavanna as a tree discussion has found an end, even so I do not yet know exactly why the version we settled at was superior to a footnote.)

Valaquenta (Vala): Done.

Of the Voyage of Eärendil & Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath (VE): Done.

Of the Ruin of Doriath (RD): Done. With the single exception of the question of Andróg as member of Húrins Band, which is discussed in Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering.

Narn i Chîn Húrin (Narn; NA): Changes from The Children of Húrin are proposed but not yet discussed. Some further adds are proposed but although not yet discussed. In this chapter obviously the point to restart the project.

Narn Beren ion Barahir or Narn e•Dinúviel (BL): Done.

For the Silmarillion chapters up to „11 Of the flight of the Noldor“ and the chapter “21 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin” I have drafts ready for posting. But I will not undertake the wok to bring them in postable form before the discussion of the Narn is not done.

That is were we are. Is there still enough interest in the project to keep it alive?

For my part the question is answered with a clear yes, but I don’t see myself doing it alone. I know very well that had I done the work so fare alone it would have be much less good than the results of the group work.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

You are not alone Findegil, but so far, you are the one that has done most of the work.
I happen to have a certain amount of time now that I will put forth in the project. Remember Findegil that we had exchanged our drafts from different parts of the Sil.
I will post later this week my sugestions regarding the changes that you have proposed in the Narn. Sadly, I have received my new Children of Húrin this last month, so now I have the tools to look them up.

[Aiwendil]

Thanks for the prod, Findegil. I certainly am still interested in the project but have (quite typically) let it fall by the wayside. I will make an effort to get back into things.

[Findegil]

Puh, I am glade you two are still at my side.

I am not anxious of doing the text work, which Maedhros call "most of the work". It flows easy from my hand than, I anticipate that restricting my wild ideas and bind me with the rules of the project is much harder.

Looking forward to interesting discussions.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aaront596]

Hi I started making my own piecing together of the fall of Gondolin and in researching it I found where you guys had be working on one and so I want to join so I can read it and many other stories such as beren and luthien. I don't know how much help I’ll be but I would love to and I mean love to be able to read the work you guys have done. Can I sign up and get access to the writing you guys have produced?
Please let me know how. Thanx
Sincerely,
Aaron Smith

[emrys]

Greetings to everyone,

Not so much time ago I finally decided to complete my readings of Tolkien material with a new reading of HoME and consequently I started to organize my Tolkien ebook collection tryng to do a job very similar to what you all are doing with this fantastic project.

Than I discovered this site and found that you guys have already done an amazing work! so first of all let me congratulate with all of you.

That sayd, if there is some work to do to give a contribute to the project I will be very happy to join.

[Findegil]

Hello and a heartly welcome to Aaront596 and emry!

To join the project is very simple: read in the threads here in the forum and start commenting on the changes we proposed.

In time when you have shown a real interest you will get a password for the members only forum, which will give you access to some helpful compilations. This access is not a must have for the discussions it is only a helpful addition. In former times a simple message likes your would have been sufficient to get the password but we ended up with a long list of members which never became active. Therfore we only give it now after a time of active participation in the discussions.

See posting 100 in this thread for an oferview of were we are. When we considre a chapter done, that does not mean that you might not start a new discussion on it, but it might be easier to start with a still open topic. Therefore I would recomment to start with reading the following threads:
Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11788)
The Narn i Chîn Húrin: Beleg & Falivirn (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11818)
Narn i Chîn Húrin 3: The End of the Narn (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11820)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Welcome to both of you!

As you may have noticed, this project tends to crawl along rather slowly. Please don't let that dissuade you from participating. Take a look at the threads Findegil linked to and if you have any comments, suggestions, or questions, go ahead and post them.

By the way, I do hope to get back into this in the near future.

[Tar-Telperien]

Hello, everyone.

I have looked at many of the threads here and am impressed by your work. I would like to join this project. I have studied the Elvish languages a fair amount and am fairly well versed in linguistics (as it is my course of study). In addition, I have a fairly detailed knowledge of Tolkien's works which could be put to use here.

The slow pace does not bother me at all, as I am often quite busy. :p But I will check in when I can. What exactly are the current projects? This is not quite clear to me. It seems that the Ainulindalë is finished. Is The Fall of Gondolin the current focus?

