Ruin of Doriath - Final Part

[Findegil]

So, now for the last section:

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned below (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text

<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for garmatical reason
/ / = outline expansion

The basic text is that of The Tale of the Nauglafring.
Since full-text quoting is not appropirate any longer, I will only give the starting words of each paragraph of the basic text and all editions or delitions, but not the regular changes.

§43a (§32) RD-FP-01 <QS30 Now the Dwarf-road to Nogrod{ and Belegost} in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the River Gelion, where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], son{s} of Féanor. To the south of those lands between the river and the mountains lay the land of {Assariad}[Ossiriand], and there lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Lúthien, in that time of respite which Lúthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Côr}[Tirion], nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the [First ]Battle of {Unnumbered Tears}.> [b]RD-FP-02 And at<Sil77 {At} that time Beren and Lúthien{ yet} dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon flowed down to join with Gelion; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.> RD-FP-03 <QS30 But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Men called it oft {Cuilwarthien}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live.

§43b (§33) To the north of that region is a ford across the river {Ascar}[Gelion], near to its joining with {Duilwen}[Ascar] that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named {Sarn-athra}[ Sarn Athrad], the Ford of Stones. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached their homes}.>

§44 (§34) RD-FP-04 <Sil77 Now word went swiftly among the Elves of Ossiriand that a great host of Dwarves bearing gear of war had come down out of the mountains and passed over Gelion at the Ford of Stones. These tidings came soon to Beren and Lúthien; and in that time also a messenger came to them out of Doriath telling of what had befallen there{.}>: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs}[war]; but {Tinwelint}[Thingol] is slain.’

§45 & §46a (§35) Then did both Beren and Tinuviel weep bitter tears; nor did the full tale{ of Huan} dry their eyes. When then it was ...

§46b (§36) RD-FP-05 Now not even Beren knew the tale of those{ myriad} folk that followed his horn in the woods of{ Hisilome}[Ossiriand], and befor ever the moon was high above the hills the {host}[company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed him] great[ enough], yet were they lightly armed and the most bore only knives and bows. ‘Yet,’ said Beren, ‘speed is that which now we need the most’; and certain Elves at his bidding fared like deer before him, seeking news of the march of the Dwarves{ and Indrafangs}, but at dawn he followed at the head of the green Elves, and Tinúviel abode in the glade and wept unto herself for the death of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and {Gwendelin also she mourned as dead}[the departure of Melian].

§46c (§37) Now is to tell that the laden host of the Dwarves fared from the place of their ransacking, and Naugladur was at their head. RD-FP-06 {, and beside him Ufedhin and Bodruith; … here we take out again the rest of these and the next 3 paragraphs, until: … ; yet few have pitied him.
Now tells the tale that}And he fell in with the rangers of Beren's folk, and these gaining RD-FP-07 { from him} sure knowledge of all the host and array of Naugladur and the ways he purposed to follow, they sped back like wind among the trees unto their lord;{ but Ufedhin revealed not to them who he was, feigning to be an Elf of Artanor escaped from bondage in their host. Now therefore they entreated him well, and he was sent back to Beren that their captain might ............ his words, and albeit Beren marvelled at his [?cowardly]......’ and downward glance it seemed to him that he brought safe word,} and he set a trap for Naugladur. RD-FP-08 { No longer did he march hotly on the trail of the Dwarves, but knowing} Knowing that they would essay the passage of the river {Aros}[Gelion] at a certain time he turned aside, faring swiftly with his light-footed Elves by straighter paths that he might reach Sarn{a}[-A]throd the Stony Ford before them. Now the {Aros}[Gelion] is a fierce stream RD-FP-09 { - and is it not that very water that more near its spring runs swiftly past the aged doors of the Rodothlim's caves and the dark lairs of Glorund' -} and in those lower regions by no means can be crossed by a great host of laden men save at this ford, nor is it overeasy here. Never would Naugladur have taken that way had he knowledge of Beren - yet blinded by the spell and the dazzling gold he feared nought either within or without his host, and he was in haste to reach Nogrod and its dark caverns{, for the Dwarves list not long to abide in the bright light of day}.

§46d (§38) Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Gelion], ...

§46e (§39) Morn was it when they reached the hither bank ...

§46f (§40) Suddenly is all that place filled with the sound of elfin horns, and one {...} with a clearer blast above ...

§47 (§41) Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them, while {[?}others{]} poured still the hail of arrows upon them, and thus got the Eldar few hurts and the Dwarf-folk fell dead unceasingly. Now was that great fight of the Stony Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur, for even ... their white beards torn by the wind, filled them with mirth. [b]RD-FP-10 <Sil77 {but} some escaping from the ambush held together, and fled eastwards towards the mountains. And as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.>

§48 (§42) But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and [b]RD-FP-11 { he remembered the words of Gwendelin, for} behold, Beren came towards him and he cast aside his bow, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.

§49 (§43) Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an thou canst, O crook-legged murderer, else will I take it,’ and Naugladur bid him even the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the necklace ... and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his dwarfen mail; ... ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Men], and his folk will flee in fear before me,’ ... But the body of Naugladur was cast into the {Aros}[Ascar].

§51a (§45) Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it and beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained undying glory by his deed; and he said: ‘Never have mine eyes beheld thee O Lamp of {Faery}[Féanor] burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold and gems and the magic of the Dwarves’; and that necklace he caused to be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its power, but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand]. But RD-FP-12 <Sil77 the treasure of Doriath was drowned in the River Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, Rathlóriel, the Goldenbed.>

§51b (§46) But the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on for ever above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and so do still, for ...

§51c (§47) But in the vales of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] was there ... remembering the first days of their love and those days of travail in the wild{.}, RD-FP-13 <QS30 and it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.>{ Now is it to be said that Beren sent for Ufedhin and … here we take out again 3 paragraphs and the first part of the 4th, until: … and came never again into the tales of the dwellers of Earth; but}But upon Beren and Tinúviel fell swiftly that doom of mortality that Mandos had spoken when he sped them from his halls - and in this perhaps did the curse of Mîm have [{?} potency] in that it came more soon upon them; RD-FP-14 { nor this time did those twain fare the road together, but when yet was the child of those twain, Dior’ the Fair, a little one, did Tinuviel slowly fade, even as the Elves of later days have done throughout the world, and she vanished in the woods, and none have seen her dancing ever there again. But Beren searched all the lands of Hithlum and of Artanor ranging after her; and never has any of the Elves had more loneliness than his, or ever he too faded from life,} and Dior {his}their son was left ruler of the brown Elves and the green, and Lord of the Nauglafring. RD-FP-15 {
Mayhap what all Elves say is true, that those twain hunt now in the forest of Orome in Valinor, and Tinuviel dances on the green swards of Nessa and of Vana daughters of the Gods for ever more; yet} Yet great was the grief of the Elves when the Guilwarthon went from among them, and being leaderless and lessened of magic their numbers minished; and many fared away <editorial addition with Dior.>{to Gondolin, the rumour of whose growing power and glory ran in secret whispers among all the Elves.}

§52 (§48) RD-FP-16 <QS30 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Lúthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of Men, and of the Elves, and of the spirits divine of Valinor; yet it shielded him not from the fate of the oath of the sons of Féanor. For Dior went back to Doriath and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, {and}because she had departed to the land of the {Gods}[Valar] beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.> But still{Still} did Dior RD-FP-17 { when come to manhood} rule a numerous folk, and he loved the woods even as Beren had done; and songs name him mostly Ausir the Wealthy ...

§ 53 /moved up/

§ 54 /taken out/

§ 55 /taken out/

§56a (§49) RD-FP-18 {Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor dwelt in Gondolin; and children then had Dior the Elf,' Auredhir and Elwing, and Auredhir was most like to his forefather Beren, and all loved him, yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinuviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the elfin folk of yore. Now those were days of happiness in the vales of Hithlum, for there was peace with Melko and the Dwarves who had but one thought as they plotted against Gondolin, and Angband was full of labour; yet}Yet is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the{ seven} sons of Féanor, remembering their oath. Now {Maidros}[Maedhros], whom {Melko}[Morgoth] maimed, was their leader; and he called to his brethren Maglor{ and Dinithel,} and to {Damrod}[Amrod], and to Celegorm, to {Cranthor}[Cranthir] and to Curufin the Crafty, and he said to them ...

§56b (§50) Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him ...

§57 & §58a (§51) Then went Curufin unto his brethren, and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of elfin folk upon elfin folk, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalie for their sufferings. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon Dior, and Dior RD-FP-19 { and Auredhir were}[was] slain, <Sil77 and Nimloth his wife, and the cruel servants of Celegorm seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest. Of this Maedhros<editorial addition later> indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing, and of the fate of Eluréd and Elurín no tale tells.> {yet}Yet behold, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a {Gnome}[Noldor], took her unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, and they bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Féanor saw it not; but a host of Dior's folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on their rear, and there was a great battle, and {Maglor}[Curufin] was slain with swords,{ and Mai.... died of wounds in the wild}, and Celegorm was pierced with a hundred arrows, and {Cranthor}[Cranthir] beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Feanor masters of the field of slain, and the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to {Maidros}[Maedhros] the maimed, nor to {Curufin}[Maglor] and {Damrod}[Amrod] who had slain their lord; RD-FP-20 {and it is said that even on the day of that battle of the Elves Melko sought against Gondolin, and the fortunes of the Elves came to their uttermost waning.}<Sil77 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.>

§58b (§52) Now was naught left of the seed of Beren Ermabwed son of {Egnor} save Elwing the Lovely, and she wandered in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to her, and they departed for ever from the glades of {Hithlum}[Doriath] and got them to the south towards Sirion's deep waters, and the pleasant lands. And thus did all the fates of the fairies weave then to one strand, and that strand is the great tale of Earendel. [b]RD-FP-21 {; and to that tale's true beginning are we now come.' Then said Ailios: 'And methinks that is tale enow for this time of telling.'}

§59 /moved up/

The comments will followe soon.

Respectfully
Findegil

Edited to change format.

[Lord of Angmar]

Great job, Findegil. Aside from the obvious omissions of dated place and person names, the integration of other works into the flow of the passage was stupendous. I have only one extremely miniscule piece of input, probably not even worth noting.

The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house./Sil77/ But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Men called it oft {Cuilwarthien}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live.

I would leave out the "but" in "But Beren went no more to war..." sentence, since the word implies a conflict between the clause "But Beren went no more to war" and the added bit from the Silmarillion, and I see none. I would simply omit it or replace it with "[And]". The "but" makes sense in the context of the original passage, but your addition from the Silm calls for an omission of the word.

Just a rather mundane observation, great work all in all!

[Findegil]

Thanks for the comment Lord of A.. If my Version will be the one we will work from, I will take up your suggestion.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Changing the format of my version of the Fall of Doriath, I found out that I never did the comments and comparision for this final part that I had promised. I soon found also that this is a hard work because Maedhros version differ very much from my own. But well, if we ever will get to start with this chapter we will nontheless nedd it. So he we go:

§43a: Maedhros took not the first part of my §. He only used the Sil77 part that builded the second part in my §. But I thougt the discription of the way the Dwarves were to take fited nicely in this place.

§43b: Meadhors left that geographical information out again.

§44: Maedhros used Melian as the messenger. His § reads:§ 44 [Now {doth the tale know no more to tell of Huan, save that even while the swords still sang that great dog was speeding through the land, and his way led him as the [?wind]} [came Melian] to the land of Dor Firn-i-Guinar, {the living-dead} ['Land of the Dead that Live'], where reigned Beren and Tinúviel the daughter of Thingol. {Not in any settled abode did those twain dwell, nor had their realm boundaries well-marked – and indeed no other messenger save Huan alone to whom all ways were known had ever found Beren and obtained his aid so soon}. Indeed the tale tells that even as that host of {the Orcs} [dwarves] were burning all the land of Thingol and the Firebeards {and the Indrafangin [Broadbeams]} were wending homeward burdened utterly with spoils of gold and precious things, came {Huan} [Melian] to Beren's lodge, and it was dusk. Lo, Beren sat upon a tree root and Tinúviel danced on a green sward in the gloaming as he gazed upon her, when suddenly {stood Huan} [Melian appeared] before them, and Beren gave a cry of joy and wonder, {for it was long since he and Huan had hunted together,} {B} but Tinúviel looking upon {Huan} [her mother] saw that [s]he {bled} [wept], and there was a tale to read in h{is} [er] great eyes. And she said suddenly: “What evil then has fallen upon Doriath?” and {Huan} [Melian] said: “Fire and death {and the terror of Orcs; but} Thingol is slain.”] But as I said before, I would think if Melian was cool enough to search for Beren and Lúthien, why did she lift the girdle and laid Doriath porne to its foes?

§45 & §46: Maedhros used here part of the Sil77, his § reads:§ 45 [Then did both Beren and Tinúviel weep bitter tears; nor did the full tale of {Huan} [Melian] dry their eyes. QS77**/[Thereafter Melian {spoke to none save to Mablung only, bidding him take heed to the Silmaril, and to send word speedily to Beren and Lúthien in Ossiriand; and she vanished out of Middle-earth, and} passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lórien, whence she came, and this tale speaks of her no more.]/

§ 46 When {then} it was [all] told QS77**/[{Then} Beren arose **TN/ to his feet in white wrath, and seizing a horn that hung at his belt he blew a clear blast thereon that rang round all the neighbouring hills [and green elves] sprang as it were by magic towards him/, and summoning to him Dior his son [he] left Tol Galen [and] they went north to the River Ascar.] Now this is extremly short in comparision what the Tale of the Nauglafring did have. So i adopted much more of the Tale. Since Ufedhins role as a companion of the Dwarves is gone he can not play his part here, but I thought that Berens scouts could have gathered the necessary information without him. Also i diminished the rely big host of the Green-Elves to a small company following the Letter no.247 were Tolkien said that Beren had no Army.

§47: Maedhros used this § completly from Sil77 while I did only use the introduction of the Ents following Letter no.247

§48- §50: Here We go completly conform.

§51: Maedhros used only what I have called §51a without the addition from Sil77 and my addition from the Sil77 to §51c. Thus he did not tell the renaming of the Acar nor used he the fuller account of the return of Beren.

§52: Maedhros took that § from the Sil77.

§53: Here Maedhros used the passage from the Tale about the Hoard of Glaurung lying in the River and being protected by a flood when some one seeked for it.

§54 &§55: Here again Maedhros used Sil77 to recount the death of Beren and Lúthien. But thought it better to use the older acount were they did dy during Diors time in Ossiriand.

§56 - §59: Maedhros used here the version of the second kinslaying of the Sil77 but I found it better to use the old Tale and updat it were necessary.



When ever we come to work on this chapter, I think we should start with a discussion which version we should use as a first basis of further development. But that has to wait until we have done the rest of work at hand.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Findegil, I had been hard at work with my version of the Ruin of Doriath. What I posted in this forum was only my first draft, I have taken a lot of your suggestions into account and there are somethings with your version that I didn't use eg. (attitude of the dwarves asking for some female elves as a reward).
Since we seem to have come to a cul-de-sac in our Eärendil chapter, I was wondering if you would be interested in reviewing my version (4th draft) so that we can come to a compromise and have a base text (which would be IMO very advanced because it would have both of our inputs) to begin the work on the Ruin of Doriath chapter.
Can I send it to you be email? I do not want to post it yet here because I think it will only bring more confusion.

[Findegil]

I can clearly read and comment on your version, if you like.

Send it to: Ralf.Volles@gmx.de

It could take some time before I will start reading since I am reading Antoines last FoG Version, which is a hard task.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

I have send you my draft of my version. As I have said before, it takes into account a lot of your input especially in the beginning, but as we move towards the middle of the story our views differ a lot.
I hope that we can reach a middle ground in it so that the result can be used as the base of that discussion.

[Findegil]

Since I hav as jet only read the first page of the draft I will not comment on it in generall. But it seems clear that the finding of the middleground as a basis for the gorupworking is what we have to do.

More on this when I have read it through and made a komparision with my owne ideas expressed in my prolonged Version.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

This is the first draft of an expansion of the storyline-version. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30).

We have three groups of changes:

RD-zz: General changes given and discussed in the thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers"

RD-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit our understanding developed in the Thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. In that thread I made the mistake to mark them with FD-SL-zz. But the numbers are identical. My apologise if that change does produce a mass now. Some numbers are missing, but that is normal since some of the points of the storyline-discussion did not produce any change in the text.

RD-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference.

At the beginning we have to create a transition from The Wanderingas of Húrin (WH). Over all the basis text will show trough not to much I think. But we will use it as a leading guideline and any part that is exchanged for some other text should be shown. As before, I start with §266 of WH, which is the last of that text.

I have tried to stick to the §-numbering done by Maédhros for his first draft, so that a comparison between that draft #1, my own earlier Version and the current text will be easier. In addition I have numbered the § anew in brackets starting with §267 in continuation of WH and starting over again when we come to the purposed chapter break. If a § of the basic-text is deleted completely it is not numbered.

As it has some value as a double-check during my work I will give here in addition to the edited version a clean text version.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is repeated before each §. But some times the new § was taken as an new add and handled accordingly.
Here after is given the Version for the public forum. I have ripped it of some of the textual content in many § by inerting dots instead. These dots conceal only General changes (RD-zz), all other changes are given so that they can (hopefuly) be understood.


§43a (§27) Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the River {Gelion}[Duin Dear], where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], {sons}son of Fëanor. To the south of those lands between the river {Gelion}[Duin Dear] and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, {Gelion}[Duin Dear], Ascar, Thalos, Legolin, Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant. There lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Lúthien, in that time of respite which Lúthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Cor}[Tirion], nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the [First] Battle of {Unnumbered Tears}. RD-EX-66 <Sil77 {At}And at that time Beren and Lúthien{ yet} dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon … the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.> RD-EX-67<TN {and Auredhir was}And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his}their forefather Beren, and all loved {him}them, yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinúviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the elfin folk of yore.> {But}And Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Elves called it oft {Gwenh-i-cuina }[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live.

§43b (§28) To the north of that region is a ford across the river {Gelion}[Duin Dear], near to its joining with Ascar that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named {Sarn-athrad}[Athrad Dear], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes{ and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian}. RD-EX-68<Sil77 Now word went swiftly among the Elves of Ossiriand that a great host of Dwarves bearing gear of war had come down out of the mountains and passed over {Gelion}[Duin Dear] at the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}. These tidings came soon to Beren and Lúthien>.

§ 44 (§29) RD-EX-69<TN, Note 13 {Then}It was told that, when seeing no hope <editorial addition in Doriath> {Gwendelin and her companions}[Melain] fared with the utmost speed out of that land of sorrow, even to the {kingdom of i- Guilwarthon in Hisilome}[land of Dor Firn-i-Guinar in Ossirand], where reigned Beren and Tinuviel her daughter. Now Beren and Tinúviel lived not in any settled abode, nor had their realm boundaries well-marked, and no other messenger save {Gwendelin daughter of the Vali}[Melian the Maia] had of a surety found those twain the living-dead so soon.> RD-EX-70 <TN Indeed the tale tells that even as that host of {the Orcs} [dwarves] were burning all the land of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and{ the Nauglath and the Indrafangin} were wending homeward burdened utterly with spoils of gold and precious things, came {Huan} [Melian] to Beren's lodge, and it was dusk. Lo, Beren sat upon a tree root and Tinúviel danced on a green sward in the gloaming as he gazed upon her, when suddenly stood {Huan}[Melian] before them, and Beren gave a cry of joy and wonder, {for it was long since he and Huan had hunted together,} {But}[but] Tinúviel looking upon {Huan} [her mother] saw that {he bled} [she wept], and there was a tale to read in {his great }[her] eyes. And {she}Tinúviel said suddenly: ‘What evil then has fallen upon {Artanor}[Doriath]?’ and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and{ the terror of Orcs; but} Thingol is slain.’>

§45 & §46a (§30) <TN Then did both Beren and Tinúviel weep bitter tears; nor did the full tale{ of Huan} dry … towards him from{ every} glade and coppice, stream and fell.>

§46b (§31) <TN Now not even Beren knew the tale of those{ myriad} folk that followed his horn in the woods of{ Hisilome}[Ossiriand], and or ever the moon was high above the hills {the host}[a small company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed him] great[ enough], yet were … seeking news of the march of the Dwarves{ and Indrafangs}, but at dawn he followed at the head of the green Elves, RD-EX-71 <Sil77 and summoning to him Dior his son he left Tol Galen and they went north to the River Ascar.> {and}But Tinúviel abode in the glade and wept unto herself for the death of [Thingol]{Tinwelint, and Gwendelin also she mourned as dead}.>

§46c (§32) <TN Now is to tell that the laden host of the Dwarves fared from the place of their ransacking, and Naugladur was at their head>. RD-EX-72 <TN {Now tells the tale that}And he fell in with the rangers of Beren's folk, and these gaining{ from him} sure knowledge of all the host and array of Naugladur and the ways he purposed to follow, they sped back like wind among the trees unto their lord;{ but Ufedhin … safe word,} and he set a trap for Naugladur. RD-EX-73 { No longer did he march hotly on the trail of the Dwarves, but knowing} Knowing that they would essay the passage of the river {Aros}[Duin Dear] at a certain time he turned aside, faring swiftly with his light-footed Elves by straighter paths that he might reach {Sarnathrod}[Athrod Dear] the {Stony}[Great] Ford before them. Now the {Aros}[Duin Dear] is a fierce stream RD-EX-74 { - and is it not that very water that more near its spring runs swiftly past the aged doors of the Rodothlim's caves and the dark lairs of Glorund' -} and in those lower regions … in haste to reach Nogrod and its dark caverns{, for the Dwarves list not long to abide in the bright light of day}.>

§46d (§33) <TN Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Duin Dear], and … halls; and behind these was Naugladur{, and he bestrode Tinwelint's horse, … laden with spoil}. But behind {these}him came again a mass of armed men but little laden; and in this array they sought to cross {Sarnathrod}[Athrod Dear] on their day of doom.>

§46e (§34) <TN Morn was it … Now did Naugladur{ slip from his burdened horse and }prepare to get him over, for the armed … resting awhile.>

§46f (§35) <TN Suddenly {is}was all that place filled with the sound of elfin horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above the rest, and {it is}that was the horn of Beren, the huntsman of the woods. Then {is}was the air thick with the … into the currents of the {Aros}[Duin Dear], staining its clear waters with their dark blood.>

§47 (§36) <TN Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them> RD-EX-75 <Sil77 eastwards towards the mountains. And as {they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed}<editorial change the Dwarves entered the woods on the further bank> there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> RD-EX-76 <TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony}[Great] Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; {and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain,} and well nigh all their host{.}[ were slain,] RD-EX-77 <TN for even though Naugladur and his captains led their bands stoutly never might they grip their foe, and death fell like rain upon their ranks until the most part broke and fled>.

§48 (§37) <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and he remembered the words of {Gwendelin}[Melian], for behold, Beren came towards him and he RD-EX-78 {cast aside his bow}<editorial edition based on UT gave the Bow of Bregor, that he had used, to Dior>, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.>

§49 (§38) <TN Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an … all should stay their hands.>

§50 (§39) <TN Now little doth the tale tell of wounds and blows of that affray, save that Beren got many hurts therein, and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his {dwarfen}[dwarven] mail; and it is said that … ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Men], and his folk will … But the body of Naugladur was cast into the {Aros}[Duin Dear].>

§51a (§40) <TN Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it - and beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained undying glory by his deed; and he said: ‘Never have mine eyes beheld thee O Lamp of {Faery}[Fëanor] burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold and gems and the magic of the Dwarves’; and that necklace he caused to be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its power, but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand].> RD-SL-27 <Sil77And when all was finished the treasure of Doriath was drowned in the River Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, Rathlóriel, the Goldenbed.>

§51b (§41) RD-EX-79 <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on for ever above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and so do still, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now is the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none seek the treasure that {it}[Ascar] guards [near by] nor dare ever to cross the{ magic} stream[of Duin Dear] at that enchanted place.

§51c (§42) But Beren took the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril{;}. RD-EX-80 <TN {But}And in the vales of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] was there gladness at the homecoming of the Elves, and great was the joy of Tinuviel to see her lord once more returning amidst his {companies}[company], but little did it ease her grief … those days of travail in the wild>, and it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor{, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light}.

§ 51d (§43) RD-EX-81 <TN Now hearing {the cries of Ufedhin Gwendelin}[of Berens return Melain] looked in wonder{ after him, and stayed her tender words; and memory came back into her eyes so that}[, and] she cried as in amaze beholding the Necklace of the Dwarves that hung about the white throat of Tinúviel. Then wrathfully she asked of Beren what it might portend, and wherefore he suffered the accursed thing to touch Tinúviel; {and}[then] told Beren all that tale {such as Huan had told him, in deed or guess, and} of the pursuit and fighting at the ford{ he told also},saying at the end: ‘Nor indeed do I see who, now that Lord {Tinwelint}[Thingol] is fared to Valinor, should so fittingly wear that jewel of the {Gods}[Valar] as Tinúviel.’ But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's halls, ‘and yet another … as it burnt the {[? }foul{]} flesh of {Karkaras}[Carcharoth]. ‘Nor,’ said he, ‘have I seen … that is the work of baleful smiths indeed.’>

§ 51e (§44) <TN Then said Tinúviel that … would not suffer it to be flung away, but warded it in his [treasury].>

§51f (§45) Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.}<movedfrom above, and{ that} for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the {Gods}[Valar], and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
RD-SL-30{And in time the brief hour of the loveliness of the land of Rathloriel departed. For Lúthien faded as Mandos had spoken, even as the Elves of later days faded, when Men waxed strong and usurped the goodness of the earth; and she vanished from the world; and Beren died, and none know where their meeting shall be again. Yet it hath been sung that Lúthien alone of Elves hath been numbered among our race, and goeth whither we go to a fate beyond the world.}

§ 52a (§46) RD-SL-29 <Sil77 Now Dior Thingol's heir bade farewell to Beren and Lúthien, and departing … set himself to raise anew the glory of the kingdom of Doriath.>

§ 52b (§47) RD-SL-30 <Sil77 There came a night of autumn, and … go the race of Men to a fate beyond the world.>

§52c (§48) RD-EX-82 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of … sons of Fëanor. For Dior {went back to } RD-SL-31 <TY with the power of the Silmaril {restores}[restored]> Doriath and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, and she departed to the land of the {Gods}[Valar] beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.

§56a (§49) But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. RD-EX-83 <TN Yet{yet} is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the{ seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath. Now {Maidros}[Maedhros], whom {Melko}[Morgoth] maimed, was their leader; and he called to his brethren Maglor{ and Dinithel}, and to {Damrod}[Amrod, and to Celegorm, to {Cranthor}[Caranthir] and to Curufin the Crafty{,}.> For while Lúthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even {Maidros}[Celegorm] dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the {seven}[brothers] gathered again from wandering{; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain and his young sons Eldun and Elrun}. [b]RD-EX-84 <TN And Celegrom {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the{ southern} vales[ of Doriath], ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes - but do you not forget,’ said he, ‘that we swore to have no peace with {Melko}[Morgoth] nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Fëanor from us. For what,’ said {Maidros}[Celegrom], ‘do we suffer exile and wandering and rule over a scant and forgotten folk, if others gather to their hoard the heirlooms that are ours?’>

§56b (§50) RD-SL-32 But <TY {Maidros}[Maedhros] restrains his brethren.> RD-EX-85 <TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him … Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, {nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko} – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,<editorial addition[/u] where this had come from,>’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’>RD-EX-86 <TY [Thus he returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./>

§57 & §58a (§51) RD-EX-87 <TN Then went Curufin unto his brethren, RD-SL-32.5 <TY and {Celegorn}[Celegorm] {inflames}inflamed the brethren,> and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk RD-EX-88{, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalie for their sufferings}. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon RD-SL-33{Dior}><TY the east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}was slain, RD-EX-89 <TY {There}there fell also {Celegorn}[Celegorm] (by Dior's hand) {and Curufin and Cranthir.}>,RD-SL-34 Q30 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again. RD-EX-90 <TN {yet}Yet behold, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth{ a Gnome}<Sil77 faithful servant>, took {her }<TY {The}the Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth]{ escaped} with Elwing> unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and they came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but> RD-EX-91 <TY the{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegrom] seized Dior's sons ({Elrun and Eldun}[Eluréd and Elurín]) and {leave}left them to starve in the forest.> RD-EX-92 <Sil77 Of this Maedhros later indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing.>RD-EX-93 <TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].)>

§58b (§52) RD-SL-35 <TN A {a} host of Dior's folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on {their}the rear of the host of the sons of Fëanor, and there was a great battle, {and Maglor was slain with swords, and Mai.... died of wounds in the wild,} and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and {Cranthor}[Caranthir] beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Fëanor masters of the field of slain, and the {brown}[grey] Elves{ and the green} were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to {Maidros}[Maedhros] the maimed, nor to {Curufin}[Maglor] and {Damrod}[Amrod] who had slain their lord>.

§58c (§53) RD-EX-94 <TN Now was naught left of the seed of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion] son of {Egnor}[Barahir] save Elwing the Lovely, and she wandered in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to her>. [b]RD-SL-36 Q30 {Yet the sons of Feanor gained not the Silmaril; for faithful servants fled before them and took with them Elwing the daughter of Dior, and she escaped, and they bore with them the Nauglamír, and came}And in time <TY hearing the rumour /that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens/>RD-EX-95 <TN they departed for ever from the glades of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] and got them to the south towards Sirion's deep waters, and the pleasant lands. And thus did all the fates of the fairies weave then to one strand, and that strand is the great tale of {Earendel}[Eärendil].


I don't think that I will open the discussion on these version. I hope someone else we do so.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

There are several instances in which you used Duin Dear instead of Duin Daer.

§46f (§35) <TN Suddenly {is}was all that place filled with the sound of {elfin}[elvish] horns, and one
As noted before.

§50 (§39) <TN Now little doth the tale tell of wounds and blows of that affray, save that Beren got many hurts therein, and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his {dwarfen}[dwarven] mail; and it is said that three hours they fought and Beren's arms grew weary, but not those of Naugladur accustomed to wield his mighty hammer at the forge, and it is more than like that otherwise would the issue have been but for the curse of Mîm; for marking how Beren grew faint Naugladur pressed him ever more nearly, and the arrogance that was of that grievous spell came into his heart, and he thought: ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Men],
It should be Man and not men me thinks.

§ 51d (§43) RD-EX-81 <TN Now hearing {the cries of Ufedhin Gwendelin}[of Beren’s return Melain]
You missed the apostrophe.

But Beren {laughed}[answered], saying that the glory of the Silmaril and its holiness might overcome all such evils,
To me, it would seem disrespectful if Beren laughed at Melian. I would rather say answered.

§ 51e (§44) <TN Then said Tinúviel that she desired not things of worth or precious stones but the {elfin}[elvish]
ibid.

§56b (§50) RD-SL-32 But <TY Maedhros restrain{s}[ed] his brethren.> RD-EX-85 <TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the Nauglamír, fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the Nauglamír unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, {nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko} – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,<editorial addition[/u] where this had come from,>’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’>RD-EX-86 <TY [b]{[Thus he returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./}>
I would change the tense of the verb to restrain to the past tense. I would deleted the bold part because if Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, I would assume that there is no way that Dior would give the sons of Fëanor the silmaril.

§57 & §58a (§51) RD-EX-87 <TN Then went Curufin unto his brethren, RD-SL-32.5 <TY and Celegorm {inflames}inflamed the brethren,> and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk RD-EX-88{, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalie for their sufferings}. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon RD-SL-33{Dior}><TY the east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}was slain, RD-EX-89 <TY {There}there fell also Celegorm (by Dior's hand) {and Curufin and Cranthir.}>,RD-SL-34 Q30 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again. RD-EX-90 <TN {yet}Yet behold {, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth{ a Gnome}<Sil77 faithful servant>, took {her }<TY {The}}the Lady Nimloth escaped with Elwing> {unwilling} in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and they came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the Nauglamír, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not;
I would remove the bold parts because are the names Evranin and Gereth valid in actual Sindarin? Also if the mother of Elwing took her and they were under attack, one would assume that she would go willingly with her mother.

§58c (§53) RD-EX-94 <TN Now was naught left of the seed of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion] son of {Egnor} save Elwing the Lovely, and she [b][along with Nimloth] wandered in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to her>.
I added the part in bold because of the previous change that Elwing fled with her mother.

And thus did all the fates of the {fairies}[elves] weave then to one strand, and that strand is the great tale of Eärendil.
fairies should be elves me thinks.

[Findegil]

Dear -> Daer: Oops, seemed an systymatical typo of mine. Corrected for the next version.

§51d laughed -> answered: But it was equally disrespectfull for Beren to laughed at his mother in law in TN than it is in our version. So why should we change it? Okay, Melain is now a bit more of a respected figure through out, but that does not change the disrespectfullnis of Beren in this scene so much for me. I see it more like a mark of the cruse of the Nauglamír (and the Silamril) that he begins to value his own thoughts above that of Melian.

§56b If "Dior waxed wroth" does not fit together with <TY [Thus he returned] {Dior returns} no answer /to their claim./> we have to remove the fisrt phrase since the second is later. The § was a kind of an experiment, if "Dior waxed wroth" and the answer "if you like to have a Silmaril go to Angband" would fit with the "no answer of TY. But it seemed it will not fit and thus we should go back to:
§56b (§50) RD-SL-32 But <TY {Maidros}[Maedhros] {restrains}restrained his brethren.> RD-EX-85 <TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior{ waxed wroth,} bidding him be gone, {nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’}>RD-EX-86 <TY [returned] {Dior returns} no answer /to their claim./>


§57 & §58a ... RD-EX-90 <TN {yet}Yet behold, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth{ a Gnome}<Q30 faithful servant>, took {her }<TY {The}the Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth]{ escaped} with Elwing> unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and they came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but> RD-EX-91 <TY the{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegrom] seized Dior's sons ({Elrun and Eldun}[Eluréd and Elurín]) and {leave}left them to starve in the forest.> ...Is the normal way to read the passage not that all the object of the action was unwilling? I at least would think that Nimloth were really unwilling to leave her young twin-sons behind.
If we want scip the names I would suggest to takeQ30 (sorry, I made a mistake with the source info there) and name them only faithful servants:§57 & §58a ... RD-EX-90 <TN {yet}Yet behold, {Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a Gnome<Q30 faithful servants>, took {her }<TY {The}the Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth]{ escaped} with Elwing> unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and they came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but> RD-EX-91 <TY the{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegrom] seized Dior's sons ({Elrun and Eldun}[Eluréd and Elurín]) and {leave}left them to starve in the forest.> ...

§58c TY provides the information that Nimloth was the driving force in all the later action (which is to be expected since Elwing was a child of only 4). I missed that point an thought that we were not told that Nimloth went to the havens at all. But now I think we have to change it, and I like your suggestion, but would change the order to:§58c (§53) RD-EX-94 <TN Now was naught left of the seed of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion] son of {Egnor} save Elwing the Lovely, and she wandered <[b]editorial addition along with Nimloth> in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to {her}them.> ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

§51d laughed -> answered: But it was equally disrespectfull for Beren to laughed at his mother in law in TN than it is in our version. So why should we change it? Okay, Melain is now a bit more of a respected figure through out, but that does not change the disrespectfullness of Beren in this scene so much for me. I see it more like a mark of the curse of the Nauglamír (and the Silamril) that he begins to value his own thoughts above that of Melian.

It can still be disrespectful but not in a way to diminish the character of Beren. I just don't think that the character of Beren would laugh at Melian, the curse of the gold and the Silmaril would in fact remain because of the fact that he chose to keep it against her advice.

§56b If "Dior waxed wroth" does not fit together with <TY [Thus he returned] {Dior returns} no answer /to their claim./> we have to remove the fisrt phrase since the second is later. The § was a kind of an experiment, if "Dior waxed wroth" and the answer "if you like to have a Silmaril go to Angband" would fit with the "no answer of TY. But it seemed it will not fit and thus we should go back to:
I'm not so sure about that. I think that we can have it both ways:
§56b (§50) RD-SL-32 But <TY Maedhros restrain{s}[ed] his brethren.> RD-EX-85 <TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the Nauglamír, fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the Nauglamír unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, nor dare to claim what his sire Beren {the Onehanded} won {with his hand} from {the [?jaws] of Melko}[Morgoth] {– ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,<editorial addition[/u] where this had come from,>’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’}>RD-EX-86 <TY [Thus Curufin] [b]{Dior} returned {no /clear/}[with that] answer /to their claim./}>

I'm ok with the other two alterations.

[Findegil]

§58b Now you did missunderstand me. If "Dior waxed worth" does verbid us to interpret the rest of the conversion in a way that Dior could let the claim of the Feanorians unanswered, then we cannot use it as an expansion of our basic text. That is a fact, since the bsic text states, based on TY, that Dior returned no answer.

