*A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin* [Archive]

lindil

06-07-2001, 01:41 AM

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Re: A project ? - revising the Fall of Gondolin

Aiwendil posted:

And how will it be decided into which of the above categories
each of us falls?
Lindil: by each person.
a side note to clear any confusion that may exist or arise: unfortunately I wear the dual hats here of moderator and participant, oftimes chief instigator . But in terms of any group project[s] I am a reg. joeseph schmo! no one will be banished from the group or slandered because I don't agree or some such.

Aiwendil posted:I'd be interested in contributing somehow - I'd
be glad to write a portion of it, if my services are required, and
a full vote would be most appreciated.

lindil: your on. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

Aiwendil posted:
As for how to integrate UT with II: I don't think it's necessary
to alter any of the "later Tuor"; I would have a mild objection to
that on the principle that it was his latest writing on the
subject, and is fully consistent with the rest of the Silm. canon.

lindil: I was not suggesting it [altering the UT Tuor] I did mention that work will have to be done to meld the transition of later Tuor into 77/IV/II in the delivering of the message as we have scraps of notes and full versions w/ much conflict of details.So something will have to give here , I have not studied that particular transition enough to offer a guess yet, but I imagine that transition will be darn near the first order of business.

Aiwendil posted: I agree that II can be brought into harmony with it, but I think
it will require a little more tinkering than just updating names
and eliminating mechanical dragons and such.

Lindil: " and such " is the operative phrase covering alot of possibilities.As we see from the posts following yours aiwendil there are already differences apparent in how to treat the Lost Tales material.

Aiwendil posted:I too have given this some thought; it seems to me that one of
the weakest links is right at the point of transition from UT to
11. To begin with, we have not only a huge gap in style, but
also a huge gap in fullness of the narrative. As detailed a story
as FoG is, it is not as detailed as the later Tuor. Complicating
the matter a little is the existence of a few notes on the
continuation of the narrative in UT.

Lindil: agreed - see above.
---------------
jallanite posted:

I don't think the archaic language in the Lost Tales
version of the Fall of Gondolin should be altered. Rather,
start a new chapter at that point.

