**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I see where CRRT is savaged for this, in terms of some ending that ain't right. I'm only reaching the end of HoME IV, and know of the debate about how the Dwarves inexplicably entered Doriath, but should not have been able to do so, because of the Girdle of Melian.

But didn't she depart immediate at Thingol's murder, or is it not unreasonable to assume the idea of traitors among the Elves of Doriath, per severa earlier iterations. This is in earlier stories, but sometimes earlier stuff if not formally rejected was only omitted from CRRT's manuscript, and can be cut and pasted back in, such that you rely not solely an late HoME, ala FoG even from the all but discarded BoLT.


mod note [ I removed 'How' as the first word in the title of the thread as I would rather the forum be responsible for posing the question than stating that it was so. -lindil

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

I have once again re-named this thread to allow and encourage pre-group project work on the Ruin of Doriath. Sorry for the double takeover Man of the Wold smilies/wink.gif ]

[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[lindil]

If I follow you correctly, Man of the Wold, then you are proposing using BolT and HoME 4 to create our own Ruin of Doriath. This may well happen and has been mentioned offhandedly. We simply have not reached a place where we are actively brainstorming for the Ruin of Doriath.

Indeed the Fall of Gondolin has proved so complex that we will almost certainly look for some easy chapters for a while after it!

also I know of no one here who thinks CJRT butchered the Silm chapter in question. I think he did quite well with the resources at hand and I for one am not one to rule using it as a basis for our chapter.

He himself expresses reservations at having gone so far as to create up a couple of scenes from whole cloth, but to my mind and ear they ring true.

The War of the Jewels [HoME XI] - pt 3 ch V [The Tale of Years] is needed to understand the full complexity of the situation JRRT left in the form of outlines for the Doriath chapter.

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I was not suggesting but rather inquiring into the nature of the controversy.

Thanks, I recognize that it is not so one-sided. Perhaps, just improve on CRT's work based on what is in the Grey Annals and what not, which I have yet to read directly.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I too, liked C.T's version of Doriath. Is there any infprmation on the sacking, apart form what's in Bolt 2 and The War of the Jewel's? Mor eimportantly the Tolkien intend for the Ent's to aid Beren's assualt against the Nogrodian Dwarves?

[Aiwendil]

Other than what's in XI and the hopelessly outdated version found in II, the only other accounts of the sacking of Doriath are probably the very compressed versions found in the Sketch of the Mythology and the Quenta Noldorinwa. As for the Ents, the evidence for their inclusion is from one of the Letters, though I don't recall the number.

[lindil]

More importantly the Tolkien intend for the Ent's to aid Beren's assualt against the Nogrodian Dwarves?

As aiwendil answered, yes he did.

Just to let those who do not have [or have not read HoME 11] get some idea of the final picture I will try and provide a summary of what we are left with.

CJRT collected all that could salvaged from JRRT's work for the concluding sections in the Silm and placed them in the "tale of Years" section of HoME XI wherein he lists the long string of sketches for the resolution of the LQS [Later Quenta Silmarillion]. It is from this that CJRT drew much [but not all] of the inspiration for his version off the Ruin of Doriath. What JRRT did not postulate and CJRT [ with Guy Kay] invented to reconcile imbedded contradictions, was Thingol's murder by the Dwarves already in Menegroth.

This explained how the Dwarves were able to enter the Girdle, which other wise was left unresolved by JRRT. He also removed Hurin's companions [ who are very much intact and likely to be involved somehow at least up to Hurin's recovering the nauglamir from Menegroth] and their bringing a hard to mengroth, CJRT reduced the hoard of Nargothrond/Glaurang to just the Nauglamir.

I think the main thing we can do for this section is to mesh [ or rather preface] the Wanderings of Hurin into the Ruin as far as the texts will allow. It [i]could be that bits of BoLT 2 will aid this. I have not really perused the problem in detail, leaving it till FOG is complete [at the earliest], other options are to peice together a RoD from JRRT's sketches, the Q30, sketch and BoLT. A truly daunting hodge podge and possibly fruitless undertaking.

CJRT's version has many merits:
- it removes a contradiction which JRRT never satisfactorily resolved.
- It reads extremely well [imo], condensed though it is and is extremely plausible.
- it is already written [!] and was for over a decade accepted as THE Ruin of Doriath, and still is for most folks who have not read HoME 2, 4 or 11.