§51d Why does it diminishe the charachter of Beren when he laughs in such a situation?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Following the fact that Melian did leave Menegroth before the attack of the Dwarves she did no longer talk to Naugladur and thus he can clearly not remeber any words of her. Thus we have to change §48 to:§48 (§325) <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and {he remembered the words of Gwendelin, for} behold, Beren came towards him and he RD-EX-78 {cast aside his bow}<editorial edition based on UT gave the Bow of Bregor, that he had used, to Dior>, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.>

In addtion I found this in TY:503 … Now Curufin and Celegorm hearing of the sack of Menegroth ambushed the Dwarves at the fords of Ascar and defeated them; but the Dwarves cast the gold into the river, which was after named Rathloriel. … With the commentary on that part by Christopher Tolkien:The ford at which the Dwarves were ambushed, not now itself named, is still over Ascar, not Gelion (see p. 347). The statement that the Dwarves 'cast the gold into the river' is at variance with the story told in the Sketch and the Quenta (where this was done by Beren and the Green-elves), and was perhaps a conscious return to the tale of The Nauglafring (II.237), in which the gold fell into the river with the bodies of the Dwarves who bore it, or else was cast into the water by Dwarves seeking to reach the banks. If we accept that view, I think we should change our decision about RD-SL-27. If Tolkien wanted the picture of the hord casted into the river by the dying and flying dwarves we have to change the Ford at which the battle was lunched led over Ascar. Since the second Silmarillion map should not be dismissed so easiely, I study that map again: The dots that mark the Dwarf-Road end slightly before ths Mountians are reached. The Road cross the River Gelion at Sarn Athrad (both still so named in that map) a good deal north of the confluence of Gelion and Ascar. The Road runs than parallel to the Ascar until the dots end. At that point the Ascar bend slightly but stadiely to the north. If the road would have run in a straight line from the last dot to the place of Nogord it would have crossed the Ascar just south of its source. But we are talking about a mountain pass, thus it is more than unlikly that the road did run in straight line.
Conclusion: The map does not over an clear explaination for the problem at hand, but it does provide use with some freedom of interpretation, since not all features are drawn.
That Ascar was not crossable near to its confluence is witnessed by the tale of the People of Haleth and there stand against the orcs. They withdrawn into the angle between Gelion and Ascar and it is clear that both rivers were an effective protection.
Considering the passage from TY we need a ford over Ascar. If the mountian pass did follow the river (as is likely for such roads) it is possible to supposed that it did so on the south bank. If the road did bend south at the point were the dots end, it would have crossed the river a bit further from its source.
After that long winding discussion I will know give an alternative text for some § that is soppossed to follow TY by placing the fight at the Ford over Ascar. Since the names discussed earlier were clearly meant to be the ford over Gelion [Duin Daer] I have not taken them for the Ford of Ascar. Thus the Ford of the ambush is unnamed.§43b (§316) To the north of that region is a ford across the river {Gelion}[Duin Daer], near to its joining with Ascar that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named {Sarn-athrad}[Athrad Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}. <editorial addition And further on that road forded the River Ascar.> {This ford}These fords the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes {and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian}. RD-EX-68<Sil77 Now word went swiftly among the Elves of Ossiriand that a great host of Dwarves bearing gear of war had come down out of the mountains and passed over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] at the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}. These tidings came soon to Beren and Lúthien>.

…

§46b (§319) <TN Now not even Beren knew the tale of those{ myriad} folk that followed his horn in the woods of{ Hisilome}[Ossiriand], and or ever the moon was high above the hills {the host}[a small company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed him] great[ enough], yet were they lightly armed and the most bore only knives and bows. ‘Yet,’ said Beren, ‘speed is that which now we need the most’; and certain Elves at his bidding fared like deer before him, seeking news of the march of the Dwarves{ and Indrafangs}, but at dawn he followed at the head of the green Elves, RD-EX-71 <Sil77 and summoning to him Dior his son he left Tol Galen and they went north to the River Ascar.> {and}But Tinúviel abode in the glade and wept unto herself for the death of [Thingol]{Tinwelint, and Gwendelin also she mourned as dead}.>

§46c (§320) <TN Now is to tell that the laden host of the Dwarves fared from the place of their ransacking, and Naugladur was at their head>. RD-EX-72 <TN {Now tells the tale that}And he fell in with the rangers of Beren's folk, and these gaining{ from him} sure knowledge of all the host and array of Naugladur and the ways he purposed to follow, they sped back like wind among the trees unto their lord;{ but Ufedhin revealed not to them who he was, feigning to be an Elf of Artanor escaped from bondage in their host. Now therefore they entreated him well, and he was sent back to Beren that their captain might ............ his words, and albeit Beren marvelled at his [?cowardly]......’ and downward glance it seemed to him that he brought safe word,} and he set a trap for Naugladur. RD-EX-73 { No longer did he march hotly on the trail of the Dwarves, but knowing}Knowing that they would essay the passage of the river {Aros}[Ascar] at a certain time he turned aside, faring swiftly with his light-footed Elves by straighter paths that he might reach {Sarnathrod} the{ Stony} Ford before them. Now the {Aros}[Ascar] is a fierce stream RD-EX-74 { - and is it not that very water that more near its spring runs swiftly past the aged doors of the Rodothlim's caves and the dark lairs of Glorund' -} and in those lower regions by no means can be crossed by a great host of laden men save at this ford, nor is it overeasy here. Never would Naugladur have taken that way had he knowledge of Beren - yet blinded by the spell and the dazzling gold he feared nought either within or without his host, and he was in haste to reach Nogrod and its dark caverns{, for the Dwarves list not long to abide in the bright light of day}.>

§46d (§321) <TN Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Ascar], and their array was thus: first a number of unladen Dwarves most fully armed, and amidmost the great company of those that bore the treasury of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and many a fair thing beside that they had haled from {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls; and behind these was Naugladur{, and he bestrode Tinwelint's horse, and a strange figure did he seem, for the legs of the Dwarves are short and crooked, but two Dwarves led that horse for it went not willingly and it was laden with spoil}. But behind {these}him came again a mass of armed men but little laden; and in this array they sought to cross {Sarnathrod}[the Ford of the Ascar] on their day of doom.>

§46e (§322) <TN Morn was it when they reached the hither bank and high noon saw them yet passing in long-strung lines and wading slowly the shallow places of the swift-running stream. Here doth it widen out and fare down narrow channels filled with boulders atween long spits of shingle and stones less great. Now did Naugladur{ slip from his burdened horse and }prepare to get him over, for the armed host of the vanguard had climbed already the further bank, and it was great and sheer and thick with trees, and the bearers of the gold were some already stepped thereon and some amidmost of the stream, but the armed men of the rear were resting awhile.>

§46f (§323) <TN Suddenly {is}was all that place filled with the sound of {elfin}[elvish] horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above the rest, and {it is}that was the horn of Beren, the huntsman of the woods. Then {is}was the air thick with the slender arrows of the Eldar that err not neither doth the wind bear them aside, and lo, from every tree and boulder do the brown Elves and the green spring suddenly and loose unceasingly from full quivers. Then was there a panic and a noise in the host of Naugladur, and those that waded in the ford cast their golden burdens in the waters and sought affrighted to either bank, but many were stricken with those pitiless darts and fell with their gold into the currents of the {Aros}[Ascar], staining its clear waters with their dark blood.>

§47 (§324) <TN Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them> RD-EX-75 <Sil77 eastwards towards the mountains. And as {they}[the Dwarves] climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed <editorial change and entered the woods on the further bank> there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> RD-EX-76 <TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony }Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>, In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were {in the midst of their passage,} laden with their plunder; and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host{.}, RD-EX-77 <TN for even though Naugladur and his captains led their bands stoutly never might they grip their foe, and death fell like rain upon their ranks until the most part broke and fled>.

§48 (§325) <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and {he remembered the words of {Gwendelin}[Melian], for} behold, Beren came towards him and he RD-EX-78 {cast aside his bow}<editorial addition based on UT gave the Bow of Bregor, that he had used, to Dior>, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature among the {Eldar}[Edain], albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.>

…

§50 (§327) <TN Now little doth the tale tell of wounds and blows of that affray, save that Beren got many hurts therein, and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his {dwarfen}[dwarven] mail; and it is said that three hours they fought and Beren's arms grew weary, but not those of Naugladur accustomed to wield his mighty hammer at the forge, and it is more than like that otherwise would the issue have been but for the curse of Mîm; for marking how Beren grew faint Naugladur pressed him ever more nearly, and the arrogance that was of that grievous spell came into his heart, and he thought: ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Man], and his folk will flee in fear before me,’ and grasping his sword he dealt a mighty blow and cried: ‘Take here thy bane, O stripling of the woods,’ and in that moment his foot found a jagged stone and he stumbled forward, but Beren slipped aside from that blow and catching at his beard his hand found the carcanet of gold, and therewith he swung Naugladur suddenly off his feet upon his face: and Naugladur's sword was shaken from his grasp, but Beren seized it and slew him therewith, for he said: ‘I will not, sully my bright blade with thy dark blood, since there is no need.’ But the body of Naugladur was cast into the {Aros}[Ascar].>

§51a (§328) <TN Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it - and beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained undying glory by his deed; and he said: ‘Never have mine eyes beheld thee O Lamp of {Faery}[Fëanor] burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold and gems and the magic of the Dwarves’; and that necklace he caused to be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its power, but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand].>

§51b (§329) RD-EX-79 <TN But the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on for ever above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and so do still, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now is the gloom and dread of that {Stony }Ford that none seek the treasure that it guards nor dare ever to cross the{ magic} stream at that enchanted place.

…

§51f (§333) Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure {they had}[was] drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and [they] named it anew Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.}<movedfrom above, and{ that} for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the {Gods}[Valar], and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
RD-SL-30{And in time the brief hour of the loveliness of the land of Rathloriel departed. For Lúthien faded as Mandos had spoken, even as the Elves of later days faded, when Men waxed strong and usurped the goodness of the earth; and she vanished from the world; and Beren died, and none know where their meeting shall be again. Yet it hath been sung that Lúthien alone of Elves hath been numbered among our race, and goeth whither we go to a fate beyond the world.}

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I'm not sure when I'll get time to finish looking over this section, so I'll post the comments on what I've reviewed so far.

§43a (§27)
woods about the River {Gelion}[Duin Dear]

Dear > Daer here and throughout.

I wonder if we should replace "River Gelion" with "Duin Daer" rather than with "River Duin Daer" - "Duin" means "River", and seems to be redundant.

RD-EX-66
<Sil77 {At}And at that time Beren and Lúthien{ yet} dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon flowed down to join with {Gelion}[Duin Dear]; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.>

As usual, I'm a bit hesitant about using the '77. Is there not a primary text that can serve the same purpose? I will look.

In any case, I don't understand the deletion of "yet".

RD-EX-67
Elfin > Elven

§43b (§28)
To the north of that region is a ford across the river {Gelion}[Duin Dear]

I think "is" should become "was" in keeping with our general removal of the historical present.

RD-EX-68
I don't see why we need to use this from the '77 if we immediately afterward have Melian bring them the news.

RD-EX-70
The changes here are fairly liberal but I think they work. One problem is:

and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and {the terror of Orcs; but} Thingol is slain.’>

This is awkward. I would make it either:

and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs} [the Dwarves]; but Thingol is slain.’>

or

and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death {and the terror of Orcs}; but Thingol is slain.’>


§45 & §46a (§30)
<TN Then did both Beren and Tinúviel weep bitter tears; nor did the full tale {of Huan} dry their eyes.

A very minor point - why not change "Huan" to "Melian" here and thus stay closer to the text?

§46b (§31)
<TN Now not even Beren knew the tale of those{ myriad} folk that followed his horn in the woods of{ Hisilome}[Ossiriand], and or ever the moon was high above the hills {the host}[a small company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed him] great[ enough], yet were they lightly armed and the most bore only knives and bows.

This leaves an awkward sentence. I would make it:

<TN Now not even Beren knew the tale of those {myriad} folk that followed his horn in the woods of{ Hisilome}[Ossiriand], and or ever the moon was high above the hills the {host}[small company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed] great [enough to him], yet were they lightly armed and the most bore only knives and bows.

RD-EX-72
§46c (§32) <TN Now is to tell that the laden host of the Dwarves fared from the place of their ransacking, and Naugladur was at their head>. RD-EX-72 <TN {Now tells the tale that}And he fell in with the rangers of Beren's folk, and these gaining{ from him} sure knowledge of all the host and array of Naugladur and the ways he purposed to follow, they sped back like wind among the trees unto their lord

This doesn't make sense to me. Who fell in with the rangers of Beren's folk? As the text stands, the 'he' seems to refer to Naugladur, which is absurd. In fact, with the removal of Ufedhin I think we must also lose the idea that anyone from Naugladur's group joined with Beren's folk and gave them information. Rather, the rangers simply espied the Dwarves or gained knowledge of them through woodcraft. I would say:

§46c (§32) <TN Now is to tell that the laden host of the Dwarves fared from the place of their ransacking, and Naugladur was at their head>. RD-EX-72 <TN {Now tells the tale that he fell in with} And the rangers of Beren's folk{, and these gaining from him} [gained] {sure} knowledge of all the host and array of Naugladur and the ways he purposed to follow, [and] they sped back like wind among the trees unto their lord

It's perhaps a bit risky since I've altered the grammatical function of "the rangers of Beren's folk", but I think it's okay.

RD-EX-73
{ No longer did he march hotly on the trail of the Dwarves, but knowing} Knowing that they would essay the passage of the river {Aros}[Duin Dear] at a certain time he turned aside,

I would delete "at a certain time" since he no longer gets specific indormation from Ufedhin.

RD-EX-74
I would delete the historical present here as well.

§46f (§35)
<TN Suddenly {is} was all that place filled with the sound of elfin horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above the rest, and {it is}[that was] the horn of Beren

A minor point, but I would make it:

<TN Suddenly {is}was all that place filled with the sound of elfin horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above the rest, and it {is} [was] the horn of Beren

[Findegil]

Dear > Daer: That systematic typo again. I will try better for the next version.

River Gelion -> Duin Daer: Agreed. I did not hink about it and did just replace Gelion by Duin Daer, but it is beter to skip River in fornt of Duin.

RD-EX-66:
What Q30 has to ofer we have already used. The problem is that the abode of Beren and Lúthien is only given in "The Problem of Ros". And I think Christopher Tolkien based this passage on the info given there. The alternativ for this passage is simply not to give the info it provides (as fare as I can see).

Deletion of "yet": I understood it as a kind of repeating, since we had already mention that Beren and Lúthien were "in that time of respite which Lúthien had won" in the sentence before. But that is a weak argument and if you think the yet should not be deleted we will take in back in.

RD-EX-68: Okay, I can see your point. As it is we have no other source for this bit. So it must go.

RD-EX-70: In view of TN, Note 13 I thought that it might even have be the orginal reading of the text.
I agree that the sentence would read better with your suggestions. But the dwarves are normaly no terror. (If we would have used the info of the Dwarve-host crossing Athrad Daer, I would have accepted "the terror of the dwarves". ;)) Could we take: ... and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs}[war]; but Thingol is slain.’

RD-EX-72:
Okay, it seems my interpretation of the edited sentence was to much forced if it come across to you in such a way. Your emendations lock good. we should take them.

All changes not mention I agree with and willtake them up for the next version if nobody speaks up against them.

Some of the changes will come up again in the alternative § given in posts in this thread, but if we will take these alternatives, I will try to work the changes into them.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

RD-EX-66:
What Q30 has to ofer we have already used. The problem is that the abode of Beren and Lúthien is only given in "The Problem of Ros". And I think Christopher Tolkien based this passage on the info given there. The alternativ for this passage is simply not to give the info it provides (as fare as I can see).

I think that it would be a shame not to use that passage, but when I looked in the Problem of Ros, I was unable to find it. Can you point it to me?

... and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs}[war]; but Thingol is slain.’
I think that it is too great a change. I would rather like:
‘Fire and death {and the terror of Orcs;} but Thingol is slain.’

That Ascar was not crossable near to its confluence is witnessed by the tale of the People of Haleth and there stand against the orcs. They withdrawn into the angle between Gelion and Ascar and it is clear that both rivers were an effective protection.
Considering the passage from TY we need a ford over Ascar. If the mountian pass did follow the river (as is likely for such roads) it is possible to supposed that it did so on the south bank. If the road did bend south at the point were the dots end, it would have crossed the river a bit further from its source.
After that long winding discussion I will know give an alternative text for some § that is soppossed to follow TY by placing the fight at the Ford over Ascar. Since the names discussed earlier were clearly meant to be the ford over Gelion [Duin Daer] I have not taken them for the Ford of Ascar. Thus the Ford of the ambush is unnamed.
I think that you maybe right about this.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-66:
What was driven from the Problem of Ros is the reference to Dior's dwelling. It is in §6 of that text, page 369. Lock especialy in note 9 to that text.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-66

Findegil wrote:
The problem is that the abode of Beren and Lúthien is only given in "The Problem of Ros".


It is? The name Lanthir Lamath is given in note 9 to the text (and in the Shibboleth), and it is here that we find an explanation for the name "Elwing" - but that they dwelt on Tol Galen in the river Adurant is not told here. It must derive from something, but I cannot think what. If it can be found, we ought to use the original text rather than QS77. Also, we should follow the exact words of "Ros" rather than Christopher's reformulation. Rather than:

<Sil77 {At}And at that time Beren and Lúthien{ yet} dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon flowed down to join with {Gelion}[Duin Dear]; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.>

I would say:

<Sil77 And [a]t that time Beren and Lúthien yet dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon flowed down to join with {Gelion}[Duin Dear]; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel[,]> <Shibboloth and beside one great waterfall , called in Sindarin Lanthir Lamath ('waterfall of echoing voices'), Dior had his house.> <QS77 The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray.> <Ros For she was born on a clear night of stars, the light of which glittered in the spray of the waterfall beside {his} her father's house.

RD-EX-70

I would go with Maedhros's suggestion.


The continuation of my comments:

RD-EX-75

I don't think I understand the change of "as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed" to "as the Dwarves entered the woods on the further bank".

RD-EX-76

<TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony}[Great] Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; {and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain,} and well nigh all their host{.}[ were slain,]

I don't see the need to delete "and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain". True, we are not told of any Dwarvish chiefs other than Naugladur. But this is just as true of the original TN. Surely we can suppose that there were lesser Dwarvish leaders under Naugladur, as indeed we assert in the very next sentence.

RD-EX-78

I'm sorry to say I think this change goes too far. We don't know that the bow Beren had here was the Bow of Bregor, nor that it was at this point that he gave it to Dior. We simply can't state it, I'm afraid.

§49 (§38)
and thereat he made alone upon Naugladur and his companions, and having slain the foremost of these the others fled away {amid elfin laughter},

I suppose the rationale here is that in the later legendarium, the Elves would not laugh here. But I don't know that that's true.

§50 (§39)
I will slay this {Elf}[Men]

Should be "Man".

RD-EX-79
<TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on for ever above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and so do still

We must delete "and so do still" in view of the sinking of Beleriand.

RD-EX-81
of Berens return Melain

Two typos: should be ". . . of Beren's return Melian . . .".

§ 51e (§44)
Then said Tinúviel that she desired not things of worth or precious stones but the elfin gladness of the forest

"elfin" > "Elven"

§51f (§45)

Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained

Didn't we say already that Ascar was renamed Rathloriel? We should not say it twice.

RD-EX-83
<TN Yet{yet} is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the{ seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath.

We have just said that the deathless oath was waked from sleep - so I think we must change the prelminary "Yet" here. Perhaps:

<TN {yet is it to tell that} For bitterness entered into the hearts of the{ seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath.

RD-EX-84
<TN And Celegrom {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the{ southern} vales[ of Doriath], ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes

Elwing's age is unclear in TN, but in the later chronology she is 3 or 4 at this point; in view of this and the fact that there is no later reference (as far as I recall) to her wearing the Nauglamir during this period, I think we should drop the reference.

RD-EX-85
and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, {nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko} – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,<editorial addition where this had come from,>’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’>

I don't understand this change.

RD-SL-32.5
<TY and {Celegorn}[Celegorm] {inflames} inflamed the brethren,>

It sounds awkward to repeat "brethren" after "Then went Curufin unto his brethren". I would say:

]<TY and {Celegorn}[Celegorm] {inflames} inflamed {the brethren} them,>

and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk

This is curious. I was about to say that we must change "first" to "second", but then I realized that of course the kin-slaying at Alqualonde was already present in the Lost Tales. Perhaps the first kin-slaying is not deemed "premeditated"? I suppose we must keep the text as it is, but it is rather strange.

RD-SL-33 {Dior}><TY the east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}was slain, RD-EX-89 <TY {There}there fell also {Celegorn}[Celegorm] (by Dior's hand)

We must either change the comma after "slain" to a semicolon or edit the text of TY. I would go with the former.

RD-EX-92

<Sil77 Of this Maedhros later indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing.>

Why have we added "later"?

<TN Now was naught left of the seed of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion] son of {Egnor}[Barahir] save Elwing the Lovely

In TN, Auredhir was slain and Elwing escaped, so this was true. But now the fate of her brothers is not known for sure, so we cannot know that naught was left of the seed of Beren save Elwing.

<TY hearing the rumour /that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens/>

It seems unlikely that this is the rumour that they heard, since this is listed under 506-507 and the exiles of Gondolin did not reach Sirion until 511 - where indeed they found Elwing's people already. The meaning of "rumour" is unclear, and it may be, as Christopher interprets it, a reference to the people of Gondolin. But that is far from clear, and if so it represents a change in the story. I would delete the whole phrase and simply say:

And in time they departed for ever from the glades of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] . . .

RD-EX-95
And thus did all the fates of the fairies weave then to one strand

If we are changing "lamp of Faerie" to "lamp of Feanor" should we not change "fairie" or "faerie" at all occurrences to "Elves" or something else?

I still need to review the arguments relating to RD-SL-27 before I have anything to say about that.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-66:
I we lock for the source of the home of Beren and Lúthien on Tal Galen. The suggestion about the original text is good.

RD-EX-70: Agreed.

RD-EX-75: Since I wanted the Ents involved in the fight nearer to the ford, to make the reduced numbers of Greenelves more possible and so to follow the Letter more closly than Christopher Tolkien had done. Thus I toke in stead of the wood benath Mount Dolmed the woded further shore of the river which is mention before.

RD-EX-76: Agreed, we will hold the slain chiefes as I did in my alternate version.

RD-EX-78: Well, yes it is fare fetched. But on the other hand, way shouldn't he use that bow? But for the sake of safty we will scip that change.

§49 "the elfin laughter":
The statment goes back to a stage when the fight on the further shore was discribed as in TN. There the flying Dwarves were discribed in detail. And it was especialy stated that he lock of the flying Dwarves filled the Elves with mirth. Do we consider to hold that motiv, or are we just going not to skip the pure statment that the elves laughed. And if the later isn't that a slight change of meaning? For the former I would suggest to add the description:§47 (§324) <TN Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them> RD-EX-75 <Sil77 eastwards towards the mountains. And as {they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed}<editorial change the Dwarves entered the woods on the further bank> there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> RD-EX-76 <TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony}[Great] Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host{.}, RD-EX-77 <TN for even though Naugladur and his captains led their bands stoutly never might they grip their foe, and death fell like rain upon their ranks until the most part broke and fled, and a noise of clear laughter echoed from the Elves thereat, and they forebore to shoot more, for the illshapen figures of the Dwarves as they fled, their white beards tornby the wind, filled them with mirth.>

§48 (§325) <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and {he remembered the words of Gwendelin, for} behold, Beren came towards him and he cast aside his bow, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.>

§49 (§326) <TN Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an thou canst, O crook-legged murderer, else will I take it,’ and Naugladur bid him even the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the necklace of wonder, that he be suffered to go unharmed; but Beren said: ‘Nay, that may I still take when thou art slain,’ and thereat he made alone upon Naugladur and his companions, and having slain the foremost of these the others fled away amid {elfin}[elven] laughter, and so Beren came upon Naugladur, slayer of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]. ...

RD-EX-79: Nice catch. But we should delet also the "for ever" in the first sentence, thus we will get:§51b (§329) RD-EX-79 <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on{ for ever} above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now is the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none seek the treasure that {it}[Ascar] guards [near by] nor dare ever to cross the{ magic} stream[of Duin Daer] at that enchanted place.

§51e:
Maedhros suggested "elfin gladness" -> "elvish gladness", at least I wouldn't kapitalise "Elven" if that is what we take in here.

§51f:
Yes we have mentioned the renaming in the version were the Elves drown the treassure activley (fight at the Ford over Duin Daer), but not so in the alternate version (fight at a Ford over Ascar).
If we take the first version i would suggest:§51f (§333) Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river{ Ascar, and named it anew} Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.} ...

RD-EX-83: Agreed.

RD-EX-84:
Agreed. Elwing is to young to wear the Nauglamir. But I would rather change the sentence to make it refer to Dior, which would agree to the earlier statment:§56a (§337) ... RD-EX-84 <TN And Celegrom {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the{ southern} vales[ of Doriath], ‘and {Elwing his daughter}[he] bears it whitherso {she}[he] goes - but do you not forget, ...

RD-EX-85:
That change was discussed between me an Maedhros. In view of his reading of the passage, I think we must skip the complete last part (sad as it is):§56b (§338) ... ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior{ waxed wroth,} bidding him be gone{, nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’}>RD-EX-86 <TY [ returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./>Thus solving the problemyou see.

RD-SL-32.5: Agreed.

"first premeditated war": Well, I did ever understand it with the emphasis on "premeditated", which made that kinslaying much worth than the first.

RD-SL-33, RD-EX-89:
I also like the change from comma to semicolon more than the second option.

RD-EX-92:
The later was added because the fight was not yet over, though I thought he would not search for the brethern while the weapons stil spoke. But the add was maybe in the wrong place. This would be better:§57 & §58a (§339) ... RD-EX-92 <Sil77 Of this Maedhros indeed repented, and sought later for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing.>RD-EX-93 <TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].)>

§58c:
Thus you think we should make that sentence read thus:[Quote]§58c (§341) RD-EX-94 <TN Now{ was naught left of the seed of Beren Ermabwed son of Egnor save} Elwing the Lovely{, and she} wandered <editorial addition along with Nimloth> in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to her>. ...

I agree on the reference to the Gondolindrim has to go. Your suggestion is good.

I also agree on "faries"-> "Elves"

Locking forward for your comments on RD-SL-27.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

RD-EX-66:
Tol-Galen is only twice mentioned in the HoME Series, and all these phrases are in the Quenta Silmarillion in HoME V. The first is a footnote to chapter 9: Of Beleriand and its Realms. In the discription of Ossiriand the footnote reffers to the name Adurant. It was later inserted and reads:And at a point nearly midway in its course the stream of Adurant divided and joined again, enclosing a fair island; and this was called Togalen, the Green Isle. There Beren and Lúthien dwelt after their return.
The second is in the conclusion of the chapter 15 The Quest of the Silmaril 3. It reads:It is said that Beren and Luthien returned to the northern lands of Middle-earth, and dwelt together for a time as living man and woman; for taking up again their mortal form in Doriath, they went forth alone, fearing neither thirst nor hunger, and they passed beyond the rivers into Ossiriand, and abode there in the green isle, Tol-galen, in the midst of Adurant, until all tidings of them ceased. Therefore the Noldor afterwards called that land Gyrth-i-Guinar, the country of the Dead that Live, and no mortal man spoke ever again with Beren son of Barahir; and whether the second span of his life was brief or long is not known to Elves or Men, for none saw Beren and Luthien leave the world or marked where at last their bodies lay.
Both will surely be used in their proper place. Thus if we wont give the info that Beren and Lúthien dwelt on Tol-Galen in our current chapter again, I would suggest we use the passage from Sil77.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-66

Thus if we wont give the info that Beren and Lúthien dwelt on Tol-Galen in our current chapter again, I would suggest we use the passage from Sil77.


Yes - but considering that exactly the same information will be given twice elsewhere, and Tolkien didn't see a need to restate it at this point in the narrative, I don't see why we should. I would skip it.

RD-EX-75

Okay, this change seems to make sense now. Still, I would retain "they" instead of replacing it with "the Dwarves".

RD-EX-78

I agree, nothing necessitates that he was not using the Bow of Bregor at this point. But as you say it is far-fetched. What we would need is not the absence of evidence to the contrary but rather the presence of evidence for his use of the Bow of Bregor, which we don't have. So we must skip it.

§49
Well, I'm not sure whether to retain the Elven laughter or not. A case could be made that it's out of keeping with the later character of the Elves.

§51e:
Maedhros suggested "elfin gladness" -> "elvish gladness", at least I wouldn't kapitalise "Elven" if that is what we take in here.

You're right - the capitalization was a mistake.

RD-EX-85

Sorry, I had neglected to reread the discussion that had already taken place between you and Maedhros. You propose:

§56b (§338) ... ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior{ waxed wroth,} bidding him be gone{, nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’}>RD-EX-86 <TY [ returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./>


I would go with this, except that I don't see the need for the additions to the last sentence. It is clear from context that it is "to their claim" that he returns no answer - and considering that we have deleted his words precisely in order to follow the statement that he returned no answer, I don't see any reason to modify it with "clear".

RD-EX-79

I still don't see the need for "later". Maedhros does nothing more in the fight; and in any case, we don't specify when he makes his search.

RD-SL-27

This turns out to be a tricky issue. I think you are right that we should consider the second Silmarillion map here. But I'm afraid I must disagree with you regarding its interpretation. I think any ambiguity in the map was quite unintentional - there is no suggestion that the road crosses the Ascar. If it did, it would have to be in the foothills of the mountains and quite close to the sources of Ascar - and this is quite out of keeping with any accounts of the battle. Moreover, it seems very unlikely that Tolkien would not draw the ford of Ascar on the map if such a ford not only existed but was also the site of this important battle.

So I would say that the second Silmarillion map cannot be considered to coincide with the TY version. What this leaves us with is the Lost Tales which put the battle at the ford of Aros (in a vague and unclear geography), the Sketch and the Quenta which put the battle at the stony ford over Gelion, and finally the second Silmarillion map and TY which are at variance, one putting the battle at the Fords of Ascar and the other suggesting that no such ford existed.

If either TY or the second Silmarillion map were clearly later than the other, then matters would be more clear. But they are both, as far as I can tell, from about 1951. We therefore have three possible explanations:

1. "Ascar" in TY is a mistake for "Gelion". This seems plausible at least, since despite the fact that the ford is over Gelion, the river Ascar is very closely associated with the story due to the casting of the gold into it and its renaming.

2. As unlikely as it seems, Tolkien intended the Ford of Ascar to be in the mountains, very close to the source of the river, and yet did not indicate this on the map.

3. Tolkien changed the story in between the second Silmarillion map and TY. In this case of course we cannot know which was the final conception without determining which of these texts came first.

In the absence of any further evidence concerning dates of composition, option 3 cannot enter into our consideration. That leaves us to decide between 1 and 2. To me, 1 seems far more likely - so I suppose in the end I am for keeping the battle at the ford over Duin Daer.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-66: Okay, I can live with that. In that case I think we should take than even more of Ros into consideration. Do you would agree to this version of the §?§43a (§315) TN Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the {River Gelion}[Duin Daer], where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], {sons}son of Fëanor. To the south of those lands between the {river Gelion}[Duin Daer] and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, {Gelion}[Duin Daer], Ascar, Thalos, Legolin, Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant. There lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Lúthien, in that time of respite which Lúthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Cor}[Tirion], nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the [First] Battle of {Unnumbered Tears}.> But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Elves called it oft {Gwenh-i-cuina }[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live{.} [b]RD-EX-66<Sil77; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel;><Shibboloth and beside one great waterfall , called in Sindarin Lanthir Lamath ('waterfall of echoing voices'), Dior had his house.><Ros Dior{ their son}, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's<editorial addition , the Bëorian of Dorthonion>, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doritah. For he said: 'I am the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the Eluchil.' He gave to his elder son the name Eluréd, that is said to have the same sigificance, but ended in the Bëorian word rêda 'heir'; to his second son he gave the name Elurín, but his daugther the name Elwing For she was born on a clear night of stars, the light of which glittered in the spray of the waterfall by which his house was built. The word wing was Bëorina, meaning fine rain or the spray from fountains and waterfalls blown by a wind; but he joined this to Elvish el- 'star' rather than to the Bëorian, because it was more beautiful, and also went with the names ofher brothers: the name Elwë (Sindarin Elu) was believed to be and probably was drived from el 'star'.> RD-EX-67<TN {and Auredhir was}And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his}their forefather Beren, and all loved {him}them, yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinúviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>

RD-EX-75: Agreed.

RD-EX-78: Done.

§49: I think the elfish laughter is out of place, but I understand your argument that we have no clear evidence against it. I would like to have Maedhros input to this.

§51e: So, are we to take "elven gladness" or "elvish gladness"?

RD-EX-85: Agreed. the addition of "clear" is know obsolet, and if you find "to their claim" not necessary, we will skip it.

RD-EX-79: Okay so we will skip the "later".

RD-SL-27: Isn't the development in TY in itself an efidence for a change in the story? I felt that it was so. In any case, the map is earlier, and was only reworked about 1951. Thus a missing incooperation of a changed placment of a battle-place is no hard fact. Eitherway, to become more sure of the timing of making of both sources is in order. I will research what can be learned about that.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

RD-SL-27:
What I found is not to much but here we go:
The map itself was old. But the Road was put in later. All changes made to the map are recorded, but they are in no way dated (which seems in many instances nearly impossible to do anyway). The only slight evidence that I could find is the name "Duin Dhaer" as a replacment of "Gelion" and "Rathmalad" for "Rathloriel". These changes were at least made in the same period as the similar changes in the TY Version D (Rathloriel -> Rathmallen). But that does only tell us that the map was still used at that time. It does not provide us with any evidence that the Dwarf-road shown represented Tolkien view at that time or that it was drawn in at that time. But from what can be seen in the Chapter "Maeglin" of HoME XI he still found the representation of the Dwarf-Road east of Gelion fitting, since he didn't change it when he put the way of Eöl from Nogord to Nan Elmoth and beyond in a copy of the map. The “Maeglin” story was worked at very lat in Tolkien’s live about 1970. We are not told if the line of red dots that represented the way of Eöl started in Nogrod, it is just said that, “this red dotted line continues straight on across square G13 to Sarn Athrad, and then coincides with the Dwarf-Road up into the mountains, already present in the primary map.”
Christopher Tolkien does also not give as an good dating for TY D. He suggested that it was may be contemporary with JRR Tolkiens work on the ‘Turin-Saga’ which would be slightly later then the rest of the TY which Aiwendil dated correctly in 1951-2. But the change of the battle-place to a ford of Ascar was represented already in TY C. From TY B and TY A I got the impression that even their the Ford was over Ascar, because the battle is “at Rath-loriel”.

Thus we are still no further in our decision.

But the map does provide us with a good reason for Tolkiens change: The distance between the Ford over Gelion and the river Ascar is about 4.75 miles or 7.6 kilometres. That would be a walk of about 1.5 hours on a road, but to make that cross country laden with a heavy burden would take considerably longer. If Beren had (as we assume) only a small number of Greenelves we must ask our self how he transported the Hoard to the river Ascar to drown it.

Posted by Aiwendil: I think any ambiguity in the map was quite unintentional - there is no suggestion that the road crosses the Ascar. If it did, it would have to be in the foothills of the mountains and quite close to the sources of Ascar - and this is quite out of keeping with any accounts of the battle.I agree that the map does not suggest a crossing of the dwarf-road with Ascar and that if such crossing is to postulated it must be in the foothills and near to the source.
But I don’t see that this would contradict the accounts of the Battle. The only account that is detailed enough to be in anyway contradicted is TN. But even in that case I don’t see a heavy contradiction. The Pass that the road approached is described as “high pass”. Thus the Ascar could be a river spring-fed by a glacier. Anyway it could be a fast and deep stream already near to its source and a heavy obstacle for any crossing in all times of the year. A Ford build from shingle-isles and with a high and step bank on the one side does not strike me as impossible for a short river (not more then 75 miles) in the mountains that swelled Gelion in a way that it was uncross able south of the confluence.

So I am still for your option 2

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-66

I wonder how much of Ros we are justified in putting in here. The sudden etymological discussion certainly interrupts the narrative and sounds out of place. But are we to consider this a problem? I suppose I could go with your suggestion.


RD-SL-72

It still seems to me very plausible that "Ascar" was a mere slip of the pen. Such a change would, I still feel, have necessitated some changes to the geography. I really doubt that the the ford would be as close to Nogrod as the map suggests it would need to be. But of course such a change in geography is quite possible. If Ascar turned northeastward a little more quickly, or if Nogrod were just slightly further south, the river might need to be forded well before the mountains.

