Celebrimbor

[Telchar]

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I've just finished reading the thread on the Parentage of Orodreth and Erenion/Gil-galad. I have a question which you guys will proberly find easy, still here goes.
In the Tread it is said that Celebrimbor &quot;had affection for Finrod (and his wife, of whom Im not conserned in this question) in Nargothrond... hmmm this goes well with the story of Celebrimbor being the son of Curufin, staying in N after his Father was cast out. But it doesn't go good with the Essay of the Elessar where Celebrimbor is said to be a Noldorin elf of Gondolin.

Which of these to stories is dated latest?
If Celebrimbor was from Gondolin he wouldn't be of Fëanorian Line, but proberly neither of a Descentent close enough to Turgon to claim the title of High King??

Can anybody clarify?

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[Pengolodh]

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Re: Celebrimbor

I believe Celebrimbor as a Grandson to Feanor, living in Nargothrond is both the later and more &quot;complete&quot; version, if you will.

The Elessar essay has him making both Elessars, one in Gondolin and the second in Eregion. Since he was in Nargothrond in the First Age, as mentioned also in the published Silmarillion, he must have made the first Elessar there. That is the only way I can reconcile the two ideas.

Celebrimbor as a Gondolin inhabitant doesn't make sense when you consider his parentage of course. You could however also say that it was indeed Enerdhil who made the first Elessar in Gondolin and have Celebrimbor make the second one, as is said in the Elessar essay itself. You would then, have to exclude, Tolkien's later note that there is no Enerdhil and Celebrimbor made them both.

Cheers

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

[Aiwendil]

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Re: Celebrimbor

Considering the statement in LotR that Celebrimbor was a Feanorian, and that in RGEO that Galadriel was among the rebel Noldor, we cannot accept the Amanian Telerin story of Celebrimbor; nor can we accept that he was of the Gondolodrim. In this case, we cannot follow Tolkien's latest ideas because of insoluble contradictions with his published works. I see no reason to assume that Celebrimbor made the first Elessar in Nargothrond: how then would it have come to Idril and Earendil? I think the only solution is to go back to the story that the first was made by Enerdhil in Gondolin.

</p>

[Telchar]

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Re: Celebrimbor

You both make perfekt sence - But Aiwendil, you make a very good point that I did not think of; the problem with getting the stone to Idril &amp; Co.
Taking that into consideration I actually like the version of only one Elessar made by Enerdhil in Gondolin, and then Gandalf bringing it back to Galadriel as a token of the good will of the Valar.

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[Pengolodh]

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.....

I didn't think of that. It had to be given to her yes, so you would only have to change my creation in Nargothrond to creation in Gondolin <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

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[Telchar]

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Re: .....

But if Celebrimbor is from Gondolin and made it there, if I understand you correct :-) - then how can he be a grandson of Feänor???

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[Telchar]

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Re: .....

When I think about it only two posibilities fit:
1: Enerdhil made the first and only Elessar in Gondolin, it passed over the Sea and was brought back to Galadriel by Gandalf.

2: Enerdhil made the first Elessar in Gondolin, it passed over the Sea. The second Ellesar was made around SA 1000 in Eregion by Celebrimbor. Givin to Galadriel as a gift.

The two explainations above hold up with Celecrimbor being a grandson of Feänor. If you want to hold that both or at least the first Elessar was made by Celebrimbor, then you must also I think abandon teh thought that he is of Feänorian descent.

Cheers Telchar

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[Pengolodh]

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Re: .....

That was my point Telchar <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

The first one would have to made by Enerdhil, as I stated in my first post, made in Gondolin. The second made by Celembrimbor in the land of Eregion.

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000097>Pengolodh</A> at: 4/26/01 8:57:46 am

[Aiwendil]

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Re: .....

I suggest that it be left ambiguous whether there was really a second Elessar or if it was merely the first returned. JRRT seems to imply in UT that the people of Middle-earth didn't know which was true; though I suppose there are things they wouldn't know, but the reader should. However, in this case it might be important to maintain a distinction between two contradictory stories by Tolkien - in which case we have to sort out which one to use - and two contradictory stories among the loremasters who wrote the tales - in which case the ambiguity is embedded, and can be retained.

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[jallanite]

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Re: Re: .....

I see no reason why Celebrimbor might not have been in Gondolin following the Sack of Nargothrond, unless there is some unrecalled text telling of his whereabouts elsewhere.

We know that some Elves of Nargothrond were taken captive by the sacking army and presumbably made prisoners of Morgoth. But others apparently fled to Doriath. That some sought out the Hidden City is reasonable. Surely at least Celebrimbor should not be thought of as dwelling with his father and the other Fëanorians during their final grim deeds.

The first line of The Elessar need only be changed to &quot;There was in Gondolin a jewel-smith named Celebrimbor of Nargothrond, son of Curufin son of Fëanor, the greatest of that craft among the Noldor after the death of Fëanor.&quot; Later occurrences of &quot;Enerdhil&quot; can be changed to &quot;Celebrimbor&quot; in the account of the first Elessar and the first account of the second Elessar (if it is to be preserved as a variant). For the second account of the second Elessar I suggest emendation of the passage as follows, using italics to indicate words to be removed, and words in square brackets to indicate changes of names:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And Celebrimbor said: 'Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? And Enerdhil who made it is gone.' ' They have passed over Sea,' said Galadriel, 'with almost all fair things else. But must then Middle-earth fade and perish for ever?'
****'This is its fate, I deem,' said Celebrimbor. 'But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if haply by my art your grief can be lessened.' But he did not say to Galadriel that he himself was of Gondolin long ago, and a friend of Enerdhil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enerdhil had not been then Celebrimbor would have been more renowned. Therefore he took thought and began a long and delicate labour, and so for Galadriel he made the greatest of his works (save the Three Rings only). And it is said that more subtle and clear was the green gem that he made than that of Enerdhil [Eärendil], but yet its light had less power. For whereas that of Enerdhil [Eärendil] was lit by the Sun in its youth, already many years had passed ere Celebrimbor began his work, and nowhere in Middle-earth was the light as clear as it had been, for though Morgoth had been thrust out into the Void and could not enter again, his far shadow lay upon it.<hr></blockquote>










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[Telchar]

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Re: Re: .....

I think this basicly ruin the thought of Gondolin as a hidden city. Why should Celebrimbor be able to find Gondolin when there is no history of anybody else haven found the way without being lead???

<img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> T

Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

[jallanite]

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Re: Other Elessar reconstructions

If it is to be accepted that Celebrimbor was in Gondolin when he made the first Elessar, it makes no difference how he came there. But I agree it is unlikely he found it on his own and more likely he was led. To speculate more would be fan fiction.

It would also be possible to place the making of the Elessar in Nargothrond, as has been suggested, and then the giving of it to Idril would occur while Turgon still dwelt at Vinyamar.

Why give it to Indril?

Suddenly (in fan fiction mode) one sees Celebrimbor as doubly unlucky in love. His first love, Idril, vanishes with her father and their people to a hidden city beyond knowledge. And then later Galadriel choses Celeborn. But for each he has created an Elessar.

Another answer would be to include in the main projected Silmarillion narrative only what is beyond dispute. Here is such a patchwork, using the symbol &quot;/&quot; as a paste mark, and added words in italics, takng the account from The Elessar as found in Unfinished Tales:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Elessar / was / a jewel / green as leaves / within which the clear light of the sun / was / imprisoned. The Noldor marvelled at it. For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt. / Idril / wore it upon her breast; and so it was saved from the burning of Gondolin.<hr></blockquote>The story then continues exactly as in Unfinished Tales. It would be broken into two parts, one just after the birth of Elrond and Elros, and he other after the summary of Eärendil's first voyage, or the entire accout could be inserted at that place. This is all that is actually needed to provide a Slmarillion account to explain the references in The Lord of the Rings.

The full account might then appear in an appendices dealing with variant legends and traditions.