A scribe is now introducing into the work a different
source, one more archaic, the old classic Fall of Gondolin
which cannot be touched.
lindil : that certainly is one approach. I am still at this point leaning towards de-emphasizing the archaisms as much as possible w/in the confines of the working rules, as they to my mind distract one from the tale at this point being rather jarring after the very polished UT Tuor.Much will inevitably remain certaainly enough to tell it is from a more archaic source. and a series of numbers w/in the chapters to differentiate the major sections/stylistic changes might well be a useful thing.
I propose that we will all [who wish that lvl of involvement that is] have to come up w/ some examples of what we mean , I think and then vote on the way we want to handle the II material .
~~~
jallanite posted:
The mechanical dragons unfortunately are part of the
very life of the Fall of Gondolin, one of its points of
distinction. Removing them would gut the work. I can see
changing them to real dragons in a few cases.

Lindil: agreed w/ changing them to real dragons when possible

Jallanite continues:But leave
the style of the story alone!. There's no point in letting
consistancy of style and coherence with the rest of the
work reduce such good writing and a unique vision to
watered-down blandness. This is the real thing, not to be
thrown away because of tension with some summaries,
or because some editor cannot appreciate Tolkien's style
here. Changes should be minimal.

The multitude of Balrogs isn't hard to manage, though. In
most cases they can be replaced by a single Balrog at the
point in the tale with no harm to the account.

Lindil: agreed on the Balrogs [I think! <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> ] I am sure some Balrog scholars will have much more to say about their numbers and such.
Re: style and how much to save and use and how much to cut, as I said above, that will have to be a point of serious discussion and compromise or consensus.

Jallanite continues: A major problem is the mention of Legolas, since we are
elsewhere told Elves do not reuse names. He actually
could be the Legolas of The Lord of the Rings. Not that I
believe it. Galdor can be the Galdor of the Havens in The
Lord of the Rings with no problems.

lindil: I wonder wether we can use a quenya version of Legolas. Galdor I can live with he is such a minor voice in the Rivendell council that it doesn't jar me to see his name again, but Legolas I think will have to be altered somehow. I rather suspect the prof. would not have let that stand.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Voronwe posted :
The problem, though, is that if Tolkien had ever finished
the later Tuor he would almost certainly have taken the
mechanical dragons out.
Lindil : agreed

Voronwe posted : In fact, he'd probably have
written the Fall of Gondolin again from scratch without
even referring to the lost tale.
lindil : you may be right but I imagine such things as the duel w/ Ecthelion and the fall of Glorfindel would have been largely similar.And perhaps much of the battle.
Voronwe posted :
... But I suppose we have to work with what we have. And
what we've got is the 'later Tuor' from UT, the brief
account in the Quenta (the basis for the 77 chapter) and
the Fall of Gondolin itself, the first Lost Tale Tolkien ever
wrote.

L: yep
_______
Voronwe posted : If we're going to use the Later Tuor at all, we'll have a
significant style change when it ends whatever we
choose to put after it, without resorting to creative
writing. I think we have three options if we want to use
only existing texts - either a very short account similar to
the one given in 77, or the 'later Tuor' with the modified
FoG taking up where it leaves off, or else the 'later Tuor'
followed by a rather disappointingly brief account of the
city's fall.

I think it would be interesting to at least attempt to
revise the Fall of Gondolin text to bring it into line with
Tolkien's later ideas. I'm not even sure if it's possible, but
someone should perhaps give it a shot.

Lindil : that's what Aiwendil, myself and whomever else wishes to join on will try and do.

Tar Elenion posted:

Only two Balrogs are slain
in the later accounts of the fall of Gondolin, Ecthelion
slays Gothmog and Glorfindel slays an unnamed Balrog.
Possibly replace the multitude of Balrogs with the 'Boldog'
type spirits from Morgoth's Ring.
lindil: Do we know for sure wether Boldog was a type/title or a proper name?

----------------------------
Quote:
A major problem is the mention of Legolas, since we are
elsewhere told Elves do not reuse names. He actually
could be the Legolas of The Lord of the Rings. Not that I
believe it. Galdor can be the Galdor of the Havens in The
Lord of the Rings with no problems.
----------------------------------
Writing of Glorfindel he says 'the repetition of so
striking a name is possible though not credible' .

lindil: I would say the same is true for Legolas - it is a striking name and one , obviously w/ lots of associations, wheras Galdor is [to my mind] neither striking or seriously evocative.

A great start I will say we have identified the general points to be dealt w/ from the get go. I propose those who wish to- to post a few samples of how they would use the II material [ other than not changing it all] so we can debate the relative merits of each style, while waiting a bit to see if others want to join in.

btw, please feel free to noise this about to whomever you feel might be interested. Due to time constraints I do not get around to other boards as much as some of you may.

[b]Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 6/8/01 7:25:48 pm

Telchar

06-07-2001, 03:31 AM

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Re: A project ? - revising the Fall of Gondolin

jallanite posed splitting the tale after Tuors comming to Gondolin. And then starting a new chapter. I think this is a very good idear! for two reasons: 1 there is a shift in the sourse of material, style ect. - 2 There is the timespan from Tuor entering Gondolin and the FoG proberly some 10 or 15 years in which much else happend in Beleriand. I for one would not have a problem with putting in at chapter or two that was not conserned with FoG - for instance The fall of Nargothrond was during this period of time.

I have not yet read all the has been written in this SILM Canon forum, but have it ever been suggested to make a "Tale of Years" in the end of a SILM Canon - like in the end of LOTR? I think it would be a good idear - though not a easy task.

Conserning the Balrogs - As I remember - in the earlier version Tuor is credited for slaying two (which I think has to be a bandoned) Secondly I remember Michael Martinez stating that JRRT changed his opinion on the number of Balrogs to only seven, which to me seems much more reasonable.

I have not yet HoME XII - is there anything in there on this subject?

I will not comment too closely on this topic before I have reread the full material available - but I intend to do so soon.

<img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> Telchar

Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

Tar Elenion

06-07-2001, 04:06 PM

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Re: A project ? - revising the Fall of Gondolin

Re: 'Boldog':
In a footnote to the 'Orcs' text in Myths Transformed JRRT writes "Boldog ... is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs."
I find the Balrog/Boldog comparison interesting. It leads one to wonder what JRRT had in mind when he wrote this. Possibly using Boldogs in place of the numerous Balrogs of the earlier versions?

Re: Legolas
I think what the JRRT was getting at is that the 'Legolas' of Gondolin was not a character of major importance (compared to Glorfindel or the later Legolas). Or perhaps he would have changed the name. Using the Quenya version of Legolas might be inappropriate however, as the Exiles all took names in Sindarin form.

Re Balrog numbers:
There is a marginal (handwritten) note on the typescript copy of the Annals of Aman (ie probably 1958 or later) (see Annal 1099 and the associated end notes) that JRRT wrote stating that 'there were 3 or at most 7 that ever existed'. The earlier versions all have a multitude (at least 1000) Balrogs. The problem with retaining 1000 Balrogs is obvious (there is no way that the Noldor could have held off 1000 Balrogs as they were later conceived). 3 is too few (2 slain in Gondolin and one in Moria, this leaves none to be slain in the War of Wrath). 7 is about right. But off hand this is the only explicit reference to the reduction of the number of Balrogs that I recall. The earlier references (up through about 1952 or so) indicate a multitude.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

Aiwendil

06-07-2001, 05:49 PM

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A project ? - revising the Fall of Gondolin

Regarding balrog numbers: One problem with the figure of 7 (or 3) is that in one of the LotR appendices it says something about some of the balrogs fleeing Thangorodrim and hiding - I don't have the book at hand right now, so I can't give an exact quote, but as I recall, it pretty clearly suggests at least a decent sized host of balrogs still existing at the War of Wrath; I think the figure of 7 would therefore violate our 1st law of canon: the published material is always right.

I might be remembering this incorrectly, though - it's something to check into, anyway.

</p>

lindil

06-07-2001, 09:08 PM

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A project - revising the Fall of Gondolin

T E posted:I find the Balrog/Boldog comparison interesting. It leads
one to wonder what JRRT had in mind when he wrote this.
Possibly using Boldogs in place of the numerous Balrogs
of the earlier versions?
Lindil: itis def. interesting and indeed makes "sense" but I am loathe to introduce such a hypothetical substitution that has no textual basis. I feel better eliminating the balrogs that do not play a direct cmbat roll against specific characters. If the group is all in favor of baldogs I can live w/ it however.

T E posted: Re: Leg... Using the Quenya
version of Legolas might be inappropriate however, as
the Exiles all took names in Sindarin form.

true - I had already considered that, but it is ,at the moment the least compromised solution I can thnk of. Some names wee sindaizations more than sindar proper.

I favor the idea of once we have a new text submitting the names that need updating to elfling [along w/ our attempts] and see what this produces. I imagine the results would be fascinating, both the new names and their opinion and responses to what we are doing. Might even get a recruit or 2.

The more I think on the separate chapters for Tuor's Coming and the Fall of Gondolin the better a solution it becomes. We still have to smoothly wind up the delivering of the message, I read over the various texts today in II,IV,V, 77 and UT and it is a tangle .

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Tar Elenion

06-08-2001, 03:40 PM

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Re: A project ? - revising the Fall of Gondolin

------------------------------------
Quothe Aiwendil:
Regarding balrog numbers: One problem with the figure of 7 (or 3) is that in one of the LotR appendices it says something about some of the balrogs fleeing Thangorodrim and hiding - I don't have the book at hand right now, so I can't give an exact quote, but as I recall, it pretty clearly suggests at least a decent sized host of balrogs still existing at the War of Wrath; I think the figure of 7 would therefore violate our 1st law of canon: the published material is always right.

I might be remembering this incorrectly, though - it's something to check into, anyway.
-----------------------------------------

Yes, you are misremembering.
The mention you are recalling is from the published Silmarillion: "The Balrogs were destroyed save some few that fled and hid themselves...", The Voyage of Earendil (this is taken from HoME 5 Conclusion to the Quenta Silmarillion chapter 17 paragragh 16, this is from ca. 1937). In Letter 144 (1954) JRRT says that the Balrogs "...were supposed to have been all destroyed in the overthrow of Thangorodrim... But it is here found that one had escaped...".
Here JRRT could be implying that only one escaped.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>[i]

jallanite

06-10-2001, 02:36 PM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

[Revised by jallanite 2001.07.22 to add entries Gar Ainur and Nost-na-Lothion into "Questionable Elvish".]

I've looked through the later part of "The Fall of Gondolin", beginning from the point where "Huor and His Coming to Gondolin" ceases, and tried to find all name substitutions for an updated text. I've checked corresponding names appearing in QS77 with texts in the HoME series for preferrable forms. I have not bothered with "Entries in the Name-list to the Fall of Gondolin".

Forms not listed here I believe can stand as given, including Rog (what would we change this to?) and Legolas Greenleaf (let the readers make of him what they will).

<u> STRAIGHTFORWARD SUBSTITUTIONS:</u>

Bansil to Belthil per QS77.

Bronweg to Voronwë. The Quenya form of his name is used throughout in QS and "Huor and His Coming to Gondolin".

Cristhorn to Cirith Thoronath per QS77.

Eärendel to Eärendil per QS77 and LR.

Elfinesse to Elvenesse per Tolkien's general change of Elfin to Elven from earlier to later writings.

Fountain to Fountains in any reference to Ecthelion per QS77 and "Huor and His Coming to Gondolin".

Gar Thurian to Garthoren per "The Etymologies" under 3AR-, section GARAT-. The text is:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> GARAT-** Q arta fort, fortress.* N garth : cf. Garth(th)oren 'Fenced Fort' = Gondolin*** distinguish Ardh-thoren = Garthurian.<hr></blockquote> Garthurian now has a different meaing as appears under the stem THUR- where it is an Ilkorin form and applies to Doriath, not Gondolin. The entry reads:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Cf. Ilk. Garthurian Hidden Realm (= Doriath), sc. garð-thurian; Noldorinized as Arthurien, more completely as Ar(ð)*thoren*:* thoren (* tháure¯na¯) pp. of thoro- fence [see 3AR].<hr></blockquote>So in the mature language system Gar Thurian or Garthurian is now a dialectical North Sindarin name for Doriath (with a proper Sindarin counterpart Ardh-thoren) and Garth(th)oren has taken its place as one of the by-names of Gondolin.

Glingol to Glingal per QS77.

Gondothlim to Gondolindrim per QS77.

Gondothlimbar to Gondothrimbar per "The Etymologies" under GOND-, this later form properly rendering the meaning 'City of the Dwellers in Stone' in Sindarin.

Inwë to Ingwë per QS77.

Isfin to Aredhel per QS77.

Kôr to Túna Per QS77. In BolT Kor corresponds to both the later Tirion and Túna, being the name of both the city and the hill on which it stands. In the sole mention in "The Fall of Gondolin" it is the hill that is mean.

Lothengriol to Loth-a-ladwen per The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin in "Poems Early Abandoned" in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3).

Malkarauki to Valaraukar per "Valaquenta" published with QS77.

Meglin to Maeglin per QS77.

Melko to Morgoth per QS77. After BoLT, Tolkien almost never uses Melkor in narration of events following Fëanor's invention of the name Morgoth, except in a back-reference to ancient times.

Noldoli to Noldor per QS77. Noldoli, though possibly still a valid form, is not used at all in QS77 or late Tolkien writings.

Orc/Orcs to Ork/Orks following Tolkien's stated preference and use in his latest writings.

Peleg to Huor per QS77 and "Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin".

Place of the Gods to Place of the Ainur. Tolkien almost entirely drops "Gods" as a English translation in later writings. One would normally change "Gods" to "Valar", but the Elvish form Gar Ainion specifically refers to the Ainur, that is, not just to the Valar but also to the Maiar and to the Ainur who remained outside Eä. The English translation should be equally wide. "Place of the Holy Ones" would be a full translation, but is perhaps too cumbersome.

Sorontur to Sorontar per "The Etymologies" (under THOR-, THORON-) and "The Wanderings of Hrúin" in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11).

Thorndor to Thorondor per QS77 and LR.

Tumladin to Tumladen per QS77.

<u> SOMEWHAT DUBIOUS SUBSTITUTIONS:</u>

Amon Gwareth to Amon Gwared per The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), Part Two The Later Quenta Silmarillion, 12, "Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin". Christopher Tolkien notes:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> To this my father made some corrections: Nivrost > Nevrast as in the preceding chapters; Eryd Wethion > Eryd Wethrin; Handir > Huor (see above); and Amon Gwareth > Amon Gwared.<hr></blockquote> Compare the similar and possibly related use of Echoriad instead of earlier Echoriath in "The Wanderings of Húrin". This needs investigation.

Gnome/Gnomes to Elf/Elves or Noldo/Noldor. "Gnomes" was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general refenence to Elves would not fit, as in "the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not." Then use Noldor.

Salgant to Talagand per "The Eytmologies". Under the stem ÑGAN-,ÑGÁNAD-*'play (on stringed instrument)' which produces various forms meaning 'harp' or 'harp-playing', is found:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> talagant* harper* (* tyalañgando),*cf. Talagant [> ] of Gondolin [TYAL].<hr></blockquote>Under TYAL- 'play' is:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Cf. tyalañgando¯ = harp-player (Q tyalangan): N Talagand, one of the chiefs of Gondolin (see ÑGAN).<hr></blockquote>
Chrstopher Tolkien adds a note to ÑGAN-, ÑGÁNAD-:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Talagant appears in no literary source, but cf. Salgant in the tale of The Fall of Gondolin, the cowardly but not wholly unattractive lord of the People of the Harp: II.*173, 190-1, etc.<hr></blockquote> Talagand was almost certainly Tolkien's planned replacement form for Salgant the lord of the People of the Harp.

Thornhoth to Thoronhoth. This latter is the probable correct Sindarin form.

Thorn Sir to Thoron Sîr. This updates the two elements for the name from Gnomish to their QS77 and LR Sindarin forms, but I'm not sure the syntax of this later name is valid.

<u> QUESTIONABLE ELVISH:</u>

Bad Uthwen, the Elvish name of the "Way of Escape". "The Etymologies" gives:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> BAT-* tread. * báta*: ON bata beaten track, pathway; EN bâd.<hr></blockquote> But does Uthwen still exist in Sindarin in any form? If kept, it probably should appear as Bâd Uthwen with the circumflex accent. Can be dropped as uncertain.

Gar Ainion. I originally thought to retain this. The logic was that Gar Lossion 'Place of Flowers' occurs as the Gnomish name of Alalminórë, replacing an earlier Losgar. This would not necessarily mean Losgar was incorrect, rather that Tolkien had replaced one correct form with another using the same Elvish words, 'Flower-place' by 'Place of Flowers'. Since Losgar occurs in the later Silmarillion tradition as the name of the place where Fëanor burned the ships, presumably gar is still valid Sindarin meaning 'place'.
However upon closer examination the later 'Losgar' cannot mean 'Flower-place' which would be Lothgar. If gar means 'place' still, it might mean 'Snow-place' or 'Snow-white place'. But I find nothing anywhere indicating what meaning Tolkien intended for this place-name, and the fact that the first element must now have a different meaning does not give me any confidence that the last element has the same meaning as in Gnomish.
Indeed from "Etymologies" from GAR-, listed under 3AR-, there is only Noldorin/Sindarin garo- , gerin I hold, have; garn 'own', property. Nothing indicating 'place', and no form gar. Accordingly should almost certainly be dropped. It only occurs twice, both times in apposition to "the Place of the Ainur", so removal creates no problems

Gwarestrin. This must stand as there is nothing newer and nothing in published Sindarin corpus that helps in either determining its validity in Sindarin or in creating a possibly more correct Sindarin form. At least gwar- seems still valid as in Amon Gwareth/Gwared upon which Gondolin is built. Also valid is the stem TIR- which is contained in -estrin according to the explanation of the name in BoLT 1, Appendix.

Nost-na-Lothion. Translated 'Birth of Flowers'. In "Etymologies" under NO¯- 'beget' occurs Noldorin form noss 'house', example Nos Finrod 'House of Finrod'. In BolT*1 under Duilin, appears nos 'house' as well as related forms nosta- 'be born', nost 'birth; blood, high birth; birthday', and nôs 'birthday'. Nost appears only in this citation and the name Nost-na-Lothion, none of the 'birth' forms appears later, so it is not at all clear that Tolkien would have considered it still valid. But no other words meaning "born" or "birth" are given by Tolkien, so this might still stand.

Tarnin Austa, the Elvish name for the festival "Gates of Summer". Neither of the elements appears in extant later Sindarin. But there is also no conflict. (The place name Tarn Aeluin is a mixed form in which tarn is the English word meaning 'small mountain lake'.) Sindarin tarn meaning 'gate' might exist. Austa is not impossibly an alternate name for 'summer' alongside laer. Can be dropped as uncertain.

<u> TO BE DROPPED:</u>

Annon, found in the phrase "for such were the words of Annon the prophet of old". At the least this should be changed to "words of the prophecy of the North"; or "words of the prophecy of Annos" if the place name Annos is to be retained from BoLT. Tolkien never mentions a prophecy of the Fall of Gondolin after BoLT, probably rejecting the motif that the fall of Gondolin by name was part of the prophecy. If the prophecy had been so specific, it is difficult to see why Turgon would be so stupid as to give the name Gondolin to his city.

Bablon, Ninwi, Trui, Rûm found in the phrase: "Nor Bablon, nor Ninwi, nor the towers of Trui, nor all the many takings of Rûm that is greatest among Men." If we understand the account of the Fall of Gondolin to be taken from the Red Book, then it would have been written before Babylon was founded, even more, Nineveh, Troy, and Rome. Of course it is possible that this phrase could be a note added very long after the Third Age. The phrase might be changed to "Not all the many takings of cities that were greatest among Men".

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanite</A> at: 7/22/01 3:07:14 pm

Aiwendil

06-10-2001, 05:29 PM

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A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Good work, jallanite, very thorough. One minor point: I don't think we should change Orcs to Orks. Despite Tolkien's later idea about the spelling, it is spelled with a 'c' throughout LotR (and in its one or two appearances in the Hobbit) - I think this is grounds for disregarding the later change, even if it is more trivial than, say, the Galadriel/Celeborn business.

</p>

jallanite

06-10-2001, 08:24 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

The spelling Orc or Ork is of course something to be decided for the entire project, not just for one section of it.

The spelling change, if made, would be far less troublesome to readers than is Tolkien's change from goblin in The Hobbit to orc in LR.

In Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10), Myths Transformed, IX, Tolkien first indicates the change of spelling:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Its application (in all Elvish tongues) specifically to the creatures called Orks*** so I shall spell it in The Silmarillion*** was later.<hr></blockquote>And again, at the end of section X:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The word seemed in itself, very suitable to the creatures that I had in mind. But Old English orc in meaning*** so far as that is known*** is not suitable. Also the spelling of what, in the later more organized linguistic situation, must have been a Common Speech form of a word or group of similar words should be ork. If only because of spelling difficulties in modern English: an adjective orc + ish becomes necessary, and orcish will not do. In any further publication I shall use ork.<hr></blockquote>This was not a one-time impulse as essays in the following two HoME volumes show.

That this was a desired change by Tolkien, and that he would have made it had he published anything more during his lifetime, might be enough to convince.

The logic behind the change also should convince. But Tolkien covers it very hastily above.

Ork is should be an English word, as it stands for a word from Weston, the Common Speech, not from the Elvish tongues. But English words that end with a k sound are always spelled so as to end with the letter k (or ke), not c, unless they are loan words from Latin or another language. No native English word descended from pure Old English ends with c. If Old English orc had descended to us unbroken, then it would today be spelled ork, just as French porc became English pork. Ork feels right as an English word in a way that orc does not.

Ork is superior to Orc in much the same ways as Elven is superior to Elfin, or Dwarves to Dwarfs, or Elvenhome to Faërie, less artificial, stronger and more real. The taste of words does matter. There is magick in words.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanite</A> at: 6/10/01 10:53:15 pm

lindil

06-10-2001, 11:38 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 633</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Jallanite, I can but echo Aiwenil's sentiments in agreeing that your compilation is both seemingly comprehensive and extraordinarily well laid out, and rapidly produced.

1>On the matter of Orks, I can go either way - if CRT would have gone ahead and authorized such a change in LotR there would be no question , but in this case we have competing versions of an obviously frequent word:
Ork as JRRT's stated, but unrealized [in a canonical publication] preference; and
Orc as the universal usage in LotR, which we wish to be in harmony with. I agree w/ your historical conclusions re; porc/orc and it's pref. as in Elven,Dwarven etc. As for magick, I fancy that if JRRT knew of the original backing for that spelling he would on principle stick w/ orc!
...but I digress - I think you are right in that the word will have to be voted on.

A few other q's arose in my mind .
2>
If we have a Quenya Voronwe - from a Sin. Bronweg; why not a sindarin Legolas Greenleaf - I do not know if the vocabulary exists to facilitate it - but if so it seems the easiest remedy to the problem. From what we read in UT it seems highly unlikly that Thrandiul would name his Sindarin/Sylvan son after a Noldorin captain [ or at least a captain from a Noldorin City.]

3>It seems that I read re: Rog that JRRT was planning / would have changed the word - if he had ever rewritten the story, which seems to very likely, it is simply to coarse a word for a name in elvish, sounds like an ork name actually! maybe some of the folks at Elfling might have an idea - or even the Vinyar tengwar folks might have read an as yet unpublished solution to the [in my mind] dilemna. I simply can not see using Rog as a proper name for an Elf of Gondolin, and would [sadly] vote for it's elimination if no suitable substitution could be found.

There were a couple of other points I am wondering about, but I will put those off for a day or two.

4> If you [Jallanite] and Aiwendil would send me your email addresses , I have a couple of items reserved for project members which you might find extremely useful. My email can be found by clicking on Lindil and hitting the link on my Public profile [ or you can
post your own email on your pub. profile.

again great work -
are you related to Tar-Elenion? <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

Lindil is oft found on posting on[i] the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a> , and http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod saith " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor...then Eru must come in to conquer him. </p>

lindil

06-11-2001, 10:05 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 637</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

With the excellent paper on th elvish names at hand we have a few different possibilities , I think to consider for the next stage of FoG.
I would like to dismiss the 'each of us taking sections and then edit as a group' approach as it seemed to be a rather miserable failure w/ the Darkening of Valinor.
We could:
A] precede paragraph by paragraph thrpugh LT-FoG incorporating 77,and IV as we go or...
B] create a sectional outline of what each version covers and then precede one section at a time w/ everyone who wants to be a full participant sounding off and voting and non-voting commenters to comment on as we come to decisions.
C] other possibilities ?

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a> , and http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod saith " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor...then Eru must come in to conquer him. </p>

Tar Elenion

06-12-2001, 03:55 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 109</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

------------------------
Quote:
If we have a Quenya Voronwe - from a Sin. Bronweg; why not a sindarin Legolas Greenleaf - I do not know if the vocabulary exists to facilitate it - but if so it seems the easiest remedy to the problem. From what we read in UT it seems highly unlikly that Thrandiul would name his Sindarin/Sylvan son after a Noldorin captain [ or at least a captain from a Noldorin City.]
------------------------------

I dont have BoLT 2 handy. Which House is Legolas said to be from? If JRRT had kept him I personally think he would have been a Sinda.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

Telchar

06-13-2001, 12:41 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 386</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

If I remember correctly he is said to be of the House of the Flower, but I could be wrong.

Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

lindil

06-13-2001, 01:47 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 641</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

p.189 HB ...led by Legolas Greenleaf of the House of the
Tree.

looking legolas up in the name list on p.216 I
read:'named by the eldar there
Laiqalasse'
So he has already been given a 'Quenya' name by JRRT!
there is then a reference to an extended note in I
wherein we read CRT saying <blockquote>[i]Quote:<hr> 'the following Note is of
great interest' "Laigolas =green-leaf,......legolast
i.e.keen-sight...but perhaps both were his names as the
gnomes delighted to give similar sounding namesof
dissimilar meaning, legolas-the ordinary form is a
confusion of the 2." <hr></blockquote>

So we are given 2 options that I can see [and I do not
excpect anyone to rely on me for linguistic skills!]

A 'quenya' - Laiqalasse'
or an uncorrupted 'sindarin' - Laigolas Legolast.
a third option could be just Laigolas -

this is different enough to pass my 'aesthet- o'meter'
test <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">
other thoughts- please.

-lindil

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 6/13/01 4:18:36 am

Aiwendil

06-13-2001, 12:37 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 24</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

I don't think 'Laigolas' is usable, at least not if it is meant to represent a different word from 'Legolas'. It seems most probable to me that it was merely an alternate spelling. But anyway, if we accept the etymology of Legolas (as we must), then 'Laigolas' lacks an etymology entirely.

</p>

Tar Elenion

06-13-2001, 04:55 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 110</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Actually there is an etymology of sorts.
"Legolas means 'green-leaves', a woodland name - dialetical form of pure Sindarin laegolas: *lasse [with overscore on the 'e'] (High-elven lasse, S. las(s)) 'leaf'; *gwa-lassa/*gwa-lassie 'collection of leaves, foliage' (H.E. olassie [w/ overscore on 'e'], S. golas, -olas); *laika 'green' - basis LAY as in laire 'summer' (H.E. laica, S. laeg (seldom used, usually replaced by calen), woodland leg)."
Quoted from Letter 211.
"'Technically' Legolas is a compound (according to rules) of S. laeg 'viridis fresh and green, and go-lass 'collection of leaves, foliage'."
Quoted from Letter 297.

'ae' and 'ai' are often interchangeable (eg Aeglos, Aiglos (Gil-galad's spear)).

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 6/13/01 7:02:54 pm

Tar Elenion

06-13-2001, 05:06 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 111</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Has any thought been given to how to divide up the various Houses of the Gondolindrim between the Noldor and Sindar (presuming that the version gone with is that in which there are both Noldor and Sindar therein).

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

Aiwendil

06-13-2001, 05:12 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 26</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

What I meant was that 'Laigolas' is really not a different name at all from 'Legolas'. However, 'Legolast' might be used, if it could still represent 'keen-sight' (I doubt if it could, but we might change it to a more suitable form).

</p>

lindil

06-14-2001, 07:43 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 643</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Re; the sindar and noldor unless there is text that is somehow suitable for inclusion in the Tale it is I think an academic question - as opposed to a practical one.
where is the source for the comepeting Noldor only/Noldor - Sindar houses. Quendi and Eldar? - Shibboleth? I think it is briefly mentioned in the UT tuor notes.
If we keep Voronwe as given in UT Tuor it seems we are obliged to have Sindar in Gondolin - if not their ' houses'.

Re: legolast /laigolas etc. I am for anything other than duplicating legolas /legolas greenleaf.
The others are such close variants that perhaps the Quenya version should be used despite it standing out.

Textually [as opposed to specific words] our first question is here and how do we end UT Tuor and start FoG? any thoughts?

I will try and work on an outline of all the major sections of IV,77 and FoG w/ a few notes as to obvious work needing to be done.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, and Gilthalion's http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him. </p>

cian

06-14-2001, 12:53 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 15</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

I'd go with Laegolas for the "pure Sindarin" that JRRT offers, in the letter quoted by Tar-Elenion.

Laica (LAY) is cognate with S. laeg ~ Helge F. prefers to also honor "older" word laiqua as a viable Quenya word as well. Laiqa shows old "Qenya" orthography.

Tolkien gave the next elements in both High and Grey Elven (S. golas, -olas Q. olassië) as denoting a collection of leaves. Cheers~

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000317>cian</A> at: 6/29/01 6:07:25 am

Tar Elenion

06-14-2001, 03:55 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 112</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

--------------------------------
Quote:
where is the source for the comepeting Noldor only/Noldor - Sindar houses. Quendi and Eldar? - Shibboleth? I think it is briefly mentioned in the UT tuor notes.
-------------------------------------

If I am recalling correctly in the original version of FoG (Lost Tales), there were only Noldoli/Gnomes present in Gondolin, there were no Sindar (or rather Ilkorin Elves who later became the Sindar). In the Grey Annals in HoME 5 it only mentions Turgon taking the Noldor to Gondolin (a third of Fingolfin's people). In the GA in HoME 11 (excursus on Languages, And Annal for year 67) the initial writings have Gondolin peopled by the Noldor only. This concept was discarded in rewrites of the passages. Annal 116 says the Sindar out numbered the Noldor in Gondolin. However in the Glorfindel essay in Last Writings (HoME 12) JRRT mentions that Gondolin was peopled almost entirely by the Noldor. I have had debates with some who say that this was JRRT's final conception he was changing this back to the long held original version and is thus 'canon'. I however think it may have just been some fogetfulness on his part (these late writings show a variety of 'errors' attributable to the Professors age and 'memory being no longer retentive'). There is a few lines later the consideration that Glorfindel could have been a Sinda.
In any event Gondolin having a Sinda population is much more consistant overall, though it may necesitate some change to the Lost Tales version.

cian is one of the more knowledgeable 'linguistic' types (at least of those that commonly post on boards on other than the linguistic boards).

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

lindil

06-15-2001, 02:56 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 645</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: legolas /Sindar or Noldor/Cian

I re-read the UT Tuor yesterday and as I remembered that Voronwe was 1/2 Sinda &1/2 Noldo is clearly stated by and in the passing through of the gates - the third gate - of bronze was peopled mostly by the Sindar.

T-E has said <blockquote>Quote:<hr>
in Last Writings (HoME 12) JRRT mentions
that Gondolin was peopled almost entirely by the Noldor. I
have had debates with some who say that this was JRRT's
final conception he was changing this back to the long held
original version and is thus 'canon'. I however think it may
have just been some fogetfulness on his part (these late
writings show a variety of 'errors' attributable to the
Professors age and 'memory being no longer retentive').
There is a few lines later the consideration that Glorfindel
could have been a Sinda.
In any event Gondolin having a Sinda population is much
more consistant overall, though it may necesitate some
change to the Lost Tales version.<hr></blockquote>

I think you are right. It is a similar case to the final conceptions of Galadriel, as interesting as they might be there is too much disruption of excellent text to include a final ponderings and drafts that were evidently never considered in the light of the larger Legendarium or in the case of Galadriel of the published LotR/RGEO.

I put forth that this conception is firmly enough embedded into the UT text that removing it due to dueling and differently interpreted linguistic texts is counter-productive. The individual linguistic notes are more easily deleted [if they have a place at all] than trying to resettle the question by manipulating the last version of Tuor, which I think has a coherence and majesty of story that is best left untampered with.

Welcome Cian - if you have read the 'Introduction to the forum' thread you may know your participation here is most welcome - I hope we see you regularly here, especially as the thornier linguistic issues come up. Let us know if you wish to be counted as a voting member [in linguistic area's or on the project in general] - there is more re: this in the 'Intro to the Forum & Project ' thread.

A linguistic question re: the legolas name issue- is the Quenya listed in the notes to LT [ I am not sure iif it is in the back or after FoG] under the Legolas entry [that I quoted above] the later version of quenya? I am not looking at Cian and my posts simaltaneously but I think the spelling of the Q. version of legolas differs. Are we translating different roots or is it due to different era's of quenya.

Lindil is oft found on posting on[i] the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, and Gilthalion's http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him. </p>

Aiwendil

06-16-2001, 01:12 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
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A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Regarding splitting the story into 2 chapters: Regardless of whether we actually do this, I don't think it's a solution to the style problems. That is, IF we break up the story, I think we should do it for reasons of the overall aesthetic sense of the book rather than as sort of a "quick fix" to the problems of splicing together II and UT. For a couple of reasons:

1. Even if we interpose another chapter (which I suppose would be some or all of the Ruin of Doriath/Nauglamir segment), we STILL have a stylistic problem. It'll be little less disorienting for the drastic change in style to occur at a chapter break rather than in the middle of a chapter; and the Lost Tales material will still feel rather out of place in the context of the whole book.

2. We still would have to alter the Lost Tales material to bring it in line with the later story (more on this below), and we'd still have a problem with the transition; there are rough notes for Tuor's riding to Gondolin and his meeting with Turgon in UT, which we'll have to try to work into the FoG narrative no matter where we put the chapter break.

I'm not saying I don't think that Tuor should be two chapters - I'm just saying that doing that wouldn't really solve our problem.

Anyway, I think probably the best way to use the FoG in II (and probably any other stuff from BolT or other early sources that we end up using anywhere) is to first agree on a detailed, canon outline of events, using the latest sources possible (77, X and XI, and sometimes the QS), then to follow the earlier narrative, altering it where we have conflicts. I've worked up sort of a rough outline for Tuor mostly from the 77 and from the Tale of Years in XI. Here it is:

1. The coming of Tuor to Gondolin - directly from UT
2. From notes in UT:
a. Tuor asks the name of the city and is told its 7 names
b. Ecthelion orders the sounding of the signal, and trumpets are blown on the towers of the Great Gate, echoing in the hills.
c. After a hush, they hear far of answering trumpets blown upon the city walls.
d. Horses are brought (a grey horse for Tuor); they ride to Gondolin
e. Description of Gondolin: Stairs up to its high platform, the great gate, mounds of mallorns, birches and evergreens, the place of the fountain, the king's tower on a pillared arcade, the king's house, the banner of Fingolfin
f. Turgon appears, "tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol" - description of his white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath
g. Turgon welcomes Tuor; Maeglin is seen standing on the right of the throne and Idril is seated on the left.
h. Tuor speaks the message of Ulmo (either in the hearing of all or in the council-chamber)
i. Ulmo's cloak vanishes
j. Explanation of why there is no queen in Gondolin (which I assum means the story of Elenwe dying on the Helcaraxe)
k. Emphasis when Tuor first sees Idril that he had known or even seen few women in his life - most of the women and all the children of Annael's company were sent away south; and as a thrall he had seen only the barbaric women of the Easterlings or unhappy slaves
3. Turgon ponders the counsel of Ulmo and remembers the words spoken to him at Vinyamar, but he is proud and does not heed the warning.
4. Tuor stays and lives in Gondolin
5. After 7 years, Tuor weds Idril and there is a feast
6. Earendil is born
7. Morgoth becomes aware of the region of Gondolin because of Hurin, and bends all his thought to its destruction; Maeglin is lost, taken prisoner by Orcs, and brought to Angband, where he buys his life by making a deal with Morgoth.
8. When Earendil is 7 years old, Morgoth looses upon Gondolin Balrogs, Orcs, wolves, and dragons
9. On a night of festival, the people of Gondolin see a red light in the hills in the north
10. The forces of Morgoth cannot be stayed until they are beneath the very walls of Gondolin
11. The battle (here is where the 77 has the least, and II can be used to fill in a lot of details):
a. Ecthelion fights Gothmog in the square of the King and they slay each other.
b. Turgon's tower is defended by the people of his household until it is overthrown
c. Tuor seeks to rescue Idril, but Maeglin has layed hands on her, and on Earendil. Tuor fights with Maeglin on the walls and casts him far out, and his body strikes the slopes of Amon Gwareth 3 times.
12. Tuor and Idril lead such remnants of the people of Gondolin as they can gather down the secret way; the captains of Angband know nothing of this passage and do not think that any fugitives would take a path north, to the highest mountains and the closest to Angband. Their escape is hidden by the fumes and smoke.
13. In Cirith Thoronath they are ambushed by Orcs and a Balrog. Glorfindel duels with the balrog and both fall into the abyss. Eagles come and drive back the Orcs, and Thorondor bears Glorfindel's body out of the abyss; he is buried.
14. Tuor leads them over the mountains and into the vale of Sirion; they flee southward to Nan-tathren and rest there. Then they make a feast in memory of Gondolin and Tuor makes a song for Earendil (which is found in IV)
15. Idril and Tuor depart from Nan-tathren (presumably with many or most of the rest of the fugitives) and go to the mouths of Sirion; there they meet Elwing and the fugitives from Doriath.
16. Morgoth thinks that his triumph is fulfilled, but by Sirion and the sea the remnants of Doriath and Gondolin mingle
17. Ulmo speaks to the Valar, urging them to aid the people of Beleriand, but Manwe is unmoved.
18. Tuor and Idril depart on Earrame.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000320>Aiwendil</A> at: 6/17/01 10:53:22 am

Tar Elenion

06-16-2001, 01:41 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 114</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

You may wish to add in a '15a' wherein the Exiles from Gondolin are greeted by Elwing and joined to her company at the Havens of Sirion.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

lindil

06-16-2001, 03:20 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 646</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Regarding splitting the story into 2 chapters: Regardless
of whether we actually do this, I don't think it's a
solution to the style problems. That is, IF we break up
the story, I think we should do it for reasons of the
overall aesthetic sense of the book rather than as sort
of a "quick fix" to the problems of splicing together II and
UT. For a couple of reasons:

1. Even if we interpose another chapter (which I
suppose would be some or all of the Ruin of
Doriath/Nauglamir segment), we STILL have a stylistic
problem. It'll be little less disorienting for the drastic
change in style to occur at a chapter break rather than in
the middle of a chapter; and the Lost Tales material will
still feel rather out of place in the context of the whole
book.

2. We still would have to alter the Lost Tales material to
bring it in line with the later story (more on this below),
and we'd still have a problem with the transition; there
are rough notes for Tuor's riding to Gondolin and his
meeting with Turgon in UT, which we'll have to try to
work into the FoG narrative no matter where we put the
chapter break.

I'm not saying I don't think that Tuor should be two
chapters - I'm just saying that doing that wouldn't really
solve our problem.

Excellent outline, I am very glad you beat me to it.

I have appended a couple of points to T-E 's comment.

from the outline: j. Explanation of why there is no queen in Gondolin
(which I assum means the story of Elenwe dying on the
Helcaraxe)
lindil- yes although I think it best told if it is literarily feasible in the crossing itself.
from the outline: 7. Morgoth becomes aware of the region of Gondolin
because of Hurin, and bends all his thought to its
destruction - 8.
lindil:somewher within 7 and 8 Maeglin is captured by Orks and betrays Gondolin

Tuor makes a song for Earendil (which is
found in IV)
Lindil: I could not find it - what page?

Tar Elenion posted : You may wish to add in a '15a' wherein the Exiles from Gondolin are greeted by Elwing and joined to her company at the Havens of Sirion.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, and Gilthalion's http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him. </p>

Aiwendil

06-17-2001, 09:00 AM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

I've corrected the omission of Maeglin's capture in my outline, and added a note of the meeting of Tuor and Idril with Elwing. Perhaps the next step is to figure out which sections of FoG to use for each of the items on the outline?

Regarding Tuor's song: It's found in IV, in the 2nd appendix to the Quenta (p. 264 in my copy). Of course, if we use it, we'll correct Ylmir to Ulmo (I don't think this is a problem, since it doesn't change the meter). Some of the details are undoubtedly different from those in UT, but I think that's acceptable - Tuor undoubtedly took a little creative license.

</p>

jallanite

06-17-2001, 09:45 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 20</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Changes to my previous posting of names

I have edited my previous posting to include three forms accidently omitted: Indor to Galdor (a definite change), house of the Swan to House of Hador (a dubious change), and Lothlim to Lothrim (a dubious change), since it is better to have all this data in one place.

Explanation of Bronweg to Voronwë

The proper corresponding Sindarin form to Gnomish Bronweg is actually Bronwë per "The Grey Annals" §298, Commentary on "The Grey Annals" §257 in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11) and "The Etymologies" under BORÓN- and WEG-.

In the linguistic situation of the original "Fall of Gondolin" the Gnomish form must have been his "real" name at the time of the story: it is mentioned as his alternate name when he first appears, and the statement that he named himself as Bronweg at the gate of Gondolin simply recognizes that this would be the form of the name he must have used. It is as if I were writing an account of Christopher Columbus, mostly using that form of the name, but were to say at one point, "He introduced himself as Cristobal Colon, a learned navigator, born in Genoa." But nothing indicates why in "The Fall of Gondolin" this Elf alone should be mainly called by his Qenya name.

In the Silmarillion and Annal texts covering the Tuor story, Tolkien switches to the form Bronweg > Bronwë except for the very last revisions made after he had written "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin". These are found in "The Grey Annals" §257, §299, and there he reverts again to Voronwë and they in every other way follow all the innovations in "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin".

Has Tolkien now decided that Voronwë is truly his use name at the time of the tale? Perhaps he had already come to the conclusion, only recorded later, that in Gondolin the speaking of Quenya had been revived. Elenmakil, captain of the Guard, also bears a Quenya name. But Tolkien seems not to have intended to replace all the names with Quenya forms, for Ecthelion reappears from the old tale with a name that we can only interpret as Sindarin under the new linguistic background, and which is listed accordingly as Noldorin in "The Etymologies" under STELEG- and is also identified as Sindarin in a late note in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11) in the chapter "Maeglin" §4. The notes for the continuation of the tale also introduce Turgon, Idril and Maeglin by their normal Sindarin names.

But Voronwë seems very strongly presented as that Elf's use name in "The Coming of Tuor to Gondolin". The actual form "Voronwë" appears first prophetically from Tuor's mouth and is used several times in the conversation with Elenmakil. A sudden change to Bronwë when the Elf names himself again at the gate of Gondolin would be very hard to account for. Either he should also name himself Voronwë at that point, or Voronwë in the conversations (conducted presumably in Sindarin) with Elenmakil should be changed to Bronwë).

What we can be certain of is that Voronwë was the form Tolkien decided in 1951 to use in the tale, that he kept to it afterwards, and it should be maintained unless extremely good cause can be found to change it. So leave it as Voronwë throughout.

Changes to be Made in "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin"

Letter k in the phrase Anar kaluva tielyanna! and the name Elemmakil to be changed to c following JRRT's decision, after the writing of this manuscript but before actual publication of LR, to always use c in Elvish in Latin latter transcriptions of Elvish words and names (except it would seem for names of the Valar (Melkor, Tulkas, Kementári).

Echoriath to Echoriad per The War of the Jewels (HoME 10), "The Wanderings of Húrin". Warning: I have NO explanation for this change!

Possibly remove the words I have underlined from the following passage:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> They are the folk of Thorondor, who <u>dwelt once even on Thangorodrim ere Morgoth grew so mighty, and</u> dwell <u>now</u> in the Mountains of Turgon <u>since the fall of Fingolfin</u>.<hr></blockquote>Christopher Tolkien has a note on this passage which concludes:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In all probability the conception of Thorondor's dwelling at first upon Thangorodrim, which is found also in an early Silmarillion text, was later abandoned.<hr></blockquote>In particular Christopher Tolkien points out that in the chapter "Of the Ruin of Beleriand" in QS77 Thorondor is already described as having "his eyrie among the peaks of Crissaegrim" when he rescues Fingolfin's body. Therefore, if Thorondor had changed his dwelling, it must have been before before Fingolfin's death, not after.

Also, at the beginning of the earlier chapter "Of the Noldor in Beleriand" there has been reference to the vale of Tumladen being surrounded by "a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor." This suggests that even then Thorondor's eagles dwelt in those mountains. But perhaps only some did.

But before the breaking of the Siege and death of Fingolfin it is difficult to find any point where "Morgoth grew so mighty" that Thorondor felt he had best remove himself from Thangorodrim for that reason.

Thorondor might have moved after Dagor Agloreb, the Glorious Battle, which was indeed a great victory for the Noldor, but could have proved less happy for Thorondor when "fire came from fissures in the earth, and the Iron Mountains vomitted flame."

We could restore the phrase "dwelt once even on Thangorodrim" and the word "now" and leave vague when and why Thorondor changed his dwelling.

That is currently my preference on the principle that if you don't have to remove it, then keep it.

In note 13 to "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" Christopher Tolkien notes that his father had indicated elsewhere that Turgon maintained a secret refuge on the Island of Balar, but later rejected that idea. The reason for this note is Voronwë's account that Turgon had sent a few folk to Sirion's mouth who had built some ships and established lonely dwellings on the Isle of Balar.

But there is actually no contradiction here. Though JRRT rejected the idea that Turgon founded a permanent refuge on Balar and that Círdan's people later mingled with Turgon's people there, none of his published writings oppose a settlement on Balar during Turgon's failed attempt to build seaworthy ships. That is all that Voronwë's account mentions. He says nothing that even suggests that the settlement was more than temporary. The reference should be kept unchanged.

I would personally like to add from the primtive "Fall of Gondolin" a phrase which I italicize to one of the sentences in "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" as follows:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then he took up his rugged harp of wood and the sinews of bears which he bore ever with him, being skilled in playing upon its strings, ...<hr></blockquote>There may be other such phrases from the primitive account which contradict no later details and that it would be a shame to lose.

Comments on Changing and Retaining Names

In "The Shibboleth of Fëanor" in The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), Note 30, Tolkien explains that Ingoldo was the mother-name of both Finarfin and Finrod and then continues:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The name spread from his kin to many others who held him in great honour, especially to Men (the Atani) of whom he was the greatest friend among the Eldar.<hr></blockquote>This provides a precedent for reuse of other names to set against Tolkien's claim that it would not be credible for there to be two separate Elves named Glorfindel ( ibid. "Glorfindel"). Christopher Tolkien also records on the Glorfindel comment that his father in a later note questioned his conclusion that reuse of the name would not be credible.

So Legolas can stay as Legolas. Changing the name to a variant form is too obviously a silly trick, unless someone can demonstrate it is the form that Tolkien would have changed it to. And I don't think we have the right to make such changes without authorization or some kind of analogical indication that the new form is more correct. Dropping the name and making the Elf anonymous, or dropping the passages in which he appears, would be more in line with the idea that this project is not to create new material. But I don't see any need to drop Legolas or to change his name. There is no actual conflict, whether he is taken to be the same or different from the Legolas son of Thranduil.

As to Rog, the final 1930 version of Tolkien's Silmarillion account of the Fall of Gondolin as published in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), "Quenta", §16, contains the passage:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Of the deeds of desperate valour done there, by the chieftains of the noble houses and their warriors, and not least by Tuor, is much told in The Fall of Gondolin; of the death of Rog without the walls; and of the death of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog Lord of Balrogs in the very square of the king, ...<hr></blockquote>.
In BoTL 2, "The Fall of Gondolin", Commentary (v), The array of the Gondothlim, Christopher Tolkien remarks in a footnote:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I removed the reference to Rog ( The Silmarillion p.*242) on the grounds that it was absolutely certain that my father would not have retained this name as that of a lord of Gondolin.<hr></blockquote>I also guess JRRT would have changed it. I equally guess he would have changed much else as evidenced by how much he changed the tale of Tuor's coming to Gondolin. But to take this tack means it is impossible to include anything.

So, keep Rog, both name and deeds. The readers to this composite Silmarillion know they are reading a composite work. At least let it be as full as it can be with as many details as can possibly be kept.

Christopher Tolkien again and again in HoME speaks of his regrets in making too many changes in The Silmarillion text for reasons of style or consistency. To remove the one mention of Rog from the short summary of The Fall of Gondolin was unimportant. To remove him, the first to ever slay a Balrog, from the full Fall of Gondolin is a major excision. I suppose he could simply be named as the Lord of the Hammer.

But without evidence, we don't actually know that JRRT would have changed that name.

Again, should not the rule be when in doubt keep it? Otherwise almost everything will be jettisoned.

On Mechanical Dragons

The final 1930 Silmarillion version of Tolkien's account of the Fall of Gondolin as published in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), "Quenta", §16, contains the passage:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and he loosed upon Gondolin his Orcs and his Balrogs and his serpents; and of these, dragons of many and dire shapes were new devised for the taking of the city.<hr></blockquote>Christopher Tolkien in his notes on this passage remarks:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In the reference to the 'devising' (rather than 'breeding') of new dragons by Morgoth for the assault on the city there is even a suggestion of the (apparently) inanimate constructions of the Tale (see II.213).<hr></blockquote>In QS77 this becomes (emphasis mine):<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and he loosed upon Gondolin his Balrogs, and his Orcs, and his wolves; and with them came dragons of the brood of Glaurung, and they were become now many and terrible.<hr></blockquote>I cannot find textual justification for these changes in HoME. This may be simply rewriting as Christopher Tolkien and Guy Kay imagined JRRT might have done.

Can anyone find firm textual support for these changes?

Inclusion of the poem "The Horns of Ylmir"

As it stands it would need major fan-fiction style rewriting or dropping of lines, as Tuor in the original story and the poem encounters Ulmo in the summer in the marshes of the Land of Willows where he is first enchanted by inland musics and then by Ulmo's music. In the later story it is on the seacoast by Vinyamar at the approach of winter and Ulmo plays no music.

And there are other differences. Including much of the poem is going to be very difficult.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanite</A> at: 6/18/01 7:19:35 pm

cian

06-18-2001, 04:45 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Re: keeping the form Legolas ~ remember that this form shows Silvan dialect.

Lindil, yes an "updated" situation can (may) be considered:

Quenya laiqua (LAYAK) Sindarin cognate *laeb (Noldorin lhoeb in Etym.)
Quenya laica (LAY) Sindarin cognate laeg (Cf. Q&E WotJ laegel, Laegrim)

The term Laiquendi "Greenelves" was likely originally conceived of as resulting from laiqua+quendi. But laica can also "fit" here, so to speak ~ according to Helge F., the first element may be a reduced form of _laica_ , or prefixed _lai_ may represent only the base itself (LAY), or maybe even laica+quendi > Laiquendi considering rocco+quén > roquen "knight".

Thanks to you and Tar-E for the welcome Btw. Unfortunately I haven't even had time to properly read all the messages re: the project, let alone contribute much or vote; but I thought I'd pop in, being lured from an occasional look into "Langs" as I was <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> Looks like a lot of great work going on in any event ~ I'd suggest bringing any forms in question to the Master linguists of Elfling, if possible. Cheers~

Almarë elyen

P.S. re: Echoriad
From David Salo (1995, from a proposed etymology of Eriador) *iâd might have a similar meaning to iâth ~ Echoriad is indeed "later". Quote:

"Evidently its meaning, in whatever way it differs from iâth, was thought to be more appropriate. It is notable that in both Echoriad and Eriador that the 'iâd' is a line of mountains; while the iâth of Doriath was a magical zone of deception and bewilderment."

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000317>cian</A> at: 6/29/01 6:05:59 am

lindil

06-18-2001, 08:22 AM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Jallanite posted:Changes to my previous posting of names

I
house of the Swan to House of Hador (a dubious
change),
L: seems reasonable, the alternative is to introduce a previously unmentioned motif for the pre-eminent family of warriors of the edain. I would w/out further evidence go w/Hador instead of swan even though it is an 'indirect' substitution if you will. I suppose elimination of the reference altogether is another possibility.

Jallanite posted: What we can be certain of is that Voronwë was the form Tolkien decided in 1951 to use in the tale, that he kept to it afterwards, and it should be maintained unless
extremely good cause can be found to change it. So leave it as Voronwë throughout.

Lindil:Sounds good, as a theoritcal aside - perhaps some 1/2 sindar and some full sindar disagreed w/ Thingol and thought his stance was capricious and foolish, and thus ignored [especially in Gondolin/Noldorin co.] Thingols ban on Quenya. This seems even more plausible in those of the Sindar who would be willing to leave Nevrast and remove to Gondolin acknowledging fealty and undoubtedly swearing oath's of secrecy to Turgon. Sounds like a good suite 101 article for MM actually<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> .

Jallanite posted: Changes to be Made in "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin"

Letter k in the phrase Anar kaluva tielyanna! and the
name Elemmakil to be changed to c following JRRT's
decision, after the writing of this manuscript but before
actual publication of LR, to always use c in Elvish in
Latin latter transcriptions of Elvish words and names
(except it would seem for names of the Valar (Melkor,
Tulkas, Kementári).
sounds good in theory. But I think [and this will come up later]exceptions to the rule might be acceptable .

Jallanite posted: Echoriath to Echoriad per The War of the Jewels (HoME 10), "The Wanderings of Húrin".

lindil: probably time to decide what to do re: sending queries to Elfling- my thoughts on i are this. Obviously they are a rel. large functioning group and we will prob. get v.good answers. the catch aws I seeit is that some of these folks, esp. the editors of Vinyat tengwar - must be on familiar terms w/ CRT and we are inviting official notice of our project at an extremely early stage at which a cease and desist order or negative reaction from CRT is more likely than if we send a finished FoG [not too mention a finished Silm.
Any other thoghts on this? I don't think the project will suffer appreciably from finishing FoG at the least before sending notice to elfling, for a full review of both our new text and a docket of our changes and conversations re: them.
In short I say hold off. If a majority favors sending a list of Q's off now or soon, then as with all group choices , I am happy to go w/ it. [more on the group choices thing in a bit.]

Jallanite posted: We could restore the phrase "dwelt once even on
Thangorodrim" and the word "now" and leave vague
when and why Thorondor changed his dwelling.

That is currently my preference on the principle that if
you don't have to remove it, then keep it.

Lindil:I agree w/ the principle and the choice in specific , I read this passage the other day and pondered the same things. His dwelling on top of a non-volcanic thangoridrim would make sense if the eagles main role was spying on Morgoth.

Jallanite posted:... none of his published
writings oppose a settlement on Balar during Turgon's
failed attempt to build seaworthy ships. That is all that
Voronwë's account mentions. He says nothing that even
suggests that the settlement was more than temporary.
The reference should be kept unchanged.

Lindil: yea

Jallanite posted: I would personally like to add from the primtive "Fall ofGondolin" a phrase which I italicize to one of the
sentences in "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" as
follows:

Quote:

Then he took up his rugged harp of wood
and the sinews of bears which he bore ever
with him, being skilled in playing upon its
strings, ...