So I am in doubt. Maedhros, what do you think?

[Findegil]

As it seems their are only 3 points left unresolved in the above discussion:

§49 "the elfin laughter":
Aiwendil hasitatingly supported the inclusion of the laughing elves; and I equily hasitating support its execlusion.

§51d laughed -> answered:
Maedhros found it diminishing to the charchter of Beren to laugh at Melian. But I disagree to that, or at least I can not see why we should change it.

(If we will in the end execlued both laughings, it seems we will get a very serious tale.:))

RD-SL-27:
Aiwendil feels more save with the fight at the Ford over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] and a transportation of the Hoard; and I support the fight at the Ford over Ascar that isn't mentioned any where else than in TY.
To this complex I like to put even a further streching: If the Ford over Ascar is postulated for the solution of this complex, than an argument could be made that the name of Sarn Athrad, the Stony Ford, was transfered to that Ford and that therefore the Ford over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] recieved the new name Athrad Daer. (Possible since the name was developed later while working on the Maeglin story.)

One further point need to be discussed: Rathloriel was changed on the map to Rathmalad and in TY to Rathmallen. Should we adopt one of these changes? And if so which one? Also if we change the name, is then the translation Golden-Bed still valid? So do we skip it or can we make an updated one?
Since Rathmalad is only hastily penciled and not entirly clear, I would go with Rathmallen which is at least fairly readable and thus in my view more reliable. But I have no clou how this would translat into english.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Findegil and Aiwendil:
You may have noticed that I have not posted much in the last few weeks, unfortunately this is due because my grandmother has been very ill and alas she has died yesterday.
If you will give me sometime to do somethings that I need to arrange, hopefully I can give my opinions shortly.

[Aiwendil]

I'm very sorry to hear about your loss, Maedhros. You have my sincere sympathy. Please take all the time you need - don't feel that this project is yet another pressure to deal with.

Findegil: About Rathmalad/Rathmallen. I think that at least this point is easy enough to deal with; the translation should be unchanged. the LOR- stem, I believe, refers to "golden" as a colour of light (as in "Laurelin"). The MAL- stem refers to "golden" meaning "of or relating to the metal gold".

I'm a little unsure whether Rathmalad or Rathmallen would be preferrable to adopt, but you make a good case for Rathmallen.

[Maédhros]

Thanks Aiwendil.

Now regarding the RD-SL-27 issue:
Let me quote the following:
From The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Quenta
To the north of that region is a ford across the river Ascar, near to its joining with Duilwen7 that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named Sarn-athra,8 the Ford of Stones. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached their homes,9 and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host. But Beren took the Nauglafring,10 the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril; and it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathlorion,
The interesting thing to note here is that at first, the battle in the Ford is across the River Ascar and that the treasure was drowned in that same River. Then JRRT changed the first mention of Ascar to Gelion. Thus we have that the battle took place in the Ford across Gelion and the treasure was drowned in another River called Ascar.
I find it very interesting the fact that JRRT would only change his narrative in the way that at first both of these events ocurred in the same river, and then the fight occurred in one and the drowning in the other. My personal opinion is that JRRT intended to have both things occurred in the same river, but that he forgot to make the second change. CT has another opinion in his Commentary.
In the Tale of Years it is said that the battle took place across the River Ascar as in the Original version of chapter 14 of the Quenta.
I think that it is a slip in the part of JRRT and that he meant rather Gelion.
It is funny but my personal preference is to have the fight as Findegil points out (why take that whole treasure to drown in another river?) but in the end I have to side with CT that JRRT meant that the fight took place in Gelion and the drowning took place in Ascar.

§49 "the elfin laughter":
Aiwendil hasitatingly supported the inclusion of the laughing elves; and I equily hasitating support its execlusion.

I don't see the need for it's exclusion. Elves laughing at the dwarves at that situation do not seem out of character from them. After all they were pretty brave in Menegroth and then lost their valour.

§51d laughed -> answered:
Maedhros found it diminishing to the charchter of Beren to laugh at Melian. But I disagree to that, or at least I can not see why we should change it.
I guess that I can make the little point that in the Tale, Beren was an Elf and not a Man. To me, the later Beren is a noble character who would not disrespect a maiar like Melian.
Aiwendil, what do you think?

[Findegil]

First let me express my sincere condolences to you, Maédhros.


RD-SL-27:
In Q30 Tolkien named the Great River of East-Beleriand (latest name Duin Daer) at first Ascar. Then when he found that the first tributary of that river should have that name he changed the name to Flend and later to Gelion.
With the geography that underlaies Q30 I would not have any problem. The Ford was directly south of the confluence of Flend [Duin Daer] and Ascar. Thus a hoard drowned at that ford would have been drowned figuratively in both rivers. Such a ford as Sarn Athrad in the position of Q30 would have been builded out of the load of stones carried by Ascar (that were droped when with the confluence the current became less strong). That would have provided a good reason to rename the river Ascar to Rathlorion -> Rathloriel -> Rathmallen, since the implication of the gold in the ford would hve been that Ascar did carry that gold and laied it down at the confluence.
But the geography changed. The Ford over Duin Daer is now clearly a few miles north of the confluence. If the Battle is still at that Ford and the hoard is to be drowned in Ascar the elves must activly transport it.
In TY we do not have a clear picture of the geography involved. But it can be seen clearly that JRR Tolkien changed the story. The "slip of the pen" argument does not work for me. In no Versions of TY the River Gelion is even mentioned and any way Gelion was never the renamed River. That was in fact the tributary river ever since the fight was moved away from Aros.

I think that JRR Tolkien changed the fight to be at a Ford over Ascar exactly because he wanted to aviod that transport and any activity of the Elves with the hoard. In my view we could only hold the fight at the ford over Duin Daer when we label the changed that occoured in TY as "unworkable outline", but it does not seem to be, for me at least.

§49 "the elfin laughter":
Okay, if you both feel that eves laughin at the flying dwarves is fine we will take them in from both occurences.

§51d laughed -> answered:
Are you suggesting that for an Elf it would not have been disrespectfull to laugh at Melians warning? That only would be true for me if I would lock at Elves like the group that welcomed Gandalf, Bilbo and Thorin & Co. in Rivendell in the Hobbit. But even then, Beren talks here with his mother in law and she is giving him advise in a grave matter concerning his beloved. And equally if he is an Elf or an Adan Melian is fare above him in wisdom, in rank and in expirence. Thus it was disrespectfull anyway. And we have no hint that JRR Tolkien planed to change it. On the conteray the outcome of the conversation never changed: Beren kept the Nauglamír against Melians advice.

Rathloriel -> Rathmalad or Rathmallen:
Rathmallen, the Golden Bed, it will become in the next version of the text.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-SL-27

The second Silmarillion map does suggest that the ford is a few miles north of the confluence. However, as Findegil noted:

The map itself was old. But the Road was put in later. All changes made to the map are recorded, but they are in no way dated (which seems in many instances nearly impossible to do anyway). The only slight evidence that I could find is the name "Duin Dhaer" as a replacment of "Gelion" and "Rathmalad" for "Rathloriel". These changes were at least made in the same period as the similar changes in the TY Version D (Rathloriel -> Rathmallen). But that does only tell us that the map was still used at that time. It does not provide us with any evidence that the Dwarf-road shown represented Tolkien view at that time or that it was drawn in at that time.

If we doubt the map sufficiently to suppose that there is an unindicated and improbable continuation of the road into the mountains the crosses Ascar near its source, then surely we can also doubt the distance it gives between the ford and the confluence of the rivers. We are dealing with small distances on a large-scale map. If the dwarf road were drawn just a bit further south then the apparent distance of a few miles would evaporate, and there would be no difficulty in believing that the treasure was drowned in Ascar. And indeed, the fact that the road runs so perfectly parallel to the river suggests that it is in fact following the river on its north side, and is perhaps a shade closer than the map literally indicates.

So I do not think that there is necessarily a problem with the ford being over Duin Daer and the gold ending up in Ascar - first of all because the map may exaggerate the short distance between the Ascar and the road, and second because even if the distance as drawn on the map is taken to be several miles, it's possible that the map doesn't represent Tolkien's final intention. Indeed, if Tolkien did see a problem with the gold being transported from the ford to Ascar, by far the easier solution would have been simply to bring the ford closer to the confluence.

It seems to me, then, much more natural to suppose that the ford remained over Duin Daer and that "Ascar" in TY was a slip. But I admit that this depends on two suppositions: 1. that the ford is closer to the confluence than the map indicates; 2. that "ford of Ascar" was a mistake.

I am still not happy with either alternative, then. The relevant principle here is:

5. Information in sources of lower level priority is to be preferred over information in sources of higher level priority where the item of information in source of higher level priority can be reasonably demonstrated to be an error, whether a "slip of the pen" or from inadequate checking of previous writing.


And, despite the fact that I strongly suspect that the TY reference is a "slip of the pen", I cannot convince myself that this can be "reasonably demonstrated" (which is, however, a necessarily vague criterion).

So my dilemma is that I am inclined to think that the ford remained over Duin Daer, but that I am also inclined to view our principles as supporting the change to Ascar.

I definitely need to consider this further.

§51d laughed -> answered:

I agree with Findegil here; if it is out of character for an Adan to laugh at Melian, it is surely also out of character for an Elf. I do think that there is a general change in tone after the Lost Tales, and in fact I suspect that if Tolkien had re-written the story in the '50s, he would not have had Beren laugh. However - that is not justification for our exclusion of it. We do not really have any hard evidence against the laughter.

[Findegil]

First some remarks on the later geography: I do not think that the drawing of the road is so much in error that the Ford over Duin Daer would be directly north the confluence. As the reason for that I can only put forward the story of the Folk of Haleth. But I must admiss that only a small distance is needed to provide enough space for a stockard. On the other hand, if we take the map in such a liberal way than a Ford over Ascar in the foothills of the mountians is even more possible.

Let me add a further remark on the changed geography: In the Maeglin chapter we get the follwing passage:From Elmoth to Gelion the land was, north of the Andram and the Falls below the last Ford over Gelion (8)(just above the inflow of the River Ascar from the Mountains), mostly rolling plain, with large regions of big trees without thickets. There were several beaten tracks made originally by Dwarves from Belegost and Nogrod, the best (most used and widest) being from the Little Ford past the north of Elmoth and to the Ford of Aros, it crossed the Bridge of Esgalduin but went no further for, if the Dwarves wished to visit Menegroth

This text then becomes altogether illegible. ...

Note (8) reads: The Falls in Gelion below Sarn Athrad have not been referred to before, and indeed in QS Chapter 9 Of BEleriand and its Realms (V.262-3, §113; The Silmarillion p.122) their existence is denied: 'Gelion had neither fall nor rapids throughout his course'.That means that geography had realy changed. We do not known, if the "discovery" of the Falls in the course of Gelion, where the reason for the new placeing of the Ford (some way north of the confluence instad of directly south of it). But I think that this at least possible if not likely.
For me, this does also cast some doubt on the discription of the Ford in TN. But I have not enough knowledge about this part of hydro-geography to come up with an argument for my doubts.


Now to the slip of the pen: I will try to add some arguments against that. In my last post I did make my reasons rejecting that idea not very clear.
AB2 makes not clear over which river the Ford Sarn Athrad lead, but the gold is cast into the river Ascar which than renamed Rathloriel. The temporary scripts make clear that Sarn Athrad was over Gelion and the Elves activley cast the gold in the river Ascar. All 4 version of TY are clearly reformulated. In A the only name given is the new name for the river Rathloriel, but it is at this river were the battle ocourse. In TY B the ford is named Sarn Athrad and led over Rathloriel. In C and in D the Ford is over Ascar and the Dwarves cast the gold them self into that river and that river is renamed to Rathloriel.

I would agree to a possible slip of the pen in the very short version TY A, but if that is the case then the following versions worked on these failure (if a failure it was) in a kind development that I can not lock at as unconsicous. Thus if a slip of the pen it was in A, it is no longer in TY C and D at least.

That is what I can put forward in the Moment. It might be good if you would give your reason for suspecting that all the versions of TY were a case of repeated slip of the pen.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

I will try and make my point again.

First, we have in the Quenta that for a brief time, the place where the battle took place and where the treasure was drowned was the same River. (Ascar)
Then, there is a change in which the battle took place in the ford over the River Gelion but it was drowned in the River Ascar.

Now in the Tale of Years, as Findegil has posted, in version B,C and D the battle takes place in the fords over the River Ascar, but the ones who slay the dwarves are not Beren and Co. but rather Celegorm and Curufin. Now, if we are going to use the Tale of Years alternative that the fight was over the ford of the River Ascar, we should take also the fact that it was Celegorm and Curufin who were involved in the fight and not Beren and Co. Can we justify using half a sentence from there but not the other part? Doesn't that make dubious that alteration?

[Aiwendil]

I think I have stumbled upon a further complication.

TY B has the curious:

Celegorm and Curufin destroy the Dwarf-host at Sarn-athrad in Rath-loriel

If this is to be believed, then at this stage we have not the story that is being proposed for our use; rather, the battle remains at Sarn-athrad, but Sarn-athrad becomes a ford over Rath-loriel/Ascar.

In C and D the battle is at "the fords of Ascar". It is not made clear whether the ford described is Sarn-athrad or not.

But by the late work on "Maeglin", Sarn Athrad (which there becomes Harathrad and then Athrad Daer) is again over Gelion.

I had not before observed that in B it is not only the position of the battle that changes but in fact the position of Sarn Athrad - and that this change was certainly temporary, as seen in "Maeglin".

This raises for me the question of whether TY C and D in fact represent a change from B or not. If not, then they refer to Ascar not because, as we have supposed, there is now another ford over that river, at which the battle now takes place, but rather because at this stage Sarn Athrad was a ford over Ascar, not Gelion, and the battle remained at Sarn Athrad. Alternatively, one could suppose that C represents a further stage of development from B, with the name "Sarn Athrad" transferred back to the ford over Gelion but the battle kept at the (now unnamed) ford over Ascar. Or one could suppose that Ascar in all these TY versions is a mistake (which I still think is a possibility, though I admit it may be unlikely).

Suppose we discount the possibility that it is a mistake. We are left with the two possibilities:

1. The story underlying TY C is the same as that in B: Sarn-athrad is now a ford over Ascar.

2. The story has changed so that Sarn-athrad is over Gelion and the battle at another ford, over Ascar.

Of these two options, I am inclined to think, in view of the lack of any evidence of a change from the story in B, that 1 is more likely. If this is the case, then the battle was and always remained at Sarn Athrad, and so should it in our version, with Sarn Athrad/Athrad Daer, as per "Maeglin", again over Gelion/Duin Daer.

Maedhros wrote:
Now in the Tale of Years, as Findegil has posted, in version B,C and D the battle takes place in the fords over the River Ascar, but the ones who slay the dwarves are not Beren and Co. but rather Celegorm and Curufin. Now, if we are going to use the Tale of Years alternative that the fight was over the ford of the River Ascar, we should take also the fact that it was Celegorm and Curufin who were involved in the fight and not Beren and Co. Can we justify using half a sentence from there but not the other part? Doesn't that make dubious that alteration?

So you would not follow letter 247, which returns the role to Beren? I see no reason to think that the story in this letter necessitates the placing of the ford at any particulary place.

[Maédhros]

So you would not follow letter 247, which returns the role to Beren? I see no reason to think that the story in this letter necessitates the placing of the ford at any particulary place.
I'm sorry for not making myself clear. In the case of the Letter 247, it is explictly staten that Beren regains the rôle that he once had in TY B and that the battle took place about a ford across one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir.

My point was that because Tolkien in that letter changed the rôle of Celegorm and Curufin back to Beren, is it reliable to consider that the battle between the dwarves and Beren and Co. would be in a ford over the River Ascar. If one part of the note was changed, does that make the other part dubious?

Then again, I think that you have made a fine point with:
Of these two options, I am inclined to think, in view of the lack of any evidence of a change from the story in B, that 1 is more likely. If this is the case, then the battle was and always remained at Sarn Athrad, and so should it in our version, with Sarn Athrad/Athrad Daer, as per "Maeglin", again over Gelion/Duin Daer.

[Findegil]

The possible transfer of the name Sarn Athrad to the supposed Ford over Ascar I mention in post #26. And the more I think about it the more I am inclined to feel that this is the way to go.

As Aiwendil did in his post I will put forward my view of the textual development. This is clearly a subjektive view and can be in error in some places, but I hope it will give some insight into my arguments:
The situation that I start my lock with is represented in Q30:
The River Gelion had no falls or rapids.
The Ford named Sarn Athrad was directly south of the confluence of Ascar and Gelion.
The Battle took place at Sarn Athrad.
The gold was cast either actively by the Elves into Ascar (near at hand) or by the dwarves into the Ford over the joined waters of Ascar and Gelion. ( I think that Tolkien meant the second option and wrote Ascar here more figuratively.)

Now Tolkien "discovered" the story of the fight of the Folk of Haleth against the Orcs. This necessitated a change in the geography by which Sarn Athrad moved to a place somewhat north of the confluence of Ascar and Gelion. (I think that in these geographic development the falls of Gelion were introduced, but that can not be demonstrated.)
In view of this the casting of the Gold into Ascar as described in Q30 would become an active deed of the Elves.
That the pass south of the Dolmed led still into Ossirinad and therefore came down south of Ascar is seen by the fact that all the groups of Men that came over the mountains first came to Ossiriand and not to Thargelion. The House of Bëor removed to Estolad by the biding of Felagund and the House of Marach followed them, but the House of Haleth was driven out of Ossiriand by the Green-Elves.

When Tolkien now came to write TY he wanted to avoid the active role the Elves played in the drowning of the hoard. But he also still wanted the Gold to be cast into the River Ascar and not into Gelion, because Ascar was the River that would receive a new name in the course of that story. Thus he changed the place of the battle to be at a Ford over Ascar. (Such a Ford, as is demonstrated above, was anyway necessary.) This change underlies already the very compressed expression in TY A even if it is not made very explicit. That Ford over Ascar was named now Sarn Athrad as is more clearly seen in TY B, C and D in which Tolkien developed the story further by introducing Curufin and Celegrom. (I will not go into detail of that development since it is clearly rejected in Letter no. 247.)

The only further information we have is in the "Maeglin"-papers. There we are given the information that between the ford over Gelion and the confluence with Ascar is a Fall in the River of Gelion. The Name Sarn Athrad is found only three times in these papers: Once (uncorrected) in a note describing Eöls journey to Nogrod (label (ii) by Christopher Tolkien) and in two marginal notes to the unnamed Ford over Gelion in which we are told that the Ford should be renamed from Sarn Athrad to Athrad Daer, Harathrad or Athrad i-Negyth.
Since we see Tolkien here "thinking with the pen" I would interpret the mention of Sarn Athrad in note (ii) as a unconscious use of an long established but now outdated name for the Ford over Gelion. In the other places were he spoke about the Ford he did not name it and in the accompanying notes he developed a new name for the Ford over Gelion since Sarn Athrad, the Stony Ford, was possibly no longer fitting for that Ford and was now used for the Ford over Ascar.

In the above given interpretation of mine a "slip of the pen" is only once needed to make it work. I view that as a evidence that I am not to fare of track, since to supposed that the author is in error by writing about his own creation is a trick that only works for me as ultima ratio. But anyway it is an very subjective interpretation. I hope it will bring some clearness for you about my view on the subject at least.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros wrote:
I'm sorry for not making myself clear. In the case of the Letter 247, it is explictly staten that Beren regains the rôle that he once had in TY B and that the battle took place about a ford across one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir.


But both Ascar and Gelion are counted among the seven rivers. I do not think that the reversion from Celegorm and Curufin back to Beren necessitates a reversion from Ascar back to Gelion.

Findegil wrote:
The possible transfer of the name Sarn Athrad to the supposed Ford over Ascar I mention in post #26.

I had failed to notice the significance of this change earlier.

I have a few disagreements with your summary of the texts.

Now Tolkien "discovered" the story of the fight of the Folk of Haleth against the Orcs. This necessitated a change in the geography by which Sarn Athrad moved to a place somewhat north of the confluence of Ascar and Gelion.

I don't know that it matters, but I don't think this can have been his motivation for moving the ford from its Q30 position. The placing of Sarn Athrad south of the confluence, as in Q30, presents no problem for the story of the battle of the Folk of Haleth and the Orcs, since the Halethrim took refuge on the north side of the confluence.

That the pass south of the Dolmed led still into Ossirinad and therefore came down south of Ascar is seen by the fact that all the groups of Men that came over the mountains first came to Ossiriand and not to Thargelion.

I am not so sure about this. Do we know for certain that the Edain came through that pass? Is it not possible that they came up into Ossiriand out of the southeast, and thus passed south of the mountains? Or, is it not possible that the pass came down north of Ascar and that the Edain crossed the river into Ossiriand (for in any case, Ascar must not be impassable for its whole length).

In the above given interpretation of mine a "slip of the pen" is only once needed to make it work. I view that as a evidence that I am not to fare of track, since to supposed that the author is in error by writing about his own creation is a trick that only works for me as ultima ratio.

But one could make a coherent story out of things without supposing any "slips of the pen" - if Tolkien in fact changed his mind in "Maeglin" and returned Sarn Athrad to Gelion.

It would seem to me very strange for us to use "Athrad Daer", which occurs only as a replacement for Sarn Athrad, for the ford over Gelion, and too retain "Sarn Athrad" for the ford over Ascar. For this was certainly not Tolkien's intention when he wrote "Athrad Daer". On the other hand, it also seems wrong for us to now place the battle, which in every text occurs at Sarn Athrad, at an unnamed ford over Ascar.

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:I don't know that it matters, but I don't think this can have been his motivation for moving the ford from its Q30 position. The placing of Sarn Athrad south of the confluence, as in Q30, presents no problem for the story of the battle of the Folk of Haleth and the Orcs, since the Halethrim took refuge on the north side of the confluence. My asumption that the movement of the ford was necessary is based on the discription of the ford in TN. My feeling is that such a ford builded by isles of shingels with channels of not to deep water between them would be builded so near to a conflunece that it would make both rivers passable. But that is clearly only my oppinion and not a fact.

Posted by Aiwendil:Do we know for certain that the Edain came through that pass? At least we know that they came over the mountains. From HoME XI; The Later Quenta Silmarillion; 14 Of the Coming of Men into the West:§1 ... But he [Felagund] wearied of the chase and passed on alone towards the Mountains of Ered-lindon that he saw shining afar; and taking the Dwarfe-road he crossed Gelion at the Ford of Sarn-athrad, and turining south over the upper streams of Ascar, he came into the north of Ossiriand.
§2 In a valley among the foothills of the Mountains, below the springs of Thalos, he saw lights in the evening, ...
§4 Now these were a part of the kindered and following of Bëor the Old, as he was afterwards called, a chieftain among Men. After many lives of Wandering out of the East he had led them at last over the Mountains, ...
...
§10 But Felagund learned from Bëor that there were many other Men of like mind who were also journeying westward. 'Others of my own kin have crossed the Mountains,' he said, 'and they are wandering not far away: and the Haladin, a people that speak the same tongue as we, are still in the valleys on the eastern slopes, awaiting tidings before they venture further. There are aslo Men of different speech, with whom we have had dealings at times. They were before us in the westward march, but we passed them; for they are a numerous people, and yet keep together and move slowly, being all ruled by one chieftain whom they call Marach.'
...
§13 Soon after the departure of Felagund the other Men of whom Bëor had spoken came alos into Beleriand. First came the Haladin; but meeting the unfriendship of the Nandor they turned north and dwelt in Radhrost, in the country of Caranthir ... The next year, however Marach led his people over the Mountains; and they were a tall and warlike folk, and they marched in ordered companies; and the Green-elves hid themselves and did not waylay them. And Marach hearing that the people of Bëor were dwelling in a green and fertil land, came down the Dwarf-road and settled his people in the country to the south and east of the dwellings of Baran son of Bëor. Here at least it is clearly stated that the Folk of Bëor and Marach crossed the Mountains. And the Folk of Haleth "turned north", which means they had wandered form east to west so far and not from south to north through Ossirand.
Also we learn that the Ascar cold be crossed at least in its upper course. It is not stated but possible that in his southward movment Finrod still followed the Dwarf-road. A posible southward movment of the Edain after crossing the Mountian at the pass about Dolmed is possible but does not seem to be likley: The landscape of southern Thargelion seemd to be very similar to that of northern Ossiriand (as is to be expected), thus I can't find any good reason why all the Edain if they had used a pass that led them into Thargelion would have crossed Ascar. It is much more likley that they used a pass that led them down into Ossirand. It is trure that we do not know that they used the pass near Dolmed to which the Dwarf-road led. All I can bring forward against a second pass further south are only week arguments. Thus my assumption that they used the pass south of Dolmed "rests in the last resort on nothing more definte than the sound principle that where all is uncertain one's hypothesis must be simplified as fare as possible."(JRR Tolkien in "The Freswæl: Finn and Hengest)

Posted by Aiwendil:But one could make a coherent story out of things without supposing any "slips of the pen" - if Tolkien in fact changed his mind in "Maeglin" and returned Sarn Athrad to Gelion. I must say that I have no answer to this. That means it is possible. But I find it unlikley, which is only based on my feeling.

Posted by Aiwendil:It would seem to me very strange for us to use "Athrad Daer", which occurs only as a replacement for Sarn Athrad, for the ford over Gelion, and too retain "Sarn Athrad" for the ford over Ascar. For this was certainly not Tolkien's intention when he wrote "Athrad Daer". On the other hand, it also seems wrong for us to now place the battle, which in every text occurs at Sarn Athrad, at an unnamed ford over Ascar. Is it really so strange? Was not the change of Ascar to Flend in Q30 a bit of simillar kind?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

After a further day of thought and some reading, I will give in. Aiwendil made a good point with his argument that "Maeglin" could also represent a change back to the old story. What I found in addition was this detail from Q30:This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes ... That clearly suggested that there were more than one pass over Ered Luin. Thus it is likley that at least one pass (that the Edain used) led into Ossirand, and it is still possible that the pass south of Dolmed led into Thargelion. Nevertheless many thanks to both of you for a good discussion on this point it had brought me to a much better understanding of the geography of Eastern-Beleriand and the journey of the Edain.

Thus at the long last we will take the battle to be at the ford named Athrad Daer which led over the Duin Daer and the Green-Elves will - implicit of course - transport the hoard and drown it in the River Ascar which is then renamed Rathmallen.

On small possible add I found while rereading what we have done:§47 (§324) <TN Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them> RD-EX-75 <Sil77 eastwards towards the mountains. And as they {climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed}<editorial change entered the woods on the further bank> there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> RD-EX-76 <TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony}[Great] Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host{.}, RD-EX-77 <TN for even though Naugladur and his captains led their bands stoutly never might they grip their foe, and death fell like rain upon their ranks RD-EX-77.5<TN , since {[?}others{]} poured still the hail of arrows upon them, and thus got the Eldar few hurts and the Dwarf-folk fell dead unceasingly> until the most part broke and fled, and a noise of clear laughter echoed from the Elves thereat, and they forebore to shoot more, for the illshapen figures of the Dwarves as they fled, their white beards tornby the wind, filled them with mirth.> Only RD-EX-77.5 is new. We did not use this earlier since their it was the rôle of the Ents to fight down the dwarves but it would fit here nicely as a better discription of the tactic of the Green-Elves.

Also I marked this point: §51d (§331) ... But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's halls, ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ ... I think with changed story "the staining of blood in the king's halls" is outdated. We should replace it by a some other phrase. What's about:§51d (§331) ... But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's {halls}[death], ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ ...Since Thingol is slain while he is caught by the necklace in some bushes the necklace would clearly be bloodstained by his death and possibly not only figurativly.

Otherwise I think we are done with this part of the Ruin of Doriath. The next part are the Wanderings of Húrin. I have provided a list of changes in the thread "The Ruin of Doritah - The Shadow Falls on Brethil".

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

After a further day of thought and some reading, I will give in.

Nevertheless many thanks to both of you for a good discussion on this point it had brought me to a much better understanding of the geography of Eastern-Beleriand and the journey of the Edain.

Yes, this discussion has given me a much better understanding of the confusing issue of the Dwarf roads as well. It's funny how such an apparently minor point, not even noticed in our first discussions, can become one of the major difficulties.

and death fell like rain upon their ranks RD-EX-77.5<TN , since {[?}others{]} poured still the hail of arrows upon them, and thus got the Eldar few hurts and the Dwarf-folk fell dead unceasingly

I like the addition, but I think it would be better to use substitute "for" for "since":

and death fell like rain upon their ranks RD-EX-77.5<TN , for {[?}others{]} poured still the hail of arrows upon them, and thus got the Eldar few hurts and the Dwarf-folk fell dead unceasingly

§51d (§331) ... But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's {halls}[death], ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ ...

I wonder if it would be safer to follow the same course here as we did in Melian's warning to Thingol earlier - that is, simply remove the reference to the curse of the blood:

§51d (§331) ... But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold {and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's {halls}[death],} ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ ...

To me it seems a little forced to replace "halls" with "death"; also, in the original there is a strong symmetry between this warning and Melian's earlier warning to Thingol, which we would break if we handle them differently.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-77.5:
I am okay with "for" -> "since"

§51d:
The symetrie of the warnings is a good argument which I did not consider. we will skip the cruse by the blood stain. But your editing does skip the comma which I think is grammatically needed:§51d (§331) ... But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold {and the [? staining] of blood in the king's halls}, ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

When we made the addition from and the Shibboleth we missed a footnote, which I think should be taken:§316 (§43a) [b]TN Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the {River Gelion}[Duin Daer], where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], {sons}son of Fëanor. To the south of those lands between the {river Gelion}[Duin Daer] and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, {Gelion}[Duin Daer], Ascar, Thalos, Legolin, Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant. There lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Lúthien, in that time of respite which Lúthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Cor}[Tirion], nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the [First] Battle of {Unnumbered Tears}.> But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Elves called it oft {Gwenh-i-cuina }[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live [b]RD-EX-66 <Sil77 ; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel;><Shibboloth and beside one great waterfall , called in Sindarin Lanthir Lamath ('waterfall of echoing voices'), Dior had his house.><Ros Dior{ their son}, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's <editorial addition , the Bëorian of Dorthonion>, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doritah. For he said: 'I am the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the Eluchíl.' He gave to his elder son the name Eluréd, that is said to have the same sigificance, but ended in the Bëorian word rêda 'heir'; to his second son he gave the name Elurín[footnote: ‘Remembrance of Elu’: containing Sindarin rín from Common Eldarin rēnē < base REN ‘recall, have in mind’.], but his daugther the name Elwing For she was born on a clear night of stars, the light of which glittered in the spray of the waterfall by which his house was built. The word wing was Bëorian, meaning fine rain or the spray from fountains and waterfalls blown by a wind; but he joined this to Elvish el- 'star' rather than to the Bëorian, because it was more beautiful, and also went with the names of her brothers: the name Elwë (Sindarin Elu) was believed to be and probably was drived from el 'star'.> RD-EX-67 <TN {and Auredhir was}And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his}their forefather Beren, and all loved {him}them, yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinúviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

RD-SL-27: Coming back to the discussion about where the battle toke place. There is one new information so it might be considered very thin. In his new book Beren and Lúthien Christopher Tolkien does not provide any new texts, but he gives some comments and some interisting editing. Normaly Christopher Tolkien does in this book not introduce changes to the texts, so that very old names like 'Tinwelint and Gwendeling' stand beside new once like 'Thingol and Melian'. But then we come to the last part of Berens story and the book, where his fight against Naugladur is described. Again old Names like 'Glómund' or 'Lamp of Faëry' for the Silmaril are allowed to stand. But on change in the course of the narrative is done, so not consequently. It starts with an editorial replacement (marked as such) in the first sentence:Now came all that host [to the river Ascar], and their array was thus; ...In the original LT text this reads:Now came all that host to the banks of Aros, and their array was thus; ...And in the LT the battle was at the ford over the River Aros that marked the southern boundary of Artanor. And in the rest of the extract from LT the name 'Aros' is allowed to stand.

What this showes, in my oppinion, is that for Christopher Tolkien the ford that was the palce of Berens last fight was that over the river Ascar and not that over Gelion/Duin Daer as we used it. If it changes something or not is up to the farther discussion of this case. But at least I think this is worth considering the case again.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: This is the only case that I could find in Beren and Lúthien that is worth mentioning for the project.

[ArcusCalion]

I would say that this is merely his opinion, as he presents no new information to back up that change, and he has been known to make mistakes of this kind before.

[Findegil]

No question that is only Christopher Tolkiens opinion. I never said otherwise. But in a case like this, where we long debated and did take the decision in the end based on the feeling of the participants of the discussion, Christopher’s opinion is at least worth notice.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

As I posted in the other thread Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin, the footnote of CT in Beren and Lúthien is troubling in its implications for this text: A later version of the story concerning the Nauglamír told that it had been made by craftsmen of the Dwarves long before for Felagund, and that it was the sole treasure that Húrin brought from Nargothrond and gave to Thingol. The task that Thingol then set the Dwarves was to remake the Nauglamír and in it to set the Silmaril that was in his possession. This is the form of the story in the published Silmarillion. I am unsure if there was proof of there being an extant story of this nature before this, but if there was and it was discussed then I apologize for bringing this up again.

[Aiwendil]

RD-SL-27: I've just read through our discussion of this from years ago, and it is such an obscure and complex issue that I can easily believe that a reasonable person could come to either conclusion based on the evidence we have. In the end, I still think I agree with the conclusion we adopted. But I am still far from 100% certain about this conclusion. Christopher Tolkien's opinion is obviously not to be simply discounted, but without any new evidence I don't see any particular reason to change our conclusion. I remain unsure, though, and could certainly be persuaded by a strong argument one way or the other.

About the Nauglamir:

This is indeed puzzling and has potentially very important repurcussions for our text. In particular, I find it difficult to reconcile this statement with two things from "The Wanderings of Hurin".

For the story of the Nauglamîr and the destruction of Doriath, the fall of Gondolin, the attack on the Havens, we must return through more than a quarter of a century to the Quenta Noldorinwa (Q), or beyond.

This would seem to state that no version of that story later than Q exists.

Some interesting remarks of my father's concerning The Wanderings of Húrin are found on the back of one of the slips on which Professor Clyde Kilby wrote comments and criticisms of the work:

"The criticisms seem to me largely mistaken - no doubt because this is a fragment of a great saga, e.g. Thingol and Melian are mentioned as objects of Morgoth's malice, because Húrin's next exploit will be to bring ruin to Doriath. The outlaws are not a 'device', but already accounted for - and play a part in the story of Túrin when he came to Dor Lómin. Húrin does pick them up again and they are the nucleus of the force with which he goes to Nargothrond and slays Mîm and seizes the gold of the dragon.

As for 'too little action,' 'too much speech', I have re-read this quite impersonally after many years when I had practically forgotten it - the speeches are bitter and pungent and in themselves exciting. I thought the whole business from the entry of Húrin not only moving but very exciting."

The reference to Thingol and Melian arose from Professor Kilby's taking exception to their only being mentioned in one place (p. 259). The response that his remarks (written, I believe, in 1966) elicited is particularly interesting in that they show that the story of Húrin's seizing the treasure of Nargothrond was still fully in being, although my father never even approached it again. Very striking is his phrase, 'Húrin's next exploit will be to bring ruin to Doriath'.


This indicates that, at least as of 1966, Tolkien intended Hurin to be accompanied by a band of men on the journey to Nargothrond and, since he "seizes the gold of the dragon", it would certainly seem that at this point it is the full hoard, not just the Nauglamir, that is brought to Doriath.

In the absence of any further evidence of this "later story", I don't think it would be wise for us to change the story here.

[ArcusCalion]

I agree with your conclusion because, as you say, CT has provided no documentation to back up his comments in B&L and the Sil77 story, so it is clearly safer to go with the earlier story in as much as keeping the outlaws and hoard and such. However, in the current text as it exists we have provided no story of the Nauglamír's creation. Might we then take only that part from the Sil77 version while keeping the rest the same?

[Aiwendil]

But if we discount this statement by Christopher Tolkien without further evidence, then shouldn't we keep the story that the Nauglamir was not made until Thingol commissioned the Dwarves to craft the gold?

[ArcusCalion]

My bad, I didn't notice the story was already included. In the current draft, it reads thus: Many things were told of that most glorious thing. Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world but it had an enchanted power, and there was no throat so great or so slender whereon it sat not with grace and loveliness. Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax; and all such as clasped it about their necks seemed, as it hung upon their breasts, to be of goodly countenance, and women seemed most fair. Gems uncounted were there in that carcanet of gold, yet only as a setting that did prepare for its great central glory, and led the eye thereto, for amidmost hung like a little lamp of limpid fire the Silmaril of Fëanor, jewel of the Valar. Yet alas, even had that gold of Nargothrond held no evil spell still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for the Dwarves were full of bitterness, and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts.
Now however did they bear it before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of Thingol king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the Nauglamír about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. ... Should we include something along the lines of 'It was called the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves.' just so we formally name the necklace. As it is, it seems a little awkward to me.