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[Telchar]

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Re: Other Elessar reconstructions

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> jallanite said:
If it is to be accepted that Celebrimbor was in Gondolin when he made the first Elessar, it makes no difference how he came there. But I agree it is unlikely he found it on his own and more likely he was led. To speculate more would be fan fiction.<hr></blockquote>

I personally can't accept that!

I can nowhere find any reference (beside the one consernng the Elessar) that suggest that Celebrimbor had ever been to Gondolin - I think a person of his statue would have been remembered If he had been with the company of Tuor and Idril. I think the tale is much more beliveable and logical if he was a Grandson of Fëanor that stayed in Nargothrond after his father was bannished. Fleeing to the Havens after the Sack of Nargothrond
The Alternative, I personally belive is quite unlikely: Celebrimbor fleeing from Nargothrond in FA 496 somehow getting to Gondolin, much the same time as Tuor and making the Elessar before the fall of Gondolin in FA 511. Then Escaping from the Fall without ever being mentioned in the tales of Turin or Tuor - whice both were quite extensive - Sorry, but I just don't bye it!

If you want Celebrombor to make the 1st Elessar I think you have to dismis him as a Grandson of Fëanor!

<img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> Telchar


Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000018>Telchar</A> at: 6/5/01 1:40:15 am

[lindil]

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Re: Celebrimbor

agreed, Celebrimbor as anyone other than son of Feanor is like a little 'Myth's transformed' it destroys more than it creaes.

There is an important symmetry in Feanor creating the 3 silmarills and then his grandson creating the 3 rings.

lindil

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[jallanite]

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Re: Celebrimbor in Gondolin

It would of course have been no difficulty at all for Tolkien to reasonably put Celebrimbor son of Curufin in Gondolin, whether recruited by a messenger of Turgon, or going there with Turgon from Vinyamar, having taken service with him because of estrangment from his father (this estrangement now happening earlier).

But our hands are bound.

Assuming Celebrimbor's Fëanorian parentage is retained, the choices for relating the making of the Elessar are, I believe, the following:


***** A. None of the Elessar material is used.



***** B. The Elessar material is used:


*****1. It is not told by whom the first Elessar was made.
************ See an example of this in my last post.

*****2. It is told by whom the first Elessar was made:

************a. The first Elessar was made by Enerdhil of Gondolin.
***************** This account was early rejected by Tolkien, perhaps almost as written.

************b. The first Elessar was made by Celebrimbor:
***************** See example in a previous post by myself in this thread.
***** *******************i. In Gondolin
********************************* But how did this descendant of Fëanor come there?
********************************* No account survives as Celebrimbor not important to main story.
************************ii. Not specified as in Gondolin.
********************************* Remove words &quot;in Gondolin&quot; from first sentence.
*********************************A. Made before Turgon went to Vinyamar.
*************************************** Account placed shortly before Turgon leaves Vinyamar.
*************************************** Perhaps after &quot;... and it became Gondolin, the Hidden Rock.&quot;
*************************************** Include mention that Idril bore it on her breast.
*********************************B. Place undefined and time undefined.
*************************************** As a backflash when describing Idril in Gondolin.
********************************************* or
*************************************** As a backflash just before the gem is given to Eärendil.


None of the above are totally satisfactory, but ...

</p>

[Telchar]

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Re: Celebrimbor

I think its simpler than that:
1: Either you drop the total exsistence of Enerdhil and make Celebrimbor a elf of Gondolin (of the house of Fingolfin/Turgon) Making the first of two Elessars in Gondolin

or 2: You go with Enerdhil making the first and maybe only Elessar

Although - as lindil states - the symmetry of Celebrimbor being a grandson of Fëanor works more beautiful. But the more I reread the passage I lean towards the idear of Celebrimbor being a elf of Gondolin (of the house of Fingolfin/Turgon).

But maybe the question should be solved the other way around - by concentrating on the parentage of Celebrimbor rather than &quot;Who made the Elessar&quot;. For instance when do you belive that Celeborn was born? In Aman or in Beleriand?


Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

[lindil]

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Re: Celebrimbor

intriuging work jallanite- given a clear set of options I favor 2.b.ii.
remove the words in Gondolin.
Celebrimbor is stated as having been in Nargothrond and to go moving elf-princes around w/ out a nod from the prof, is unneccesary and somewhat presumptous. although I am willing in general to do a back flip w/ the texts to keep something intriguing or beautiful, it seems some part of the conflicting eleesar stories must go and the words in Gondolin are the easiest way out methinks.

again nice summary, you and Tar elenion are 2 birds of a feather it would seem.



Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Telchar]

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Re: Celebrimbor

I personally think this is the easy way out - It's like taking The One West - easy but not right - It does not solve the problem of how Idril got the stone... unless I have misunderstood something <img src=frown.gif ALT=":(">

Telchar

Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

[Aiwendil]

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Celebrimbor

I have to disagree with this solution. Perhaps I merely fail to understand the proposed narrative - but I still don't see how the Elessar could come to Idril in this way. A) Why would it pass from a descendant of Feanor to Turgon's family? and B) When was it made? Having Celebrimbor make it and then having it later turn up in Gondolin requires its existence prior to the founding of Gondolin - and every indication from Tolkien suggests a later date for its making.

I think it's better to keep Enerdhil; of the possible solutions, it's the one that agrees best with the rest of the Legendarium.



</p>

[jallanite]

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Re: Celebrimbor

If you mean, just omitting the words &quot;in Gondolin&quot; is too easy, because it leaves things vague, then I agree.

It is half-removing a difficulty. A reader then must guess whether the giving of the stone to Idril happened in Vinaymar before Idril depearted to Gondolin or whether Celebrimbor did indeed end up in Gondolin. So why not just put in Gondolin, since that's where Tolkien put him at that time? But would Tolkien have done so if Celebrimbor was a descendant of Fëanor?

Everything feels somewhat wrong, including using the discarded Enerdhil.

But since Celebrimbor is made a descendant of Fëanor in LR, he must remain so by the rules, or so I understand. And Curufin as his father is as good as anything and the only one Tolkien names. He cannot be one of the Sindar or one of the Teleri who crossed with Teleporno as in variant Tolkien accounts.

Therefore I gather you would go the Enerdhil route.

The passages from which Christopher Tolkien's Celebrimbor material in the published Quenta Silmarillion derive all appear in The Peoples of Middle-earth, chapter X, &quot;Of Dwarves and Men&quot;, Note 7. There he was born in Aman, but his unnamed mother did not accompany the Noldor into exile.

At the moment I'm thinking that removing all mention of how the stone was made may be best. It is just Idril's stone and these are its powers.

</p>

[Telchar]

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Re: Celebrimbor

OK - So we know he was born in Aman, which gives him both the age and wisdom to create the stone. I think we can rule out that it was made during the time in Araman, so it had to be made in the first 100 years of the first age or more proberly (which I myself find unlikely) in the 40 years after Dagor Aglareb and the beginning if the Siege of Angband. That is the only time it could be made if it was not made IN GONDOLIN.

Celebimbor himself in Gondolin is too conflicting with the rest of the material.

My own guess is that when Tolkien wrote the last remark in the essay conserning the Elessar he had something greater in mind - Like removing Celebrimbor completely from the &quot;stained&quot; house of Fëanor. Very much like he changed his wiev on the parentage on Gil-Galad and Orodreth.

The really really easy way out is just accepting the Enerdhil-story, then you also would be able to use the sentance: &quot;In ages after there was again an Elessar, and of this two things are said,though which is true only those Wise could say who are now gone.

The Enerdhil-story in no way conflicts with the rest of the published material - as I see it.
It doesn't conflict with what we are told about Celebrimbors parentage and it doesn't raise question about how Idril got in possesion of the stone.

<img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> Telchar


Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000018>Telchar</A> at: 6/7/01 1:33:29 am

[lindil]

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Re: Celebrimbor

Telchar posted:The really really easy way out is just accepting the
Enerdhil-story, then you also would be able to use the
sentance: &quot;In ages after there was again an Elessar, and
of this two things are said,though which is true only
those Wise could say who are now gone.