L:I liked that also, I might lean towards eliminating 'rugged' as it was most likely made by and or under the tutelage of the Sindarin Elves, and ruggedness is not the first quality that comes to mind.
Jallanite posted:There may be other such phrases from the primitive
account which contradict no later details and that it
would be a shame to lose.

Lindil: this brings up an interesting dilemna I faced in the Darkening of valinor wher I added the LT version of parts of the Procession of the Noldor and Vanyar to the X account. Reads reasonably well and certainly does not contradict, but we have just made a change to JRRT's final conception in cases where he had produced relativly full treatments. I personally faviorite it a fair # of instances but in principle I have to acknowledge it is a little shaky. we will have to come to an agreement on this and several other similar points.
Re: Rog and Legolas's name your points are all valid , but I think an equally strong case can be made [and which CRT certainly agreed w/. that JRRT simply would have found both untenable, in the case of Rog we would be introducing a name which clearly is out of keeping w/ th entire aethetic edifice of Elven language. and w/ legolas , well... I find it impossible for him to be the son of thranduil even if it is not explicitly stated so. As for use of the re-use of name, again we have it in Galdor and w/ Edain esp. Gondorians recycling hero's names, , but if we keep Legolas , esp.L. greenleaf we have as I mentioned earlier a a pretty deep implicit conflict. Thranduil was a doriathrin refugee either 1st or 2ng generation and we know from UT that he was not pleased w/ noldor taking up in Lorien, we can deduce some anti-noldorin sentiments [just as he was prejudiced against the Dwarves ] in general from this whichmakes it unlikely that he would name his sonw. a combination Leg.Gr. exactly the same as used by a 'prince' of Gondolin [we can i think assume that the tale would be widely known in all sindarin circles, prob w/ a neg. attitude since some of the godolithrim were sindar, who may have had a reputation as mentioned above for usiong Quenya despite Thingol's ban.] So.... I find Legolas difficult aesthetically and historically. I would prefere Quenya , an innovation i know but one that solves what i perceive as a problem w/ the least fuss, and it has precedent w/ Voronwe. A group vote will def. be needed. And i will briefly point out that prob. none of us will see this chapter[s] exactly as we might like , the cost of a group effort is compromise and I am sure the final product will more than overcome any reservations any of us as individulas may have.OPlus - what we do here will most likely be I hope a calling card for a greatercouncil , wherein FoG will possibly be gone over again.
Jallanite posted:. But to take this tack means it is impossible to
include anything.

lindil: I don't quite think it is black and white as I mentioned above , we will have to decide as a group whether aesthetics is a factor.

Jallanite posted: So, keep Rog, both name and deeds. The readers to this
composite Silmarillion know they are reading a
composite work. At least let it be as full as it can be with
as many details as can possibly be kept.

Christopher Tolkien again and again in HoME speaks of
his regrets in making too many changes in The
Silmarillion text for reasons of style or consistency. To
remove the one mention of Rog from the short summary
of The Fall of Gondolin was unimportant. To remove him,
the first to ever slay a Balrog, from the full Fall of
Gondolin is a major excision. I suppose he could simply
be named as the Lord of the Hammer.

Lindil : l' of the Hammer ,while a noble attempt at a compromise is w/ out looking at the passages , prob a weak solution as you point out.
Re; the pro Rog points you made I think they are cogent arguments and in principle I agree , until I imagine seeing the word Rog in the Silm .<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> If a majority goes for it, i can stand by this though.

Jallanite posted:
But without evidence, we don't actually know that JRRT
would have changed that name.

lindil:No, but we can see that none of the 'crude' [to use the first word that comes to mind] elvish words survive from LT era into the post LotR phase. - this is of course subjective, but I think most will agree that JRRT at each change, both his improvments in the euphony of the languages, and the beauty of the story telling. Voronwe is more beautiful than Bronweg.Tolkien was extremely sensitive to such matters and i think we would be immulating a likely wish by coming up w/ a Rog alternative. As for the slaying of the Balrog's - we have already agreed that we have too many B'rog deaths .
If we have only seven:
Moria
ecthelion's
Glorfindil's
I believe the plural is used in the war of wrath, but I just realized a point in your favor- as maia they would be capable of re-embodyment, after a period of yearts [maybe too long to be of use in the war of Wrath].

Jallanite posted: Again, should not the rule be when in doubt keep it?
Otherwise almost everything will be jettisoned.

Lindil: I think we need to have a 'principles of revision' thread, and proceed to work on the Silm according to that , re-examing the issues as needed.

Unfortunately I have run out of time to adress the other points, hope to finish tonight, and ask the wight to create a private forum for the posting of texts.

Iwant to say though that even though there are clearly preferences that each of us has, I have never seen such focused and consistent posting here on the project , especially from such a diverse group. i am encouraged greatly!

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, and Gilthalion's http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him. </p>

Aiwendil

06-18-2001, 11:16 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Regarding Rog: The problem isn't that 'Rog' is unsuitable in later Quenya or Sindarin; on the contrary, it's found in the Sindarin compound 'balrog'. The problem is that it has a fairly clear meaning in modern Sindarin - 'Demon'. The Etymologies give RUK- as the root, with Q ranko and N rhaug. I think we can all agree such a name is unsuitable for an elf. The Gnomish lexicon gives 'rog' as 'doughty, strong', though CRT notes in BolT that it probably also meant 'fleet, swift'. Since 'strong' is the gloss that JRRT gives, however, I'd be inclined to think that Rog in FoG means 'strong'. Later Quenya for 'strong' might be *polda - at least, this is given in the Etym. (with stem POL-, POLOD- ) and is nowhere contradicted. Possible names from this stem might be Poldon (cf. saura, Sauron), Polwe (cf. Elwe, Finwe, Voronwe, etc.), or perhaps just Polda. Of these, my first choice would be to go with Poldon; the -we suffix seems to have been used mostly in older names (the notable exception being Voronwe).

Re: adding things from FoG to the 'later Tuor': I think there's a difference between adding things here and adding things to DoV, etc. The later Darkening of Valinor was considered by Tolkien merely part of the QS; there are thus many details that were left out that in a longer account would have been put in. With Tuor, we actually have what JRRT would have considered the detailed, full, account. I don't know if we should add details that he chose to leave out. Having said that, I agree in this instance that the detail would enhance the narrative - but on principle, I'm not sure if we should add it.

Quothe Lindil: I would prefere Quenya , an innovation i know but one that solves what i perceive as a problem w/ the least fuss, and it has precedent w/ Voronwe.

Aiwendil: It's definitely possible that the Legolas of FoG could have had a Quenya name in the later tale - however, this wouldn't solve the problem. It's the same name, whether its in Sindarin or Quenya, and if Thranduil cared enough not to name his son directly after someone from Gondolin, I don't think he would have been satisfied merely to translate the name into his own language. But I don't see a problem with reusing Legolas. Thranduil may have cared - but he may not have. And among Elves, I don't think the repetition of a name is necessarily meant as a tribute to the first person with that name, as it is among humans. We have Galdor repeated, without any indication that the 2nd was named for the 1st. Same thing for Gildor.

Re balrog numbers: I'm still not so sure that JRRT's note about 7 balrogs is valid. Even if we assume that only 2 died in the first age before the War of Wrath, leaving only 4 to die at Thangorodrim and 1 to escape to Moria, we still have a problem. The note says that probably no more than 7 ever existed - but then we have none to have been killed by the Valar in the War of the Powers. I think the 7 balrog note is a little like the one making Gil-Galad Fingon's son; it was no more than a passing thought. While it's true that there's nothing later to specifically contradict it, I don't think it can be taken without a grain of salt.

</p>

jallanite

06-18-2001, 06:50 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

On Rog

In "The Etymologies" under RUK- the N ( = Sindarin) form is rhaug, not rog. That is significant. If the form is thought to exist in Sindarin it is probably not from RUK-. Of course for rhaug or * raug the au diphthong will and does resolve to o in compounds such as Balrog, and will fall together with rog, which would encourage the disappearance of rog words whatever stem they come from. (If it meant "strong" and mreged with RUK- it would increasingly be understood as brutish strength, as monstrous strength, and then as simply a variant of rhaug).

Admittedly there is no obvious stem choice in "The Etymologies". (Maybe RAW- 'lion'?) But "The Etymologies" does not contain every stem.

I would certainly change Rog if an obvious choice came up, but am bothered at the idea of substituting any names or forms without solid justification for that form.

For example, on the basis of Bronweg to Bronwë we could change Rog to Rô (with lengthening of vowel to compensate for loss of final consonant in a monosyllable). This would assume that Noldorin/Sindarin rog does not derive from an earler form * rok in which case the final g would probably remain.

But to change Rog to Rô is just as arbitrary as to change Rog to Poldon or to Polwë. I am sure there are many other possible forms we could postulate. Unforunately many would be equally acceptable. This becomes linguistic fan fiction.

We know Rog is probably wrong, that Tolkien would probably have changed it, but can we change it?

On the Tuor's Harp

I was assuming the harp was rough in shape because made by himself after his escape from thralldom.

On the House of the Swan

I may not have been clear that I edited and placed this and the other two additions into my original post with extra comments on this particularly. Tolkien has actually rather cleverly kept the swan motif by giving it to Annael's people, who then might be called the House of the Swan. At the moment I am leaning toward the "fosterling of the House of the Swan" interpretation rather than House of Hador. But, as usual, no decision is right.

</p>

Tar Elenion

06-18-2001, 10:03 PM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

re 'K' to 'C':
I think the 'k'should stay. There is a passage in Letters (IIRC) where JRRT mentions regreting using the 'c' in LotR. I will attempt to find it when I have the chance.

Re Balrog numbers:
I am not sure that the idea was ephermeral. The earlier 1000+ Balrogs were much weaker than they became. It was about this time that JRRT was upgrading them to major Maiarin spirits. Thereare only 2 of the later and powerful Balrogs being slain prior to the War of Wrath (Glorfindel and Ecthelion). I doubt that Rog would have been kept as slaying one. 1000+ Balrogs in Beleriand with the power they had would have been odd to say the least. This is why I mentioned the Boldogs earlier.

re Dragons and CT and GGK:
I doubt there is anything in HoME backing up that passage in the published Sil., as JRRT did not ever revisit the Fall of Gondolin (unfortunately). However CT saw that it was rather obvious that JRRT would not have kept the mechanical Dragons of the earlier tale.

Re House of the Swan:
I am missing something here. What is the problem with this? Why change it? I cant find it in earlier posts to see what was meant.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 6/19/01 6:43:33 pm

Aiwendil

06-19-2001, 05:45 AM

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A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

I don't see a problem with the name 'Rog' as such - it is likely he would have changed it, but we do have examples of other primitive names that remained, e.g., Eol. And we have Sindarin names that end in -g (Forweg, for instance). Perhaps, then, we should leave it as it is, under the supposition that there is another root it's based on (though I have trouble imagining what root this might be; ROK- is given as 'horse').

Regarding balrog numbers: I agree that the thousands of balrogs were gone for good, and that their obvious increase in power was accompanied by a decrease in number. I'm just saying that the exact figure of 7 is not necessarily a firmly entrenched idea. A few reasons: 1. This is the only mention of that number; 2. Even the note itself uses the word 'probably'; 3. It looks like he later CORRECTED this figure to '3' - and 3 obviously doesn't work; 4. There still must be some that were killed in the War of the Powers.

Regarding dragons: I'd suggest we (obviously) eliminate the mechanical dragons, but remove the words 'of the brood of Glaurung' from CRT's version - it sort of implies a distinction between dragons that were of the brood of Glaurung and those that weren't.

</p>

Tar Elenion

06-19-2001, 05:11 PM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

--------------------------------
Quote:
Regarding balrog numbers: I agree that the thousands of balrogs were gone for good, and that their obvious increase in power was accompanied by a decrease in number. I'm just saying that the exact figure of 7 is not necessarily a firmly entrenched idea. A few reasons: 1. This is the only mention of that number; 2. Even the note itself uses the word 'probably'; 3. It looks like he later CORRECTED this figure to '3' - and 3 obviously doesn't work; 4. There still must be some that were killed in the War of the Powers.
--------------------------------

7 may not have been a firmly entrenched idea but to use another numer would be to make it up (or do you suggest going following CT's lead and giving no numbers?).

1), 2) and 4). One could presume the 7 to be those that the Elves knew of (ie in Beleriand) any others slain previously are what is meant by 'supposed' (where does JRRT use probably?). Then again maybe the Balrogs could have re-embodied. Or even why must any Balrogs be slain in the War of Powers?

3) What are you refering to as the 'later correction to 3'? The passage says '3 or at the most 7' and does not indicate a later correction to 3.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

Aiwendil

06-19-2001, 06:32 PM

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A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

<<3) What are you refering to as the 'later correction to 3'? The passage says '3 or at the most 7' and does not indicate a later correction to 3.>>

Dreadfully sorry about that. I should really try to stop quoting from memory. Anyway, my point is that since the number 3 was obviously generated without much thought or reference to the rest of the legendarium, I wouldn't put too much faith in the number 7 either.

<<Or even why must any Balrogs be slain in the War of Powers?>>

I'm not going to make this claim with certainty without the book in front of me, but I'm almost sure that one of texts in MR - either LQ or more likely AAm refers to the death of a number of balrogs before the onslaught of the Valar.

<<or do you suggest going following CT's lead and giving no numbers?>>

That's precisely what I suggest. I agree that we obviously cannot merely make up a different number; but I think that there's sufficient doubt about the figure of 7 that we need not mention it. I also think we can still have Rog slay a balrog (or else we'll have to cut out a very significant portion of the battle scene, and we'll be left with nothing about Rog at all). That would still allow 3 to have been killed in the War of Wrath, if we assume that the total of 7 must be kept.

</p>

Tar Elenion

06-19-2001, 08:04 PM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

------------------------
Quote:

<<Or even why must any Balrogs be slain in the War of Powers?>>

I'm not going to make this claim with certainty without the book in front of me, but I'm almost sure that one of texts in MR - either LQ or more likely AAm refers to the death of a number of balrogs before the onslaught of the Valar.
------------------------------

Yes, in Annal 1099 (HoME 10): at the end of the battle Morgoth 'sent forth a host of Balrogs and they assailed the standard of Manwe ... they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword' until Morgoth alone was left (which implies all were slain suggesting re-embodiment of some, though perhaps some were left elsewhere (Angband), I would have to research it more). This is referred back to when the note on '3 or 7 Balrogs' is discussed. It leaves one to wonder what JRRT might have changed this to. Perhaps changing it to 'demons' might not be inappropriate.

----------------------------
Quote:
<<or do you suggest going following CT's lead and giving no numbers?>>

That's precisely what I suggest. I agree that we obviously cannot merely make up a different number; but I think that there's sufficient doubt about the figure of 7 that we need not mention it. I also think we can still have Rog slay a balrog (or else we'll have to cut out a very significant portion of the battle scene, and we'll be left with nothing about Rog at all). That would still allow 3 to have been killed in the War of Wrath, if we assume that the total of 7 must be kept.
----------------------------------

I understand your point on Rog, though I disagree. :)
The later attestations seem to be only Ecthelion and Glorfindel. But that would leave finding something for Rog and his folk to kill. I don't recall that Rog is singled out for actually killing a Balrog but rather he and his men drove in to the Balrog host and slew many. Perhaps mentioning the 'Boldogs' again might be appropriate.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

lindil

06-21-2001, 06:25 AM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

On Boldogs and Balrog's
I agree, I don't see any need [yet] to mention the # of balrogs but using seven as a working model for Gondolin seems to make sense.

I have to admit that while the boldog seems a suitable replacement, it is rewriting in a way we have yet to contemplate on. we would not be giving creature xyz an updated name we would be changing the type of creature. I think if we had more info on the boldog's and even a hint somewhere [maybe it does exist and I've missed it?] that JRRT wanted to solve some of the balrog problems by replacing them w/ boldogs we would be in business, but, short of that we are left w/ 'use or loose' balrog situations.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, and Gilthalion's http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him. </p>

Tar Elenion

06-21-2001, 05:04 PM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

I understand what you are saying about the Boldogs, and dont really disagree. However I dont know whether it 'really' would be replacing one creature with another. The LotR Balrogs were radically different than the pre LotR Balrogs that made it into Tales that JRRT did not update (or did so only in brief notes). It is possible that it could be considered a name change. The Boldogs are minor Maiarin spirits similar to but weaker than the Balrogs. I dont think you have missed anything about them. I posted the I posted the Myths Transformed quote above but see MR page 418 for it in fuller context. This is the closest to a 'hint' that exists to my knowledge.
It is just something for everyone to think about.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

lindil

06-22-2001, 01:45 AM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

It might work Boldogs that is. But I think that JRRT's comments on X fall a little short of the kind of green light we need. I propose we look at it again with maximum scrutiny when we get to the appropriate section in FoG.

I am about to set up the New Translations from the Elvish Forum <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> so Pengolodh, Tar Elenion, Jallanite and Aiwendil look for a password in your email . Anyone else who may be interested can email me or better yet - post in the introduction thread.

I see the 2nd [TFE] forum as having to functions at this point although this is cert. open to group review.
1> a place to store base texts and our finished and working projects.
2 > a place to conduct anonymous votes on any give subject by poll w/ out having to let the poll function loose here in the Gen Silm project forum.

all discussion of the texts can still happen here so all can follow along.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, and Gilthalion's http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him. </p>

jallanite

06-24-2001, 05:58 PM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

I am responding here to three issues that have been raised, and have tried to deal with them exhaustively.

On Boldog:

All the material is in MT, text 10, Orcs. Tolkien is speculating that Orcs were derived from Men,and says they were by nature short-lived. This then seems to bring up a difficulty in his mind as his earlier conception of Elvish origin might make Orcs immortal in the same way Elves were. (That the goblins of The Hobbit actually recognized Orcrist and Glamdring from Gondolin is perhaps the only published text that indicates this, but Tolkien certainly had much in his mind that he either did not put on paper or has not survived.) Tolkien then tries to account for apparently long-lived Orcs:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> This last point was not well understood in the Elder Days. For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible.^4 Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.*^5

****[footnote to the text] Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs.

4**Cf. text IX, p.*414: 'But always among them [Orcs] (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes'; also text VIII. p. 410.

5**The footnote at this point, stating that ' Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War'. and was perhaps not a personal name, is curious. Boldog appears several times in the Lay of Leithian as the name of the Orc-captain who led a raid into Doriath (references in the Index to The Lays of Beleriand; he reappears in the Quenta (IV.113), but is not mentioned thereafter. I do not know of any other references to an Orc named Boldog.<hr></blockquote>The Quenta reference is:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Boldog captain of the Orcs was there slain in battle by Thingol, ...<hr></blockquote>It would seem that Tolkien in his mind saw Boldog playing a greater part in the tale than in the extant texts, presumably as a leader in earlier battles between Elves and Orcs, and this part was either never actually written down or has become lost. But if Orcs are short-lived, how could this be? Tolkien then speculates that Boldog may have been a title not a personal name, or may have been the name applied to Orc-formed Maiar. Or is that last note actally saying that Boldog was the name of a particular creature who was one of the Orc-formed Maiar. This interpretation agrees less readily with the wording but more readily with the logic.

This speculation would be unnecessary if in legends of the First Age more than one Boldog appeared at a single time. Multiple Boldogs in one tale, at least by that name, did not occur and should not be made to occur, even if Boldog were to be accepted as name for incarnate Maiar in Orc-form and not some other sort of title. Possibly also it was the personal name of a particular Maia in Orc-form.

That Tolkien would have replaced some of the Balrogs in the "Fall of Gondolin" with "Orc-formed Maia" may be true. But would the Elves know an Orc-formed Maia from a true Orc? One could probably change some of the Balrogs into something like "Great Orcs" instead, if justification can be found to change them into anything. I don't believe the word "Boldog" can be used. (I know that we aren't to use asethetics for anything but very, very low-level choosing, but also I don't find it particularly effective to have Gondolin razed by an army of bull-dogs.)

The House of the Swan

In the BoLT version of "The Fall of Gondolin" there are several references connecting Tuor to the swans:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now on the quiet waters of Mithrim over which the voice of the duck or moorhen would carry far he had fared much in a small boat with a prow fashioned like to the neck of a swan,<hr></blockquote>Later:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> This by slow labour he adorned with fair carvings of the beasts and trees and flowers and birds that he knew about the waters of Mithrim, and ever among them was the Swan the chief, for Tuor loved this emblem and it became the sign of himself, his kindred and folk thereafter.<hr></blockquote>On his entrance to Gondolin Tuor claims:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I am Tuor son of Peleg son of Indor of the house of the Swan of the sons of the Men of the North who live far hence, ...<hr></blockquote>Within Gondolin:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Upon a time the king caused his most cunning artificers to fashion a suit of armour for Tuor as a great gift, and it was made of Gnome-steel overlaid with silver; but his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's ring was wrought on his shield;<hr></blockquote>Of the name of Tuor's "house":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and the bodyguard of Tuor, the folk of the Wing, was accounted the twelfth.<hr></blockquote>The phrases "folk of the Wing" and "guard of the Wing", "my men of the Wing" are also used later in the account.

It is not clear then what Tolkien means by "House of the Swan". It might be that he changed his mind in the midst of writing, as he was wont to do, and decided that the Swan was a token of Tuor's ancestral lineage, not a symbol he himself had adopted. Or it might be that it was the custom to name oneself fully by giving the name of one's father and grandfather, and then the "House" that one belonged to. Since Tuor lives solitary, not connected to any other "House", he belonged then only to his own House, and since his last permanent dwelling was ornamented with carved swans, he might well say, in an attempt not to appear altogether rustic and uncouth, that he is of the "House of the Swan".

"House" does not imply a necessary blood relationship. In Gondolin Tuor has his own House of the Wing to which many Elves belong. In the later "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" Voronwë claims to be of the "House of Turgon", though he could not be of very close kin to Turgon. In LR Gildor Inglorion of the "House of Finrod" may be only declaring that he belongs to a House named from Finrod, perhaps mostly the remnant of Finrod's House in Nargothrond, or a House whose core was made up of Elves who had formally dwelt in Nargothrond, not that he is of close kin to Finrod.

In any case, no later reference indicates any connection between the symbol of a swan or swan's wing and Tuor's ancestry.

"Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" drops all reference to the swan-prowed boat and to Tuor's building a house with swan carvings. When he sees the swans that he will follow to his destiny, we are told rather: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now Tuor loved swans, which he knew on the grey pools of Mithrim; and the swan moreover had been the token of Annael and his foster-folk.<hr></blockquote>When Tuor enters Vinyamar and sees the arms and shield with a swan's wing thereon, he says:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'By this token I will take these arms unto myself, and upon myself whatsoever doom they bear.'<hr></blockquote>Tuor takes the swan's wing on the shield as an omen from his own particular love of swans, because they were the token of Annael and his foster-folk to whom he belonged, and because (I would assume) he has been led to them by swans.

If "House of the Swan" is let stand, then it must refer to Annael and his people, and to Tuor insomuch as he was one of those people and may still feel so. Tuor seems to be one well suited to solitary life, but it would be reasonable that eventually he would indeed have gone to the south in search of Annael and his people had Ulmo not intervened. We might even reinstate the building of Tuor's house, though now inland by the marshes of Linaewen rather then on the coast at Falasquil, and let "House of the Swan" also stand in relation to this house as I have indicated might have been Tolkien's meaning.

Or we might change the phrase to "fosterling of the House of the Swan", or something similar.

Changing it to "House of Hador" is a likely substitution. At the time of the primitive "Fall of Gondolin" no such House existed, and nothing indicates what Tuor's affiliaton was with other Men, but in the later background and genealogy it would somewhat surprising for him not to announce that he was of the House of Hador.

We could also simply drop the phrase as probably no longer valid.

I don't see any of these solutions as necessarily more right than another, which is unfortunate. Perhaps one here goes by the rule of don't change anything you don't have to change, and so leave it untouched for the reader to misunderstand.

Thorondor on the Iron Mountains

That Thorondor (for so I shall name him here ignoring the variation in texts) dwelt on Thangorodrim, or at least on the Iron Mountains from which Thangorodrim jutted out, is an early concept. In BoLT 1, chapter IV "The Theft of Melko":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and that was most bitter when Sorontur and his folk fared to the Iron Mountains and there abode, watching all that Melko did.<hr></blockquote>In The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), II The Earliest 'Silmarillion', 8:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and sends them under their king Thorndor to dwell in the crags of the North and watch Morgoth. The eagles dwell out of reach of Orc and Balrog, and are great foes of Morgoth and his people.<hr></blockquote>This account remains essentially the same through the texts of the Silmarillion tradition to the account in The Lost Road (HoME 5), VI Quenta Silmarillion, §93:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... had sent forth the race of Eagles. Thorondor was their king. And Manwë commanded them to dwell in the crags of the North, and keep watch upon Morgoth; for Manwë still had pity for the exiled Elves. And the Eagles brought news of much that passed in those days to the sad ears of Manwë; and they hindered the deeds of Morgoth.<hr></blockquote>There are no later emendations of this text. But none of the texts in this line give Thorondor's actual dwelling place.

That Thorondor was not dwelling on the Encircling Mountains from the beginning first appears as part of the Silmarillion tradition in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), II The Earliest 'Silmarillion', 15 telling of the founding of Gondolin after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thorndor King of Eagles removes his eyries to the Northern heights of the encircling mountains and guards them against Orc-spies.<hr></blockquote>The passage is later expanded in ibid., III The Quenta, §15 in the Q II version:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In those days Thorndor King of Eagles removed his eyries from Thangorodrim, because of the power of Morgoth, and the stench and fumes, and the evil of the dark clouds that lay now ever upon the mountain-towers above his cavernous halls. But Thorndor dwelt upon the northward heights above the Encircling Mountains, and he kept watch and saw many things, sitting upon the cairn of King Fingolfin.<hr></blockquote>Here explicitly re-emerges the BoLT tale that Thorondor dwelt on the Iron Mountains, indeed, as we are told for the first time, on Thangorodrim itself.

Soon after this Tolkien decided to place the foundation of Gondolin long before the breaking of the Siege, and does so in a brief note under year 50 in "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand". No mention of Thorondor or the eagles are made at this point (and perhaps in so brief an annal we should not expect them to be). All later tales of the foundation of Gondolin are expansions of this annal showing no influence in their wording from the earlier accounts of its foundation after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

A mention of Thorondor and his eagles might have been lost for this reason. There is only the inconclusive mention in "Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin": in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), Part Two: The Later Quenta Silmarillion, 12 "Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... in a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor.<hr></blockquote>But the presence of eagles near Gondolin was always an important feature, and one might expect Tolkien to use a word such as "dwell" rather than "came" and to introduce their guardianship of Gondolin if he thought they had their eyries there at that time. This is the latest account of the founding of Gondor and a very finished and polished text.

So if they were not dwelling in Crissaegrim then, when did they begin to dwell there?

That Thorondor took the body of Fingolfin to a mountain-top above Tumladen is already found in the "Lay of Leithien" Canto XII, and is taken up in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), III The Quenta, 9. His presence at the battle is unexplained; but if he was then thought to be dwelling on Thangorodrim it does not need to be. Thorondor carries of Fingolfin's body to a mountain-peak which by chance is close by where Gondolin will be founded by Fingolfin's son Turgon many years later.

Perhaps to reduce this element of chance in the The Lost Road (HoME 5), Quenta Silmarillion, §147, Thorondor is protrayed as dwelling in the Encircling Mountains at the time of the battle and only coming to the battlefield late after Fingolfin's death:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of Gochressiel, and he stooped upon Morgoth, ...<hr></blockquote>This account of the death of Fingolfin is the last one Tolkien made. Christopher Tolkien provides the final revisions to this part of the Silmarillion in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), Part Two: The Later Quenta Silmarillion, chapter 15 "Of the Ruin of Berleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin". The only pertinent emendation is a manuscript change of Gochressiel to Crissaegrim which is taken up in the typescript Christopher Tolkien calls LQ*1. Christopher Tolkien writes of the typescript in Morgoth's Ring in his introduction to Part Three: The Later Quenta Silmarillion:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It seems virtually certain that it was made in 1951(-2).<hr></blockquote>This material was then retyped as QS*2 about 1957.

However Christopher Tolkien notes in his commentary on the material in this section in The War of the Jewels that much of the correction here is very casual. In particular:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The only alterations that my father made to the passage in LQ*2, however, were the replacement of Gumlin by Galdor and Haleth by Halmir*** thus retaining the long since rejected story while substituting the new names that had entered with the chapter Of the Coming of Men into the West. This was obviously not his intention (probably he altered the names rapidly throughout the chapter without considering the content in this paragraph), and indeed he marked the passage in the margin with an X and noted against it 'This is incorrect story. See Annals and tale of Túrin'.<hr></blockquote>Of the date of the tale "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" Christopher Tolkien in UT only says in the introduction:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It seems very likely that this was written in 1951, when The Lord of the Rings was finished but its publication doubtful.<hr></blockquote>In the Grey Annals §111 and §299 material in agreement with "Of Tuor" is inserted to replace older accounts. Presumably at the same time a new rider which Christopher Tolkien supplies in The Later Quenta Silmarillion as "Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin" was created containing much of the same material word-for-word. This appears in its proper place in LQ*1.

So LQ*1 agrees in all respects with the revisions introduced in "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" except for Voronwë's statement that Thorondor's folk "dwelt once even on Thangorodrim ere Morgoth grew so mighty, and dwell now in the Mountains of Turgon since the fall of Fingolfin." Considering the casual and incomplete nature of the corrections to LQ*1 and especially LQ*2 it is not now clear to me that Voronwë's claim can be disregarded. That is, in general LQ 1 and LQ 2 can be trusted for what they change, but not always for what they retain.

Conclusions:

*****1. I see no indication that the dwelling of Thorondor and his people on Thangorodrim was ever discarded.

*****2. It seems to me to be equally valid to remove "ere Morgoth grew so mighty" and "now" and "since the fall of Fingolfin" from Voronwë's speech, or to remove "from Crissaegrim" from the QS77 account. In the late LQ*1 and LQ*2 manuscripts Tolkien often did correct word-forms without properly correcting the story, while "Of Tuor" is a fully considered revision and a full account (not a summary) to which in every other respect all later material is brought into accord. (I may say that it also seems more sensible that Thorondor would fly a short distance from an eyrie on Thangorodrim or the Iron Mountains to the battlefield then all the way from Crissaegrim. What tidings would have come to him in time that he would know to make that flight?)

Altogether now: "WHO CARES?!!!!!!"

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanite</A> at: 6/24/01 8:39:23 pm

lindil

06-26-2001, 07:51 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 660</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
3 points

I think Jallanite that I agree w/ you on all counts. As for Tuor representing himself as of the House of Hador or as a fosterling of the House of the Swan - either can work as can deleting any reference. Since JRRT has him declaring himself which is common practice in M-E then retaining it in some form makes since. He was proud [rightfully] of both. Hador is most clearcut as there is no doubt he could have said that and on one other occasion I think he does in the hidden entrance saying something like 'I am told that these names [Huor/Hador] are not unknown in Gondolin.

Def. the kind of decision we can make as we go thru the text paragraph by P. or however we do it.

</p>

lindil

07-02-2001, 12:01 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 667</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
time for Voting ?

Shall we make our first formal decision ?
I was reading over the earlier pages of this thread and saw that we will need to decide the Ork/Orc
question very soon into FoG, so i propose that we use our poll function in the TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ELVISH forum - just to get folks plugged in and rolling w/ the process. I will hold off - awaiting your replies.

-lindil

</p>

lindil

07-06-2001, 07:40 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

hmm, maybe everyone [but telchar ]is on vacation?

I propose that we begin a few things w/ actual work on the texts:
I> begin inserting Jallanite's revisions into the Lost Tales version. then vote on the changes he felt were more questionable.

II> Work on the difficult interchange between the UT and LT/77/IV versions where Tuor gives his message and see's the city etc. I propose calling this section 'the changeover' or ' CO' as I imagine reference to it will occur frequently for awhile.

III> dividing the LT version into sections according to the previously given outline [pengolodh's ? Aiwendil's?] inserting the later material as needed, in rough form.

For each of the sections above 1-3 I suggest there be one or if more are interested 2 leaders , 1 of whom does the posting on the TFE forum [and will be the editor ] they will create the rough material that when finished we can all [sect. IV] make proposals and vote on ammendments.

IV> go over everything / a fine tooth comb as above.

Sound workable?
Better idea's?
Want to head up a section?

-lindil

</p>

jallanite

07-08-2001, 04:46 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

<u> The Closing Portions</u>
[Last revised 2001.07.13]

I've already completed most of the following before Lindir's last post with the idea of getting the easiest material out of the way first, so will post it now.

I am dealing here with the last part of "The Fall of Gondolin" material beginning just before Ecthelion's battle with Gothmog at the pargraph beginning "Now Tuor reached the Square of the Folkwell by a way entering from the north, and found there Galdor ...." The story in the later QS77 and almost identical Q30 is almost unchanged from FG from this point on, and passages where there are problems with great numbers of Balrogs or details of mechanical dragons are few and easily modifed if necessary.

This gets a very large section of the tale out of the way and allows concentration on the Huor in Gondolin section (problematic because of many changes in plot and underlying conceptions) and the early battle section (problematic because of multitudes of Balrogs and mechanical dragons).

Codes for my sources are as follows:
BoLT 1 The Book of Lost Tales 1 (HoME 1).
FG "The Fall of Gondolin" from The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoME 2).
TE "The Tale of Eärendel" from The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoME 2).
Q30 "The Quenta", written in 1930, from The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4). Quotations are from §16 and from §17 in the Q2 version including later emendations as per the notes.
AB 2 "The Later Annals of Beleriand", written about 1936?, from The Lost Road (HoME 5). Unknown to Christopher Tolkien when he produced QS77.
Tuor "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin", written about 1951 from Unfinished Tales
Elessar The Elessar from "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in UT.
TY "The Tale of Years", (1951-52), from The War of the Jewels (HoME 11)
PG The Parentage of Gil-galad, a long note by Christopher Tolkien appended to SF, containing material by his father on this matter.
SF "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", Feburary 1968 or later, in the chapter of the same name from "The Peoples of Middle-earth" (HoME 13).
QS77 Quenta Silmarillion as published in The Silmarillion edited by Christopher Tolkien in 1977.

I also use the codes B! meaning too many Balrogs in the original text and D! meaning mechanical dragon in the original text to indicate this is the reason for editing a particular passage. If it is decided to keep some or all mechanical dragons or many Balrogs are in the end not felt to be a problem, then these passages can be kept unchanged.

To make references easier I have given each mini-discussion a code of the form FG-C followed by a two-digit decimal number. The C stands for closing. (Decimal numbers could be used for any problem passages I have missed, to keep the order.)

Each section lists the sources from which it is drawn in its header. The first source listed is the primary source, and the second is the secondary source. Main text is always from the primary source and inserted text from the secondary source. When there are more than two sources the codes given at the beginning of this post will be included at the beginning of each insertion.

I naturally do not include passages where the only change is regular normalization: change of a proper name to the latest form, change of a directional word, or changing quotation mark standards from double then single to single then double.

On the directional words: Tolkien reversed compass directions in the accounts following FG so that, at least in parts of the battle and in the flight of the fugitives, FG "south" must become "north", FG "north" must become "south", and FG "west" must become "east". These changes are to be made in the geography of Gondolin, Tumladen, and the Encircling Mountains everywhere in FG (other than in placing the Way of Escape to the west).

The following symbols are used:
[ ] Normalized, usually used for proper names indicating they are here in final form, not as in original text. Eg. "[Huor]" probably represents an original "Peleg", "[nor]thward", represents original "southward", and "[']" represents original """.
< > Material inserted from secondary source. If more than one secondary source occurs in the passage then a code appears after the opening angle-bracket, eg. "< QS77 ".
{ } Material to be deleted.
<u>Underline</u> Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

I have replaced FG wording with that from Q30 as preferrable because it reflects JRRT's later thoughts, but do not otherwise change the text of FG for stylistic reasons. That is a totally separate matter from constructing a logically coherent base text from all sources.

<u> FG-C01 (FG, Q30, BoLT*1):</u> B! [Addition by jallanite 2001.07.13: Possibly reduce the Balrogs here from many to one per Aiwendil's comments?]:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... where a force of Or[k]s {led by Balrogs} came on them at unawares ...<hr></blockquote>or:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... where a force of Or[k]s led by <u>a</u> Balrog{s} came on them at unawares ...<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C02 (FG):</u> B! Reduce Balrogs from many to one (rather than omit) as in the next paragraph Gothmog, lord of Balrogs, appears.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But now the men of [Morgoth] have assembled their forces, and seven dragons of fire are come with Or[k]s about them and <u>a</u> Balrog{s} upon <u>one of</u> them down all the ways from [sou]th, [we]st, and [ea]st, seeking the Square of the King.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C03 (FG):</u> Gothmog as Melko/Morgoth's son occurs only here and in two other places in BoLT, never later. Therefore delete the reference:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... even Gothmog lord of Balrogs{, son of Melko}.<hr></blockquote> <u> FG-C04 (FG):</u> B! <blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... that they swept again much of the square, {and of the Balrogs slew even two scores,} which is a very great prowess indeed;<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C05 (FG, Q30):</u> There is no mention in any text later than FG that the prophecy of the North specifically mentioned the fall of Gondolin, naming the city itself.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then said the king: [']Great is the fall of Gondolin['], and men shuddered{,for such were the words of Amnon the prophet of old}; but Tuor speaking wildly ...<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C06 (FG):</u> Rewording:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gling[a]l was {withered} <u>melted</u> to the stock and B[elthi]l was blackened utterly, and the king's tower was beset.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C07 (FG, Q30):</u> Additional details:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> There came they at last lessened by wellnigh a tithe to the tunnel's opening <far beyond the walls and in the North of the plain where the mountains were long distant from Amon Gware[d]>, and it debouched cunningly in a large basin where once water had lain, but it was now full of thick bushes.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C08 (FG):</u> D!<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Fire-drakes are about it and monsters {of iron} fare in and out of its gates, and great is the sack of the Balrogs and Or[k]s.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C09 (FG, Q30):</u> The Way of Escape was closed according to "The Wanderings of Húrin", and therefore Christopher Tolkien omitted the mentions of it in the Q77 fall of Gondolin. But it is possible that, though closed from the outside, it was still able to be opened from the inside and that JRRT intended this. If the Way of Escape material is to be omitted then:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thereat {rose a dissension, for a number of ... sat at the outer issue that none came through. But} the {others} <fugitives>, led by one Legolas Greenleaf ...<hr></blockquote>If kept, then some changed wording and additional matter from Q30:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Nonetheless a large body of men and women {sundered from} <who would not come with> Tuor {and fared to Bad Uthwen, and there into the jaws of a monster who by the guile of Melko at Meglin's rede sat at the outer issue that none came through} <, but fled to the old Way of Escape that led into the gorge of Sirion <u>and opened it anew</u>, were caught and destroyed by a dragon that Morgoth had sent to watch that gate, being apprised of it by M[a]eglin. But of the new passage M[a]eglin had not heard, and it was not thought that fugitives would take a path towards the North and the highest parts of the mountains and the nighest to Angband>.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C10 (FG, Q30):</u> Rewording:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then was all the Earth spread with the grey light of that sad dawn which looked no more on the beauty of Gondolin; but the {plain was full of mists} <fume of the burning, and the steam of the fair fountains of Gondolin withering in the flame of the dragons of the North, fell upon the vale in mournful mists>*** and that was a marvel, for no mist or fog came there ever before{, and this perchance had to do with the doom of the fountain of the king}. Again they rose, and covered by the vapours fared long past dawn in safety, till they were already too far away for any to descry them in those misty airs from the hill or from the ruined wall<; and thus was the escape of Tuor and his company aided, for there was still a long and open road to follow from the tunnel's mouth to the foothills of the mountains>.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C11 (FG, Q30):</u> Added description:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and very weary and cumbered with <many> women and children and <many> stricken men, ...<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C12 (FG, Q30):</u> Rewording:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thus were they come to C[irith Thoronath], which is a{n ill} <dreadful> place by reason of its height, ...<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C13 (FG, Q30):</u> Insertion to be placed here if the Way of Escape passage is omitted, otherwise it has already been used:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Yet so many did the valour of the Gondo[lindr]im draw off to the assault ere the city could be taken that these were but thinly spread, and were at the least here in the [nor]th<, and it was not thought that fugitives would take a path towards the North and the highest parts of the mountains and the nighest to Angband>.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C14 (FG):</u> The tale of why Thorondor hates Morgoth should be kept it as does not contradict anything else, but though it would fit in this place in an independent story of the fall of Gondolin, in the legendarium as a whole it should be related much earlier, possibly when Thorondor aids in rescuing Maedhros, but probably best just before he scars Morgoth and rescues the body of Fingolfin. Omit here:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then arose Thor[o]ndor, King of Eagles, and he loved not M[orgoth]{, for M[orgoth] had caught many ... a mighty pair for his use, but it availed not}.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C15 (FG, Q30):</u> Rewording:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and Thor[o]ndor himself, a mighty bird, descended to the abyss and {brought up the body of Glorfindel} <bore up Glorfindel's body>; ...<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C16 (FG, Q30):</u> Rewording. Also FG claims Thorondor is still protecting the cairn and flowers still blow there. This might be allowed to stand on consideration that possibly that tale was written down at the mouths of Sirion before the breaking of Beleriand, but I think it is best to omit. Also Q30 adds here an account of how the eagles slew all the Orks, which I take to be an addition to FG, not a retrospective account of the Eagles' part in the battle. JRRT is explaining why no word of the fugitives came to the army or to Morgoth: because the Eagles pursued and slew all the Orks. Doubtless it was believed the Eagles alone were to blame for the slaughter of the Orks and Balrog and so no search was made for fugitives in that region.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... Tuor let raise a great {stone-cairn} <mound of stones> over Glorfindel just there beyond the perilous {way} <pass> by the precipice of Eagle-stream, and Thor[o]ndor {has} let not {yet} any harm come thereto, {but yellow flowers have fared thither} <and there came after a turf of green and small flowers like yellow stars bloomed there> and {blow} <u>blew</u> ever {now} about that mound {in those unkindly places} <amid the barrenness of stone>; but the folk of the Golden Flower wept at its building and might not dry their tears. <And the birds of Thor[o]ndor stooped upon the Or[k]s and drove them shrieking back; and all were slain or cast into the deeps, and rumour of the escape from Gondolin came not until long after to Morgoth's ears.><hr></blockquote><u> FG-C17 (FG):</u> An omission as we have just been told in Q30 that "rumour of the escape from Gondolin came not until long after to Morgoth's ears":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and from the speed and wariness with which Tuor led them{; for of a certain Melko knew of that escape and was furious thereat}.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C18 (FG):</u> In the latest version of TY we find:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 510***Midsummer. Assault and sack of Gondolin, owing to treachery of Maeglin who revealed where it lay.
511***Exiles of Gondolin (Tuor, Idril and Eärendil &c.) reach Sirion, which now prospers in the power of the Silmaril.<hr></blockquote>That the fugitives arrive at Sirion's mouth in the year following the sack of Gondolin first appears in the "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand" and is never changed after. The much lengthier chronology in FG must be modified to fit:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But after {a year and more of} wandering{,} in which many a time they journeyed long tangled in the magic of those wastes only to come again upon their own tracks, {once more the summer came, and nigh to its height} they came at last upon a stream, and following this came to better lands and were a little comforted.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C19 (FG):</u> A omission required if the previous Way of Escape section is dropped:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now he led them even till they came down to Sirion which that stream fed{, and then both Tuor and Voronwë saw that they were not far from the outer issue of old of the Way of Escape ... who sundered aforetime from them at the tunnel-mouth}.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C20 (FG):</u> Omission of probably invalid material. Tulkas seemingly did not accompany the host of Valinor in the later versions of the War of Wrath and there is no indication that any battle occurred in this area in the later versions; indeed the whole tale seems changed. Also in the new version of Tuor's story he has not previously been near this region.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now here goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the Pools of Twilight{, even where Tulkas after fought with Melko's self. Tuor had fared over these regions by night and dusk after Ulmo came to him amid the reeds, and he remembered not the ways}.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C21 (FG, Q30):</u> Add Elvish name:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Yet came they at last to the great pools and the edges of <Nan-Tathr[e]n><u>,</u> that most tender Land of Willows; and the very breath of the winds thereof brought rest and peace to them, ... still in bitter thraldom in the Hells of Iron sang not, nor did they smile<hr></blockquote>[Added entry by jallanite 2001.07.13:
<u> FG-C21.1 (FG, Q30):</u> Here might be inserted a slightly modified version of the Fragment of the alliterative Lay of Eärendel found in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), II Poems Early Abandoned. This would appear as a retrospective summary of the story from the actual fall to this point in the tale. The actual suggested modifications are in a following post. This insertion was orginally suggested for item FG-C23, but there are philosophical and textual difficulties that prohibit this positioning.]

<u> FG-C22 (FG, Q30):</u> Omission for chronological reasons and insertion from Q30.
[Addition to this post by jallanite 2001.07.13:
FG brings in here the decision to remove to the Sea, and then a festival before they depart. Q30 has a festival and then the decision to remove to the Sea, which we must follow as this is Tolkien's most latest ordering. But FG also brings in a notation as they prepare to depart and begin to hold the feast, that it is spring. This note about the season should appear first, and so is inserted here also, as was not the case when orginally posted]:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****{Here they abode very long indeed, and Eärendel was a grown boy ere} <There><u>,</u> when spring set celandine in the meads<u>,</u> <they made a> sad <feast in the memory of Gondolin and those that had perished, fair maidens, wives, and warriors and their king; but for Glorfindel the well-beloved many and sweet were the songs they sang.><hr></blockquote><u> FG-C23</u> [Material originally placed here has been slightly reworked and repositioned as FG-C21.1, jallan 2001.07.13.]

<u> FG-C24 (Q30):</u> Immediately follows with omission to agree with Tuor:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And there Tuor in song spoke to Eärend[il] his son of the coming of Ulmo aforetime, the sea-vision {in the midst of the land}><u>.</u><hr></blockquote><u> FG-C25:</u> Here should be inserted a version of the poem "The Horns of Ylmir" from Appendix 2 to Q30. Suggested form of the text to be inserted appears following in a separate post.

<u> FG-C26 (FG, Q30):</u> Rewording:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The voice of Ulmo's conches drew the heart of Tuor{,} that his sea-longing returned with a thirst the deeper for years of stifling{;}<u>,</u> <in his heart and in his son's. Wherefore {all that host} <the most part of the people> arose at his bidding, and {got them} <they removed> down Sirion to the Sea.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C27 (FG, Q30):</u> Omissions for reasons of chronology. Tuor and the fugitives no longer spend years in the land of Willows and the FG festival in memorial of Glorfindel held after the decision to go to the Sea must correspond to the Q30 feast in memory of Gondolin where songs are sung for Glorfindel already included from the fuller Q30 account, though there it is held before the decision. [Change made by jallan 2001.07.13: the reference to celandine in the spring is deleted in this passage and inserted in FG-C22 where the festival is now located.]<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But they who arose from the grasses of the Land of Willows {in years after} and fared way to the sea, {when spring set celandine in the meads and they held sad festival in memorial of Glorfindel,} these numbered ...<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C28 (FG):</u> Omission of anachronistic listing of cities as could not exist as part of the original tale, except as a very late marginal note.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Nor {Bablon, nor Ninwi, nor the towers of Trui, nor} all the many takings {of Rûm} that {is} <u>are</u> greatest among Men, saw such terror as fell that day upon Amon Gware[d] in the kindred of the [Elves];<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C29 (FG, Q30, TE*N(i)):</u> True ending of the tale of Tuor:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****Yet now those exiles of Gondolin dwelt at the mouth of Sirion by the waves of the Great Sea< Q30, and joined their folk to the slender company of Elwing daughter of Dior, that had fled thither little while before>. There they take the name of Loth[r]im, the people of the flower, for Gondo[lindr]im is a name too sore to their hearts; and fair among the Loth[r]im Eärend[il] grows in < TE*N(i) the Isle of Sirion in> the < TE*N(i) snow-white stone> house of his father, and the great tale of Tuor is come to its waning.<hr></blockquote>All following material is placed in BoTL, in the Sketch, and in Q30 as part of the introduction to the tale of Eärendil, not as part of the story of Tuor. Either position can work. Which is best depends on how much material we have on the youth of Eärendil before Tuor sets sail. I think we won't find much more than Christopher Tolkien did, and will probably end up following his lead in including these final events and Tuor's departure as an epilogue to the Tuor story rather than the prologue to the Eärendil story.

<u> FG-C30 (PG, SF, QS77):</u> Of Gil-galad:

Christopher Tolkien adds at this point in Q77 a passage partly editorial:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And when the tidings came to Balar of the fall of Gondolin and the death of Turgon, Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon was named High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth.<hr></blockquote>The sources of this, so far as I can trace are all in The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 13):

In an isolated note found with the genealogies dated August 1965, published in PG:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.) Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Ñoldor there.<hr></blockquote>From SF under the note The Names of Finwë's descendants, 5, under the discussion of Galadriel:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Galad also occurs in the epessë of Ereinion ('scion of kings') by which he was chiefly remembered in legend, Gil-galad 'star-of-radiance': he was the last king of the Eldar in Middle-earth, and the last male descendant of Finwë^47 except Elrond Half-elven. The epessë was given to him because his helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with silver and set with a device of white stars, shone from afar like a star in sunlight or moonlight and could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height.

47 He was the son of Arothir, nephew of Finrod.<hr></blockquote>Gil-galad is no longer the son of Fingon sent to Círdan at the Havens, and I expect it was the connection to the Havens which led Christopher Tolkien to introduce Balar here. Details of Gil-galad's mother best belong in the story of Túrin. I suggest the following might be a suitable enhancement/correction of the QS77 sentence [slightly re-edited by jallanite 2001:07:13 to fit the source more closely]:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Ereinion Gil-galad son of Orodreth, who had escaped the fall of Nargothrond and come to Sirion's Mouth, was <named> King of the Noldor there. He was <u>styled</u> Gil-galad, Star of Radiance, because his helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with silver and set with a device of white stars, shone from afar like a star in sunlight or mooonlight and could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height.<hr></blockquote><u> FG-C31 (Q30, AB 2, Elessar, QS77):</u> A mixture of sources for the foundation of the new havens [re-edited since first posting to add mention of the Elessar]:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Yet by Sirion and the sea there grew up an elven folk, the gleanings of Gondolin and Doriath<u>.</u>< AB 2 The Silmaril brought blessing upon them <u>and</u> < Elessar <u>Idril</u> wore the <u>Elessar</u> upon her breast>< AB*2, and they were healed, and they multiplied> < QS77; and from Balar the mariners of Círdan came among them>, and they took to the waves and the building of ships < AB 2 and built a haven>, dwelling ever nigh unto the shores < QS77 of Arvernien>, < AB 2 upon the delta amid the waters> under the shadow of Ulmo's hand. < AB 2 Many fugitives gathered unto them.> <hr></blockquote>I do not know the original source of either of the two addition from QS77 I have inserted. The first is too reasonable to reject, and the second is, I think, Christopher Tolkien's way of getting the name Arvernien found in Bilbo's "Song of Eärendil" in LR into QS77 text. It otherwise only appears on the QS77 map.

<u> FG-C32 (Q30):</u> In the pleading of Ulmo there are stylistic differences and certain omissions from the Q30 version to the QS77 version, probably changes made by Christopher Tolkien himself for aesthetic reasons, and to be ignored unless someone can find other sources. Stick to Q30 here.

<u> FG-C33 (TE*B, TE*C, TE*D, TE*E, TE*N(ii)):</u> To be inserted at this point:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****<u>Then began</u> the love of < TE*C Elwing> and Eärend[il] as girl and boy. < TE E The mermaids><u>, the</u> < TE D Oarni><u>,</u> < TE E c{o}<u>a</u>me to Eärend[il]> <u>and</u> < TE N(ii) g{i}<u>a</u>ve to {Eärendel} <u>him</u> a wonderful shining silver coat that wet{s}<u>ted</u> not. They love<u>d</u> Eärend[il], in Ossë's despite, and {teach} <u>taught</u> him the lore of boat-building and of swimming, as he play{s}<u>ed</u> with them about the shores of Sirion.> < TE*D Eärend[il] grew <u>to be the</u> fairest of all Men that were or are<u>,</u>> < TE N(iii) smaller than most men but nimbled-footed and a swift swimmer (but Voronwë could not swim).> < TE*C <u>And there was</u> great love <u>between</u> Eärend[il] and Tuor.><hr></blockquote>Mention of the Oarni and mermaids is only found in BoLT material. The Quenya word Oarni appears from the Appendix to BoLT 1 under Ónen to be from the root 'o'o and related to Ô, a poetic word for 'sea'. But this root and everything connected with it disappears in later writings, where the normal word for "sea" in Quenya is ëar from a stem AYAR-, itself explained as an extended stem from GAYA- 'awe, dread'. So it is difficult to even guess what word, if any, Tolkien would have used to replace Oarni. To further confuse the matter in TE N(viii) we find:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'The fiord of the Mermaid: enchantment of his sailors: Mermaids are not Oarni (but are earthlings, or fays?*** or both).'<hr></blockquote>However in TE D the two are equated, and in other texts it is either the Oarni or the mermaids who are named as Eärendel's friends. Tolkien may in this note only mean that these particular hostile "mermaids" were not true Oarni but another kind of being. Therefore I keep both words. Since in late writings Tolkien claimed that most names of the Valar were not truly Quenya, but adapted forms from the language of the Valar, that is what we probably should take Oarni to be. In references to the Oarni outside of TE their gender is not given. It may be that Oarni are of both genders.