[Findegil]

Welcome Tar-Telperien!

First of all, it doesn't matter which is considered an active project right now. If you have any comment to any part of text or discussion will will apprieciate to read it.

My posts #100 and #106 above are still valid more or less. But active discussions are in the moment concerned with the Ruin of Doriath.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[thelotrfreak1]

Hello Everybody,

First of all, a late Merry Christmas and I wish you all good luck. I have always been an avid fan of J.R.R. Tolkien's Legendarium. Furthermore, I always wished to accomplish some kind of project pertaining to the author's writings with the community. After stumbling upon this forum (Having long been reading the Minas Tirith Forum), I found the perfect chance and I hope there is still something I could do in The Translation from the Elvish. Finally, it is important to note that I possess great knowledge regarding Tolkien's books, having read them several times, and I adhere to the requirements.

Thank you,

Thelotrfreak1

P.S. Could anyone just give me a general idea on the progress so far (How much is done and how fast is the work being done). Estimated percentage would help. Indeed, even an approximate deadline would.

[Findegil]

Welcome to the project thelotrfreak1 and all good whishes for the new year for you to!

Now I will try to answer your questions as good as I can.
I hope there is still something I could do in The Translation from the Elvish.There is still a lot of work ahead. But most of the work are long winding and slow discussion of minor details.
Could anyone just give me a general idea on the progress so far.Well, still my postings #100 and #106 are still valid and give an nice overview of were we stand right now.
How fast is the work being done?Slow. It is an very easy task to produce a draft version of a chapter. But that does not accomplish much. It is the agreement in this forum that definies what is considered finished. The project has ever since now worked in waves. The last year was a very long, very quiet time, and only recently new people have brought some new movement.
Estimated percentage would help. Indeed, even an approximate deadline would. There is and will definitley never be any deadline! In my view that would be contarey to the soul of the project. Estimated precentages are also very dificult to me. I have no idea how much discussion will be needed in chapters not jet started. That means oferall I have no clou at all. (So refering to our general plan we have only worked on a part of book 1 of "The Tranlations from the Elvish" (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=4453&page=2).)
For the chapters reffered to in posting #100, I would say that "done" means 97 % (some changes are always possible).
While the work on the Narn i Chin Húrin is done to about 80 %, since the changes introduced by The children of Húrin are not yet fully discussed.
At least their are the drafts worked out by myself and not yet under discussion. For this I would say 5 % to 10 % of the work might be the production of the draft.
But even if the chapter is considered done, some new ideas brought up, followed by an realisation of "the truth" by the group could change a lot.
Oferall some of the hard parts are done but their is still much work ahead.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[coopergondor]

Hello.
As a start after looking and reading alot of posts i have noticed many missing letters and quiet a few spelling mistakes.So i would like to offer my services in this area to get me started.
Please don't take this the wrong way but i think you will agree that making sure of all spelling and missing words is very important when dealing with Tolkien's work.
Would it be possible for me to make a start with the new Silmarillion threads, is it possible for me to do those already posted there.
I would very much like to help and mean this in the nicest possible way.

Thank you.

:)

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Mae govannen, mellyn! (estelion ;))

I would like to offer my services to help with this amazing project. I am very well acquainted with The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales. I have also read all of the HoME series, and am most familiar with the last three books, though I am conversant in the others. My primary interest is Tokienian linguistics, though, so I especially enjoy things in that topic. I have studied Quenya, Sindarin, and Adunaic (as far as one can, courtesy of HoME and Ardalambion!) with special emphasis on Sindarin.

I can't say how much time I'll be able to put into this project, but I'll be glad to pitch in wherever I can. I really hope this project succeeds.

[Aiwendil]

I think I (finally) have some time to devote to the project again. Findegil, can you help me remember where we were? I think we had almost finished the Narn i Chin Hurin, is that right? I will look through the Narn threads and try to identify any outstanding issues.

[Findegil]

That is good news!

I think that we were done with the Narn chapters and started the discussion of The Ruin of Beleriand (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15480). Reading again in that thread, I found that I never explained any of the changes introduced, other than the once that were comented by others. It seems that can't be helped now. Because it is so long since I made that draft-version, I remember near to nothing about it.