The Enerdhil-story in no way conflicts with the rest of the
published material - as I see it.
It doesn't conflict with what we are told about Celebrimbors
parentage and it doesn't raise question about how Idril got
in possesion of the stone.

Lindil: I think that due to the vast number of contradictions , discrepancies and unresolved conumdrums leaving this reference to divergent traditions in is quite appropriate. come to think of it i know of about 100 other places I could put it in the silmarillion <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> -

I def. spoke hastily re: the previous 'solution'.



Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Telchar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Celebrimbor

How beautiful, that the beloved JRRT - that leaves us with so many problems, also leaves us with the backdoor open <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Celebrimbor

The numerous contradictory accounts concerning the history of Galadriel not the least of which is the Elessar tale is what led me to abandon an attempt to dedicate a chapter of the Tales from Tol Eressea to Galadriel.

With respect to the Elessar and Celebrimbor, you may be missing (or glossing over) one possibility (for which there is no textual evidence). I agree that Celebrimbor, by virtue of the discussion in LoTR, is &quot;bound&quot; to the House of Feanor. Assuming that Celebrimbor was born in Aman, he may have known Idril there. Consider, Idril's Aunt Aredhel was a close friend of the sons of Feanor. Celebrimbor and Idril then could have been friends, or perhaps Celebrimbor was enamored of Idril's beauty, and the Elessar could have been a gift to her either in Aman or before she entered Gondolin. Another alternative would be that it was a gift to signify the setting aside of the greivances between the houses after the rescue of Maedhros by Fingon. If the gift were given in Middle Earth, the Elessar could have been crafted in Beleriand by Celebrimbor and then entered Gondolin.

Forgive me if I parrot other's opinions. The above speculation (certainly not canon) at least provides a motive for the giving of the Elessar by Celebrimbor to Idril.

Telchar, so far as chronology is concerned, my recollection is that the Elessar tale and the other writings about Galadriel were among JRRT's last writings about Middle Earth.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Telchar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Celebrimbor

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Mithadan said:
...and the Elessar could have been a gift to her either in Aman or before she entered Gondolin.<hr></blockquote>

Yes there is the possibility that it was made and given to Idril in Beleriand (Though I think it is unlikely - it is said about the second Elessar that Celebrimbor made that &quot;He bagan a long and delicate labour...&quot; - As stated above I think the timespan is too short)
The Elessar could not have been made in Aman since the Elessar was a stone wherein the light of the Sun should be imprisoned. (You need a Sun raise before you can see the sun)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Mithadan said
...so far as chronology is concerned, my recollection is that the Elessar tale and the other writings about Galadriel were among JRRT's last writings about Middle Earth.<hr></blockquote>

Im sorry for my ignorance in failure to understand where you are going with this last remark? Could you explain? <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

<img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> Telchar

Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Celebrimbor

Sorry. Misread a prior post. I thought you (or someone) had asked about the timing of the creation of some of these materials. I agree about the sun issue. Forgot that reference.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Telchar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Celebrimbor

No problem - have a nice weekend <img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">

Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

[jallanite]

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Re: Celebrimbor

In The War of the Jewels, in the chapter &quot;Maeglin&quot;, Tolkien explains why Curufin and Celegorm did not send word of Aredhel to Gondolin:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now they could only get word to Gondolin by facing evil perils, which only her rescue from misery would have seemed to them sufficient reason. Moreover while she was happy and at ease they delayed*** believing that even if Turgon was informed he would only have demanded her return (since his permission to her to depart was void after her disobedience). But before they had made up their minds she was again lost, and it was a long time before they knew or even guessed what had become of her. This they did eventually when Areðel again began to visit the borders of Nan Elmoth, or stray beyond them. For they held a constant watch on Nan Elmoth, mistrusting the doings and goings of Eöl, and their scouts espied her at times riding in the sunlight by the wood-eaves. But now it seemed too late [to] them; and thy all [ ? read they thought that all] they would get for any peril would be the rebuke or wrath of Turgon. And this [they] wished in no way to receive.<hr></blockquote>That Curufin and Celegorm did not know Gondolin's location or approach is not even considered. They knew it. They could have sent messengers to Turgon. It was presumably known by the other sons of Fëanor, and quite possibly by Curufin's son Celebrimbor.

So Celebrimbor might have come to Gondolin on his own. Whether he did ...

I would rather picture Celebrimbor in Morgoth's mines than at the Mouth of Sirion, as otherwise one expects some word of what part he plays in the attacks of the sons of Fëanor. Of course nothing is told either way, and there is no necessity that anything be told.

</p>

[Telchar]

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Re: Celebrimbor

Personally I don't think the sons of Fëanor knew the location of Gondolin! They could have - how I do not know...
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Turgon to Aredhel:
I grudge you nothing that I have. Yet I desire that none shall dwell beyond my walls who knows the way hither; and if I trust you, my sister, others I trust less to keep guard on their tongues<hr></blockquote>

I think it would be sad if we cant keep the idear of a hidden city - just to solve problems elsewhere in the story - I can feel JRRT spinning in his grave!

<img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> T

Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

[lindil]

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Re: Celebrimbor

Telchar:I think it would be sad if we cant keep the idear of a hidden
city - just to solve problems elsewhere in the story - I can feel
JRRT spinning in his grave!

lindil: true enough, but jrrt did strongly suggest in the afore mentioned narrative re: eol that the sons of Feanor knew how to get messages through.

You are right though in going to far in having as potential text, the idea of Noldor of other houses going to and fro Gondolin. Although come to think of it, Arminas when he meets Tuor at the gate of the Noldor, says [as I recall] other Noldor may know G's location , but that they would not tell Men.




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, and Gilthalion's http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him. </p>

[Telchar]

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Re: Celebrimbor

The Exact quote is:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> For since the dwelling of Turgon is hidden, so also are the ways thither. I Know them not, though I have sought them long. Yet if I knew them, I would not reveal them to you , nor to any among men<hr></blockquote>


Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

[jallanite]

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Re: Celebrimbor

The passage I quoted unequivocally indicates that Curufin and Celegorm &quot;could only get word to Gondolin by facing evil perils.&quot; These perils are presumably the dangers of Dungorthin.

So it is said and so it must be.

But I realize on re-reading this account that it does not say that they actually knew its location.

This is only speculation, but it might be that Turgon had made known to the Elf Kings that messages might be sent to him through the eagles of Crissaegrim. Whether Gondolin itself was in the vicinity of Crissaegrim or far off would not be known. This might have been known also to Celebrimbor. But maybe instead messages could be got to Gondolin through Fingolfin in some manner. But to come to either Crissaegrim or to Fingolfin might indeed involve braving the perils of Dungorthin.

I say might because one of the problems with the story of Maeglin is that it ignores entirely the possiblilty of travel between Gondolin and Himlad via Dorthonion, which one would think, in those days before the breaking of the Siege, would be much safer, though somewhat longer. But that is a different problem.

I do not believe that Tolkien, once he had placed the founding of Gondolin before the breaking of the Siege, ever in any way indicated what was thought when Turgon and all his people suddenly vanished, forsaking the siege of Angband. The account I quoted indicates that it was known that Turgon and his folk now dwelt in a hidden city. The ordinary tale of Maeglin also assumes some such knowledge, for there is no suggestion that Aredhel's sudden appearance would be an utter surprise to Fingon and Eöl openly calls his wife &quot;the White Lady of Gondolin&quot; in his bandinage with Celegorm. So the Elven kings at least knew of the existance of the Hidden City and also, it would seem, how to send messages to Turgon in need. But indeed none would have known its exact location or its approaches, taking Turgon's words to Ardhel with their open meaning.

But the little they knew would have been a closely guarded secret and few who knew it survived to tell it after the ending of the Elder Days.