[gondowe]

I came to this thread after have went for an updating in my structure.
I had readed this note from CT when read Beren and Luthien, but I think my mind didn't want to assume.
The main thing is to assume that there is an unpublished text that CT never showed us.
If this is assumed, so we MUST change things in our texts.

Editing: On the other hand, It would be a step back from CT in what he said in the famous note on the chapter of the ruin of Doriath in Sil77 published in WotJ that everybody knows.
(I'm going to be evil: can anybody have access to a modern edition of TWotJ, to see if that famous note was erased, of course not by CT decision, but editorial decision?)

Greetings

[Aiwendil]

Should we include something along the lines of 'It was called the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves.' just so we formally name the necklace. As it is, it seems a little awkward to me.

Oh, I see - we somehow never name the necklace when it first appears. I would have no real objection to adding something like what you suggest. Though if it is not named when first made in the LT text, perhaps we should leave it that way.

I came to this thread after have went for an updating in my structure.
I had readed this note from CT when read Beren and Luthien, but I think my mind didn't want to assume.
The main thing is to assume that there is an unpublished text that CT never showed us.
If this is assumed, so we MUST change things in our texts.

Yes, but I think the two main issues are:

1. Christopher Tolkien doesn't tell us what this presumed text says or when it dates from.
2. The statement in Beren and Luthien appears to contradict what Christopher Tolkien said in HoMe XI.

1 means that even if we wanted to follow this text, we would not know exactly how to implement it, other than lifting text directly from QS77. 2 means that at some point, either in HoMe XI or in Beren and Luthien, CT apparently made a mistaken statement about this. What he says in HoMe XI is backed up by the texts given there. The fact that we have in B&L only this one mention of a text otherwise uncited suggests that it's at least possible that CT was mistaken in his statement there.

In the end, I just think that this one contradictory statement is awfully shaky ground on which to make such a major change.

[ArcusCalion]

The original Lost Tale reads thus: These things were of Ufedhin's cunning, but the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for Tinwelint, and a belt of gold.
Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: "All is not finished," and Ufedhin made a silver crown for Gwenniel, and aided by the Dwarves contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle he made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them. Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said Ufedhin: "O Tinwelint, richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?" And he said: "Yea"; but Ufedhin said: "Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it, having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the Nauglafring, the Necklace of the Dwarves." Then again did Tinwelint doubt Ufedhin's purpose, yet did he yield the boon, an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying. This was taken up into the draft text thus: And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,’ and {Ufedhin}they made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by the Dwarves }they contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle {he}they made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them.>
§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were {more} wondrous>. RD-EX-40 <TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}they said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold {remaineth still, for} we {have husbanded it}did husband, {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would}to make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we {desire}desired that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves.{ Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the Nauglafring, the Necklace of the Dwarves.}’> The last part was removed, because according to the structure of the chapter as it was laid out, the work has at this point already been finished. However this structure is not ideal for two reasons. 1. No point is made about Thingol handing the Silmaril over to them to be added into the necklace, and even tho it is said that he sits beside them as they work on the necklace, it is in this scene presented as if it were a surprise to him. I see no real reason why we cannot keep the two stages of the treasure making present in the Lost Tales, with the Nauglamir being the second stage. Maybe like this: ... be wanting in your labor, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’> {§297 (§28a)} RD-EX-36b <TN Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think.>
§298 (§28c) RD-EX-37 <TN A golden crown they made for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], who yet had worn nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves, and a helm too most glorious they fashioned; and a sword of {dwarfen}[dwarven] steel brought from afar was hilted with bright gold and damascened in gold and silver with strange figurings wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of}[Carcharoth, the Red Maw greatest of all] wolves. RD-EX-38 {That was a more wonderful sword than any Tinwelint had seen before, and outshone the sword in Ufedhin's belt the king had coveted. These things wereof Ufedhin's cunning, but}And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,’ and {Ufedhin}they made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by the Dwarves }they contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle {he}they made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them.>
§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were {more} wondrous>. RD-EX-40 <TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}they said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it, having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would make thee a carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’ Then {again} did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}their purpose, yet did he yield the boon, an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.>
RD-EX-40.5 <TN Now after a time of rest was that last smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-36.5 <QS77 Long was their labor; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked{.}><editorial addition on the necklace.>
§300 (§28f) RD-EX-42 <TN {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world but it had a magic power, and there was no throat so great or so slender whereon it sat not with grace and loveliness. Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax; and all such as clasped it about their necks seemed, as it hung upon their breasts, to be of goodly countenance, and women seemed most fair. Gems uncounted were there in that carcanet of gold, yet only as a setting that did prepare for its great central glory, and led the eye thereto, for amidmost hung like a little lamp of limpid fire the Silmaril of Fëanor, jewel of the {Gods}[Valar]. Yet alas, even had that gold of {the Rodothlim}[Nargothrond] held no evil spell still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for the Dwarves were full of bitterness, and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts.>
§301 (§28g) RD-EX-43 <TN {Now}Then however did they bear it before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. Then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘Now, O Lord, that thou art pleased beyond thy hope, perchance thou wilt grant the craftsmen thy kingly reward, and suffer them to depart also in joy to their own lands.’> This way we keep everything necessary, while maintaining the flow better. Thoughts?

[Aiwendil]

This looks good to me. On small note is that looking again at RD-EX-36.5, I don't think the editorial addition is actually needed. It's clear from the previous paragraph that they are working on the necklace.

But I think your idea of retaining the two stages of treasure making is good, as it better retains the structure of the Lost Tale and I don't see any of the later, very brief, accounts as contradicting it.

[Findegil]

I have re-read a great deal in this thread and in the story line discussion, but it seems that we never discussed that note in BL explicitly. The fitting editing mark in the story line discussion was FD-SL-13.
Anyhow I agree with Aiwendil: the note contradicts strongly with what Christopher Tolkien had written in HoME XI and since HoME XI is rather a work of research in the textual history in comparison to BL, I wonder how serious we can take that note from BL.
For reason of comparision we might look to the Narn texts: from UT and all HoME versions it is made clear by Christopher Tolkien that farther texts are extant, so what we find then in The Children of Húrin his take at this farther texts. In that full narrative we can find passages that are clearly based on these unpublished sources. Compared to that in BL we have only compiled extracts from already published sources and some very few and some times a bit obscure editorial notes, like the one we discuss here. If the note is really based on some unpublished source, why doesn't Christopher take the opportunity to give it in full?
I am inclined to think that the note is rather based on a false memory.

About the making of the Nauglamír in Menegroth: As our story goes Thingol explicitly ask the Dwarves to make for him a necklace 'whereon to hang the Silmaril' [see the end of RD-EX-29]. In this part our story line was strictly based on Q30, therefore the two waves of smith work by the dwarves was rejected by intention. We might reinstall it, but as Thingol already gave the task of making the Nauglamír to the Dwraves I don’t think the conversation can stand as Arcus Calion gave it.
The naming of the necklace Comes in the Moment when Thingol wears it for the first time only one § later. For me that is a fitting place to give the Name. By the way, any reader will guess that name at once since the title of the chapter gives it away.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

About the making of the Nauglamír in Menegroth: As our story goes Thingol explicitly ask the Dwarves to make for him a necklace 'whereon to hang the Silmaril' [see the end of RD-EX-29]. In this part our story line was strictly based on Q30, therefore the two waves of smith work by the dwarves was rejected by intention. We might reinstall it, but as Thingol already gave the task of making the Nauglamír to the Dwraves I don’t think the conversation can stand as Arcus Calion gave it.
The naming of the necklace Comes in the Moment when Thingol wears it for the first time only one § later. For me that is a fitting place to give the Name. By the way, any reader will guess that name at once since the title of the chapter gives it away.

You're right; I didn't review our text sufficiently. I think the two phases of smithying could be retained (i.e. I don't think it's necessarily contradicted by more authoritative sources), but I don't think it has to be. So I'm fine with staying with the version we have.

[ArcusCalion]

I see the difficulty, but I still have two points.

1) I found it jarring the way the name of the necklace is introduced in our text. Can we at least say .. and he cast the {Nauglafrin}[Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves] around his throat .. This, for me, keeps the title and makes it more introductory. It's introduced this way in Lost Tales, with its translation.

2) For me the text as it stands is odd: the Dwarves present the Nauglamir as if it was a surprise, but it was essentially the driving force of Thingol's contract with them, and was there watching them make it. Why then do they have to explain that they kept a part of gold in order to make a necklace. I suppose they could simply be being ceremonial, but it seems odd to me. Perhaps I am simply reading into it too much.

[Findegil]

First a word of doubt about the matter of the making of the Nauglamír by the Dwarves long before for Finrod Felagund: In HoME XI, The Tale of the Years; Note on Chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath Christopher Tolkien starts with the following sentence:Apart from a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published, …In view of this the note in BL suggests that one such unpublished note does contain the story that the Nauglamír was made for Fleagund and that this necklace only was taken to Doriath by Húrin. If that is true, than time of writing of that note relative to the versions of the Tale of the Year would be important for us. But as we don’t have that timing, we must decide otherwise. And the only hint that I can find is what Christopher told in the rest of the Note on Chapter 22. There he himself finds it most likely that his father would have reinstalled the band of Húrin to transport the hord of Glaurung to Doriath. Therefore I still think we have taken the right decision.

Now to the matter of the second smthying, I can see the oddness of the naming, as why should it be the Necklace of the Dwarves when all the stones and specially the Silmaril are elvish? And yes the flow of Arcus Calion’s version is better. In addition if, as Aiwendil put it, the two phases of smithying are not ‘contradicted by more authoritative sources’ we actually have to retain them.
But as I mentioned the dwarves can at the end of the first phase not ask Thingol for the allowance to smith the Nauglamír as a ‘boon’, since he already ordered them to make it. Nonetheless seems it very fitting to me that the Dwarves should first show their talent on lesser works and then ask Thingol to deliver the Silmaril since now they would like to start that work he had asked for. And in that way we as well get a chance to reinstall Thingols request to be present while the dwarves made the necklace:§294 (§24b) RD-EX-29 <TN Again looked {Tinwelint}[Thingol] upon the gold, and it shone yet more alluring fair, nor ever had the sparkle of the gems seemed so brilliant>. Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth. Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems (for {much}[a part] was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril.> RD-EX-30 <QS77 For as the years passed Thingol’s thought turned unceasingly to the jewel of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it with him always, waking and sleeping.>
§295 (§26) RD-EX-31 <QS77 In those days the Dwarves still came on their journeys into Beleriand from their mansions in Ered Lindon, and passing over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] at {Sarn }Athrad[ Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}, they travelled the ancient road to Doriath; for their skill in the working of metal and stone was very great, and there was much need of their craft in the halls of Menegroth. But they came now no longer in small parties as aforetime, but in great companies well armed for their protection in the perilous lands between Aros and {Gelion}[Duin Daer] RD-EX-32 {; and they dwelt in Menegroth at such times in chambers and smithies set apart for them}. At that{ very} time great craftsmen of Nogrod RD-EX-33 {were lately come}came into Doriath{; and}[ at] the King’s { therefore summoning them }summons, and he declared to them his desire>.
§296 (§27) But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril. RD-EX-35 <TN But as yet {the}their <editorial bridge treacherous> designs{ of Ufedhin} came to nought, for in no wise would {Tinwelint}[Thingol] suffer {or him or those of} the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] to depart to Nogrod with or without {that}[any] portion of the unwrought gold that yet remained, and he said: ‘How shall it be thought that after the weariness of your{ burdened} journeys hither I should let you so soon be gone, to noise the lack of courtesy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abroad in Nogrod? Stay now awhile and rest and feast, and afterward shall ye have the gold that remains to work your pleasure on; nor shall aught of help that I or my folk may afford be wanting in your labour, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’>
§297 (§28a) RD-EX-36 <TN Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest was that{ last} smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.>
§298 (§28c) RD-EX-37 <TN A golden crown they made for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], who yet had worn nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves, and a helm too most glorious they fashioned; and a sword of {dwarfen}[dwarven] steel brought from afar was hilted with bright gold and damascened in gold and silver with strange figurings wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of}[Carcharoth, the Red Maw greatest of all] wolves. RD-EX-38 {That was a more wonderful sword than any Tinwelint had seen before, and outshone the sword in Ufedhin's belt the king had coveted. These things wereof Ufedhin's cunning, but}And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and a belt of gold. Then was the king's heart gladdened, but they said: ‘All is not finished,’ and {Ufedhin}they made a silver crown for {Gwenniel}[Melian], and{ aided by the Dwarves }they contrived slippers of silver crusted with diamonds, and the silver thereof was fashioned in delicate scales, so that it yielded as soft leather to the foot, and a girdle {he}they made too of silver blended with pale gold. Yet were those things but a tithe of their works, and no tale tells a full count of them.>
§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39b <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were more wondrous far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the {Rodothlim}[Elves of Narogthrond] wrought of old. Cups and goblets did the king behold, and some had double bowls or curious handles interlaced, and horns there were of strange shape, dishes and trenchers, flagons and ewers, and all appurtenances of a kingly feast. Candlesticks there were and sconces for the torches, and none might count the rings and armlets, the bracelets and collars, and the coronets of gold; and all these were so subtly made and so cunningly adorned that {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was glad beyond the hope of {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves].>
RD-EX-40 <TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}they said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it {having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would}to make thee {a}that carcanet thou has asked for and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have now that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’
Then{ again} did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}[their] purpose, yet did he yield the {boon}[Silmaril], an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.>
RD-EX-40.5b <TN But {they}[the Dwarves] knew nonetheless that they were prisoners, and trying the exits privily found them strongly warded.{ Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest}Thus was that last smithying begun{ in a deep place of Tinwelint’s abode ' which he caused to be set apart for their uses}, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied{, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-36.5b <QS77 Long was their labour; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked.>
§300 (§28f) RD-EX-42 <TN {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world but it had a magic power, and there was no throat so great or so slender whereon it sat not with grace and loveliness. Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax; and all such as clasped it about their necks seemed, as it hung upon their breasts, to be of goodly countenance, and women seemed most fair. Gems uncounted were there in that carcanet of gold, yet only as a setting that did prepare for its great central glory, and led the eye thereto, for amidmost hung like a little lamp of limpid fire the Silmaril of Fëanor, jewel of the {Gods}[Valar]. Yet alas, even had that gold of {the Rodothlim}[Nargothrond] held no evil spell still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for the Dwarves were full of bitterness, and all its links were twined with baleful thoughts.>
§301 (§28g) RD-EX-43 <TN Now however did they bear it before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. Then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘Now, O Lord, that thou art pleased beyond thy hope, perchance thou wilt grant the craftsmen thy kingly reward, and suffer them to depart also in joy to their own lands.’>

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

For me this is perfect! It addresses all the concerns and flows far better than the original. I only have one gripe, and it is a new one: yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were more wondrous far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the {Rodothlim}[Elves of Narogthrond] wrought of old. This for me cannot work. We have said in other places that Finrod brought the most treasure out of Valinor, and so this can hardly be compatible. Therefore I think we should remove the later half of the sentence: yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were {more} wondrous {far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the Rodothlim wrought of old}.

[Aiwendil]

This looks good to me. I also think ArcusCalion is probably right that we must remove this reference to the scantiness of the treasure of Nargothrond.

One small correction. In RD-EX-40:

thou has asked for

Should be:

thou hast asked for

[gondowe]

First a word of doubt about the matter of the making of the Nauglamír by the Dwarves long before for Finrod Felagund: In HoME XI, The Tale of the Years; Note on Chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath Christopher Tolkien starts with the following sentence:Apart from a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published, …
In view of this the note in BL suggests that one such unpublished note does contain the story that the Nauglamír was made for Fleagund and that this necklace only was taken to Doriath by Húrin. If that is true, than time of writing of that note relative to the versions of the Tale of the Year would be important for us. But as we don’t have that timing, we must decide otherwise. And the only hint that I can find is what Christopher told in the rest of the Note on Chapter 22. There he himself finds it most likely that his father would have reinstalled the band of Húrin to transport the hord of Glaurung to Doriath. Therefore I still think we have taken the right decision.



I had not re-read that sentence in TWotJ, so I want to say one thought:

I also think that the band of Húrin with the whole treasure carried to Menegroth and the making of the Nauglamir there (not in Nargothrond) is the best solution and is the one I want to follow. But, taking that CT reaffirms,in 2017, the solution taken in Sil77, I don't know if we are correct.
I mean that possibly CANON Sli77 is fixed by CT NOW.
Thougts?

Greetings

[Findegil]

I agree to both changes, the one in RD-EX-40 ‘thou has asked for’ => ‘thou hast asked for’ and the one in RD-EX-39 concerning the scanty treasure of Nargothrond. (Actually I think we discussed that one before and the reinstallation was a mistake of mine during the editing of the new passage.)

Posted by gondowe:But, taking that CT reaffirms, in 2017, that solution taken in SIL77, I don’t know if we are correct. I mean that possibly CANON Sil77 is fixed by CT NOW.Christopher Tolkien has made very clear that we will never see a substantially updated ‘Silmarillion’ from him. If that makes Sil77 to canon, than most of our work is void and useless.
That said, I can nonetheless see your argument. But I don’t see it in that way:
For me the note in BL is rather a ‘justification’ than a ‘reaffirmation’ for the version in Sil77. A reaffirmation or even confirmation would have been if Christopher Tolkien would have included the note with the Nauglamír made in Nargothrond and so on, as a component of the story as reconstructed in BL. But that is exactly what he didn’t. He rather follows his own suggestion how his father would have handled the story, that he uttered in HoME XI as far as the existing texts allow.
But alas, it is a rather complex matter. In BL Christopher Tolkien does not use (as we do in our version or he does in HoME and Sil77) short notes to reconstruct the story. The components used in BL are rather long excerpts of full texts that are minimally edited.
So some doubts remain, but I still think we have strong and just arguments for the version we created.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

, but I still think we have strong and just arguments for the version we created.

Respectfully
Findegil

Yes, so do I.
But my doubts are that possibly that note exists and the story used in Sil77 (I mean of canon Im speaking only inthis matter) I insist, is reaffirmed.
Im thinking in those people who potentially read our versions, and could be confused about an authorised modern book compared with ours.
Don´t know. Are my doubts, fears, thougts...

Greetings

[Findegil]

Maybe I was not clear enough in my last post, so I will try again:
- Yes, I believe that a note exists that contains the story of the Nauglamír made for Felagund and being the sole treasure brought from Nargothrond to Menegroth by Húrin. For easier and clearer farther reference let us name that note ‘text X’.
- Yes, I agree that the confirmed existence of ‘text X’ gives more weight to the version of the story told in the Sil77.
- And it is clear that if, we come to the conclusion, that this version of the story, is to be taken, the actual text of Sil77 is the one and only option, because it is the best representation of the content of ‘text X’ that we have.
But as we don’t have any farther information about ‘text X’ and its timing or circumstances of writing or anything else concerning it, we must base our decision about it on something else. For me it seems that, the only choice we have as measure for that judgment is the treatment of ‘text X’ by Christopher Tolkien.
So how does Christopher Tolkien treat ‘text X’:
A) Christopher Tolkien used in the years 1974-75 ‘text X’ as basis for the story in Sil77.
B) He does not give ‘text X’ in HoME. Even in HoME XI; A note on chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath (published in 1994), where a very fitting place would have been for it, he does not more than hinting very unspecific to ‘a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published’. So what he did was summarizing the story as found in Sil77, so that the features of ‘text X’ are given together with features for which ‘there is no authority whatever in my father's [JRR Tolkien’s] own writings’.
C) He does mention its existence and content of ‘text X’ in the footnote in BL (published 2017), but does not give it in full nor base the story told in that book on its content.
As can be expected B) gives some background information on A):
b1) Christopher Tolkien speculates that JRR Tolkien ‘ would have reintroduced the outlaws from the old Tales (II.113-15, 222-3) as the bearers of the treasure’. Which means, that Christopher Tolkien thinks that his father would not have used the content of ‘text X’ for his ‘final’ story. This speculations is backed up by late (1966) writings concerned with The Wanderings of Húrin.
b2) Christopher Tolkien confirms that there had been much ‘experimentation among alternative conceptions’ and that the final text of Sil77 ‘owes much to my [Christopher Tolkien’s] discussions with him [Guy Gavriel Kay]’. Guy Gavriel Kay was for sure NOT onboard of these discussions due to his special knowledge about the textual history of the story or his good judgments about what JRR Tolkien would have done – for such matters Christopher Tolkien was for sure the better judge. Mr. Kay told us in an interview with The Guardian that Christopher Tolkien ‘saw the editing process in the classic ‘senior academic working with the bright young graduate student’ way, which is the template for so much academic work.’ Nonetheless since Mr. Kay became later a fantasy author, his input was most probably on the ‘literary value’ of the ‘alternative conceptions’.
In the end C) Indeed changes some possible interpretations of B) and has to be interpreted in itself:
c1) Since C) does confirm the existence of ‘text X’ the first major criticism utter in B) that, the story in Sil77 ‘is fundamentally changed, to a form for which in certain essential features there is no authority whatever in my father's [JRR Tolkien’s] own writings’, does not apply to the features told in ‘text X’ (Nauglamír made for Felagund in Nargothrond, Nauglamír being the sole treasure brought to Menegroth by Húrin). (As we discussed that matter first before the publication of BL, I think we all based on the second part of B) were under the impression that there was no ‘text X’ in existence.)
c2) As well as the first criticism (see c1)) the last, that with creating the story as given in Sill77 he was ‘far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function’, does not apply to the features of ‘text X’, since C) does confirm the existence of ‘text X’ and choosing between alternative texts is the function of an editor.
c3) In BL Christopher Tolkien for the first time edits the presented story as ‘history in sequence’ as he named it. That makes the text together with the note fully ambivalent of what was the ‘true’ story.

All that ‘facts’ collected, what do I make out of it?
The clear statement of C) is that using the text of Sil77 in the matter of the Nauglamír and what part of the Nargothrond treasure came to Doriath is an reasonable option for us (which it had not been before). But in b1) I see a hint that ‘text X’ was older than 1966, otherwise the features of ‘text X’ would have been a way out of the difficulties that the story as told in Q30 represent. As we do with writings of JRR Tolkien, we as well should do with such of Christopher Tolkien: His knowledge about the texts of his farther would have become greater with longer studying time. Therefore B) does have much more weight for me than A). Specially

[gondowe]

Findegil, Thank you for your detailed analysis of the matter. My lack of time and not having access to my original books prevents me from analyzing it correctly, although I could never expose it in the same way that you did.
But in the end, in summary, is what I think.
The only thing that bothers me is, as I said, the mention of CT in BT of the Sil77 decision. Obviously I would have liked that CT had remade the Silmarillion in the same way that we did but unfortunately it was not like that. I do not know if his heirs will ever do it (or even be done, waiting for the appropriate time for publication), (I am completely sure that our work never went unnoticed by the Tolkien Estate and CT).
Anyway, I agree with our common decision.
Now, considering your last sentence, the only thing we could do is decide if the Nauglamír was done or not for Felagund.
Now I'm not, as I said, (nor was I, nor will I be in the future unfortunately, because I also have a problem in the eyes that is going over and I do not know how I will finish in the next few years), in conditions to analyze it by my same.

Thank you and Greetings

[Findegil]

I started this posting some time before the death of Christopher Tolkien. But as it has happened now, this seems to be a kind of showing respect to him and his work; even so I am sure that we all have had that before.
Coming back to the matter of the Nauglamír made for Finrod. I have reread all the text we have and our discussions. And looking at it with grater distance, this might be again a case where we were driven away from the ture solution by the fact that our editing has a lot of very fine details, which would a shame to be lost. The result I came to now mihgt be a relieve for some (lindil are you still with us) and a no go for others. Therefore as always, please feel free to disagree with me.
I will use my references from posting #64:
‘text X’: A note containing the story of the Nauglamír made for Finrod and being the sole treasure brought by Húrin to Menegroth.
A) Christopher Tolkiens treatment of the Story in Sil77.
B) Christopher Tolkiens not giving us ‘text X’ in HoME and his A note on chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath.
C) The footnote from B&L.

For all we know ‘text X’ does only stat two things:
1. The Nauglamir was made for Felagund by Dwarves long before the Fall of Doriath
2. The Nauglamír was the sole treasure that [b]Húrin brought from Nargothrond and gave to Thingol.
That said ‘text X’ does not contradict the following features of other sources:
- Húrin had a band of followers, when he came to Nargothrond.
- The followers took the complete horad from Nargothrond.
- Húrin followers died by querrals on the way.

Of course it is ture as Christopher Tolkien said that it ruines the gesture if Húrin must fetch Thingols help to get the treasure to Menegroth with which he then tries to humiliate Thingol. And to reinstall the battle between Húrins men and Thingols Elves is as well out of question. But what if ‘text X’ was Tolkiens way out of this dilema:
Húrin took only the Nauglamír as it was the single most valuable pice, but his men took the complete treasure from Nargothrond. But then they where killed by quarrels on the way.
Lets set that part out first:§273 (§3b) RD-EX-08 <TT Now therefore when those {Elves}[Men] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Orodreth], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?’>
§3c (§274) RD-EX-09 <QS77 But Húrin said: 'Who are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'
§275 (§4a) QS77 Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and before the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkhizdīn. I have but returned to take what is mine; for I am the last of my people.'
RD-EX-08b<TT But {Úrin}[Húrin] answered: 'We come to take what is not thine.' Then said {that dwarf, and his name was }Mîm: 'O RD-EX-09.1{Úrin}, little did I think to{ see thee,} a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mîm{ the fatherless}, and depart, touching not this gold no more than were it venomous fires. For has not {Glorund}[Glaurung] lain long years upon it, and the evil of the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth] is on it, and no good can it bring to Man or Elf, but I, only I, can ward it, Mîm the dwarf, and by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself.'
§276 (§4d) TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that RD-EX-09.2{he bid them seize it all, and }Mîm {stood by and watched, and he }broke forth into terrible and evil curses.
§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: ‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life. RD-EX-11.5c <QS77 Then you shall enjoy your inheritance no longer,{' said Húrin; '}for I am Húrin son of Galdor, returned out of Angband, and my son was Túrin Turambar, whom you have not forgotten; and he it was that slew Glaurung the Dragon, who wasted these halls where now you sit; and not unknown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'
Then Mîm in great fear besought Húrin to take what he would, but to spare his life; but Húrin gave no heed to his prayer, and slew him there before the doors of Nargothrond.>
§278 (§6) But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed. RD-EX-11.51b<TT
><Lay of the Children of Húrin The dawn over {Doriath}[Narog] __ dimly kindled {695}
saw {Blodrin Bor's son}[traitorous Mîm] __ by a {beech}[tree] standing
with throat thriléd __ by a thrusting arrow,
whose shaven shaft, __ shod with {poison}[iron],
and feather-wingéd, __ was fast in the {tree}[beech]. [5]
He bargained {the blood __ of his brothers} for gold [__ the blood of his guests] {700}
this his meed meted - __ in the mirk at {random}[Narog];
by {an orc-}[a cruel ]arrow __ his {oath}[curse] came home.>
RD-EX-11.52<QS77 Then {he}Húrin entered in, and stayed a while in that dreadful place, where the treasures of Valinor lay strewn upon the floors in darkness and decay; but it is told that when Húrin came forth from the wreck of Nargothrond and stood again beneath the sky he bore with him out of all that great hoard but one thing only.>
RD-EX-11.53 <TT Then {Úrin wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he}[Húrin] bid {them}his men seize {it }all the treasure of Nargothrond.>
RD-EX-24b TN Now such mighty heaps of gold have never since been gathered in one place; and some thereof was wrought to cups, to basons, and to dishes, and hilts there were for swords, and scabbards, and sheaths for daggers; but RD-EX-26 {the most}a part was of red gold unwrought lying in masses and in bars. The value of that hoard no man could count, for amid the gold lay many gems, and these were very beautiful to look upon, for RD-EX-27 {the fathers of the Rodothlim}[the people of Finarfin] had brought with them out of Valinor a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.>
RD-EX-11.54<§279 TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and they murmured at that, but he said: ‘Are ye become as the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth], that would lie and wallow in gold and seek no other joy? A sweeter life shall ye have in the court of that king of greed, an ye bear such treasury to him, than all the gold of Valinor can get you in the empty woods.’
§280 (§9) TT Now his heart was bitter against {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and he desired to have a vengeance on him, as may be seen. So great was that hoard that great though {Úrin}[Húrin]'s company might be scarce could they bear it to the caves of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king, and some 'tis said was left behind and {some}[much] was lost upon the way, and evil has followed its finders for ever.> (§8) RD-SL-05b {And}For the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went {unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves}on.
Comments on the changes:
RD-EX-08b: I adde this marker only for clearness of reference.
RD-EX-09.1: I have skipt the reference to Húrin in Mîm’s answer. How could Mîm idntify Húrin as up to that point he did not name himself. And if he did why would he fear for his life at once?
RD-EX-09.2: Okay, here the real changes begin. I moved the taking of the treasure to a later point to give Húrin a chance to go in alone and catch the Nauglamír, so it is for the worth of Húrins men that made Mîm start his cursing.
RD-EX-11.5c: At this point only, when he had launched his attaked Mîm that Húrin does reveal his identiy to Mîm.
RD-EX-11.51b: I think this slow dying of Mîm we have already discussed.
RD-EX-11.52: Now Húrin goes in alone to catch the Nauglamír. This is not necessarly the story as told in ’Text X’ but it is the best text that we can use.
RD-EX-11.53: This addition is necessary to tell that in the end the hoard was taken by Húrins men.
RD-EX-24b, RD-EX-26 & RD-EX-27: I moved this from the point where in the Lost Tales the treasure was described in Menegroth to here, because otherwise we have no description of the hoard left in our story.
RD-EX-11.54: I inserted that marker only for clearness of reference with the new additions. And I changed ‘some was lost’ to ‘much was lost’ since now only the Nauglamír that Húrin carried himself came in the end to Menegroth.
RD-SL-05b: The change form ‘And’ to ‘For’ at the beginning makes this to an explaintion why much of the treasure was lost. And at the end I changed the text so that Húrin does not begged help for the transport but goes to Menegroth alone and with only what he had chosen as specially precious and ‘usefull’ for his plan.

As Húrins men were killed on the way, so the hoard was lost. So in the end only Húrin came to Menegroth and he carried only the Nauglamír, This of course makes some changes necessary in the farther text: RD-EX-11.5 <WH, Note 57
Húrin in Doriath
>§281 (§10a) RD-SL-06b <TT Yet in the end {that laden host}Húrin alone came to the {bridge before the doors}, and being asked by the guards {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Say to the king that {Úrin}[Húrin] the Steadfast is come bearing gifts{,’ and}.’ And when this was done{.}>, <[b]Year 502 of The Grey Annals, WH Húrin {is}was admitted in pity.>
§282 (§10b) RD-EX-12b <TT {Then Úrin let bear all that magnificence before the king, but it was hidden in sacks or shut in boxes of rough wood; and Tinwelint}[Thingol] greeted {Úrin}[Húrin] with joy and with amaze and bid him thrice welcome, and he and all his court arose in honour of that lord of Men; but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s heart was blind by reason of his tormented years and of the lies of {Melko}[Morgoth], and he said: ‘Nay, O King, I do not desire to hear such words - but say only, where is {Mavin}[Morwen] my wife, and knowest thou what death did {Nienóri}[Niënor] my daughter die?’>
§283 (§11) RD-EX-13 <QS77 Well{well} did {he}[Thingol] understand Húrin's intent; but being filled with pity he restrained his wrath, and endured Húrin's scorn,> RD-EX-13.5 <Q30 and long he bore with Húrin.> RD-EX-14b <TT Then did {Úrin}[Húrin] fiercely tell that tale, and the king and all his folk about him hid their faces for great ruth, but {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Nay, had you such a heart as have the least of Men, never would they have been lost; but lo, I bring you now a payment in full for the troubles of your puny band that went against {Glorund}[Glaurung] the drake, and deserting gave up my dear ones to his power. Gaze, O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], sweetly on my {gifts}gift, for methinks the lustre of gold is all your heart contains.’>
RD-EX-17b <QS77 Húrin {made no answer to the King, but }drew forth from beneath his cloak that one thing which he had taken with him out of Nargothrond; and that was no lesser treasure than the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, that was made for Finrod Felagund long years before by the craftsmen of Nogrod and Belegost, most famed of all their works in the Elder Days, and prized by Finrod while he lived above all the treasures of Nargothrond. And Húrin cast it at the feet of Thingol with wild and bitter words.
‘Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the Nauglamír, whose name is known to many among Elves and Men, RD-EX-15b <TT bought by the death of {Nienóri}[Niënor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm.>{and} And I bring it to thee out of the darkness of Nargothrond, where Finrod thy kinsman left it behind him when he set forth with Beren son of Barahir to fulfil the errand of Thingol of Doriath! RD-EX-15c <TT Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.'>
§285 (§15) Yet Thingol would not take the RD-EX-17.5{hoard, and long he bore with Húrin}necklace; but now {Húrin scorned him,}RD-EX-18 <TT{Then} were {Úrin}[Húrin]'s words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure, and he said: ‘What meanest thou, child of Men, and wherefore upbraidest thou me? Long did I foster thy son and forgave him the evil of his deeds, and afterward thy wife I succoured, giving way against my counsel to her wild desires. {Melko}[Morgoth] it is that hates thee and not I. Yet what is it to me - and wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalië? Lo! in {Palisor}[Cuiviénen] my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke. Get thee gone, O {Úrin}[Húrin], for {Melko}[Morgoth] hath bewitched thee, and take thy riches with thee’ - but he forebore to slay or to bind {Úrin}[Húrin] in spells, remembering his ancient valiance in the Eldar's cause.>
§286 (§16) RD-SL-07 {and wandered forth in quest of Morwen his wife, but it is not said that he found her ever upon the earth;}<QS77 {then he}Then Húrin turned away, and passed out from the Thousand Caves, and all that saw him fell back before his face; and none sought to withstand his going, nor did any know whither he went>; {and}but some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men. RD-EX-19 But<TT his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.>
§287 (§17a) RD-EX-20b <TN {'Behold then,' said Ailios, 'in}In great grief gazed the king upon {Úrin}[Húrin] as he left the hall, and he was weary for the evil of {Melko}[Morgoth] that thus deceived all hearts; yet tells the tale that so potent were the spells that Mîm {the fatherless }had woven about that dragon hoard that, even as {it}the Nauglamír lay upon the floor of the king's halls shining strangely in the light of the torches that burnt there, already were all who looked upon it touched by its subtle evil.>
RD-SL-06b: Here I changed ‘the laden host’ to ‘Húrin alone’.
RD-EX-12b: Here Again Húrins men are skipt.
RD-EX-14b: At the end of this § we have to change ‘gifts’ to the singular ‘gift’ of the Nauglamír.
RD-EX-16: Is gone since it was a change in a part that spoke about Húrins men.
RD-EX-17b: I tooke more of Sil77 as it is here the best representation oft he content of ‘text X‘.
RD-EX-15b & RD-EX-15c: These two pessages from TT I have introduced into the Sil77passage.
RD-EX-17.5: Of course this reference to the horad must be changed to the necklace alone.
RD-EX-20b: Here again we have to change the reference. I found ‘that horad’ is no longer sufficient as now only the necklace is actually present.
RD-SL-08 to RD-SL-10: All the rest of this sub-cahpter dealt with Húrins men and is therefore gone.