In addition I think we have some open points in the General changes in TftE (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12834&page=2) thread.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Ekimeniso]

I've already posted a bit in the"Ruin of Beleriand" thread, but I'd like to "formally" introduce myself.

I first stumbled over this site six years ago, when I was trying to compile my own version of the legendarium (in German at that point, similar maybe to gondonwes Spanish version). While I didn't post here back then, I took many ideas and discussions from these threads and used them for my own compilation. The major difference of my work to what is being done here was that it was mainly to please my own taste and thus I took the liberty to edit the original texts quite heavily. I also did some (bad, in retrospect) creative writing, for example, I made (awful) prose translations of those parts of the Lay and Narn I included in my long versions of the Túrin and Beren sagas. The whole work was to be cyclical rather than continuous in the end, with several "books" that were closely connected with each other but could also stand on their own.

Well, it didn't work out...I was rather disgusted with my own inability to finish this project and create some stylistic coherence, and I didn't touch anything to do with Tolkien for several years - but now I'm under his spell again. That's why I'm here and would like to join in this project. For now, I would like to just join in discussions wherever I think I can offer some thoughts - I hope that later on I can do more (regarding drafts and other major work, what is left to do?)

Cheers

[gondowe]

Welcome Ekimeniso, reading your last post, I feel identified.

I don't know if you read all the posts of my thread about my Spanish version, there's a complete structure that is feel final (I hope), but with continual internal revisions (change names, passages, etc) due to the discussions in this forum and my own new ideas.

I'm (due to the last considerations in the homonym thread of this forum)) now considering introduce poem in the VoE part, with the final consequent adding of this part where belongs, thas is, Narn e dant Gondolin, ( adding at last )ar orthad en el.
Possibly disbalanced (for that reason I didn't do before) but to finaly complete the desire of the master.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Ah! Another German making its way down to this barrow!

Herzlich Willkommen und viel Spaß bei den Diskussionen!

I wonder how many of us have a history of failed Tolkien-projects.
I once tried to make a 'Historic Atlas' like that of Karen Wayne Fonstad but as elaborated in the First Age as that one is for the Third. When I had made a lot of maps (by hand mind you) I found that as necessary input for that work I would need an exact timeline of all events. My version of the Tale of the years is still handy some times, but since I never added source information and since it only based on the German translations and because my Meta-theory was very bad at that time it is now worthless. (The finished work of our project would be a nice starting point for a new start on that time-line.)
Beside that I made a German line by line translation of The Lay of the Children of Húrin and started into the rest of HoME 3.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Welcome to the project, Ekimeniso! I too had started putting together my own version of the Silmarillion before I found this project (almost ten years ago now!).

I've been travelling and busy with other things for the past few weeks, but I will have time to look at the latest comments this week, and see if we can finish up the Ruin of Beleriand.

[watson107]

Hello,

The amount of work that has been put into this project is nothing short of amazing! I am a huge fan of Tolkien, and was inspired to search the very daunting WWW forest for anyone who had taken it upon themselves to reconstruct The Silmarillion in way that was closer to what JRRT would have wanted. As someone who is pursuing a career in literature studies, I have always been fascinated by Tolkien's thoroughness. While The Silmarillion is a fascinating read, I was disappointed by the gaps left in ME's mythology by rushed editing and hindered access to JRR's unpublished pieces. I applaud your group for its dedication to such a task!

That being said, if you ever need a helping hand, I would be more than willing to assist. For credentials (which seem to pale in comparison to some of the board members), I have studied The Silmarillion, Lost Tales, earlier volumes int he HoMe series, The Children of Hurin, The Hobbit, and LoTR.


watson107

[Eruhen]

OK, so I'm back on the Downs after an (extremely) extended hiatus. Where does TtfE stand and what still needs doing?

I seem to have misplaced most of my HoME books in my many moves, so all I've got left are the canon and UT. I'll help where I can, though.

[Findegil]

I took very long time for an answer were we stand. My Appologies for that. But that is the way it has gone.

The last discussions were held in the chapter The Ruin of Beleriand. I gave posting of state of afairs in that thread. Here I only will say that we finished the first (unnamed) sub-chapter and nearly finished The death of Fingofin. The other two (short) sub-chapters are drafts untouched by the group.