</p>

[Maédhros]

From the Shibboleth of Fëanor

Elenwë her mother had no Sindarin name, for she never reached Beleriand. She perished in the crossing of the Ice; and Turgon was thereafter unappeasable in his enmity for Fëanor and his sons. He had himself come near to death in the bitter waters when he attempted to save her and his daughter Itaril, whom the breaking of treacherous ice had cast into the cruel sea. Itaril he saved; but the body of Elenwë was covered in fallen ice.
If we are going to take this into account, (and I don't see any reason as to not use it), it seems to me somewhat improbable that Turgon would have allowed that Celebrimbor being descended from Fëanor into Gondolin, knowing his enmity for Fëanor and his sons.

[Aiwendil]

That's a very good point. Of course, one could say that Celebrimbor's renunciation of his lineage satisfied Turgon.

But I still hold the opinion I expressed way back in my post of 6/6/2001: that the story wherein Celebrimbor made the Elessar in Gondolin is incompatible with his eventual Feanorian ancestry. I still vote for Enerdhil.

[Maédhros]

From the Elessar
There was in Gondolin a jewel-smith named Enerdhil, the greatest of that craft among the Noldor after the death of Fëanor. Enerdhil loved all green things that grew, and his greatest joy was to see the sunlight through the leaves of trees. And it came into his heart to make a jewel within which the clear light of the sun should be imprisoned, but the jewel should be green as leaves. And he made this thing, and even the Noldor marvelled at it. For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt. This gem Enerdhil gave to Idril the King's daughter, and she wore it upon her breast; and so it was saved from the burning of Gondolin. And before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil her son: "The Elessar I leave with thee, for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal. But to none other shalt thou deliver it."
In the end of the essay we have the following:
The Elessar was made in Gondolin by Celebrimbor, and so came to Idril and so to Eärendil. But that passed away. But the second Elessar was made also by Celebrimbor in Eregion at the request of the Lady Galadriel (whom he loved), and it was not under the One, being made before Sauron rose again.

And we have the notes of CT:
This narrative goes with "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" in certain features, and was probably written at about the same time, or a little earlier. Celebrimbor is here again a jewel-smith of Gondolin, rather than one of the Fëanorians (cf. p.247); and Galadriel is spoken of as being unwilling to forsake Middle-earth (cf. p.246) – though the text was later emended and the conception of the ban introduced, and at a later point in the narrative she speaks of the pardon of the Valar.
Enerdhil appears in no other writing; and the concluding words of the text show that Celebrimbor was to displace him as the maker of the Elessar in Gondolin
We seem to have the following problem:

1. Celebrimbor was to displace the character of Enerdhil as the maker of the Elessar, but how can we explain Celebrimbor's appearance in Gondolin, being himself the son of Curufin a Fëanorian, given the fact that we know that Turgon had a great dislike for Fëanor and his sons.
2. Enerdhil would be a good compromise except for the fact that he cannot be the greatest jewel-smith after Fëanor, it has to be his grandson Celebrimbor. Can we keep Enerdhil knowing that he was going to be displaced as a character?
3. I feel bad about using Enerdhil because he was to be discarded. Why must the creator of the Elessar be told. We could keep it vague, that the Elessar was given to Idril in Gondolin.

We could use the following:

[quote]<LQ2 There shining fountains played, and in the courts of Turgon stood images of the Trees of old, which Turgon himself wrought with elven-craft; and the Tree which he made of gold was named Glingal, and the Tree whose flowers he made of silver was named Belthil, and the light which sprang from them filled all the ways of the city. But fairer than all the wonders of Gondolin was Idril Turgon's daughter, she that was called Celebrindal the Silver-foot for the whiteness of her unshod feet, but her hair was as the gold of Laurelin ere the coming of Melkor. <EL [She wore {it} [a jewel] upon her breast] within which the clear light of the sun {should be} [was] imprisoned [and it was]{, but the jewel should be} green as leaves and even the Noldor marvelled at it. For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt. >

It would not be the first time that such a thing would happen. I mean look at the Palantiri. There is no exact quote, as fas as I know, that tells us who exactly made them, although there is the indirect reference to them in the Silmarillion.
If we say that we do not like to use the mention of how the Elessar survived the destruction of Gondolin in here, we can take that little part and move it to our version of the Fall of Gondolin.

[Finwe]

I vote for the mysterious background of the Elessar. Couldn't we just say that it was made by a great Elf-smith in Gondolin and given to Idril, Turgon's daughter, to heal all hurts?

[Gothmog, LoB]

I know this very late but I really don't see necessarily a contradiction between Celebrimbor being Curufin's sons born in Valinor and him abiding in Gondolin in the First Age.

Celebrimbor was associated with Galadriel and Celeborn in many writings (both in the writings concerning Eregion and the Elessar as well as that late concept of Celebrimbor as a Falmar elf and companion of Galadriel and Celeborn in their lonely ship.

If we go with the assumption that Celebrimbor fell in love with Galadriel (or at least felt close to her) then we don't have to go with that assumption of Christopher Tolkien that he only cut his ties with Curufin and Celegorm after the Nargothrond issues in the wake of Finrod's death but he might actually have never been all that close to his father and the other sons of Feanor.

If we doesn't swear the oath he could easily be closer to Finrod/Galadriel and Turgon than his father and uncles, and subsequently end up joining Turgon in the building of Gondolin (where he might be very welcome due to his craftsmanship).

After all, we also know that Fingon and Maedhros were always close, just as Finrod and Turgon were, as well as Aredhel and Feanor's sons. Not to mention that Finrod later allowed Celegorm and Curufin and their people to settle in Nargothrond.

And with Galadriel settling in Doriath and meeting Celeborn there (if we go with him being a Sinda) where Celebrimbor could not go as a Noldo of Feanor's house it wouldn't be very surprising if he ended up joining Turgon rather than ending up in Nargothrond.

[Findegil]

It is never too late especially in a discussion like these that never found a conclusive end.

But as nice as your speculation is, I don't see that with so less an textual evidence as we have, to have Celebrimbor in Gondolin is out of question in our version. That means it is not siad explicit or strongly suggested. If we could handle it textwise, we might leave this question open. But for that I would suggest to work out a text.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Gothmog, LoB]

Well, I guess the idea would mostly affect the Elessar story in whatever fashion it would be included. I'd propose to just add Celebrimbor being Curufin's son and Feanor's grandson when he is introduced there as a Noldo of Gondolin.

How exactly that turned out to be doesn't have to be explained. I just spun that tale to illustrate that Celebrimbor being Curufin's son is not necessarily contradictory to him living in Gondolin. Granted, it would be nicer to have some grand tale why he didn't swear the oath with his father, uncles, and grandfather, and so on, and how he and Galadriel actually are connected, but we don't need to know any of that to allow Celebrimbor to go to Gondolin.

One could consider including Tolkien's finale note on Celebrimbor's ancestry (Curufin's son, mother remained in Valinor) during the story of the founding of Gondolin. Something like, 'Among them [the Noldor and Sindar going to Gondolin] also was Celebrimbor, Curufin's son, whose mother had remained in Aman.'

The problem with Turgon having issues with Feanor's sons is only problematic for Celebrimbor's abode if we assume he took part in the Kin-slaying and the oath. For all we know he could have been with Fingolfin's host and might have crossed the ice himself. Just because Feanor's sons all jumped on his bandwagon doesn't mean Celebrimbor did the same.

[Findegil]

Gothmog, it seems I did not formulate my proposal clear enough. So here goes the next try: From my point of view (and it seems from the discussion that many of old members thought the same) we have not enough textual evidence to write in our version any clear statement that Celebrimbor was in Gondolin at any time! If we can handle it in the text of The Elessar that he might have been in Gondolin or not, that is fine with me. But that has to be tried out in the text of The Elessar. That is obviously the think someone should do, if he wants to keep Celebrimbor as the maker of both jewells.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: That task seems to be a nice exercise of the ambiguous style of editorial work we have to do so often.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Sure, I get that. The point was just that above a lot of talk years ago seemed to be basing doubt on the Feanorian heritage of Celebrimbor on the whole Elessar story.