In the Rest of the chapter only smaller references must be changed:[b]RD-EX-21 <WH
The Nauglamír
Necklace of the Dwarves
>§291 (§22) RD-EX-22b <TN Now came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this {gold}necklace, for my heart tells me it is RD-EX-23b trebly cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath, and cursed by {thy}his lieges' blood that moistens it, and the death of those they slew; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’
§292 (§23) RD-EX-24b TN Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, the king was minded to hearken, and he bade {gather it up and }cast it into the stream before the gates. Yet even so he might not shake off its spell, and he said to himself: ‘First will I gaze my last upon its loveliness ere I fling it from me for ever.’ Therefore he let wash it clean of its stains of blood in clear waters, and display it before him.>
...
§294 (§24b) RD-EX-29b <TN Again looked {Tinwelint}[Thingol] upon the gold, and it shone yet more alluring fair, nor ever had the sparkle of the gems seemed so brilliant>. Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon {gold}[hoard] began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth. Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the {gold and silver and the gems (for much was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a }marvellous necklace of great beauty {they should make, whereon }to hang the Silmaril theron.> RD-EX-30 <QS77 For as the years passed Thingol’s thought turned unceasingly to the jewel of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it with him always, waking and sleeping.>
...
§296 (§27) But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril. RD-EX-35b <TN But as yet {the}their <editorial bridge treacherous> designs{ of Ufedhin} came to nought, for in no wise would {Tinwelint}[Thingol] suffer {or him or those of} the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] to depart to Nogrod with or without {that portion of the unwrought gold that yet remained}the Necklace and the Stone, and he said: ‘How shall it be thought that after the weariness of your{ burdened} journeys hither I should let you so soon be gone, to noise the lack of courtesy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abroad in Nogrod? Stay now awhile and rest and feast, and afterward shall ye have the {gold that remains}Nauglamír and the Silmaril to work your pleasure on; nor shall aught of help that I or my folk may afford be wanting in your labour, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’>
§297 (§28a) RD-EX-36b <TN But {they}[the Dwarves] knew nonetheless that they were prisoners, and trying the exits privily found them strongly warded. Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest{ was that last smithying begun in a deep place of Tinwelint's abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-40b <TN {Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then} said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, {dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but Ufedhin said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this:} we would {make}remake thee {a}[that] carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’
Then{ again} did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}[their] purpose, yet did he yield the {boon}[Silmaril], an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.>
RD-EX-40.5c <TN {Now after a time of rest}Thus was that {last }smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]’s abode ' which he caused to be set apart for their uses, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied{, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-36.5b <QS77 Long was their labour; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked.>
...
...
...
§303 (§29) RD-EX-46b <TN Then were the Dwarves paid their reward like common smiths of bronze and iron,> and bitter words grew between them[ and Thingol].<QS77 {;but}And the Dwarves in that moment {withheld it from him, and }demanded that he yield {it}[the Nauglamír] up to them, saying: ‘By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the Nauglamír, that was made by our fathers for Finrod Felagund who is dead? It has come to him but by the hand of Húrin the Man of Dor-lómin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.’ But Thingol perceived their hearts, and saw well that desiring the Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent; and in his wrath and pride he gave no heed to his peril, but spoke to them in scorn, saying:> RD-EX-47 <TN ‘Nay then, ...
...
...
...
§322 (§46d) <TN Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Duin Daer], and their array was thus: first a number of unladen Dwarves most fully armed, and amidmost the great company of those that bore the treasury of RD-EX-74.5{Glorund}[Thingol], and many a fair thing beside that they had haled from {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls; and behind these was Naugladur{, and he bestrode Tinwelint's horse, and a strange figure did he seem, for the legs of the Dwarves are short and crooked, but two Dwarves led that horse for it went not willingly and it was laden with spoil}. But behind {these}him came again a mass of armed men but little laden; and in this array they sought to cross {Sarnathrod}[Athrod Daer] on their day of doom.>
...
...
...
§329 (§51a) <TN Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it - and beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained undying glory by his deed; and he said: ‘Never have mine eyes beheld thee O Lamp of {Faery}[Fëanor] burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold and gems and the magic of the Dwarves’; and that necklace he caused to be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its power, but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand].> RD-SL-27 <QS77 And when all was finished the treasure of Doriath was drowned in the River Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, {Rathlóriel}[Rathmallen], the Goldenbed.>
§330 (§51b) RD-EX-79b <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on {for ever} above the drowned hoard{ of Glorund, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now {is}was the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none {seek}sought the treasure that {it}[Ascar] {guards}guarded [near by] nor {dare}dared ever to cross the{ magic} stream [of Duin Daer] at that enchanted place.
...
...
...
§334 (§51f) Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon RD-EX-81.5{the treasure and }upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned {indeed }in the river {Ascar, and named it anew} {Rathlóriel}[Rathmallen], Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.} <moved from above, and{ that} for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the {Gods}[Valar], and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.>
RD-EX-22b: I changed ‘gold’ to ‘necklace’ so that might be a bit over down here, since the necklace is of gold.
RD-EX-24b: The necklace is nothing to be gathered up.
RD-EX-29b: This must be changed for we have no longer any unwrought gold, so that the only tasked for the Dwarves is the re-fashioning of the necklace.
RD-EX-35b: Again there is no unwrought gold, so the plan of the dwarves only metioned implicit here would have been to feign that they would do the work in Nogrod and return with the finished product.
RD-EX-36b: In the beginning I put in a bit more of this passage in, since it seems clear that the dwarves are forced by Thingol to remain in Menegroth.
RD-EX-37 to RD-EX-39: This was the first smithing of the unwrought gold from the dragon hoard and the description of its results. It must go in the new story.
RD-EX-36b & RD-EX-40b: As these came together now we have to adapt the end and the begining accordingly.
RD-EX-40.5c: There is no longer a first smithying, so this one can nolonger becalled the last.
RD-EX-46b: In the version with the Nauglamir made for Thingol we had to change the passage from Sil77, but now that is no longer necessary.
RD-EX-74.5: What the Dwarves carry is no longer the hoard of Glaurung but the plunder of Menegroth.
RD-SL-27: I did not change this, since we already used the phrase from Sil77 unchanged.
RD-EX-79b: Again it is no longer the hoard of Glaurung, but here the change is simply to remove Glaurung since the reference is clear enough.
RD-EX-81.5: The treasure that is drowned in the River is no longer the accursed hoard of Glaurung so we have to change the reference here to the Nauglamír alone and in the next sentence the ‘indeed’ makes no longer any sense.

Again, please feel free to disagree with me. The first and foremost point for the discussion should be if my idea of combining the Nauglamír made for Finrod and carried all the way from Nargothrond to Menegroth by Húrin himself and the story of his companions periching by feuds on the way together with consequent loss of Glaurungs hoard seems plausible.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello Findegil. Now I come to this thread and after so long I am going to answer about what I think and what I always worry about. I think the solution is correct based on what you had explained in detail above. It is a wording similar to the one I developed after the discussion. But in the meantime the famous text "lost" for the public in an auction "Concernig .... The Hoard" enclosed by him in a 1964 letter to Eileen Elgar (together with Kinship of the Half-elven) came to mind. According to Cristina Scull the story closely follows Q30 with some differences: for instance, before beginning work on the treasure, the dwarves agree to accept a payment of a tenth of the unwrought metals. Thingol, however, is still killed outside Menegroth, with Tolkien giving two possible reasons why the dwarves were able to pass the Girdle of Melian.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Concerning_..._%27The_Hoard%27

Have you thought about this?

Greetings

[Findegil]

Hi gondowe,

I did not know of Concerning ... 'The Hoard'. Therefore many thanks for point this text out to me. The small info we have about its content does change a lot.

At least it renders my last idea, about Hurin carrying the Nauglamir while his band perishes and so left the Horad of Nargothrond behind use less.

The 'two possible reasons why the dwarves were able to pass the Girdle of Melian' might or moght not be related to the note in which Thingol himself goes beyond and is killed outside. Too sad we don't have that text in full. I have reread some of our editings and consider farther the implications of what we know about Concerning ... 'The Hoard'.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Yes. It's a pity the private text. Alas!!! Could its owner be less selfish? We only ask for a copy !!!!
In any case I think it is the most prudent thing to do as long as this text does not come to light to remain with the prudent option of having Húrin take only the Nauglamir to Thingol while his outlaws are killed in quarrels over the rest of the Hoard. And make 'no story tells how Thingol got out of the Girdle of Melian', in my humble opinion.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Posted by gondowe:... outlaws are killed in quarrels over the rest of the Hoard.This is in my view problematic. We have now a statement from Concerning ... 'The Hoard' that at least a considerable part of the unwrought metalls from Nargothrond reached Menegroth, since the Dwarves agreed that only a tenth from that should be their payment. So if, as Christina Scull told as, Concerning ... 'The Hoard' follows Q30, then we have their again the Húrin destroying his own gesture by fetching help from Thingol to carry the Hoard.

Concerning ... 'The Hoard' has block the way out of that dilema that I imagined. I could invent a clever solution in which Hurin only comes alone and with the Nauglamir after his man have died in quarrels. Seenig that the necklace could only come from the Hoard, adventures from Doriath could go in search for the Hoard, find it and carry it to Menegroth. But inventing is not the way we work here.
We could imaging, that Hurin when he first came tto the boarder, did not go to Thingol but recived help from the boarder-wardens. But that still is inventing a fact in Middle-Earth without a source from Tolkien.

Thereare in my view two question we have to answer:
A. I think we are left with the choice to let Hurin get help from Thingol and if that destroyes the gesture, so what? It was Tolkiens solution not ours. Or we can stay with the solution we found in the first instance: that the Outlaws came to Menegroth but left in peace with part of the Hoard.

B. In both cases we could still let Hurin chose a pre existing Nauglamir as a special part, that he carried hinself and used effectfully in Menegroth. And I think this is actually the second question we have to answer: When and for whom was the Nauglamir wrought?

For A I tend more and more to following Q30 since Concerning ... 'The Hoard' seems to support that version.

For B I think that Text X that we agreed exists does lead us to the Nauglamir beeing made originally for Felagund.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

What you're saying's correct. You cannot invent anything. And we must be frustated with this lack of an important text. But what I mean is that as long as we don't have the text of Concerning .... The Hoard we should focus on what we do have. And the last thing would be the very authoritative idea (even knowing that CT did not know the text of C .. TH when he composed Sil77) published by CT in Sil77 based on Note X. And C. Scull's observation that in general lines follow the Q30 can be in very general lines.
I would like to have the opinion of more people about it.
In any case I'll rethink again to preserve the Nauglamir made first for Finrod and the bringing of the full Hoard to Menegroth.

Greetings

[Arvegil145]

But...ladies and gentlemen, we DO have "Concerning... 'The Hoard'"!

That is, as of last month from an auction - it was sold for c. 150,000$ from what I've heard. The auction website has actually posted images of the manuscripts, and a brave soul has already attempted to tackle the mess that is Tolkien's handwriting!

I will link both the auction website and the transcript here, and oh boy does it not disappoint!

The manuscript images: https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/j-r-r-tolkien-genealogy-chart-and-autograph-manuscript-kinship-of-the-half-elven-and-concerningthe-h/a/6258-42010.s?ic5=CatalogHome-MostPopular-112917

The transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19bpWIzJcXdAmWsmo06t6lqmpICUyc9C9SIISmd8laFM/edit

[Huinesoron]

But...ladies and gentlemen, we DO have "Concerning... 'The Hoard'"!

That is, as of last month from an auction - it was sold for c. 150,000$ from what I've heard. The auction website has actually posted images of the manuscripts, and a brave soul has already attempted to tackle the mess that is Tolkien's handwriting!

I will link both the auction website and the transcript here, and oh boy does it not disappoint!

The manuscript images: https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/j-r-r-tolkien-genealogy-chart-and-autograph-manuscript-kinship-of-the-half-elven-and-concerningthe-h/a/6258-42010.s?ic5=CatalogHome-MostPopular-112917

The transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19bpWIzJcXdAmWsmo06t6lqmpICUyc9C9SIISmd8laFM/edit

Oh wow! That's a really impressive find, and a fascinating resolution to the Girdle Problem. I feel like your discovery deserves a thread up in Books for more general discussion; do you want to start one, or do you mind if I do so?

hS

[Arvegil145]

Oh wow! That's a really impressive find, and a fascinating resolution to the Girdle Problem. I feel like your discovery deserves a thread up in Books for more general discussion; do you want to start one, or do you mind if I do so?

hS

Sure, make a thread if you want - I'm not really active on the forum anyway, I just remembered this project and wanted to share my find (which I stumbled upon on r/tolkienfans).

[Findegil]

Okay, so in view of what is found in the actual text of Concerning ... 'The Hoard', it seems we sought all the time an answer for the wrong question: The question is not, how to get rid of the Outlaws? It is rather how to get rid of the constant fighting in Menegroth?

And only Tolkiens first answer was to get rid of the Outlaws and then he changed his mind (because what he had done destroyed the gesture of Húrin) and skipt the fight between the Dwarven smiths and the Elves. And by that making the Dwarves even more respectable and Thingol even more foolish and spell-driven. It is a pity Christopher Tolkien did not know that text when he published Sill77; HoME and probably B&L.

And the next arcaine question is how the dating of Concerning ... 'The Hoard' is relative to Text X.

However that short text will bring a lot of change in this chapter and some details for others. Maybe it can wake some new intrest in this now very long resting project!

Respectfully,
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello everyone. I already explained in The Books section that regarding the manuscript, I have doubts about its dating.
The doubt arises mainly from the mention of the Sons of the Valar, in 1964.

Either way, this changes the story treatment of The Ruin of Doriath. Mainly regarding the outlaws and Thingol's death.
But we continue, or at least I continue, with the doubt of who the Nauglamir was made for, Thingol or Finrod. We continue with the question of text X (or the conversation with his father X). That could have been written or made after 1964.
My initial proposal would be to adopt the plot line of C..TH, adapting the BoLT text, but keeping the authorship of the Nauglamir for Finrod. I would, without any other evidence, to give CT the credibility it deserves.
What is your opinion?

Greetings

[Findegil]

We have seen JRR Tolkien before using phrases like 'the Sons of the Valar' long after he had abonded them in other texts. But anyway, what would that change in our weighing of the text? It is still by fare the latest text we have, beside some snipets here and there, like Text X.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Yes. Of course that doesn't matter at all for our purposes. It was just a question to consider.
In any case, what do you think of my proposition, keeping the Nauglamír for Finrod, having no other evidence than the credibility of CT, and assuming that text X is after 1964, which may well be possible.
Greetings

[Findegil]

In the books forum I did agree rather to the concept that Text X is the logical 'end point' of cutting out the outlaws and their fight in Menegroth and that most likly, when JRR Tolkien, while writing Wanderings of Húrin discovered, that he needed the Outlaws, the concept of cutting out the fight of the dwarfish simths makes the pre-history of the Nauglamir unneseccary.

But I am hesitating to rule out the possibility that the Nauglamir made for Finrod had some completly diffrent background and should therefore be combined with the storyline of Concerning ... 'The Hoard'.
So much that my first attemp at an edited text version was exactly for that combination. But I don't think I will push that farther. To skip Text X as either earlier then Concerning ... 'The Hoard' or a proposed change unworkable for us, is most proberbly the 'cannonically' saver way.

It would be very good to have opinnions of some other members on that matter. I am very much a 'combiner' and that might not be the best approach in this complex.

On another point: Why do you think Concerning ... 'The Hoard' does change the storyline in regard to the death of Thingol? Okay, I see that Doriath is now open to an attack while Thingol is alive, so the timing might be different. And I agree that Concerning ... 'The Hoard' suggest that Thingol is killed after Menegroth was taken. But I do not see that it is necessarily within Menegroth that Thingol is killed. Concerning ... 'The Hoard' is equally to all other sources later then TN just a very short summary. Does any of these text ruleout the Hunt as a feature of the detailed story? I don't think so. And if we compair TN and Concerning ... 'The Hoard' then in both we have the sequence of
- dwarf-host enters Doriath
- Menegroth is taken
- Thingol is killed

Even if Concerning ... 'The Hoard' would strongly suggest that Thingol died within Menegroth (which it does not, in my oppinion), since we have nothing beside that over short statement, I would consider this a change unworkable for us.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Hopping in to offer my humble opinion on the matter.

I agree with Fin about the death of Thingol. Concerning the Hoard is a short summary in comparison to TN, and the more detailed version of events there does not necessarily contradict this text.

With regard to the Nauglamir and the outlaws, I am also a combiner by nature. Since the Nauglamir's origin as made for Finrod by the dwarves is from a relatively unknown source, I think we cannot discount Christopher Tolkien's use of that in the published Silmarillion. To me it seems a minor change, and one easily resolved. Both Concerning the Hoard and the published Silm version of the story have the Dwarves taking the Nauglamir as payment for their unpaid labor, since it was made by them. The only difference is the timing. In the published Silm, it was made by them for Finrod long ago, while in Concerning the Hoard it was made for Thingol just recently. I think with the source of the Finrod story somewhat unknown, we should defer to it as likely authoritative, and since it requires such small modification to the material, I think it is the best route.

[gondowe]

Okay. The only difference I was referring to about Thingol's death was that he should be forced or tricked out of the Girdle. Now we can "kill him" inside him, although also in the woods, despite the fact that "His halls were violated and he himself slain" is said.

Either way, I find it hard to handle the Girdle's loss of power explanation. But it is true that we can use to explain (sorry this is a copy/paste of yours old:

§311 (§37b) RD-EX-60 Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow}grew faint in the deep forest, {but }{Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sat in her bower {and}but foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid{, Nielthi}: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But {Nielthi}the Elfmaid said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’

In relation to what Arcuscalion says, therefore, my proposal was to combine the two concepts. The outlaws carrying the treasure, and Húrin carrying only the Nauglamír. Both throwing them at Thingol's feet and the Dwarves remaking the necklace.
This follows the TN line of time but differs in only one (but important thing, the remaking, not the making of the Nauglamír.

Sorry again, something like:

§279 (§8) RD-SL-05 {And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.}<TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin]
(From Sil77) entered in, and stayed a while in that dreadful place, where the treasures of Valinor lay strewn upon the floors in darkness and decay; but it is told that when Húrin
came forth from the wreck of Nargothrond and stood again beneath the sky he bore with him out of all that great hoard but one thing only. and that was no lesser treasure than the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, that was made for Finrod Felagund long years before by the craftsmen of Nogrod and Belegost, most famed of all their works in the Elder Days, and prized by Finrod while he lived above all the treasures of Nargothrond.

[And then ]caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and they murmured at that, but he said: ‘Are ye become as the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth], that would lie and wallow in gold and seek no other joy? A sweeter life shall ye have in the court of that king of greed, an ye bear such treasury to him, than all the gold of Valinor can get you in the empty woods.’
…
§284 (§12) Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, RD-EX-15 <TT uncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s men understood now what was forward and RD-EX-16 <editorial addition many> were little pleased. RD-EX-17 <QS77
(From Sil77) And Húrin cast {it} the Nauglamír at the feet of Thingol with wild and bitter words.
'Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the Nauglamír, whose name is known to many among Elves and Men; and I bring it to thee out of the darkness of Nargothrond, where Finrod thy kinsman left it behind him when he set forth with Beren son of Barahir to fulfil the errand of Thingol of Doriath!'
And Húrin{and he} reproached the {Elfking}[Elvenking] with wild and bitter words. ‘Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the {Nauglamír}[the hoard of Glaurung], whose {name}[fame] is known to many among Elves and Men,> bought by the death of {Nienóri}[Niënor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.'>

Could that be an "overstepping the bounds of the editorial function"?

By the way, I am also a very much combiner.

Greetings

[Findegil]

With Arvegil145 posting his find of Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ we have to rethink many of our decisions. The greatest im pact has JRR Tolkiens removel of the fight of the Dwarvish smiths after they finished their work in Menegroth. With that Tolkien opened for him self the way back to the fight of the Húrin’s Outlaws against the Thanes of Thingol in Menegroth. As the fate of the outlaws was one of our main issues, this new source gives us a kind of a perfect solution.
But there remain some issues, nonetheless. I will give out first some arguments sorted by our editing marks if a number is missing here it means the decision take of old can stay:
First a general change: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ specifies that the Nauglamír was made from silver not from gold. I caried that change throught any mention of material in direct connection to the necklace.
RD-SL-03.5: This is not new but an undecided issue: Was the Nauglamír made for Finrod Fealgund and brought to Menegroth by Húrin as a special item of the hoard and there the Dwarves ‘only’ put it together with the Silmaril or was it made by the Dwarves in Menegroth for Thingol specially as a framework for his Silamril? For me the text of Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does play down the significance of the Silmaril in favor of the dragon-sickness and / or the curse of Mîm. The making of the “Neckless of the Dwarves” is only mentioned in passing, it is neither the object for which Thingol call upon the Dwarves nor in anyway the reason for the strife between Thingol and Dwarves. As we do not know if Text X was earlier or later than Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ we might follow a kind of ‘line of development’:
- In Q30 the Nauglamír is Thingol’s special desire and reason to summon the Dwarves.
- In Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ the Nauglamír is a by product of Thingols disere to have the unwroght metal of the Hoard used for works of Art.
- In Text X the Nauglamír is pre-existing and the Dwarves only but together ‘greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves’.
That is why I have assume in my text the Nauglamír was pre-existing. But I am still hesitating about it and in the discussion in the books forum the majority seems to lean in the oposit direction or the Nauglamír made for Thingol.
RD-SL-05: Do we use the quarrels on the road at all? I am open both ways here and included it with the necessary changes as an explanation why some (small) part of the hoard was lost on the road. But I am open to skip it completely.
RD-SL-07: In generall there is no change necessary here, but the new source gives some details of the conversation that should be used. Most important may be the fact that Thingol does not send Húrin away.
RD-SL-08: The fight between the Outlaws and the Tahnes of Thingol is now back.
RD-SL-09 & RD-SL-10: The Outlaws are all killed, so there is no question of them taking any part of the Hoard from Menegroth. (I am sad for the Asgon part of the Outlaws – but well over all this is a tragedy, so some victims are to be expected.)
RD-SL-11: Ufedhin is out, that is clear, but Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ gives some new details: Thingol stores the treasure for some time in his deep chamber, but it gnawed his mind – a time that would farther estrange him from his wife after he rejected her counsel to throw it away in the first place.
RD-SL-12: Now we have the exact conditions of the angament: one tithe of the unwrought metals. This makes the statement about the Nauglamír a double edged sword: ‘Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax …’ At first sight it is ony a praise for the handiwork of the Dwarven smiths, but in view of the ‘contract’ and the strife that developed around it, the Dwarves could have overstated the amount and if not straightforward steeling the overstated gold they could at least countup the promissed tithe.
RD-SL-13: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ is very compressed, but it does not seem to be Thingol demanding the Nauglamír. I would rather have the Dwarves asking for the bone of working with these two most beautyfull artfacts and Thingol agree to it with some reluctance.
RD-SL-14 - RD-SL-16: In this part I think we should take Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ as our basic text and see what can be added from the other sources. (We might start with that process even earlier.)
RD-SL-17: Now there is not only no battel, but the Dwarves leave Menegroth without payment by their owne choice – some stubbornness is clearly involved here: If we do not get what is our due, we will rather take nothing and come back in force to take the full payment.
RD-SL-18: As the material in UT very late I think the exclusion of the Dwarves from Belegost is still valid.
RD-SL-19: Mîm’s death reappears as an argument in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’, so it should be included.
RD-SL-20: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does assist the view that no treachers Elves from Doriath were involved in the planning or actual attack. (Phu, we are lucky not to re-open that discussion!)
RD-SL-21: Thingol is now neither ‘lured outside’ nor ‘induced to go to war beyond his borders’. Instead, the Girdle is simply ineffective due to the bead behavier of the Elves within or removed deliberately! by Melian. This leaves me with a lot of questions, but for our editing I would say we should take up that blank statement and leave it ambiguous which of the two things happen really (making both options opinions of the middle-earth reporters of this tale.) Anyhow we have to deal with Melian. She is not metioned again in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’, so she does not bring the news to Ossiriand, since that done by fugitives. I would even re-establish her talk to Naugladur in Menegroth and the unablility of the Dwarves to molest her in any way.
RD-SL-22: The only detail given in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ about Thingols death is that it is mentioned last even after the violation of his halls. If we don’t want the Dwarves to execute him after they made him a prisoner, I think Thingol has to be outside Menegroth, when it is attacked. And the way to archive that in the narrative is the celebrational hunt. Thus the details of Thingols death can stay.
RD-SL-22.5: The discussion of the honesty of the Dwarves and going against that by taking the Nauglamír with the Silmaril has of course to be included.
RD-SL-27: The discussion about the ford of the battle and over which river it leads is now settled, but in contrary to our former decision: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does tell us that its one of “Seven Rivers of Ossir”. And the Hoard is cast into that river and no other and that river is then re-named signifying “Golden-ded”. So the conclusion from that text is that the battle at the ford was at the Ascar not at the Duin Daer / Gelion. Which must mean we have Athrod Daer, the Great Ford, leading the Dwarve road over Duin Daer / Gelion into Talath Rhúnen above the confluence of Duin Daer and Ascar and a second ford nearer to the Erd Luin leading the road over Ascar into Ossiriand (probably it would only change the side of Ascar on which the road was build, since I beleife strongly that road followed that River into the mountains leading to the pass.) Farther question her: Do we name that second Ford Sarn Athrod, the Stony Ford? The name clearly fits the description of the place of that battle that we still use in our version and is free to be used since the ford over Duin Daer is now named differently. So I would use it.