<u> FG-C34 (Q30, TE*C, TE*D, TE*E, TY, QS77):</u> Follow immediately with:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him < TE*C and Ulmo's conches far out west call<u>ed</u> him louder and louder>, and ever the longing for the deeps of the sea grew stronger in his heart. Wherefore he built a great ship Eärámë, Sea-wing, < TE*D with white sails><u>.</u> < TE*D Ulmo beckoned to him at eve<u>.</u>> < TE*E One evening he call{s}<u>ed</u> Eärend[il] and they {go} <u>went</u> to the shore. There {is a skiff} <u>was Eärámë</u>. T[uo]r {bids} <u>bade</u> farwell to Eärend[il] and bid{s} him thrust it off***> he set sail with Idril < TY (and <u>some say</u> Voronwë <u>with them</u>)> into the sunset and the West<u>.</u> < TE E Eärend[il] hear{s}<u>d</u> a great song swelling from the sea as T[uo]r's skiff dip{s}<u>ped</u> over the world's rim. <u>Great was</u> his passion of tears upon the shore.> <u>And Tuor</u> came no more into any tale or song.

****But < QS77 in after days it was sung that> Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and joined with the Noldor whom he loved, and in after time dwelt still, or so it hath been said, ever upon his ship voyaging the seas of the Elven-lands, or resting a while in the harbours of the [Elves] of Tol Eressëa; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.<hr></blockquote>This final paragaph above should probably be in a slightly smaller font. It is found only in a footnote to Q30 but Christopher Tolkien omits part of it in QS77.

In TY final version under 525 is found:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and departed into the West with Idril (and Voronwë?) and is heard of in no tale since.<hr></blockquote>I use this Voronwë reference "(Voronwë?)" in expanded form, for Tuor prophecies in "Of the Coming of Tuor to Gondolin: "far from the Shadow your long road shall lead you, and your hope shall return to the Sea." Voronwë had originally been a companion in Eärendil's final successful voyage, but dropped out when the story was changed so that Eärendil no longer returned to Middle-earth to learn from Voronwë that Elwing had vanished, the point at which Voronwë had originally joined him (with his son Littleheart?). The phrase "in after days it was sung that" I believe to be an editorial transition by Christopher Tolkien, but something like this is necessary to mark off the more legendary account of Tuor's final fate. Every other account (BoLlT, Silmarillion tradition, annal tradition) says only that nothing more was heard of Tuor after his last voyage.

<u> On the Elessar</u>

I have not been able to find a suitable place to insert the UT story of Idril handing over the Elessar to Eärendil, mainly because the source narratives are extremely condensed for the departure of Tuor and Idril. Unless someone else sees an opening it will have to appear very early in the Eärendil story instead, with the handing over being there seen as a backflash (as it is presented in the Elessar text itself).

<u> On the Eagles</u>

The treatment of the Eagles is a problem even in FG where Thorndor and his people know nothing, it seems, of the fall of the great city less then ten leagues from them in the valley directly below their eyries. In later versions the Eagles are the guardians of Gondolin and the surrounding region and it is incomprehensible that they take no notice of an army of invading Orks, Balrogs, and dragons destroying it. (Perhaps they thought the Elves were just celebrating an abnormally roudy Gates of Summer feast?) JRRT would probably have covered this by having the Eagles take part in the battle. I don't think anything can be done by us to fix this.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanite</A> at: 7/13/01 11:25:55 pm

jallanite

07-08-2001, 07:41 AM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Suggested emendations to Fragment of an alliterative Lay of Eärendel

The poem is found in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), II Poems Early Abandoned. These are editorial changes to put the poem in suitable form to fit with late versions of the Silmarillion conceptions.

Remove line 7a: But Wade of the Helsings****wearyhearted

"Tûr" to "Tuor" in line 8.

"Tumladin" to "Tumladen" in line 12.

Line 15 from:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> of Cristhorn was cloven,****the Cleft of Eagles,<hr></blockquote>to:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> of the Cleft was cloven,****Cirith Thoronath,<hr></blockquote>"Melko" to "Morgoth" in line 19.

"Thornsir" to "Thoronhir" in line 25. Tolkien gave two replacement lines in the notes which avoid the Elvish name "Thornsir", but the second is incomplete and so these replacements cannot be used. The form Thornsir is puzzling as a contraction into one word of the FG form Thorn Sir. One would expect * Thornhir, just as Minhirath 'Between the rivers' presumably derives from min + * siriath. Also see Limhîr or Limhir 'clear / sparkling river' from lim + sîr in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), references in the index. Hence my suggested standard Sindarin form * Thoronhir. Possibly assimilation rules were different in early Gnomish.

"thirty moons" to "thwarting mazes" in line 26. In the later chronology a timing of thirty (or even thirteen) months is utterly impossible. One could use "three moons" perhaps, but the exact number of months taken to pass from the Cirith Thoronath to finding of Sirion is not stated elsewhere, and I would rather not invent a number here just for the alliteration. But in the FG account is found "wandering in the wastes" and "they journeyed long tangled in the magic of those wastes only to come again upon their own tracks". For this "thwarting mazes" does well.

"Gods" to "Powers" in line 30. Tolkien generally ceases to use of "Gods" for the "Valar" in later narrative writing except when speaking particularly of Men or when untutored Men are speaking.

".*. the Vanished Isles" to "past the Vanished Isle" in line 31. Christopher Tolkien could not interpret the word, but "past" is a good guess from sense required, and the word seems to have been a short one. The "Vanished Isles", plural, is hard to understand. The Magic Isles are not vanished but accessible, though those who disembark there fall into enchanted sleep. But Eressëa could be entitled "Vanished Isle", singular, as no longer attainable from Middle-earth because of the enchantments placed on the Sea before it during the Hiding of Valinor. Turgon's mariners who sought to reach to Valinor would have been well aware of this. The plural form might be an error by JRRT or a misreading by CT.

".*.*. the sweet breezes" to "then the sweet breezes" in line 35 as thought a possible reading by CT.

"and the dew enchanted" to "and the dew enchanted****drenched their feet." in line 37. This completion to the last half-line of the fragment is suggested by line 70 of "The Horns of Ylmir":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Where the long grass stirred beside me, and my feet were drenched with dew.<hr></blockquote>

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanite</A> at: 7/8/01 3:23:48 pm

jallanite

07-08-2001, 10:01 AM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Suggested changes to the poem "The Horns of Ylmir"

This poem is found in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), III The Quenta, Appendix 2.

Lines 13 to 66 are a poem about a violent rising tide complete in itself. The poem was called The Tides and was annotated Dec. 4 1914 and On the Cornish Coast.

Later JRRT added lines 1-12 and 67-74 to provide a frame to present the original poem as a vision seen by Tuor when he heard the horns of Ulmo in the Land of Willows. The new beginning and conclusion are tightly bound to the BoLT version of the Tuor story where Tuor first hears Ulmo's horns while standing knee-deep in the grass of the Land of Willows at twilight and senses no more the sounds, sights and odors of that land. He is transported in his mind to a rocky seacoast and sees, hears, and smells the sea. Then he awakens and finds himself still in the inland grasses among the willows.

In the new Tuor Ulmo's meeting with Tuor occured inland but right on the seacoast as a storm arose. Only after Ulmo gave Tuor his message did he blow on his horn, but not in long playing of musics but in "a single great note". Since Tuor in this version is already on just such a stormy seacoast such as he saw in his vision in the previous version, the vision called forth in the new version must be changed. Now instead Tuor sees all the waters of the world, then the depths of the Sea, and then the coast of Valinor under Oiolossë, suddenly awakening to the thunder of the storm.

The poem of course can be used without the introductory and concluding lines, making only the emendation of "roaring" to "rolling" as given by CT in this note for line 21 and the nomalizing change of Ylmir to Ulmo. This is certainly the most conservative solution.

I do however have some suggestions for possible modification of the introduction and conclusion.

The first four lines are incompatible and must be dropped.

The next six I change (following also the emendation in the notes of "'Twas" to "It was") from:<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave***
'Twas was in the Land of Willows that once Ylmir came at eve.

In the twilight by the river on a hollow thing of shell
He made immortal music, till my heart beneath his spell
Was broken in the twilight, and the meadows faded dim
To great grey waters heaving round the rocks where sea-birds swim<hr></blockquote>to:<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
<u>To sea</u> musics <u>ringing</u> magic that <u>the wind and wave can</u> weave***
It was in the <u>l</u>and of <u>Nevrast</u> that once <u>Ulmo</u> came at eve.

In the twilight <u>on</u> the <u>sea-strand through</u> a hollow thing of shell
He <u>blew one long and piercing note***</u> my heart beneath his spell
Was broken in the twilight, and the <u>storm-cold</u> faded dim
<u>On</u> great grey waters heaving round the rocks where sea-birds swim.<hr></blockquote>The conclusion I emend differently by changing most of it from past tense to present tense. Tuor now proclaims his current situation in the Land of Willows where again the sea-longing has come upon him, thus from:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then the magic drifted from me and that music loosed its bands***
Far, far-off, conches calling*** lo! I stood in the sweet lands,
And the meadows were about me where the weeping willows grew,
Where the long grass stirred beside me, and my feet were drenched with dew.
Only the reeds were rustling, but a mist lay on the streams
Like a sea-roke drawn far inland, like a shred of salt sea-dreams.
'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling*** and shall hear them till my death.<hr></blockquote>to:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then the magic drifted from me and that music loosed its bands **
Far, far-off, conches calling ** <u>now</u> I st<u>an</u>d in the sweet lands,
And the meadows <u>a</u>re about me <u>with</u> the weeping willows <u>too</u>,
Where the long grass stir<u>s</u> beside me, and my feet <u>a</u>re drenched with dew.
Only the reeds <u>a</u>re rustling, but a mist l<u>ies</u> on the streams
Like a sea-roke drawn far inland, like a shred of salt sea-dreams.
'T<u>i</u>s in the Land of Willows that I <u>hear</u> th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of <u>Ulmo</u> calling ** and shall hear them till my death.<hr></blockquote>Let others now comment and improve and suggest different changes ** or say perhaps such emendations are too great to be allowed in this project.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanite</A> at: 7/8/01 3:36:00 pm

lindil

07-08-2001, 12:50 PM

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Re: Jallanite's sugesstions

well I can see you havn't posted much in a bit.
<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

I read through everything once and am going to need a couple more readings I think, before responding in substance. If I have any thing to offer[ which after the first reading I doubt!].

One question -
You are proposing the above revisions as a base text w/ possible stylistic revisions to follow?

One general comment. I favor breaking off the FoG at Nan - Tasarinien and puttting everything re: the havens into the final chapter to give it a bit more length as the last chapter and the ruin of doriath will be disproportionately short.

awesome work Jallanite-

am I right in suspecting you have <u>no</u> children? <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

--lindil

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/8/01 6:37:06 pm

jallanite

07-08-2001, 03:50 PM

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Re: Jallanite's sugestions - His response

As to exact assignment of chapters, I think that awaits a look at the finished materials to see how things flow. For now this is the "Fall of Gondolin", an independent work, and includes as an epilogue narrative up to the departure of Tuor and Idril.

I was not planning to suggest any stylistic changes, merely indicating that changing text for stylistic reasons would be facing different issues altogether than what I was doing: making a list of possible emendations and mergings of source texts to produce a base document. If I was merging two texts of approximately equal size in very different styles I would probably have had to face that problem.

The only thing I might have found bothersome stylistically in combining texts was the issue of capitalization: when to use "north" and when to use "North", when to use "sea" and when to use "Sea" for example. I ignored the issue and simply followed the document I was using as a source. Seeing if general rules can be ascertained from JRRT's useage might be worth trying.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanite</A> at: 7/8/01 8:34:10 pm

lindil

07-09-2001, 08:18 AM

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Re: Jallanite's sugestions - lindil's response

Jallanite: "I was not planning to suggest any stylistic changes, merely indicating that changing text for stylistic reasons
would be facing different issues altogether than what I
was doing: making a list of possible emendations and
mergings of source texts to produce a base document."

lindil:A very good idea and one I had not thought of.

A couple of things 1> we seem to be short handed these days and as there has not been much response to my q's [orks, how to proceed, please check in, etc.] whether from folks being annoyed confused or preoccupied I think gpoing ahead w/ what you are working on is the best option . I will attempt some stylistic editing by pasting your versions into a new copy of FoG [the later sections] in the TftE forum. Will try and read over your work again and to get to work on stylistic editing tonight but we shall see...

</p>

Aiwendil

07-10-2001, 09:00 AM

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Re: A project ? - revising the Fall of Gondolin

Overall, I agree with most of what you've done, jallanite. Good work. A few notes:

C01 - Migth we also consider making this into one balrog instead of deleting them entirely?

C09 - My understanding of CRT's note in 'Wanderings' is that he believes that the story of the Fire-drake waiting for them outside was abandoned, and replaced with a story where the Way of Escape somehow collapsed. I'm not sure if I agree with this, but we will have to agree with 'Wanderings'. Somehow the Way of Escape must be closed. But I don't see any indication that NO ONE tried to use the Way of Escape.

C10 - I think I'm missing something here. Why do we need to get rid of 'the plain was full of mists'?

C11 - I wonder if this addition is really necessary. I think it makes the prose slightly more awkward, though it's really pretty trivial.

C18 - If the fall of Gondolin occurred at midsummer, then a year and a half could pass before the arrival at Sirion. I think that gives us room to keep the year of wandering and the arrival at Nan-tathren the following summer.

C23 - I like this idea a lot, but I don't know if it's appropriate for this project. I suppose this is a matter for some consideration, and it bears on the question of our ultimate objective.

C25 - Same as above; though we know that the song should be here, I don't know if we should take the liberty of altering it.

C31 - I think this would be the best place to add the Elfstone. At any rate, it should be mentioned along with the Silmaril as a cause of prosperity.

C33 - Are the Mermaids really appropriate? I think this is one element we can be virtually certain would be removed.

C34 - This is good, if we assume that there are stylistic changes still to be made. Otherwise, I think the choppy, outline-style is inappropriate, and I'd suggest relying more on Q30 and QS77.

On the Eagles: I don't think it's necessary to change the role of the Eagles. True, they were dedicated to the protection of Gondolin; but I think this had more to do with killing the occasional Orc that came near it than with engaging in a full-scale battle. They didn't help in any other battle except the War of Wrath.

I agree with most of your changes to the alliterative fragment of Earendil and to the Horns of Ulmo; I personally like the idea of their being included, but I'm not sure if it's within the scope of the project.

On stylistic changes: I really think these are necessary. At the very least, we should eliminate the present tense that occasionally appears in the Lost Tales.

</p>

jallanite

07-10-2001, 09:24 PM

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Re: Comments on Comments

Re your comments, Aiwendil:

C01 My guiding principle was and is to get rid of particular masses of Balrogs everywhere and anywhere by any method. Just dropping the references is easiest (which may not mean best!) If there are too few when all is done, then bring some (or all?) back. I actually don't think we need to drop any. The late reference to seven can be considered another unworkable proposed change. But I do think JRRT did let the Balrogs get away from him. He writes "... for ere that day never had any of the Balrogs been slain by the hand of Elves or Men", and then slaughters them like the Orks they command. Not much hope of keeping them down to seven even with easy omissions, or actually to six since one is for some reason out on the northern marches waiting for Glorfindel to kill him.
Had that note about the seven never appeared, would we care? Certainly these beings are mostly not of the power of Durin's Bane, but must all Balrogs be alike in power?
Still, my policy will be extreme in the first draft, eliminating as much as possible of any suggestions of multitudes

C09 I find no reference anywhere to a collapse of the Way of Escape, merely: "the Dry Gate was blocked and the arched gate was buried." CT states in note 28 to "Wanderings" that his dropping the Way of Escape was based on this single and singular statement. I can't find any other passage bearing on the issue. CT's invention of a purposeful closing by Turgon makes good sense in the context. But you are right that an attempt to use the Way might have been made, if it was still openable. So we have to decide, with no evidence either way that I can see, *Sigh!* whether it was permanently closed, perhaps by forced collapse of the tunnel, or whether Turgon had only closed the outside wall, but left it able to be broken open from inside again if there was need or he wished the gate to exist again.
Possibly the principle of not rejecting anything that JRRT wrote that is not contradicted by his own writing applies here. He relates that the gate was closed in one place, but that the Way of Escape was used in another, and there is no real contradiction if the Way was reasonably easy to re-open from the inside: say a day's work with pickaxes and shovels for a large tast force and removal of a binding spell? "We made it, we're out! My, what big teeth the exit has!"

C10 This is a bit complex. My logic was that in recasting the FB sentence in Q30 JRRT replaced FG "the plain was full of mists" with Q30 "fell upon the vale in mournful mists" and FG "and this perchance had to do with the doom of the fountain of the king" is replaced by Q30 "The fume of the burning, and the steam of the fair fountains of Gondolin withering in the flame of the dragons of the North". The Q30 sentence thus replaces the original with the two elements reversed, but I felt it reasonable and in accord with the principles to re-insert into the the Q30 sentence the missing informaton that this had never happened before, as there's nothing to indicate that information was dropped for any reason other than general compression. Q30 is certainly better here as well as being later: smoke from burning would have been contributing to the "mist" and there is no need of a "perchance" to relate the true mist to the turning of the fountain(s) to steam. We can re-add the somewhat redundant "the plain was full of mists" alongside its replacement. It really doesn't matter.

C11 The addition of "many" twice is only necessary as a change in wording by JRRT in the later Q30 version. I was also going to change "stricken" to "wounded" following the Q30 corresponding sentence, and then noticed that "wounded" does occur three sentences later in FG material that can still be considered part of the material summarized by the Q30 sentence, and so accepted this later use of "wounded" to equal the word "wounded" in Q30. Pedantic and somewhat silly and artificial considerations! Yet for each Q30 sentence I had to decide to what extent it was a summary of FG and to what extent original addition, and whether different wording was a result of it being a summary or a true later change. That's the way the game has to be played. The decisions must be made. Fortunately most of them don't matter: any mixture of wording from the two sources reads equally well.

C18 I made an unwarranted assumption here! FG states: "But they who arose from the grasses of the Land of willows in years after and fared away to sea, <u>when spring set celandine in the meads</u> and they had held sad festival in memorial of Glorfindel, ..." I used this to date to the spring the Q30 "feast in memory of Gondolin" and subsequent removal to the Sea. All annals which mention the fall of Gondolin place the arrival of Tuor and the fugitives at the mouth of Sirion in the following year. So either the FG timing of over a year for the wandering in the mountains or the FG spring dating for the departure from the Land of Willows must be removed. Or both?
I see nothing to push definitely one way or the other. I suspect that one reason JRRT did have the fugutives escape to the north rather than the south was that a northern route led them into wilder territory on the edge of Dorthonion which Morgoth held. That might support the year of wandering. But that still seems a large space of time to wander in, particular if they are in part being guided by Eagles. *Sigh!* Even eight months of wandering seems a lot, but that would still get them to Nan-tathren in plenty of time to leave again in the spring. Aesthetically I like the note about the spring, so will leave that for now as there is no other logic I can see to pull one way or the other otherwise.

C23 The words in the lay "all this have others****in ancient stories / and songs unfolded,****but say I further" are a problem in my suggested setting at the festival. If used here, as a sample of festival song, then the final lines, 32-38, should be dropped. Another possiblity is to place it just after the arrival in Nan-tathren (where the fragment ends) without particular explanation. It just appear as a poetic fragment giving a retrospective summary of the parts of the tale previously related. If we break up the Fall into chapters, it could start one of them. These all just suggestions. It should be fitted in somewhere I feel.

C25 Agreed (sadly) on the daring emendations if others think them too bold. We may have to limit Tuor's recitation to the core poem which presents no problems and drop introduction or conclusion or both. But maybe others can work from what I've started or try some different tack.

C31 You are right! The Elessar has to be mentioned here! But I just can't get any full account to fit here without rewriting or paraphrasing. I've now edited my post to at least mention it at this point, with the assumption that something about it will be fitted in earlier, and of course later. Again, if someone else sees a way, please contribute.

C33 On mermaids, anything written by Tolkien is not to be disregarded unless contradicted by later ideas or in error, etc. I don't know that he did drop them. The late Eärendil information is so frustratingly sketchy, almost worse than the early material. Any scrap of information is important. And they appear in four separate notes. I don't imagine Tolkien was talking about fish-tailed women if that is what bothers. I see something along the lines of the Nereids and Okeanids of Greek myth. But who knows?

C34 Trying to get the other stuff into Q30 was the problem. On any of this mixed material, you or anyone are welcome rework it to read better and still include all the material. With multiple source passages I often stopped at the point, tired but happy, where I had finally managed to fit all the material in somewhere.

The historical present is a strange thing. People fall into it automatically when actually telling a story: "So I went to the store. And as I'm going in the door, I see this woman, and she looks at me funny. So I say 'Hi' to her. And then she says 'Hi' to me". But this natural English (and medieval French) style of narrative is drummed out of peoples' heads as improper grammar by English teachers who don't know any better, influenced by grammarians of three hundred years ago who thought Latin grammar was the model for every language, especially for barbaric non-Romance languages, and persuaded writers to drop the historical present in narrative writing as non-Latin, and so wrong. But medieval French narrative is actually written that way, jumping delightfully from vivid present tense, to past tense for a narrative bridge, and then back to the present again. And much late medieval English prose follows suit. But produce samples of improvements to Tolkien's writing if you wish.

</p>

lindil

07-10-2001, 11:41 PM

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Re: Comments on Comments

unfortunately my brain is not up to the task at hand of reviewing both J and A'a work. I will mention a thought that has occured a few times to me lately.

what does anyone think of using [some of] Bilbo's cheeky Earendil poem to fill in gaps of Earendil's voyage. It could be explained [poorly but truthfully] as the only source for the journeys of E. which have come down to us.

goodnight

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Aiwendil

07-11-2001, 11:54 AM

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Re: Comments on Comments

C01: I agree; we'll all need to come to some kind of a better consensus on the balrog issue. Personally, I also would rather ignore the note on '7'.

C09: My mistake; a quick glance at WotJ was apparently not sufficient review for me. Anyway, my inclination would be, as you said, to go with a closing of the Way and possible reopening from inside, as that's the only reading where BoLT and WotJ can be made to agree.

C10: Ah. Looks good, I just wasn't sure at first what the idea was.

C18: This is tricky. We have, it seems, a simple choice:
1. compress the year of wandering, or 2. change the season of the journey to Sirion. I'd rather not change both, though others may differ. Each has points in its favor:

1. a. If we compress the wandering, we make the arrival at Sirion the next year more plausible, because otherwise we have only at most a few months for them to dwell in Nan-tathren and go to the havens; b. We keep the aesthetic point of their leaving in spring.

2. a. There's nothing specific in later writings that denies a year of wandering; I don't think that the TY material can be considered to do this; b. the passage from which comes the mention of spring is already contradicted by the 'in years after', making me perhaps a little more inclined to cut this.

It's a small but difficult issue, and I think it requires a vote.

C23: I think perhaps if we use it, it would be better not used as a festival song. My reasoning: the poem itself is basically canon, 'true' within the legendarium; it therefore involves no conjecture, no matter of decision (with regard to the canon) on our part to include it. However, it is not a known fact that exactly such a song was sung at the festival; that would be mere speculation on our part, and therefore inadvisable.

C25: It's not that I dislike your changes; it's merely that I'm not sure if we should make changes at all. I would rather like to include as much of the poem as possible, as emended.

C31: Perhaps I'll take a closer look at this later; for now, I'm busy enough already, and I'm also trying to work on some kind of transition between UT and FG.

C33: I suppose you're right, on principle. He never contradicted them later, so they should be kept. However, I really do get the feeling that they were dropped, not merely omitted.

C34: I think we should decide soon whether style changes are permitted. If so, this is fine. If not, we'll either have to simply exclude certain things because we can't fit them in grammatically, or we'll have a very uneven finished product.

Re: the historical present: I'm not debating it's validity; but all traces of it were excised in the later Silmarillions. I think it's a little like the frequent use of 'Gods' to describe the Valar: we should eliminate it based on its omission in later writings. I don't think it'll be hard; all we need do is change present to past.

Lindil: I think that whatever we do with Earendil it's going to be a problem. There will simply be a huge gap in style between Tuor and Earendil; that's unavoidable without a massive creative rewrite. Same thing for the Ruin of Doriath between the Wanderings of Hurin and the Quenta. I think trying to incorporate Bilbo's song might end up being more trouble than it's worth, and in any case it won't solve the problem.

</p>

lindil

07-12-2001, 07:08 AM

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Re: Comments on Comments

FG-C01 (FG): B!

Jallanite: Still, my policy will be extreme in the first draft,
eliminating as much as possible of any suggestions of
multitudes

lindil: ok - it is def. a point to revisited.I now see that you are right in supposing that 7 is not workable [w/ the references in the battles of beleriand and what remained in the QS30 .

FG-C02 lindil: yea

FG-C03 - 4 lindil: yea

FG-C05 (FG): There is no mention in any text later
than FG ...
lindil: I find the uttering and remembering of the prophecy chilling, it shows how deep pride and blindness can go [as if Ulmo'es warning were not enough. Just because it does not show up later I see no reason to drop it. Does it conflict?

FG-C06 (FG): Rewording:

Quote:

Gling[a]l was {withered} melted to the
stock and B[elthi]l was blackened utterly,
and the king's tower was beset.
lindil: how about destroyed or burnt to the stock . Melted to the stock seems awkward. but agreed in obvious need to emmend.

FG-C07 (FG, Q30):
lindil: yea
FG-C08 (FG): D!

Quote:

Fire-drakes are about it and monsters {of
iron} fare in and out of its gates, and great
is the sack of the Balrogs and Or[k]s.
lindil: retaining monsters is a little odd,JRRT does not use it at all to my recollection as a collective name for evil creatures in the later writings I would go w/ ' an evil horde' or 'trolls and orcs fare in ...'

FG-C09 lindil: I agree w/ Aiwendil that the whole way of escape issue will prob need a poll/vote.

FG-C10 (FG, Q30): Rewording:
aiwendil:C10: Ah. Looks good, I just wasn't sure at first what the idea
was.
lindil : I am still not sure what did not work in the original.

FG-C11 (FG, Q30):
lindil : yea

FG-C12 (FG, Q30): lindil: yea

FG-C13 see above

FG-C14 (FG):. Omit here: lindil yea , work in earlier as per suggestion

FG-C15 (FG, Q30): Rewording:

lindil: yea

FG-C16 (FG, Q30): lindil:yea

FG-C17 (FG):lindil: yea

FG-C18 I favor altering as necessary to keep the arrival in spring as it seems important as a healing time of year after a long wandering.

FG-C19 (FG): see above

FG-C20 (FG): lindil : yea
FG-C21 (FG, Q30): lindil : yea
FG-C22 (FG, Q30): lindil : yea

FG-C23 (FG, Q30): lindil : yea

FG-C24 (Q30):lindil : yea
FG-C26 (FG, Q30): Rewording:

Quote:

The voice of Ulmo's conches drew the heart
of Tuor{,} that his sea-longing returned
with a thirst the deeper for years of
stifling{;}, <in his heart and in his son's.
Wherefore {all that host} <the most part
of the people> arose at his bidding, and
{got them} <they removed> down Sirion to
the Sea.
lindil : can we not keep 'all that host'? I would favor 'journeyed' instead of 'removed'

FG-C27 (FG, Q30): lindil: I need to look at this one more
...

FG-C28 (FG): Omission of anachronistic listing of cities
as could not exist as part of the original tale, except as
a very late marginal note:

true - but if we are dealing w/ much material that came from Aelfwine via Pegolodh and Rumil via eressea and JRRT never seemed to abandon the idea then there is room for eriol's comments as part of what has come to us.
although I think JRRT would have dropped it as he seemed to drop nearly all references to to later historical ages , once he was past the 'kids fairy-tale' phase of the Hobbit and early FotR. Amazons [for the female haladin warriors] in the Tale of the Druedain [UT] is an exception that comes to mind.

FG-C29 (FG, Q30, TE*N(i)): I already stated my preference for less Gondolin and more earendil as far as deciding where to put the transitionary material, but this can be put off till the rest of the tale is in order. and then maybe we will have a better sense of where the 'natural ' divisions are.

FG-C30 (PG, SF, QS77):
Quote:

Ereinion Gil-galad son of Orodreth, who had
escaped the fall of Nargothrond and dwelt
now at Sirion's Mouth, was named High
King of the Noldor there.

lindil yea to the above. I would save the later material for the war of the last alliance. as we are never given a scene of Gil-Galad fighting in the first age.I like very much the idea of incorporating the Shibboleth material for the descriptions of the Noldorin prince, just think this one would work better later.
He was styled
Gil-galad, Star of Radiance, because his
helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with
silver and set with a device of white stars,
shone from afar like a star in sunlight or
mooonlight and could be seen by Elvish
eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a
height.

FG-C31 (Q30, AB 2, Elessar, QS77): lindil: I need to read up on this more.

FG-C32 (Q30): In the pleading of Ulmo there are
stylistic differences and certain omissions from the Q30
version to the QS77 version, probably changes made
by Christopher Tolkien himself for aesthetic reasons,
and to be ignored unless someone can find other
sources. Stick to Q30 here.
lindil : I will have to read the section in ques. butin general I am not against CRT's stylistic edit's as they often seem to be of a high-quality.I am concerned when he edit's to omit things like Wandering of Hurin and details of the Narn and. such

as far as I can go now. I apologize if i have not cross-referenced w/ the later comments sufficiently.

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Aiwendil

07-12-2001, 08:59 AM

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Re: Comments on Comments

<<lindil: I find the uttering and remembering of the prophecy chilling, it shows how deep pride and blindness can go [as if Ulmo'es warning were not enough. Just because it does not show up later I see no reason to drop it. Does it conflict?>>

I think as we have the exact words of the prophecy in AAm and LQ, we must accept those as the canonical exact words. Anyway, I always found the idea rather silly: why would you name a city Gondolin when the words 'Great is the fall of Gondolin' are etched in your mind?

<<Fire-drakes are about it and monsters {of
iron} fare in and out of its gates, and great
is the sack of the Balrogs and Or[k]s.
lindil: retaining monsters is a little odd,JRRT does not use it at all to my recollection as a collective name for evil creatures in the later writings I would go w/ ' an evil horde' or 'trolls and orcs fare in ...'>>

I don't see a problem with the word 'monsters', per se; actually I rather like it. It could be taken to refer to trolls, orcs, dragons, or whatever. Also, as the meaning here is clearly NOT simply 'orcs' or 'trolls', I don't think it should be replaced with a specific reference.

</p>

jallanite

07-13-2001, 10:41 PM

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Re: Comments -- Comments getting less at last

I have made editorial changes in my original post on the closing part of the "Fall of Gondolin" in light of comments made. I think it may be better for shorter comments to appear in that post rather than scattered about. I also comment here on some of the remarks and note where I have made changes in the original postings. If I don't comment it is because I am more or less in agreement, as least for today.

C05**I agree, Lindil, on the literary effect of Turgon shouting "Great is the Fall of Gondolin" and added below a possible way of saving it. Probably too fan fictional.

C06**Glingal, the tree of gold is "{withered} <melted> to the stock". Since the tree is a metal image, I thought "melted" to be the best word. "Destroyed" would do per Lindil's suggestion if others find "melted" awkward. I don't see the problem myself. I don't think "burnt" works with gold metal at all. Continue discussion?

C08**On replacing "monsters" with "Orcs and trolls": I'm not sure Tolkien uses "drake" either, or a number of other words outside of FG. But no other story deals with dragons of any kind to nearly this extent so we should expect find more dragon synonyms here. We really can't introduce "trolls". I personally see no problem with "monsters". If replaced with anything it should be "dragons" or "serpents" since that is what JRRT means by the word here and we have no reason or right to change that

C10**On mist in the valley. The original worked alright, but Q30 contains the same material rewritten in full, and so takes priority, and it also shows signs of careful and literary rewriting, e.g. "mounful mists". I see I missed some angle brackets here, and have added them. That was probably confusing things.

C20**On the wording of the "removal" from Nan-tathren. FG has "all that host" while the later Q30 has "the most part of the people", so that must take priority. JRRT has both changed the phrasing and decided that not all the people left Nan-tathren to follow Huor to Sirion. This last makes good sense, considering the beauty of Nan-tathren as described. As to "journeyed" for "removed", since JRRT uses "removed" we should keep it. The word "journeyed" does not occur here at all.
We should use JRRT's own writing as much as possible, not a paraphrase of it.
JRRT seems to have a purposely Biblical touch to it here as in KJV Numbers 33:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 6*And they departed from Succoth, and pitched in Etham, which is in the edge of the wilderness. 7*And they removed from Etham, and turned again unto Pihahiroth, which is before Baalzephon: and they pitched before Migdol. 8*And they departed from before Pihahiroth, and passed through the midst of the sea into the wilderness, and went three days'journey in the wilderness of Etham, and pitched in Marah. 9*And they removed from Marah, and came unto Elim: and in Elim were twelve fountains of water, and threescore and ten palm trees; and they pitched there. 10*And they removed from Elim, and encamped by the Red sea. 11*And they removed from the Red sea, and encamped in the wilderness of Sin. 12*And they took their journey out of the wilderness of Sin, and encamped in Dophkah. 13*And they departed from Dophkah, and encamped in Alush. 14*And they removed from Alush, and encamped at Rephidim, where was no water for the people to drink.<hr></blockquote> and so forth.

C22**I have changed the positioning of the mention of springtime from C27 to C22 and explained it in those entries.

C23**I have ommitted here the song fragment, moving its position to a new entry C21.1 with comments. This is tentative only of course.

C28**On the anachronistic cities: I post below the research I've done on the possibility of including Ælfwine and my conclusions. In any case, should a later marginal note be included in the main text, regardless of its source?

C29**On when the tale ends: Aiwendil created his breakdown of the tale to cover all the material in the Q77 "Fall of Gondolin" so might as well keep this for now, considering the material not covered by FG as a sort of epilogue. As Lindil says, we will see what emerges as to where it is best to break.

C30**The explanation of a name should probably be inserted usually when the person who bears it first appears, or first appears prominently. I would imagine in the Nargothrond material Ereinion would be simply mentioned by name, and probably without the epithet Gil-galad, as he plays no part in the tale as told. So this is really his first appearance on stage, though a very short one!
This account of Gil-galad's name and armor could be used again in the Second Age material, probably when he first appears there rather than late in the War of the Last Alliance. It's such a magnificent introduction!
I have removed from C30 the word "high" before "king" as I think this may be invalid CT or Guy Kay supposition. It doesn't occur in a source that I can find before Second Age material, and I doubt that anyone would want to claim the title of "High King" at this time in the First Age?

C34 Departure of Tuor: Haven't gotten around to trying stylistic changes on this. Anyone else is welcome to do so. Possibly a little juggling of personal names and pronouns and some reweaving with a few ands and thens may fix it up.

Again on the historical present ... yes, I don't see it at all in the later writings, but have only done a very cursory search. Possibly this might justify omitting it in BoLT material. But the problem I see with any stylistic changes is what is most annoying to one person is likely to be particular liked by another, especially in the matter if archaisms.

The Prophecy of the Fall of Gondolin

"Great is the fall of Gondolin!", and men shudder.

In BoLT*1 the story of the Prophecy of the North is given, ending with:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and he foretold to them many of the evil adventures that after came to them, warning them against Melko, and at last he said: 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', and none there understood for Turondo son of Nólemë was not yet upon Earth.<hr></blockquote>Lindil mentions the powerful effect of Turgon's cry here and wishes to retain it.

In no later account is there any mention of a prophecy of the fall of Gondolin in either the giving of the Prophecy of the North or the story of the fall of Gondolin. The tale of the prophecy in QS77 only relates:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Much it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them;<hr></blockquote> but no actual words of this prophecy are given at all. Then follows the curse laid on the Noldor which Tolkien added to the prophecy, and that is given in full.

Is the omission of the mention of Gondolin here purposeful, or the result of compression? The difficulty is to understand how Turgon and his people could have named his city Gondolin if this prophecy was well known. Normally in tales of the coming of a prophecied doom something happens, then someone recalls an obscure prophecy, and then for the first time the dread meaning of the prophecy is understood.
This could be brought in here allowing a little fan fiction.

I will postulate that the prophecy, spoken in Quenya, actually ended with "Great is the fall of the hidden rock!" Tolkien does tell us in "The Later Quenta Silmarillion", 12, that Turgon really named his city in Quenya as Ondolindë 'Singing Stone' (a metaphor for carved stone), but this was translated into Sindarin as Gondolin, and then interpreted by a kind of pun as Gond dolen 'Hidden Rock'.

So during the sack, Turgon remembers suddenly the Quenya words of the prophecy and calls out in Sindarin, "Great is the fall of Gondolin!" Those who hear him now understand: their city is the hidden rock of the Prophecy of the North!

Let me try this:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then said the king: [']Great is the fall of Gondolin['], and men shuddered, for such were the words of {Amnon the prophet of old} [the Prophecy of the North], <u>saying:</u> < BoLT 1 'Great is the fall of the <u>hidden rock</u>!">; but Tuor speaking wildly ...<hr></blockquote>Too creative to be allowed? Can anyone come up with anything better?

Ælfwine

Lindil suggests we might keep Ælfwine who at least in the 1950's in a large number of texts was still the medium through which Elvish tradition was preserved for Tolkien to translate. Can we keep Ælfwine?

In the second edition to LR (1966) a "Note on Shire Records" was inserted following the Prologue, in which it was stated of the Red Book of Westmarch:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But annexed to it and preserved with it, probably in a single red case, were three large volumes, bound in red leather, that Bilbo gave him as a parting gift.<hr></blockquote>Somewhat later:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But the chief importance of Findegil's copy is that it alone contains the whole of Bilbo's 'Translations from the Elvish'. These three volumes were found to be a work of great skill and learning in which, between 1403 and 1418, he had used all the sources available to him in Rivendell, both living and written. But since they were little used by Frodo, being almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days, no more is said of them here.<hr></blockquote>It has been largely assumed that this was now JRRT's purported source for The Silmarillion and any other tales of Elvish or Mannish tradition of the first Three Ages he wished to present.

In The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), near the end of chapter I, "The Prologue", CT notes:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****The Note on the Shire Records entered in the Second Edition. In one of his copies of the First Edition my father noted: 'Here should be inserted Note on the Shire Records'; but he wrote against this later: 'I have decided against this. It belongs to Preface to The Silmarillion.'<hr></blockquote>That JRRT would have placed this as part of the front matter to The Silmarillion is proof that the volumes annexed to the Red Book are indeed now put forward by him as the major source, and probably the sole source, of the tales of The Silmarillion. I believe no trace of Ælfwine can be found in any document later than the 1950's.

Conclusion: Ælfwine in Tol Eressëa has been discarded, being replaced by Bilbo Baggins in Rivendell.

One could keep Ælfwine for certain particular Elvish traditions I suppose, but which ones? It would be rather a comedown if the tale of his coming to Eressëa is told, and then all that follows are a few technical dialogues with that garulous bore Pengolodh.

We could postulate that Sam brought a copy of the Red Book, including the Elvish translations, to Tol Eressëa, and that Ælfwine copied them all there, and so the Red Book comes through Ælfwine. I think this improbable.

At most Æflwine is a sailor of whom a tale is told that he reached the Lonely Island and walked and talked with Elves.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanite</A> at: 7/14/01 12:46:46 am

jallanite

07-14-2001, 07:12 AM

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Re: Comments -- Scattered notes on Tuor and Idril's fate.

This is probably all to be rejected, at least for including any of it in the account of Tuor's departure.

Tuor for a time returned via Ilbranteloth (= Cirith Ninniach) to his old haunts by Asgon (= Lake Mithrim) per TE*N(vi):<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'Tuor has sailed back to Falasquil and so back up Ilbranteloth to Asgon where he sits playing on his lonely harp on the islanded rock.'*** This is marked with a query and an 'X' implying rejection of the idea.<hr></blockquote>Idril departs after Tuor in early versions. A suggested fate for her in TE*C:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Littleheart's gong awakens the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl.^6

6**Struck out here: 'The sleeper is Idril but he does not know.'<hr></blockquote>Eärendil in Mandos per TE*C:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tuor is gone to Valinor and nought is known of Idril or of Elwing.<hr></blockquote>Tuor and Idril seemingly identified with the planet Mercury (similar to last mention of Elwing in QS77) per TE*C:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tuor and Idril some say sail now in Swanwing and may be seen going swift down the wind at dawn and dusk.<hr></blockquote>Tuor dwells with Ulmo in TE*N(xviii):<blockquote>Quote:<hr> When Eärendel comes to Mandos he finds that Tuor is ' not in Valinor, or Erumáni, and neither Elves nor Ainu know where he is. (He is with Ulmo.)'<hr></blockquote>

</p>

lindil

07-14-2001, 12:42 PM

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Re: Comments -- Scattered notes on Tuor and Idril's fate.

"This is probably all to be rejected, at least for including any of
it in the account of Tuor's departure."
I think you are right.

<a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000000e Creation of a Revised Silmarillion</a>
Lindil's Tolkien/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>,
http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>.
'In the begining was the Word. And the Word was with God.And the Word is God'. </p>

Aiwendil

07-23-2001, 04:45 PM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

<u>The Transition</u>

Here I assume that we will follow the later 'Tuor' in Unfinished Tales as far as it goes; I thus start with the transition immediately following the last line of this text, "Then Ecthelion said at last: 'Now no further proof is needed; and even the name he claims as son of Huor matters less than this clear truth, that he comes from Ulmo himself.'"

I refer to this text as Tuor; as usual, FG refers to the Lost Tales version, Q30 refers to the Quenta Noldorinwa, and QS77 refers to the published Silmarillion. In addition, TO refers to the brief notes given in note 59 to to the later Tuor in UT.

I will go through FG paragraph by paragraph beginning from my suggested transition point, the paragraph beginning "Then said Tuor: 'What be those names?'"

I follow jallanite's practice of using the following symbols:
[ ] Normalized, usually used for proper names indicating they are here in final form, not as in original text. Eg. "[Huor]" probably represents an original "Peleg", "[nor]thward", represents original "southward", and "[']" represents original """.
< > Material inserted from secondary source. If more than one secondary source occurs in the passage then a code appears after the opening angle-bracket, eg. "< QS77 ".
{ } Material to be deleted.
Underlined Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

To these I add:
/ / Material altered in accordance with our principle 6c; mostly used for expansion of outlines. In this case, I will show the deletion of the original as well; for example: {Coming thither of Elwing} = /Elwing came thither/.

I've numbered the paragraphs for ease of discussion; after each one I give notes.

P.1: {Then said Tuor: "What be those names?"}< TO Tuor asked the name of the city, [a]nd {the chief of the Guard}[Elemmakil] made answer: [']'Tis said and 'tis sung: "Gondobar am I called and Gondo[lodrim]bar, City of Stone and City of the Dwellers in Stone; Gondolin the Stone of Song and [?] am I named, the Tower of Guard, [Nome] Thuri{o}n or the Secret Place, for I am hidden from the eyes of [Morgoth]; but they who love me most greatly call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even Loth the flower that blooms [in] the [valley]." Yet,' said he, 'in our daily speech we speak and we name it mostly Gondolin.' Then said Voronwë: 'Bring us thither, for we fain would enter,' and Tuor said that his heart desired much to tread the ways of that fair city.

The 'chief of the Guard' seems to me to refer to him who was later named Elemmakil, though it might also be Ecthelion.

See the following post for discussion of the names of Gondolin.

P.2: < QS77 At the bidding of Ecthelion trumpets were blown on the towers of the great gate, and they echoed in the hills; and far off but clear there came a sound of answering trumpets blown upon the white walls of the city, flushed with the rose of dawn upon the plain. Then < TO [h]orses were brought {(a grey horse for Tuor)} = /, one white for Voronwë and one grey for Tuor;/> and said {the chief of the guard} [Ecthelion] that they themselves must abide here, for there were yet many days of their moon of watch to pass, but that Voronwë and Tuor might pass on to Gondolin; and moreover that they would need thereto no guide, for [']Lo, it stands fair to see and very clear, and its towers prick the heavens above the Hill of Watch in the midmost plain.['] Then Tuor and his companion fared over the plain that was of a marvellous level, broken but here and there by boulders round and smooth which lay amid a sward, or by pools in rocky beds. Many fair pathways lay across that plain, and they came after a day's light march to the foot of the Hill of Watch (which is in the tongue of the Nold[or] Amon Gwareth). Then did they begin to ascend the winding stairways which climbed up to the city gate; nor might any one reach that city save on foot and espied from the walls. As the westward gate was golden in the last sunlight did they come to the long stair's head, and many eyes gazed upon them from the battlements and towers.

I may have taken too much liberty in adding that Voronwe's horse was white, but I can't think of any other reasonable way to introduce the fact that Tuor's horse was grey; all other horses used by the Eldar seem to be white. We might simply use: . . . horses were brought, a grey horse for Tuor . . .; I don't know if that's really awkward or not.

P.3: But Tuor looked upon the walls of stone, and the uplifted towers, upon the glistening pinnacles of the town, and he looked upon the stairs of stone and marble < TO up to its high platform and its great gate>, bordered by slender balustrades and cooled by the leap of threadlike waterfalls seeking the plain from the fountains of Amon Gwareth, and he fared as one in some dream of the [Valar], for he deemed not such things were seen by men in the visions of their sleep, so great was his amaze at the glory of Gondolin.

P. 4: Even so came they to the gates, Tuor in wonder and Voronwë in great joy that daring much he had brought Tuor hither in the will of Ulmo {and he had himself thrown off the yoke of Melko for ever. Though he hated him no wise less, no longer did he dread that Evil One with a binding terror (and of a sooth that spell which Melko held over the Noldoli was one of bottomless dread, so that he seemed ever nigh them even were they far from the Hells of Iron, and their hearts quaked and they fled not even when they could; and to this Melko trusted often).}

In the later story Voronwe was not captured by Morgoth. This paragraph, reduced as it is, should probably be appended to P.3.

P. 5: Now is there a sally from the gates of Gondolin and a throng comes about these twain in wonder, rejoicing that {yet another of the Noldoli has fled hither from Melko} Voronwë had returned, and marvelling at the stature and gaunt limbs of Tuor, his heavy spear barbed with fish bone and his great harp. Rugged was his aspect, and his locks were unkempt, and he was clad in the skin of bears. {'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth, yet was Tuor taller than any that stood there. Indeed the Gondothlim were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for Melko, but small were they and slender and very lithe. They were swift of foot and surpassing fair; sweet and sad were their mouths, and their eyes had ever a joy within quivering to tears; for in those times the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not. But fate and unconquerable eagerness after knowledge had driven them into far places, and now were they hemmed by Melko and must make their abiding as fair as they might by labour and by love.}

Passage on the relative stature of Elves and Men delted for obvious reasons.

P. 6: {How it came ever that among Men the Noldoli have been confused with the Orcs who are Melko's goblins, I know not, unless it be that certain of the Noldoli were twisted to the evil of Melko and mingled among these Orcs, for all that race were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed; foul their faces which smiled not, but their laugh that of the clash of metal, and to nothing were they more fain than to aid in the basest of the purposes of Melko. The greatest hatred was between them and the Noldoli, who named them Glamhoth, or folk of dreadful hate.}

There is no suggestion in later writings of Elves being confused with Orcs.

P. 7: Behold, the armed guardians of the gate pressed back the thronging folk that gathered about the wanderers, and one among them spake saying: [']This is a city of watch and ward, Gondolin on Amon Gwareth, where all may be free who are of true heart, but none may be free to enter unknown. Tell me then your names.' But Voronwë named himself {Bronweg of the Gnomes}, come hither by the will of Ulmo as guide to this son of Men; and Tuor said: 'I am Tuor son of [Huor] son of [Galdor] of the house of [Hador] of the sons of the Men of the North who liver far hence, and I fare hither by the will of Ulmo of the Outer Oceans.'

I think that even if we decide to retain the 'house of the Swan' as referring to Annael, we should use 'the house of Hador' here, since he has just named his father and grandfather.

P. 8: Then all who listened grew silent, and his deep and rolling voice held them in amaze, for their own voices were fair as the plash of fountains. Then a saying arose among them: 'Lead him before the king.'
* * * *
P. 9: Then did the throng return within the gates and the wanderers with them, and Tuor saw they were of iron and of great height and strength. Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and coursts amid gardens of bright flowers and < TO mounds of mallorns, birches, and evergreen trees> were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvellously rose to the heaven. Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the [K]ing's {palace} < TO house>, and the tower thereof < TO on a pillared arcade> was the loftiest in the city, < TO {and the banner of Fingolfin}= /and above it flew the banner of Fingolfin/> and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms and seven in the air and fell in a singing rain of crystal: therein did the sun glitter splendidly by day, and the moon most magically shimmered by night. The birds that dwelt there were of the whiteness of snow and their voices sweeter than a lullaby of music.
* * * *
P. 10: On either side of the doors of the palace were the gilded images of two trees, one {that bore blossom} of gold and the other of silver, {nor did they ever fade, for} and they were {shoots from} likenesses of the glorious Trees of Valinor that lit those places before [Morgoth] and [Ungoliant] withered them: and those trees the Gondothlim named
Gling[a]l and B[elthi]l.

P. 11: Then Turgon [K]ing of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, < TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol,> and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, < TO {with a} = /and at his side/ a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath>, stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. < QS77 [A]nd upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son, but upon his left hand sat Idril Celebrindal his daughter> < TO {and that it was to be emphasized, either when Tuor first set eyes upon Idril or at some earlier point, that} = /and at the sight of her Tuor marvelled, for/ he had known or even seen few woment in his life. Most of the women and all the children of Annael's company in Mithrim were sent away south; and as a thrall Tuor had seen only the proud and barbarous women of the Easterlings, who treated him as a beast, or the unhappy slaves forced to labour from childhood, for whom he had only pity.> {"Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was set in our books of wisdom, and it has been written that there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim whenso thou faredst hither."}

There is no later indication of this prophecy.

P.12: Then {spake Tuor}< Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo < TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared[.] < QS77And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish; and he bade him depart, and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down Sirion to the sea[,]> < TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon} = /and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished./>> {and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. "Behold, 0 father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the Noldoli and the wanderings of Men; for Melko ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe."}

I added 'in the hearing of all' from TO; that outline says that this occurs either 'in the hearing of all' or 'in a council-chamber'. There's really nothing to push us in either direction, but the former is much easier to work into the narrative, so I went with it.

P. 13-15: < QS77Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>

Here I would delete all 3 paragraphs from FG. The exact dialogue they use here is not so relevant to the later story; for example, the message bidding Tuor to prepare for battle appears to have been dropped. I think it's better to follow the more concise account of their converse above, at least until:

P. 16: Then said Turgon: [']Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of Melko or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone
out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of Melko; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.[']

I eliminate 'that is called' as Tuor has just spoken of the Sirion, and obviously knows what it is. After this paragraph, I think we can follow FG with more limited corrections.

In a few places, I've used passages from QS77 here that I believe were created by CRT; I think this is better here (and allowed by our principles), as it achieves slightly better unity of style.

</p>[i]Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000320>Aiwendil</A> at: 7/25/01 10:18:04 am

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

Aiwendil

07-25-2001, 08:16 AM

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On the seven names of Gondolin

First, I'll deal strictly with updating the old names:

Gondobar, Loth, and, of course, Gondolin can stay. 'Gondothlimbar' is merely the class plural for the dwellers in Gondolin + _bar_; I believe the later class plural was _Gondolidrim_, so I used *Gondolidrimbar, as awkward as it sounds. There might be better suggestions there. The question mark is for Gwarestrin, where we have a bit more of a problem: this is said in II to mean 'tower of guard'; a literal rendering of this in later Sindarin would be Minas Tirith, which I don't think we can use in light of the Minas Tirith that already exists in the 1st age. A look at the etymological notes in II reveals that 'Gwarestrin' means more literally 'guard pinnacle'; we could represent 'pinnacle' with Sindarin _amon_ or _ered_, 'hill' and 'mountain', respectively. 'Amon Gwareth', of course, already refers to the hill on which the city is built. But I think for 'guard' the best to use is _tir_ as in _tirith_ and _tirion_. Then we might have _Amon Tirith_ or something like that, or we could make an actual compound, _Tiramon_. The last name, 'Lothengriol' presents less of a problem. It is said here to mean 'flower that blooms on the plain', but since 1. I could find no later Sindarin (or Quenya) word for 'plain' and 2. the etymological notes give _engriol_ not as 'plain' but as 'valley', I changed it here to 'valley', using _nan_ for plain. This gives us *Lothnan, which (I think) would become *Lothinan.

On top of these concerns, however, we have several later names for Gondolin that appear in the Etymologies. These are 'Gondost', 'Ardholen', and 'Garthoren'. These names are not mentioned in direct connection with the 7 names of the city; we therefore might assume that they are not among the 7 names. However, as the 7 names already include some that are clearly more colloquial nick-names, and as we never again find any other names for Gondolin, I think we should probably include these three.

That means, of course, that three of the original names must be replaced. 'Gondost' is given as 'stone city'; at first glance, then, it would appear to best replace 'Gondobar', translated 'stone city' by the guard and more literally meaning 'stone dwelling'. However, this is a problem, as we find 'Gondobar' in the etymologies as well. Clearly the two names existed side by side. This leads us to a further problem: if we use both 'Gondost' and 'Gondobar', we'll have basically the same translations used by the guard: 'Gondobar, city of stone, and Gondost, city of stone'. The best solution I can say would be to use something like: 'Gondobar, stone-dwelling, and Gondost, city of stone.'

What, then, should 'Gondost' replace? My inclination would be 'Gondothlimbar' - this is awkward when we update it to _Gondolidrimbar_, and I think the conjunction of 'Gondobar' and 'Gondost' makes the most sense if they appear next to each other. However, beyond these practical concerns, there is nothing particularly to indicate that 'Gondost' would have replaced 'Gondothlimbar'.

The names 'Ardholen' and 'Garthoren' seem to be related. The etymolgies are very confusing on these. Under the stem
GAT(H)-, we are given: "Another name is Garthurian = Fenced Realm = N Ardholen (which was also applied to Gondolin)."

'Another name', I think, refers to Doriath; there is a discussion of Doriath's names a few sentences earlier, and later, _Garthurian_ again appears as a name for Doriath. Here, however, it is equated with _Ardholen_. I'm not sure what we are to understand the relationship to be; perhaps _Garthurian_ is Dorathrin and _Ardholen_ is Noldorin?