I just wanted to point out that The Elessar is not necessarily at odds with the Feanorian story - or can be made fit the Feanorian story with very little editorial work.

Arguments like 'the text would have mentioned this or that' if Celebrimbor (or Galadriel or Gil-galad) had been there aren't very convincing to me because the focus of the stories as we know them isn't on those characters. And, after all, the stories aren't finished.

We'll not get everything together but if Celebrimbor was at Nargothrond with Celegorm and Curufin then he could not possibly also have been at Gondolin to make the Elessar.

And if you cut all that stuff about Idril bearing the stone in Gondolin then the story more or less is gone.

[Findegil]

Let us first collect some facts:
A) Celebrimbor is descendant form Feanor. This is stated in the preface of The Tale of Years form LotR. But it entered only in the second edition of 1966. According to our rules this is to be used, as long as we cannot demonstrate it to be only a ‘slip of the pen’ (seeing the scanty information we have that option seems impossible to me).

B) If we take the sources with second highest priority, these are twofold (see also C). The following note is from 1968 or later (Eldarin, hands, Fingers and Numerals, VT47):Common Eldarin had a base KWAR 'press together, squeeze, wring'. A derivative was *kwara: Quenya quar, Telerin par, Sindarin paur. This may be translated 'fist', though its chief use was in reference to the tightly closed hand as in using an implement or a craft-tool rather than to the 'fist' as used in punching. Cf. the name Celebrin-baur > Celebrimbor. This was a Sindarized form of Telerin Telperimpar (Quenya Tyelpinquar). It was a frequent name among the Teleri, who in addition to navigation and ship-building were also renowned as silversmiths. The famous Celebrimbor, heroic defender of Eregion in the Second Age war against Sauron, was a Teler, one of the three Teleri who accompanied Celeborn into exile. He was a great silver-smith, and went to Eregion attracted by the rumours of the marvellous metal found in Moria, Moria-silver, to which he gave the name mithril. In the working of this he became a rival of the Dwarves, or rather an equal, for there was great friendship between the Dwarves of Moria and Celebrimbor, and they shared their skills and craft-secrets. In the same way Tegilbor was used for one skilled in calligraphy (tegil was a Sindarized form of Quenya tekil 'pen', not known to the Sindar until the coming of the Noldor).One the first glance this contradicts the first statement, as Christopher Tolkien observe in his comment:When my father wrote this he ignored the addition to Appendix B in the Second Edition, stating that Celebrimbor 'was descended from Feanor'; no doubt he had forgotten that that theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would undoubtedly have felt bound by it.But does that make the note completely worthless? And is it really a contradiction? Only taken into account what we have listed here up to this point, I could say: ‘Feanor had only sons, but one of the sons could have had a girl-child married to a Teler and having mothered Celebrimbor.’ Then he would be a Teler and descendant form Feanor. It might even be enough for Celebrimbor to be counted about the Teleri to have his mother coming from that tribe and living most of his (early) life among the people of Aqualonde. (The question of Celeborn as a Teler to provide Galadriel with a ship for an independent journey should not be discussed here. It is an important question to be answered, but it warrants a thread of its own.)

C) The next information described as ‘of much the same time’, written on paper provided Tolkien in 1969 comes from Of Men and Dwarves (HoME XII; Part 2; Late Writings): Now in Eregion not only the Feanorian Script, which had long become a mode of writing generally used (with various adaptations) among all 'lettered' peoples in contact with the Numenorean settlements, but also the ancient 'runic' alphabet of Daeron elaborated [> used] by the Sindar was known and used. This was, no doubt, due to the influence of Celebrimbor, a Sinda who claimed descent from Daeron.This is a clear contradiction. Not only that I can’t see any believable way to have Celebrimbor a descendant of Feanor and Daeron, I can not even see how he could claim descent from Daeron at all. So the quote can teach us that Tolkien used some freeness in talking about descent: Since Daeron had no children, Celbrimbor in this Version must be a relative of a later generation, like a nephew. The only thing that I would draw from this is that Celebrimbor was probably the teacher of the Dwarves concerning runes.

D) A note by Tolkien in one of his copies of the 1966 edition of the LotR read thus (HoME XII; Part 2; Late Writings; Of Men and Dwarves; Note 7):What then was his parentage? He must have been descended from one of Feanor's sons, about whose progeny nothing has been told.
How could he be? Feanor's only descendants were his seven sons, six of whom reached Beleriand. So far nothing has been said of their wives and children. It seems probable that Celebrinbaur (silverfisted, > Celebrimbor) was son of Curufin, but though inheriting his skills he was an Elf of wholly different temper (his mother had refused to take part in the rebellion of Feanor and remained in Aman with the people of Finarphin). During their dwelling in Nargothrond as refugees he had grown to love Finrod and his wife, and was aghast at the behaviour of his father and would not go with him. He later became a great friend of Celeborn and Galadriel. A second note written in to the same copy and given in the same place reads:Maedros the eldest appears to have been unwedded, also the two youngest (twins, of whom one was by evil mischance burned with the ships); Celegorm also, since he plotted to take Luthien as his wife. But Curufin, dearest to his father and chief inheritor of his father's skills, was wedded, and had a son who came with him into exile, though his wife (unnamed) did not. Others who were wedded were Maelor, Caranthir.This notes are the basis for the editorial addition to Sil77 as Christopher Tolkien said in his comments.
The wife of Finrod needs not be discussed here. But here we have a clear storyline of Celebrimbor’s life: Born in Valinor, gone into exile with his father, and staying with him until Curufin was expelled from Nargothrond. It corosponds nicely to A) but is not compatible to B) or C).

E) Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn is the next text to look into. Christopher Tolkien does not provide us with an exact date when it was written, but he adds it to ‘the same phase (so to call it)’ of his father’s writing as the Appendix B of LotR. As the preamble is not mention in the texts before the typescript going to the publisher, this must refer to 1955-6 or slightly before. Anyhow it is earlier than A) to D). I here quote it from HoME XII; Part 2; Late Writings; Of Men and Dwarves; Note 7 were it is given more fully:Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. He was of Noldorin origin, and one of the survivors of Gondolin, where he had been one of Turgon's greatest artificers - but he had thus acquired some taint of pride and an almost 'dwarvish' obsession with crafts.A later note to the text states again that Celebrimbor should be made a descendant of Feanor. I agree with Gothmog that a Noldorin origin and being a survivor of Gondolin does not contradict A) and as I have demonstrated B). But the story given here is incompatible with C) and D), which have higher priority.

F) Written at the same time as E) was The Elessar. I will only summarize the text here in respect to Celebrimbors ancestry: It makes Celebrimbor a jewel-smith of Gondolin without giving any farther information.

According to our Principle 1 A) is a given fact.
That said C) must be considered under Principle 2.a as ‘slip of the pen’ or a failure of memorizing what was already in print.
To ignore B) we either have to declare that is incompatible with A) and rule it out on Principle 2.a or we have to call it a proposed change that is not workable for us due to lake of information (Principle 2.b). I am not convinced of either. It does also not help if we decide on ignoring Celeborn as a Teler on Principle 2.a since he has occurred under Principle 1 as a Sindar. In that situation Celebrimbor as Teler might provide us with the opportunity for an independent journey of Galadriel. Which, by the way, could also provide a nice background to Celebrimbor saying in F) to Galadriel ‘But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), …’. Otherwise it is if Galadriels independent journey is rejected. It seems to me fully improbable to a Teler join the host of Fingolfin after the kin slaying of Aqualonde or to journey on his own (without Galadriel) in his own ship to Middle-Erath.
D corresponds nicely to A but has due to our Principles lower priority than B. So D is the option if B is ruled out.
E and F contradict B which has higher priority. But the contradiction is week if we consider mixed ancestry.
If B is ruled out E and F still contradict D which has the higher priority. To use E and F instead of D would require D to fall under Principle 5: 5. Information in sources of lower level priority are to be preferred over information in sources of higher level priority where the item of information in source of higher level priority can be reasonably demonstrated to be an error, whether a "slip of the pen" or from inadequate checking of previous writing.I can’t see how D can fall under Principle 5, especially since E contains a note by Tolkien according to which he planned to change the content to correspond to D.