Let’s try to get a text done. The best process would probably be to go back to my story-line draft, edit that to the actual state of the discussion, then replace part of it by Concerning … ‘The Hoard’, then insert all story related changes we might feel necessary and last expand that text with insertion from older versions. But the story-line draft is from 14 years ago and the process does even in theory look rather long, so I took our latest version, look which part is to be replaced by Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ and then expand that part. For the posting here I stripe the text as much as possible. The editing markers are the old once as far as possible, so that the reference to our old discussions is not lost. I will add some comments to specific changes at the end.
§267 (§1a) RD-EX-01 <WH Now it is said that those who {…}/sided/ with Hardang were not all caught, … - each minding his own houselands and little {...}[clearings] and their {...}[confederation] was loosened.>
§268 (§1b) RD-SL-00.5 {Hurin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, … and at his death Mîm cursed the gold.
And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. … 'thy fee for thy fair keeping of my wife and kin.'
Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, … and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men.
Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, … whereon to hang the Silmaril.
But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once … Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.
And Thingol, falling deeper into the thraldom of the spell, … But the remainder of the Dwarves were driven forth without reward or fee.
Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod and in Belegost they returned at length, … and their twilight was nigh at hand.
Queen Melian the Dwarves could not seize or harm, … the Land of the Dead that Live.
To the north of that region is a ford across the river Ascar, … or so filled with light.
Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse … yet the Silmaril they retained.
And in time the brief hour of the loveliness of the land of Rathlorion departed. … and none know where their meeting shall be again.}<Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ {He gathered a great company of violent outlaws, and they came to Nargothrond and slew Mim, and carried off a great part of the dragon-treasure.} RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under {Avranc}[Daruin] and made ready to depart, <WH Note 54 Isolated page end and others there were who {despair}despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth and {wish}wished to fly south> and they joined Húrin.> RD-EX-02.7b <WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).> RD-EX-03.1b <WH, Note 54, Text 2 A few men fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own {- are}were willing to go with Hurin.>
§269 (§1d) RD-EX-02 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon {greets}greeted him - and {is}was glad that {Harathor}[Hardang] {has}had been punished. And he was angered {Angered} that no one had told Húrin of their coming.>
§270 (§1e) RD-EX-04 <WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn}[Asgon] they {choose}chose for captain, but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}willed. /And he asked therefore Húrin:/ ‘Whither shall we go? {They}/We/ must {[? }know{]} a place of refuge.’ /And/ Húrin {elects}elected to go to Nargothrond.> RD-EX-02.5b <WH, Note 57
Húrin in Nargothrond
>§271 (§1f) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this}[the] year to Nargothrond. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, RD-EX-05.3{and}<TT; Note 33 {Now therefore he gathered to him a band of wild men, and} they were waxen a fiercy and lawless folk that dwelt not with their kin, who thrust them into the hills to live or die as they might.> Thus Húrin came south with a following of a hundred or more. … More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.> RD-EX-05.5 <WH /And of old /he had been an admirer of Felagund.> RD-EX-06 <QS77 {and}They passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and {he}they saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and Húrin knew what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>
§272 (§3a) RD-EX-07 <QS77 Here it must be told that <RD-EX-07.3 <WH {News}news of the fall of Nargothrond came to sons of Fëanor, … and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells. RD-EX-07.5 <TT But none had come nigh till then to despoil him, for the terror of the drake lived longer than he, and none had ventured thither again for dread of the very spirit of {Glorund}[Glaurung] the worm.>
§273 (§3b) RD-EX-08 <TT Now therefore when those {Elves}[Men] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Orodreth], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?’>
§3c (§274) RD-EX-09 <QS77 But Húrin said: 'Who are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'
§275 (§4a) QS77 Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and before the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkhizdīn. I have but returned to take what is mine; for I am the last of my people.'
RD-EX-08b<TT But {Úrin}[Húrin] answered: 'We come to take what is not thine.' Then said {that dwarf, and his name was }Mîm: 'ORD-EX-09.1{ Úrin}, little did I think to see{ thee,} a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mîm{ the fatherless}, … and by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself.'
§276 (§4d) TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that RD-EX-09.2{he bid them seize it all, and }Mîm {stood by and watched, and he }broke forth into terrible and evil curses.>
RD-EX-11.5d <QS77 'Then you shall enjoy your inheritance no longer,' … the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'
§278 (§6) QS77 Then Mîm in great fear besought Húrin to take what he would, but to spare his life;> <TT {But Mîm dying} and he said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men {shall}would rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed.>
§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: ‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life.’
><Lay of the Children of Húrin The dawn over {Doriath}[Narog] __ dimly kindled {695}
…
by {an orc-}[a cruel ]arrow __ his {oath}[curse] came home.>
RD-EX-11.52<QS77 Then {he}Húrin entered in, and stayed a while in that dreadful place, … but one thing only.>
RD-EX-11.53 <TT Then {Úrin wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he}[Húrin] bid {them}his men seize {it }all the treasure of Nargothrond.>
RD-EX-11.54a<§279 TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and they murmured at that, … than all the gold of Valinor can get you in the empty woods.’> Dominated by his will and by fear of him they brought this treasure to Doriath.
RD-EX-11.54b<§280 (§9) TT Now his heart was bitter against {Tinwelint}[Thingol], … and evil has followed its finders for ever.> (§8) RD-SL-05d<Q30 And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. {Each one}Some of Húrin's company died or {was}were slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves}on.> RD-EX-11.5 <WH, Note 57
Húrin in Doriath
>§281 (§10a) RD-SL-06b <TT Yet in the end that laden host came to the {bridge before the doors}, … bearing gifts{,’ and}.’ And when this was done{.}>, <Year 502 of The Grey Annals, WH Húrin {is}was admitted in pity.>
§282 (§10b) RD-EX-12 <TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] let bear all that magnificence before the king, … and knowest thou what death did {Nienóri}[Niënor] my daughter die?’>
§283 (§11) RD-EX-13 <QS77 Well{well} did {he}[Thingol] understand Húrin's intent; but being filled with pity he restrained his wrath, and endured Húrin's scorn,> RD-EX-13.5 <Q30 and long he bore with Húrin.> RD-EX-14b <TT Then did {Úrin}[Húrin] fiercely tell that tale, … for methinks the lustre of gold is all your heart contains.’>
§284 (§12) Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, RD-EX-15b <TT uncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed{ – but Úrin's men understood now what was forward and were little pleased}. RD-EX-17b <QS77 {Húrin made no answer to the King, but}And he drew forth from beneath his cloak that one thing which he had taken with him out of Nargothrond; … And Húrin cast it {at the feet of Thingol with wild and bitter words.}>{, and there Húrin cast it }before the feet of King Thingol in a proud gesture of scorn, saying that as “the Lord of the House of Hador” (Húrin) vowed not be beholden to an elf-King for the fostering of his son, nor the harbouring of his wife and daughter. ‘Here is your fee! More than enough, maybe, for services so meanly performed; RD-EX-17d <QS77 {For}for this is the Nauglamír, whose name is known to many among Elves and Men, RD-EX-15d <TT bought by the death of {Nienóri}[Niënor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm.>{and} And I bring it to thee … to fulfil the errand of Thingol of Doriath! RD-EX-15e <TT Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.> {but}But hold me now out of your debt and friendship!’
§286 (§16) Thingol was amazed at the insult, but answered with patience and courtesy, saying he wished for no ending of friendship with Húrin, whose name was honoured among Elves and Men for his great valour in the last Great Battle, and near all Elves and Men had been rather in his debt ever since. But Húrin laughed in contempt and went out, unmolested, into the night{.} RD-SL-07b <QS77 {then he turned away, and passed out from the Thousand Caves}, and all that saw him fell back before his face; and none sought to withstand his going, nor did any know whither he went>RD-SL-07c <Q30; {and}but some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men. RD-EX-19 But<TT his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.> RD-EX-21b <WH
The Nauglamír
Necklace of the Dwarves
>{But even as he did so, Thingol looked at the hoard and the dragon-curse began to work upon him, and upon all there who gazed at the treasure.} §287 (§17a) RD-EX-20 <TN {'Behold then,' said Ailios, 'in}In great grief gazed the king upon {Úrin}[Húrin] as he left the hall, … already were all who looked upon it touched by its subtle evil.
§288 (§17b) RD-EX-20.1 <TN Now therefore did {those}[many] of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur,> {The}the outlaws, released from the presence of Húrin, claimed that it was theirs, won by their weapons and labour.{ Fighting broke out, even in the inviolable halls of Thingol.}RD-SL-08b <TN {and}And one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.'
§289 (§18) TN Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol] for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: … and Túrin was my man.’
(§19) At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath, … and then depart in peace.’
§290 (§20} Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, … so that soon there was a great fight even upon the steps of the high-seat of the king.
Doughty were those outlaws … summoned a host of his warriors, and those outlaws RD-EX-20.2{being wildered with the stronger magics of the king' and confused in the dark ways of the halls of Tinwelint }were all slain fighting bitterly; … Thus did the curse of Mîm the Dwarf RD-EX-20.25{begin}follow its course; and yet another sorrow sown by the {Noldoli}[Noldor] of old in Valinor was come to fruit.
Then were the bodies of the RD-EX-20.3{outlaws cast forth, but the woodland Elves that were }slain {Tinwelint let bury}buried nigh to the knoll of Tinuviel,> RD-EX-20.4<Q30 and the howe wherein they were laid in Doriath was named Cum-nan-Arasaith, the Mound of Avarice.>
§291 (§22) RD-EX-22 <TN Now came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this gold, for my heart tells me it is trebly cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath RD-EX-23b , and cursed by thy lieges' blood that moistens it, and the death of those they slew; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’
§292 (§23) RD-EX-24 TN Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, … Now such mighty heaps of gold RD-EX-26b <editorial addition based on Conncerning … ‘The Hoard’ and silver >have never since been gathered in one place; and some thereof was wrought to cups, to basons, and to dishes, and hilts there were for swords, and scabbards, and sheaths for daggers; but RD-EX-26c the most part was of red gold <editorial addition based on Conncerning … ‘The Hoard’ and pale silver >unwrought lying in masses and in bars. The value of that hoard no man could count, for amid the gold lay many gems, and these were very beautiful to look upon, for RD-EX-27 {the fathers of the Rodothlim}[the people of Finarfin] had brought with them out of Valinor a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.>
§293 (§24a) RD-EX-28 <TN Now as he gazed {Tinwelint}[Thingol] said: ‘How glorious is this treasure! And{ I have not a tithe thereof, and} of the gems of Valinor I have none save that Silmaril that Beren won from {Angamandi}[Angband].’ But {Gwenniel}[Melian] who stood by said: ‘And that were worth all that here lies, were it thrice as great.’>
RD-EX-29.1<Q30 Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth.> {Blood was spilled on either side, but in the end all the outlaws were slain and }Thingol then had the treasure locked in a deep chamber. But it gnawed his mind, for the most of the treasure that had been brought from Nargothrond was in gold and silver yet unwrought, and he lusted specially for the silver, thinking what might be done with it. At last in an unhappy hour he {sent for the Dwarves of the Mountains to the east from Belegost and Nogrod.} RD-EX-29b <TN {Wherefore he }summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems (for much was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things{; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril}.> With them he had dealings and some friendship, and long ago they had helped in the building of his grand underground halls and palace.
§295 (§26) RD-EX-31 <QS77 In those days the Dwarves still came on their journeys into Beleriand … but in great companies well armed for their protection in the perilous lands between Aros and {Gelion}[Duin Daer] RD-EX-32b {; and they dwelt in Menegroth at such times in chambers and smithies set apart for them}. At that{ very} time> {The}the Dwarves sent emissaries, and they gazed on the treasure in amazement. After bargaining they agreed to send their best smiths to work at Thingol’s orders but at the price of one tithe of the unwrought metals. {The smiths came and laboured long, } RD-EX-32.1<Q30
§296 (§27) But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure{,}. RD-EX-40.2b <QS77 Then the Dwarves looked upon the Nauglamír the work of their fathers, and they beheld with wonder the shining jewel of Fëanor; and they were filled with a great lust to possess them, and carry them off to their far homes in the mountains. But they dissembled their mind, and consented to the task> {and}but they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' RD-EX-34.5b Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.>RD-EX-35<TN But as yet {the}their <editorial bridge treacherous> designs{ of Ufedhin} came to nought, for in no wise would {Tinwelint}[Thingol] suffer {or him or those of} the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] to depart to Nogrod with or without {that}[any] portion of the unwrought gold that yet remained, and he said: ‘How shall it be thought that after the weariness of your{ burdened} journeys hither … and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’>
§297 (§28a) RD-EX-36b <TN But {they}[the Dwarves] knew nonetheless that they were prisoners, and trying the exits privily found them strongly warded. Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest was that{ last} smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.>
§298 (§28c) RD-EX-37 <TN A golden crown {they}the Dwarves made for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], … wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of}[Carcharoth, the Red Maw greatest of all] wolves. RD-EX-38 {That was a more wonderful sword than any Tinwelint had seen before, and outshone the sword in Ufedhin's belt the king had coveted. These things wereof Ufedhin's cunning, but}And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold … and no tale tells a full count of them.>
§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39c <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], … In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; … for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were{ more} wondrous{ far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the Rodothlim wrought of old}. Cups and goblets did the king behold, … that {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was glad beyond the hope of {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves].
>{and among other marvellous works they made the renowned “Necklace of the Dwarves”, of silver, upon which was set in the middle the peerless Silmaril that Beren and Lúthien had won from the Iron Crown of the Dark Lord.} RD-EX-40b <TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}they said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest {gold}[silver] remaineth still, for we have husbanded it having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would re-make thee {a}that carcanet thou holds and to its re-making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’
Then again did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}[their] purpose{,}. RD-EX-30c <QS77 But {when Húrin was gone from Menegroth, }Thingol sat long in silence, gazing upon the great treasure{ that lay upon his knees; and it came into his mind that it should be remade, and in it should be set the Silmaril}. For as the years passed Thingol’s thought turned unceasingly to the jewel of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it with him always, waking and sleeping.> RD-EX-29b <TN Again looked {Tinwelint}[Thingol] upon the {gold}[silver], and it shone yet more alluring fair, nor ever had the sparkle of the gems seemed so brilliant, and {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves] said again: "Or in what manner, O King, dost thou guard that Silmaril of which all the world hath heard?"
Now {Gwenniel}[Melian] warded it in a casket of wood bound with iron, and {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves] said it was shame so to set a jewel that should not touch aught less worthy than the purest {gold}[silver]. Then was {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abashed, and yielded> {yet did he yield} the boon, an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.> RD-EX-36.5b <QS77 Long was their labour; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked.>
§300 (§28f) RD-EX-42 <TN {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world … Albeit a weight beyond belief of {gold}[silver] was used in the making, … Gems uncounted were there in that carcanet of {gold}[silver], yet only as a setting that did prepare for … the Silmaril of Fëanor, jewel of the {Gods}[Valar]. Yet alas, even had that {gold}[hoard] of {the Rodothlim}[Nargothrond] held no evil spell still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for the Dwarves were full of bitterness, and all its links were twined RD-EX-42.5 anew with baleful thoughts.>
But as their work progressed Thingol began to regret the bargain, and in particular he saw that if the tithe was paid in full, not enough would remain for the making of a thing upon which he had now set his spell-distraught heart, and a double throne of silver and gems for himself and Melian the Queen.
§301 (§28g) RD-EX-43 <TN Now however did {they}the Dwarves bear {it}the Nauglamír before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. Then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘Now, O Lord, that thou art pleased beyond thy hope, perchance thou wilt grant the craftsmen thy kingly reward, and suffer them to depart also in joy to their own lands.’>
§302 (§28h) RD-EX-44 <TN But {Tinwelint}[Thingol], bewildered by the golden spell and the curse of Mîm, liked not the memory of his tryst; yet dissembling he bid the craftsmen come before him, and he praised their handiwork with royal words.> RD-EX-44.1 <Q30 And Thingol, falling deeper into the thraldom of the spell, for his part scanted his promised reward for their labour{;}>{When the Dwarves had ended their work he [[† demurred?]]}, offering less than the tithe; or demanding at least that the throne should be made and other treasure given in stead of the silver required.
The Dwarves were angered, all the more because they had themselves come under the dragon-spell. They rejected Thingol’s terms, and refused anything less than the full tithe of treasure of Nargothrond{.}, RD-EX-46c<Q30 and bitter words grew between them[ and Thingol].<QS77 {;but}And the Dwarves in that moment {withheld it from him, and} demanded that he yield {it}[the treasure of Nargothrond and the Nauglamír] up to them, saying: ‘By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the Nauglamír, that was made by our fathers for Finrod Felagund who is dead? It has come to him but by the hand of Húrin the Man of Dor-lómin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.’ But Thingol perceived their hearts, and saw well that desiring the [treasure and the] Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent; and in his wrath and pride he gave no heed to his peril, but spoke to them in scorn, saying: 'How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuiviénen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?' And standing tall and proud among them he bade them with shameful words be gone unrequited out of Doriath.> Unpaid they departed in wrath.
{Back in their mountains’ strongholds they plotted revenge, and not long after they came down with a great force and invaded Doriath.} §304 (§30} RD-EX-49 <TN Now tells the tale that the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] fared home again, and if their greed had been kindled when first RD-EX-50 <editorial addition they saw> the gold{ was brought to Nogrod} now was it a fierce flame of desire, and moreover they burnt under the insults of the king. Indeed all that folk love gold and silver more dearly than aught else on Earth, while that treasury was haunted by a spell and by no means were they armed against it. RD-EX-51b {Now one there had been, Fangluin the aged, who had Counselled them from the first never to return the king's loan, for said he: ‘Ufedhin we may later seek by guile to release, if it seem good,’ but}But at that time this seemed not policy to Naugladur their lord, who desired not warfare with the Elves. Yet now did Fangluin[Footnote to the text: Fangluin: Bluebeard.]<moved from above the aged> jeer at {them}the Smiths mightily{ on their return}, saying they had flung away their labour for {a botcher's wage and a draught of wine}[nothing] and gotten dishonour thereto, and he played upon their lust{, and Ufedhin joined his bitter words thereto}. Therefore did Naugladur hold a secret council of the Dwarves of Nogrod, and sought how he might both be avenged upon {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and sate his greed.>
§305 (§31) Yet after long pondering … nor indeed could any such come thither RD-SL-20 { unaided by treachery from within}.
§306 (§32) RD-SL-19 <TN Now even as those aged ones sat in their dark halls and gnawed their beards, behold a sound of horns, and messengers were come from {Bodruith of the Indrafangs, a kindred of the Dwarves that dwelt in other realms}. Now these brought tidings of the death of Mîm{ the fatherless} at the hand of {Úrin}[Húrin] and the rape of {Glorund}[Glaurung]’s gold, which tale had but new come to {Bodruith's}[their] ears. Now hitherto the Dwarves knew not the full tale concerning that hoard, nor more than RD-EX-53.2 {Ufedhin}[the Elves] might tell hearing the speech in {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls, and {Úrin}[Húrin] had not spoken the full count thereof ere he departed. Hearing therefore these tidings new wrath was added to their lust and a clamour arose among them, and RD-EX-53.5 <Q&E {Indeed}indeed it was one of their grievances <editorial addition of old> against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there.><editorial addition Therefore> Naugladur vowed to rest not ere Mîm was thrice avenged - ‘and, more,’ said he, ‘me seems the gold belongs of right to the people of the Dwarves.’>
§307 (§33) RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]. Secretly he let send {to the Indrafangs}[the messengers back] RD-SL-18 asking <QS77 aid from Belegost, but it was denied {them}him, and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade {them}him from {their}his purpose>, because they <Unfinished Tales; Galadriel and Celeborn were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome>{ that they}RD-EX-55 . <editorial addition But the Dwarves of Nogrod>{ prepare}prepared their host against a day that {he}[Naugladur] would name, whenso the time should be ripe; and a hidden forging of bitter steel then was in [Nogrod.]{Belegost the dwelling of the Indrafangs.}>
§308 (§34) RD-EX-56 <TN Now each year about the time of the great wolf-hunt of Beren {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was wont to keep the memory of that day by a hunt in the woods, and it was a very mighty chase and thronged with very many folk, and nights of merriment and feasting were there in the forest. Now Naugladur {learnt of that Elf Narthseg, whose name is bitter to the Eldar yet}[knew], that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one RD-EX-57 {, and straightway he sent the trysted sign, a bloodstained knife, to Bodruith at Belegost}. Now all that host assembled on the confines of the woods, and no word came yet unto the king.>RD-SL-21 <moved from below The dwarf-host entered Doriath.> This had before been impossible, because of the Girdle of Melian, an invisible fence maintained by the power and will through which no one with evil intent could pass. But either this fence had been robbed of its power by the evil within, or Melian had removed it in grief and horror at the deed that had been done. {The dwarf-host entered Doriath and most of Thingol’s warriors perished. His halls were violated and he himself slain.} RD-EX-62b <QS77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way. RD-EX-59 <TN
§309 (§36) Behold now {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king rode forth a-hunting, … the Necklace of the Dwarves.>
§311 (§37b) RD-EX-60b Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow}grew faint in the deep forest, {but }{Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sat in her bower {and}but foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid{, Nielthi}: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But {Nielthi}the Elfmaid said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great {magic}[enchantment] all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word there was a cry about the doors, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...}, strengthened by the clash of steel. RD-EX-63.5b Then went {Gwendelin}[Melian] unafraid forth from her bower, and behold, a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Naugrim] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.
§313 (§39) RD-EX-64c Then did {Gwendelin}[Melian] know well that her foreboding was true, and that {treachery}[doom] had found her realm at last, yet did she hearten those few guards that remained to her and had fared not to the hunt, and valiantly they warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back {[}and{]} fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.
§314 (§40a) RD-EX-65c Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure, and lo! one came and sate him in the high seat of the king laughing loud, and {Gwendelin}when he saw {that it was Ufedhin, and}[Melian] mocking he bid her be seated in her ancient seat beside the king's. Then {Gwendelin}[Melian] gazed upon him so that his glance fell, and she said: "Wherefore{, O renegade,} dost thou defile my lord's seat? Little had I thought to see {any of the Elves}anyone sit there, a robber, stained with murder, a league-fellow of the truceless enemies of his kin. Or thinkest thou it is a glorious deed to assail an ill-armed house what time its lord is far away?" But {Ufedhin}[the Dwarf] said nought, shunning the bright eyes of {Gwendelin}[Melian], wherefore said she anew: "Get thee now gone with thy foul {Orcs}[comrades], lest {Tinwelint}[Thingol] coming repay thee bitterly."
Then at last did {Ufedhin}[the dwarf] answer, … but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur.
Then did {Gwendelin}[Melian] see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of {Artanor}[Doriath], and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and{ whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs keep, or slay, as they desire. Yet} the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’
Then said {Gwendelin}[Melian]: ‘Thief and murderer{, child of Melko}, yet art thou a fool, … and she read by her {fay}[devine]-wisdon the curse of Mîm and much of what would yet betide.
Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh … and now did there seem to her neither beauty nor joy be it in Valinor or in the Lands Without. RD-SL-22b Many of the scattered Elves in her wayward journeyings she met, … nonetheless must ye know how even in the hour that {Ufedhin's}[the dwarfish] host brake the palace and despoiled it, and other companies as great and as terrible of the {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Naugrim] fell with death and fire upon all the realm of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], behold the brave hunt of the king were resting amid mirth and laughter{, but Huan stalked apart}. Then suddenly were the woods filled with noise{ and Huan bayed aloud}; but the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. … and {Mablung and} the king[‘s thanes] fell{ side} by[ his] side - but RD-SL-23 <TN, Note 12 {Against this sentence my father wrote a direction that the story was to be that} the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] caught in the bushes and held the king>, and Naugladur it was who swept off the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] {after he was dead}, for {living}[so long as Thingol could fight] he dared not so near to his bright sword{ or the axe of Mablung}.> RD-EX-59.5 <QS77 So died{ in the deep places of Menegroth} Elwë Singollo, King of Doriath, … with his last sight gazed upon the Silmaril.>
RD-EX-59.55 <Q30 Thus was the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered.> According to dwarf-honesty, however, nothing was taken of all his treasures, save the hoard of Nargothrond. This the Dwarves had claimed: part as bargained pay, part as recompense for broken troth, and the need to make a great expedition to obtain their rights. Also (they now urged) the treasure had been taken with violence and murder from a Dwarf (though Mîm was not in fact akin to the Dwarves of the eastern mountains).
RD-EX-59.56 {The great necklace was taken from Thingol as he lay dead. Then}But the Dwarves departed from their “honesty” in spite of the warning of the wisest among them.<moved from above The great necklace was taken from Thingol as he lay dead.> They lusted for the peerless and supremely powerful gem, and under the plea that it would ruin their handiwork to remove it from the Necklace they carried it off.{ Then the Dwarves were routed. The gold and silver was cast into the river, which hereafter bore a new name, signifying “Golden-bed”.}RD-EX-59.57 <Q30 So{so} was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand.
§316 (§43a) Now the Dwarf-road to Nogrod and Belegost … Elves called it oft {Gwenh-i-cuina }[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live RD-EX-66 <QS77 ; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel;><Shibboloth and beside one great waterfall, called in Sindarin Lanthir Lamath ('waterfall of echoing voices'), Dior had his house.><Ros Dior{ their son}, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's <editorial addition , the Bëorian of Dorthonion>, and his mother's, … the name Elwë (Sindarin Elu) was believed to be and probably was drived from el 'star'.> RD-EX-67 <TN {and Auredhir was}And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his}their forefather Beren, and all loved {him}them, … seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>
§317 (§43b) To the north of that region {is}was a ford across the {river Gelion}[Duin Daer], near to its joining with Ascar that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named {Sarn-athrad}[Athrad Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes{ and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian}.>
Fugitives from Doriath brought news to Beren in Ossiriand, especially of the rape of the Silmaril. {He gathered a force and waylaid the Dwarves on their return march, at a ford across one of “Seven Rivers of Ossir”.} RD-EX-70b <TN Indeed the tale tells that even as that host of {the Orcs}[dwarves] were burning all the land of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and{ the Nauglath and the Indrafangin} were wending homeward burdened utterly with spoils of gold and precious things, came {Huan}[these fugutives] to Beren's lodge, and it was dusk. Lo, Beren sat upon a tree root and Tinúviel danced on a green sward in the gloaming as he gazed upon her, when suddenly stood {Huan}[the fugitives] before them, and Beren gave a cry of {joy and wonder, for it was long since he and Huan had hunted together}[surprice] {But}but Tinúviel looking upon {Huan}[them] saw that {he}they bled, and there was a tale to read in {his great}their eyes. And {she}Lúthien said suddenly: ‘What evil then has fallen upon {Artanor}[Doriath]?’ and {Huan}they said: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs}[war]; but Thingol is slain.’>
§319 (§45 & §46a) <TN Then did both Beren and Tinúviel weep bitter tears; nor did the full tale of {Huan}[the fugitives] dry their eyes. … sprang as it were by {magic}[a spell] towards him from{ every} glade and coppice, stream and fell.>
§320 (§46b) <TN Now not even Beren knew the tale of those{ myriad} folk … the {host}[small company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed] great [enough to him], … but at dawn he followed at the head of the green Elves, RD-EX-71 <QS77 and summoning to him Dior his son he left Tol Galen and they went north to the River Ascar.> {and}But Tinúviel abode in the glade and wept unto herself for the death of {Tinwelint} [Thingol], and {Gwendelin}[Melian] also she mourned as dead.>
§321 (§46c) <TN Now is to tell that the laden host … and Naugladur was at their head>. RD-EX-72 <TN {Now tells the tale that he fell in with}And the rangers of Beren's folk{, and these gaining from him}gained sure knowledge of all the host … he purposed to follow, and they sped back … unto their lord;{ but Ufedhin revealed not to them who he was, … he brought safe word,} and he set a trap for Naugladur. RD-EX-73 { No longer did he march hotly on the trail of the Dwarves, but knowing} Knowing that they would essay the passage of the river {Aros}[Ascar] at a certain time he turned aside, faring swiftly with his light-footed Elves by straighter paths that he might reach {Sarnathrod}[Sanr Athrod] the Stony Ford before them. Now the {Aros}[Ascar] is a fierce stream RD-EX-74 { - and is it not that very water that more near its spring runs swiftly past the aged doors of the Rodothlim's caves and the dark lairs of Glorund' -} and in those lower regions by no means {can}could be crossed by a great host of laden men save at this ford, nor {is}was it overeasy here. … he was in haste to reach Nogrod and its dark caverns{, for the Dwarves list not long to abide in the bright light of day}.>
§322 (§46d) <TN Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Ascar], … amidmost the great company of those that bore the treasury of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and many a fair thing beside that they had haled from Tinwelint's halls}; and behind these was Naugladur{, and he bestrode Tinwelint's horse, and a strange figure did he seem, for the legs of the Dwarves are short and crooked, but two Dwarves led that horse for it went not willingly and it was laden with spoil}. But behind {these}him came … they sought to cross {Sarnathrod}[Sarn Athrod] on their day of doom.>
§323 (§46e) <TN Morn was it … Now did Naugladur{ slip from his burdened horse and} prepare to get him over, … but the armed men of the rear were resting awhile.>
§324 (§46f) <TN Suddenly {is}was all that place filled with the sound of {elfin}[elvish] horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above the rest, and it {is}was the horn of Beren, the huntsman of the woods. Then {is}was the air thick with the slender arrows of the Eldar … but many were stricken with those pitiless darts and fell with their gold into the currents of the {Aros}[Ascar], staining its clear waters with their dark blood.>
§325 (§47) <TN Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them> [b]RD-EX-75 <QS77 eastwards towards the mountains. And as they {climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed}<editorial change entered the woods on the further bank> there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> RD-EX-76 <TN Now was that {great }fight of the Stony Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares … and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host{.}, RD-EX-77 <TN for even though Naugladur and his captains led their bands stoutly never might they grip their foe, and death fell like rain upon their ranks RD-EX-77.5 <TN , for {[?}others{]} poured still the hail of arrows upon them, and thus got the Eldar few hurts and the Dwarf-folk fell dead unceasingly> until the most part broke and fled, … filled them with mirth.>
§326 (§48) <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and he remembered the words of {Gwendelin}[Melian], for behold, Beren came towards him and he cast aside his bow, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.>
§327 (§49) <TN Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an thou canst, … but Beren called even as he fought that all should stay their hands.>
§328 (§50} <TN Now little doth the tale tell of wounds and blows of that affray, … by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his {dwarfen}[dwarven] mail; … and he thought: ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Man], and his folk will flee in fear before me,’ … But the body of Naugladur was cast into the {Aros}[Ascar].>
§329 (§51a) <TN Then did he unloose the necklace, … but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand].> RD-SL-27 <QS77 And when all was finished the treasure of {Doriath}[Nargothrond] was drowned in the River Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, {Rathlóriel}[Rathmallen], the Goldenbed.>
§330 (§51b) RD-EX-79 <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on {for ever} above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now {is}was the gloom and dread of that Stony Ford that none {seek}sought the treasure that it {guards}guarded nor {dare}dared ever to cross the{ magic} stream at that enchanted place.>
§331 (§51c) {But Beren rescued the Necklace and the Silmaril. Lúthien wore it, until ere long she and Beren passed away and were heard of no more in Middle Earth.}> RD-EX-79b <TN But Beren took the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril{;}. RD-EX-80 <TN {But}And in the vales of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] was there gladness at the homecoming of the Elves, and great was the joy of Tinuviel to see her lord once more returning amidst his {companies}[company], but little did it ease her grief … remembering the first days of their love and those days of travail in the wild{.}, RD-EX-80.1 <Q30 and it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor{, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light}.>
RD-EX-81b <TN {Now is it to be said that Beren sent for Ufedhin and well rewarded him for his words of true guidance whereof the Dwarves had been overcome, and he bid him dwell in.... among his folk, and Ufedhin was little loth; yet on a time, no}No great space thereafter{, did that thing betide which he least desired. For} came there a sound of very sorrowful singing in the woods, and behold, it was {Gwendelin}[Melian] wandering distraught, and her feet bore her to the midmost of a glade where sat Beren and Tinuviel; and at that hour it was new morning, but at the sound all nigh ceased their speaking and were very still. Then did Beren gaze in awe upon {Gwendelin}[Melian], but Tinuviel cried suddenly in sorrow mixed with joy: "O mother {Gwendelin}[Melian], whither do thy feet bear thee, for methought thee dead"; but the greeting of those twain upon the greensward was very sweet.{ And Ufedhin fled from among the Elves, for he could not endure to look upon the eyes of Gwendelin, and madness took him, and none may say what was his unhappy weird thereafter; and little but a tortured heart got he from the Gold of Glorund.}
§332 (§51d) Now {hearing the cries of Ufedhin Gwendelin}[Melian] looked in wonder{ after him, and stayed her tender words; and memory came back into her eyes so that}, and she cried as in amaze beholding the Necklace of the Dwarves that hung about the white throat of Tinúviel. Then wrathfully she asked of Beren what it might portend, and wherefore he suffered the accursed thing to touch Tinúviel; {and}then told Beren all that tale {such as Huan had told him, in deed or guess, and }of the pursuit and fighting at the ford{ he told also}, saying at the end: ‘Nor indeed do I see who, now that Lord {Tinwelint}[Thingol] is fared to Valinor, should so fittingly wear that jewel of the {Gods}[Valar] as Tinúviel.’ But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's halls, ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ But Beren laughed, saying that the glory of the Silmaril and its holiness might overcome all such evils, even as it burnt the {[? }foul{]} flesh of {Karkaras}[Carcharoth]. ‘Nor,’ said he, ‘have I seen ever my Tinúviel so fair as now she is, clasped in the loveliness of this thing of {gold}[silver]’; but {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Yet the Silmaril abode in the Crown of {Melko}[Morgoth], and that is the work of baleful smiths indeed.’>
§333 (§51e) <TN Then said Tinúviel that she desired not things of worth or precious stones but the {elfin}[elven] gladness of the forest, and to pleasure {Gwendelin}[Melian] she cast it from her neck; but Beren was little pleased and he would not suffer it to be flung away, but warded it in his [treasury].>
§334 (§51f) RD-SL-28.5<Q30 Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river {Ascar, and named it anew} {Rathlóriel}[Rathmallen], Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.} <moved from above, and{ that} for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the {Gods}[Valar], and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.>
Some comments:
RD-SL-00.5: This the place were I changed the basic text from Q30 to Concerning … ‘The Hoard’. I markd the full text replaced of Q30by Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ as taken out. It runs trough several paragraphs and ends at ‘and none know where their meeting shall be again.’
RD-SL-01 – RD-EX-11.5: Of course we expand the gathering of Húrins band, their dealing with Mîm and the transport to Doriath as we have done before.
RD-EX-08: I am not sure if we discussed this before: In our old discussion I was in error to name Galweg the father of Flinding, but in TN he is the father of Failivrin. So we have to change {Galweg}[Orodreth].
RD-EX-11.5d: I rearanged the sequence of speaking, to let Húrin have the last word. As we have abopted that Mîm was killed by an arrow put trough his throat he can not speak the curse dyding. In my arrangement he utters it as a last try to desuade Húrin from killing him – and fails since Húrin would not take the hoard from himself and the curse will rather enhance his vengeance on Thingol.
RD-EX-11.52 & RD-EX-11.53: If Húrin is to take the Nauglamír from the Hoard he must have a chance to inspect it by himself, but as we reinstalled the Outlaws in carrying the Hoard, he has to order them take it afterwards.
RD-EX-11.54a & RD-EX-11.54b: Here I used for the first time a snippet from Concerning … ‘The Hoard’. That Húrin set the course of action was clear in all versions but is here made nicely explicit.
RD-SL-05d: As said above, I am undecided about this. We could use it or we could skip.
RD-EX-15b, RD-EX-17b, RD-EX-17d, RD-EX-15d & RD-EX-15e: I changed the sequence here to get some flow with the speech from Concerning … ‘The Hoard’. And since here Thingol does not lose his contenace the passage from TN where he sends Húrin away can not be taken.
RD-EX-20.1: This is modivied to allow part of Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ to stand. (See my P.S. for a fan-ficional idea I had while working out this passage.)
RD-SL-08b: From her I took a long passage from TN, as that is the best description of the strife between Thingol and the Outlaws.
RD-EX-20.2: I think the bewilderment by Melians magic and the dark ways are no longer valid seeing how Menegroth was later described.
RD-EX-20.25: If we take up the Outlaws kill on the road then the Outlaws killed in Menegroth are no longer the first victiems of Mîm’s curse.
RD-EX-20.3: To cast the bodies of the killed Outlaws forth, is even in TN problematic: To where did they cast them? Out of Doriath – to long a way; just out of Menegroth – to have the stench of the routing bodies all over the place?
RD-EX-20.4: This is taken vom Q30 because it is the last mentioning of the name. I have no idea if that name is still useable in later Sindarin.
RD-EX-23b: Since we reinstalled the fight with the Outlaws we have as well to reinstall trebly curse and Melians warning about it.
RD-EX-26b: I adde the ‘pale silver’ since sliver plays a crucial part in the story as told in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ and is never mentiond in TN or TT. If some one has a beter idea then ‘pale’ for the description of the colour of silver to go with the ‘red’ of gold, I am open. But keep in mind that we speak about ‘masses and bars’ and not polished coins or precious.
RD-EX-29.1 & RD-EX-32.1: The resulting test is unchanged, but we need a marker since Q30 is no longer the basic text.
RD-EX-29b &RD-EX-32b: This is slightly changed for the integration with the new basic text.
RD-EX-40b: Changed to the effect of the dwarves asking to put the Nauglír together with the Silmaril.
RD-EX-30c & RD-EX-29b: I used this passages to explain why Thingol considers ‘the boon’, at all even so he has already some doubts about the dwarfish motives.
RD-EX-36.5b: This nicely prepairs the passage from Concerning … ‘The Hoard’, were Thingol rethings the bargain.
RD-EX-44.1: I hope this editing works to get a flowing text combined with the offering of less than the tithe.
RD-EX-46c: ‘departed in wrath’ is a bit short and this is my try to elaborate on it.
RD-EX-51b: I took Fangluin back in to gage Naugladur to an at first sight hopeless action.
RD-SL-21: I had to re-arange these sentences to get a readable text.
RD-EX-60b, RD-EX-63,5b, RD-EX-64c, RD-EX-65c & RD-SL-22b: As Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does agree in sequence of events with TN I used that text here and edited as necessary.
RD-EX-59.55: I needed a bridge her for the return to the basis text.
RD-EX-59.56: Again reaganged to get some better flow.
RD-EX-59.57: Marker needed because Q30 is no longer the basic text.
RD-EX-70b: Change to accord with the Fugitivs as messenger for Beren and Lúthien.
RD-EX-73: In all the following passages concerning the battle I changed the reference the river to Ascar and took up the name ‘Sarn Athrod’ for the Ford over Ascar. Other wise there is not much changed.
RD-EX-81b: Q30 has still the warning about the curse by Melian, therefore I took up the description of her coming from TN.
RD-SL-28.5: Here at the long last we change back our basic text to Q30.
As always please feel free to disagree with me!
Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I said before, that I find it sad that with the story as told now we lose Asgon as possible story teller. And while working on the text a purely fan-fictional solution for that issue poped up in my mind, that I would like to share here. BUT please mark: I am in strong opostion to take this up into our text! If some one thingks about agruing about it, he needs to present support from some original Tolkien source. I formatted the sinpet as we would edtit it the the -FF- in the marker signifiying fan-fiction. We jump into the story in the moment when Hurin leaves Menegroth:
§288 (§17b) RD-EX-20.1 <TN Now therefore did {those}[many] of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur,> RD-FF-01 <editorial addition but Asgon, how had in all that time not touch any part of that hoard,> RD-FF-02 <QS77 stooping lifted up the Nauglamír from where it lay before Thingol's chair, and he gave it to him, saying: 'Receive now, lord, the Necklace of the Dwarves, as a gift from one who has nothing, and as a memorial of Húrin of Dor-lómin. For now {my}, me seems, his fate is fulfilled, and the purpose of Morgoth achieved{; but I am his thrall no longer}.'
Then he turned away, and passed out from the Thousand Caves.> {The}But the outlaws, released from the presence of Húrin, claimed that {it}[u]the hoard was theirs, won by their weapons and labour.{ Fighting broke out, even in the inviolable halls of Thingol.}RD-SL-08b <TN {and}And one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.'

[gondowe]

Hello. Some commentaries and proposals.

In my opinion, Asgon's Noble Retreat could be included without lacking in inventing anything. Let the reader get a good idea of him, who was not included in Morgoth's curse and was nobler than the rest of the outlaws.

As for Cum-na-Arasaith, Could it not become Haudh-en-Arasaith?

From RD-EX-35 and the whole story of the Dwarves' stay in Menegroth, I think I would be against C..TH's scheme. The Dwarfs should leave and when they start manufacturing again according to RD-EX-37

And it is understood that the evil implications of the Dwarfs as in RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth], must be erases due to the better conception of them in later writings.

My combination proposal from here would be (sorry for the presentation):
Now Naugladur {learnt of that Elf Narthseg, whose name is bitter to the Eldar yet}[knew], that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one RD-EX-57 {, and straightway he sent the trysted sign, a bloodstained knife, to Bodruith at Belegost}. Now all that host assembled on the confines of the woods, and no word came yet unto the king.
RD-EX-56 <TN Now each year about the time of the great wolf-hunt of Beren {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was wont to keep the memory of that day by a hunt in the woods, and it was a very mighty chase and thronged with very many folk, and nights of merriment and feasting were there in the forest.
RD-EX-59 <TN §309 (§36) Behold now {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king rode forth a-hunting, … the Necklace of the Dwarves.>
RD-EX-60b Now {is}when the king was {far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow}grew faint in the deep forest} [gone], {but }{Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sat in her bower {and}but foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid{, Nielthi}: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But {Nielthi}the Elfmaid said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great {magic}[enchantment] all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’

This could "pre-explain" some better the failure of the Girdle.

RD-EX-62b <QS77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; {But either this fence} [the Girdle of Melian] had been robbed of its power by the evil within, or Melian had removed it in grief and horror at the deed that had been done> .and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way.


In other way, Sarn Athrod is valid as a ford for Ascar?
And I know that in C...TH Tolkien says that the battle occurred at the ford of one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir, but without name... Must we assume that they crossed first the Athrad Daer and then crossed the other ford over the Ascar?
Or maybe they went along the north path (their existence to the south is not clear) and arrived at Ascar?

What do you think?

Greetings

[Findegil]

Asgon: In my opinion we do not have enough evidence for such a story. Even so we think that he might have been the story teller of part of the Narn and The Wanderings of Húrin, we do not even have a hart evidence for that.

{Cum-na-Arasaith}[Haudh-en-Arasaith]: I can see the logic behind this change. Bt we I don't think we a change attested from {Cum-...}[Haudh-...], or have I missed it? The change from {...-na-...}[...-en-...] is attested, so I would agree to that at least.

From RD-EX-35 and the whole story of the Dwarves' stay in Menegroth, I think I would be against C..TH's scheme. The Dwarfs should leave and when they start manufacturing again according to RD-EX-37I do not fully understand what you mean here. I used parts of TN to form the text, and thus added the treacherous designs and Thingol forcing the Dwraves to stay, which are neither mentioned nor explicitly denied in Concerning ... 'The Horad'. If you think these elements are to be left out, I can agree to that. But the Dwarven Smiths never left Menegroth before their work was finished.

RD-EX-54: I don't agree to this statement. A pre-mediated war upon Doriath for not more than a thithe of the Hoards unwrought gold and silver must be considered an over reaction (spezially in an elf-centrict story as the Silmarillion is). And that JRR Tolkien was of that opinion as well, is seen in the very late Galadriel and Celeborn text which we used to skip the Dwarves from Belegost. Anyhow even if the rason for the war would have been just, the war would have tainted the friendship between Elves and Dwarves, which is all that is said here in more drastical words.

RD-SL-21: I like your idea to place the actual passing of the Dwarves trough the Girdle after that dialog between Melian and the Eflmaid. But I see an issue how to switch back to Menegroth and Melian afterwards. But That should be a solveable editorial issue.

RD-EX-62b: You skipt the passage from Concerning ... 'The Horad' about the former impossibility of passing the Girdle. Even so I can see the beter flwo that you created, I Think the explicit contarst shown in Concerning ... 'The Horad' shouldn't be lost.

Sarn Athrod as ford over Ascar: Yes that was my argument. And Concerning ... 'The Horad' does specifiy that the battle side is at Ascar even so in an indirect way:
- Beren 'waylaid the Dwarves on their return march, at a ford across one of “Seven Rivers of Ossir”'
- 'The gold and silver was cast into the river' (emphasis added) - which clearly means the same river that the ford crossed.
- that river 'hereafter bore a new name, signifying “Golden-bed”' - as soon as the battle was moved from the border of Doriath (Ford over Aros) to Ossiriand the re-named river has ever been Ascar, even when the Battle was at a ford over Duin Daer (Gelion).
Yes, for me it is clear that the Dwarf-road crossed 'Duin Daer' at 'Athrad Daer', the 'Great Ford', run for considerable way along the north of Ascar and then crossed Ascar at 'Sarn Athrad', the 'Stony Ford'.
Just arriving at Ascar is not enough. Concerning ... 'The Hoard' tells us that the battle was at a ford - at least that is made very explicit, and as argued above for me that ford is over Ascar.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Asgon must have a rethinking, Asgon was nobler than the outlaws (and the Hoard could have less influence in him), and not touched by the Curse of Morgoth only could be for example, (sorry, this is a retranslation of my spanish):
"Therefore many of Húrin's companions began to murmur, and the outlaws, freed from Húrin's presence, claimed that he was theirs, earned by their weapons and toil. But Asgon rebuked his men, and bowing to the king he left Doriath with his worshipers, in search of Húrin; and no story speaks of his fate."
Thingol and the Dwarves are predisposed to the curse of the treasure, the only thing, the rest of the Elves of Doriath..., I don't know.

Haudh. I think it would be a plausible way of change. I can't say if in any time you/we consider that change. Some of the "lambergolmor" of the Spanish Tolkien Society told me that is plausible, and they are word not in Neo-Sindarin, that I didn't want. But we need more opinions.

Quote: I do not fully understand what you mean here. I used parts of TN to form the text, and thus added the treacherous designs and Thingol forcing the Dwraves to stay, which are neither mentioned nor explicitly denied in Concerning ... 'The Horad'. If you think these elements are to be left out, I can agree to that. But the Dwarven Smiths never left Menegroth before their work was finished.

Ok. In C.. TH is said "After bargaining they agreed to send their best smiths to work at Thingol’s orders but at the price of one tithe of the unwrought metals. The smiths came and laboured long".
And now I can see that the Dwarves emissaries could not leave Menegroth and send to look for the Smiths.

They could be retained and could not. I meant to remove them, but could agree retainig them.

RD-EX-54 I meant with the statement "more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]", it sound to me an old conception.


My quote, my fault: And I know that in C...TH Tolkien says that the battle occurred at the ford of one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir, but without name...

I meant without a ford over Ascar name. Could it be Sarn Athroth as the name of the ford over Ascar, too much naming?

I strongly think that the story must be East Road-->Athrd Daer--> Ford over Ascar.. but without naming it, or naming simply "a Stony Ford".
Don't know, what do you think.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Asgon: No doubt, in my personal 'Silmarillion' Asgon does surfive. But I don't see that we have enough evidence to introduce anythink in our text in this project. Which means that if we really want an introduction of what ever kind, we would have to find arguments out of original Tolkien sources for his surfival.
But just to mention it: For me there no chance for a following of Asgon that would surfive with him. I can imaging Asgon staying away from the Hoard, but the rest of Húrins following is needed to transport the Hoard, that means they are under the curse of Mîm and that has to kill them in one way or another.

Haudh: More oppinions would be good, other wise it needs toilsome investigation.

RD-EX-35: Why do you think the emessaries could not leave Menegroth after they had negothiated with Thingol? And whom could thy send back to fetch the smiths? I think that 'send' in Concerning ... 'The Hoard' does explicitly mean that the emessaries themself walked back to Nogord and initiated the smiths to go to Menegroth.
As a matter of fact, I think here the structure of TN shows trough, but with Ufedhin and his dwarfish friends and the transport of half of the Hoard to Nogord taken out.

RD-EX-54: Clearly the statment is routed in the old conception of the Dwarves. But there are some arguments why it could still be useable:
- we see even in later sources some Dwarves reported to be 'under the Shadow' when they first meet with the Fathers of Men
- later some Dwarves fight for Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance
- The story is alway told out of the perpective of the ELves or their friends. And it is a classical point of view in a polarised situation such as war, that foe of my foe is my friend and vise versa.