Under the stem 3AR- (3 representing the back-spirant), we have: "Dor. garth realm, Garthurian (Fenced Realm = Doriath)" This at least seems to make it clear that _Garthurian_ is Doriathrin, and refers to Doriath.

Later under the same stem (though the stem GARAT- was later inserted for this section), we are given: 'Q arta fort, fortress. N garth: cf. Garth(th)oren 'Fenced Fort' = Gondolin-distinguish Ardh-thoren = Garthurian."

From all this, the only conclusion I can draw is that we are dealing with two separate, though similar, names. One is Doriathrin 'Garthurian', meaning Doriath, the Noldorin form of which, 'Ardholen', refers to Gondolin (a situation that would get confusing if a Noldo wanted to refer to Doriath). The second is 'Garthoren', a a Noldorin name referring only to Gondolin. The first name means 'Fenced Realm', the second means 'Fenced Fort'.

Under the stem THUR- we are given _thuru_ = fence (Noldorin). So 'Garthoren' at least makes sense etymologically. For 'Ardholen' to work, though, we'd need some kind of word *olen meaning 'fence'. This is, I suppose, possible, since 'Ardholen' is JRRT's Noldorin translation of 'Garthurian', which means 'Fenced Realm'.

'Garthoren' looks quite a bit like 'Gar Thurion', one of the original names for Gondolin. Its meaning, however, is completely different: 'Fenced Fort' vs. 'Secret Place'. We could, though, replace 'Gar Thurion' with 'Garthoren' fairly reasonably.

'Ardholen', though, looks very little like any of the original names, in spelling or meaning. If we are to use it as one of the seven names, the best replacement I could come up with would be to use it for the problematic 'Gwarestrin', though there is no real basis for this.

Sorry for the length and tedium of this discussion, but I think it's an important one. The 7 names of Gondolin should definitely be preserved (they are mentioned in TO); and, of course, we have to do our best to make them work etymologically.

</p>

SteadfastSam

07-25-2001, 01:11 PM

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Re: On the seven names of Gondolin

It's coming nicely! I agree with the above changes.

"I will, Lord." said Tuor.</p>

jallanite

07-25-2001, 09:18 PM

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Re: Comments, suggestions, and cavils.

The transition section is mostly pinned down here. Not much point on going on about all the good parts. Here's where I differ or have suggestions.

There seems to be a sentence missing at the beginning, as the transition begins with "Then said Tuor: 'What be those names?'", though the matter of names has not been brought up yet.

I suggest starting a little further back in FG with:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then spake Tuor also and questioned {where they might be, and} who might be the folk in arms who stood about, for he was somewhat in amaze and wondered much at the goodly fashion of their weapons. Then 'twas said to him by one of that company: "We are the guardians of the Way of Escape. Rejoice that ye have found it, for behold before you the City of Seven Names where all who war with M[orgoth] may find hope."<hr></blockquote>I remove the phrase "where they might be" as it is already a strangely unperceptive question in the original, and really cannot stand in the new version where Tuor knows much more from Elemma[c]il and the passing of the other gates. But something is needed to lead into Tuor's question about "these names". And that question about the "folk in arms" follows perfectly from the end of Tuor where we have just been told that<blockquote>Quote:<hr> upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the seven kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented;<hr></blockquote>It is not surprising that Tuor asks about this array of folk greater than he has yet seen.

Is the chief of the Guard to be Elemmacil or Ecthelion? From Tuor:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And high and noble as was Elemma[c]il, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate.<hr></blockquote>Also Elemmacil salutes Ecthelion rather than Echthelion saluting Elemmacil, and the tone of Elemmacil's words are slightly subservient.

For Gondothlimbar we find in "Etymologies" under GOND-<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gondobar (old Gondambar), Gonnobar = Stone of the World = Gondolin. Another name of Gondolin Gondost [OS], whence Gondothrim, Gondothrimbar. [Cf. Gondothlim, Gondothlimbar[/i] in the Lost Tales (II.*342).]<hr></blockquote>CT's note is to the point. Use JRRT's own new form: Gondothrimbar. It is gond 'stone' + ost 'fortress' + rim 'people' + bar 'dwelling'. For ost + r- = othr- refer to "Etymologies" stem OS- where appears:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> othrond fortress, city in underground caves = ost-round (see ROD).<hr></blockquote> Gondothrim may well remain an alternate name for the people of Gondolin beside Gondolindrim, and so used in the name Gondothrimbar, especially when * Gondolindrimbar is such as clumsy tongue-twister.

Tolkien probably intended Gar Thurian to be replaced by the Garth(th)oren of the "Etymologies", which we would write as Garthoren of course. But, as you point out, the meaning of the name has changed. Gar meaning 'place' seems to entirely disappear in true Sindarin and 'garth' is definitely 'fort, fortress'. Changing 'place' to 'fort' in the translation is not a problem. Changing the meaning of the second element, however, destroys the explanation for the name as given. But, perhaps:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Garthoren or the {Secret Place} < Etym: GARAT- Fenced Fort>, for I am {hidden} <u>fenced away</u> from the eyes of M[orgoth].<hr></blockquote>So the name is kept (in its new form) and the meaning is changed per JRRT's notes.
If one really wants to replace this with a form allowing the meaning 'secret', or include such a name beside Garthuren in place of one of the other names, there is always Gond Dolen 'Hidden Rock', which perhaps JRRT would have included as one of the official seven.

Lothengriol is replaced by Loth-a-ladwen in "The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin" in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), so should be considered superceded and to be ignored. But Loth-a-ladwen is not much better for using as later Sindarin. We have no later case of a meaning 'of' or 'the' or 'of the' and ladwen is never found outside of BoLT save this one time. I am inclined to keep it as is, however, as possibly "poetical" and not pure Sindarin. The translation in "The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin" is "the Lily of the Plain", which fits with the note in "Etymologies" under LOT(H)-<blockquote>Quote:<hr> losse blossom (usually owing to association with olosse snow, only used of white blossom [see GOLÓS]).<hr></blockquote>I think Loth-a-ladwen is intended to mean the flower we call Lily-of-the-Valley, used metaphorically of Gondolin, whence the translation "Lily of the Plain" which would be the literal meaning of the Elvish name. Since this translation appears in "The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin" it should be used as the most up-to-date, as well as agreeing with the original BoLT entry Lósengriol in the Appendix to BoLT 2 as 'flower of the vale or lily of the valley'. Possibly merge the information from the Lay which reads:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Loth, the Flower, they name me, saying 'Côr is born again,
even in Loth-a-ladwen, the Lily of the Plain.'<hr></blockquote>The prose could be rendered:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> but those who love me most greatly < Lay, saying [Tirion] is born again,> call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even {Lothengriol, the flower} < Lay Loth-a-ladwen, the Lily> that blooms on the plain.<hr></blockquote> Gwarestrin I am also inclined to keep. It contains the elements gwar, still valid in Amon Gwared and trin which is supposedly a contraction of Tirion. So the meaning "Tower of the Guard' certainly fits. Only esc does not (recognizably) appear in later Sindarin which does not necessarily mean it was dropped.

I think the normal policy should be that BoLT Elvish forms that are not replaced by later counterparts and can't be supported as valid forms in the later legendarium or with great certainty converted to such should be dropped. But the need to keep the seven names for me takes priority for me. Rather than inventing forms or substituting totally different names, I'd rather change the translation of one of the names according to JRRT's own words, and keep the two of the seven that are dubious Sindarin.

For Loth-a-ladwen, I suppose we could use Loth Land. But I don't like that. I suppose one could construct a new form of Gwarestrin from aeg 'point' as Gwaraectrin or Gwarectrin. But that is theorizing and could be less valid than the original form. I think both are here best left alone as partly obscure forms, perhaps not entirely Sindarin. (Compare JRRT's late discussions on the forms ros and wing: he and we can tolerate odd forms in which the derivation of the supposed meaning is not altogether clear, especially in old names, as long as the forms are phonologically possible and the supposed meaning is not almost certainly wrong.)

I don't find the mention of a grey horse alone particularly awkward, probably because we are seeing things from Tuor's point of view, and an arbitrary extra description about something that effects him particularly comes across well enough as a sudden vivid touch. Also, white horses, sometimes mentioned elsewhere, might be so mentioned because such horses are special and not normal. For example, I've encountered readers of LR who have similarly got the idea that most Elves are fair-haired because Tolkien only thinks to mention the hair-color of an Elf in LR when the rare golden or silver hair-colors occur.

Q30 is very explicit about the journey across the plain:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thither they were led and passed the gates of steel, and were brought before the step of the palace of the king.<hr></blockquote>The gates of steel are here the gates of Gondolin. The journey of Tuor and Voronwë alone is here rejected.

Probably change as follows:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> and said {the chief of the guard} [Ecthlelion] that they themselves must abide here, for there were yet many days of their moon of watch to pass, but that Voronwë and Tuor might pass on to Gondolin {; and moreover that they would need thereto no guide, for}<u>*:*</u> "Lo, it stands fair to see and very clear, and its towers prick the heavens above the Hill of Watch in the midmmost plain." Then Tuor and his companion {fared} < Q30 were led> over the plain that was of a marvellous ..."<hr></blockquote>I could not bear to leave out the description of Gondolin though its purpose is now gone.

P.4 Some of that wonderful description of the Spell of Dread simply must be retained for use elsewhere. Unforunately here it must go.

P.5 The description of Tuor as rugged and clad in skins is well enough in the original FG. But what now of his Elvish armour? I suggest here be inserted the description of his armour found later in FG where it is introduced as a gift from Turgon to Tuor.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and marvelling at the stature and gaunt limbs of Tuor, his heavy spear barbed with fish bone and his great harp <u>and his </u> <armour> <made of [Noldo]-steel overlaid with silver; {but} <u>and</u> his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield<u>. But r</u>>ugged was his aspect, and his locks were unkempt, and he was clad in the skin of bears.<hr></blockquote>I don't think we need to delete all the material on differences of Elves and Men. Refer to The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), "Quendi and Eldar", under Sindar:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In general the Sindar apear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.<hr></blockquote>In this late writing Noldor are still "lithe", that is slender. Lets try this:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> {'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth,} <u>Y</u>et was Tuor taller than any that stood there{. I}<u>, though i</u>ndeed the [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for M[orgoth], but {small were} they <u>were</u> < QE strong and tall, but> slender and {very} lithe. They were swift of foot and surpassing fair; sweet and sad were their mouths, and their eyes had ever a joy within quivering to tears; for in those times the [Noldor] were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not. But fate and unconquerable eagerness after knowledge had driven them into far places, and now were they hemmed by M[orgoth] and must make their abiding as fair as they might by labour and by love.<hr></blockquote>One has the very tall, burly Man compared to the Elves who come out before the city to meet him, some of whom are also tall, but not as tall as Tuor, who are also strong, but more slender in build. (Turgon is taller than Tuor presumably, but he is waiting at the palace.) The end of the passage reminds the reader of the situation of the Noldor in Gondolin, as here seen by Tuor, and so I think worth keeping.

P.6 Some of this might be used to augment material treating on the origin of Orks. You are right to drop it here.

P.7 I have also come to feel that the "House of Hador" substitution you use is indeed the best. The swan element of the FG at this point is now present with Tuor's shield and helm instead.

P.11 I think Turgon's speech may be retained with revisions:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then Turgon [K]ing of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, < TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol,> and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, < TO {with a} = /and at his side/ a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath>, stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. "Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was {set in our books of wisdom} <u>foretold by Ulmo</u>, {and it has been written} <u>saying</u> that {there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim} < QS77 beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men> whenso thou faredst hither.['] < QS77 [A]nd upon the King's right hand there stood ....<hr></blockquote>The FG written prophecies are the counterparts to Ulmo's prophecy in later writings and I think something like this might be the minimal change in wording to translate the old account to fit the new. Turgon is of course trying to put the best light on the prophecy.

I am tempted to suggest that Glamdring 'Foehammer' be inserted here as the name of Turgon's sword. But *Sigh!* we cannot know that the sword Turgon is wearing here or at any time in the tale is actually Glamdring. He might have worn Glamdring for years, for example, then bestowed it on another. He might have one sword for state occasions and one for battle.

I also suggest re-using here in describing Idril the phrase from The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), "The Later Quenta Silmarillion", 12:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... her hair was as the gold of Laurelin ere the coming of Melkor.<hr></blockquote>The reader will probably have forgotten this bit of information from the tale of the founding of Gondolin, and it would would provide a vivid touch here at the beginning of the real story of Idril. It also distinguishes Idril from the dark-haired Lúthien.

P.23 Possibly a little more of Tuor's words from Ulmo can be fitted in. At least his introduction:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. "Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who makest deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men<u>.</u><hr></blockquote>Then follow with the standard Q30/ QS77 summary. JRRT does seem to have later dropped altogether the idea that Ulmo urged Turgon to take action other than abandoning Gondolin, and so most of the BoLT account of the message and Turgon's response does have to go.

On the matter of style here, we will have to see when the Maeglin material and other matter of Turgon's stay in Gondolin is fitted in, at what point it is best that the modern style ceases and the archaic style begins. Until then I think the safest is to build the base text with exact words as you are doing.

You are using Amon Gwrareth rather than Amon Gwared. I want to do further checking on that myself, to see if I can fathom better that late emendation, and whether it indeed does appear to be the latest form of the name used.

</p>

Aiwendil

07-26-2001, 09:29 AM

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Re: Comments, suggestions, and cavils.

<<There seems to be a sentence missing at the beginning, as the transition begins with "Then said Tuor: 'What be those names?'", though the matter of names has not been brought up yet.>>

I think you've misread this; it would actually start: "Tuor asked the name of the city, and Elemmakil made answer:"

However, perhaps you are right that we should start a bit earlier. My only reasoning for this starting point was that the first words of TO are: 'Tuor asked the name of the city'. I think your starting point is good, however.

<<Elemma[c]il >>

The c vs. k matter probably requires its own thread. Perhaps that's a topic where we could have more of a group discussion.

<<And high and noble as was Elemma[c]il, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate.>>

I don't think there's a question that Ecthelion outranks Elemmakil. I do think there may be a difference between 'chief of the guard' and 'warden of the gate'. This is really a fairly trivial decision though, as the dialogue could easily have been spoken by either of them.

<<Gondothrim may well remain an alternate name for the people of Gondolin beside Gondolindrim, and so used in the name Gondothrimbar, especially when * Gondolindrimbar is such as clumsy tongue-twister.>>

Agreed.

<<If one really wants to replace this with a form allowing the meaning 'secret', or include such a name beside Garthuren in place of one of the other names, there is always Gond Dolen 'Hidden Rock', which perhaps JRRT would have included as one of the official seven.>>

Or it could be that just as 'Gondolin' = 'Stone-song' was later taken as 'Gond Dolen' = 'Hidden Rock', 'Garthoren' = 'Fenced Fort' may have later been taken as 'Gar Thorin' = 'Hidden place'. The only problem is the word _gar_ which may not have meant 'place' later. (In the actual text I gave I used _nome_ = place, but I definitely don't think this is the way to go.)

<<Lothengriol is replaced by Loth-a-ladwen in "The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin" in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), so should be considered superceded and to be ignored. >>

This had completely escaped my attention. Still, as you point out, Loth-a-ladwen is little better. I think we may still want to change it to a form we know is proper Sindarin, like *Lothinan.

<<but those who love me most greatly < Lay, saying [Tirion] is born again,> call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even {Lothengriol, the flower} < Lay Loth-a-ladwen, the Lily> that blooms on the plain.>>

I like this, but I had thought that perhaps the saying 'Tirion is born again' might be better used at the actual building of Gondolin.

<<I suppose one could construct a new form of Gwarestrin from aeg 'point' as Gwaraectrin or Gwarectrin. But that is theorizing and could be less valid than the original form. I think both are here best left alone as partly obscure forms, perhaps not entirely Sindarin. (Compare JRRT's late discussions on the forms ros and wing: he and we can tolerate odd forms in which the derivation of the supposed meaning is not altogether clear, especially in old names, as long as the forms are phonologically possible and the supposed meaning is not almost certainly wrong.)>>

True. But I'd still probably tap this name as the first to go if we replace any with 'Ardholen' or 'Gondost'.

<<I don't find the mention of a grey horse alone particularly awkward, probably because we are seeing things from Tuor's point of view, and an arbitrary extra description about something that effects him particularly comes across well enough as a sudden vivid touch. Also, white horses, sometimes mentioned elsewhere, might be so mentioned because such horses are special and not normal. For example, I've encountered readers of LR who have similarly got the idea that most Elves are fair-haired because Tolkien only thinks to mention the hair-color of an Elf in LR when the rare golden or silver hair-colors occur.>>

Agreed. Sometimes it's hard to tell which parts of an outline need expansion and which don't.

<<I could not bear to leave out the description of Gondolin though its purpose is now gone.>>

Nonetheless, I think we may have to let this go. While it is an excellent point of description, it seems to me a bit awkward. I wonder if we could (legitimately) work it in somewhere else?

<<Some of that wonderful description of the Spell of Dread simply must be retained for use elsewhere. Unforunately here it must go.>>

Perhaps it could be inserted for Gwindor in the Tale of Turin?

<<But what now of his Elvish armour? >>

I had quite forgotten that (as important a point as it is). I think your corrections are good.

<<though indeed the [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for M[orgoth]>>

I wonder if this should be kept, even if we keep the remarks on their stature. In the Lost Tales, nearly all the Noldoli became slaves of Melko; those in Gondolin were the only free Gnomes; thus, this statement has force and relevance. Here, however, I think it comes off as a little out of place. It is true that some Noldor were made thralls, but it is hardly a general characteristic of all the Noldor that they are bent of back from long labour.

<<You are using Amon Gwrareth rather than Amon Gwared. I want to do further checking on that myself, to see if I can fathom better that late emendation, and whether it indeed does appear to be the latest form of the name used. >>

I had forgotten the late change to Amon Gwared. But I agree it needs checking.

What then of the names Ardholen and Gondost? Do you think these should replace 2 of the 7 names? If so, which ones?

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000320>Aiwendil</A> at: 7/29/01 8:02:47 am

Tar Elenion

07-26-2001, 04:07 PM

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Re: Comments, suggestions, and cavils.

-------------
Quote:
I don't think we need to delete all the material on differences of Elves and Men. Refer to The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), "Quendi and Eldar", under Sindar:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In general the Sindar apear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this late writing Noldor are still "lithe", that is slender. Lets try this:
Quote:
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{'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth,} Yet was Tuor taller than any that stood there{. I}, though indeed the [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for M[orgoth], but {small were} they were < QE strong and tall, but> slender and {very} lithe. They were swift of foot and surpassing fair; sweet and sad were their mouths, and their eyes had ever a joy within quivering to tears; for in those times the [Noldor] were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not. But fate and unconquerable eagerness after knowledge had driven them into far places, and now were they hemmed by M[orgoth] and must make their abiding as fair as they might by labour and by love.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One has the very tall, burly Man compared to the Elves who come out before the city to meet him, some of whom are also tall, but not as tall as Tuor, who are also strong, but more slender in build. (Turgon is taller than Tuor presumably, but he is waiting at the palace.) The end of the passage reminds the reader of the situation of the Noldor in Gondolin, as here seen by Tuor, and so I think worth keeping.
-----------------------------------

The 'but lithe' seems to be refering to the Sindar in comparison to the Noldor. That is the Sindar are more lithe than the Noldor. JRRT greatly changed his mind on the differing statures of Elves and Men. In Lost Tales Tuor was taller than the Elves, but when reading the updated versions this is no longer present. I will post on a seperate thread a comparison of the statures of Elves and Men as JRRT changed them in his writings.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

jallanite

07-26-2001, 05:32 PM

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Re: Elvish size

I had interpreted the words to mean that the Sindar were very like the Noldor, both peoples being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.

You took it that the Sindar were very like the Noldor being dark-haired, strong, and tall, but more lithe than the Noldor, an interpretation that had not occurred to me.

Now that I see it, I can't descide which is meant from that sentence. But the following phrase:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes;<hr></blockquote>perhaps pulls more strongly for my original interpretation: Noldor and Sindar are identical on the average in strength, height, and build.

Also in Tuor JRRT writes:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He was come now almost to his full stature, taller and swifter than any of the Easterlings;<hr></blockquote>So Tuor is a tall man; indeed, even before reaching full growth he is taller than any Easterling.

My intent in the editing of the Tuor passage was to retain there the information that Tuor was a tall man. (A standard scene in traditional romance and epic is the hero appearing in a crowd, taller and more handsome than any of the others, and Tolkien here appears to be following the convention.) But I wished to remove the now invalid information that Elves were on the average shorter than Men, hence my replacement of "small" by "strong and tall" from "Quendi and Eldar".

Assuming that the Noldor and Sindar and the people of the House of Hador averaged about the same height in their prime, then it comes down to how much above the average height of these peoples was Tuor. If slightly above average, then it would be unlikely that he would be taller than anyone in the crowd. If very tall among those people, then the account can stand. Or is the logic instead that because of this account, which we have no reason otherwise not to accept, we know Tuor was very tall among those people?

P.5 I see now that "his heavy spear barbed with fish bone" must be deleted. From Tuor, describing Turor and Voronwë's setting out:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tuor took with him the small bow and arrows that he had brought, beside the gear that he had taken from the hall; but <u>his spear, upon which his name was written in the eleven[ sic]-runes of the North, he set upon the wall</u> in token that he had passed.<hr></blockquote>So he has no spear when he comes to Gondolin. I think "clad in the skins of bears" must also go. It might still be true; but it would be most unusual for Tuor to wear his garments over his mail-coat instead of under it, and so the Noldor would see little of them. Tuor's cloak, Ulmo's gift, which he does naturally wear over his armour, is almost certainly not bear-skin.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanite</A> at: 7/26/01 7:37:56 pm

Tar Elenion

07-26-2001, 05:59 PM

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Re: Elvish size

--------------------
Quote:
I had interpreted the words to mean that the Sindar were very like the Noldor, both peoples being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.

You took it that the Sindar were very like the Noldor being dark-haired, strong, and tall, but more lithe than the Noldor, an interpretation that had not occurred to me.

Now that I see it, I can't descide which is meant from that sentence. But the following phrase:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

perhaps pulls more strongly for my original interpretation: Noldor and Sindar are identical on the average in strength, height, and build.
-------------------------------
I answered this more fully in the 'Statures' thread. For the sake of completeness I will refer here to 'Numenorean Linear Measures' where it is noted that the Teleri are less in build and stature than the Noldor; and to the appendix to 'Quendi and Eldar', where it is noted that the Quendi from whom the Noldor came were 'tall and strong' while the other Quendi are not described in this way (taking this to be a comparison to the other Quendi of course). Perhaps if this needs to be continued it should be done in the other thread?

----------------------------
Quote:
My intent in the editing of the Tuor passage was to retain there the information that Tuor was a tall man. (A standard scene in traditional romance and epic is the hero appearing in a crowd, taller and more handsome than any of the others, and Tolkien here appears to be following the convention.) But I wished to remove the now invalid information that Elves were on the average shorter than Men, hence my replacement of "small" by "strong and tall" from "Quendi and Eldar".

Assuming that the Noldor and Sindar and the people of the House of Hador averaged about the same height in their prime, then it comes down to how much above the average height of these peoples was Tuor. If slightly above average, then it would be unlikely that he would be taller than anyone in the crowd. If very tall among those people, then the account can stand. Or is the logic instead that because of this account, which we have no reason otherwise not to accept, we know Tuor was very tall among those people?
-----------------------------

I have some vague recollection of JRRT addressing Tuor's height in Gondolin in one of his later essays, I think he was also speaking of Turin or Hurin as well. I dont recall where this was offhand (and may be mis-remembering), but I will attempt to hunt it down.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

Aiwendil

07-28-2001, 10:30 AM

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Re:Comments, suggestions, and cavils.

I said in my last post: <<I do think there may be a difference between 'chief of the guard' and 'warden of the gate'. >>

Confirming my supposition, from Tuor:

"And Elemmakil, captain of the Guard, who bore the bright lamp, looked long and closely at them."

</p>

jallanite

07-29-2001, 08:36 PM

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Re: More comments

Tar-Elenion,

I also have some such vague recollection as you describe about Turor's height in Gondolin or maybe something about Túrin. Wherever the passage exists, if it does, it is not in the obvious places in the commentary on either of the full tales of Tuor.

Aiwendil:

<u> On the names of Gondolin.</u>

If will try to summarize the current state of discussion and add what I can.

Acceptable:

Gondolin, Gondobar, and [/i]Loth[/i] are fine as they stand, being excellent Sindarin and having the same meanings as their Gnomish originals.

Later Gondothrimbar can replace early Gondothlimbar. It is a form found in the "Etymologies" and is good Sindarin. True, Gondothlim is replaced by a very different form Gondolindrim. However Gondothrim also appears in "Etymologies" and it doesn't matter whether it should be considered an alternate form existing alongside Gondolindrim or a form (almost?) only used as part of Gondothrimbar.

Small difficulty:

Gar Thurian 'Place-Secret' does not work properly in later Sindarin, however the "Etymologies" gives a name of Gondolin Garth(th)oren 'Fort-Frenced', which is almost certainly Tolkien's replacement form. Since both form and meaning can stand, I believe it should be used. I would keep the meaning 'fenced', rather than imagine it being interpreted as an Ilkorin (= Northern Sindarin) form as this involves less supposition and no difficulties. Tolkien gives us both the new form and the new meaning, and we might as well use them.

Major problems:

Gwarestrin is almost valid (which is something like being almost pregnant). Gwar appears nowhere else but in Amon Gwareth/Gwared, but that is enough. It stands. Estrin is explained clearly under Gwarestrin in BoLT 2, Appendix:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> A late entry in GL gives estirin, estirion, estrin 'pinnacle', beside esc 'sharp point, sharp edge'. The second element of this word is tiri(o)n see I.238 ( Kortirion).<hr></blockquote>The entry Kortirion in Bolt 1, Appendix, gives:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The word tirion 'a mighty tower, a city on a hill' is given in QL under root TIRI 'stick up', with tinda 'spike', tirin 'tall tower', tirios 'a town with walls and towers'. There is also another root TIRI, differing in the nature of the medial consonant, with meaning 'watch, guard, keep; look at, observice', whence tiris 'watch, vigil', etc. In GL are tir- 'look out for, await', tirin (poetic form tirion) 'watch-tower, turret', Tirimbrithla 'the Tower of Pearl' (see Silmarilli).<hr></blockquote>In both "Etymologies" and in Road Goes Ever On the Quenya form Tirion is cited as deriving from the stem TIR- and meaning "great watch-tower". This is actually better for meaning. The Noldorin (= Sindarin) counterpart given in "Etymologies" is tirith, but that is obviously not the exact cognate. So -tirion, -tirin, -trin can stand either as a true exact cognate (used poetically?), or a borrowing from Quenya. Its use here is well explained in QS77 "Of the Noldor in Beleriand":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... so that Gondolin upon Amon Gwareth became fair indeed and fit to compare even with Elven Tirion beyond the Sea.<hr></blockquote>Instead of Kortirion we now have Gwar-tirion or Gwar-trin.

But what of the element esc- 'sharp point, edge'. I find it nowhere later. It does seem to have been replaced by EK-, EKTE- 'spear', found in Tolkien final etymologies of Ecthelion and Egamloth in The War of the Jewels for example. So what would the form be? In "Etymologies" from EKTE- Tolkien gives the nouns Q ehte 'spear' and N aith spear-point. So either ek or original ekt- + tirion worn down to trin ought to give eithrin.

(The correspondence of ai] in monosyllables or final syllables to ei elsewhere is normal Sindarin. Compare Q tehta with S andaith 'long mark' from ann + * taith to the same element in teithant 'he drew' on the Moria Gate inscription.)

So a postulated Sindarin form for early Gnomish Gwarestrin is Gwareithrin. Another prossibility is to make it a recent compilation from aeg which Tolkien refers to in Ecthelion and Egamloth and so the form become Gwaraegdrin with lenition of t to d. I believe both are valid forms. So, three choices are to keep the Gwarestrin as possibly valid, replace it by Gwareithrin, or replace it by Gwaraegdrin. I set these forms here for further discussion.

A fourth possibility is to replace Gwarestrin by another name altogother, one we know is valid.

Loth-a-ladwen is early Gnomish. The form ladwen ends like uthwen 'escape' and faidwen 'release, freedom'; so -wen may be a normal genundative or abstract ending of some sort. But do such ending -wen appears in later Sindarin to our knowledge.

One might take ladwen as an early compound from the stems LAT- 'lie open' (which is found in Tumladen and almost certainly in imlad 'valley' and Lithlad 'Ashen Plain') + GWEN 'greenness, freshness' and understand a basic meaning something like 'meadow'. If an early compound the gw would have changed to simple w ( latgwen to ladwen) and not be affected by the later change of gw to b found normally with earlier initial gw in Sindarin. I don't at all believe this etymology, but it is one I think acceptable and would probably be one theorized if ladwen did appear in a later text. Another possibility is to use the adjectival form laden (use normal correction from the Noldorin lhaden in the "Etymologies") as a noun.

For the preposition a which disappears after BoLT we could substitute Sindarin na which seems to have the same meaning. So possible forms are Loth-na-ladwen, Loth-na-laden, Loth-a-laden or the original Loth-a-ladwen.

We can also replace one or both of these forms by ones totally different. We have three correct names referencing Gondolin not appearing among the seven: Gond-dolen 'Hidden Rock', Ardholen 'Realm-Hidden', and Gondoth 'Stone-fort'

The last of these may not have been intended as a true use-name, but rather an intermediate name to explain the etymology of Gondothrim and Gondothrimbar. In BoLT Gondothlim is gond 'stone' + hoth 'folk' + lim 'many' whereas the later form is gond 'stone' + ost 'fortress' + rim 'host'.

Ardholen is almost certainly ardh 'realm, kingdom' + dolen 'hidden'. See the index to QS77:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Hidden Kingdom** Name given to both Doriath ..., and to Gondolin, ...<hr></blockquote>In Tuor "Hidden Kingdom" is always capitalized but "hidden city" is not. Tolkien introduces the form Ardholen in a discussion of by-names used for Doriath 'Land of the Fence', and then mentions parenthetically "(which was also applied to Gondolin)". It is likely that it would have been more accurate to write "(which was also applied to Turgon's secret realm)", since its meaning is unsuitable to refer to the city of Gondolin alone. The Hidden Kingdom contained other guardian fortresses (of which we see seven in the Way of Escape), mines hidden in the mountains, almost certainly farms and orchards, and so forth. Tolkein avoids calling Gondolin a kingdom, I believe, but does refer to the Hidden Kingdom and Turgon as the Hidden King, and his people as the Hidden People.

But Gondost and Gond-dolen are available as names of the city.

I'm not recommending anything here for these two last city names. Just laying forth the data and pushing it around and seeing what can be done. Of the these major problems nothing seems right to me yet, or I guess I would not classify them as major problems.

Elemmacil/Ecthelion

On "chief of the guard", "captain of the guard", "Warden of the Great Gate" there is no certainty it seems. I would assume "chief" and "captain" are equivalent terms, and "captain" takes priority with us. Elemmacil reports to no-one at any of the other gates save the last, so is perhaps chief of the guards for all seven gates. Yet though Ecthelion is "Warden of the Great Gate" not Warden of the Gates, he appears to be Elemmacil's superior.

Of course there is only one gate in FG. In Tuor the "chief of the guard" has been broken into two persons, and one of them identified with Echthelion. Probably each of the other six gates had its own warden, all reporting to the "Warden of the Great Gate". The charge of the wardens would be normal maintainance and providing support for the guards. And the guards would report to Elemmacil who also reports to the "Warden of the Great Gate". There's no definite answer though as to who says what in FG other than whether words seem to better fit Elemmacil or Ecthelion.

</p>

Tar Elenion

07-30-2001, 09:47 PM

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Re: More comments

------------------
Quote:
I would keep the meaning 'fenced', rather than imagine it being interpreted as an Ilkorin (= Northern Sindarin) form as this involves less supposition and no difficulties.
---------------

I would note that Ilkorin = North Sindarin is supposition. I think Mr Fauskanger suggests this as a possibility at Ardalambion. I think it is more likely that Ilkorin sould be equated with the speech of the Laiquendi and Nandor (though this is supposition on my part). VT 42 just came out and it gives some notes on the Sindarin varieties which may indicate that Ilkorin should not be equated with North Sindarin.

Re Elemmakil:
I think 'captain of the Gaurd' is refering to his position as commander of the Dark (or Outer) Gaurd. That is those charged with gaurding the tunnel and Gate of Wood.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

Aiwendil

08-07-2001, 02:58 PM

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Miscellaneous comments

Well, it's certainly been quiet here lately.

Elemmakil/Ecthelion
The question is: who replaced the captain of the Guard from the Lost Tales, Elemmakil or Ecthelion? I would submit that it was Elemmakil, though the question obviously does not have so simple an answer. There are points in favor of each:

1. Ecthelion is clearly the highest ranking Noldo in the scene; the captain of the Guard in LT is likewise the highest ranking Noldo on the scene. However:

2. a. Elemmakil is referred to as 'captain of the guard' and
b. Ecthelion already existed when the LT was written; he is therefore clearly NOT the same person as the captain of the guard from LT. 'Elemmakil' could easily be the name of that person, though.

I think overall, 2 is the stronger argument. This is probably a matter for a vote, though.

Elemmacil vs. Elemmakil
We should probably lay down some kind of guideline for all c vs. k issues. We clearly (I think) intend on keeping Melkor and Tulkas, whereas I think we equally clearly intend on replacing Menelmakar with Menelmacar, for instance. Elemmacil/Elemmakil falls somewhere in between; Elemmacil is, as far as I know, unattested, but it does seem likely that it would have changed.

Further names to consider
Just a few stray thoughts on some names not covered by jallanite's (very thorough) list:

Othrod, Balcmeg, Lug, and Orcobal: These are the names of Orcs slain in the battle. It seems inadvisable to tamper with them, but I think they do need a little a thought. First of all, what language are they? 'Othrod' and 'Lug' do not appear in the name-list for the Fall of Gondolin. 'Lug' certainly sounds Orcish rather than Elven, and Othrod has no likely Elvish etymology save perhaps oth + rod = 'round cave'! However, Balcmeg and Orcobal are given in the List, and seem to be Gnomish. It seems unlikely that four Orc names given in such proximity would be given so inconsistently that some are in Orcish and some in Gnomish (Sindarin).

So, we have two choices here: try to update 'Balcmeg' and 'Orcobal' into later Sindarin, and assume that 'Lug' and 'Othrod' are given inconsistently in Orcish; or leave all four names exactly as they are, and assume either that they are all Orcish, or that there are fairly bizarre Sindarin etymologies for them that we can't even guess at. I'd probably favor the latter, but it needs thought.

Dramborleg: The name of Tuor's axe, said to mean "Thudder-sharp". There seems to be no later Sindarin etymology for it, though. Should we keep the name, assuming an unknown etymology, or delete it? (This problem is similar to that of 'Rog').

One final, very miscellaneous, idea: just after Tuor reaches the Square of the Folkwell, in the paragraph beginning, "There were the scatterlings . . .", there is mention of oak and poplar trees. As far as I can tell, this is the only mention of these trees in the tale. The Tuor outline in UT mentions mounds of mallorns, birches, and evergreens, but CRT notes that mallorns were never elsewhere connected with Gondolin. Hence, I am extremely tempted to replace 'oaks and poplars' with 'mallorns and birches', though this is of course extremely dubious.

</p>

jallanite

08-12-2001, 01:27 PM

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Re: Miscellaneous comments

Elemmakil/Ecthelion

The more I look the less I care. Actually, since the name of the chief of the guard in FG isn't given we don't know that he wasn't Ecthelion. Go by who is most likely to speak the words in the tales as revised.

Elemmacil vs. Elemmakil

Tolkien was still using k in some early Appendix material, most of which was written after Tuor. The decision to use c throughout for the k sound in Elvish, except before the w sound, was a very late decision by Tolkien, so we should not expect to find it implemented in Tuor or in other works CT dates around 1951. But macil 'sword' seems to have been a common element in names. In published LR Narmacil and Calmacil are names in the line of the Kings of Gondor. In Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10) Tolkien gives Mormacil 'Blacksword', the Quenya version of Túrin's byname. All three forms have c rather than k.

Ork names

Yes, who can say what they are? I think you are right, leave them alone unless an obvious correction appears. All names need not be meaningful as Tolkien stresses in his later writings. And he was always ready to change the etymology to fit the form. There are at least three different etymologies for Ecthelion. As the Black Speech did not exist at the time of the Fall of Gondolin, the Orks may be using Sindarin names, perhaps dialectical, or they may be names in some Orkish tongue, but partly adapted in the tale to Sindarin style.

Dramborleg

The index to BoLT 2 says Dramborleg means 'Thudder-sharp'. from root TARA, TARAMA 'batter, thud, beat' with the second element being leg, lêg 'keen, piercing'.

For the identical Sindinarin form the etymology is slightly different but meaning is close enough as to make it certain JRRT was purposely justifying the name.

See drambor 'clenched fist, hence blow with fist (see KWAR)' under DARÁM- in "Etymologies". The word dramb, dram(m) means 'a heavy stroke, a blow (e.g. of axe)'.

For the second element, see the stem LAIK- 'keen, sharp, acute'. The Noldorin form given is lhaeg which we would normalize in Sindarin as laeg. I would expect this to reduce to leg in the last syllable in a compound, and indeed it does in an example under the stem LAS²- where the Q name Lastalaika 'sharp-ears' has the Noldorin cognate Lhathleg.

Dramborleg stands with no problems.

Poplars and Oaks

I think it unlikely that two kinds of deciduous trees, mallorn and birch, and no other would be found in Gondolin. Certain particular mounds (or whatever the word is) had on them or about them mallorn, birch, and evergreen trees. That says nothing about trees in the rest of the city. Leave the reference.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanite</A> at: 8/12/01 3:42:31 pm

jallanite

08-19-2001, 03:14 PM

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Re: The Attack on Gondolin

<u> The Attack</u>

This deals with the coming of the Orks to Gondolin and the first part of their battle for untruth, injustice and Morgoth's way up to just before just before Ecthelion's battle with Gothmog at the pargraph beginning "Now Tuor reached the Square of the Folkwell by a way entering from the north, and found there Galdor ...." I am not covering changes to the dragons or the Balrogs as these are covered in separate posts at "Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin?" http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000101pub12.ezboard.com/fthebarrowdownsthesilmarillionproposeddraftcanonst udiesandtheories.showMessage?topicID=101.topic</a> and "Bye Bye Balrogs" at http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000105pub12.ezboard.com/fthebarrowdownsthesilmarillionproposeddraftcanonst udiesandtheories.showMessage?topicID=105.topic</a>.

Codes for my sources are as follows:
FG "The Fall of Gondolin" from The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoME 2).
Q30 "The Quenta", written in 1930, from The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4). Quotations are from §16 and from §17 in the Q2 version including later emendations as per the notes.
QS77 Quenta Silmarillion as published in The Silmarillion edited by Christopher Tolkien in 1977.

To make references easier I have given each mini-discussion a code of the form FG-A followed by a two-digit decimal number. The A stands for "Attack". (Decimal numbers could be used for any problem passages I have missed, to keep the order.)

Each section lists the sources from which it is drawn in its header. The first source listed is the primary source, and the second is the secondary source. Main text is always from the primary source and inserted text from the secondary source. When there are more than two sources the codes given at the beginning of this post will be included at the beginning of each insertion.

I naturally do not include passages where the only change is regular normalization: change of a proper name to the latest form, change of a directional word, or changing quotation mark standards from double then single to single then double.

On the directional words: Tolkien reversed compass directions in the accounts following FG so that, at least in parts of the battle and in the flight of the fugitives, FG "south" must become "north", FG "north" must become "south", and FG "west" must become "east". These changes are to be made in the geography of Gondolin, Tumladen, and the Encircling Mountains everywhere in FG (other than in placing the Way of Escape to the west) and in one passage to follow.

The following symbols are used:
[ ] Normalized, usually used for proper names indicating they are here in final form, not as in original text. Eg. "[Huor]" probably represents an original "Peleg", "[nor]thward", represents original "southward", and "[']" represents original """.
< > Material inserted from secondary source. If more than one secondary source occurs in the passage then a code appears after the opening angle-bracket, eg. "< QS77 ".
{ } Material to be deleted.
<u>Underline</u> Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

<u> FG-A01 (FG)</u> Introduction:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now when the {seventh} summer <u>of</u> <the treason of M[a]eglin> had gone {since the treason of Meglin}, and Eärend[il] was yet of very tender years though a valorous child, M[orgoth] withdrew all his spies, for every path and corner of the mountains was now known to him;<hr></blockquote>In all chronologies from the "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand" to the last version of "The Tale of Years" Maeglin's treachery occurs the year before the fall of Gondolin, not seven years and and some months before its fall as in FG. I have slightly changed a phrase and moved its position to create the required new information.

<u> FG-A02 (FG)</u> Maeglin's discovery of the hidden way:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ; and by reason of the folly of certain of the quarrymen, and yet more by reason of the loose words of certain among his kin to whom word was somewhat unwarily spoken by Tuor, he gathered a knowldge of the secret work and laid against that a plan of his own<hr></blockquote>These words should possibly be deleted. In QS77 there is an account of the preparation of the Secret Way which ends with the words: "and no whisper of it came to Maeglin's ears." But I cannot find sources for most of this passage and suspect it to be a CT/Guy Kay editorial addition. If no-one else can find a source then the story of Maeglin's discovery should perhaps be retained.

<u> FG-A03 (FG)</u> Gladness in winter:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... yet the fountains played ever on Amon Gware[d] {and the two trees blossomed,} and folk made merry till the day of terror that was hidden in the heart of M[orgoth].<hr></blockquote>The two trees of Gondolin are now metal images, not live blossoming trees.

<u> FG-A04 (FG, Q30)</u> The two festivals:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> So came and passed with revelry of children the festival of {Nost-na-Lothion or} the Birth of Flowers, and the hearts of the Gondolim were uplifted for the good promise of the year; and now at length is that great feast <they named> {Tarnin Austa or} the Gates of Summer near at hand.<hr></blockquote>[i] Nost is dubious for 'birth', but could be kept as the stem still appears in "Etymologies" with meaning 'beget', but Tarnin Austa is almost certainly not valid, and so stylistically it makes sense to drop the Elvish names of both feasts.

<u> FG-A05 (FG, Q30)</u> Light in the North:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> <At last, and Eärend[il] was then seven years of age, Morgoth was ready, and he loosed upon Gondolin his Or[k]s and his Balrogs and his serpents; and of these, dragons of many and dire shapes {were} new devised for the taking of the city. The host of Morgoth came over the Northern hills where the height was greatest and the watch less vigilant, and it came at night at time of festival><u>.</u> For know that on <u>that</u> night it was their custom to begin a solemn ceremony at midnight, continuing it even till the dawn of {Tarnin Austa} <the Gates of Summer> broke, and no voice was uttered in the city from midnight till the break of day, but the {dawn} <rising sun> they hailed with ancient songs <at its uplifting>. For years uncounted had the coming of summer thus been greeted with music of choirs, <all the folk of Gondolin> standing upon their gleaming eastern wall; and now comes even the night of vigil and the city is filled with silver lmaps, while in the groves upon the new-leaved trees lights of jewelled colours swing, and low musics go along the ways, but no voice sings until the dawn.
****The sun has sunk beyond the hills and folk array them for the festival gladly and eagerly*** glancing in expectation to the East. {Lo!} <But> even when she was gone and all was dark, a new <red> light suddenly began, and a glow there was, but it {was} <mounted> beyond the {northward heights} <hills in the North and not in the East>, and men marvelled, and there was a thronging of the walls and battlements.<hr></blockquote>
For know that on a night it was their custom to begin a solemn ceremony at midnight, continuing it even till the dawn of {Tarnin Austa} <u>the Gates of Summer</u> broke, ...[/quote]Merging of the two accounts. I removed the word "were" as a detailed account of the devising will have already appeared from FG. This is the only place where directions in the old FG account should not be reversed.

<u> FG-A06 (FG)</u> Turgon's emblems:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Mighty was the array of the house of the king and their colours were white and gold {and red}, and their emblems the moon and the sun {and the scarlet heart}.<hr></blockquote> The embalmed heart of Turgon's father which became his symbol early vanished from the legendarium. I suppose he could still have the heart as a symbol, but now with some other origin. But such is never mentioned. Removing all information on colors and emblems here is difficult because the information is given for every other house and at the end we are told: "This was the fashion and the array of the eleven houses of the Gondothlim with their signs and emblems, ...." Unfortunately Tolkien, so far as I know, did not create a colored heraldic design for Turgon as he did for many of the other Noldorin princes.

<u> FG-A07 (FG, Q30)</u> The Comming of the Host:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****And now came the Monsters across the valley <and there was no stay in the advance of the foe until they were beneath the very walls of Gondolin> and the white towers of Gondolin reddened before them <, and Gondolin was beleaguered without hope>.<hr></blockquote> Merging two accounts.

<u> FG-A08 (FG)</u> Maeglin's plotting:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> {Learning much of the secret delving of Tuor (yet only at the last moment had he got this knowledge and he could not discover all) he said nought to the king or any other, for it was his thought that of a surety that tunnel would go in the end toward the Way of Escape, this being the most nigh to the city, and he had a mind to use this to his good, and to the ill of the Noldli. {Messenges by great stealth he dispatched to Melko to set a guard about the outer issue of that Way when the assault was made}; but} He himself thought now to take Eärend and cast him into the fire beneath the walls, and seizing Idril he would {constrain her to guide him to the secrets of the passage, that he might} win out of this terror of fire and slaugher and drag her withal along with him to the lands of M[orgoth]{. Now M[a]eglin was afeared that even} <u>with</u> the secret token which M[orgoth] had given him {would fail in that dierful sack, and was minded to help that Ainu to the fulfilment of his promises of safety}.<hr></blockquote>These outer deletions need not be made if it is decided that the QS77 declaration that Maeglin did not discover the delving is taken as valid. Unless someone can find the passage that says so and is the souce of the QS77 I think they should be retained.

In any case, the last part of it is seemingly a backflash to when Maeglin first discovered the Tuor's tunnel, at which point he then, and only then, sent to Melko concerning the Way of Escape. This is odd, why wait till then to mention this possible exit? And as CT questions, who would Meglin be able to trust to send on this mission? This also depends on whether the Way of Escape is considered openable at this time, or whether all such mentions should be ignored. I think probably a separate Way of Escape discussion is needed on this theme, like Balrogs and metal dragons it is a thread of incidents that needs to be treated as a whole, and which does not effect anything else in the tale.

Odd variant version

From [i] The Hobbit, chapter IV, "Over Hill and Under Hill", on Orcrist:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> They knew the sword at once. It had killed hundreds of goblins in its time, when the fair elves of Gondolin hunted them in the hills or did battle before their walls.<hr></blockquote>This seems to picture a long siege in which there are battles before the walls. The hunting in the hills might refer to the time of Morogth's spying, but if any Orks escaped to tell the tale, would that not have revealed Gondolin's location to Morgoth? Even too great a slaughter or Orkish spies in particular regions would have cast suspicion on those regions.

In the original FG only Rog and his troop fight before the walls and are quickly destroyed to an elf: all other fighting occurs within the city. I don't think anything can be done with this but ignore it.

</p>

Aiwendil

08-21-2001, 08:26 AM

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Re: The Attack on Gondolin

FG-A01: Agree
FG-A02: I cannot find any source for this statement either; I agree that the text should be kept unless something turns up.
FG-A03: Agree
FG-A04: Well, we could possibly make keep a Sindarin name for 'Gates of Summer' using _annon_=gate, and a Sindarin form of either Q. _Laire_ or Q. _Saiwen_, just to give us another option; but I agree that deleting both names is the way to go.
FG-A05: Agree.
FG-A06: Agree.
FG-A07: Agree.
FG-A08: Agree; again I think we need not make the two outer deletions.

Regarding the Hobbit version: I think we should ignore this, classing it with the later change in the Hobbit whereby the Sun and Moon were implied to have existed from the beginning.

</p>

jallanite

09-09-2001, 03:27 PM

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Re: Maeglin's Treachery

<u> Maeglin's Treachery</u>

The main difference in this part of the tales are differing accounts of how Morgoth discovered the location of Gondolin.

In FG Melko is made suspicious by hearing reports of a Man, Tuor, wandering in this area and sends out his spies to investigate. They discover the Way of Escape through some captured Noldoli, capture more Noldoli within the Way of Escape, and finally scale the Encircling Hills and behold Gondolin.

In the latest account WH Morgoth discovers the region in which Gondolin probably exists by the despairing cries of Húrin to Turgon where the former entrance to the Way of Escape stands. But no spy can come within sight of Gondolin because of the Eagles. The Way of Escape is shut; and even when it was open, few or no Noldor who were not of Gondolin ever passed that way or knew Gondolin's location.

In both accounts Morogth's winning of Maeglin is the final key to his assault. But in FG this occurs soon after Eärendil's birth and Morgoth only then begins preparations for the assault which occurs about six years later. In the later accounts Maeglin's captivity occurs when Eärendil is six, and the attack on Gondolin follows during the next year.

Accordingly the account of years of preparation by Morgoth must either by condensed into a single year, or have started when Húrin first revealed the approximate location of Gondolin. Since Tolkien insists in WH note 30 that Morgoth did know well Gondolin's location at the time of the capture of Maeglin and that what Maeglin had to promise was to undermine Gondolin's resistance, it appears likely to me that the preparations have in fact been long underway.

Codes for my sources are as follows:
FG "The Fall of Gondolin" from The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoME 2).
Q30 "The Quenta", written in 1930, from The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4). Quotations are from §15 and from §16 in the Q2 where it exists, otherwise th Q1 version.
WH "The Wanderings of Húrin" from The War of the Jewels (HoME 11).
QS77 Quenta Silmarillion as published in The Silmarillion edited by Christopher Tolkien in 1977.

The following symbols are used:
[ ] Normalized, usually used for proper names indicating they are here in final form, not as in original text. Eg. "[Huor]" probably represents an original "Peleg", "[nor]thward", represents original "southward", and "[']" represents original """.
< > Material inserted from secondary source. If more than one secondary source occurs in the passage then a code appears after the opening angle-bracket, eg. "< QS77 ".
{ } Material to be deleted.
<u>Underline</u> Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

Each section of text is given a recgnition code using FG- for "Fall of Gondolin" followed by M for "Maeglin" followed by a two-digit number.

Because of the complexity of this account which skips around in the texts the following sections cover the entire output text, with omissions only occurring within a section where they are indicated by ellepsis. There are no gaps between the sections.

I begin just after the birth of Eärendil and the description of his beauty.

FG-M01 (QS77): Gondolin revealed.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> <u>N</u>one knew that the region wherein the Hidden Kingdom lay had been at last revealed to Morgoth by the cries of Húrin, when standing in the wilderness beyond the Encircling Mountains and finding no entrance he called on Turgon in despair. Thereafter the thought of Morgoth was bent unceasing on the mountainous land between Anach and the upper waters of Sirion<u>.</u><hr></blockquote>This is almost certainly an editorial insertion by CT based on the account in WH but may be retained as it states only what we know must be the case. We don't have the freedom to create one as good by ourselves out of fragments.

FG-M02 (FG): Morgoth sends spies.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And {he} <u>Morgoth</u> got together a mighty army of spies; sons of the Or[k]s were there with eyes of yellow and green like cats that could pierce all glooms and see through mist or fog or night; snakes ...
...
... to search out the dwelling of the Noldo[r] {that had escaped his thraldom} <u>of Turgon[/i]; for these his heart burnt to destroy or to ensl</u><hr></blockquote>The modifications are the change of "he" to "Morgoth" for readiblity and of the phrase "that had escaped his thraldom} to "of Turgon". The sons of Fëanor and their people are also free from Morgoth's thraldom. This phrase may go back to Tolkien's original version of FG where the sons of Fëanor probably did not exist.

FG-M03 (FG, WH): Findings of the spies.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****Now while Tuor dwelt in happiness and in great increase of ...
...
... indeed {among} many hidden things {that} they dragged to light {they discovered that Way of Escape whereby Tuor and Voronwë entered aforetime. Nor had they ...
...
... the Noldoli creeping there to flee from thraldom}. They had scaled too the Encircling [Mountains] at certain places {and gazed upon the beauty of the city of Gondolin and the strength of Amon Gwareth from afar; but into the plain they could not win for} < WH though because of> the vigilance of its guardians <u>and</u> < WH the Eagles> < FG and the difficulty of those mountains> no spy of {his} <u>Morgoth's</u> could yet come within sight of the land behind {the Encircling Mountains}> <u>them to </u> < FG gaze{ed} upon the beauty of the city of Gondolin and the strength of Amon Gware[d] from afar> {but into the plain they could not win for the vigilance of its guardians and the difficulty of those mountains.<hr></blockquote> This is somewhat confusing as I have moved phrases to different positions in the last sentence to retain as much as possible and they show twice in this text, once as deleted and once as being retained or being inserted. In the original FG the spies could see Gondolin from the heights but could get no farther because of the vigilence of the Elves. In WH the spies cannot get even that far because of the vigilence of the Eagles. However I have kept the watch of the Elves also. In this account both Eagles and Elves are active. CT similarly keeps mentions of the "leaguer" from Q30 in QS77.

FG-M03 (FG): The construction of the secret way.[/b]<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Indeed the Gondo[lindr]rim were mighty archers ...
...
... and egged by Idril Tuor keepeth ever at his secret delving{;}<u>.</u><hr></blockquote>This whole section to be retained without change. In published writings an account of the construction of the secret way appears only in QS77 and FG indicating the account in FG is probaby a summary of the FG account by CT and Guy Kay.

FG-M04 (FG, Q30 §15, Q II}: Turgon's policy of isolation continues.[/b]<blockquote>Quote:<hr> <Tidings Turgon heard of Thor[o]ndor concerning the slaying of Dior, Thingol's heir, and thereafter he shut his ear to word of the woes without; and he vowed to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor; and his folk he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills>; but seeing that the leaguer of spies hath grown thinner Turgon dwelleth more at ease and in less fear.<hr></blockquote>The final ruin of Doriath belongs chronologically to this period and so is inserted at this point. I have noticed the awkward changes of tenses and levels of archaism in the resulting sentence. I am purposely not dealing with such stylistic problems at this time.

FG-M05 (FG): Morgoth prepares for war with labor of thralls.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Yet these years are filled by M[orgoth] in the midst ...
...
... stray ever a foot from their places of bondage.<hr></blockquote>This sentence kept intact without change.

FG-M06 (Q30, FG): Maeglin is captured.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> On a time, when Eärend[il] was yet young, and the days of Gondolin were full of joy and peace {(and yet Idril's heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit like a cloud)}, M[a]eglin was lost. Now Ma[e]glin loved ...
...