All that means: to have Celebrimbor in Gondolin we have to make him of mixed Telerin and Feanorian blood, (A and B combined) and have him journey to Middel-Earth together with Galadriel in a boot rescued by them in Aqualonde. How he joined Turgon is not told, but that is not improbable. But it depends in the end on the independent journey of Galadriel.
So in my point of view we must first decide what we do with Galadirel’s independent journey, and then come back to this discussion. However neither text E nor text F are completely out since we still have Principle 6 to work with them: 6. The actual words used by J.R.R. Tolkien or the editor or summarizer of his work may only be changed, including change by deletion or addition, when:
a) they are minimally changed to agree with statements elsewhere in the canon recognized as of greater validity or to are replaced with words or phrases from later or alternate restatements of the same material for reasons of consistancy or are changed to agree with alternate phrasings used by Tolkien of the same or better validity
b) they are minimally changed to avoid great awkwardness of expression such as ungrammatical constructions or too great a difference in style from the passage or section/chapter into which they are now to be inserted.
c) they are minimally added to in order to expand a sentence fragments or an incomplete phrase into a construction that fits grammatically in the new environment
d) they are deleted to avoid redundancy in new passages compiled from more than one source
e) they are, in verse passages, minimal changes that do not add new information to the tale, to maintain the proper metre and rhyme or alliterative pattern of the original verse.Respectfully
Findegil

[Gothmog, LoB]

Hm. I'd be fine with Celebrimbor's Teleri descent if they were also great silver-smiths (I think for the Falmari that would be a late addition but the Sindar are also referred to as being great in that field) a marriage between Curufin and a Teler would be conceivable.

If Celebrimbor had a Teler mother and there was no separate boat for Galadriel and Celeborn then Celebrimbor could still have been with the Noldor - he could have been with Finrod and Galadriel defending the Teleri during the battle at Alqualonde, for instance, and subsequently crossing the ice with them.

Descent means 'descent', there is no way around that. If Celebrimbor were Daeron's descendant then Daeron would have had children. Nephews aren't descendants; if Celebrimbor had been designated as Daeron's 'kinsman' he could have been his nephew or cousin or something like that, but that's not the case there.

However, one could even try to reconcile this with the other account. As far as I recall right now we don't know when exactly Daeron was born (since he no longer is Lúthien's brother). Assuming he came with Thingol to Beleriand during the long march he could have had at least one child (and a wife?) who passed across the sea with Olwe and eventually married Curufin in Aman (or the daughter of that daughter did).

But of course Celebrimbor could never have been a Sinda by birth.

The Galadriel-Celeborn issue should be discussed separately. This thing is very convoluted even in the LotR itself (Nando vs. apparent Sinda origin).

[Ivriniel]

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Re: Re: .....

I see no reason why Celebrimbor might not have been in Gondolin following the Sack of Nargothrond, unless there is some unrecalled text telling of his whereabouts elsewhere.

We know that some Elves of Nargothrond were taken captive by the sacking army and presumbably made prisoners of Morgoth. But others apparently fled to Doriath. That some sought out the Hidden City is reasonable. Surely at least Celebrimbor should not be thought of as dwelling with his father and the other Fëanorians during their final grim deeds.

The first line of The Elessar need only be changed to &quot;There was in Gondolin a jewel-smith named Celebrimbor of Nargothrond, son of Curufin son of Fëanor, the greatest of that craft among the Noldor after the death of Fëanor.&quot; Later occurrences of &quot;Enerdhil&quot; can be changed to &quot;Celebrimbor&quot; in the account of the first Elessar and the first account of the second Elessar (if it is to be preserved as a variant). For the second account of the second Elessar I suggest emendation of the passage as follows, using italics to indicate words to be removed, and words in square brackets to indicate changes of names:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And Celebrimbor said: 'Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? And Enerdhil who made it is gone.' ' They have passed over Sea,' said Galadriel, 'with almost all fair things else. But must then Middle-earth fade and perish for ever?'
****'This is its fate, I deem,' said Celebrimbor. 'But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if haply by my art your grief can be lessened.' But he did not say to Galadriel that he himself was of Gondolin long ago, and a friend of Enerdhil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enerdhil had not been then Celebrimbor would have been more renowned. Therefore he took thought and began a long and delicate labour, and so for Galadriel he made the greatest of his works (save the Three Rings only). And it is said that more subtle and clear was the green gem that he made than that of Enerdhil [Eärendil], but yet its light had less power. For whereas that of Enerdhil [Eärendil] was lit by the Sun in its youth, already many years had passed ere Celebrimbor began his work, and nowhere in Middle-earth was the light as clear as it had been, for though Morgoth had been thrust out into the Void and could not enter again, his far shadow lay upon it.<hr></blockquote></p>


This best recounts something about Celebrimbor and Galadriel that has roots with the Kinslaying and Galadriel being "...unfriends with Feanor forever...". It was an important theme that Galadriel was not seduced by Celebrimbor, during Annatar's presence in Eregion. We know as well that Cirdan was wary of Annatar, which naturally allies itself to Galadriel's rebuffing of Celebrimbor's advance. She must have sensed something of wrong in Annatar's relationship with Celebrimbor, and the innate mistrust from knowing the Curse of Mandos as an affliction upon the Sons of Feanor.

That's provided as context.

About the two stories of the Elessar we can never be really sure that those were about Tolkien and his latter emendations as he produced his mythology. However, given the context cited above I find it supports the supposition that there is very little chance, if any at all that Celebrimbor would have any presence in Gondolin.

He was the grandson of Feanor and with a parentage in the 7 sons, I doubt Turgon would pleasantly receive him, especially given Fingolfin's march through the Heclaraxe and their alienation from Feanor (for which Fingolfin went some way to reverse, however, Turgon was very xenophobic, and he threw Eol off the cliffs nigh his city for the death of Aredhel).

So, (if) two green stones ever existed with Celebrimbor's the second (and I'm not sure about this--because it's weird to imagine an Istari bearing the green stone back from Aman), which is how theories of 'the return stone' come about. [though there is a tantalising supposition it *might* have occurred, in a famous short text about Galadriel and Olorin possibly meeting nigh Amon Lanc in southern Mirkwood].


"It is not so," said Olorin. "Their eyes are not dimmed nor their hearts hardened. In token of which look upon this!"
*** And he held before her the Elessar, and she looked on it and wondered.
*** And Olorin said, "This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth. But it is not for you to possess. You shall hand it on when the time comes. For before you grow weary, and at last forsake Middle-earth one shall come who is to receive it, and his name shall be that of the stone; Elessar he shall be called."

I find it easier to accept that Celebrimbor made it as a courtship token for Galadriel in the Second Age, which is how she came to be in possession of it. Because of the alienation between Galadriel and Feanor's house, seems also a way for her to distance herself from Celebrimbor, even in death -- ridding herself of the nuisance stalker she must have found Feanor and his offspring.

[ArcusCalion]

Sorry to ressurect an old thread, but was this issue ever decided? I am personally inclined to the Enerdhil storyline with both narratives of the second Elessar presented as competing theories by loremasters. If we accept this, then there are one or two additons that need to be made to the Fall of Gondolin and the Voyage of Earendil.

[Findegil]

There is nothing to appologise for. This thread had to be reviewed one day.

No, we did not come to a conclusion in this thread so far. But we might discuss it now since we decisdes about Galadriels journey to Middle-earth. Since she did not rescue a ship but acompianed Felagund over the ice, Celebrimbor is for sure no Teler. That means that text B is ruled out based on principal 2.b.