Beside that we have (at least) two open points in the General Changes thread:
Bauglir -> Baugron
and
Gwarestrin -> Gwarestirin

For the rest of the work I update my resumee from post 100:

The Fall of Gondolin (FoG): Done.

The Darkening of Valinor (DoV): Done. But needs another look into it.

Ainulindalë (AINU): Done.

Valaquenta (Vala): Done.

Of the Voyage of Eärendil & Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath (VE): Done.

Of the Ruin of Doriath (RD): Done.

Narn i Chîn Húrin (Narn; NA): Done. With the single exception of the snippets of the Lay that I would wish for and that have been once voted down, but are still on my mind as worthy additions.

Narn Beren ion Barahir or Narn e•Dinúviel (BL): Done.

For the Silmarillion chapters up to „11 Of the flight of the Noldor“ I have drafts ready for posting. But I will not undertake the work to bring it in postable form before the discussion has reached that point. As a matter of fact Aiwendil had suggested to start from the Ainulindalë and go to all the texts we hav done sofare before starting any new material.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[blue]

Hi, I'd like to help, but I'm a bit overwhelmed with reading through the threads here.

Has someone put together (other than the FAQ thread) an index of pertinent threads to read to get up to speed?

I'm afraid I'm drowning!

A quick initial thought - from Tolkien's letter 131, he did state his desire to see the Silmarillion published with LotR and, to me, that would seem to be (along with the previously published Hobbit) the core set of canonical works.

Thanks and looking forward to assisting!

[Findegil]

Welcome to this quiete part of Downs blue!

There is no Index or somethings else to speed you up, sorry. But I will try to help if possible. Anyhow as you may have observed the forum has long periods of silents in which nothing goes forward. Compared to my last post in this thread we hav now finished our work on The Ruin of Beleriand. After that we started a rediscussion of open points in the previously worked on chapters. In particular The Lay Beren and Lúthien.

To get started you should read the thread Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11821).

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Well, I'm sorry I haven't been around much lately. But with Christmas break approaching, I thought it might be a good time to try and pick up the thread of things here again.

I guess where we left off was reviewing the changes to some of the already finished chapters, and I gather that we were on Beren and Luthien. This week, I will take a look and remind myself where things stand there.

I think I've seen Findegil posting in other corners of the forum fairly recently. Is anyone else still around?

[aravanessë]

Sometimes, sometimes.. :)

[Aiwendil]

Good to see you, aravanesse!

[gandalf85]

Are you guys still working on this? It's been a while since anyone has posted in the public forums. I honestly don't think I'd have time to write anything myself, but I'd love to review anything you guys have and provide suggestions. I love the idea of re-creating Bilbo's Translations as 3 volumes using the most up-to-date and consistent material we have from HoME and UT and the Sil.

[lindil]

Hi G85

Yes, this can be the quietist barrow of them all sometimes. But the work done over the 12 plus yeears, egads! well the work aiwendil and I and a few others started way back has gone on and I would love to join you in a top to bottowm review.

i think I am ready to do my end which was turn the rough footnote-ridden edits back into readable prose - with the hopeful help of some fellow editors.

But a thorough review is a great idea.

welcome to the weightiest, most ponderous and obscure corner of the downs!

[lindil]

oh, another little bit of celebratory data! over 20, 800 visits to this thread, seeing what we are up to. Impressive. as is the project. Still to my knowledge the only one like it on the net. Anyone know of others?

[Eruhen]

OK, wights, it's time to get dem bones up and moving again!

I'm back and ready for this with a will. I'm going to dig down through the threads and try and work things into a readable text. I'll post PDFs of chapters as I finish them. There's been a lot of work done, but there's still much more to do.

[lindil]

Sounds perfect eruhen. Recovering from. Multiple fractures so j got some time! Just how do u picture chapters? Without apparatus? Just straight text? That was always my vison of final version. On phone now so limited but will have laptop back in a few days. Beautiful to see the enthusiaam! Yes Lot has been done since this was launched in 2oo1 or 2.