Sarn Athrad: Reading my own text know I can see your problem with the naming: It is to seperated and with that confusing (especailly since many readers would be familar with the old concept of Sarn Athrad being the Ford over Gelion). We have to find a n other way to make the geography of the road more clear. I will search for that and come back with a better presentation of what we consider as fact.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

As promissed I have worked a bit farther on the textual issues:
First RD-SL-21 and gondowe's idea to introduce the failing of the Girdle by the speak of Melian with the Maid in Menegroth. What about this eiditing:§308 (§34) RD-EX-56 <TN Now each year about the time of the great wolf-hunt of Beren {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was wont to keep the memory of that day by a hunt in the woods, and it was a very mighty chase and thronged with very many folk, and nights of merriment and feasting were there in the forest. Now Naugladur {learnt of that Elf Narthseg, whose name is bitter to the Eldar yet}[knew], that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one RD-EX-57 {, and straightway he sent the trysted sign, a bloodstained knife, to Bodruith at Belegost}. Now all that host assembled on the confines of the woods, and no word came yet unto the king.> RD-EX-59 <TN
§309 (§36) Behold now {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king rode forth a-hunting, and more glorious was his array than ever aforetime, and the helm of gold was above his flowing locks, and with gold were the trappings of his steed adorned; and the sunlight amid the trees fell upon his face, and it seemed to those that beheld it like to the glorious face of the sun at morning; for about his throat was clasped the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.>
§311 (§37b) RD-EX-60b <TN Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow}grew faint in the deep forest, {but }{Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sat in her bower {and}but foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid{, Nielthi}: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But {Nielthi}the Elfmaid said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great {magic}[enchantment] all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’>
RD-EX-62b <QS77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath.> RD-SL-21b This had before been impossible, because of the Girdle of Melian, an invisible fence maintained by the power and will through which no one with evil intent could pass. But either this fence had been robbed of its power by the evil within, or Melian had removed it in grief and horror at the deed that had been done. The dwarf-host entered Doriath and {most of Thingol’s warriors perished. His halls were violated and he himself slain.} RD-EX-62b <QS77 {Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and} none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way.
>RD-EX-60c <TN Even {at that word}when Melain had spoken there was a cry about the doors, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...}, strengthened by the clash of steel. RD-EX-63.5b Then went {Gwendelin}[Melian] unafraid forth from her bower, and behold, a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Naugrim] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.
And than the geography of the Dwarf-Road and the fords:... yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>
§317 (§43b) RD-EX-67.1 <Q30 To the north of that region {is}was a ford across the {river Gelion}[Duin Daer], {near to its joining with}RD-EX-67.2 <Maeglin just above the inflow of the River >Ascar that falls in torrents from the mountainsRD-EX-67.3 <Maeglin (the last point where the {River Gelion}[Duin Daer] could be crossed)>; and that ford is named {Sarn-athrad}[Athrad Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}.> RD-EX-67.4 <Annals of Beleriand 103 [153] {and the Dwarves trafficked into Beleriand; and they made a}The great Dwarf-road{, which came north, east of the mountains, and thence it passed under the shoulders of Mount Dolm,(17) and} followed thence the course of Ascar, {and crossed Gelion at the ford Sarn-Athrad, and so came unto Aros.}> RD-EX-67.5 <Later Silmarillion; Of the coming of Men … {and taking the Dwarf-road he crossed Gelion at the ford of Sarn-athrad,} and turning south over the upper streams of AscarRD-EX-67.6<moved from above at the ford {Sarn-Athrad}[Sarn Athrod]>, {he}it came into the north of Ossiriand.> RD-EX-67.7<Q30 This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes RD-EX-67.8<moved from above {passed}passing under the shoulders of Mount {Dolm}[Dolmed]>{and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian}.>
Fugitives from Doriath brought news to Beren in Ossiriand, ...Respectfuly
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I am just dropping in to weigh in on the Haudh question. The last word, Arasaith, is not likely to be proper Sindarin. I will try to lay it out here:

Arasaith was Tolkien's Noldorin update of Idrisaith in Gnomish. He does not break it down, but it seems to be made from:

G. saith - hunger
G. avos - wealth, prosperity, fortune, luck

With regards to saith there has been a proposed updated version to follow Sindarin development becoming saeg but this is Neo-Sindarin, and requires the switching of the original Gnomish root ᴱ√SAẎA to ᴺ√SAYAK, due to Tolkien's use of a -kǝ suffix to form all the derivative words (eQ: saike, saiqa, G> saig, saith). Because saig exists also as a G. derivative of the root, given as meaning "hungry," I think this neo-Sindarin saeg is very soundly reasoned and argued, and I think it is fine to use.

With regards to avos The situation is less cut and dry. The word is originally said to be derived from ᴱ√AW̯A, which has derivatives having to do with wealth. However, much later, in 1969 linguistic notes, Tolkien references a root √AW, meaning 'have in hand, possess, own.' This he gives the Quenya derivative aura - possession, thing owned. I think for our purposes we can use the Ara- element of Arasaith as a derivative of √AW, perhaps as a cognate of Q. aura: possession. Since Arasaith essentially meant "wealth-hunger" our new word might mean "possession-hunger" but I think the sense is still essentially the same.

Putting this elements together with the correctly updated initial part of the word gives us Haudh-en-Arasaeg for which Mound of Avarice is still a good translation.

I personally would be fine using this updated name, but I leave that up to you.

[gondowe]

Quote: Asgon: No doubt, in my personal 'Silmarillion' Asgon does surfive. But I don't see that we have enough evidence to introduce anythink in our text in this project. Which means that if we really want an introduction of what ever kind, we would have to find arguments out of original Tolkien sources for his surfival.
But just to mention it: For me there no chance for a following of Asgon that would surfive with him. I can imaging Asgon staying away from the Hoard, but the rest of Húrins following is needed to transport the Hoard, that means they are under the curse of Mîm and that has to kill them in one way or another.

Agreed. But let only Asgon to leave Doriath. Or even, let Asgon to leave Nargothrond before the carring of the Hoard. Could be?

RD-EX-35: Ok. I think it could be. Agreed.
RD-EX-54: The same, the Dwarves with Sauron convinced me. ;)

Agreed with the new texts but in: Quote:This had before been impossible, because of the Girdle of Melian, an invisible fence maintained by the power and will through which no one with evil intent could pass.

I think the Girdle of Melian was well described in the corpus of the Mithology earlier. The Reader know what is the Girldle of Melian. For that reason I say to erase from the text. Tolkien in the manuscript is describing to a reader that didn't know what was it.

And the geography is well for me, only if we are all agreed to call the ford Sarn Athrod or simply "a stony ford"

About Asasaeg, in my project only try to use words from Tolkien, I don't mind if they are Noldorin, (I manage it as the diferent traditions of the sources), but try to modernised with "modern" words used by him. as Haudh. I don't know if is enough correct but for me Arasaith is valid. So you must decide if is valid for this project.

Greetings.

[Findegil]

Asgon: But let only Asgon to leave Doriath. Or even, let Asgon to leave Nargothrond before the carring of the Hoard. Could be?Yes, both could be, so I would not believe in Asgon leaving in or even before Nargothrond was reached. But could be is not enough.
What do we know?
Well, near to nothing. We have a very indirect evidence that one of Húrins Band survified at least long enough to tell the story how they essambeld around Húrin and picked up the Hoard. And even that is not sure, since the essambling could simply be deduced from evidence by the author of the Narn (people that left Brethil 'with' Húrin, report about the dead men in Menegroth) and for the death of Mîm there seemed to be other witness, since we hear that this news was brought to Belegost (supposedly by Ibun, Mîm's younger son).
So even if I would ignore the fact that the story could be written without one of the Band survifing, we have no idea who was the survifer nor how he escaped the curse of Mîm and when he left the band and or Húrin.
This means everythink we would put into our text would be invented facts in Middleearth. And that is a thing we shy back from for sure!

About the Girdle: I agree that in this place it is a repeatition for sure, but of how fare back in our text? Anyhow I don't see that as an issue - repeatition are not that uncommon in Tolkiens texts.

Sarn Athrod: Yes, that is exactly teh question we have to answer: Do we use the name or not? My oppinion is yes, but I could go with both answers.

Asasaeg: Neo-Sindarin is a kind of no go for me. I think it is safest to leave the sindarin name out.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Ok. We must remove Asgon. I, for sure too, don't want to invent anything not based in Tolkien's words.
I only wanted to ask for something that I might have missed.

Sarn Athrod. I'll give my thougts.
Athrod I suppose is old Gnomish or Noldorin. The Sarn Athrad has a general meaning of Stony Ford, but we have here a, say, "new" ford over Ascar that we have to manage. I'm inclined to use it as it was the old Aros ford, mostly having the Gelion Ford's name now as Athrad Daer. But I always wonder if the suggested change of the last one was due to not repeat the Sarn Athrad of the Baranduin.

Asasaeg. As I said, I agree with the rejection of Neo-Elvish, I prefer to use Noldorin or leave it only in English/Spanish (another option to de Sarn Athrod/Stony ford).

Greetings

Edit: One proposal.

RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]. <From C..TH {Evidently not a lover of Dwarves, but one who looked only on their bad side (or knew no other side). He} [This] had some justification, for though no servants of the Evil Vala, the Dwarves were by nature and origin specially open to the degeneration of their love and admiration {[[the word “for” is corrected to “of”, written above the original word]]} of works of “craft” into a fierce possessiveness.

[Findegil]

Asgon: Agreed.

Athrad: I have to appologise for some confusion: 'Athrod' is clearly the old version and has to be replaced by the newer 'Athrad'. I was inconsitent in my use, but have corrected that now.
Beside that I agree that it is possible that JRR Tolkiens change Sarn Athrad => Athrad Daer could have been motivated by the fact that Sarn Ford was fixed by publication as a name for a ford in Eriador. But (and that is a big but) it is speculation on the motive of the change and we have lots of geographical features on the LotR-map that have similar of identical names to such features on the 'Silmarillion'-map.
Other than that I did not fully get your meaning. Do you agree to use Sarn Athrad for the ford over Ascar were the battle was fought? If not I agree that we simply remove the elvish name and stay with Stony Ford.

Asasaeg: Okay if nobody else speaks up, we skip the elvish name.

Your proposal, that I will name RD-EX-54.5: Good find! I agree to the inclusion.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

I'm inclined to use Sarn Athrad. Because is a name with very much history and is the everlasting ford of the battle from the begining. I only have doubts of its use and if is too much surpase the limits of edition. So yes, I WANT to use it. But with that doubt. But if you are convinced that this not too much editing I will fall into the abyss😉

Greetings

[Aiwendil]

My goodness, I disappear for a bit, and a late Tolkien text with major implications appears. I’m sorry I wasn’t around last August when these discussions of “Concerning The Hoard” were initially happening.

Some general remarks first about my impression of the text. First of all, I would rest easier if we had firmer evidence for the date. It’s said to be from “circa 1964”, and I accept that this is the case, but since that makes it probably the latest text concerning the Ruin of Doriath, it would be better if we could be sure about it.

It’s clearly intended as a quick and ready guide to the events for the recipient of the letter, and taking this together with Tolkien’s tendency for “slips of the pen” in later years, I think we should not be overly eager to take every word here as gospel, particularly on subjects not immediately connected with the letter’s main topic, i.e., Glaurung’s hoard and the Ruin of Doriath. On the other hand, this is also not just a quick note that he sent off; concerning its central subject, it’s pretty clear that it really does express his intentions for the story at the time.

As I see it, the most important deviation of “Concerning ‘The Hoard’” from the story as we previously projected it is the explanation for how the Dwarves went to war with Thingol despite the protection of the Girdle of Melian. Here, two alternatives are offered: either the Girdle had already been robbed of its power by the evil deeds within, or else Melian, out of grief and horror at those deeds, removed the Girdle herself. This is in contrast to a note given in HoMe XI, found among notes on the Narn i Chin Hurin and apparently dating from about the same time as them, proposing that Thingol must be “lured outside or induced to go to war” beyond the Girdle’s border and killed; then Melian departs and the Girdle is removed with her departure.

Now, we don’t know the date of that latter note. It would seem most likely, based on what CT tells us in HoMe XI, that it dates from a time during which Tolkien was working on Turin’s story, which would put it somewhere in the ’50s. Given the lack of a date for that note, and the lack of a precise date for “Concerning ‘The Hoard’”, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that the note in XI is actually the latter of the two. But certainly the evidence favors the opposite conclusion, that “Concerning ‘The Hoard’” postdates the “lured or induced to go to war” note.

I must say that, personally, I find the “Concerning ‘The Hoard’” version weaker. It’s unclear why evil deeds done within Doriath would weaken Melian’s magic, and even less clear why Melian would forsake Thingol and leave him to his death rather than doing her best to counsel wisdom, as she typically does. Whereas it’s easy for me to imagine an overly confident Thingol leaving the protection of his realm. But that’s just my personal feeling, which can play no role in our decisions. Since the version where Melian intentionally removes the Girdle is difficult to fathom, though, I think we are left with the idea that the Girdle was robbed of its power by the evil deeds within Doriath as the best, latest version of this part of the story.

I see there’s also been more discussion concerning the note in the Beren & Luthien volume referring to a text in which the Nauglamir was made for Finrod (“Text X” as Findegil calls it). My feeling about this previously was that we cannot take this version of the story into our text, and “Concerning ‘The Hoard’” only strengthens that opinion. To be perfectly honest, and to put it bluntly, I’m not completely convinced that “Text X” exists. If it does, it is remarkable that there is no mention of it in HoMe XI, where CT offers a kind of apologia for his version of The Ruin of Doriath. It seems just possible that in preparing Of Beren and Luthien, the 92 year-old Christopher Tolkien misremembered the idea of an earlier provenance for the Nauglamir as one that derived from his father’s notes. I’m not saying this is the case; I’m saying it’s possible.

But let’s assume Text X exists. Apparently, it was not one that CT deemed significant enough to include or even to mention in HoMe. Nor do we have any inkling of a date for it. What we do have now, sitting before us with a date less than ten years before Tolkien’s death, is a text that says:

The smiths came and laboured long, and among other marvellous works they made the renowned “Necklace of the Dwarves”, of silver, upon which was set in the middle the peerless Silmaril that Beren and Lúthien had won from the Iron Crown of the Dark Lord.

As far as I’m concerned, a text that we possess and know to date from a late period trumps a text of which all that we possess is a vague allusion and no date.

With these things in mind, let me give my thoughts on Findegil’s post from nearly a year ago now.

RD-SL-03.5: This is not new but an undecided issue: Was the Nauglamír made for Finrod Fealgund and brought to Menegroth by Húrin as a special item of the hoard and there the Dwarves ‘only’ put it together with the Silmaril or was it made by the Dwarves in Menegroth for Thingol specially as a framework for his Silamril? For me the text of Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does play down the significance of the Silmaril in favor of the dragon-sickness and / or the curse of Mîm. The making of the “Neckless of the Dwarves” is only mentioned in passing, it is neither the object for which Thingol call upon the Dwarves nor in anyway the reason for the strife between Thingol and Dwarves. As we do not know if Text X was earlier or later than Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ we might follow a kind of ‘line of development’:
- In Q30 the Nauglamír is Thingol’s special desire and reason to summon the Dwarves.
- In Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ the Nauglamír is a by product of Thingols disere to have the unwroght metal of the Hoard used for works of Art.
- In Text X the Nauglamír is pre-existing and the Dwarves only but together ‘greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves’.
That is why I have assume in my text the Nauglamír was pre-existing. But I am still hesitating about it and in the discussion in the books forum the majority seems to lean in the oposit direction or the Nauglamír made for Thingol.

I’m already a little bit lost here, for I cannot find RD-SL-03.5 in the list the RD-SL-## storyline items.

In any case, I have already given my opinion on this. I do not think we can elevate our hypothetical Text X to the status of the latest and most authoritative statement on the matter, for a host of reasons. We must go with the Nauglamir being made for Thingol.

RD-SL-05: Do we use the quarrels on the road at all? I am open both ways here and included it with the necessary changes as an explanation why some (small) part of the hoard was lost on the road. But I am open to skip it completely.

It seems to me that the quarrels on the road were invented solely to get rid of Turin’s band of followers in Q30. Since the outlaws are no longer meant to die in this way, I don’t see any reason for the half measure of still including the cause of their death. I think the quarrels on the road must go.

RD-SL-07: In generall there is no change necessary here, but the new source gives some details of the conversation that should be used. Most important may be the fact that Thingol does not send Húrin away.
RD-SL-08: The fight between the Outlaws and the Tahnes of Thingol is now back.

Agreed on both of these.


RD-SL-09 & RD-SL-10: The Outlaws are all killed, so there is no question of them taking any part of the Hoard from Menegroth. (I am sad for the Asgon part of the Outlaws – but well over all this is a tragedy, so some victims are to be expected.)

I agree that it’s a shame that Asgon dies here, but so it goes. At least in our text there is no explicit mention of Asgon after they leave Brethil; if the reader prefers to imagine that Asgon left the band before they took the treasure, he or she is free to do so.

RD-SL-12: Now we have the exact conditions of the angament: one tithe of the unwrought metals. This makes the statement about the Nauglamír a double edged sword: ‘Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax …’ At first sight it is ony a praise for the handiwork of the Dwarven smiths, but in view of the ‘contract’ and the strife that developed around it, the Dwarves could have overstated the amount and if not straightforward steeling the overstated gold they could at least countup the promissed tithe.

But this must now be changed, surely - for “Concerning ‘The Hoard’” says that the Nauglamir was made of silver. I think we can simply change it to ‘Albeit a weight beyond belief of silver was used in the making’.

RD-SL-13: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ is very compressed, but it does not seem to be Thingol demanding the Nauglamír. I would rather have the Dwarves asking for the bone of working with these two most beautyfull artfacts and Thingol agree to it with some reluctance.

It does seem that CTH is completely neutral on the question of whose idea it was to make the Nauglamir, though it does say that the Dwarves sent their best smiths “to work at Thingol’s orders”. In any case, I don’t see any reason that this text would make us reconsider the choice we made before, of removing the element of the Dwarves waiting until they had shown Thingol there other works and then specifically asking to make a necklace for the Silmaril.

RD-SL-14 - RD-SL-16: In this part I think we should take Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ as our basic text and see what can be added from the other sources. (We might start with that process even earlier.)

Agreed.

RD-SL-17: Now there is not only no battel, but the Dwarves leave Menegroth without payment by their owne choice – some stubbornness is clearly involved here: If we do not get what is our due, we will rather take nothing and come back in force to take the full payment.
RD-SL-18: As the material in UT very late I think the exclusion of the Dwarves from Belegost is still valid.
RD-SL-19: Mîm’s death reappears as an argument in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’, so it should be included.
RD-SL-20: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does assist the view that no treachers Elves from Doriath were involved in the planning or actual attack. (Phu, we are lucky not to re-open that discussion!)

Agreed on all of these points.

RD-SL-21: Thingol is now neither ‘lured outside’ nor ‘induced to go to war beyond his borders’. Instead, the Girdle is simply ineffective due to the bead behavier of the Elves within or removed deliberately! by Melian. This leaves me with a lot of questions, but for our editing I would say we should take up that blank statement and leave it ambiguous which of the two things happen really (making both options opinions of the middle-earth reporters of this tale.) Anyhow we have to deal with Melian. She is not metioned again in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’, so she does not bring the news to Ossiriand, since that done by fugitives. I would even re-establish her talk to Naugladur in Menegroth and the unablility of the Dwarves to molest her in any way.

I suppose we really have no justification to decide one way or the other - the Girdle being robbed of its power due to the evil deeds within or Melian deliberately removing it. As I’ve said, I find the latter possibility faintly ridiculous. But that’s as may be. However, I’m not sure why anything in CTH would urge the reinstatement of Melian’s talk with Naugladur and the inability of the Dwarves to carry her off.

RD-SL-22: The only detail given in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ about Thingols death is that it is mentioned last even after the violation of his halls. If we don’t want the Dwarves to execute him after they made him a prisoner, I think Thingol has to be outside Menegroth, when it is attacked. And the way to archive that in the narrative is the celebrational hunt. Thus the details of Thingols death can stay.

I very much disagree with this. The fact that Thingol’s death is mentioned after the sack of Menegroth does not imply that one happened after the other, and certainly not that they were separated by a significant interval of time. Indeed, the way it is phrased suggests to me that the violation of his halls and the killing of Thingol occurred together. And something as major as Thingol being away on a hunt at the time of the sack, and being killed later in a separate battle, is not something that seems likely to be left out of this account, compressed though it is. Note also that if we assume the king was killed later, outside Menegroth, then we must interpret CTH as jumping backward in time in the following paragraph to talk about the plundering of the hoard from Menegroth.

So, I’m afraid I’m firmly of the opinion that the hunt must go, and that Thingol was killed at Menegroth.

RD-SL-22.5: The discussion of the honesty of the Dwarves and going against that by taking the Nauglamír with the Silmaril has of course to be included.

Agreed.

RD-SL-27: The discussion about the ford of the battle and over which river it leads is now settled, but in contrary to our former decision: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does tell us that its one of “Seven Rivers of Ossir”. And the Hoard is cast into that river and no other and that river is then re-named signifying “Golden-ded”. So the conclusion from that text is that the battle at the ford was at the Ascar not at the Duin Daer / Gelion. Which must mean we have Athrod Daer, the Great Ford, leading the Dwarve road over Duin Daer / Gelion into Talath Rhúnen above the confluence of Duin Daer and Ascar and a second ford nearer to the Erd Luin leading the road over Ascar into Ossiriand (probably it would only change the side of Ascar on which the road was build, since I beleife strongly that road followed that River into the mountains leading to the pass.) Farther question her: Do we name that second Ford Sarn Athrod, the Stony Ford? The name clearly fits the description of the place of that battle that we still use in our version and is free to be used since the ford over Duin Daer is now named differently. So I would use it.

I think I agree with this line of thinking, and I am fine with using “Sarn Athrad” for the ford over the Ascar.

On the point that Gondowe brought up regarding RD-EX-54, I do think, looking at it now, that we cannot make the bald statement that the Dwarves drew more nigh in friendship to the followers of Morgoth. This isn’t related to CTH, but it’s something that should’ve been caught before. It’s a very pre-The Hobbit conception of Dwarves. I think we need to delete this statement.

Well, those are my thoughts. Hopefully Findegil, Gondowe, and others still check in here from time to time and I’m not talking to a void.

[Arvegil145]

In all my time reading about the numerous arguments over the CtH, I've yet to see this one (which to me, at least, seems obvious as day):

Could the evil within mentioned as a possible cause for the downfall of the Girdle of Melian in Concerning... 'The Hoard' be as simple as Hurin's sheer admittance to Doriath?

That man, after he was released from Angband, has been a walking, talking doomsday device for anyone and anything close to him.


While I originally despised Turgon for not admitting Hurin into Gondolin immediately - given all the things he has done to save Gondolin's hide - I now honestly think that it might have been for the best.

Hurin, just by his sheer presence in the vicinity of Gondolin managed to tip off Morgoth to Gondolin's general location - after which, it was only a matter of time until Gondolin itself was found.

But given the fact that every realm (and people!) who had given him any acceptance after his release ended up absolutely demolished, it makes me think that Gondolin would've somehow manage to fall to ruin even earlier than had Turgon not hesitated about letting him in: which would've essentially killed all hope (i.e. Earendil) that the people of Beleriand had.

After all, Hurin's epithet Thalion ("Steadfast") goes both ways - steadfast in friendship and loyalty (almost to an insane point), and steadfast in utter hatred and destruction of all that he deems responsible for his family's demise (real or imagined).


One other thing - the dragon-spell(s) is very much a real thing in Tolkien's universe (evidenced by this text and The Hobbit, as well The Children of Hurin): which makes Hurin even scarier and his raw hatred for everything and everyone even more formidable, given the fact that he single-handedly managed to control this group of hardened warriors/outlaws possessed by the dragon-spell with his sheer presence, with the outlaws only giving in to temptation (and the resultant battle with Thingol's guards) after Hurin leaves.

Anyway - just a cool little detail.




Another point - I find the Dwarves in CtH faaar more reasonable and behaved than in the previous versions (especially The Nauglafring): in my opinion, having the Dwarves still intent on abducting Melian is just utterly at odds with everything that's been said of them in the new text.

Also, in The Silmarillion, I was always under the impression that the Dwarves just ransacked all of Doriath willy nilly, with no regards to the civilians or their agreement with Thingol - this is simply not the case here; the Dwarves are only intent on:

1) killing Thingol in retribution, and (regrettably) any of his soldiers that get in the way

2) taking their agreed upon payment (with some interest)


The Dwarves only get screwed after they take more than is their due (i.e. Nauglamir with the Silmaril in it).



P.S. The dragon-spell is a hell of a drug!

Also, Asgon most certainly dies (unless he saw the error of his ways and abandoned Hurin before his arrival to Doriath).

[Mithadan]

For those curious about what Aiwendil and Arvegil145 are discussing, "Concerning the Hoard" is linked and extensively discussed here: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19607

[Aiwendil]

Could the evil within mentioned as a possible cause for the downfall of the Girdle of Melian in Concerning... 'The Hoard' be as simple as Hurin's sheer admittance to Doriath?

An interesting argument, though I don't think I really buy that the entrance of Hurin into Doriath in itself was "an evil deed", nor the evil deed that robbed the Girdle of its power.

However, your point at the end has gotten me thinking that perhaps it was really the power of the doubly cursed treasure (cursed by Glaurung and by Mim) that sapped the magic of the Girdle from within. The idea that mere "evil deeds" could defeat the girdle strikes me as rather ad hoc and unsatisfying both from a narrative and a world-building standpoint. But the curse upon the treasure is a real, almost tangible force that Thingol has foolishly allowed to enter into Doriath. And I think that this idea is harmonious with what is said in CTH about the "evil deeds" robbing the Girdle of its power, because those evil deeds are themselves an effect of the curse. Why do these evil deeds weaken the magic of the Girdle? Because they were brought about by the power of the dragon's curse.

Of course, I'm not suggesting we make any statement to this effect in the text. I think I'm for taking the "evil deeds" explanation straight out of CTH and omitting the alternative that Melian removed the Girdle herself. The passage reads like Tolkien still being unsure of what mechanism to use to bypass the Girdle, and so offering two very tentative alternatives. I don't think the intention was that the text of a full telling of the Ruin of Doriath would dither about the reason.

Another point - I find the Dwarves in CtH faaar more reasonable and behaved than in the previous versions (especially The Nauglafring): in my opinion, having the Dwarves still intent on abducting Melian is just utterly at odds with everything that's been said of them in the new text.

Agreed. In fact, the idea of them trying to abduct Melian is directly at odds with the text of CTH, since it states that in their "honesty" they only took that which was owed them, and that the only point in which they wavered from this honesty was the taking of the Nauglamir.

[Arvegil145]

An interesting argument, though I don't think I really buy that the entrance of Hurin into Doriath in itself was "an evil deed", nor the evil deed that robbed the Girdle of its power.

I'm not as convinced - just look at all the realms, as well as the individual people that Hurin's presence alone condemned to.

You could argue that it was just a case of a self-fulfiling prophecy (i.e. Hardang refusing to allow Hurin entry into Brethil, and the subsequent indignities that Hurin suffered, which didn't sit very well with the populace), a staple of tragedies in general...

...but, something here just doesn't feel right - something that Lorgan, the lord of the Easterlings in Hithlum, himself felt IMO when he met Hurin:

...Then hearing that Húrin had not after all the favour of Morgoth, or forswore it, many of Lorgan's men drew their swords to put an end to him. But Lorgan restrained them; for he was wary, and more cunning and wicked than the others, and quicker therefore to guess at the purposes of the Master. - The War of the Jewels, 'The Wanderings of Húrin', p. 253

The Master here, of course, meaning Morgoth.


What I'm trying to say, after all - contrary to my prior opinion on the subject, there might have actually been a metaphysical 'curse' on Hurin and his family, allowed (for whatever Jobian reason) by Iluvatar.




Other than that, I seem to think that we're in complete agreement about the stuff with the Dwarves and Thingol, I guess.

[Aiwendil]

Well, it's a moot point as far as this project is concerned. But it still seems to me that admitting Hurin to Doriath was not an evil deed but only a foolish one. Moreover, if we are considering Morgoth's curse, it had already been admitted to Doriath years earlier when Turin was accepted as a fosterling.

If I'm analyzing the story in a writerly mode, the danger I see with the "evil deeds" explanation is that it may feel too ad hoc - that it feels as if the Girdle fails for no reason other than that this is the moment in the story when the author needs Doriath to be invaded by a hostile force. For me, the notion of the cursed treasure itself being the thing that gnaws away at the strength of the Girdle from within offers a satisfying narrative solution.

Again, though, this is neither here nor there as far as the project goes.

[ArcusCalion]

Activity on the forum!!! a miracle!! I would love to join in, but I must admit that the Ruin of Doriath text is particularly difficult for me to parse at this time. Is there a way to post a full update to the text including the most up-to-date revisions instead of just editing little pieces here and there? It would be very helpful for making sense of it all.

[Val Balmer]

Hi everyone,

As I said in the other post, I'd like to try and give my contribution if I can.

For me the most logical explanation for the girdle not working anymore is the presence of the cursed hoard on which Glaurung (in which a good part of the power of Morgoth has been spent) as slept on the treasure for so long... it makes him a powerful enemy even from dead...

The combiened curses of the dragon and of Mim, triggered by evil (the blood of elves and men spilled on the treasure) in a way activate the curse or increase its power...

[Findegil]

ArcusCalion I have heard you! And I agree that it would be good to have new version in the privat forum. I will work on that as soon as time allows. But bear with me, if it is some days. I am ab it out of training for that kind of exercise, and have to re-check up to which point I work in the new material into my working copy.

About the points discussed: I have read them once, but without the actual text in mind our beside the discussion. So my answers need a new and fresh day.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Before I start editing an updated version for the private forum, lets settle some points:

RD-SL-03.5: The Nauglamír made for Felagund or Thingol? as Said before I am open both ways. And since in Books Forum and here some strong opinions have be raised against a pre-existing Nauglamír I will prepare the text with the Necklace made for Thingol.

RD-SL-05: Okay, we skip the quarrels on the road, even so I found them a nice example of how the curse of Mîm did work.

RD-SL-12: The 'weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making' of the Nauglamír: Sorry, my bad, this must for sure be changed to silver, but the argument that the 'beyond belief' is a supporter for the strife about the agreed 'price of one tithe of the unwrought metals' is none the less valid.

RD-SL-13: Okay, I see what you mean here. As nothing in the newer sources shades any doubt on the earlier decision, the two smithies are out and the dwarves work just once to fashion all the nice things and the Nauglmír.

RD-SL-21: I agree to the last proposal that only the evil deeds should be taken as a reason. I see the logic behind the argument that Húrin brings the curse of Morgoth over all that he deals with even so that will not be mentioned in our text. But more weight has the curse of Mîm and Glaurung on the treasure: Letting Húrin in is done out of pity and can't be an evil deed (it nonetheless can be foolish as Aiwendil said). But in dealing with the treasure Thingol and his Elves start to act evilly: They argue with Húrins men about it (Avarice) and thus in the end kill them (Wrath). And when Melain steps in to warn Thingol about the treasure he still does not follow her advice and hoards it (Pride, Gluttony). Then he goes even farther by inviting the Dwarves to work on it and thus making some use of it, which means showing it forth as his own (Pride). So we can find at least 4 of 7 cardinal sins done inside Doriath by Thingol all trigerd by the accursed hoard.

RD-SL-22: The hunt had been controversially discussed even before we got the new material. Now at the long last I must agree, there is no longer any reason for the hunt of being useful for the story line. I would wish that we could still hold some of the details of Thingols death being caught with the Nauglamír in a bush and rendered helpless in that way, since it is again an excellent example of how Mîm's curse works, but I don't see how we could do that inside Menegroth.
Any how my reasoning for reinstalling Melain’s scenes was that they fitted very well with the girdle being rendered useless and the attack on Menegroth coming as a surprise. I agree that the plan of Naugaldur to carry her is to be skipped. But Naugladur bringing Thingols head on a pole and Melian thus learning of his death and blaming Naugladur and in the same instant telling him that he has domed himself (by taking the Nauglamír) seem very much in agreement with the later conception.

RD-SL-54: I do not see why this shouldn't be said. That the Downfall of Doriath brought some lasting estrangement between Elves and Dwarves is matter of fact. And shown in many conversations in [i]LotR[/b]. And that some Dwarves sided with the evil forces before and after these events is as well attested in earlier and later writings.

I will prepare the text for the private forum to reflect this stand of the discussion, but mark it as 'in progress'.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Val Balmer]

Before I start editing an updated version for the private forum, lets settle some points:


RD-SL-22: The hunt had been controversially discussed even before we got the new material. Now at the long last I must agree, there is no longer any reason for the hunt of being useful for the story line. I would wish that we could still hold some of the details of Thingols death being caught with the Nauglamír in a bush and rendered helpless in that way, since it is again an excellent example of how Mîm's curse works, but I don't see how we could do that inside Menegroth.
Any how my reasoning for reinstalling Melain’s scenes was that they fitted very well with the girdle being rendered useless and the attack on Menegroth coming as a surprise. I agree that the plan of Naugaldur to carry her is to be skipped. But Naugladur bringing Thingols head on a pole and Melian thus learning of his death and blaming Naugladur and in the same instant telling him that he has domed himself (by taking the Nauglamír) seem very much in agreement with the later conception.
Respectfully

Findegil

Sorry if I came back to this point, but I don't understand why we should remove the hunt. In absence of any explicit statement of Tolkien removing it, I would keep the whole scene as in TN. The theme of tragedy during important festival is important to Tolkien. Furthermore the fact that Thingol cannot organize the defense of Doriath, explains better why the dwarves are able to sack it.

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-54: That the ruin of Doriath led to an estrangement between Dwarves and Elves is not, I think, in dispute. The part I object to is "and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]". Even if some Dwarves did turn to Morgoth, in the later conception this seems to have been an infrequent thing, and it doesn't seem appropriate to state it here as if it applies broadly to all or most Dwarves. Whereas "Concerning 'The Hoard'" says of the Dwarves that they were "no servants of the Evil Vala".

So I would make this:


RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves{, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]}.

Sorry if I came back to this point, but I don't understand why we should remove the hunt. In absence of any explicit statement of Tolkien removing it, I would keep the whole scene as in TN. The theme of tragedy during important festival is important to Tolkien. Furthermore the fact that Thingol cannot organize the defense of Doriath, explains better why the dwarves are able to sack it.

"Concerning 'The Hoard'" strongly implies, to me at least, that Thingol was killed during the attack on Menegroth. Reintroducing the hunt from TN seemed justified to me as a way of implementing the idea of Thingol being lured beyond the Girdle. With that idea gone, I don't see any compelling reason to reintroduce it, and I see a reason against it in "Concerning 'The Hoard'".

[Val Balmer]

"Concerning 'The Hoard'" strongly implies, to me at least, that Thingol was killed during the attack on Menegroth. Reintroducing the hunt from TN seemed justified to me as a way of implementing the idea of Thingol being lured beyond the Girdle. With that idea gone, I don't see any compelling reason to reintroduce it, and I see a reason against it in "Concerning 'The Hoard'".

The only passage in CtH related to the death of Thingol is this:
"The dwarf-host entered Doriath and most of Thingol’s warriors perished. His halls were violated and he himself slain."

It is so much compressed that it cannot imply anything, at least for me :)

Furthermore, in the original tale it does not seem to me that Thingol is lured outside the girdle, but only outside of Menegroth, and this justifies the lack of organisation of the elven armies.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-54: Agreed on the part of the estrangement. But I still find the "drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]" justified. Look at the senece in Rivendell: Gloin came there to ask for some counsel but nearly he did broke up the Council of Elrond by bring up some old grudge against King Thranduil. We can read in his report of Dain's dealing with the messenger from Mordor that he is temped to buy that peace giving out some information. And Dain is the king of the Longbeards, the one house of Dwarves most friendly with the Elves.

I agree that the statment is very general, but that is rather an argument to include it than for execlusion. It is not said that all Dwarves were from that point onward under the shadow nor that any particular Dwarves were. It rather said that overall the Dwarves tended more to side with the forces in oppostion to the Elves. And that is found true easily: Already we know from Dwarves and Men that probably 3 of the 7 Houses were under the shadow. Up to that point the two Beleraindic Houses and the Longbeards could be called freindly to the Elves. Thus it needs nothing more than the Nogrod Dwarves estranged from the Elves to make that statement true.