... and so it came to pass, as fate willed, that M[a]eglin < FG straying in the mountains alone> was taken < FG prisoner by some of> the Or[k]s < FG prowling there, and they would do him evil and terrible hurt, knowing him to be a man of the Gondo[lindr]im. This was however unknown of Tuor's watchers>. < Q30 M[a]eglin was no weakling or craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his soul, and <evil came into the heart of M[a]eglin, and he said to his captors: ...
...
... the adders that twined about its legs, M[orgoth] bade him speak. Then he told> {he purchased his life and freedom by revealing} unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin<u>.</u><hr></blockquote>Merging of the two accounts. Idril's foreboding is removed here as this is the only occurrence in Q30 and must be taken as a short summary covering the much fuller account in FG given in "The Attack on Gondolin" in a previous post in this thread. Q30 mentions Maeglins's fear of torture only after he is taken to Angband by the Orks, but that is probably from compression, not because JRRT necessarily changed the story. Maeglin would have feared torture both when captured by the Orks and later when brought before Morgoth. Indeed in FG Morgoth, after the agreement is made, again threatens Maelgin with "the torment of the Balrogs" in return for any treachery. The words "he purchased his life and freedom by revealing" are removed here because in the latest account in WH revealing the location of Gondolin is not what preserves Maeglin's life. Morgoth already knows that information. See the next section.

FG-M07 WH note 30, Q30): Morgoth's first answer.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Morgoth {must} answer<u>ed</u> laughing, saying: <u>'</u>Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not so easily blinded!<u>'</u> So Maeglin was obliged to offer more*** <the ways whereby it might be {found and} assailed> <u>and</u> to <u>himself</u> undermine resistance in Gondolin.<hr></blockquote>Merger of two accounts. The futher arrangement concering Tuor, Eärendil, and Idril is covered in the following section FG.

FG-M08 (FG, Q30, WH note 30): Morgoth and Maeglin agree.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> <u>A</u>nd M[orgoth] hearkening spake very fair to him, that the insolence of his heart in great measure returned.
****< Q30 Great indeed was the joy of Morgoth><u>.</u> Now the end of this was that [M]orgoth aided by the cunning of M[a]eglin devised a plan for the overthrow of Gondolin. For this Ma[e]glin's reward was to be {a great captaincy among the Orcs} < Q30 the lordship of Gondolin, as his vassal> < Q30 when that city should be taken>*** yet M[orgoth] purposed not in his heart to fulfil such a promise*** {but} <u>and</u> {Tuor and Eärendel should Melko burn and} <u>Maeglin was to</u> < WH compass the death of Tuor and Eärendil if he could. If he did {he}> Idril < WH would> be given to M[a]eglin's arms*** and such promises was that evil one fain to redeem. < Q30 Lust for Idril and hatred of Tuor led M[a]eglin the easier to this foul treachery.<hr></blockquote>A merging of three accounts.

FG-M09 (FG): Further discussion between Morgoth and Maeglin.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Yet as meed of treachery did M[orgoth] threaten M[a]eglin with the torment of the ...
...
... lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death.<hr></blockquote>In this section is included Maeglin's suggestion of devising new dragons, which is covered in the separate thread "Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin?" http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000101pub12.ezboard.com/fthebarrowdownsthesilmarillionproposeddraftcanonst udiesandtheories.showMessage?topicID=101.topic</a>. Any changes to this passage conerning dragons are to be considered there and not here.

FG-M10 (FG, Q30): Maeglin returns.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then <Morgoth sent> M[a]eglin {was bidden fare home lest at his absence men suspect somewhat} back to Gondolin, lest men should suspect the betrayal, and so that M[a]eglin should aid the assault from within when the hour came>; but M[orgoth] wove about him the spell of bottomless dread, and he had thereafter neither joy nor quiet in his heart. Nonetheless <u>though</u> <evil <u>was</u> in his heart<u>,</u>> he {wore} <abode in the halls of the king with> a fair mask of good liking and gaiety, so that men said: "M[a]eglin is softened", and he was held in less disfavour; ...
...
... bidden once more to the terrors of the halls of darkness.<hr></blockquote>Merging of two accounts.

FG-M11 (FG): The creation of new dragons.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then on a time M[orgoth] assembled all his most cunning ...
...
... the most dire of all those monsters which M[orgoth] devised against Gondolin.<hr></blockquote>Changes concerning the dragons in this passage are to be discussed in the "Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin?" http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000101pub12.ezboard.com/fthebarrowdownsthesilmarillionproposeddraftcanonst udiesandtheories.showMessage?topicID=101.topic</a>. Changes concerning the Balrogs in this passage are to be discussed in the thread "Bye Bye Balrogs" at http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000105pub12.ezboard.com/fthebarrowdownsthesilmarillionproposeddraftcanonst udiesandtheories.showMessage?topicID=105.topic</a>. Otherwise the account remains unchanged.

</p>

Aiwendil

12-02-2001, 01:07 PM

Tuor in Gondolin

Here is my version of the brief section we're still missing between the Transition and the Maeglin's Treachery.

The following symbols are used:
[ ] Normalized, usually used for proper names indicating they are here in final form, not as in original text. Eg. "[Huor]" probably represents an original "Peleg", "[nor]thward", represents original "southward", and "[']" represents original """.
< > Material inserted from secondary source. If more than one secondary source occurs in the passage then a code appears after the opening angle-bracket, eg. "< QS77 ".
{ } Material to be deleted.
Italicized Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

FG-TG01

{Then Tuor's heart was heavy and Voronwe wept and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea.} But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would.

In the later story, the urging of Ulmo through Tuor that Turgon prepare an assault on Angband is gone, as should be Tuor's weeping.

FG-TG02

{and she was} Idril Celebrindal, the daughter of the king.

Idril has already appeared in the story.

FG-TG03

{and how there had been divided counsels in that matter, yet pity for the enthralled Noldoli had prevailed in the end to its making}

There is no later mention of such divided counsel, and the enthralled Noldor motif was later significantly downplayed.

FG-TG04

{and many murmured and would fain have backed him into battle with the Orcs, seeing that the speeches of those two, Tuor and Turgon, before the palace were known to many; but this matter went not further for reverence of Turgon, and because at this time in Tuor's heart the thought of the words of Ulmo seemed to have grown dim and far off.}

Same reason as in TG-01.

FG-TG05

Great love too had Idril for Tuor, and the strands of her fate were woven with his even from that day when first she gazed upon him {from a high window} as he stood a way-worn suppliant . . .

According to TO, Idril is in the king's chamber when Tuor arrives, not at a high window.

FG-TG06

{Thus was first wed a child of Men with a daughter of Elfinesse, nor was Tuor the last}

Beren and Luthien.

FG-TG07

{and that tale of Isfin and Eol may not here be told}

This will have been told earlier.

FG-TG08

{Less fair was he than most of this goodly folk, swart and of none too kindly mood, so that he won small love, and whispers there were that he had Orc's blood in his veins, but I know not how this could be true.}

I think this should be deleted, though we are without any direct contradiction of it. There is no later indication that Maeglin was 'swart', and certainly there were not rumours that he had Orc's blood!

FG-TG09

{Now he had bid . . . often with the king for the hand of Idril, yet Turgon finding her very loth had as often said nay, for him seemed Meglin's suit was caused as much by the desire of standing in high power beside the royal throne as by love of that most fair maid.}<QS77And {Maeglin's} his secret hatred grew ever greater, for he esired above all things to possess {her} Idril, the only heir of the King of Gondolin.>

FG-TG10

{Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}

The etymology of 'Earendil' is obviously not now a secret.

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

GANDALF@

01-13-2002, 10:21 PM

if it happens I'm in

jallanite

01-16-2002, 09:40 PM

I was not offended at all, Lindil, by your post about the difficulties, as I feel some of the same frustrations.

Yet at the time I was also getting somewhat fatigued with these matters, and so took a breather which turned out to be longer than I expected.

Sometimes such a breather lets obviously right answers emerge from the confusion. In these cases I don't think so, other than that I've increased possible treatments of the Balrogs and have posted my newer ideas in the Balrog thread.

I think I am really coming to hate Balrogs!

Aiwendil, you are quite welcome to go ahead with the missing Gondolin section if you wish.

One disappointment for me with this project is the small number of people willing to actually do the work, rather than simply criticize. Those people are needed also, desperately, and since this is supposedly a project being done for the fun of it there is no reason why anyone should be here from any sense of duty.

But I would like to see more involved as I'm not sure general voters will understand the full issues of votes or care.

If I were not so fully involved myself I certainly wouldn't care, and probably would not want to understand fully!

Aiwendil

01-17-2002, 10:28 AM

I hear you! Indeed, it seems that though many are willing or eager to help, few really know where to start or how to help. Probably we are somewhat restricted simply by the number of people that have read or have access to all twelve HoMe books. Frankly, I'm surprised that the Balrog discussion hasn't had a larger number of participants - I've seen it discussed on other boards, but apparently few are willing to venture into this barrow.

Well for myself, I'm content to allow the project to creep along as it is. I imagine that we'll have a good deal less trouble with most of the other sections (aside from the dreaded Ruin of Doriath).

I now wonder about the validity of a poll. It would of course be best if we could simply reach a concensus (which has actually happened with certain small questions.)

lindil

01-25-2002, 10:07 AM

Aiwendil, I just came across a section in WotJ which may prove useful in the 'transition 'section' posted July 23, 01-

It is rather long and I am [blissfully ]at a public terminal so have no easy way of getting it up - so I will just give the reference.
WotJ p.200 top
- It is I suppose the last description of Gondolin written and may be of use - It may all be in the QS77 but it seems richer than I recall.

lindil

lindil

10-09-2002, 07:10 AM

just upping the relevant threads for the project.

now closed please see [for more or less the continuation ]:
'Revised Fall of Gondolin'
and it's spin off threads.

Aiwendil

02-07-2013, 09:34 PM

I'm re-opening this thread (closed in 2002!) for discussion of revisions to the text of this chapter.

First of all, I should say that I half suspect that I'm working from an old copy of the text, as it seems to have a lot of errors in it. If I am, that should become clear from what follows. These notes were made a few years ago, but I've glanced over them again and reminded myself what the various issues were.

• Horns of Ulmo - I thought this was dropped when the revisions to the opening were deemed too risky. (Revised Fall of Gondolin part 5 thread). In any case, I am against its inclusion in its current form, with the transition accomplished by:

FG-HY-02 Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave −
{It was in}[In] the Land of Willows {that}[I recall that] once {Ylmir}[Ulmo] came at eve.
It seems altogether too sudden and unrelated to what has gone before. (I do actually think it would be nice to include the poem, but I seem to recall that others felt it should be omitted).

• A moot point if we drop the poem, but for line 63 it appears that the correction of ‘Gods’ to ‘Lords’ has been made, something I think we simply missed the first time around. However, I think a better emendation would be:

When the world reeled in the tumult as the FG-HY-02.7 {Great Gods}[Valar] tore the Earth

(I do actually like this poem quite a bit, and all else being equal, I would like to include it, if we can convince ourselves that the necessary revisions are justified).

• FG-B-04:
Fearful too they were for that FG-B-04 {slaughter}[tremendous fight that] Rog had done amid the Balrogs, because of those demons they had great courage and confidence of heart.

As far as I can tell at the last discussion of this (Balrogs thread, page 2) we had decided on:

Fearful too they were for that slaughter Rog had done amid the Balrogs, because of those demons they had great courage and confidence of heart.

. . . with the reasoning that we don’t specify whether Rog is slaughtering Balrogs, one Balrog, or something else merely ‘amid’ the Balrogs. In any case we cannot use ‘tremendous fight that’.

• Then said Rog in a great voice: ‘Who now shall fear the Balrogs for all their terror? See before us the accursed ones who for {ages}[centuries] have tormented the children of the {Noldoli}[Noldor], and who now set a fire at our backs with their shooting.

This one wasn’t discussed, though it is worth thinking about. But in the Lost Tales, wasn’t the time-frame for the Noldor in Beleriand actually shorter than in the later versions? In which case, if ‘ages’ was acceptable there, it ought to be acceptable here.

• FG-C-24
FG-C-24 {Now the folk that had passed into the Eagles' Cleft and who saw the fall of Glorfindel had been nigh eight hundreds − a large wayfaring, yet was it a sad remnant of so fair and numerous a city.} But they who arose from the grasses of the Land of Willows {in years after} and fared away to sea, {when spring set celandine in the meads and they had held sad festival in memorial of Glorfindel,} these numbered but three hundreds and a score of men and man-children, and two hundreds and three score of women and maid-children.’

Findegil points out that the dwindling from 800 to 580 may depend on the longer period of their wandering found in the Lost Tales. But is it really not possible that a fair portion of the company (many of whom were already wounded) died in the shorter period of wandering in the dangerous lands north of the Crissaegrim?

• FG-T-23: I think this can be made to read better by moving one of our additions slightly:

FG-T-23 Then Turgon [K]ing of Gondolin[,] <TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol[,]> robed in white with a belt of gold, and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, <TO {with a}[and at his side] a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath[,]> stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto.

• FG-T-24: I am no longer convinced that Ulmo's counsel of attack on Angband was dropped. It’s still present in Q30, which is the latest account of Tuor's meeting with Turgon that we have. I can find no contradiction with it in the later 'Tuor' or anywhere else. And consider the late Tale of Years:

Ulmo sends a last warning to Gondolin, which now alone is left; but Turgon will have no alliance with any after the kinslaying of Doriath.

Now, this last warning of Ulmo is undoubtedly a projected change that we cannot implement, but the suggestion is that Ulmo recommends (and has been recommending) an ‘alliance’, which suggests that the earlier version of his counsel was retained.

Also here: ‘makest’ is a mistake for ‘makes’, but actually I don’t think this should be changed from ‘maketh’ at all.

• FG-D-02: I thought that we had decided not to make these changes (see the "Mechanical Dragons" thread, where, just to make things maximally confusing, this is FG-D-01). In any case, I am still against them.

• FG-B-01: and iron and stone melted before them and became as water and {upon}[with] them {rode}[moved the] Balrogs FG-B-01 {in hundreds}

The 'rode' > 'moved the' appears to have been a silent normalization that was not discussed. But it is awkwardly phrased; better would be:

and iron and stone melted before them and became as water and {upon}[with] them {rode}[went] Balrogs FG-B-01 {in hundreds}

• FG-D-04: Here again are stylistic changes regarding mechanical dragons that I thought we had dropped.

• ‘Legolas Greenleaf’ changed to ‘Laegolas’. Why drop the ‘Greenleaf’?

• FG-D-29: {fire drakes}[drakes of fire]

The purpose of this change escapes me completely. Fire drakes are drakes of fire. This should definitely be dropped.

• FG-C-03:
‘Great is the fall of the Hidden Rock’ - I thought we had decided against using this.

• FG-C-25: This sentence is very awkward with the names of the cities removed. Perhaps we should delete the sentence entirely.

• Last sentence: ‘Isle of Sirion’ - does not that now suggest Tol Sirion? Perhaps change it to ‘at the mouths of Sirion’.

Findegil

02-08-2013, 10:42 AM

Posted by Aiwendil:First of all, I should say that I half suspect that I'm working from an old copy of the text, as it seems to have a lot of errors in it. If I am, that should become clear from what follows.I did find all quotations you made exactly in the same way in my most recent document, so I think you are working from the right text. If with errors you are speaking of typos it could be that some of them were corrected either silently by myself or by Meadhros in post #49 in the Thread: * * Revised Fall of Gondolin pt.5 -- >end [the remaining sections] * *. Anyway looking into the privat forum, I did't find a text of this chapter posted by me. It is given section wise by Meadhros, but in an rather outdated version. And we have Antoine's allerts of texts and there later removal. I will post a actual version, once we are finished with our discussion here.

By the way: In the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text' some of your points are already mentioned by Tar-Elenion, Maedhros, yourself, Aiwendil and me. I think that your text must be one provide by me, because of the {ages}[centuries] issue. So I have to say, it might be that I missed some points of that hidden discussion in the private forum while prepaering the text. I will go through them now and see what is not yet corrected.

FG-C-22 The Horns of Ulmo:
In your version as in my one the poem stands as it was left behind after the discussion stoped. But it seems I (or Antione, if he made the final text) didn't take it out as was the last result of the discussion.
Anyhow I have a fiant rememberens of farther discussions on the poem, but I can't find them. In addition it seems to me that all three of us would have liked to include the poem. We just couldn't find a solution for the neccessary switch from present in Nan-Thathren to the past at Neverast. Probably we should try again.

FG-HY-02.1: Agreed.

Fg-B-04: The reason I remember for this change was that 'slaughter Rog had done amid the Balrogs' suggeste heavily that Rog and his men killed Balrogs. But techincaly your point is right and I am willing to leave that change out.

{ages}[centuries]: This is my change, not discussed but given in the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text'. Yes we are probably correcting an internal error of the LT-text here. And since it is a charachter speaking not the external author we might let this stand as it is. Even so the reverenc to 'children of the Noldor' is now a bit misleading since Rog must mean the Elves of the second tribe captured before the fall of Utumno, which are technical speaking are no Noldor.

FG-C-24: I asked the same question with out any answer, but didn't put it right in the text as it seems. I correct it now.

FG-T-23: Agreed

FG-T-24: You are storming open doors! I was never confinced that the counsel of Ulmo was changed. I prupose we take up some parts of the Q30 passage and hold more of the LT version as well:FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Morgoth], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Morgoth] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Morgoth]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of {Melko}[Morgoth], and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Morgoth], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’ <QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea. But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01 <GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>.
Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin. FG-TG-01.5 <Sil77
But in the warning of Ulmo Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood.

>Of all Tuor's deeds among ...

FG-D-02: Agreed.

FG-B-01: Agreed.

FG-D-04, FG-D-29: The first was a change that I proposed. Both were for the sake of clearity. I repeat two of my comments from the 'Mechanical Monsters Thread':But may be we must prepare the read for the task we impose on him (to interpret the dragon types while reading). In the creation scene there is no mention of the later "name" "dragons of fire", with which they were mostly addressed in the text, but that could be easily amended:The very faint distinguish between type 3 [streams of fire] and type 4 [animal dragons] that I could find was that I interpreted any "fire dragon", "fire-dragon", "fire drake" and "fire-drake" as type 4. and any serpents/dragon/stream or what ever of fire/flame as type 3.FG-D-04 you did not gainsay back then when we discussed the matter and FG-D-29 did even find your hestatingly given support.Fire drakes are drakes of fire. That is not true, if you look back at the discussion. At least FG-D-29 is needed, in my oppinion.

'{Legolas}[Laegols] Greenleaf' is okay for me.

FG-C-03: I couldn't find any discussion of this save the posting #1 of Lindil in the thread '* * Revised Fall of Gondolin pt.5 -- >end [the remaining sections] * *' (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=4434). In this he gives to options. But none of them are very convincing for me. The text as it stand is his option 1. But it is based on his fan-fiction. Option 2 would read:Then said the king: FG-C-03 KO 'Great is the fall of Gondolin'{, and men shuddered, for such were the words of Annon the prophet of old}; but Tuor speaking wildly ...I would amend this to:Then said the king: FG-C-03 KO 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', and men shuddered, for such were the words of {Annon the prophet of old}<Sil77 the Prophecy of the North>; but Tuor speaking wildly ...

FG-C-26, last sentence: Yes, 'Isle of Sirion' does suggest Tol Sirion in the groge of Sirion far to the north. But 'mouth of Sirion' does not transport the full meaning. What about: 'Ilse <editorial addition in the delta of> Sirion' or we could use 'grows at the delta of Sirion' it would tarnsport the clear meaning of 'Ilse' in TE.

Respectfully
Findegil

gondowe

02-09-2013, 05:27 AM

With this text (the first I worked), I have to strengthen remembering my decisions at work, so I can be mistaken, but to put my opinions on the table, I started with this:

FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Morgoth], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Morgoth] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>

I think that the LT text must be eliminated because Ulmo always knew where Gondolin was, he show the valley to Turgon.

And doubt the Doom of Mandos the only thing the Noldor could do was to fly, not go to war against Morgoth.

Remembering the words Ulmo have been speech Turgon in Vinyamar '...that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.'

Greetings

Findegil

02-10-2013, 04:41 PM

Posted by Gondowe:I think that the LT text must be eliminated because Ulmo always knew where Gondolin was, he show the valley to Turgon.You are right and I probably over did it. We must at least edit it a bit more.

We should also look back what Ulmo said to Tour at Vinyamar:‘Then I will set words in thy mouth to say unto Turgon,’ said Ulmo. ‘But first I will teach thee, and some things thou shall hear which no Man else hath heard, nay, not even the mighty among the Eldar.’ And Ulmo spoke to Tuor of Valinor and its darkening, and the Exile of the Noldor, and the Doom of Mandos, and the hiding of the Blessed Realm. ‘But behold!’ said he, ‘in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World. Yet Doom is strong, and the shadow of the Enemy lengthens; and I am diminished, until in Middle-earth I am become now no more than a secret whisper. The waters that run westward wither, and their springs are poisoned, and my power withdraws from the land; for Elves and Men grow blind and deaf to me because of the might of Melkor. And now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfilment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they build shall crumble. The last hope alone is left, the hope that they have not looked for and have not prepared. And that hope lieth in thee; for so I have chosen.’
‘Then shall Turgon not stand against Morgoth, as all the Eldar yet hope?’ said Tuor. ‘And what wouldst thou of me, Lord, if I come now to Turgon? For though I am indeed willing to do as my father and stand by that king in his need, yet of little avail shall I be, a mortal man alone, among so many and so valiant of the High Folk of the West.‘
‘If I choose to send thee, Tuor son of Huor, then believe not that thy one sword is not worth the sending. For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which they had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness.’
And as Ulmo said these things the mutter of the storm rose to a great cry, and the wind mounted, and the sky grew black; and the mantle of the Lord of Waters streamed out like a flying cloud. ‘Go now,’ said Ulmo, ‘lest the Sea devour thee! For Ossë obeys the will of Mandos, and he is wroth, being a servant of the Doom.’
‘As thou commandest,’ said Tuor. ‘But if I escape the Doom, what words shall I say unto Turgon?’
‘If thou come to him,’ answered Ulmo, ‘then the words shall arise in thy mind, and thy mouth shall speak as I would. Speak and fear not! And thereafter do as thy heart and valour lead thee. Hold fast to my mantle, for thus shalt thou be guarded. And I will send one to thee out of the wrath of Ossë, and thus shalt thou be guided: yea, the last mariner of the last ship that shall seek into the West until the rising of the Star. Go now back to the land!’It seems to me that we should replace Melko not be Morgoth in the message of Ulmo.

Respectfull
Findegil

Aiwendil

02-10-2013, 06:20 PM

By the way: In the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text' some of your points are already mentioned by Tar-Elenion, Maedhros, yourself, Aiwendil and me.

I had forgotten about that thread.

FG-C-22: Yes, it seems that we could not come up with a suitable transition and decided that we must drop the poem. By preference was to make the transition in line 5 by having Tuor compare the sound of the reeds to the sound of the waves in Nevrast, but my line was not so good. Findegil thought a transition in line 6 more promising, but I found those proposals clunky.

Here's another stab at a line 5 transition:

{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green ?
I {was} [sit] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [hits] the meads{,}[;]
{Inland}[They echo] musics {subtly} magic that {those} [the] {reeds} [waves] alone {could} [can] weave ?}
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.

Or perhaps better is:
{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green ?
I {was} [sit] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [hits] the meads{,}[;]
{Inland}[They echo] musics subtly magic that {those reeds} [wind and waves] {alone} {could} [can] weave ?}
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.

I must say, though, that my line 'as the sunset hits the meads' doesn't look too good to me anymore (I can accept a sunset 'touching' something, but 'hitting' is taking it too far, I think). What about 'lights the meads'?

{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green ?
I {was} [sit] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [lights] the meads{,}[;]
{Inland}[They echo] musics subtly magic that {those reeds} [wind and waves] {alone} {could} [can] weave ?}
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.

{ages}[centuries]: Yes, I suppose you may be right - this change is fine.

FG-T-24: And doubt the Doom of Mandos the only thing the Noldor could do was to fly, not go to war against Morgoth.

Remembering the words Ulmo have been speech Turgon in Vinyamar '...that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.'

It sounds like you prefer to remove the counsel that they make alliances and go to war. But the text you posted retains it. Which is your actual preference?

Whether the counsel of war really contradicts the Prophecy of the North, and Ulmo's words to Turgon in Vinyamar, is worth some thought. But how then does one explain the Tale of Years entry, which, it seems to me, quite clearly implies that Ulmo's counsel involves making alliances with other Elves and Men?

I have reviewed the Prophecy of the North again and can find nothing that clearly rules out the possibility of Men and Elves together defeating Morgoth. Nor, I think, do Ulmo's words rule it out - he is saying that the surest way to defeat Morgoth is with the aid of the Valar, but he is not saying that it is the only way.

I think the text proposed by Gondowe is our best option.

It seems to me that we should replace Melko not be Morgoth in the message of Ulmo.

Do you mean that you would prefer:
for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron.

I can't recall whether we have any examples of the Valar referring to him as 'Morgoth'. But unless we can find some, using 'Melkor' is probably safer.

FG-D-02, -29: It seems that our discussion of this in the 'Mechanical Monsters' thread was not as conclusive as I remembered. I thought we had decided against making any changes for the sake of clarity, but I see now that that was not clearly agreed.

I'm afraid I still don't see the necessity of making these changes. The 'fire-dragon' vs. 'dragon of fire' distinction seems too artificial to me, and more importantly, I don't think the proposed changes have the desired effect of making things any clearer for the reader. If I approach this from the point of view of someone not privy to our discussions, I don't think it would even cross my mind that 'fire-drake' consistently meant something different from 'drake of fire'.

FG-C-03: There was some discussion of this on the first page of this thread, but other than that and the post you mentioned, I cannot find anything.

But my opinion on this is unchanged. I find it incredible that after the Prophecy of the North declares 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', Turgon would blithely go ahead and name their city Gondolin. Remember, in the Lost Tales, Turgon is not yet born when the prophecy is made, and it can more plausibly be supposed that he was unaware of it. Indeed, I would not be surprised if it was for this reason that later accounts of the prophecy omit any mention of Gondolin. So I think it has to be:

Then said the king: FG-C-03 'Great is the fall of Gondolin'{, and men shuddered, for such were the words of Annon the prophet of old}; but Tuor speaking wildly ...

FG-C-26: I don't think I understand why you find 'delta of Sirion' preferrable to 'mouth of Sirion' - to me, they seem synonymous. But we could make it 'the isle at the mouth of Sirion'. (I cannot remember whether Tolkien ever uses the term 'delta' with respect to a river, which is why I preferred 'mouth').

Also, there is some historical present here - I believe it has been our policy to change this to past. So I would suggest:

Yet now those exiles of Gondolin dwelt at the mouth of Sirion by the waves of the Great Sea FG-C-26 <Q30, and joined their folk to the slender company of Elwing daughter of Dior, that had fled thither little while before>. There they {take}[took] the name of {Lothlim}[Lothrim], the people of the flower, for {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] {is}[was] a name too sore to their hearts; and fair among the {Lothlim}[Lothrim] {Eärendel}[Eärendil] {grows}[grew] in <TE-N(i) the Isle of Sirion in> the <TE-N(i) snow-white stone> house of his father, and the great tale of Tuor is come to its waning.'

gondowe

02-11-2013, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Aiwendil
It sounds like you prefer to remove the counsel that they make alliances and go to war. But the text you posted retains it. Which is your actual preference?
Whether the counsel of war really contradicts the Prophecy of the North, and Ulmo's words to Turgon in Vinyamar, is worth some thought. But how then does one explain the Tale of Years entry, which, it seems to me, quite clearly implies that Ulmo's counsel involves making alliances with other Elves and Men?
I have reviewed the Prophecy of the North again and can find nothing that clearly rules out the possibility of Men and Elves together defeating Morgoth. Nor, I think, do Ulmo's words rule it out - he is saying that the surest way to defeat Morgoth is with the aid of the Valar, but he is not saying that it is the only way.
I think the text proposed by Gondowe is our best option.
It was not a proposal, only quoted the whole text of Findegil, sorry.
Originally posted by Aiwendil
But my opinion on this is unchanged. I find it incredible that after the Prophecy of the North declares 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', Turgon would blithely go ahead and name their city Gondolin. Remember, in the Lost Tales, Turgon is not yet born when the prophecy is made, and it can more plausibly be supposed that he was unaware of it. Indeed, I would not be surprised if it was for this reason that later accounts of the prophecy omit any mention of Gondolin.
Well, in this whole case (joining the two quotes), it can be considered several things. First of all the Prophecy of the North; that one only tells of the Doom of the Noldor, very bad. So we must combine the Prophecy and the words of Ulmo.
But we must consider one thing before; in the Prophecy I introduced the sentence “'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed<LT and great {is} [will be] the fall of Gondolin>; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also.”
If I´m right, you or only Findegil did more or less the same.
If we accept to include it, it can be remembered in the FoG. So it can be a matter of discussion to do or not. I like to include it because it sounds me more dramatical, is like an arc between the Doom and its fulfillment.
If Turgon was not born in LT, in my opinion doesn`t matter because some Noldor of Gondolin could have been and in fact were in Valinor and could have tell Turgon not to name the city Gondolin.
In other way, in my opinion, the will of Ulmo always was (in the last conception of the professor, and due to that fulfillment) to carry Tour to Gondolin to bring into the world Eärendil, the only being, Half Elf, Half Man, designated with the help of the Silmaril (we can think that Ulmo knew very much due to his part in the Music) to come to Valinor and beg for pardon and help to the Valar. So Turgon only would fly to the mouths of Sirion or Tol Sirion and wait the coming of the Host of West and then go to war against Angband, not before. ”But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it”.
For that reason, in my opinion, the sentence in ToY could be ambiguous, it could be that Turgon want no alliance with the sons of Fëanor in any case. Or could be an omission of the professor.
What do you think?

Originally posted by Aiwendil
I can't recall whether we have any examples of the Valar referring to him as 'Morgoth'. But unless we can find some, using 'Melkor' is probably safer.

I think Ulmo could name him Morgoth (Black Enemy, he named him Enemy previously). It can be a solidarity with Elves and Men.

Greetings

Findegil

02-11-2013, 04:59 PM

About the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text': Aiwendil, your are a moderator of this forum. Since there is nothing in that thread that would merrit its hiding in privat forum, can you move to it this forum?

FG-C-22: Aiwendil your last proposal seems okay to me. But I wonder why you used 'sit' in line 2? I thought that we had agreed on 'sing', because any other verb would mean to invent a fact in Middle-earth.

FG-T-24: Gondowe, as far as I know we did not take up the sentence 'Great is the fall of Gondolin' into words reported in our text of the prophecy of the north. This does of course not mean that they were not included in the actual words, since the passage 'many woes it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them' has room enough.

When Ulmo speaks to Tuor at Vinyamar he uses Melkor in all cases, therefore I think Tuor should use the name Melkor, while he spoke the message of Ulmo.

What shades some doubts on Ulmo asking Turgon to go against Angband is this unanswered question of Tuor:‘Then shall Turgon not stand against Morgoth, as all the Eldar yet hope?’ said Tuor.Anyhow, I think the passage should read thus:FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your{ dwelling and your hill of} vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’ <QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
FG-D-02, -04 & -29: Well, I can in the end live without all these changes. So I would much prefer to have FG-D-29. But thinking about it again, we also here from Glaurung and Smaug that they were exhausted after battles and retreated to sleep.

FG-C-03: Why should the men not shudder at the pronaunciation of the King of Gondolin that their city is lost? What about:Then said the king: FG-C-03 KO 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', and men shuddered{, for such were the words of Annon the prophet of old}; but Tuor speaking wildly ...By the way, Aiwendil, do you remember what KO did mean?

FG-C-26: Posted by Aiwendil:I cannot remember whether Tolkien ever uses the term 'delta' with respect to a river, which is why I preferred 'mouth'.True. I agree to take 'the isle at the mouth of Sirion'. I also agree to the change the historical present.

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil

02-11-2013, 05:15 PM

FG-T-24: Looking back through old threads, I realized that I had completely forgotten about the discussion of this point in this thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=4471). It seems that there, Maedhros and I converged on the view that Ulmo's counsel of war was likely not rejected, but that it would be safer not to include it; Findegil meanwhile favoured keeping it. In that thread, I wrote:

But by choosing not to put this element back in, we are not simply rejecting it. I think that our account could be taken as simply omitting mention of the first part of Ulmo's counsel. This seems a safer course than putting in a slightly dubious bit. However, if the general opinion is that our version as it stands does not leave room for that interpretation, then I think a very good case could be made for putting in Ulmo's first piece of advice.

But looking at the text now, I find it harder to imagine that Tuor's message included counsel of war that is simply not mentioned.

In other way, in my opinion, the will of Ulmo always was (in the last conception of the professor, and due to that fulfillment) to carry Tour to Gondolin to bring into the world Eärendil, the only being, Half Elf, Half Man, designated with the help of the Silmaril (we can think that Ulmo knew very much due to his part in the Music) to come to Valinor and beg for pardon and help to the Valar.

That would seem a reasonable interpretation. But is there textual evidence that this was Ulmo's sole hope and his only reason for guiding Tuor to Gondolin? Might he not have foreseen two possible ways of overcoming Morgoth? He might even have correctly foreseen that Turgon would refuse to go to war and thus that Earendil would in fact turn out to be the only hope.

So Turgon only would fly to the mouths of Sirion or Tol Sirion and wait the coming of the Host of West and then go to war against Angband, not before. ”But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it”.
For that reason, in my opinion, the sentence in ToY could be ambiguous, it could be that Turgon want no alliance with the sons of Fëanor in any case.

That's an interesting line of reasoning, but I must say, it still seems to me very tortured to read the ToY entry in such a way. If the advice is that Turgon take his people down to the mouths of Sirion and then join with the host of the Valar when they arrive, why would he object to such an alliance? In that case, what would the kin-slaying have to do with anything? Surely going down to the mouths of the Sirion would not require an alliance with the sons of Feanor. If Ulmo's last warning only urged Turgon to go to the mouths of Sirion, I simply can't see why his refusal to follow it should have to do with his objection to an 'alliance'.

The only concrete piece of evidence that I can see against the counsel of war is this passage from GA:

There Tuor was brought before King Turgon, and spake the words that Ulmo had set in his mouth, bidding him depart and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down to the sea.

But of course, this is a very compressed account.

So, I am (as I tend to be) ambivalent about this. I'm also hesitant to revoke a decision we made back when we had a greater number of active contributors. I'll think about it.

Findegil

02-12-2013, 03:09 AM

MY impresion was always that Ulmo had hopped that he would be able to bring the Valar to assist the fight in Middle-earth when Turgon would build the allaince that Ulmo suggested. With the plans he suggests (bring men out of the east, froming an allaince with the Feanorians) this looks like an all-in move for the people of middle-earth. Thus the Valar would be in the situation either to see the annihilation of the free people of Middle-earth or go out and help them against Morogoth. A few years later they rescue the free people of Middle-earth in a similar situation, just that the poeple of Middle-earth have become so week that the impuls of war must come from the Valar.

Respectfully
Findegil

gondowe

02-12-2013, 10:04 AM

Aiwendil you are right thinking that it would be better that many members could opine in these matters, because it is one of these that with no clear evidence of text written by the professor can be understood in several ways. It’s in some ways a matter of taste and personal understanding.
Originally posted by Aiwendil
But is there textual evidence that this was Ulmo's sole hope and his only reason for guiding Tuor to Gondolin? Might he not have foreseen two possible ways of overcoming Morgoth? He might even have correctly foreseen that Turgon would refuse to go to war and thus that Earendil would in fact turn out to be the only hope.

I have not time to look for but I think that there’s not textual evidence, apart for the mention of the Grey Annals that I have no repaired (remembered) in, and for me is a good one in the way of going against the counsel of war, in spite of its compression.
Originally posted by Aiwendil
If the advice is that Turgon take his people down to the mouths of Sirion and then join with the host of the Valar when they arrive, why would he object to such an alliance? In that case, what would the kin-slaying have to do with anything? Surely going down to the mouths of the Sirion would not require an alliance with the sons of Feanor. If Ulmo's last warning only urged Turgon to go to the mouths of Sirion, I simply can't see why his refusal to follow it should have to do with his objection to an 'alliance'.
The second kin-slaying had taken place and there had no solution, and a hate of Turgon and every elf towards Fëanor house is dramatical in any case. Perhaps there would be no third kin-slaying, but insisting, there are only suppositions with no textual evidence.

Greetings

Findegil

02-13-2013, 11:10 AM

Going through the text, to bring the insert to the fromat of the editing we have right now I found a palce were I think we should further elaborate the text:
FG-TG-11.5 & FG-TG-12: As it stand now the text reads:In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 <editorial addition based on Shibboleth and she named him Ardamírë, but his father named him> {and he was called} Eärendil <editorial addition and by this name he was know ever after>. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}The insert is based on The Shibboleth of Feanor, so it is not found their word by word (rules were take less striked in these old days). As the original passage does give an explaination of the name (even so that only says the name is not explainable), I think we should add more form The Shibboleth:In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 and he was called Eärendil. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}<Shibboleth Eärendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel daughter of King Elu Thingol. His names were, however, given in Quenya; for Turgon after his foundation of the secret city of Gondolin had re-established Quenya as the daily speech of his household. Eärendil had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë. In this case both names were 'prophetic'. Tuor in his long journey by the west shores of Beleriand, after his escape from captivity, had been visited by the great Vala Ulmo in person, and Ulmo had directed him to seek for Gondolin, foretelling that if he found it he would there beget a son ever afterwards renowned as a mariner. Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Noldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'. More purely prophetic was the name Ardamírë 'Jewel of the World'; for {Itarildë} could not foresee in her waking mind the strange fate {that brought at last the Silmaril into the possession }of Eärendil{, and enabled his ship to pass through all the shadows and perils by which Aman was at that time defended from any approach from Middle-earth}. These names were not given Sindarin forms in legend[Footnote: Forms affected by Sindarin in manuscripts, such as [i]Aerendil, Aerennel, etc. were casual and accidental.], though Sindarin writers sometimes explained that they meant mír n'{Arðon}[Ardhon] and Seron Aearon.>

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil

02-13-2013, 01:07 PM

About the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text': Aiwendil, your are a moderator of this forum. Since there is nothing in that thread that would merrit its hiding in privat forum, can you move to it this forum?

Good idea. I've just moved it to the public forum (here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10692)).

FG-C-22: Aiwendil your last proposal seems okay to me. But I wonder why you used 'sit' in line 2? I thought that we had agreed on 'sing', because any other verb would mean to invent a fact in Middle-earth.

I had forgotten about that. You are right that using 'sit' amounts to inventing a fact. But 'sing' doesn't sound right to me. What about just using 'am'? I think that I had argued against this before, but when I look at it now, it doesn't seem too bad:

{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green
I {was} [am] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [lights] the meads{,}[;]
{Inland}[They echo] musics subtly magic that {those reeds} [wind and waves] {alone could} [can] weave -
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.

(By the way, sorry about the strange question marks that somehow ended up in this passage in my earlier post.)

When Ulmo speaks to Tuor at Vinyamar he uses Melkor in all cases, therefore I think Tuor should use the name Melkor, while he spoke the message of Ulmo.

Good observation. I think you are right.

FG-D-04, -29: The thing is that I have a hard time seeing the 'fire-drake' vs. 'drake of fire' distinction as anything but contrived. But these are, after all, small changes, so if you really think them needed, I can live with them.

FG-C-03: Why should the men not shudder at the pronaunciation of the King of Gondolin that their city is lost?

The thinking, I suppose, was that in the original, they shuddered specifically because they realized that this was foretold in the Prophecy of the North. But we may have been overzealous; certainly the fact that their city is lost is reason enough to shudder. So I think we can take your last suggestion.

By the way, Aiwendil, do you remember what KO did mean?

You know, I'm not sure. I thought it was Lindil's notation that a change had been rejected ('knocked out', a boxing term in English), but in this case that's clearly not what was meant.

Findegil

02-13-2013, 04:07 PM

FG-C-22:Here in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green −
I am fingering my harp-strings, for a wind has crept unseen
And is speaking in tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
Are whispering reedy whispers as the sunset lights the meads;
They echo musics subtly magic that wind and waves weave − 5
It was in the Land of Nevrats that once Ulmo came at eve.That is okay for me.

FG-D-04, -29: Okay, for me these changes seem important. So we will keep them. But reading the passage again, I think we leave FG-D-17:... but even as Tuor comes nigh driving the Orcs, one of those brazen snakes heaves against the western wall and a great mass of it shakes and falls, and behind comes a creature of fire and Balrogs FG-B-05 {upon}[with] it. ...
...
But so it is that few cannot fight always against the many, and Ecthelion's left arm got a sore rent from a whip of the Balrog’s and his shield fell to earth FG-D-17 { even as that dragon of fire drew nigh amid the ruin of the walls}.Then Ecthelion must lean on Tuor, and Tuor might not leave him, though the very feet of FG-D-18 the trampling beast were upon them, and they were like to be overborne: but Tuor hewed at a foot of the creature so that flame spouted forth, and that serpent screamed, lashing with its tail; and many of both Orcs and {Noldoli}[Noldor] got their death therefrom.This was a change for clarity, as 2 §§ earlier there were two dragons mention a type 2 (mechanical bronze dragon) and a type 3 (serpant of fire). Then next we have the approach of the type 3. And after that he have Tuor hewing the foot of a dragon, which by the simple logic that the serpents of fire (type 3) have no feet must be the type 2. We did skip the mention of the type 2, but I think that is unneccessary. If we can sort this out, our readers can do the same. We should simply leave the passage as it stood in the original.

FG-C-03 KO: Okay, as no body knows, I will simply delet the KO.

Respectfully
Findegil

gondowe

02-15-2013, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Findegil
When Ulmo speaks to Tuor at Vinyamar he uses Melkor in all cases, therefore I think Tuor should use the name Melkor, while he spoke the message of Ulmo.
Yes you are right, I think is an error of the Spanish edition, i don't know why.

About the insert of The Shibboleth you posted above, in my opinion the better is as it was before or something like:

In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 and he was called Eärendil. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}<Shibboleth {Eärendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel daughter of King Elu Thingol. His names were, however, given in Quenya; for Turgon after his foundation of the secret city of Gondolin had re-established Quenya as the daily speech of his household. Eärendil} He had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë, (taken from below) 'Jewel of the World'. In this case both names were 'prophetic'. {Tuor in his long journey by the west shores of Beleriand, after his escape from captivity, had been visited by the great Vala Ulmo in person, and Ulmo had directed him to seek for Gondolin, foretelling that if he found it he would there beget a son ever afterwards renowned as a mariner. Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Noldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'. More purely prophetic was the name Ardamírë 'Jewel of the World'; for Itarildë could not foresee in her waking mind the strange fate that brought at last the Silmaril into the possession of Eärendil, and enabled his ship to pass through all the shadows and perils by which Aman was at that time defended from any approach from Middle-earth. These names were not given Sindarin forms in legend[Footnote: Forms affected by Sindarin in manuscripts, such as Aerendil, Aerennel, etc. were casual and accidental.], though Sindarin writers sometimes explained that they meant mír n'Arðon and Seron Aearon.}>

the insertion of the mayor text sounds very artificial and breaks the narration, repeating also the journey of Tuor. It would be better place it in an appendix or in an Index.

Greetings

Aiwendil

02-17-2013, 10:05 AM

FG-TG-11.5, -12: I think I agree with Gondowe here: such a large chunk of text written in a very different style and in a philological (rather than a narrative) mode does too much damage. Also, beyond the fact that the description of Tuor's meeting with Ulmo is redundant, it also appears to contradict the narrative of that meeting that is given earlier in this chapter. For in the account from 'Tuor', Ulmo does not make any such prophecy concerning Tuor having a son. (And it seems incredible to me that such a prophecy would not be mentioned). So I prefer to leave this as it was before.

Findegil

02-18-2013, 06:21 AM

FG-TG-11.5, -12: Isn't the original change covered 'only' by principal 6.a) and 2 in combination?6. The actual words used by J.R.R. Tolkien or the editor or summarizer of his work may only be changed, including change by deletion or addition, when:
a) they are minimally changed to agree with statements elsewhere in the canon recognized as of greater validity or are replaced with words or phrases from later or alternate restatements of the same material for reasons of consistancy or are changed to agree with alternate phrasings used by Tolkien of the same or better validityAnd would we not disiere to have a changed covered by Principal 2 alone?2. Secondary priority is given to the latest ideas found among Tolkien's unpublished texts and letters, except ...Okay, this is put very simple. And anyway I can agree to the point that the passage reads a bit out of place. But I think nonetheless we should try to stay more close to the words of The Shibboleth then the original change does. And the original text did provide an explaination, so I think we should update this. What about:In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 and he was called Eärendil. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}<Shibboleth Eärendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel daughter of King Elu Thingol. His names were, however, given in Quenya; for Turgon after his foundation of the secret city of Gondolin had re-established Quenya as the daily speech of his household. Eärendil had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë. In this case both names were 'prophetic'. Tuor {in his long journey by the west shores of Beleriand, after his escape from captivity, had been visited by the great Vala Ulmo in person, and Ulmo had directed him to seek for Gondolin, foretelling that if he found it he would there beget a son ever afterwards renowned as a mariner. Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Noldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he} named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'. More purely prophetic was the name Ardamírë 'Jewel of the World'; for {Itarildë} could not foresee in her waking mind the strange fate {that brought at last the Silmaril into the possession }of Eärendil{, and enabled his ship to pass through all the shadows and perils by which Aman was at that time defended from any approach from Middle-earth}. These names were not given Sindarin forms in legend[Footnote: Forms affected by Sindarin in manuscripts, such as [i]Aerendil, Aerennel, etc. were casual and accidental.], though Sindarin writers sometimes explained that they meant mír n'{Arðon}[Ardhon] and Seron Aearon.>Respectfully
Findegil

gondowe

02-20-2013, 10:32 AM

This seems me better, but I still think that the linguistic/philological explanations must be removed to other places.
I agree with you that every information of any kind Tolkien left us must be preserved, but in cases like this one I prefer the Appendices or an index of names where, for example, the entry Eärendil contains such explanations.

Greetings

Aiwendil

02-20-2013, 06:31 PM

I guess I agree that the original emendation was too free, but like Gondowe, I think the explanatory/philological nature of the passage from the Shibboleth disrupts the narrative too badly.

I would suggest:

In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 and he was called Eärendil, <Shibboleth 'sea-lover'>. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}<Shibboleth He had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë,> <Shibboleth 'Jewel of the World'>

I don't know that more information than that is needed. Perhaps a footnote could indicate that these names were Quenya, because that had been re-established as the daily speech of Turgon's household (though actually we should check carefully to make sure that no later note contradicts this). But I think that since we certainly cannot tell about Earendil's becoming a star here, it makes little sense to mangle the text just to get in the point that the names were prophetic.

Findegil

02-21-2013, 05:28 AM

FG-TG-12: Okay, I agree to remove the philological passages. Maybe we should add here only the save information that both names were Quenay:In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 and he was called Eärendil, <Shibboleth 'sea-lover'>. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}<Shibboleth He had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë,> <Shibboleth 'Jewel of the World'>. <Shibboleth His names were{, however,}both given in Quenya.>

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil

02-24-2013, 09:57 PM

FG-TG-12: That looks fine, but unless you object I think it would be better to put that in a footnote, so as not to disrupt the narrative at all. That would also allow us to keep a little bit more:

In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of the Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son FG-TG-11.5 and he was called Eärendil, <Shibboleth 'sea-lover'>. FG-TG-12 {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}<Shibboleth He had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë,> <Shibboleth 'Jewel of the World'> [Footnote: <Shibboleth His names were{, however,} given in Quenya; for Turgon after his foundation of the secret city of Gondolin had re-established Quenya as the daily speech of his household.> <Shibboleth These names were not given Sindarin forms in legend [(]{F}forms affected by Sindarin in manuscripts, such as Aerendil, Aerennel, etc. were casual and accidental[)], though Sindarin writers sometimes explained that they meant mír n'{Arðon}[Ardhon] and Seron Aearon.>]

I don't think we have a standard notation for footnotes in our editing, but I trust the meaning of the above is clear. Note that I've put the bit that was actually a footnote in the Shibboleth in parentheses, rather than having a footnote within a footnote.

Findegil

02-25-2013, 08:34 AM

FG-TG-12: Very nice. Your notation for the footnote was near enough to the editing we did for the few footnotes that survived so fare.

So what is left?
As far as I could find:

- FG-C-22: Did we agreed now to keep 'Horns of Ulmo'?

- FG-T-24: How much of the biding of Ulmo is kept? The text as it stands reads:FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your{ dwelling and your hill of} vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’ <QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’
- FG-D-17: Are you okay with my idea to let the text as it was? I post only the condensed version were the dragons occure: ... but even as Tuor comes nigh driving the Orcs, one of those brazen snakes heaves against the western wall and a great mass of it shakes and falls, and behind comes a creature of fire and Balrogs FG-B-05 {upon}[with] it. Flames gust from the jaws of that FG-D-16 worm and folk wither before it, and the wings of the helm of Tuor are blackened, but he stands and gathers about him his guard and all of the Arch and Swallow he can find, whereas on his right Ecthelion rallies the men of the Fountain of the South.
Now the Orcs again take heart from the coming of the drakes, and they mingle with the Balrogs that pour about the breach, and they assail the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] grievously. ...
But so it is that few cannot fight always against the many, and Ecthelion's left arm got a sore rent from a whip of the Balrog’s and his shield fell to earth FG-D-17 even as that dragon of fire drew nigh amid the ruin of the walls. Then Ecthelion must lean on Tuor, and Tuor might not leave him, though the very feet of FG-D-18 the trampling beast were upon them, and they were like to be overborne: but Tuor hewed at a foot of the creature so that flame spouted forth, and that serpent screamed, lashing with its tail; and many of both Orcs and {Noldoli}[Noldor] got their death therefrom. Now Tuor gathered his might and lifted Ecthelion, and amid a remnant of the folk got thereunder and escaped the drake; yet dire was the killing of men that beast had wrought, and the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] were sorely shaken.What we have here is a type 2 (mechanical bronze dragon) breaking the wall and coming in together with a type 3 (creature of fire) and a Balrog. In FG-D-16 a 'worm' spat fire. From the gramitcal stand point that is the type 3 (creature of fire) just mentioned. Next both drakes are mentioned as heartening the Orcs. In FG-D-17 'that dragon of fire' must be the type 3 (creature of fire) mentioned before. But 'the very feet of the trampling beast' must be the type 2 (mechanical bronze Dragon) that had destroyed the wall, since type 3 (crature of fire) have no feet. Originaly we had supposed to eliminate FG-D-17. But I think now the text is clear enough to find out what I think is the meaning, if it is of any particular interest.

I think we found an agrement for all other points brought up in the recent discussion.

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil

02-27-2013, 08:04 PM

FG-C-22: I think we have a usable transition now, so unless gondowe (or anyone else) objects, we will keep the poem.

FG-D-17: Yes, I agree with your last suggestion to leave the text as it was.

FG-T-24: This seems to be the last difficult point. There are several questions I'm wrestling with here:

- Should GA be interpreted as a rejection of the more bellicose counsel of Ulmo?
- Can ToY be interpreted in any way other than as a confirmation that Ulmo's counsel of war was still present?
- Is it possible to make our text ambiguous, so that it neither includes the counsel of war nor contradicts it?
- Would we be justified in going against the earlier decision, made by the larger group that was active at that time?

I am leaning toward including the counsel of war, more or less in line with the text as it stands in Findegil's last post, but that last question is troubling me. Also, it seems that Gondowe still prefers to omit that part of the counsel, and I'd prefer that the decision be made by unanimous consensus rather than by a 2-1 vote.

Findegil

02-28-2013, 05:57 AM

FG-T-24: I am not going to answer your 4 questions on the spot. If I can make up my mind for answer at all, it has to be researched intensly. But I would like to give m oppinion on the last question and your wish for an 'unanimous consensus rather than by a 2-1 vote':

I agree fully that especially for a question like this were we go against a decision taken by a lager group of old have have a consensus. But when is that reached? Who is to be taken as an aktive member? Participation in the discussion is saddly limited.

My own participation in this project started with exacly such a case. I posted in the project to re-open the discussion about the mechanical dragons in FoG. I only succeded in the second attempt. But in the end the group did follow my arguments and the decision was changed. But we never made any rules for such a case.

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil

02-28-2013, 09:03 PM

That's true, but this case is somewhat different from that of the mechanical monsters. In that case, you came along and presented a new and, ultimately, convincing argument that we had been too hasty in rejecting them. But in the case of Ulmo's counsel, we are basically just re-iterating arguments that were already considered here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=4471) by you, Maedhros, and me.

As I said, though, I am rather leaning toward reversing the decision made there and including the counsel of war. I'm just being overly deliberative, as I often am.

gondowe

03-03-2013, 05:04 AM

FG-C-22 About the poems (this and whatever else like Turin or Beren) I don’t opine because I think I don’t have knowings enaugth to reelaborate an English poem but I always use the translations in my version so I’m agree.
FG-D-17 i also agree.
About the 4 questions, I think the first three are answered in my previous posts, about the fourth It’s difficult for me because I wasn’t in that days involucred.
In other way the text as is stands in my opinion must be cutted so much, but I understand it’s difficult for you and still is valid in this case the fourth question of Aiwendil.
More or less it would be:
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>,{and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice}. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the {days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your{ dwelling and your hill of} vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’}<QS77 Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish; and he bade him depart, and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down Sirion to the sea;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called}Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; {and at the coming of next year} no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’
{I think is with the new notation rules but sorry if it’s not very clear. The underlining text is deleted.}

Greetings

Findegil

03-04-2013, 11:12 AM

Notation issue: Gondowe, I am sorry but it seems that Aiwendil and I were not entirely clear in our postings at the notation thread. I only remarked that it would have been more reader friendly to have underlining as deleted text. But Aiwendil and I agreed totally that it would cause to much confusion with all the text already given in the standard notification with {...} as deleted and ... as added for grammatical or metrical reason to change these standard notation, now. So pleas stick to the old system!

FG-T-24: As your text stands Gondowe, Tuor asked Turgon to leave together the city with all Gondolindrim and remove to the sea, but Turgon answered that he would not send messengers again to Valinor. For me that does not sound right.

Coming back to Aiwendils 4 questions, which I will number for reference sack a) to d):