[Eruhen]

I'm just planning on straight text for now, but I'll confess that my vision since the beginning has honestly been a four-volume set bound in red leather with illuminated frontispieces for each chapter, illuminated capitals, and decorative borders. I'm talking full-on Medieval codex, here.

For now, though, I'm just aiming on a working, readable copy without paragraph headings and editors' marks.

[Findegil]

Eruhen, I can in one point only echo Lindil: It is nice to see your enthusiaam. I'm going to dig down through the threads and try and work things into a readable text.You my do so, if you like but it is unnecessary. The porject has not worked without producing what you are seaching for. It is a long time since the last time I made a plain text document out of my working copy, but that will be much easier and faster then going through all the threads and work out our last version.I'll post PDFs of chapters as I finish them.If that wouldn't violate the copy right law, we would have done so years ago. So please don't do this.
If you really want to wake this project out of its very long time of deep silence, please read to the follwoing thread (at least the last pages). That is were open points of discussions are left over from the last phase of activity.
*A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin* (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=4410&page=4)
Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=681209#post681209)
Anyhow, as I told already in post #100 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=532201&postcount=100), I have drafts ready for the chapters of the Silmarillion up to chapter 11. If you would like to start the discussion with one of these, please speak up and we will see if any body comes up with a good reason to hold back.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

It's wonderful to see all of you here!

I must apologize for this last long period of inactivity; real life circumstances have been preventing me from being able to find the time for this project. But for a while now I have been meaning to try and make the time for it.

I'll take a look at those threads to try to remind myself of the outstanding points.

I think that I also still have some notes kicking around on my hard drive on issues I had found in the other finished chapters, which I think it would be good to look at before moving on.

[Eruhen]

I'll take a look at the links, too. Also, what happened to the private forum with the drafts and other such sausage-making? Did it get lost in the shuffle?

[lindil]

I think we should move any discussion of texts to private forum. I hear u findegil...not looking rk cause trouble! :smokin:

[Eruhen]

I would love to move to the private forum, lindil; however, I can't seem to find it. If someone would like to send me a link, I would be eternally grateful.

[lindil]

Lol it has been so long I forget how access works. Aiwendil or I will get you in asap. Apologies.

~ the rusty mod.

[Eruhen]

Hey, folks. Any word on the getting me back into the private forum front?

[The Barrow-Wight]

Eruhen,

I've given you access to the Private forum. Let me know if it doesn't work.

Thanks,
BW

[Findegil]

To clear upo what I meant: Discussion should be held here in the public forum. There are no matters that need be hidden in our search for the real story of Middel-earth. As seen in all threads we are able to keep the amount of text included as quote in the discussion low and with that, as I think, well inside the boundary of copy right law.
What should be restricted to the privat forum is the full quote text as a result of our editing.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Corsair_Caruso]

Hello. I've been a somewhat inconsistent member of the forum for a short time, but I would love to be a part of this project. I'll make my way through the threads and put my two cents in if and when I see the opportunity. I hope I can make some kind of meaningful contribution to this worthy endeavor.

[Findegil]

Welcome to this very obscure part of the Downs Corsair_Caruso!

We will appriciate each and every contribution. Don't by shy! And if our answers do not allways come imediatly or are some times short and sound as if our minds are fixed in a what has been discussed before, let that not dount you! The first and formost thing that this project needs are active members! And since it seems that some of the longer time members are no longer very active, input from new members is very welcome.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Welcome! I'll second everything Findegil said. Please don't hesitate to comment on anything, and feel free to ask questions.

[gondowe]

I had lost the "estel" for the forum, trying to communicate with both Aiwendil and Findegil. But now I was watching in TV the Russian version of Hamlet, and remembered Alas, poor Yorick, :) ;and I tried luck, and here is again ¡¡¡¡¡.
I'll try to retake the lost threads, I'm very busy with the real Middle-earth and my kids but I'm happy to read you again.

Greetings.

[Arvegil145]

Hello everyone!

I have been following this project for some time, and I am also doing my own private revision of The Silmarillion. As it turned out, I have already made a profile on this site years ago, and found, while trying to register, that my email was already in use.

Anyway, I'm quite excited to contribute as I may to the project, if you wouldn't mind another nuisance on the board. :D

[Findegil]

Welcome Arvegil145,

will allway love nuisance on the board other wise we would not try to keep this project alive.