About the hunt: The question here is, if it is an removal or if the hunt was removed by Tolkien. Q30 still includes the hunt, CtH does not. But CCtH is very condensed and if I compare Q30 to the The later Annals of Beleriand from the same time, we can see that compression can lead to the lose of details such as the hunt without them being skipped. But in The later Annals ... still the sequence of events is the same:
- Dwarves invade Doriath
- Thingol was slain
- Thousand Caves were plundered
And that is true even in the later Tale of the Years. In all of its versions from A to D. But the dating of these versions is not given so that we can only deduce from the story of Celegorm and Curufin fighting against the Dwarves at the Ford that they were written between 1951-2 (when the Grey Annals were written) too 1963 (when the fight at the Ford was given Back to Beren).
But it is changed now in CtH were it is:
- Dwarves entered Doriath
- Thousand Caves were violated
- Thingol was slain
This is an evidence for a changed story. But it does not rule out the hunt absoultley. What seem more telling for me is the fact the the violation of his halls and Thingols death are mentioned in one single sentence, while the enterance to Doriath and the perishing most of Thingol's warriors is in a seperated sentence.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Just to let of all you know: I have posted the text of this chapter as it stands now in the private forum. You will find both: a text with editing marked and a plain text. Enjoy the read.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Concerning the hunt, I agree with Findegil that the hunt still works.

Greetings

[Arvegil145]

About the hunt: while I'm not sure about its relevance in the later version, I still think the hunt in itself is a nice piece of worldbuilding, which, even if we cut it out from the ruin of Doriath, should be mentioned somewhere.


Also, Findegil, I see on the private forum that you decided to keep the part where Thingol offers the outlaws a share of the treasure - but given what we've seen in 'Concerning... The Hoard', I can't help but disagree.

While the new version is pretty condensed, I think that the gist of it is that the outlaws didn't just want a few trinkets here and there: they claimed the entire hoard, as did Thingol!

The outlaws, released from the presence of Húrin, claimed that it was theirs, won by their weapons and labour. Fighting broke out, even in the inviolable halls of Thingol.

This quote IMO implies that there was never any possibility of a compromise (or payment to the outlaws short of the whole treasure) - probably due to the curse(s).


Additionally, I think we should replace all the references to Thingol's obsession with gold in The Nauglafring with silver (as per 'Concerning'): such as references to a helm of gold, a hilt of gold, golden trappings for his steed, etc.

I also have a problem with this line:

...and indeed it was one of their grievances of old against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there. Therefore Naugladur vowed to rest not ere Mîm was thrice avenged...

Given the sheer contempt in which the Petty-dwarves were held by by their 'greater' counterparts in the later writings, I find this part implausible.

It's true that in the 'Concerning' there is this line:

Also (they now urged) the treasure had been taken with violence and murder from a Dwarf (though Mim was not in fact akin to the Dwarves of the eastern mountains).

But judging by the context, this is merely a rationalization for them taking more than is their due. I seriously doubt that Naugladur would care one bit about Mim - certainly not to the point of publicly proclaiming that he would avenge him thricefold.

[Arvegil145]

Actually, now that I think about it, there might be a problem with the idea of Thingol dying in Menegroth - the problem being Melian of course (unless we go with the 'Melian abandoned Thingol' interpretation of the Girdle's disappearance).

Let's say that we do combine the hunt with 'Concerning', a plausible sequence of events might go like this:

1) Thingol and his retinue are ambushed somewhere in Doriath

2) Most of his warriors perish

3) Thingol and the remaining warriors retreat to Menegroth

4) Thingol makes a final stand there, and is killed


But...where is Melian in all of this? She is, after all, a powerful entity, a Maia. Surely she could've helped somehow (if she wanted to)?

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-54: Agreed on the part of the estrangement. But I still find the "drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]" justified. Look at the senece in Rivendell: Gloin came there to ask for some counsel but nearly he did broke up the Council of Elrond by bring up some old grudge against King Thranduil. We can read in his report of Dain's dealing with the messenger from Mordor that he is temped to buy that peace giving out some information. And Dain is the king of the Longbeards, the one house of Dwarves most friendly with the Elves.

I agree that the statment is very general, but that is rather an argument to include it than for execlusion. It is not said that all Dwarves were from that point onward under the shadow nor that any particular Dwarves were. It rather said that overall the Dwarves tended more to side with the forces in oppostion to the Elves. And that is found true easily: Already we know from Dwarves and Men that probably 3 of the 7 Houses were under the shadow. Up to that point the two Beleraindic Houses and the Longbeards could be called freindly to the Elves. Thus it needs nothing more than the Nogrod Dwarves estranged from the Elves to make that statement true.

I still disagree. There was a very clear change in Tolkien's opinion about Dwarves over the course of his writings, and even if we could perform the logical contortions needed to allow that the statement from TN might still not technically contradict any definite statements from later works, the statement is of a piece with the earlier conception of Dwarves, and I see no reason to retain it when that is removed.

Moreover, I think the statement as written simply can't be technically correct. It says that the Dwarves (i.e. as a whole) have drawn more nigh in friendship to the kin of Melko than to the Elves. Yet, for all that there is clearly some antipathy between Elves and Dwarves, we have many examples of them peacefully coexisting in later ages and little in the way of actual violence between them. On the other hand, we have only sporadic hints of Dwarves in later ages actually allying with Sauron or the other former followers of Morgoth, and we have plenty of violence between them, even with a special enmity between Dwarves and Orcs (followers of Morgoth).

About the hunt: The question here is, if it is an removal or if the hunt was removed by Tolkien. Q30 still includes the hunt, CtH does not. But CCtH is very condensed and if I compare Q30 to the The later Annals of Beleriand from the same time, we can see that compression can lead to the lose of details such as the hunt without them being skipped. But in The later Annals ... still the sequence of events is the same:
- Dwarves invade Doriath
- Thingol was slain
- Thousand Caves were plundered
And that is true even in the later Tale of the Years. In all of its versions from A to D. But the dating of these versions is not given so that we can only deduce from the story of Celegorm and Curufin fighting against the Dwarves at the Ford that they were written between 1951-2 (when the Grey Annals were written) too 1963 (when the fight at the Ford was given Back to Beren).
But it is changed now in CtH were it is:
- Dwarves entered Doriath
- Thousand Caves were violated
- Thingol was slain
This is an evidence for a changed story. But it does not rule out the hunt absoultley. What seem more telling for me is the fact the the violation of his halls and Thingols death are mentioned in one single sentence, while the enterance to Doriath and the perishing most of Thingol's warriors is in a seperated sentence.

I think that the parsing out of a sequence of events here is unfounded. Look at these sentences from AB2, the Tale of Years, and 'Concerning "The Hoard"':

Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves were plun-
dered

Thingol is slain, and his realm ended.

His halls were violated and he himself slain.

In none of these do we have a sequence of events. "Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves were plundered" does not tell us in what order those two events occurred, nor does "His halls were violated and he himself slain." I think that the farthest we can go in teasing out any kind of sequence of events from these is to say that in all of them, the Dwarves enter Doriath first, and both the sacking of Menegroth and the death of Thingol occur afterward. (In this, all three differ from the version imagined in the note where Thingol was lured beyond his borders). But they say nothing about the order of Thingol's death and the sacking.

Which is all to say that despite my reluctance to keep the hunt, I don't see that CtH presents any difficulties for it from a sequence-of-events perspective. I had also forgotten that the hunt was still present in Q. So I'm now less opposed to retaining it.

Given the sheer contempt in which the Petty-dwarves were held by by their 'greater' counterparts in the later writings, I find this part implausible.

I'm not sure that this contradicts the line you object to. One might hold another group in contempt and still object to their being hunted for sport. Moreover, since this text comes in the context of explaining the attack of the Dwarves against Doriath, the "rationalization" is pertinent, even if it is only a rationalization.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-54: I am not adamnat on this. If you really think it is out of line here, we can skip it.

The Hunt: The death of Thingol is easier to be understood with the hunt included: If he is huntig, he is outside his strong hold, he is away from most of his warriors, he is away from Melian. Beside that the only details that we have about his death and how the curse of Mîm took a part in it, are from an outside place, not from inside Menegroth (even so we know that the caves had a rebuild naturalistic look). As the Hunt is never really contradicted, but only leftout possibly due to compression, I think the above mentioned reason might be enough to keep the hunt.

Arvegil145: Your sequence can work, but I don't see evidence to incould it in our text.

RD-SL-08: Okay, if the outlaws are unable to compromise, what about this edditing::§288 (§17b) RD-EX-20.1 <TN Now therefore did those of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur,> {The}the outlaws, released from the presence of Húrin, claimed that it was theirs, won by their weapons and labour.{ Fighting broke out, even in the inviolable halls of Thingol.}RD-SL-08c <TN {and}And one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.'
RD-EX-20.11<TN, move from below Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold.> Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol] for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: ‘Nay then, know ye not that this gold belongs to the kindred of the Elves in common, for the {Rodothlim}[Noldor] who won it from the earth long time ago are no more, and no one has especial claim' to so much as a handful save only {Úrin}[Húrin] by reason of his son Túrin, who slew the Worm, the robber of the Elves; yet Túrin is dead and {Úrin}[Húrin] will have none of it; and Túrin was my man.{’}
(§19) {At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath, until the king said: }‘Get ye now gone, and seek not O foolish ones to quarrel with the Elves of the forest, lest death or the dread enchantments of Valinor find you in the woods. Neither revile ye the name of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] their king, for I will reward you richly enough for your travail and the bringing of the gold. Let each one now approach and take what he may grasp with either hand, and then depart in peace.’
§290 (§20) {Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold; but the wild folk did as they were bid, and yet more, for some went into the hoard twice and thrice, and angry cries were raised in that hall. Then would the woodland Elves hinder them of their thieving, and a great dissension arose, so that though the king would stay them none heeded him. Then did those outlaws}RD-EX-20.12 <TN, moved from above At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath,> and[/b] being fierce and fearless folk draw swords and deal blows about them, so {that}RD-EX-20.13 <TN, moved from above [u]even though the king would stay them none heeded him, and> soon there was a great fight even upon the steps of the high-seat of the king.
Doughty were those outlaws and great wielders of sword and axe from their warfare with Orcs, so that many were slain ere the king, seeing that peace and pardon might no longer be, summoned a host of his warriors, and those outlaws RD-EX-20.2{being wildered with the stronger magics of the king' and }confused in the dark ways of the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] were all slain fighting bitterly; but the king's hall ran with gore, and the gold that lay before his throne, scattered and spurned by trampling feet, was drenched with blood. Thus did the curse of Mîm the Dwarf RD-EX-20.25b begin its course; and yet another sorrow sown by the {Noldoli}[Noldor] of old in Valinor was come to fruit.
Then were the bodies of the RD-EX-20.3{outlaws cast forth, but the woodland Elves that were }slain {Tinwelint let bury}buried nigh to the knoll of Tinúviel,> RD-EX-20.4<Q30 and the howe wherein they were laid in Doriath was named {Cum-nan-Arasaith,} the Mound of Avarice.>I had to change the sequence of the sentences a bit, to have Thingol trying to keep peace, but beeing denied by the outlaws.

{gold}[silver]: You think that the complete hoard of Nargothrond should be more silver than gold? That would make sense in many places in our text. But in the end the Ascar is named 'Goldenbed' not 'Silverbed'. So gold has to remain ar considerable part of the hoard.

About the hunting down of the Petty-Dwarves as grievance for the Dwarves of Nogrod: I agree fully to Aiwendil here. It is one thing to have a feud among your own people, but if some one from outside does kill them is another matter. And anyhow it is Tolkien telling us about this in the same mix of interrests (First pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of Ered luin, than the Grey-Elves hunting Petty-Dwarves, the Dwarves of Ered Luin builing up good buisness with the Grey-Elves and helping Felagund to build Nargothrond and by that pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of their home, and then at last searching for some propaganda-reason to fight with Thingol, when the real intention is just to get the Hoard.) The same goes for the violent death of Mîm. It is just propaganda for Naugladur. And in thi scase it can even be seen easily: Mîm was killed and robbed by Húrin and his Men, but the revenge that Naugladur plans is on Thingol.

By the way: Since we hear now that Mîm was not of the kin of Nogrod, but we now that the Petty-Dwarves were driven from the mansions in the Ered Luin, we can now be sure that it was from Belegost that they had come. We could guess that before, since the news of Mîm's death reached Belegost first, but hear we have now a confirmation.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

The Hunt: The death of Thingol is easier to be understood with the hunt included: If he is huntig, he is outside his strong hold, he is away from most of his warriors, he is away from Melian. Beside that the only details that we have about his death and how the curse of Mîm took a part in it, are from an outside place, not from inside Menegroth (even so we know that the caves had a rebuild naturalistic look). As the Hunt is never really contradicted, but only leftout possibly due to compression, I think the above mentioned reason might be enough to keep the hunt.

Arvegil145: Your sequence can work, but I don't see evidence to incould it in our text.

It's alright, my 'sequence' was just a thought experiment anyway.

As to the Hunt, while I still lean toward the idea that Thingol died in Menegroth (as per an interpretation of 'Concerning'), I'm fine either way.


RD-SL-08: Okay, if the outlaws are unable to compromise, what about this edditing:I had to change the sequence of the sentences a bit, to have Thingol trying to keep peace, but beeing denied by the outlaws.

Most of it is fine, but my original complaint was that I believe that it was Thingol who started the fight according to 'Concerning': however, the passage in question is vague enough to be interpreted either way, it's just that I think that the curse of Mim/Glaurung/Morgoth/whomever worked its way really quickly on Thingol in the later conception, potentially leading him to commit some heinous deeds.

But again, I'm fine with either interpretation.


{gold}[silver]: You think that the complete hoard of Nargothrond should be more silver than gold? That would make sense in many places in our text. But in the end the Ascar is named 'Goldenbed' not 'Silverbed'. So gold has to remain ar considerable part of the hoard.

Not at all - I'm sure there was plenty of gold in the hoard.

My problem was that in The Nauglafring, Tinwelint's obsession was with gold, not silver; and in the 'Concerning' it is the other way around (cf. the two silver thrones for himself and Melian, and the Nauglamir being made of silver - paralleling Thranduil in The Hobbit).

With that in mind, whatever trinkets made for Tinwelint in TN (i.e. gold helm, gold hilt, etc.) should be changed to 'silver', to reflect the thematic change in the 'Concerning'.


About the hunting down of the Petty-Dwarves as grievance for the Dwarves of Nogrod: I agree fully to Aiwendil here. It is one thing to have a feud among your own people, but if some one from outside does kill them is another matter. And anyhow it is Tolkien telling us about this in the same mix of interrests (First pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of Ered luin, than the Grey-Elves hunting Petty-Dwarves, the Dwarves of Ered Luin builing up good buisness with the Grey-Elves and helping Felagund to build Nargothrond and by that pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of their home, and then at last searching for some propaganda-reason to fight with Thingol, when the real intention is just to get the Hoard.) The same goes for the violent death of Mîm. It is just propaganda for Naugladur. And in thi scase it can even be seen easily: Mîm was killed and robbed by Húrin and his Men, but the revenge that Naugladur plans is on Thingol.

I guess the 'Mim being thrice avenged' and the line before that can be interpreted as propaganda/rationalization. I'm still hesitant about it, but you and Aiwendil made a decent argument.


By the way: Since we hear now that Mîm was not of the kin of Nogrod, but we now that the Petty-Dwarves were driven from the mansions in the Ered Luin, we can now be sure that it was from Belegost that they had come. We could guess that before, since the news of Mîm's death reached Belegost first, but hear we have now a confirmation.

You're wrong about this, though.

In the 'Concerning', both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost took part in the invasion of Doriath:

At last in an unhappy hour he sent for the Dwarves of the Mountains to the east from Belegost and Nogrod.

and after that

Back in their mountains’ strongholds they plotted revenge, and not long after they came down with a great force and invaded Doriath.

which leads me to

Also (they now urged) the treasure had been taken with violence and murder from a Dwarf (though Mim was not in fact akin to the Dwarves of the eastern mountains).

So, in the 'Concerning' at least, Mim was not related to either the Dwarves of Nogrod or Belegost.


P.S. The idea that it was only the Dwarves of Nogrod that attacked Doriath comes from 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn', right? But that text was written in the '50s, while 'Concerning... The Hoard' dates from c. 1964.

Is there any text later than 'Concerning... The Hoard' that has only the Dwarves of Nogrod take part in the invasion?

[Arvegil145]

There's an interesting comment by Hammond and Scull, in regards to 'Concerning... The Hoard', from lotrplaza.com:

With regard to the ruin of Doriath, the story told in the 1964 manuscript is closer to the Quenta Noldorinwa (not published until 1986) than to The Nauglafring in The Book of Lost Tales, but differs in some respects from any published version — for instance, before beginning work on the treasure, the dwarves agree to accept a payment of a tenth of the unwrought metals. Thingol, however, is still killed outside Menegroth, with Tolkien giving two possible reasons why the dwarves were able to pass the Girdle of Melian.

My emphasis.

It seems that either Hammond and Scull misremembered the text, or, more intriguingly, came to a different conclusion regarding the death of Thingol.

The full quote is found on TG: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Concerning_..._%27The_Hoard%27

[Aiwendil]

In the 'Concerning', both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost took part in the invasion of Doriath

'Concerning "The Hoard"' says only that Thingol sent for the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost. It does not say that the emissaries and craftsmen who came to Menegroth were from both cities, much less that both groups took part in the attack.

Since Belegost and Nogrod are so frequently mentioned together, it also seems at least possible to me that mentioning both of them in CtH was a slip of the pen, and that he had momentarily forgotten the decision that Belegost was not involved.

Lacking a more definitive statement about it, I'm inclined to retain the story that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved.

About the hunt: I can see the argument either way. I'll agree to whichever consensus others come to on this one.

[Val Balmer]

I mostly agree with Aiwendil in his two latest posts.

Personally, I would keep the hunt story and involve only the dwarves of Belegost.

[Arvegil145]

'Concerning "The Hoard"' says only that Thingol sent for the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost. It does not say that the emissaries and craftsmen who came to Menegroth were from both cities, much less that both groups took part in the attack.

Since Belegost and Nogrod are so frequently mentioned together, it also seems at least possible to me that mentioning both of them in CtH was a slip of the pen, and that he had momentarily forgotten the decision that Belegost was not involved.

Lacking a more definitive statement about it, I'm inclined to retain the story that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved.

About the hunt: I can see the argument either way. I'll agree to whichever consensus others come to on this one.

Did you notice the plural in:

Back in their mountains’ strongholds they plotted revenge, and not long after they came down with a great force and invaded Doriath.

That plus:

Also (they now urged) the treasure had been taken with violence and murder from a Dwarf (though Mim was not in fact akin to the Dwarves of the eastern mountains)

The context of which to me at least heavily suggests that both Nogrod and Belegost were involved.

[Findegil]

RD-SL-18 /that is this edirtin mark dedicated to inclusion/execlusion of the Dwarves from Belegost): Arvegil145 arguments with the plurals are convincing, to me at least, that throughout CtH Dwarves from both Nogrod and Belegost are involved. It is not unthinkable as Aiwendil argued that the reversal of the decision taken by Tolkien in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn to leave the Belegost Dwarves out was a kind of consecutive slip of the pen. But I think that argument could be made of many, many changes in the story line of this particular chapter, as Tolkien changed his mind nearly as often as his shirt.
So lets look on the text itself for some weighing: In Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn the information about the Belgost Dwarves is given in a kind of side note. It seems their intended to explain why the Elves of Eriador under Galadriel could build up a good relation to the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm. It has its short comings for that function anyway, since not only the Dwarves of Belegost wandered to Khazad-dûm after the destruction of Beleriand but the Dwarves of Nogrod (involved for sure in the Fall of Doriath) as well.
CtH, on the other hand, is a text concerned spezially with the story of the Fall Doriath. Tolkien might not have thought about the implication it had for the story of Ost-in-Edhil if he involved the Belegost Dwarves, but he clearly had no reasons springing from the story of the Nauglamír to reject them. And, for me at least, their inclusion also means that this did not creat a glaring problem in any other story, otherwise Tolkien would probabaly have realised it.

Long story made short: I think we have to re-insert the Dwarves of Belegost into the fighting.

Now that will raise some farther question:
- In TN the Dwarves of Bodruith and Naugladur have names of their own: Indrafangs and Nauglath. So fare we did replaced both by Naugrim which was teh generic name for all Dwarves encountered by the Eldar in Beleriand (so both from Nogrod and Belegost but not neccesarrily or only by transmission for the Long-beards of Khazad-dûm or other kindereds of the Dwarves). That was okay as long as the Noford Dwarves where the only kind present, but now we might wish to re-establish the distincion.
- the name of the Lord of the Indrafangs 'Bodruith' signified something like 'revenge'. As that now back as a motive of his actions, we should re-establich his name as well.
- If we take the splited forces of the attacking Dwarves as they acted in TN, I think we should make Bodruith the leader of the first invader of Menegroth talking to Melian before Naugladur enters.
- What is about the treachary of Bodruith against Naugladur on the way back and following infight among the Dwarves? It would fit the theme of the curse of Mîm and help explain why Beren with a hand full of Green-Elves could annihilate an army that the full muster of Doriath could not even stop from plundering Menegroth.
- If we take that treachary of Bodruith in again, who comes than to the timely rescue of Naugladur?

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: If I would be in for more Fan-Fictional versions of the story, I would take Ibûn, the son of Mîm, into the story: He would after the death of Mîm search his way to Belegost and their been admitted 'back' into the societie out of pity. He would thus be the source of the information abouts Mîm violent death by the hands of Húrin and his Outlaws. Triggering the final descision to march against Doriath. Following Bodruith into the Battle of Menegorth he might than be the one to talk to Melian and take as well the rolle of Ufedhin in the treachary of Bodruith. As murder of his new lord he could hardly go back to Belegost and thus would fly into the woods 'for he could
not endure to look upon the eyes of Gwendelin, and madness took
him, and none may say what was his unhappy weird thereafter;
and little but a tortured heart got he from the Gold of Glorund.'

[Arvegil145]

While I agree that if we keep both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost in, Bodruith should also stay in.

However, this is where we run into the old dilemma of what to do with the very early names - maybe we should just keep the Lord of Belegost unnamed.

[Aiwendil]

Tolkien might not have thought about the implication it had for the story of Ost-in-Edhil if he involved the Belegost Dwarves, but he clearly had no reasons springing from the story of the Nauglamír to reject them. And, for me at least, their inclusion also means that this did not creat a glaring problem in any other story, otherwise Tolkien would probabaly have realised it.

It's that last part that I don't fully agree with. Tolkien may very well have written CtH with the intention that the Dwarves of Belegost took part in the Ruin of Doriath without it occurring to him that this created a problem for the story of Ost-in-Edhil.

However, Arvegil has at least convinced me of the first bit - that CtH in itself does imply that the attack on Menegroth was made by the Dwarves of both kingdoms.

I think a case could still be made for retaining the version in "Concerning Celeborn and Galadriel". But as it seems that others are inclined to reintroduce Belegost into the attack, I won't stand in the way of that. The matter of how to do this in the text is significantly trickier, and I will need to mull over Findegil's ideas above.

[gondowe]

I agree to Belegost part in the atack on Menegroth. I think is the story Tolkien had in mind in the 60s despite he 'could' have thougt another solution in 1955.
For my part I would change Indrafangs, etc for the general Naugrim. And the names of the Lords deriving from other traditions. But is a solution that I take in the context of my Thain's Book project.

Greetings.

[Findegil]

There was a discussion about 'Bodruith' as a name back in the past. The result was that the deficiant Sindarin would be okay, since the name is an outer Dwarve name and could be formed imperfectly by the Dwarves from any dialect the Belegost Dwarves had contact with. That would allow for any kind of imperfections.
The name was than skipped because it means 'revenge' and as the Belegost dwarves were taken out of the fight in Menegroth the reference for the name was lost.

For me that means when we take the Belegost Dwarves back into the fight, the name is back 'Bodruith' is back as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

There was a discussion about 'Bodruith' as a name back in the past. The result was that the deficiant Sindarin would be okay, since the name is an outer Dwarve name and could be formed imperfectly by the Dwarves from any dialect the Belegost Dwarves had contact with. That would allow for any kind of imperfections.
The name was than skipped because it means 'revenge' and as the Belegost dwarves were taken out of the fight in Menegroth the reference for the name was lost.

For me that means when we take the Belegost Dwarves back into the fight, the name is back 'Bodruith' is back as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

I believe that the etymology of the term bodruith ("revenge") was struck through by Tolkien, as per Parma Eldalamberon 11, p. 23.

However, the term (also meaning "revenge") later appears in the 'Noldorin Word-lists' in PE 13, p. 139.

[Findegil]

Anyhow we must not give the meanig if we have some doubts about it. We could simply use the name.

Respectfull
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Anyhow we must not give the meanig if we have some doubts about it. We could simply use the name.

Respectfull
Findegil

I agree. Even though I still have my problems with the early names: but since I'm (sort of) active on the 'Vinye Lambengolmor' Discord (which includes many prominent experts on the Elvish tongues, such as Paul Strack of the Eldamo), I'll try to ask for their advice on 'updating' these early Elvish names to a more fitting later conception of the Elven languages.

[Arvegil145]

I just remembered a late text (c. 1969) from the NoME that IMO implies that it was both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost that took part in the attack on Doriath:

NB: the 'invention' ascribed to Dwarves by Elrond was of the invisible runes in moonletters only. All the same do not exaggerate Dwarvish linguistic ability. Though devised by the Sindar (owing to their enmity with the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost) it is probable (and was held true by the Noldor) that the idea of runes cut in stone etc. was derived ultimately from the Dwarves who had friendship with the sons of Fëanor. - The Nature of Middle-earth, 'Part Three', 'Chapter XIX: Note on Dwarvish Voices', p. 371

The 'devised by Sindar' here refers to Cirth.

[Findegil]

But that quote must be meant for the time before the Fall of Doriath. Because when that 'enmity' caused by the Fall of Doriath came into being, Caranthir's rule ofer Talath Rhúnen had long fallen. Thus it must refer to some other earlier 'enmity' shared by both Nogrod and Belegost.

But anyhow, we already agreed that Belegost took part in the attack on Doriath.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

RD-EX-40b: Changed to the effect of the dwarves asking to put the Nauglír together with the Silmaril.

This seems to be in contradiction to earlier:

RD-EX-29c <TN {Wherefore he }summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems (for much was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril.> With them he had dealings and some friendship, and long ago they had helped in the building of his grand underground halls and palace.

It seems to me that it can't (or shouldn't?) be both Thingol's plan and the Dwarves'.

[Findegil]

Despite my comment on it, the text in RD-EX-40b is edited so that the dwarves ask Thingol to give them the Silmaril for the task and not for the task itself. But it is a fine line we are walking and if you find the result not clear enough, we probably have to work on it.

But are we decided in all points? I will try a resume, going through all RD-SL-xx editing’s (“nothing changed” in the list, means we did not change anything following the CtH text) and add some of RD-EX-yy issues if they are undecided or new. In the process of editing the text some of the RD-SL-xx markers have been lost. In the next version of the text, I will reintroduce them. For easier understanding I will give in my list a short description of the issue and how we solved it or if I did not find consens my opinion on it.

RD-SL-00.5: CtH is the leading text for the story line from this point onward.

RD-SL-01: This is the forming of Húrin’s band, from a group from Brethil that did not like to serve Avranc, a group from Brethil that despaired in defending Brethil, some of the wood-men south of Taeglin, some homeless fugitives and the following of Asgon. Nothing changed.

RD-SL-02: Húrin’s decision to go to Nargothrond. Nothing changed.

RD-SL-03: Mîm’s death and the question who killed him and how. Húrin hit him, but one of his Band brought the curse of Androg home and killed him with an arrow through his throat pinning him to a beech trunk. Nothing changed.

RD-SL-03.5: Was the Nauglamîr made earlier for Finrod or was it created during the work of the dwarfs in Menegroth? We decided for the later.

RD-SL-04: The curse of Mîm upon the hoard. Nothing changed.

RD-SL-05: The quarrels of the outlaws upon the road to Doriath. We decided not to include them, since we do not need them as tool to get rid of the outlaws.

RD-SL-06: Húrin and his band passing the girdle. Solved by them being stopped by the guards (changed from the door wardens of Menegroth to the boarder guards of Doriath) and asking for admittance, which was granted by Thingol. Nothing changed.

RD-SL-07: Final fate of Húrin: Húrin leaves the hoard behind and goes alone and un-healed. His death in the sea is reported as a rumor. Nothing changed.

RD-SL-08: The fight between the outlaws and the Elves has to be reintroduced due to CtH.

RD-SL-09: As the outlaws are all killed, it is no question that they did not carry any part of the hoard away from Menegroth.

RD-SL-10: What was the final fate of the outlaws: None of them survives.

RD-SL-11: CtH makes it clear that Thingol himself is infected by the ‘dragon-sickness’, without someone (Ufedhin in TN) dragging him.

RD-SL-12: The engagement of the Dwarves and the details of the contract are now clearer.

RD-SL-13: Does Thingol ask the dwarves to make the Nauglamír or do they ask him? CtH does not address this issue. But only in the early TN the making the idea of the Dwarves (or Ufedhin). In any later text it is Thingol’s intention, so I think we stick to that. But least I think the Dwarves must ask Thingol to get the Silmaril for that work and he did only agree to it when he might be with them during the work.

RD-SL-14: Do the dwarven-smith already plan to get the Silmaril into their possession? As I read CtH it does not force us in any direction here. A lust for the Silmaril and some claims laid onto it by the smiths does not rule out that later attackers felt fully honest as long as they only took the promised loan and their ‘interests’ and only failed when they took the Nauglamír (no question because of the same lust for the Silmaril that already had been felt by the smiths). And in a way CtH does support this, since I don’t think the “warning of the wisest among them“ against taking the Nauglamír would be uttered on the spot when Naugladur took the Necklace. It was rather given when “Naugladur hold a secret council of the Dwarves of Nogrod, and sought how he might both be avenged upon {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and sate his greed.”

RD-SL-15: CtH makes it clear that Thingol really scanted his promised reward and gives his motive.

RD-SL-16: The Smiths are no longer forced out of Menegroth but go by their own choice without any reward.

RD-SL-17: There for we have no fight between the smiths and the Elves and no Dwarf killed (beside Mîm) at this stage. (This makes the dwarvish claim in The Hobbit much more fitting.)

RD-SL-18: The Dwarves from Belegost are back in the fight and with them Bodruith their leader.
General Change {Indrafangs}[?] and {Nauglath}[?]: Since up to now we had only the Dwarves of Nogrod in the fight the question to separate them by a name was not important. We adopted therefore {Nauglath}[Naugrim] and {Indrafangs}[dwarves] to have less repetition during the campaign against Doriath and if it still referred to them added the qualifier ‘of Belegost’. But that has to be changed now and it would be good for many reasons if we could name the kindreds differently. I would go here by the meaning and replace Nauglath for the Dwarves of Nogord by Broadbeams since both refer to some element of the bodily stature and Indrafangs for the Dwarves of Belegost by Firebeards, since both refer to the beards. We discussed that before, and decided not to address the question if the Firebeards were the Belegost dwarves and the Broadbeams the Nogrod dwarves or vice versa since there was no reason to do. But now I think we have a reason and should take the risc to decide. For sure we keep {Nauglath}[Naugrim] for the rest of our text when the reference is more general.

RD-SL-19: In CtH the violent death of Mîm and that the hoard was raped from him is back as a motive for the Dwarves.

RD-EX-51.1: Bodruith as the name of the Lord of Belegost at the time of the Ruin of Doriath. For me it is back in the Tale since the meaning of it is valid after the Belegost Dwarves are back in the fight, and even if the orthography is no longer fitting Sindarin that is okay since the outer names of Dwarves must not fit that language perfectly.

RD-EX-54 & RD-EX-54.5: I find the addition from UT very fitting and valuable here. So what if we put in a qualifier: §307 (§33) RD-EX-54b <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and <editorial addition in the view of the Elves> drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]. RD-EX-54.5 < Unfinished Tales; Galadriel and Celeborn {Evidently not a lover of Dwarves, but one who looked only on their bad side (or knew no other side). He}This had some justification, for though no servants of the Evil Vala, the Dwarves were by nature and origin specially open to the degeneration of their love and admiration {[[the word “for” is corrected to “}of{”, written above the original word]]} works of “craft” into a fierce possessiveness. >Secretly he let send …
RD-SL-20: The treachery of some Elves is now no longer needed for anything. But under this marker we as well discussed the inclusion or exclusion of the hunt. Reading backwards through our discussion, I think we agreed in the end (all hesitatingly) to include it.

RD-SL-21: The Girdle is now made useless by the evil deeds within.

RD-EX-60b: Do we include the scene with Melian in Menegroth before the attack? Does anything speak against that?

RD-SL-22: Since we include the hunt, the details of Thingol’s death with Silmaril hanging to a bush and deliver him to Naugladur’s nonexciting merci are as well included.

RD-EX-60c: Do we include the scene with Melian in Menegroth during the attack? For me, yes and I would try to keep the role Ufedhin took here and later intact and give it to an unnamed Dwarf.

RD-SL-23: Melian is not mentioned in CtH in this part and the message of the first Fall of Doriath to Beren is given to fugitives. We took up Melian’s farther fate from TN where she later comes to Lúthien and Beren and warns them about the curse upon the Nauglamîr. And then her final fate from TY where she returned to Valinor. Nothing changed.

RD-EX-71.1: The infighting in dwarfish army - do we include it? For me it is the logical consequence of taking back in the Dwarves from Belegost and Bodruith their Lord.

RD-EX-71.2: Who slays Bodruith? For me this is the same unnamed Dwarf that talked to Melian. But it makes the reference a bit difficult.

RD-SL-24: The fighting of the dwarves is in Beren’s hands supported by CtH and Letter no. 247. Nothing changed.

RD-SL-25: Our version of a (small) company of Green-elves is confirmed by CtH where Berens fighters are called “a force”, which name I would adopt.

RD-SL-26: The fight of Beren against Naugladur is still unchanged from TN.

RD-SL-27: This point was as well settled for good by CtH. The Fight is at a ford over Ascar, therefore no need for the Greenelves to transport it. Part already fell into the water part was flung into it without any need to carry it far.

RD-SL-28: Lúthien still wears the Silmaril for a time. Nothing changed.

RD-SL-29: CtH still has Dior going to Doriath. Nothing changed.

RD-SL-30: Here we end the usage of CtH as basis for our story line. And Q30 becomes again our basic text.

Maybe this will help to get the discussion focused on the points left undecided.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello Findegil.

RD-SL-03: Mîm’s death and the question who killed him and how. Húrin hit him, but one of his Band brought the curse of Androg home and killed him with an arrow through his throat pinning him to a beech trunk. Nothing changed.

Could you refresh me why did you choose this end of Mîm? I assume that the source is fron TLotCoH, but why?

RD-SL-05: The quarrels of the outlaws upon the road to Doriath. We decided not to include them, since we do not need them as tool to get rid of the outlaws.

I think (if not neccesary) the quarrels cuold be included as some of them were lost and dead by quarrels. But only a few.

Otherwise, in general terms I agreed.

Greetings

[Findegil]

RD-SL-03: About the death of Mîm: you are right the scene with the arrow in his throat is in origin the death the traitor Ban from the Lay. We used that for Mîm because the same picture is called for in one version of the curse of Androg. Thus Tolkien seemed to had that kind of death in mind for the trator of Túrins band from a very early time he work on that story (the Lay) to the last (CoH).

RD-SL-05: I myself proposed the same use for the quarrels on the road. But Aiwendil pointe rightly out that this would be a kind of '(miss-) use the words of Tolkien to tell a different story'. We have done such things, but only when forced to by some observed need. In this case we would just add a detail that was in no version that Tolkien created.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

RD-SL-03: About the death of Mîm: you are right the scene with the arrow in his throat is in origin the death the traitor Ban from the Lay. We used that for Mîm because the same picture is called for in one version of the curse of Androg. Thus Tolkien seemed to had that kind of death in mind for the trator of Túrins band from a very early time he work on that story (the Lay) to the last (CoH).

But, isn't it explicitly stated in The Wanderings of Húrin that it is Húrin himself who slays Mîm? Quoting:

Húrin comes to Nargothrond and slays Mîm the petty-dwarf. He and his men carry off the treasure of Glaurung and bring it to Doriath. Húrin is admitted in pity. - The War of the Jewels, 'The Wanderings of Húrin', entry 502, p. 258

[Findegil]

That is of course an argument against the story we produced, but as you mention yourself this come from a draft in form of a time-line that Tolkien produced while working on the story of Túrin/Húrin. You will find many examples where the later fully developed text of the Narn and/ or The Wanderings of Húrin differ from these priliminary draftings. And the two Versions of Androgs curse upon Mîm we considered to have more weight than this draft. Equaly which version of the curse one takes, none would fit the only full telling from JRR Tolkien of the encounter of Húrin and Mîm from TT nor the later short discribtions. Therefore we concluded that this 'arrow in the throat'was the lasting picture in Tolkiens mind that we should addopt for our version.

Respectfully
Findegi