a)Should GA be interpreted as a rejection of the more bellicose counsel of Ulmo?The text of GA in its last version reads:And at the last by the power that Ulmo set upon them they came to the guarded gate of Gondolin. There Tuor was brought before the king, and spoke the counsel of Ulmo, bidding Turgon depart and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down to the Sea. But Turgon would not listen to this counsel; and [Meglin later >] Glindur his sister-son spoke against Tuor. But Tuor was held in honour in Gondolin, for his kindred's sake.This is very compressed. To extract from this a rejection seem very difficult for me.

b)Can ToY be interpreted in any way other than as a confirmation that Ulmo's counsel of war was still present? The text referred to is the entry for year 511 emended to year 509 in Text ‘C’. It reads: The Second Kinslaying. The Sons of Feanor assail[ed] Dior, and he was slain; slain also were Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir. Eldun and Elrun sons of Dior were left in the woods to starve. Elwing escaped and came with the Silmaril to the Mouths of Sirion. Ulmo sends a last warning to Gondolin, which now alone is left; but Turgon will have no alliance with any after the kinslaying of Doriath. Maeglin Eol's son, sister-son of Turgon, was taken in the hills, and betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth. in the previous text ‘B’ only the last warning of Ulmo was spoken of. But in the following text ‘D2’ this element is missing completely. The Second Kinslaying is moved to Yule of 506-507, but no reaction of Turgon to this event is given. The capture Maeglin is moved to 509.
Christopher Tolkien does compare this with Q30 were after Turgon is bidden to make war on Morgoth it is said of Turogn after hearing of the Second Kinslaying that ‘he shut his ear to word of the woes without; and he vowed to march never at the side of any son of Feanor.’
Again these accounts are very much compressed. That in one of them the ‘alliance with the Feanorians’ is mentioned at all is in my view much more telling then it missing in all others. But this is no straight forward answer to Aiwendils question. I have to confess that the straight forward answer is: Yes, it could be that Turgon does only think of future events in the liking of the Union of Maedhros. But taken together with the story in Q30 where the reference is clearly to the war that Ulmo urged Turgon to wage, this seems more then unlikely.

C:Is it possible to make our text ambiguous, so that it neither includes the counsel of war nor contradicts it?In principal yes, but it could be that the result is very awkward. I think we would have to shorten the message to some blank statement that Tuor delivered it and Turgons answer to a blank refusal without giving much reason (since that would hint at the message itself). As the text was before we restarted the discussion the bidding to war was not included. The impression was that this would be an exclusion, even so one could make the argument that not every word was reported and therefore the bidding of Ulmo to march forth could have been still part of the unreported message. But this is very constructed.

D): Would we be justified in going against the earlier decision, made by the larger group that was active at that time?This question does need a kind of general answer. It will come again and again as long as the group working on the project does change. And I hope it will change, since now that can only mean to have more participants. Whenever new members came in we urged them re-open any discussion were they thought their own interpretation of the text were not represented in the discussion. Why should we discussion a point anew, if we were unwilling to change a decision? So let us set some rules for such cases:
- There is no restriction for farther discussions. That means anybody can and should reopen a discussion if she/he feels that a valid point was not accurately covered in the previous discussions.
- A former decision found by silent agreement of the former members of the working staff, can be changed by a spoken unanimous consensus or voting of the active members.
- A former decision made by voting of the former members, might be changed, if a new counting of old and new votes would change the decision, or if the staff has changed drastically and new and convincing arguments have come up, by a calculation system in which the votes of all the active members together have the same weight as the votes of all now inactive members.
- A former decision taken by a spoken unanimous consensus of the former members can only be changed if:
a) New and convincing arguments have come up, that were not heard of in the former discussion
AND
b) the group of active members finds a new spoken unanimous consensus.
A corollary to these rules is that the group should try to get as many active members in such re-decisions as possible. Meaning that semi-active members should get a special invitation to speak up on such points

Respectfully
Findegil

gondowe

03-04-2013, 12:14 PM

I have corrected the post, with the old system and I had forgotten to delete "and at the coming of next year" sentence at the end of the quotation. This have good sense.

Sorry but it`s very difficult for me to read the text in the screen and sorry for the confusion in the system of editing.

Greetings

Aiwendil

03-06-2013, 09:56 PM

I've been thinking more about the issue I raised in question D, and I think Findegil is right that we should answer it in a general way. And after trying out various permutations in my head, I think that the best way to go is something along the lines of Findegil's suggestion. Therefore I propose the following as an amendment to our principles:

8. a. There is no restriction on further discussion of questions that have already been decided; anyone may re-open a discussion, and is encouraged to do so if he or she thinks that a relevant point was not adequately considered.

b. A decision made by silent agreement of the members may be changed by an explicit unanimous consensus or a majority vote of the active members.

c. A decision made by voting may be changed if a new counting of old and new votes would alter the outcome or, if the active membership has changed drastically and previously unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made, by a simple vote among the active members.

d. A decision made by an explicit unanimous agreement may be changed if previoulsy unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made and the active members come to a new explicit unanimous consensus.

A corollary to these rules is that the group should try to involve as many active members in such re-decisions as possible, for which reason semi-active members should be specially invited to speak on such points.

I think that this is effectively the same as Findegil's proposal; I've just changed the language slightly to make it clearer.

If we adopt these rules, that gives us a framework for deciding about such cases, which is immensely helpful. Still, it leaves me a little bit unsure about where the decision at hand (concerning Ulmo's counsel of war) fits in. Do we consider our former decision to exclude it to have been made by a vote or by unanimous agreement?

Findegil

03-07-2013, 05:22 AM

There is only 1 substantial diverence between your formulation and my one: In the case of a old voting and a drastically changed membership and previously unconsidered arguments: You give the new membership the right to vote simply, while I wanted a system in which the votes of the now inactive members would still be counted. May be my system was made clear. Therefore I will give some exampels:

A) Old voting: 10 members voted, case was simple a or b, result a=8; b=2
new voting: from the 10 voters of old 2 are still active both had of old voted with a, 2 new members vote also result a=1; b=4

To get a chance to overcome the old vote at all the active member ship does need more wieght on the votes (which is considered justified because they have heard all arguments). In the old vote 10 members had voted in the new only 5 therefore:
Weights: lowest common multiple of 10 and 5 is 10 => old votes 10/10=1, new votes 10/5=2
Members activ in both votings have of course only one vote and that is counted in the new wiegth.
Result:
a: ( 8 votes of old minus 2 votes changed by still active members ) multiplied by wieght 1 plus 1 new vote multiplied by weight 2:
(8-2)x1+1x2=8
b: ( 2 votes of old minus 0 votes changed by still active members ) multiplied by wieght 1 plus 4 new vote multiplied by weight 2:
(2-0)x1+4x2=10
Result changed from a to b.

B) Old voting: 9 members voted, case was a, b, c; result a=4; b=3; c=2
new voting: from the 9 voters of old 3 are still active 2 had voted b, 1 voted with c.
3 new members voted
Result a=2; b=3; c=1

Result:
Weights: lowest common multiple of 9 and 6 is 18 => old votes 18/9=2, new votes 18/6=3
a: ( 4 votes of old minus 0 votes changed by still active members ) multiplied by wieght 2 plus 2 new votes multiplied by weight 3:
(4-0)x2+2x3=14
b: ( 3 votes of old minus 2 votes changed by still active members ) multiplied by wieght 2 plus 3 new votes multiplied by weight 3:
(3-2)x2+3x3=11
c: ( 1 votes of old minus 1 votes changed by still active members ) multiplied by wieght 2 plus 1 new vote multiplied by weight 3:
(1-1)x2+1x3=3
Result unchanged a even so b had a relative majority in the group of active members.

The mathematics are a bit complex, but the result especially in narrow cases does take the old votes more into account. But I am not adamant on these, if the simpler solution is wanted I can go with that as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil

03-10-2013, 01:17 PM

Ah, you are right. I was thinking only of the case where there are only two options and no overlap between old and new members, in which case your proposal is the same as my simpler one. (Don't worry about the math; voting systems are actually a minor interest of mine, and in fact you should all be glad I haven't gone so far as to propose some sort of Condorcet method for deciding contentious issues!)

I think your proposal is probably the better one. So my proposed addendum to the Principles is then:

8. a. There is no restriction on further discussion of questions that have already been decided; anyone may re-open a discussion, and is encouraged to do so if he or she thinks that a relevant point was not adequately considered.

b. A decision made by silent agreement of the members may be changed by an explicit unanimous consensus or a majority vote of the active members.

c. A decision made by voting may be changed if a new counting of old and new votes would alter the outcome or, if the active membership has changed drastically and previously unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made, by a calculation system in which the votes of all the active members together have the same weight as the votes of all now inactive members.

d. A decision made by an explicit unanimous agreement may be changed if previoulsy unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made and the active members come to a new explicit unanimous consensus.

A corollary to these rules is that the group should try to involve as many active members in such re-decisions as possible, for which reason semi-active members should be specially invited to speak on such points.

Findegil

03-10-2013, 03:44 PM

I have to beg your pardon. It seems I formulated my own idea baddly. The example I made did not refelct what I wrote. But I am happy with mathematic and not with the formulation.

The formulation should be:c. A decision made by voting may be changed if a new counting of old and new votes would alter the outcome or, if the active membership has changed drastically and previously unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made, by a calculation system in which the old and new voting would have the same weight, but in which from the old voting only votes of the now inactive members are counted.Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil

03-12-2013, 09:41 PM

Right - however, the old votes of the members who are still active when the new vote takes place do get taken into consideration when determining the relative weighting of old and new votes (or at least, that's what appears to be assumed in the examples you gave); but the principle you propose sounds to me as though it is saying that the votes of those who are still currently active are subtracted before calculating the weighting. But actually, that may be the better way to do it. Then in your example A, the weights would be 5 for the old votes and 8 for the new votes, and the result would be the same; but in your example B, the weights for old and new votes would be equal, and the result would be changed.

Findegil

03-13-2013, 07:31 PM

All quotes by Aiwendil:however, the old votes of the members who are still active when the new vote takes place do get taken into consideration when determining the relative weighting of old and new votesRight and that is how I wanted it.but the principle you propose sounds to me as though it is saying that the votes of those who are still currently active are subtracted before calculating the weighting.So it is still badly formulated.But actually, that may be the better way to do it.I don't agree. My idea was to give the old votes of now inactive members a slightly lesser wieght, since they did not hear the new arguments. The number of the still active members now revoting seems to me a good indicator of how much more wieght a new vote should have. The idea of that was if none of the old voters would still be active old and new voting should have equal weight, since none of new voters would have heared and consider the old arguments 'live', so with the possibility of requestioning and discussion. And on the other hand if all old voters would still be active the old votes would all be retaken. Anyway a still active member would re-tack a vote with the old weight and give one with the new wieght.

With your propose a single voter of old now inactive would become a very high weight.

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil

03-15-2013, 11:50 AM

Okay, you make a good argument. How about this:

c. A decision made by voting may be changed if a new counting of old and new votes would alter the outcome or, if the active membership has changed drastically and previously unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made, by a calculation system in which both old and new votes are counted, with the new votes weighted so that their sum is equal to the total number of old votes, with the old votes of those members who are also casting new votes counted for the purpose of determining the weighting but not counted in determining the result.

This should replicate the behaviour you want exactly. The only slight change is that I've replaced the vague idea of active vs. inactive members with the unambiguous one of members who are casting new votes and those who are not.

Findegil

03-16-2013, 05:36 PM

Perfect.

So we have done that general work. Now what does that mean for the point at hand?

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil

03-19-2013, 02:27 PM

I guess the first question is whether we consider the agreement by you, me, and Maedhros on the issue of Ulmo's counsel to have been a vote or a unanimous consensus. No official vote was taken, and we all found the solution adopted to be acceptable, but it was fairly clear that you preferred to include the counsel of war while Maedhros and I preferred not to.

But that might not actually matter. If we consider it a unanimous agreement, then according to the new principle, that can only be changed by a new unanimous agreement (and only if new arguments have been brought forward). If we consider it a vote, then it can be changed if a count of old and new votes would produce a different result, but unless I'm mistaken a count of old and new votes would actually result in a tie: switch me from the 'exclude' to the 'include' column, but add Gondowe to the 'exclude' column, making it 2-2. (Incidentally, I just realized that we didn't make it clear whether the old votes of members who are voting again still count in this case, but I assumed they would not). It seems to me that in the case of such a tie, the old decision would stand.

gondowe

03-27-2013, 09:21 AM

Hello again both fellows, I've been very busy. I agree with what you decided about the votes.

One thing apart from the matter we were discussing. Now, I don't know if you already received the last Vinyar Tengwar. Its about a Sindarin text "The Turin Wrapper". There is one sentence we could introduce at the beginning; is related to Rían telling Tuor her fears (like a thought, not as dialogue, rhetorical) after the Nirnaeth (the treason of the Easterlings) and before giving him to the Grey Elves:
"And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all [?the earth/hands/hearts] of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be [?opposed/?silent] to us.
The words in brackets are those with a hard lecture/transcription, but I think is very plausible like this:
"And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us." or
"And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all the hearts of the dwarves and of the Elves will be silent to us."

Could we consider the sentence to introduce in the text in some way in the second paragraph?

What do you think?

Greetings

Findegil

03-28-2013, 05:59 AM

Okay first the easy matter: As we have made up our rules the decission about Ulmo asking Turgon to go to war is done. Since we already observed in the first discussion that it might be the saver way to let this element out, we are at least on the save side.

For me it seems that we have with this setteled down all points brought up by Aiwendil.

Now to the more arcane matter of the nice Vinyar Tengwar sentence: As much as I agree with Gondowe that it would be nice to include that reflection on the treason of the Easterlings, I think that the actual act of introduction might be impossibly difficult under our rules. I have VT 50 at home but not at hand in the moment. I did not yet read it, but will do (at least in part) this evening. I hope that I find some more material to work with, but if it is only that blanc sentence we have, then our editing would have to be very free, like this:... There she would have perished, but the Grey-elves came to her aid. For there was a dwelling of this people in the mountains westward of Lake Mithrim; and thither they led her, and she was there delivered of a son before the end of the Year of Lamentation.
And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth,FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 /told her what he did know about that battle. So he revaled the treason of the Easterlings./ And said Rían to Tuor: 'What{what} have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.'/
And at the end Annael/ said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
Therefore Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ...I suppose the sentence is realy in some mode of elvish script and probably in one of the earlier elvish lenguages as well. So we might consider to enter it in this form and provide a translation.
I will come back on this matter as soon as I have VT 50 in hand.

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil

04-01-2013, 02:42 PM

I also have VT50 but haven't read it yet. I agree with Findegil that it may be impossible to incorporate it, since there is no very natural place to insert it into the text. The suggestion of putting it in the second paragraph is probably the best we could do, but we still have to invent a sentence about the news of the treachery of the Easterlings, as in Findegil's attempt.

Findegil

04-02-2013, 05:57 AM

Reading VT 50 I found that the matter is more complex then expected. The sentence is in Latin script but in an early form of Sindarin language. It reads in the final form (reach by Tolkien with some emendations while writing):Arphent Rían
Tuorna: man agorech?
Sí
il chem en i naugrim
en ir Ellath thor
den amenTolkien provides neither translation nor context. Which makes the attempts of the editors of VT to translate the sentence more difficult. The full analysis is very interesting but would lead to fare here (in addition to breaking there copy right). They arrive finally at the following possible meanings:And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all the earth of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be opposed to us.
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all hands of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be opposed to us.
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all hearts of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be opposed to us.
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all the earth of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be silent to us.
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all hearts of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be silent to us.The metaphorical meant is quite clear: Rian is expressing to her infant boy here fear that due to the betrayal men have done during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the dwarves and Elves will in future be opposed to men. Nonetheless the exact translation is very much uncertain as shown above.
In such a case we must step back and look at our rules:4. No new names and no new expressions in Elvish or in any of J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages may be introduced; all names or expressions in J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages that are updated must be changed either in accordance with a universal change by Tolkien or with a logical reason and a sound etymology.Wouldn't it be violating this rule (at least in spirit) to give a definite translation to a phrase like that discussed here, were the guru's of ELF do not provide such a definite meaning?

The way around this would be giving the phrase in Sindarin and providing a translation in a footnote with some colloquial remark about its uncertainty. But then we have to be sure if this phrase is still valid Sindarin or if it is out dated? I am much to less an expert in Tolkien’s languages to answer that question.
If it is outdated: are we trusting our self to make an appropriate updating with the uncertainty in meaning we have? I don't believe so.

Anyway I am still very much interested to include the sentence if possible. It does transport some very interesting information about men before the Nirnaeth. As much as we are told that the Edain shunned the newly come Easterlings, I for my part believed the Edain thought of the newcomers as part of the hunting parties that had followed them out of the east to drag as many as possible to the scarifies at the temple of Morogth. But if Rian has such feeling of togetherness as to take upon herself and her kind a common blame for the deeds of a part of the Easterlings this does no longer feel true to me.
So if the Sindarin is okay I would propose the following: ... There she would have perished, but the Grey-elves came to her aid. For there was a dwelling of this people in the mountains westward of Lake Mithrim; and thither they led her, and she was there delivered of a son before the end of the Year of Lamentation.
And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth,FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 /told her what he did know about that battle. So he revealed the treason of the Easterlings. And said Rían to Tuor:/ {Arphent Rían Tuorna: man} ’Man agorech? Sí il chem en i naugrim en ir Ellath thor den amen.’ [Footnote: 'What have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.' (Translation is not absolutely certain)]/
And at the end Annael/ said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
Therefore Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ...Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: Members who don't have VT 50 should visit the privat forum.

Findegil

04-02-2013, 07:50 AM

Coming back to FG-T-24 which I think is the last more or less open question of Aiwendil. After we set our rules in a way that does fix the old vote (at least for the moment) may be we should think harder on Aiwendil's question c):Is it possible to make our text ambiguous, so that it neither includes the counsel of war nor contradicts it?If we could that would agree to the spirit of the old discussion and cover the new position of Aiwendil and my own as good as possible. So I will try it out:FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your{ dwelling and your hill of} vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin].{ Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.}’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs{, nor emperil my city against the fire of Melko}.’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare{ greatly} then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, {though terrible the encounter, }then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel{ to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone}; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’ <QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; ...Thus Ulmo would beg Turgon to prepare for war but not to wage it on his own. It could either be interpreted as meaning that Ulmo is urging Turgon to wage that war now, or that he should prepare for the War of Wrath foressen by Ulmo.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Aiwendil

04-16-2013, 07:26 PM

Sorry for my absence the last few weeks.

FG-T-24: Findegil's last suggestion looks viable to me. Gondowe, you have been the most reluctant of us three to include Ulmo's counsel of war; does Findegil's proposal look acceptable to you, or would you rather avoid the suggestion of arming for war altogether?

FG-TCG-00.2: I still think that including this sentence requires too much textual meddling. I appreciate that it would be nice to use it, but the necessary addition required to set it up - i.e., mentioning specifically that Annael told her about the treachery of the Easterlings - looks like too great an intrusion to me.

gondowe

04-25-2013, 10:38 AM

Hello, sorry for the long delay in answering.
I would like very much in introducing as much as text as I could do it. I think that the message Tuor speaks to Turgon (in my version) is very short and is not good from the point of view of literature.
But I really think (and always thougth) deep in my mind, considering all that was said in previous posts, that the only will of Ulmo at last (in the last concept of Tolkien), is to bring Tour to Gondolin to born Eärendil, destinated with the help of the Silmaril to reach Aman. I think Ulmo always knew by the Doom of Mandos or whatever be, that there were any hope to defeat Morgoth.
So in my humble opinion, much of the text in FG-T-24 and FG-T-25 is out of place.

Alas! How wish many minds opining here.

FG-TCG-00.2 I agree in everything.

Greetings

Findegil

04-25-2013, 11:45 AM

Okay, I will give it a second go:FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your{ dwelling and your hill of} vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and {prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.}’ <Q30 abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people down Sirion>.' <Q30 Summons too should {he}Turgon send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against {the fire of Melko}<editorial addition decline>.’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’ <QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; ...In this version Ulmo would beg Turgon to retreat to the mouth of Sirion and there gahter all strength for the war to come. Now Ulmo fortells that with the gathered sterngth of Turgon the war to come from the West would be much more then the actual War of Wrath in which the forces of Middle-Earth were very much reduced. This counsel would allow Eärendil to be real cause form Ulmos action, even so if Turgon would have followed at least one of Ulmos bidding his early viëta and later role might have been diffrent.

Respectfuly
Findegil

gondowe

04-27-2013, 09:07 AM

I don't have very much time, so I beg for pardon if the text is not in the rules of editing.
But I tried to compound my version of the text, having in mind your last post that is finer than others before (for me of course).

FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. {There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his} His heart is wroth and {the hearts of the Valar are} he is angered {who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil,} seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. {Therefore have} Have I been brought by a secret way to <QS77 {And he} gave warning to {Turgon} you that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish>; bid you number your hosts and {prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’} <Q30 abandon Gondolin and lead {his} your people down Sirion>.' <Q30 Summons too should {he}Turgon send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> <Q30 A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, {but victory if Turgon would dare it}, the breaking of Morgoth’s power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world,{ and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more}.>
Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: {‘Every year at the lifting of winter}Yet after Bragollach and past the Nirnaeth Arnoediad have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats {whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind}, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; {and at the coming of next year} no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’
<Q30 Maeglin spoke ever against Tuor {in the councils of the King}, and his words seemed the more weighty in that they went with Turgon's heart. Wise-hearted even beyond the measure of the daughters of Elfinesse was the daughter of the King, and she spoke even for Tuor; {and} but at the last {he} Turgon rejected the bidding of Ulmo and refused his counsel.
Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea.
Q30< {thougt} However some there were of his wisest counselors who were filled with disquiet>, <Q77{but} and in the warning of the Vala Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore[later] in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood.
But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01 <GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>. Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin.

Greetings

Findegil

07-15-2014, 10:23 AM

Can it be that this was the last post before the long silence?

Howsoever it should not be the last post in this thread. I will try to help out were Gondowe had a problem of laking time. Here you find his proposal as goog edited according to our rules as I could do it:FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. FG-T-24.1{There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his}His heart is wroth FG-T-24.2{and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, }seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. FG-T-24.3{Therefore have}Have I been brought by a secret way to FG-T-24.4<QS77 {And he gave}give warning to {Turgon}you that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish> and bid you number your hosts and FG-T-24.5{prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.}’ FG-T-24.6<Q30 abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people down Sirion>.' FG-T-24.7<Q30 Summons too should {he}Turgon send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.>FG-T-24.8<Q30 A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, FG-T-24.9{but victory if Turgon would dare it,} the breaking of Morgoth’s power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world{, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more}.>FG-T-24.91Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo FG-T-24.92<TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>FG-T-24.93<TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[And when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
FG-T-25.3<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
FG-T-25.7 Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26{that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea.
FG-T-26.3<Q30 {thougt}However some there were of his wisest counselors who were filled with disquiet>, FG-T-26.5<Q77{but} and in the warning of the Vala Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore FG-T-26.7[ later] in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood.
But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01<GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>. Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin.I did only correct garmatical issues were I was sure that they had no meaning. In addition I added some Editing markers to make the discussion easier. Which I like to start right now:

FG-T-24.1, FG-T-24.2: I understand this changes to mean that Ulmo is only speaking for himself and not making any statemants about the other Valar. That is okay for me as it can be read out of Ulmos words an Vinyamar that he does work on his own an against their counsel.

FG-T-24.3: I don't understand this change, and it leaves the sentence very ungramatical. I suppose to leave the start of this sentence as it is, since it does still fit the rest of our edited text nicely.

FG-T-24.4: I can see why this is wished for and since we have no better source Sil77 is okay here.

FG-T-24.5: I see no reason to eliminate this, especially when FG-T-24.7 is kept.

FG-T-24.9: Okay, this must go if Turgon is not bidden to wage war immedatley.

FG-T-24.93: That is a smart placement, as it would allow us to say all the rest of the conversation is not Ulmo speaking through Tour to Turgon, but Tuor himself trying to persue Turgon at least to do part of Ulmos biding as he understood it.

FG-T-25 This was the passage of direct speech taken from LT, which must be skipt because it speaks of a war at hand not in the far future.

FG-T-25.3: This is a long passage from Sil77. For some parts of it we have the source information and should use these sources instaed and only add what is found exclusivly in Sil77 under that label. I will prepare that for my next draft.

FG-T-25.7: I find here is somthing missing. Why should Turgon speak about his messagers, if he was not bidden to send new once? Either we have to skip more of his answer or we have to introduce Tuor's biding to send new messengers.

FG-T-26.3 to FG-T-26.7: This is put together nicely, but it is picking up phrases here and there yust to get a text done. I think if we have to make it more simple. Even so I understand that it is better to take it up earlier then we did before in FG-TG-01.5. Especially FG-T-26.2 is not necessary at all. The phrase 'in that time' is vague enough to allow us to use the sentence at any place in the discussion between Tuor and Turgon.

That would bring the section to tjis form:FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. FG-T-24.1{There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his}His heart is wroth FG-T-24.2{and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, }seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. FG-T-24.3 Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to FG-T-24.4<QS77 {And he gave}give warning to {Turgon}you that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish> and bid you number your hosts and FG-T-24.5 prepare for battle, {for the time is ripe.'} FG-T-24.6<Q30 abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people down Sirion>.' FG-T-24.7<QS30 Summons too should {he}Turgon send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.>FG-T-24.8<QS30 A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, FG-T-24.9{but victory if Turgon would dare it,} the breaking of Morgoth’s power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world{, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more}.>FG-T-24.91Thus <QS30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo FG-T-24.92<TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>FG-T-24.93<TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[And when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
FG-T-25.3<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.'> FG-T-25.31<QS30 But proud was Turgon become, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory {Tun}[Tirion], and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength FG-T-25.32<QS77 , though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad>{so that} heand the most part of his folk wished not to imperil it nor leave it, and they desired not to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without; nor did they any longer desire to return through dread and danger to the West.>FG-T-26.5<QS77{but}But in the warning of the Vala Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore FG-T-26.7 in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood. FG-T-25.33<QS77 Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
FG-T-25.34<QS30 Meglin spoke ever against Tuor in the councils of the king, and his words seemed the more weighty in that they went with Turgon's heart. Wherefore Turgon rejected the bidding of Ulmo; though some there were of his wisest counsellors who were filled with disquiet. Wise-hearted even beyond the measure of the daughters of Elfinesse was the daughter of the king, and she spoke ever for Tuor, though it did not avail, and her heart was heavy. Very fair and tall was she, well nigh of warrior's stature, and her hair was a fountain of gold. Idril was she named, and called Celebrindal, Silver-foot, for the whiteness of her foot; and she walked and danced ever unshod in the white ways and green lawns of Gondolin.>
FG-T-25.5 But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long FG-T-25.53{ages}[years] gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’
FG-T-25.7Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26{that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea. But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01<GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>.
Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin.Respectfuly
Findegil

Findegil

07-28-2014, 02:55 PM

I have agian thought about the Rían sentence FG-TCG-00.2. Would it be okay to add it in this way:... There she would have perished, but the Grey-elves came to her aid. For there was a dwelling of this people in the mountains westward of Lake Mithrim; and thither they led her, and she was there delivered of a son before the end of the Year of Lamentation.
And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’ FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 {Arphent Rían Tuorna: man}/And said Rían to Tuor:/ ’Man agorech? Sí il chem en i naugrim en ir Ellath thor den amen.’ [Footnote: 'What have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.' (Translation is not absolutely certain)]
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth, said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
Therefore Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ... Respectfuly
Findegil

Aiwendil

08-13-2014, 04:37 PM

So unless I'm mistaken, there are two unresolved issues here. First, the question of whether to include Ulmo's counsel that Turgon prepare for war in any way, and second whether to include the Rian sentence from VT50.

On the first question, it seems that long ago Findegil, Maedhros, and I had decided not to include Ulmo's counsel that Turgon rally all the Elves and Men he could and go to war against Morgoth. However, in looking at the chapter again, it seemed to me and Findegil that we been too hasty in rejecting it, and that support for keeping it can be found in the Tale of Years. However, Gondowe opposed its inclusion, on the basis that he was convinced that in the later story, the only hope that Ulmo saw was in the eventual birth of Earendil.

The last proposal from Gondowe keeps much of Ulmo's counsel but changes its import: Turgon is urged to make an alliance with all the Elves and Men he can, and gather his strength, but he is not told to go to war. I suppose the idea is that Ulmo wants him to be prepared for the Great Battle, but I have to say that I am skeptical of changing the text in this way - keeping the words but changing their meaning. Ultimately, I think I still lean toward including the whole of Ulmo's counsel.

What do Lindil and Eruhen think?

The Rian sentence is an easier matter, and actually I think that Findegil's latest proposal manages to introduce it without any problematic changes to the text.

gondowe

10-04-2014, 02:28 AM

Hello fellows, how are you. Always nice to see the project goin' on.
I had to re elaborate my mind to remember old decisions, and I continue with very little time.
So:

FG-T-24.5: I see no reason to eliminate this, especially when FG-T-24.7 is kept.

In this context I think that the urgency is not to prepare for war, but to escape from Gondolin.

FG-T-25.7: I find here is somthing missing. Why should Turgon speak about his messagers, if he was not bidden to send new once? Either we have to skip more of his answer or we have to introduce Tuor's biding to send new messengers.

Dramatically I think is necessary that after the message from Tuor/Ulmo, Turgon explains as a kind of complaint that the Valar don't want to hear their asking from help (from the messengers). And proudly they stay in Gondolin.

The rest is OK for me.

As for the Rían sentence: Is good but I'm goin to propose other place:

And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth, said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 {Arphent Rían Tuorna: man}/Then said Rían to Tuor:/ ’Man agorech? Sí il chem en i naugrim en ir Ellath thor den amen.’ [Footnote: 'What have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.' (Translation is not absolutely certain)] {Therefore} /After/ Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ...

What do you think?

Greetings

Findegil

10-06-2014, 07:03 AM

Nice to read your oppinion here again gondowe!

Starting with the easier matter: FG-TCG-00.2 the Rían sentence: I find your placement even beter then my own. It makes implicit what my first trial made explicit, that Annael told more about the battle then just the place of Hours death. Just for stylistical reasons I would prefer to change the 'Therefore' that gondowe changed to 'After' into a 'Thereafter'. Laading to ... There she would have perished, but the Grey-elves came to her aid. For there was a dwelling of this people in the mountains westward of Lake Mithrim; and thither they led her, and she was there delivered of a son before the end of the Year of Lamentation.
And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth, said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 {Arphent Rían Tuorna: man}/And said Rían to Tuor:/ ’Man agorech? Sí il chem en i naugrim en ir Ellath thor den amen.’ [Footnote: 'What have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.' (Translation is not absolutely certain)] {Therefore}Thereafter Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ...
Now to the more difficult part: About Ulmos counsel to prepare for the war to come. Even so I tried to prepair and even better gondowe's idea of Ulmo urging Turgon only to prepair for the great-battle (later know as the War of Wrath), I agree in part to Aiwendil that we should keep more of Ulmo's bidding. Anyhow I do not understand Aiwendil's argument that we change the meaning: What else than the War of Wrath could have been the outcome of Ulmo's counsel of war if Turgon would have agreed? Especially if we look for the promissed outcome of the battle ('whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more')? This outcome is (if at all) in any version of the legendarium as far as I can see only archivable with the help of the Valar (or probably Eru himself). As I read the text Ulmo does urge Turgon organise an 'all in' move from the free people of Middle-Earth. In such a case both Eru and the Valar would have probaly felt the necessity to grant some help.
In this context I think that the urgency is not to prepare for war, but to escape from Gondolin.Still Gondolin stood long years before its fall. Why would be the urgency on the flight from the city? And what would have been the positive effect of such an early flight? For the preparation of a war as Ulmo aksed for that would have probaly taken the years that still were left.
Dramatically I think is necessary that after the message from Tuor/Ulmo, Turgon explains as a kind of complaint that the Valar don't want to hear their asking from help (from the messengers). And proudly they stay in Gondolin.Agreed, but then it seems necessary to have Tuor asking him to send messengers first.

Anyhow I feel the discussion going in a wrong direction: Were is the textual suport for our arguments? The stronges moments in the history of this project have ever been when we were able to discover 'the truth' about a fact in Middle-Earth by adding some information / support from other texts. And the most terible once when we only exchanged our oppinions and when we found them incompatible came to a text by counting votes.

Aiwendil and I have given the support we see from the Grey Annals and the Tale of the Years. gondowe can you from your point of view answer Aiwendils question b): Can ToY be interpreted in any way other than as a confirmation that Ulmo's counsel of war was still present?The text in questions reads:The Second Kinslaying. The Sons of Feanor assail[ed] Dior, and he was slain; slain also were Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir. Eldun and Elrun sons of Dior were left in the woods to starve. Elwing escaped and came with the Silmaril to the Mouths of Sirion. Ulmo sends a last warning to Gondolin, which now alone is left; but Turgon will have no alliance with any after the kinslaying of Doriath. Maeglin Eol's son, sister-son of Turgon, was taken in the hills, and betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth.
Respectfuly
Findegil

gondowe

10-06-2014, 10:50 AM

Mistaken text

gondowe

10-06-2014, 10:52 AM

Yes Findegil, is a very, very difficult matter, we have not enough material, but for that reason our opinions about 'the truth' are important. Many times the professor didn't explain his reasons for the development of the history in finished texts. Perhaps I'm influenced by the published Sill77 but in this case we have one important vote for the text, that of C.Tolkien in Sil77,... I don't know.

The ToY matter. Someone think yes, someone no. I still think is ambiguous but I can't think in other way, for me is not an evidence, sorry. I would like to vote, but If my opinion is only considered to contrast, I'll be grateful.

In this way and knowing in your opinion of the wrong direction of the discussion, I wanted to made clear my line of thinking.
First, the time passed till the Fall of Gondolin came due to the reaction of Turgon, negative to abandon and have relation with the others (Men, sons of Fëanor or whoever). So with a positive and on time answer, theoretically, much of what happened after could not have happen (Third kinslaying, etc).
As for the messengers is not necessary that Tour ask for send another one, the speech of Turgon doesn't implies such thing (for me).

Evidently I'm trying to 'think' like Ulmo, ha, ha. Ulmo knows that 1 Messenger will go, but perhaps all is in vain because Ulmo knows that Turgon will not obey.
Speculation I know, sorry, but we have no later material.

Greetings

Findegil

10-09-2014, 11:13 AM

gondowe, if I understood you correctly, you see Ulmos message only as a kind of trigger for Tuor to reach Gondolin. The real reason behind it is only to allow Tuor to father Earendil.

Thinking in that way, meaning considering the reasoning of divine beings, is not easy. Ulmo is not Eru. He, as all the Valar has a different reception of time and history in comparison to us but he is not omniscient. We know that the Valar could in their mind move backward and forward in time. So it seems obvious that being inside the history of Arda the reception of the Valar of events laying in the future seen from the moment of reception, was restricted to their knowledge of the Music of the Ainur and the vision of Arda shown to them by Eru. Eru in contrast is omniscient, he would be able to know all the events even to the most minute point at any given time of history for any given time of history (the same is true for the Ainur that stayed with Eru, since their existence always was outside time, while the Valar by entering Arda at the beginning of time ‘bound’ themselves to history and with that to time). Thus Ulmo could say ‘the days of Release draw nigh’ but I doubt that he could pinpoint it to a definite date.
In the same way I would doubt that he could presage the exact outcome of the War of Wrath before it happened. I think that he did know that the might of Melkor or better the influence of the Melkor ingredient in the History of Arda would be diminished greatly. But I also do not doubt that he did know that this was not a war to end war and that there would be two further ages of Arda ending in a war against an agent dealing with the Melkor ingredient. But it seems clear that none did know that this would be Sauron (otherwise why should Eonwe allow Sauron stay in Middle-Earth?) or by which means (in part with Orks and other minions of Melkor left behind) Sauron could work.

So what does it all mean for the special case at hand?
I agree that Ulmo did probably know that the most important part of Tuors journey was the fathering of Earendil (Ulmo at Vinyamar: ’… even from Nivrost one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men.’). But still Ulmo says to Turgon in Vinyamar ‘But love it[Gondolin] not too well, and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.’ If only bringing forth Earendil was the sole propose, why then warn Turgon in that way? For me it seems clear that had Turgon followed Ulmos biding brought to him by Tuor the (end-)result most have been better then it turned out to be.
Now we could speculate a lot what that bidding could have been, and how that might have changed the history, but why? We have the old versions and nothing newer. In the old versions Trugon is bidden to gather all the free people of Middle-Earth to his banner and start the War. Ulmo does not promise him that he would outlive that War; he does only promise that the victory in that War would be more effective then the result of the War of Wrath in the event was.

May be the best way to bring the project forward in this arcane situation is start from scrap: What sources do we have? And what do they say? Let’s go through:

Lost Tales: There is first a passage describing Ulmos speech to Tuor, then a long passage of active speech of both Tuor and Turgon: … Then Ulmo arose and spake to him and for dread he came near to death, for the depth of the voice of Ulmo is of the uttermost depth: even as deep as his eyes which are the deepest of all things. And Ulmo said: "O Tuor of the lonely heart, I will not that thou dwell for ever in fair places of birds and flowers; nor would I lead thee through this pleasant land, o but that so it must be. But fare now on thy destined journey and tarry not, for far from hence is thy weird set. Now must thou seek through the lands for the city of the folk called Gondothlim or the dwellers in stone, and the Noldoli shall escort thee thither in secret for fear of the spies of Melko. Words I will set to your mouth there, and there you shall abide awhile. Yet maybe thy life shall turn again to the mighty waters; and of a surety a child shall come of thee than whom no man shall know more of the uttermost deeps, be it of the sea or of the firmament of heaven." Then spake Ulmo also to Tuor some of his design and desire, but thereof Tuor understood little at that time and feared greatly.
…
Then Turgon king of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. "Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! Thy coming was set in our books of wisdom, and it has been writtenthat there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim whenso thou faredst hither." Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. "Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the Noldoli and the wanderings of Men; for Melko ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe."
Then spake Turgon: "That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of Melko."
Then spake Tuor: "Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the Noldoli; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and Melko's power be minished to a little thing."
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: "Then am I bidden to say that men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of Kor and the Gods sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of Melko, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite Melko, and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness."
Then said Turgon: "Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river that is called Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of Melko or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of Melko; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime."
Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwe wept; ... In this account we do have the presaged of Tuor coming ‘in the books of wisdom’, but we are not told by whom nor when. What is also missing is any hint of the second kin-slaying and Turgons reaction thereto.

In a prose fragment of the Tale of Tuor written after LT [HoME IV; chapter 1;i] it does not tell of the message but of Ulmos motives: 'Then' said Ilfiniol son of Bronweg 'know that Ulmo Lord of Waters forgot never the sorrows of the Elfin kindreds beneath the power of Melko, but he might do little because of the anger of the other Gods who shut their hearts against the race of the Gnomes, and dwelt behind the veiled hills of Valinor heedless of the Outer World, so deep was their ruth and regret for the death of the Two Trees. Nor did any save Ulmo only dread the power of Melko that wrought ruin and sorrow over all the Earth; but Ulmo desired that Valinor should gather all its might to quench his evil ere it be too late, and him seemed that both purposes might perchance be achieved if messengers from the Gnomes should win to Valinor and plead for pardon and for pity upon the Earth; for the love of Palurien and Orome her son for those wide realms did but slumber still. Yet hard and evil was the road from the Outer Earth to Valinor, and the Gods themselves had meshed the ways with magic and veiled the encircling hills. Thus did Ulmo seek unceasingly to stir the Gnomes to send messengers unto Valinor, but Melko was cunning and very deep in wisdom, and unsleeping was his wariness in all things that touched the Elfin kindreds, and their messengers overcame not the perils and temptations of that longest and most evil of all roads, and many that dared to set forth were lost for ever.
Now tells the tale how Ulmo despaired that any of the Elfin race should surpass the dangers of the way, and of the deepest and the latest design that he then fashioned, and of those things which came of it.
In the Sketch of the mythology we have both Ulmos presaging and Ulmos message in full and Turgons refusal and so the second kin-slaying is told we have no reaction of Tugon to it.The people of Turgon escaping aided by the prowess of Hurin were lost from the knowledge of Morgoth, and indeed of all in the world save Ylmir. In a secret place in the hills their scouts climbing to the tops discovered a broad valley entirely encircled by the hills in rings ever lower as they came towards the centre. Amid this ring was a wide land without hills, except for one rocky hill that stuck up from the plain, not right at the centre, but nearest to that part of the outer wall which marched close to the edge of Sirion.'
Ylmir's messages come up Sirion bidding them take refuge in this valley, and teaching them spells of enchantment to place upon all the hills about, to keep off foes and spies. He foretells that their fortress shall stand longest of all the refuges of the Elves against Morgoth, and like Doriath never be overthrown - save by treachery from within. …
...
... He [Tuor] is to bid Turgon prepare for battle against Morgoth; for Ylmir will turn the hearts of the Valar to forgive the Gnomes and send them succour. If Turgon will do this, the battle will be terrible, but the race of Orcs will perish and will not in after ages trouble Elves and Men. If not, the people of Gondolin are to prepare for flight to Sirion's mouth, where Ylmir will aid them to build a fleet and guide them back to Valinor. If Turgon does Ylmir's will Tuor is to abide a while in Gondolin and then go back to Hithlum with a force of Gnomes and draw Men once more into alliance with the Elves, for 'without Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Orcs and Balrogs'. This Ylmir does because he knows that ere seven full years are passed the doom of Gondolin will come through Meglin.
...
… Turgon is grown old and very mighty and proud, and Gondolin so fair and beautiful, and its people so proud of it and confident in its secret and impregnable strength, that the king and most of the people do not wish to trouble about the Gnomes and Elves without, or care for Men, nor do they long any more for Valinor. Meglin approving, the king rejects Tuor's message in spite of the words of Idril the far-sighted (also called Idril Silverfoot, because she loved to walk barefoot) his daughter, and the wiser of his counsellors. …
Q30 does repeat the same in nearly the same words. But here for the first time is given a reaction of Turgon to the second kin-slaying. I give first the earlier version QI:… In this [the building of Gondolin] Turgon had the aid of the messages of Ulmo, that came now up the river Sirion; for his voice is to be heard in many waters, and some of the Gnomes had yet the lore to harken. In those days Ulmo was filled with pity for the exiled Elves in their need, and in the ruin that had now almost overwhelmed them. He foretold that the fortress of Gondolin should stand, longest of all the refuges of the Elves against the might of Morgoth,' and like Doriath never be overthrown save by treachery from within. …
…
… But now Ulmo bade him [Tuor] make all speed to Gondolin, and gave him guidance for the finding of the hidden door; and words were set in his mouth to bear to Turgon, bidding him prepare for battle with Morgoth ere all was lost, and promising that Ulmo would win the hearts of the Valar to send him succour. That would be a mortal and a terrible strife, yet if Turgon would dare it, Morgoth's power should be broken and his servants perish and never after trouble the world. But if Turgon would not go forth to this war, then he must abandon Gondolin and lead his people down Sirion, ere Morgoth could oppose him, and at Sirion's mouth Ulmo would befriend him, and lend his aid to the building of a mighty fleet wherein the Gnomes should sail back at last to Valinor, but then grievous would be the fate of the Outer Lands. Tuor's part if Turgon should accept the counsels of Ulmo, would be to go forth when Turgon marched to war and lead a force into Hithlum and draw its Men once more, into alliance with the Elves, for 'without Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Orcs and Balrogs'.
This errand did Ulmo himself perform out of his love of Elves and of the Gnomes, and because he knew that ere twelve years were passed the doom of Gondolin would come, strong though it seemed, if its people sat still behind their walls.
…
Tuor spoke his embassy to Turgon in the great square of Gondolin before the steps of his palace; but the king was grown proud and Gondolin so fair and beautiful and he was so trustful of its secret and impregnable strength, that he and the most of his folk wished no longer to trouble with the Gnomes and Men without, nor did they long more to return to the lands of the Gods. Meglin spake against Tuor in the councils of the king, and Turgon rejected the bidding of Ulmo, and neither did he go forth to war nor seek to fly to the mouths of Sirion; but there were some of his wiser counsellors who were filled with disquiet, and the king's daughter spake ever for Tuor. She was named Idril, one of the fairest of the maidens of the Elves of old, and folk called her Celebrindal, Silverfoot, for the whiteness of her slender feet, and she walked and danced ever unshod.
…
… They succoured not Nargothrond or Doriath, and the wandering Elves knew not how to find them; and when Turgon learned of the slaying of Dior, he vowed never to march with any son of Feanor, and closed his realm, forbidding any of his folk to go ever forth.
In the second Version the first part about Ulmos help in building the city is the same. The rest reads as follow in QII: But now Ulmo bade him [Tuor] make all speed to Gondolin, and gave him guidance for the finding of the hidden door; and a message he gave him to bear from Ulmo, friend of Elves, unto Turgon, bidding him to prepare for war, and battle with Morgoth ere all was lost; and to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; far without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the Gnomes, when every sword should count. A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoth's power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more. But if Turgon would not go forth to this war, then he should abandon Gondolin and lead his people down Sirion, and build thee his fleets and seek back to Valinor and the mercy of the Gods. But in this counsel there was danger more dire than in the other, though so it might not seem; and grievous thereafter would be the fate of the Outer Lands.
This errand Ulmo performed out of his love of the Elves, and because he knew that ere many years were passed the doom of Gondolin would come, if its people sat still behind its walls; not thus should anything of joy or beauty in the world be preserved from Morgoth's malice.
… There Tuor spake the embassy of Ulmo, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared. But proud was Turgon become, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Tun, and he trusted in its secret and impregnable strength; so that he and the most part of his folk wished not to imperil it nor leave it, and they desired not to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without; nor did they any longer desire to return through dread and danger to the West. Meglin spoke ever against Tuor in the councils of the king, and his words seemed the more weighty in that they went with Turgon's heart. Wherefore Turgon rejected the bidding of Ulmo; though some there were of his wisest counsellors who were filled with disquiet. Wise-hearted even beyond the measure of the daughters of Elfinesse was the daughter of the king, and she spoke ever for Tuor, though it did not avail, and her heart was heavy. Very fair and tall was she, well nigh of warrior's stature, and her hair was a fountain of gold. Idril was she named, and called Celebrindal, Silver-foot, for the whiteness of her foot; and she walked and danced ever unshod in the white ways and green lawns of Gondolin.
…
… Tidings Turgon heard of Thorndor concerning the slaying of Dior, Thingol's heir, and thereafter he shut his ear to word of the woes without; and he vowed to march never at the side of any son of Feanor; and his folk he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills.
The next text to be looked upon are the Earliest Annals of Beleriand (AB I the later Version AB II does not reach the Fall of Gondolin). In them the founding of Gondolin is recorded much earlier and Turgon does find Tumladin because he is trouble by dreams send by Ulmo. The Presage of Tuor coming is not in this Annals and the encounter of Tuor with Ulmo and Turgon is very condensed: Ulmo himself appears to him in Nan-tathrin; and Tuor and Bronweg guided by Ulmo find Gondolin. They are received after questioning, and Tuor speaks the embassy of Ulmo. Turgon does not now harken to it, partly because of the urging of Meglin. But Tuor for his kindred's sake is held in great honour.
What followed were the Later Annals of Beleriand (AB2) based closely on AB II as far as it goes and then on AB I. Therefore again the presage of Tuors journey is not included. And the passage of Tuor meeting with Ulmo and Turgon very short: Ulmo himself appeared to Tuor in Nantathrin, and Tuor went thence up Sirion, and guided by Ulmo found the entrance to Gondolin. There Tuor spake the embassy of Ulmo; but Turgon would not now harken to it, and Meglin urged him to this against Tuor.In neither of the Annals up to this point did we have a recount of teh reaction of Trugon to the second kin-slaying.

The Quenta Simarillion (QS) version written between 1930 and 1937 never reached the Fall of Gondolin. And even so the departure of Turgon to Gondolin is reported the message of Ulmo upon his departure is not.

This message is reported in the Gray Annals (GA) under the year 116 and later under year 496 are also reported the meetings of Tuor with Ulmo and Turgon, the second kin-slaying is not reached by this text: In this year Gondolin was full-wrought, after fifty [added: and 2] years of secret toil. Now therefore Turgon prepared to depart from Nivrost, and leave his fair halls in Vinyamar beneath Mount Taras; and then [for the last time Ulmo himself came to him >] Ulmo came to him a second time / and said: 'Now thou shalt go at last to Gondolin, Turgon; and I will set my power in the Vale of Sirion, so that none shall mark thy going, nor shall any find there the hidden entrance to thy land against thy will. Longest of all the realms of the Eldalie shall Gondolin stand against Melkor. But love it not too well, and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.'
And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove. 'Thus it may come to pass,' he said, 'that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason shall awake within thy walls. Then shall they be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh, then even from Nivrost one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men. Leave, therefore, in this house arms and a sword, that in years to come he may find them, and thus shalt thou know him and be not deceived.' And Ulmo showed to Turgon of what kind and stature should be the mail and helm and sword that he left behind.
…
Here Tuor son of Huor met Bronwe of the Noldor at the mouths of Sirion; and they began a journey northward along the great river. But as they dwelt in Nan Tathrin, and delayed because of the peace and beauty of that country in the spring, Ulmo himself came up Sirion and appeared to Tuor, and the yearning for the Great Sea was ever after in his heart. But now at Ulmo's command he went up Sirion, and by the power that Ulmo set upon them Tuor and Bronwe found the guarded entrance to Gondolin. There Tuor was brought before King Turgon, and spake the words that Ulmo had set in his mouth, bidding him depart and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down to the Sea. But Turgon would not listen to this counsel; and [Meglin later >] Glindur his sister-son spoke against Tuor. But Tuor was held in honour in Gondolin, for his kindred's sake.
This annal was much emended and added to (and the date changed to 495), and then (since the text was now in a very confused state) struck out as far as 'bidding him depart' and replaced by the following version on a detached slip:
495 Now Tuor Huor's son had lived as an outlaw in the caves of Androth above Mithrim for four years, and he had done great hurt to the Easterlings, and Lorgan set a price upon his head. But Ulmo, who had chosen him as the instrument of his designs, caused him to go by secret ways out of the land of Dorlomin, so that his going was hidden from all the servants of Morgoth; and he came to Nivrost. But there, becoming enamoured of the Sea, he tarried long; and in the autumn of the year Ulmo himself appeared to Tuor, and bade him to depart, and go to the hidden city of Turgon. And he sent to him Voronwe, last of the mariners of Turgon, to guide him; and Voronwe led Tuor eastward along the eaves of Eryd Wethion to Ivrin. (And there they saw Turin pass, but spoke not with him.) And at the last by the power that Ulmo set upon them they came to the guarded gate of Gondolin. There Tuor was brought before the king, and spoke the counsel of Ulmo, bidding Turgon [the following is the text already given] depart and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down to the Sea. But Turgon would not listen to this counsel; and [Meglin later >] Glindur his sister-son spoke against Tuor. But Tuor was held in honour in Gondolin, for his kindred's sake.The Later Quenta Silmarillion did add nothing to the GA entrance for 116 in which the last meeting of Ulmo and Turgon in Nevrast is told and never reached the Fall of Gondolin.

There remains one text of quite a different kind. A plot synopsis for the story of Turin given in HoME 11 in the Chapter The Wanderings of Húrin but it does not tell much: Tuor escapes from Hithlum by Cirith Ninniach and comes to Nivrost. He meets Gelmir and Arminas. Ulmo visits him on the shores by Mount Taras, and sends Voronwe to him. Tuor and Voronwe go to seek Gondolin which they reach in winter.Last but not least as we have already mentioned that text several times in the discussion we have the Tale of the Years (ToY). It has several stages of development (A to D) which I will try to give in full for the important parts. None of excerpts that we were given cover the founding of Gondolin nor the coming of Tuor to the city. Of importance is rather the second kin-slaying and the reaction of Turgon to it.
ToY A:506 The Second Kin-slaying.
507 The Fall of Gondolin. Death of King Turgon.
ToY B:509 (Spring) Second Kinslaying. Last warning of Ulmo to Gondolin.
510 The fall of Gondolin at Midsummer. Death of King Turgon. So no report of Turgons reaction in this early phases.

ToY C:511 [> 509] The Second Kinslaying. The Sons of Feanor assail[ed] Dior, and he was slain; slain also were Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir. Eldun and Elrun sons of Dior were left in the woods to starve. Elwing escaped and came with the Silmaril to the Mouths of Sirion. Ulmo sends a last warning to Gondolin, which now alone is left; but Turgon will have no alliance with any after the kinslaying of Doriath. Maeglin Eol's son, sister-son of Turgon, was taken in the hills, and betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth.
512 [> 510] The Fall of Gondolin. Death of King Turgon.Luckily the last warning of Ulmo from ToY B is gone, but therefore we get a reaction of Turgon to the assault of the Feanorians upon Dior. The interesting thing is that it has not been in the earlier stages. So it is clear that Tolkien did not copy it dully as has been argued for other such cases. He rather remembered it (probably by rereading of Q30) and put it actively into ToY C.

ToY D:506-507 At Yule Dior fought the sons of Feanor on the east marches of Doriath, and was slain. There fell also Celegorn (by Dior's hand) and Curufin and Cranthir. The cruel servants of Celegorn seize Dior's sons (Elrun and Eldun) and leave them to starve in the forest. (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir.) [In margin: Maidros repenting seeks unavailingly for the children of Dior.] The Lady Lindis escaped with Elwing, and came hardly to Ossir, with the Necklace and the Jewel. Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion.
509 Maeglin captured by spies of Melkor (Sauron?).
510 Midsummer. Assault and sack of Gondolin, owing to treachery of Maeglin who revealed where it lay.So here the reaction of Turgon to the second kin-slaying is again left out.

I hope that I cached all relevant sources. My own conclusions have to wait another day until I find time to go over all the sources collected here again.

Respectfuly
Findegil

gondowe

10-09-2014, 03:07 PM

"I hope that I cached all relevant sources. My own conclusions have to wait another day until I find time to go over all the sources collected here again."

I'll try to do the same, that is not so little.

I only want to add other sentence, that possibly influenced me very much from the very first time I read it and I think it's important to that matter.

In paragraph 235 of GA theres a sentence of Huor to Turgon very relevant (resumed):'Yet if it stands but a little while', said Huor,' then out of thy house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to thee,lord, with the eyes of death;...., from thee and me shall a new star arise. Farewell!'

(speculation) If Huor had this 'vision', what could not had Ulmo?

Greetings

Findegil

10-10-2014, 06:17 AM

Okay, the passage gondowe has mentioned has no prerunner. It arises first in GA I will give it here a bit fuller than gondowe:The day was lost, but still Huri and Huor with the men of Hador stood firm, and the Orcs could not yet win the passes of Sirion. Thus was the treachery of Uldor redressed; and the last stand of Hurin and Huor is the deed of war most renowned among the Eldar that the Fathers of Men wrought in their behalf. For Hurin spoke to Turgon saying: 'Go now, lord, while time is! For last art thou of the House of Fingolfin, and in thee lives the last hope of the Noldor. While Gondolin stands, strong and guarded, Morgoth shall still know fear in his heart.'
'Yet not long now can Gondolin be hidden, and being discovered it must fall,' said Turgon.
'Yet [a while it must stand,' said Hurin; 'for out of Gondolin >] if it stands but a little while,' said [Hurin >] Huor, 'then out of [Gondolin later >] thy house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to thee, lord, with the eyes of death; though here we part for ever, and I shall never look on thy white walls, from thee and me shall a new star arise. Farewell!'
[Struck out: Then Turgon withdrew and all the Noldor of Gondolin went back down Sirion and vanished into the hills. But all the remnant of the host of the west gathered about the brethren and held the pass behind them.]
[Added subsequently:] And [Glindur later >] Maeglin, Turgon's sister-son, who stood by heard these words and marked them well, [struck out later: and looked closely at Huor,] but said naught.
Then Turgon accepted the valiant words of the brethren, and summoning all that remained of the folk of Gondolin, and such of Fingon's host as could be gathered, he [withdrew >] fought his way southward, and escaped down Sirion, and vanished into the mountains and was hidden from the eyes of Morgoth. ...
Yes, I also think that when Huor could tell so much, we might be sure that Ulmo could have seen the future more clearly. But what did Huor presage here? With our after knowledge we see the connection to Earendil, but what could it have meant for the poeple around like Turgon and Maeglin? The reference to the Star must have been dark to every one until the events around Earendil happend. So it only could mean that the offspring of Huor and Turgon would play a significant part in the later history of Arda.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Findegil

10-10-2014, 09:05 AM

I did also forget to put one of the most important sources into the collection, the UT version of the later Tale of Tuor (TO). It does not reach the conversation between Tuor and Turgon, but we have the encounter of Tuor with Ulmo and we have some other interesting hints:‘Arise, Tuor, son of Huor!’ said Ulmo. ‘Fear not my wrath, though long have I called to thee unheard; and setting out at last thou hast tarried on thy journey hither. In the Spring thou shouldst have stood here; but now a fell winter cometh soon from the land of the Enemy. Haste thou must learn, and the pleasant road that I designed for thee must be changed. For my counsels have been scorned, and a great evil creeps upon the Valley of Sirion, and already a host of foes is come between thee and thy goal.’
‘What then is my goal, Lord?’ said Tuor.
‘That which thy heart hath ever sought,’ answered Ulmo: ‘to find Turgon, and look upon the hidden city. For thou art arrayed thus to be my messenger, even in the arms which long ago I decreed for thee. Yet now thou must under shadow pass through peril. Wrap thyself therefore in this cloak, and cast it never aside, until thou come to thy journey's end.’
Then it seemed to Tuor that Ulmo parted his grey mantle, and cast to him a lappet, and as it fell about him it was for him a great cloak wherein he might wrap himself over all, from head to foot.
‘Thus thou shall walk under my shadow,’ said Ulmo. ‘But tarry no more; for in the lands of Anar and in the fires of Melkor it will not endure. Wilt thou take up my errand?’
‘I will, Lord,’ said Tuor.
‘Then I will set words in thy mouth to say unto Turgon,’ said Ulmo. ‘But first I will teach thee, and some things thou shall hear which no Man else hath heard, nay, not even the mighty among the Eldar.’ And Ulmo spoke to Tuor of Valinor and its darkening, and the Exile of the Noldor, and the Doom of Mandos, and the hiding of the Blessed Realm. ‘But behold!’ said he, ‘in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World. Yet Doom is strong, and the shadow of the Enemy lengthens; and I am diminished, until in Middle-earth I am become now no more than a secret whisper. The waters that run westward wither, and their springs are poisoned, and my power withdraws from the land; for Elves and Men grow blind and deaf to me because of the might of Melkor. And now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfilment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they build shall crumble. The last hope alone is left, the hope that they have not looked for and have not prepared. And that hope lieth in thee; for so I have chosen.’
‘Then shall Turgon not stand against Morgoth, as all the Eldar yet hope?’ said Tuor. ‘And what wouldst thou of me, Lord, if I come now to Turgon? For though I am indeed willing to do as my father and stand by that king in his need, yet of little avail shall I be, a mortal man alone, among so many and so valiant of the High Folk of the West.‘
‘If I choose to send thee, Tuor son of Huor, then believe not that thy one sword is not worth the sending. For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which they had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness.’
And as Ulmo said these things the mutter of the storm rose to a great cry, and the wind mounted, and the sky grew black; and the mantle of the Lord of Waters streamed out like a flying cloud. ‘Go now,’ said Ulmo, ‘lest the Sea devour thee! For Ossë obeys the will of Mandos, and he is wroth, being a servant of the Doom.’
‘As thou commandest,’ said Tuor. ‘But if I escape the Doom, what words shall I say unto Turgon?’
‘If thou come to him,’ answered Ulmo, ‘then the words shall arise in thy mind, and thy mouth shall speak as I would. Speak and fear not! And thereafter do as thy heart and valour lead thee. Hold fast to my mantle, for thus shalt thou be guarded. And I will send one to thee out of the wrath of Ossë, and thus shalt thou be guided: yea, the last mariner of the last ship that shall seek into the West until the rising of the Star. Go now back to the land!’
Then there was a noise of thunder, and lightning flared over the sea; and Tuor beheld Ulmo standing among the waves as a tower of silver flickering with darting flames; and he cried against the wind:
‘I go, Lord! Yet now my heart yearneth rather to the Sea.’
...
‘I do not bid you to lead me further than the gate,’ said Tuor. ‘There Doom shall strive with the Counsel of Ulmo. And if Turgon will not receive me, then my errand will be ended, and Doom shall prevail. But as for my right to seek Turgon: I am Tuor son of Huor and kin to Húrin, whose names Turgon will not forget. And I seek also by the command of Ulmo. Will Turgon forget that which he spoke to him of old: Remember that the last hope of the Noldor cometh from the Sea? Or again: When peril is nigh one shall come from Nevrast to warn thee? I am he that should come, and I am arrayed thus in the gear that was prepared for me.’
Tuor marvelled to hear himself speak so, for the words of Ulmo to Turgon at his going from Nevrast were not known to him before, nor to any save the Hidden People. Therefore the more amazed was Voronwë; but he turned away, and looked toward the Sea, and he sighed.
...
Elemmakil saluted him and said: ‘Here have I brought Voronwë Aranwion, returning from Balar; and here is the stranger that he has led hither, who demands to see the King.’
Then Ecthelion turned to Tuor, but he drew his cloak about him and stood silent, facing him; and it seemed to Voronwë that a mist mantled Tuor and his stature was increased, so that the peak of his high hood over-topped the helm of the Elf-lord, as it were the crest of a grey sea-wave riding to the land. But Ecthelion bent his bright glance upon Tuor, and after a silence he spoke gravely, saying: ‘You have come to the Last Gate. Know then that no stranger who passes it shall ever go out again, save by the door of death.’
‘Speak not ill-boding! If the messenger of the Lord of Waters go by that door, then all those who dwell here will follow him. Lord of the Fountains, hinder not the messenger of the Lord of Waters!’
Then Voronwë and all those who stood near looked again in wonder at Tuor, marvelling at his words and voice. And to Voronwë it seemed as if he heard a great voice, but as of one who called from afar off. But to Tuor it seemed that he listened to himself speaking, as if another spoke with his mouth.
For a while Ecthelion stood silent, looking at Tuor, and slowly awe filled his face, as if in the grey shadow of Tuor's cloak he saw visions from far away. Then he bowed, and went to the fence and laid hands upon it, and gates opened inward on either side of the pillar of the Crown. . Then Tuor passed through, and coming to a high sward that looked out over the valley beyond, he beheld a vision of Gondolin amid the white snow. And so entranced was he that for long he could look at nothing else; for he saw before him at last the vision of his desire out of dreams of longing.
Thus he stood and spoke no word. Silent upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the seven kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented; but their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey. Then even as they gazed on Tuor in wonder, his cloak fell down, and he stood there before them in the mighty livery of Nevrast. And many were there who had seen Turgon himself set these things upon the wall behind the High Seat of Vinyamar.
Then Ecthelion said at last: ‘Now no further proof is needed; and even the name he claims as son of Huor matters less than this clear truth, that he comes from Ulmo himself.’The text is closely temporary to the GA and we see here only slight differences in wording between the warnings of Ulmo to Turgon and Tuor quoting them.

I will try to group and summarize the sources:
LT:
Tuor ask Turgon first to prepare for war.
When Turgon denies, Tuor urges him 'dare greatly' which only can mean to start that war and describes the terrible battle and glorious outcome if Turgon would follow the wishes of Ulmo.
When Turgon denies again, Tuor ask him to send messengers into the west to move the Valar to a war against Melkor.
Turgon denies again by reason of the former fruitless trials.

Sketch and Q I:
Tuor ask Turgon to prepare for the war since Ulmo will move the Valar to send him succour. He describes the terrible battle and glorious outcome if Turgon would follow the wishes of Ulmo. If Turgon denies he is to ask him depart with his people from Gondolin to the mouth of Sirion seeking back to Valinor by the help of Ulmo.
Q II is very similar to Q I, but we have two great differences. The first is the role of Tuor, if Turgon would do the biding of Ulmo. In the Sketch and Q I he is to go with a force to Hithlum and bring the Men of Hithlum back to an aliance with Turgon. In Q II it is to the East that he should go for the same reason and supposedly without a force of warriors.
The second is more interesting here. It is a new element in Q II, were Ulmo does suggest a reconciliation with the Feanorians. And in the same text we get for the first time Turgons vow after the second kin-slaying never to make an alliance with the Feanorians. These two elements (Ulmo asking for an alliance and Turgon later definite denial) are most clearly connected.

GA, TO and ToY:
The message was not given in full, but the wording does for me suggest that it was more than just ask Turgon to abandon Gondolin and go down to the sea. In TO Ulmo reveals to Tuor that 'now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfilment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they build shall crumble.' Even as Tuor does this could be read to mean that 'Turgon [shall] not stand against Morgoth, as all the Eldar yet hope'. But the answer of Ulmo is not straightforward. He does rather suggest that Tuors 'sword' would be crucial to the outcome of such a battle.
The mentioning of the denial of Trugon ever to build an alliance with the Feanorians in ToY C does, for me, suggest that such biding of Ulmo was at that time still present. And for what could such an alliance be good, if not for a war against Morgoth? That it is not mentioned in ToY D does not matter much to me, since it is true for many elements of the story that survived for sure. I think ToY was a kind of a working chronology for Tolkien. While writing down the different versions he put into them elements that at these moments seem important to him. In that way it is much more telling that an element is mentioned, than the missing of it in the next version.
But one part of the message is clearly gone and that we did so far not eliminate in our text (even so gondowe suggested to do so): Ulmo addresses of Voronwe in TO as 'the last mariner of the last ship that shall seek into the West until the rising of the Star.' Thus Tuor can not ask Turgon to send messengers into the west, because Ulmo foretold already that it would be worthless.
On the other hand it seems clear that Tuor has to ask Turgon (at least at the end of the conversation) to leave Gondolin, which we also so far did not put into our text.

Before I start to build a text for this section we better would find a common ground what elements we will take up. My conclusions from the text study are:
Tuor ask Turgon to prepare for a War against Morgoth (I would leave it open if he is to start that war or if he should only prepare for the war to come, no version of the text did clearly urge Turgon to an assault, even so LT hardly could be interpreted other than in that way).
Turgon denies.
Tuor speaks about the means (alliance with the Men of the east and the Feanorians, probably succour by the Valar urged to this by Ulmo) and consequences of that war (terrible battle but a chance for a real victory).
Turgon denies again.
Tuor bides him to abandon Gondolin and search refuge under Ulmos protection at Sirions mouth (he mentions unknown dangers greater than expected and a harder future for Middle-Earth if that course is taken).
Maeglin speaks against the counsel of Ulmo and Idril supports it, so she and the wiser councilors are already troubled that Turgon did not follow the original biding.
Turgon denies again by blaming the Valar for being blind and deaf against his messengers asking for help and of being not helpful so far in protecting his people against Morgoth.

Respectfuly
Findegil

gondowe

10-12-2014, 03:28 AM

Well, Thinking in your last proposal , I can assume a preparing for war of Turgon, but, I think (and all of you?) that that war must be the Last War of the First Age (called War of Wrath or whatever); and my problem would be that they must first abandon Gondolin (with children and wives) that needs a considerably preparation, and second prepare for war. This could be implicit in the counsel but it could be inserted in the text in some way (merely changing the order of words).

How wish the rest of fellows starting with Aiwendil could read and think in this matter.

Greetings.

Aiwendil

10-12-2014, 10:22 PM

I'm around and, though I haven't had time to read through the last few days' discussion yet, I intend to do so this week. Very good to see you both around!

Findegil

10-13-2014, 09:47 AM

I would like to add again one peace of effidance. We already took it up in our 'final' text of the corrosponding chapter. It comes from The History of Middle-Earth; volume 5: The Lost Road; Part 2: Valinor and Middle-Earth before The Lord of the Rings[I]; chapter VI: [I]Quenta Silmarillion with the emendations given in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 11: The War of the Jewels; part 2: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; The Last Chapters.The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after. And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords; and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by Eärendel son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.Does that not mean that at least the mission of Tuor to bring help from Men unto Turgon is still valid?

And farther it showes for me in which direction we have to think about the supposedly better outcame of the War, had Turgon follwed Ulmos advise: Imaging a host of Men under the guidiance of Tuor marching from the east to the Battle would have prefented the the Orc from being 'swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind' but forced them all to be 'perished like straw in a great fire'.

On a more general basis, I agree with gondowe that it was Ulmos intent to get the Gondolindrim out of Gondolin as sun as possible. After thinking longer about it, I am even no longer sure if the flight to the mouth of Sirion and the preparation for the battle to come wouldn't be one and the same or at least the one part of the other.

I also would like to share my thoughts about how these words of Ulmo 'Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed' could become true (even so I am sure that nothing of this will find his way into our text). At this point in history Turgon had no feud with the sons of Feanor. The feud was between the Feanorians and Doraith, which still stood. If Turgon would follow Ulmos path, he would have to form an alliance with both Thingol and the Feanorians. The only way I can see for this, is Thingol giving the Silmaril to Maedron. I would assume that Ulmo whished Turgon to akt like a moderator in this feud, while he tried to build his alliance. In the end we also know that the Silmaril had to come to Earendil soon or later, which again could only mean that Maedron would give to Earendil out of free will. Wouldn't that have been a real path of healing of Arda marred?

Respectfuly
Findegil

gondowe

10-13-2014, 12:33 PM

Turgon had feud with Fëanor (and his sons after him) of old, because the death of his wife Elenwë in the Helcaraxë. i think is said in the Shibboleth of FËanor.

Findegil

10-14-2014, 05:57 AM

Ah yes, I did forget that. Thanks for the reminder.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Findegil

10-27-2014, 01:01 PM

At long last I will put forward a draft version of the counsel Ulmo:FG-T-23 Then Turgon {king of Gondolin} <Narn King of Gondolin>, <TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol>, robed in white with a belt of gold, and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, <TO {with a}[and at his side] a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath,> stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. ‘Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was {set in our books of wisdom}[foretold by Ulmo], {and it has been written}[saying] that {there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim} <QS77 beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men> whenso thou faredst hither.’ <QS77 {and}[And] upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son, but upon his left hand sat Idril Celebrindal his daughter> <TO {and that it was to be emphasized, either when Tuor first set eyes upon Idril or at some earlier point, that}[and at the sight of her Tuor marvelled, for] he had known or even seen few women in his life. Most of the women and all the children of Annael's company in Mithrim were sent away south; and as a thrall Tuor had seen only the proud and barbarous women of the Easterlings, who treated him as a beast, or the unhappy slaves forced to labour from childhood, for whom he had only pity.>
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. FG-T-24.1{There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his}His heart is wroth FG-T-24.2{and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil,} seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. FG-T-24.3 Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to FG-T-24.4 <QS77 {And he gave}give warning to {Turgon}you that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish> and bid you number your hosts FG-T-24.6<Q30 abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people down Sirion> FG-T-24.5 and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.'
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ FG-T-24.7 And he bade Turgon again <Q30 {bidding him} to prepare for war, and battle with Morgoth ere all was lost; FG-T-24.75{and to send again his messengers into the West}<Q30; QI promising that Ulmo would win the hearts of the Valar to send him succour.>. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count. A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoth's power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>

FG-T-25.3<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.'> FG-T-25.31<Q30 But proud was Turgon become, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of {Tun}[Tirion], and he trusted in its secret and impregnable strength FG-T-25.32<QS77 , though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad>{; so that} he and the most part of his folk wished not to imperil it nor leave it, and they desired not to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without; nor did they any longer desire to return through dread and danger to the West. FG-T-25.34{Meglin}[Maeglin] spoke ever against Tuor in the councils of the king, and his words seemed the more weighty in that they went with Turgon's heart. Wherefore Turgon rejected the bidding of Ulmo; though some there were of his wisest counsellors who were filled with disquiet. Wise-hearted even beyond the measure of the daughters of Elfinesse was the daughter of the king, and she spoke ever for Tuor, though it did not avail, and her heart was heavy. Very fair and tall was she, well nigh of warrior's stature, and her hair was a fountain of gold. Idril was she named, and called Celebrindal, Silver-foot, for the whiteness of her foot; and she walked and danced ever unshod in the white ways and green lawns of Gondolin.>
FG-T-25.5 But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long FG-T-25.53{ages}[years] gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that FG-T-25.54{men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of Kôr and the Gods sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of Melko, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite Melko, and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’} <Q30{But} if {Turgon}you would not go forth to this war, then {he}you should abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people down Sirion, and build there {his }fleets and seek back to Valinor and the mercy of the {Gods}[Valar]. But in this counsel there {was}is danger more dire than in the other, though so it might not seem; and grievous thereafter would be the fate of the Outer Lands.’
This errand Ulmo performed out of his love of the Elves, and because he knew that ere many years were passed the doom of Gondolin would come, if its people sat still behind its walls; not thus should anything of joy or beauty in the world be preserved from Morgoth's malice.> FG-T-24.91 Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished]>.
Then said Turgon: ‘FG-T-25.57{Every year}[Ever and anon] at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and FG-T-25.58{at the coming of next year}[now] no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’
Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea. But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01 <GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>.
Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin. FG-TG-01.5 <QS77{but}

But in the warning of Ulmo Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore FG-T-26.7 in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood.FG-T-25.33<QS77 Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>

>Of all Tuor's deeds among the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] the tales tell not, ...Comments:
FG-T-23: This complete paragraph was already discussed and agreed. I add it only for completness.
FG-T-24: This marks only were the counsel of Ulmo (and the troule with it) begins.
FG-T-24.1: That Ulmo knowest of Gondolin is a given fact in our version, therefore this must go.
FG-T-24.2: Earlier when he spoke to Tuor in Vinyamar Ulmo said that he did send Tuor against the will of the other Valar. Therefore he should not mention them here.
FG-T-24.3: This first part of the sentence was skipt by gondowe, but I think it should be kept.
FG-T-24.4: I put the warning first, to give it more wiegth.
FG-T-24.6 & FG-T-24.5: As result of our discussion so far I think that the emphasis should lay on leaving the city therefore I changed the posistions of these two.
FG-T-25: As explained earlier I think that Turgons first 'No' should come here to urge Tuor on to say more about the battle to come. Therefore the editing marks are hereafter no longer numbered in a stright forward fashion, but stick to the text fragments to which they were first applied.
FG-T-24.7: Here I used a big part of Q30 which is the latest telling we have. And I tried not to fragment its as much as we have done before.
FG-T-24.75: The biding to send again mesengers has to go since Ulmo already told Tuor in Vinyamar that Voronwe is the last until Earendil. But I took up the promis of Ulmo to move the Valar to succuor Turgon, because Ulmo does try exactly that when Tuor has brought the remants of Gondolin to Sirions moth.
FG-T-25.3: If we want to put in FG-T-25.34 from Q30 with Maeglin speaking against Tuor, we need an intro here. And even so I am a bit reluctant to use that source QS77 is the best we can find and it is a nice echo of the words of Ulmo which come ultimatley from GA.
FG-T-25.31: At this point at last we know were the text from QS77 comes from.
FG-T-25.32: This change is questionable. It does bring the original text of Q30 to the text found in QS77. The text sound better to my ear, but we can consider it as a change for style only and reject it.
FG-T-25.34: I kept the editing mark even so it seems useless know.
FG-T-25.5: Here we have the second dinial of Turgon from the original FoG.
FG-T-25.53: The ages are out of question. I wonder how they ever fited the time frame of LT.
FG-T-25.54: Agian the messengers that must go see FG-T-24.2. But what follows is now Ulmos second best choice for Turgon taken from Q30: If war is not wanted then flight might prevent the worst. And I in addition took up Ulmos motive for biding Turgon.
FG-T-24.91: I think that here is the right place to end Tuors mission. He has brought forward all choices and arguments that Ulmo could give.
FG-T-25.57: When Voronwe was the last, then Turgon can no longer say 'Every year'. But the meaning of 'to often' should be kept.
FG-T-26: Not sure of this verys old change. It is rather one of style.
FG-T-25.58: See FG-T-25.57.
FG-GT-01: This was already agreed upon. We need an intro for FG-T-26.7 which in its turn is needed for the story of Húrin in WH.
FG-T-25.33: This we can probably leave out, but I found it very fitting as closer to the debate of Turgon and Tuor.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Findegil

10-28-2014, 06:18 AM

I would like to add to small passages even so that goes against my own counsel not to fragment the text as much as we have done before.
FG-T-24.77: The first deals with Tuor's role. As we agreed that the most improtant part for Ulmo was the fathering of Earendil, it might be necessary to emphasis that Tuor was never supposed to leave Gondolin at once to search for an allaince with men. This was made clear in the Sketch. I would add it in this way:...
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ FG-T-24.7 And he bade Turgon again <Q30 {bidding him} to prepare for war, and battle with Morgoth ere all was lost; FG-T-24.75{and to send again his messengers into the West.}<Q30; QI promising that Ulmo would win the hearts of the Valar to send him succour.> FG-T-24.77 <S If Turgon {does}did {Ylmir}'s will Tuor {is}[u]was to abide a while in Gondolin>, but summons{Summons} too should {he}Turgon send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Húrin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count. A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoth's power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
...

FG-T-25.55: The other comes from Q30 version QI. It might be a minor point only, but I think that the promise of Ulmo to help building the fleet is improtant. We know alrady that the messengers of Turgon needed the help of Cirdan to build their ships and learn how to use them. But none of them reached Valinor. So it seem important that Ulmo would promise some help, otherwise that option would be considered hopless any how:...
FG-T-25.5 But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long FG-T-25.53{ages}[years] gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that FG-T-25.54{men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of Kôr and the Gods sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of Melko, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite Melko, and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’} <Q30; QII{But} if {Turgon}you would not go forth to this war, then {he}you should abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people down Sirion, FG-T-25.55<Q30; QI ere Morgoth could oppose him, and at Sirion's mouth Ulmo would befriend him, and lend his aid to the building of a mighty fleet wherein the {Gnomes}[Noldor] should> {and build there his fleets and} seek back to Valinor and the mercy of the {Gods}[Valar]. But in this counsel there {was}is danger more dire than in the other, though so it might not seem; and grievous thereafter would be the fate of the Outer Lands.’
This errand Ulmo performed out of his love of the Elves, and because he knew that ere many years were passed the doom of Gondolin would come, if its people sat still behind its walls; not thus should anything of joy or beauty in the world be preserved from Morgoth's malice.> FG-T-24.91 Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished]>.
...
I would like to add one thought here that seems also to have some impact: Ulmo had no full preknowledge of Earendils role! In 33 Of the Voyage of Eärendil it is reported, that when the fugitives of Gondolin and Doriath mingeld at the Havens of Sirion Ulmo himslef spoke to the Valar 'and he called on them to forgive and send succour unto them and rescue them from the overmastering might of Morgoth'. If it would have been clear for Ulmo that Earendils role was that of the messenger in person pleading for pity and forgivness, why then make this worthless try? So the natural conclusion is that he had great knowledge about Earendils vieta: the first to sail a ship back to Valinor, carrying the Silmaril on his brow into the sky as a new star; but no clear vision of the importance of his first arrival in Valinor.

Respectfuly
Findegil

gondowe

12-08-2014, 04:17 AM

Sorry for the delay, but my lack of time is frustrating. I would like to work in this project with all my strength.
I had time to read the proposals above and compare. I think that the two "new" texts are redundant or against my point of view expressed before. But this is my opinion. What do they think the other fellows?

As for:
"I would like to add one thought here that seems also to have some impact: Ulmo had no full preknowledge of Earendils role! In 33 Of the Voyage of Eärendil it is reported, that when the fugitives of Gondolin and Doriath mingeld at the Havens of Sirion Ulmo himslef spoke to the Valar 'and he called on them to forgive and send succour unto them and rescue them from the overmastering might of Morgoth'. If it would have been clear for Ulmo that Earendils role was that of the messenger in person pleading for pity and forgivness, why then make this worthless try? So the natural conclusion is that he had great knowledge about Earendils vieta: the first to sail a ship back to Valinor, carrying the Silmaril on his brow into the sky as a new star; but no clear vision of the importance of his first arrival in Valinor."

But Manwe said "No". Again a speculation but possibly Ulmo wanted, for a desperately last time, to avoid the last deeds that could happen (and happened). So I think is still valid that text. But another way is to delete it in that chapter 33.

Greetings.

Findegil

12-09-2014, 01:01 PM

Ah gondowe, good to have your input again. I felt abit alone in this discussion and it seems I have overdone it a bit.

To make things easier, we should work first in outlines. The outline I follwed making my preposal had been (I added the two points mention from my last post):
- Tuor ask Turgon to prepare for a War against Morgoth (I would leave it open if he is to start that war or if he should only prepare for the war to come, no version of the text did clearly urge Turgon to an assault, even so LT hardly could be interpreted other than in that way).
- Turgon denies.
- Tuor speaks about the means (alliance with the Men of the east build by the help of Tuor after a time of abiding in Gondolin and the Feanorians, probably succour by the Valar urged to this by Ulmo) and consequences of that war (terrible battle but a chance for a real victory).
- Turgon denies again.
- Tuor bides him to abandon Gondolin and search refuge under Ulmos protection at Sirions mouth and build with Ulmos help a fleet to sail back to Valinor (he mentions unknown dangers greater than expected and a harder future for Middle-Earth if that course is taken).
- Maeglin speaks against the counsel of Ulmo and Idril supports it, so she and the wiser councilors are already troubled that Turgon did not follow the original biding.
- Turgon denies again by blaming the Valar for being blind and deaf against his messengers asking for help and of being not helpful so far in protecting his people against Morgoth.

Since my argument did not convince you, I think you still wish to have Tour bid Turgon to abandon Gondolin from the first (right?). I myself find now that my arguemnts if take serois most mean that Ulmo can't ask Turgon to build a fleet, if he already fortold that Voronwe's ship was the last before Earendil.
To combine this, would that outline be okay for anybody:
- Tuor ask Turgon to prepare his people to abandon Gondolin and by that prepare for the War against Morgoth to come.
- Turgon denies.
- Tuor speaks about the means by which that war should be prepared (alliance with the Men of the east build by the help of Tuor after a time of abiding in Gondolin and the Feanorians, probably succour by the Valar urged to this by Ulmo) and consequences of that war (terrible battle but a chance for a real victory).
- Turgon denies again.
- Tuor bides him to abandon Gondolin and search refuge under Ulmos protection at Sirions mouth (he mentions unknown dangers greater than expected and a harder future for Middle-Earth if that course is taken).
- Maeglin speaks against the counsel of Ulmo and Idril supports it, so she and the wiser councilors are already troubled that Turgon did not follow the original biding.
- Turgon denies again by blaming the Valar for being blind and deaf against his messengers asking for help and of being not helpful so far in protecting his people against Morgoth.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Aiwendil

12-10-2014, 12:09 PM

Apologies again for my lack of input. I should definitely have time over the Christmas break to get back into the discussion, but likely not before then.

gondowe

12-11-2014, 03:01 PM

Well, for the construction I still think that grouping all Tuor's message in only one paragraph before the cloak of Ulmo vanish is better. And then only one and definitely denie of Turgon.
But in the end is the same "history information", so I think that agree for my part.

Greetings

Aiwendil

05-31-2015, 07:17 PM

I've reviewed the discussion to remind myself of where things stand.

Concerning Findegil's most recent proposed text, I have a few qualms; but perhaps it's not worth going into the gritty details if, as Findegil subsequently suggested, we are going to first try to agree on an outline.

Findegil, in your proposed outline, as in your text, you have Turgon refuse the counsel of war twice. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any precedent for this in any of the texts. The outline that I would be inclined to follow would be:

- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory).
- Turgon refuses this first counsel.
- Tuor bids him abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this advice.
- Turgon refuses this second counsel.

(I also have quibbles with the placement of certain text, which I think creates redundancies in your latest proposal, but perhaps we should agree on an outline first).

I think this also more closely matches Gondowe's desired outline, with the exception of the first refusal of Turgon coming in between the counsel of war and the counsel of abandonment.

Findegil

06-01-2015, 03:37 AM

My outline with the double denial follows the Lost Tale version more or less.

But does not matter much since we are now beyond taking that one. Your proposal, Aiwendil, does bear the problem that it neither will serve gondowe's desire to have Turgon only once deny Tuor's biding nor does it take into account that it might be that there probably now no difrence between prepairing for war and prepairing for flight to the sea.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Aiwendil

06-01-2015, 08:25 AM

My outline with the double denial follows the Lost Tale version more or less.

Ah, yes, I see that now.

But does not matter much since we are now beyond taking that one. Your proposal, Aiwendil, does bear the problem that it neither will serve gondowe's desire to have Turgon only once deny Tuor's biding nor does it take into account that it might be that there probably now no difrence between prepairing for war and prepairing for flight to the sea.

I'm not convinced that there is now no difference between preparing for war and preparing for flight to the sea. Can you explain your reasons for coming to this conclusion?

Findegil

06-01-2015, 04:12 PM

It was based on gondowe's input. If we accept that Ulmos first intent was to lead the Gondolindrim out of Gondolin than for me that means together with the promise of Ulmo that the Valar would send help for the battle against Morgoth, that the starting point for such a battle cold only be near the sea. And in which other place than the havens of Sirion would Turgon find a safe place for his people in that time?

Respectfuly
Findegil

Aiwendil

06-02-2015, 11:31 AM

I'm afraid that, to me, it seems too great a liberty and too large a leap for us to insert explicit direction for Turgon to leave Gondolin in the counsel of war. I agree that the abandonment of Gondolin may be implied in the urging to war. But if it is implied already, then I don't think we do any harm by omitting explicit mention of it.

If Gondowe is adamantly against having any interruption by Turgon between, perhaps we could adopt the following outline:

- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory).
- Tuor further says that if Turgon refuses this counsel, then he should abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this (the latter) advice.
- Turgon refuses both the first counsel and the second counsel.

I do hope Gondowe will return at some point and explain his reluctance for the two counsels to be separated by Turgon's first refusal.

gondowe

08-10-2015, 02:16 PM

Hello again, as I said in the General comments thread, recently discovered that the forum was running on again. So:

I do hope Gondowe will return at some point and explain his reluctance for the two counsels to be separated by Turgon's first refusal.

I said in a previous post that I agreed with last Findegil's text in the history information. I thought (and I think) was better because Ulmo's message must be (in my opinion, in the "last" conception, no that of LT) in only one breath and then the cloak vanish. And for me narratively looks better. But, repeat, I agree with Findegil's text, it tells the same at the end.

Greetings.

Arvegil145

08-27-2015, 01:22 AM

Just a minor thing to get off my mind.

What do you make of the characters of Hendor and Meleth. More specifically, their names. Meleth appears later as the daughter of Hiril and Enthor of Brethil, so I guess the name is still valid in respect to the later development of Tolkien's languages.

I'm not sure about Hendor. Since I am no expert considering the linguistic studies of Tolkien's legendarium, it would be nice if someone with greater knowledge than me would jump in on the matter.

Not trying to sound too intrusive, simply trying to shed some light on specific matters that I noticed were not discussed before.

Findegil

08-28-2015, 07:49 AM

As I am not linguistic expert myself, I can only tell you that we kept both names, without any discussion. That normaly would point out to the fact that the linguists about us felt them still possibly valid in later sindarin. (At least the names did not cry for attention like 'Rog'.)

Respectfuly
Findegil

Arvegil145

09-09-2015, 06:14 AM

Concerning Ulmo's message - I think it should stand as it is. After all, Turgon is the last significant threat to Morgoth, and even if he, by himself, cannot stand alone against Angband, it could still mean that he (along with other potential allies) could gather all of his forces to a safer refuge (say, Balar) and then wait for the aid of the Valar - which would mean a substantial help would come to the Host of the West when they arrive to the Beleriand - and Turgon would indeed be haled as one of the greatest heroes of the War of Wrath - nonetheless, in the end, the Doom of Mandos was inevitable.

Findegil

09-09-2015, 09:18 AM

Can you please specify what you mean by:it should stand as it isWhich Version is meant here?

Respectfuly
Findegil

Arvegil145

09-11-2015, 12:12 PM

Can you please specify what you mean by:Which Version is meant here?

The one from the Lost Tales.

Arvegil145

09-11-2015, 12:13 PM

Also, I would like to add the essay "Glorfindel" from the PoME - I think it would add a nice touch to the story.

Findegil

09-12-2015, 05:29 PM

To take the Lost Tale verssion of the conversation between Tuor and Turgon is out of question as the discussion stands now.

We have Aiwendil's last outline:
- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory).
- Tuor further says that if Turgon refuses this counsel, then he should abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this (the latter) advice.
- Turgon refuses both the first counsel and the second counsel.

I have right now no time to try that out, but I would propose that we could serve the result of the discussion better, if we could avoid that abandon Gondolin is only the counsel if Turgon will not prepare for war.

The essay Glorfindel might be an ingredent in a part of the second age material but for sure not in FoG.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Aiwendil

09-23-2015, 03:45 PM

I said in a previous post that I agreed with last Findegil's text in the history information. I thought (and I think) was better because Ulmo's message must be (in my opinion, in the "last" conception, no that of LT) in only one breath and then the cloak vanish. And for me narratively looks better. But, repeat, I agree with Findegil's text, it tells the same at the end.

Yes, but I think we had already rejected Findegil's most recent text and decided to first agree on an outline. The outline I proposed, which I still would advocate, is:

- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory).
- Tuor further says that if Turgon refuses this counsel, then he should abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this (the latter) advice.
- Turgon refuses both the first counsel and the second counsel.

Concerning Ulmo's message - I think it should stand as it is. After all, Turgon is the last significant threat to Morgoth, and even if he, by himself, cannot stand alone against Angband, it could still mean that he (along with other potential allies) could gather all of his forces to a safer refuge (say, Balar) and then wait for the aid of the Valar - which would mean a substantial help would come to the Host of the West when they arrive to the Beleriand - and Turgon would indeed be haled as one of the greatest heroes of the War of Wrath - nonetheless, in the end, the Doom of Mandos was inevitable.

How do you feel about the outline suggested above? I think that this still captures what you describe here.

I have right now no time to try that out, but I would propose that we could serve the result of the discussion better, if we could avoid that abandon Gondolin is only the counsel if Turgon will not prepare for war.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but it sounds like you are saying you want to follow the idea that if Turgon prepared for war, that would also involve abandoning Gondolin. I would much rather not explicitly say that.

Findegil

09-23-2015, 04:50 PM

My problem with your outline, Aiwendil, is exactly that Tuor does provide Turgon with an alternative, if he would not wage that war he is advocating in Ulmo's name. I think the difference is bit the opposit of Yoda saying that you should not try, you should do it.

I mean, that if we press the counsel to go war and to leave Gondolin together in on speach of Tuor, then we should avoid presenting them as alternatives. I would agree to an 'at least' but not an 'if ... then'.

Respectfully
Findegil

Findegil

09-25-2015, 08:16 AM

Okay, reading some of the older postings brougth mer back into this discussion. May be summary is agian needed:
- At first Maedhros, Aiwendil agreed not to take up the counsel of Ulmo that Turgon should wage a war against Morgoth. I consented to this but with reservations.
- Later Aiwendil found that probably the urging to prepare for a war should be included, but gondowe had joined the group and had some reservations about that. So my Feeling from the arguemnts of gondowe is that he is more concerned with the importance of parts of the counsel then with leaving the war out completly.
- Now Arvegil145 has joined and is for including the counsel of war.

So at least we have overcome the patt situation. :confused:

It seems to me that we all agree now to Ulmo asking Turgon to prepare for war, even so that might not be the most important part of the message.

But going back to my own counsel to work with arguments based on supporting textual evidence:
The pricipals say that the younger the text, the more wigth it should have, so we might start with the passage in Grey Annals were Ulmo speaks to Turgon. Ulmo clearly warns Turgon that Gondolin will not stand for ever against Melkor, because of the Doom of Mandos. And that if the time come near that he will send Tuor. This seems to me the strongest support for gondowe's point of view, that the main motive of Ulmos counsel is to remove the Gondolidrim from the city.
In the speach form Ulmo to Tuor we hear that Tuor sword is worth sending, which I would call a support for a forseen warlike out come by Ulmo.
Later when Tuor speaks to Voronwë he Shows knowledge of the conversation between Ulmo and Turgon, that only the Gondolindrim (and Ulmo of course) had. I think from this Christopher Tolkien took the idea for Sil77 of recalling the Ulmo's words in Tuor meassage 'And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish' and in Turgons pondering 'and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar ...'.
When Ulmo revales to Turgon, that their is no hope in the war against Melkor with out the help from the west, than this can only mean:
- Had Turgon followed the biding of Ulmo (what ever that had included), the out come would have been better then what is seen at the end of the 1. Age. (Other wise the biding would be sensless.)
- Anyhow the overcome of Melkor would only be contrived with the help from the west.
- So what ever exactly Ulmo asked Turgon to do, it would not have avoided the destruction/derssertion of Gondolin it would have changed the War of Wrath and ist out come.

From the early source Prose fragment of the Tale of Tuor [HoME IV; chapter 1;i] we learn that, Ulmo proberbly did know that only a messager speaking in person for the Noldor and pleading for pardon would change the mind of the Valar and bring them to aid the people of Middle-earth against Melkor (This I have denied in previous posting, but I now see that I might have been wrong.) Thus I agree to gondowe that bring about the birth of Earendil was the most important intention of Ulmo's dealing with Tuor and Turgon. That this motive was still valid might be guesses from the persage of Huor and the vision of Cirdan about the rising star.
Thus if Ulmo ask Turgon to send again messangers to Valinor after he removed from Gondolin, he is speaking of Earendil and nobody else.

But again, if Turgon ist asked to do something by Ulmo the achievement of that deed must have be benevolent in some way.
With this input what might have been the result if Turgon would have followed (this is spectlaution only but it might help to understand my point of view):
- Turgon starts to perpare his folk to leave Gondolin
- Tuor stays for a time an fathers Earendil.
- Turgon starts to make alliances with all Elves left in Beleriand.
- They remove from Gondolin before it is attaced.
- Tuor is sent to the east an gather Men to the help in the battle to come.
- With the intact force of Gondolin at the mouth of Sirion and allainces fromed between Turgon and Maedhros the third kin-slain would have been impossible.
- Earendil would in the end have been reached Valinor (probably later, after taking his wife and the Silmaril onto his ship, only because she would no longer stay alone at home).
- War of Wrath with the help of Men from the East, the Gondolindrim from the south and probably the Feanorian from the south-west. => Melkors Forces completly destroyed.

With that in mind, it would be most important to leave Gondolin before the attac, because otherwise (as is seen in FoG) Earendil is in danger of being killed and with him the sole hope of secure for the Elves of Beleriand.

Now all this rambling leads in my mind at least to the follwoing outline:
- Tuor bides Turgon to abandon Gondolin, search refuge under Ulmos protection at Sirions mouth (he mentions unknown dangers greater than expected and a harder future for Middle-Earth if only that course is taken) and bides Turgon farther to prepare for the War against Morgoth to come.
- Tuor speaks about the means by which that war should be prepared (alliance with the Men of the east build by the help of Tuor after a time of abiding in Gondolin and alliance with the Feanorians, probably succour by the Valar urged to this by Ulmo, but in the end only archivable through a messanger from the Gondlindrim [Earendil]) and consequences of that war (terrible battle but a chance for a real victory).
- When Tuor Ends his speach the mantle of Ulmo desapears.
- Maeglin speaks against the counsel of Ulmo and Idril supports it.
- Turgon denies again by blaming the Valar for being blind and deaf against his messengers asking for help and of being not helpful so far in protecting his people against Morgoth.
- Idril and the wiser councilors are troubled that Turgon did not follow the biding.

Is that helpfull?

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil

10-04-2015, 01:48 PM

I suppose I'm just not convinced, even if the counsel of war includes the abandonment of Gondolin, that it necessarily includes the specific instructions to go down to Sirion's mouths. Moreover, I'm still not really convinced that the counsel of war necessarily involves the abandonment of Gondolin.

My problem with your outline, Aiwendil, is exactly that Tuor does provide Turgon with an alternative, if he would not wage that war he is advocating in Ulmo's name. I think the difference is bit the opposit of Yoda saying that you should not try, you should do it.

I mean, that if we press the counsel to go war and to leave Gondolin together in on speach of Tuor, then we should avoid presenting them as alternatives. I would agree to an 'at least' but not an 'if ... then'.

Let me try to add some logic to my earlier outline to show how I think it makes sense.

- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory). It is not explicitly said, at this point, whether such a war would involve abandoning Gondolin, but perhaps this is understood to be implied.
- Tuor further says that if Turgon refuses to go to war, then he should (still) abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this (the latter) advice.
- Turgon refuses both the first counsel and the second counsel.

So if you want to interpret it in such a way that the counsel of war involves abandoning Gondolin, then Ulmo is saying (through Tuor): "Even if you refuse to do the war thing, you should still at least do the part where you abandon your city and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.

Findegil

10-05-2015, 10:35 AM

Yes, formulated in such a way I at least can agree to your outline, Aiwendil.

What about the others? Gondowe? Arvegil145?
If both of you agree I will try to make a draft from this outline.

Respectfully
Findegil

Arvegil145

10-05-2015, 12:24 PM

I agree.

Findegil

10-09-2015, 04:35 PM

Earlier as I aspected, I got a chance to make a draft. Here we go:FG-T-23 Then Turgon {king of Gondolin} <Narn King of Gondolin>, <TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol>, robed in white with a belt of gold, and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, <TO {with a}[and at his side] a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath,> stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. ‘Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was {set in our books of wisdom}[foretold by Ulmo], {and it has been written}[saying] that {there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim} <QS77 beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men> whenso thou faredst hither.’ <QS77 {and}[And] upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son, but upon his left hand sat Idril Celebrindal his daughter> <TO {and that it was to be emphasized, either when Tuor first set eyes upon Idril or at some earlier point, that}[and at the sight of her Tuor marvelled, for] he had known or even seen few women in his life. Most of the women and all the children of Annael's company in Mithrim were sent away south; and as a thrall Tuor had seen only the proud and barbarous women of the Easterlings, who treated him as a beast, or the unhappy slaves forced to labour from childhood, for whom he had only pity.>
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. FG-T-24.1{There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his}His heart is wroth FG-T-24.2{and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, }seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. FG-T-24.3Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to FG-T-24.4<QS77 {And he gave}give warning to {Turgon}you that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish> and FG-T-24.5 bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’ FG-T-24.55<Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West>; FG-T-24.57<Q30; QI promising that Ulmo would win the hearts of the Valar to send him succour.> FG-T-24.77 <S If Turgon {does}did {Ylmir}'s will Tuor {is}was to abide a while in Gondolin>FG-T-24.79<Q30 {Summons}[u], but summons too should {he}Turgon send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> FG-T-25{
Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of Melko.’
}Then spake Tuor: ‘{Nay, if}If thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ FG-T-24.8<Q30 A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, FG-T-24.9 but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoth’s power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.> FG-T-24.95{
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but}And Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘{Then am }I am bidden to say that at least FG-T-24.6<Q30 abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people> {men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and} secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, FG-T-25.65<Q30; QI ere Morgoth could oppose {him}you, and at Sirion's mouth Ulmo {would}will befriend {him}you, and lend his aid to the building of>{and there build them} boats and {go}to seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.{’} FG-T-25.67<Q30 But in this counsel there {was}is danger more dire than in the other, though so it might not seem; and grievous thereafter would be the fate of the Outer Lands.’
This errand Ulmo performed out of his love of the Elves, and because he knew that ere many years were passed the doom of Gondolin would come, if its people sat still behind its walls; not thus should anything of joy or beauty in the world be preserved from Morgoth's malice.> FG-T-24.91 Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25.3< QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.'> FG-T-25.31< Q30 But proud was Turgon become, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of {Tun}[Tirion], and he trusted in its secret and impregnable strength FG-T-25.32[b]< QS77 , though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad>{; so that} he and the most part of his folk wished not to imperil it nor leave it, and they desired not to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without; nor did they any longer desire to return through dread and danger to the West. FG-T-25.34{Meglin}[Maeglin] spoke ever against Tuor in the councils of the king, and his words seemed the more weighty in that they went with Turgon's heart. Wherefore Turgon rejected the bidding of Ulmo; though some there were of his wisest counsellors who were filled with disquiet. Wise-hearted even beyond the measure of the daughters of Elfinesse was the daughter of the king, and she spoke ever for Tuor, though it did not avail, and her heart was heavy. Very fair and tall was she, well nigh of warrior's stature, and her hair was a fountain of gold. Idril was she named, and called Celebrindal, Silver-foot, for the whiteness of her foot; and she walked and danced ever unshod in the white ways and green lawns of Gondolin.>
FG-T-25.35<[b]moved from above Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’> FG-T-25.36<moved from above{But}And Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long FG-T-25.53{ages}[years] gone>. Then said Turgon: ‘{Every}Many year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea. But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01 <GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>.
Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin. FG-TG-01.5 <QS77
But in the warning of Ulmo Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood. FG-T-25.33< QS77 Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>

>Of all Tuor's deeds among the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] the tales tell not, …Comments to my changes, most are repeated but I thought it might help to collect them here:
FG-T-23: This complete paragraph was already discussed and agreed. I add it only for completness.
FG-T-24: This marks only were the counsel of Ulmo (and the troule with it) begins.
FG-T-24.1: That Ulmo knowest of Gondolin is a given fact in our version, therefore part of this must go. But why gondowe took out so much he never explained.
FG-T-24.2: Earlier when he spoke to Tuor in Vinyamar Ulmo said that he did send Tuor against the will of the other Valar. Therefore he should not mention them here.
FG-T-24.3: The first part of the sentence was skipt by gondowe, but I think it should be kept.
FG-T-24.4: I put the warning first, to give it more wiegth.
FG-T-24.6 & FG-T-24.5: These two are back in the position they had have.
FG-T-24.55: If the voyage of Eärendil ist he final goal, then if Turgon would follow Ulmos biding Turgon is to send him.
FG-T-24.57: I took this up. It is not absolutley necessary, but as Ulmo does know quite well that Turgon had send many meassangers without availe, he should ofer some help to make the quest less hopeless.
FG-T-24.77: This deals with Tuor's role. As we agreed that the most improtant part for Ulmo was the fathering of Earendil, it might be necessary to emphasis that Tuor was never supposed to leave Gondolin at once to search for an allaince with men. This was made clear in the Sketch.
FG-T-24.79: As FG-T-24.77 splited this addition I added this to make more clear where this text comes from.
FG-T-25: Okay we agreed to have only one answer from Turgon.
The editing marks are hereafter no longer numbered in a stright forward fashion, but stick to the text fragments to which they were first applied.
FG-T-24.8: Here I used a big part of Q30 which is the latest telling we have.
FG-T-24.9: As Ulmos counsel to war is back, he might also promise victory.
FG-T-24.95: Again we skip Turgons answer.
FG-T-24.6 & FG-T-24.65: Here at last we make the counsel explicit to leave Gondolin. The passage from Q30, QI add to make it more urgent.
FG-T-25.67: We lost that part of the greater danger if flight only was the course, but I thought it belongs here.
FG-T-24.91: I think that here is the right place to end Tuors mission. He has brought forward all choices and arguments that Ulmo could give. As wished in one long statement.
FG-T-25.3: If we want to put in FG-T-25.34 from Q30 with Maeglin speaking against Tuor, we need an intro here. And even so I am a bit reluctant to use that source QS77 is the best we can find and it is a nice echo of the words of Ulmo which come ultimatley from GA.
FG-T-25.31: At this point at last we know were the text from QS77 comes from.
FG-T-25.32: This change is questionable. It does bring the original text of Q30 to the text found in QS77. The text sound better to my ear, but we can consider it as a change for style only and reject it.
FG-T-25.35 & FG-T-25.36: Here I took together the answeres of Turgon.
FG-T-25.53: The ages are out of question. I wonder how they ever fited the time frame of LT.
FG-T-26: Not sure of this verys old change. It is rather one of style.
FG-GT-01 & FG-GT-01.5: This was already agreed upon.
FG-T-25.33: This we can probably leave out, but I found it very fitting as closer to the debate of Turgon and Tuor.

Respectfully
Findegil