So we have the clear statement in text A that Celebrimbor is decendant from Feanor and we have text D where we have the details that he is the son of Curufin and a wife of Curufin that stayed with the poeple of Finarfin in Valinor. And that he became a friend of Felagund during the stay of Curufin and Celegrom in Nargothrond and when they were expelled he stayed in that city.

That means Celebrimbor can never have been in Gondolin. How we can with that handle the texts E and / or F under principle 6 has to be discussed.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Well, as you have just said, the story we have elsewhere agreed upon precludes him from being in Gondolin at all. This means that E is not usable insofar as it makes him an elf of Gondolin.

As for F, the first (much longer) version meshes perfectly with the decisions we have made elsewhere, giving the making of the Elessar to a new craftsman: Enerdhil, and leaving the role of Celebrimbor until the second coming of the Elessar. Until we reach drafts for Volume II, the second Elessar question may remain unresolved, but as for the qiuestion of the existence of Celebrimbor in Gondolin, as you have said we have already decided this to be impossible. Therefore, the only story we have left is the Enerdhil story, which dovetails quite nicely with all other existing canon.

[Findegil]

I agree that we might use Enerdhil, even so he was replaced in the manuscript by JRR Tolkien.

But I think we must as well skip the story of the Elessar brought bake from Valinor by Gandalf. The story of him visiting Galadriel and giving the stone to here, does not fit the chronology: All the time when Gandalf is around Galadriel was able to use her Ring. So for what would she neede the Elessar? I think that story Comes from a time when the idea about the chronology was quite diffrent. Probabbly when all the Istari came in the Second Age.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Galin]

I have come to think (after also wondering about this version of the Elessar tale) that it's Olórin visiting Galadriel before she could use Nenya, in the first of two purposely internal variations.

[Galin]

For clarity perhaps, I mean Olórin before he was Gandalf.

Looking at the text, it reads Olórin said this or that, while the name Mithrandir is only added parenthetically to note who Olórin is -- in my opinion because from JRRT's perspective, Olórin might be an easily forgotten name, especially before the constructed Silmarillion was published, and these fancy internet days.


In one of the Glorfindel texts, it's said.

"That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this."

[ArcusCalion]

I agree with Findegil. As much as I like the story of Olorin, the logical problem is there. In addition, due to the vast difference in timing between the two versions (one in the Second and the other in the Third Ages), the narrative cannot be presented as we would like: side by side as two divergent legends. They would be separated by a great deal of text, and this would be difficult to edit without the appearance of contradiction. I have incorporated the second version into the Second Age draft at the very beginning of the chapter Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, with some minor editing.

[Galin]

I agree with Findegil. As much as I like the story of Olorin, the logical problem is there.

I don't understand, doesn't the Olórin version take away the problem Findegil noted?

Findegil wrote: The story of him visiting Galadriel and giving the stone to here, does not fit the chronology: All the time when Gandalf is around Galadriel was able to use her Ring. So for what would she neede the Elessar?

The "Elessar returned" version states that: "And on a time Olórin came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great; and they had long speech together."

But when's one a time? If the Maia arrives in the Second Age here, we have roughly 1,590 years before the Three are made, and around year 1600, Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron, leaving the Three arguably unsafe to employ until Isildur takes the One in year 3,441.

Or do these windows not work due to some chronology already decided upon?

[gondowe]

In one of the texts of the Istari is said
"Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey.... Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained,..."
This is ( for me ) a good reason to think that the Olorin of the Elessar text could be an Olorin of the pre One Ring Second Age.
But for me there is a problem, And is that Galadriel never dwelt in Greenwood the Great unless we edit it in some way saying that Lorien or Lindorinand was part of it in those days.

Anyway I prefer the version of Enerdhil.

And anyway I gave the Elessar story as a separate text, as a General note at the end of the Third TftE Volume (Fourth volume of The Thain Book), and I conserved both stories maintaining the ambiguous
"and of this two things are said, though which is true only those Wise could say who now are gone."
The only part I inserted in the narrative was the first part:

There was in Gondolin a jewel-smith named Enerdhil, ... This gem Enerdhil gave to Idril the King's daughter, and she wore it upon her breast..."

And

"And before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil ..... So it was that the Elessar passed away, when Eärendil returned no more to Middle-earth"

into the Narn-en-El text.

Greetings

[Galin]

(...) But for me there is a problem, And is that Galadriel never dwelt in Greenwood the Great unless we edit it in some way saying that Lorien or Lindorinand was part of it in those days.

Indeed both versions of the Elessar tale at least appear to have Galadriel in Greenwood, and the first edition puts Celeborn there (although granted, this detail was omitted in the second edition).

According to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, Lorinand is said to have extended into the forest on both sides of the Great River, including the region which afterwards was Dol Guldur.

Still, in general I agree there might be some problems tying together a chronology of Galadriel's movements in the Second Age. Author-published text gives little enough to go on, and in my personal opinion, Concerning Galariel and Celeborn is a dubious text with respect to a few matters.

I'm not sure what the folks engaged in this project have already decided upon regarding Galadriel's movements, and I must admit, I haven't tried to squeeze Greenwood into the picture...

... or my picture anyway!

[gondowe]

According to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, Lorinand is said to have extended into the forest on both sides of the Great River, including the region which afterwards was Dol Guldur.



Yes is true, what I mean is that it must be necesary to make clear that the wood was part of a whole. If you know what I mean.

Greetings

[Galin]

O, I C

"oh, I see" :)

[Findegil]

The project has not yet discussed Galadriels and Celeborns movements in the Second and Third Age (or even at the end of the First Age). But that is one of the important points we have to do soon as it seems.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Now as we have discussed the movements of Galadriel and Celeborn in the Second Age and earlier, we have to come to some conclusion here.

As we have rejected the Galadriel sailing by ‘her own’ ship to Middel-earth, we have to discard text B that made Celebrimbor an Teler. We might speculate that his mother was of Telerin origin, but have a statement in text D that we have taken up in our version that she returned with following of Finarfin to Aman. However that might be, both text B and D build up a first connection between Celebrimbor and the House of Finarfin.
Form this I would even speculate that he did not take ship with the Feanorians but crossed the ice with the host of Fingolfin and Finrod. But we do not have to specify this.

Text D that has the highest priority beside A to which it corresponds nicely makes a soujuorn of Celebrimbor in Gondolin impossible (he is to escape from Nargothrond, so he can not enter Gondolin at such a late time).

Now we have to deal with text E and F under principal 6, which means we can use them und must edit them to agree with the sources of higher priority.

I suppose to change text E in the following way:Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. He was of Noldorin origin, and one of the survivors of {Gondolin}, where he had been one of {Turgon's}the greatest artificers - but he had thus acquired some taint of pride and an almost 'dwarvish' obsession with crafts.Thus we would minimally change the source text and render it rather in the direction of ambiguity instad of to be specific.