As the project has long been in stasis it is not easy to advise were to start, so for the time beenig I can only say feel free to comment were ever you see a reason for it.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Hello Findegil!

I sincerely thank you for your reply, especially considering how lively this forum is lately. Just one thing, if you could be so kind to tell where you guys currently are? I'd like to keep up with the project as well as I can.

Thank you in advance!

[Findegil]

Post 134 in this thread sume it still up very nicely.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello Arvegil145 it's nice to have another collaborator with the project, I hope you have more time to dedicate than me. I'm going to show you my complete structure of the 5 volumes of the texts of Arda, The Thain's Book, posting it in the thread started by me about my personal project (in spanish). And i'll try to write post replies on the rest of the threads reopened by you.

Greetings

[Drorin]

Hi!
I'm an spanish follower of Tolkien's work since he was 11, yeah, I started the hobby with Jackson's films, but that was just the beginning. I've read all the books that a normal fan has read and now I'm with HOME.
I will found the project a couple of years, but the messages were very old. I am glad that you have returned to the project. I will not be much help because my English is not very high and only gives me to understand what I read.
So I just want to inform you that here you have someone who expects this fantastic project and goes on to say that thanks to you I learned things I did not even know.

Forgive my English and good job guys!

[Gothmog, LoB]

I'd like to sign up, too, assuming this whole thing is still a thing. And even if it is not it might still be of some use to assess what you have done and to give some sort of input. Findegil might still remember despite the fact that it has been quite some time...

A few years ago I dabbled myself a little bit in this kind of thing, although on a much smaller scale. I created two emendations of the Tale of Years of the Second and Third Age, mostly but not exclusively on the basis of cut material published in PoME (other sources were 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn', 'The Line of Elros', and details only touched upon in Appendix A.

I'm not sure if this can be any help in this kind of thing but whoever wants to read the finished versions (which still contain a few errors here and there) can do so in issue #11 of the Other Minds magazine, to be found here http://othermindsmagazine.com/downloads/om-english/om-011-other-minds-eng-20110118.pdf/at_download/file

[Findegil]

Welcome to this very quiet dungeon in the Barrow Downs, Gothmog!

If you succeed in stirring some life back into this project, I will gladly join up in what ever goes forward.

Respectfully,
Findegil

[Gothmog, LoB]

Thank you, Findegil!

I'd gladly begin by assessing whatever you already have done. The impression I get is that you have done some work in some fashion in some places I cannot yet access ;-).

And I'd prefer beginning by commenting on work that has already been done rather by suggesting or bringing up stuff you have already done.

Edit: You might want to delete some PMs so that you can be contacted directly via the board ;-).

[Findegil]

It is not so that we have done work in a place that you cannot access. The work is done here in the public forum (only in earlier times some small parts were done in a private part of the forum, more by exident then by intention). But as you of course know, copy right resrictes us from giving very body open access to the resulting text.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I have clean up my private message box.

[natedeug]

I'm not sure how much help I would be, but I would love to get a chance to check out your progress in the private forum. I've only read Silmarillion twice, Children of Hurin once, and none of HoME, but I'm really intrigued with what you're trying to accomplish here.

[natedeug]

I want to begin reading through some of the chapters that are still in progress, but the notation system seems rather oblique to an outsider.

I've read the stickied notation post, but it still doesn't seem to cover all the points about what is actually a part of the intended draft, and what is the removed or replaced sections.

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong section. Any guidance would be appreciated.

But then, as I've only read The Silmarillion twice and CoH once, perhaps you don't actually want me leaving comments? I know that you are trying to be guarded in respect to the password for the private forum, but I would be happy to stay around and comment. I'm interested in seeing some of the finalized chapters, as the working posts for each chapter don't show how these things end up as "completed" works.

[Findegil]

I want to begin reading through some of the chapters that are still in progress, but the notation system seems rather oblique to an outsider.

I've read the stickied notation post, but it still doesn't seem to cover all the points about what is actually a part of the intended draft, and what is the removed or replaced sections.

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong section. Any guidance would be appreciated.My posting #16 in that thread is probably still a good condensation.