Text F is more difficult. Up to know we did not include much of it. As Enerdhil is in the endnote to the text replaced by Celebrimbor, I don’t think we can us Enerdhil. The only principal that would allow that is Principal 2.b declaring that note a proposed change that is not workable for as. But even so an simple exchange of the names is not enough, I think we managed in the past much more substantial changes. The simplest solution is that as in text E we should avoid to specify where Celebrimbor made the first Elessar. And since it is clear that the place can not be Gondolin, but still the stone must be given to Idril the time for the making of the stone is before the Turgon left Vinyamar. Therefore I would put the first part it as a separate paragraph at the end of the chapter 19 Of the Noldor in Beleriand and would edit is thus:[b]TBG-07<The Elessar There was in TBG-08{Gondolin}[Beleriand] a jewel-smith named {Enerdhil}[Celebrimbor], the greatest of that craft among the Noldor after the death of Fëanor. {Enerdhil}[Celebrimbor] loved all green things that grew, and his greatest joy was to see the sunlight through the leaves of trees. And it came into his heart to make a jewel within which the clear light of the sun should be imprisoned, but the jewel should be green as leaves. And he made this thing, and even the Noldor marvelled at it. For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt. This gem {Enerdhil}[Celebrimbor] gave to Idril the TBG-08{King's }daughter of Turgon, and she wore it upon her breast TBG-09{; and so it was saved from the burning of Gondolin}.>

In addition I observed that we might have put not enough of text F into the chapter 34 Of the Voyage of Eärendil.
First I would like to use what we left out above in the scene of Idril giving the stone to her son:[quote] VE-07 In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him <TE-C and Ulmo's conches far out west {over the sea} {call}called him louder and louder>, and ever a longing for the deeps of the sea grew stronger in his heart. Wherefore he built a great ship {Eärrámë}[Eärámë], Sea-wing, <TE-D with white sails>. <TE-E One evening <TE-D Ulmo beckoned to him> and he {calls}called {Eärendel}[Eärendil] and they {go}went to the shore. There {is a skiff}[was Eärámë]. {Tur}[Tuor and Idril] {bids}bade farewell to {Eärendel}[Eärendil] and {bids}bade him thrust it off. <EL {she}Idril wore {it}the Elessar upon her breast; and so it was saved from the burning of Gondolin. {And}But before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil her son: ‘The Elessar I leave with thee, for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal. But to none other shalt thou deliver it.’> {and with Idril he}Then they set sail <TY (and some say Voronwë with them)> into the sunset and the West. ...Then later when Eärendil starts on his journey we should add another part. VE-07.6 <Ros Now Elrond was a word for the firmament, the starry dome as it appeared like a roof to Arda; and it was given by Elwing in memory of the great Hall of the Throne of Elwe in the midst of his stronghold of Menegroth that was called the Menelrond,[footnote to the text: Menelrond: 'heaven-dome'.] because by the arts and aid of Melian its high arched roof had been adorned with silver and gems set in the order and figures of the stars in the great Dome of {Valmar}[Valimar] {(21)} in Aman, whence Melian came.>
VE-07.7<The Elessar And indeed at Sirion's Haven there were many hurts to heal both of Men and Elves, and of beasts that fled thither from the horror of the North; and while Eärendil dwelt there they were healed and prospered, and all things were for a while green and fair. But when Eärendil began his great voyages upon the Sea he wore the Elessar upon his breast, for amongst all his searchings the thought was always before him: that he might perhaps find Idril again; and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast, as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower.>VE-07.8 <QS77 Yet Eärendil could not rest, and his voyages about the shores of the Hither Lands eased not his unquiet. Two purposes grew in his heart, blended as one in longing for the wide Sea: he sought to sail thereon, seeking after Tuor and Idril who returned not; and he thought to find perhaps the last shore, and bring ere he died the message of Elves and Men to the Valar in the West, that should move their hearts to pity for the sorrows of Middle-earth.And last but not least we should add a sentence about the Elessar being removed from Middle-earth: VE-11.03 And Elwing answered: 'Then shall our paths be sundered for ever. Nay, all thy perils I will take on myself also!' And she leaped into the white foam and ran towards him; but {Eärendel}[Eärendil] was sorrowful, for he deemed that they would now both die ere many days were past. And there they bade farewell to their companions and were taken from them for ever. VE-11.033<The Elessar So it was that the Elessar passed away, when Eärendil returned no more to Middle-earth.>
And {Eärendel}[Eärendil] said to Elwing: 'Await me here; for one only may bear the messages that I am charged with'; ...
At last I want to discuss the second part of [b]The Elessar[b] here. I have to say that I now lean to Galins argument: Olorin could have brought the Stone back, before he was chosen as one of the Istari. And this fits very well with the time line I created:
- Galadriel having founded Eregion made contact to Lorinand, which at this time included the Forst east of Anduin were later Dol Guldur was.
- She was their either visited by Olorin and given the Elessar of old or
- She from their visited Eregion to talk to Celebrimbor initiating his making of the second Elessar.
- When Olorin made his way back to Valinor he was just in time to enter the council of the Valar that chose the Istari.

The end note to text F can be raised as a strong argument against this. But still I feel that we should at least introduce some doubt about the story of the second Elessar. This is a text where JRR Tolkien himself used a strong ambiguity and even if it seems that he had made up his mind when he wrote the endnote, it is not so clear to me that he would have followed that note would he have re-written the full text.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Galin]

The end note to text F can be raised as a strong argument against this. But still I feel that we should at least introduce some doubt about the story of the second Elessar. This is a text where JRR Tolkien himself used a strong ambiguity and even if it seems that he had made up his mind when he wrote the endnote, it is not so clear to me that he would have followed that note would he have re-written the full text.


I won't/can't say my reading is correct, but I think the note alters that Celebrimbor was to replace Enerdhil, but not that the Olorin/Galadriel tale is out. In other words, as I read it, this relatively brief note simply does not say/need to restate that Olorin brought Galadriel the first Elessar returned.

Christopher Tolkien notes that a later revision to the text alters Galadriel being "unwilling" to forsake Middle-earth, with her ban introduced -- it's actually incorporated in the UT text in brackets, but the following comment merely says "text was later emended". And then CJRT goes on to note the intended displacement of Enerdhil, but not that the Olorin/Galadriel version was dropped...

... something that I would characterize as a pretty notable revision: altering a tale with two purposed variants, to a tale which seems to know the history -- at least in as much as the first Elessar passing away, leaving the one in Galadriel's possession as a known "second" Elessar.

Perhaps Christopher Tolkien doesn't note this as it seems obvious from the end note? It doesn't seem obvious to me though, especially if the "later" emendation concerning Galadriel's ban is later than the end note -- which, so far, I think remains an open question?

Or do we know that much, and I missed it?

[ArcusCalion]

As it stands then, it seems we have two things to resolve:

1) Who made the first Elessar, Enerdhil or Celebrimbor?
2) Is the alternate version of Olorin possible?

Number 2 is easier to answer, and I think we are actually now all agreed that it is indeed possible, and thus the two versions should be presented together, in order to preserve the ambiguity that Tolkien himself inserted. However, the issue is that of 'The Forest.' Should we change this? In both versions the idea is present that Galadriel is not dwelling in Eregion at that time, but in the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn she most certainly is dwelling there, at least at the time of the second version of the tale, as when she lived in Lorinand she was not on speaking terms with Celebrimbor, since he had just revolted against her. Therefore, should we change the references to 'the forest' and Greenwood the Great' to Eregion?

Number 1 is more difficult because of the difficulty presented by Celebrimbor in Gondolin. Fin's edit solves that problem neatly, but I wonder: are we inventing too much, to have him give the Elessar to her so much earlier? I suppose it boils down to this: which fact is more important:
1) Celebrimbor, not Enerdhil made the Elessar, or
2) It was made in Gondolin, not Nargothrond.
No matter what we decide, we are changing one of those things. Tolkien himself changed the first one, so that does tend to make me think that Fin is correct in his edit, since if 1) is true, then 2) must be true as well.

The conclusion of all this? I agree with Fin's changes to the First Age drafts, and I think we can in fact give both variants of the Second Age Elessar material, but I think we still need to decide where Galadriel is dwelling at that time.

[Findegil]

So the question is, where does Galadriel talk to Celebrimbor or Olorin? My interpretation of this ridle is, that Galadriel was in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn reported to have made contact to Lórinand during here rule in Eregion. This I think is to be enlarged to a stay there, for a time only and while she still was with her husband the ruler in Eregion.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

That might not work. She talks in both versions about her being mightier here in Middle-earth, which would be odd if she weren't even in her place of power.

[Findegil]

A ruler not at home is still a ruler. And being in Lórinand was as well a mission for gaining influence, in which she did succed. So I don't see that this contradicts here statement of being mightier in Middle-earth.
And any how, if that contradiction is their it is not created by our editing but inherent in the text itself. Thus we would not correct it at all, because it would be JRR Tolkiens own contradiction.

Respectfully
Findegi

[ArcusCalion]

I suppose I would need to see a draft to see how it works.