But then, as I've only read The Silmarillion twice and CoH once, perhaps you don't actually want me leaving comments?Be asured that we all like to get any input we can get! And we all knew that it is quite difficult to start (since not many of the active members have been starting members).

I know that you are trying to be guarded in respect to the password for the private forum, but I would be happy to stay around and comment. I'm interested in seeing some of the finalized chapters, as the working posts for each chapter don't show how these things end up as "completed" works.It might be that you would be disapointed with what you would/will find in the private forum. There are not (at least only in some cases) clean text versions of the chapters. Mostly it is only complete draft texts in the editied fromat. Any chapter that is started here is there in first draft version, the more finished chapters in more than one version. But your are of couse right that it is not easy to work through our often fare ranging discussion and keep track of how the editing evolved. Name the chapter you would like to start with and I will see how I can get you going.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Once again, I've got to apologize for my long absence.

I hope everyone's doing well. Who's around? I wonder if we can try to refresh our memories about where we were and try to make progress on this again. I should, I hope, have a bit more time to devote to this now.

[Alassë Estel]

Hello! I am here, and have been since June so we've not met yet. But I am afraid I haven't any clue about this project. Sorry I can't help, but it is lovely to meet you!

[Elvellon]

Hi everybody. I'm brand new here, but not new to Tolkien. I was re-reading the Silmarillion recently, after a (too) long hiatus of reading in general. Somehow I stumbled upon this project and I feel like I could be of some help, if help is needed, that is. I have been a copyeditor and proofreader, as well as a layout designer and digital typesetter for about 20 years.

I'm here to help, if you would have me!

[Aiwendil]

Welcome, Elvellon! And Alasse Estel (Though I guess you've been around for a bit, while I was away.)

This project has been slower than molasses recently (largely my fault, I fear), but I'm hoping that it's not yet dead. Please feel free to poke around the old threads and get acquainted with our methods and madness.

[Alassë Estel]

Thanks very much! And welcome to The Barrow-Downs, Elvellon.

[ArcusCalion]

Once again, I've got to apologize for my long absence.

I hope everyone's doing well. Who's around? I wonder if we can try to refresh our memories about where we were and try to make progress on this again. I should, I hope, have a bit more time to devote to this now.

I am still lurking, I check for updates once in a blue moon, but I would be happy to try to keep working! I believe we were most recently trying to finalize/update Chapter 4: Of the Coming of the Elves.

Welcome to new members! I myself only started work on this project in 2016, so I'm comparatively new to this as well. Findegil and I together with Gondowe basically completed a pass-through of the entire narrative from the creation to the end of the third age, and when we last left off, Aiwendil was helping us finalize our versions of the chapters starting from the beginning. We were on chapter 4. If either of you have any questions concerning the project, such as methods, texts, changes, etc, please feel free to reach out to me in dms, as I'm the first to admit that this forum is EXTREMELY dense and hard to parse out!

[Arvegil145]

I am still lurking, I check for updates once in a blue moon, but I would be happy to try to keep working! I believe we were most recently trying to finalize/update Chapter 4: Of the Coming of the Elves.

Sorry - if you don't mind, but I forgot where The Wanderings of Hurin are?

I searched through the subforum, but can't find a thread with that name.

[ArcusCalion]

Sorry - if you don't mind, but I forgot where The Wanderings of Hurin are?

I searched through the subforum, but can't find a thread with that name.

Those were finalized before my time with the project, but I believe it is included in the Ruin of Doriath narrative.

[Mithadan]

Alasse and Elvellon, if you would like access to the private TftE Forum, please send me a private message.

[Val Balmer]

Hi everyone,

I am new here as Val Balmer, but my interesest with your project goes far beyond, I had a previous account (I lost the credentials) as Echtelion in the past.

As others I have made my own versions of extended Silmarillion and other narratives and, even if I don't have much time, I'd like to have a look at your complete works and maybe give my contribution from time to time.

Would it be possible to have access?

[Elvellon]

Welcome, Elvellon! And Alasse Estel (Though I guess you've been around for a bit, while I was away.)

This project has been slower than molasses recently (largely my fault, I fear), but I'm hoping that it's not yet dead. Please feel free to poke around the old threads and get acquainted with our methods and madness.

Thank you for the warm welcome! I've been reading through the **'d threads and it's been fascinating seeing the evolution of the various projects. Although, is the html or bbcode showing up for anyone else or just me? It seems like maybe the oldest threads were broken by a forum change/upgrade or something at some point in the past?

[Mithadan]

Alasse, Elvellon and Val Balmer, you have all been given access to the private TftE forum. It should appear directly below this forum. If it does not, try logging out and back in. Let me know if you have issues.

[Aiwendil]

Welcome (back), Val Balmer!

Although, is the html or bbcode showing up for anyone else or just me? It seems like maybe the oldest threads were broken by a forum change/upgrade or something at some point in the past?

Yes, the forum was migrated from a different place a while back, and the old board used html while this one uses BBCode, so all the old html is broken. Kind of gives one the feeling of deciphering an ancient text when you read really old threads.

[Elvellon]

Alasse, Elvellon and Val Balmer, you have all been given access to the private TftE forum. It should appear directly below this forum. If it does not, try logging out and back in. Let me know if you have issues.
Much obliged! I see it just fine without any need to log out.


Yes, the forum was migrated from a different place a while back, and the old board used html while this one uses BBCode, so all the old html is broken. Kind of gives one the feeling of deciphering an ancient text when you read really old threads.
That's what I suspected. And yes, that's exactly what it feels like! A language I once knew, the meaning now obscured beneath the dust of long-decayed memories, the skill of its writing withered by ages of disuse.

[Val Balmer]

Welcome (back), Val Balmer!



Yes, the forum was migrated from a different place a while back, and the old board used html while this one uses BBCode, so all the old html is broken. Kind of gives one the feeling of deciphering an ancient text when you read really old threads.

Thanks! There a huge quantity of material to read... any suggestion on where to start or on how to improve the reading experience :)

[Aiwendil]

I am still lurking, I check for updates once in a blue moon, but I would be happy to try to keep working! I believe we were most recently trying to finalize/update Chapter 4: Of the Coming of the Elves.

I'll try to take a look at that chapter again and see where we were.

There's also the issue of the Ruin of Doriath in light of "Concerning 'The Hoard'" being revealed last year.

I hope Findegil checks back sometimes. Maybe I'll send him a PM in case he gets e-mail notifications for those.

There a huge quantity of material to read... any suggestion on where to start or on how to improve the reading experience

I think that just reading through some of the discussion threads is the only way. The ones that have had full discussions of the drafts are largely the later chapters, from "Beren and Luthien" to "The Voyage of Earendil", and the early ones, from the Ainulindale up to "Concerning the Naugrim, Ents, and Eagles".

[Findegil]

Please take a (belated) but heartfelt welcome from me Alassë Estel and Elvellon!

And to all the others welcome back!

I am glad about the new and renewd interest!

Not so easy to say where we stand right now, but ArcusCalion gave as good a summary as I could have made. What he left out was the fact that we have been through in the middle of volume III: The Lore of the Wise' when we stopped. So that some drafts are not yet collected here.

For all the newer members: I would start at chapter 4: Of the Coming of the Elves. Because that is most likley the place where we veterans will start to work (if we do, I have read to many short living restarts to be sure). Read first the draft in the private forum. (In this case it is only one version, in other cases start from the back to find the begining of the latest. The latest should all be new enough to be fairly readable - no broken html). And then pick up the discussion of the chapter here in the public forum. Next I would suggest to start from the begining chapters and work forward. In a similar way: read the draft in the privte forum and if you have a question about the changes consult the discussion in the public forum or simply ask there. (As a reminder: all discussions should be here in the public forum, the private forum is just a kind of archiv.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Raedoron]

Hello. I am new here and very interested in this project. I have attempted on several occasions to compile a similar project (in a much more limited form) of my own.

I am not sure what I will be able to contribute. After having read through a few of the threads, a lot of the discussion seems a bit beyond me, despite having read through The Silmarillion and UT more times than I can count and HoME at least three or four times (I'm on another read-through of everything now). I am also currently in the middle of PhD work of my own, so my scholarly chops are exhausted after working with that research.

Those caveats aside, I would be happy to assist in any way I can, and am interested in staying up to date on the discussion even where I have nothing useful to add.