Personally, interesting topic though it is I probably will not be adding any more to the conversation till the group get's there.

That being said though, we might as well make this an official **Ruin of Doriath speculation thread** if others however, want to continue exploring the possiblilities.

[ January 09, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Aiwendil]

I think that the whole Ruin of Doriath mess may be profitably boiled down to two fundamental problems:

1. The conflict between "The Wanderings of Hurin" and all previous narratives; particularly, the point of transition from 'Wanderings' as the latest text to the 'Quenta' as the latest text (I believe CRT refers to this as a 'chasm' or some such). Tied into this problem is the whole section from Hurin in Nargothrond to Hurin in Doriath (the unwritten sections of 'Wanderings'). Christopher's solution was to more or less abandon 'Wanderings' and to rewrite the Q30 version. My inclination here is rather to keep 'Wanderings' and to adjust the Q30 and QS77 to fit, though of course that's much easier said than done.

2. The problem of the invasion of Doriath. As JRRT noted, but, infuriatingly, did not solve, a hostile army cannot invade Doriath as long as the Girdle of Melian is in place. The only indication from JRRT is that it must be contrived that Thingol at some point leaves Doriath and is slain. Christopher decided that this was an unworkable projected revision, and made up his own story. But the story that he invented elegantly and completely solves the problem. There is a good case for using his story (and it is allowed by our principles, if we deem all extant versions by JRRT unworkable).

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Findegil]

Ai Aiwendil, you are a good cook as it turned out. smilies/wink.gif

You had found exactly the two problems that this group most must solve for the project. In the first cases it seem to me that your choice is between a hard brake from full narrative to short summary or the writing of new material (wish is near the boundary of fan-fic) or the abandonment of parts of the full narrative (writing a summary?).

In the second it is more the question to take CRRT "fan-fic" wish is indicated as not agreeing to JRRT last ideas or writing your own "fan-fic" out of the small hints that JRRT left.

It will be very interesting to see were you end up with it.

In the moment my choice would be the hard brake in the first case and Thingol killed outside Doriath in the second. But lets see what the discussion will bring up.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

I have been perusing the Ruin of Doriath, now that it seems that Fall of Gondolin is in need of opinions to move foward.
Originally posted by Aiwendil
The problem of the invasion of Doriath. As JRRT noted, but, infuriatingly, did not solve, a hostile army cannot invade Doriath as long as the Girdle of Melian is in place. The only indication from JRRT is that it must be contrived that Thingol at some point leaves Doriath and is slain. Christopher decided that this was an unworkable projected revision, and made up his own story. But the story that he invented elegantly and completely solves the problem. There is a good case for using his story (and it is allowed by our principles, if we deem all extant versions by JRRT unworkable).
I was reading the Wanderings, Tale and the Quenta yesterday, and it doesn't seem to me impossible a reconcilation between the accounts.
What I have in mind is the following:
Use as Aiwnedil suggested, the Wanderings of Húrin as far as it can takes us, and then joined it with the Tale of the Nauglafing.
1. The Tale of the Nauglafing is of course very outdated. I would propose to revise it using the Quenta in Home 4.

2. How to deal with Thingol slaying? I would propose that we follow the Quenta to make that Thingol was slained when he was outside of Doriath, when the Dwarvish Army was coming. It solves the problem of the Girdle and leaves Menegroth opens for an assault.

3. Húrin. I think that this is the biggest problem in the whole Ruin of Doriath. Unfortunately we do not have, like in the Fall of Gondolin, a part where Húrin actually reaches Doriath, like Tuor did in Unfinished Tales.
Using the Wanderings of Húrin, if we follow the story, it ends with Húrin leaving Brethil with no company and it is supposed that he will be going to Nargothrond to seek the treasure and then go to Menegroth. As Aiwendil posted, that is the gap that is very troublesome to us. Using the Wanderings, we can construct a narrative from Húrin leaving Angband to Húrin gaining some outlaws and heading towards Nargothrond. If we joined that with the last paragraphs of the Tale of Turambar, we have in some way a narrative with no gaps.
It doesn't look as impossible as I once thought.

[ August 23, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[Aiwendil]

I have given this a lot of thought as well, and I think that in general my conclusions are the same as Maedhros's.

I agree that the best course with regard to the death of Thingol is to have him go to war beyond the borders and be slain. This is, at any rate, the latest wish of Tolkien on the matter (though obviously it was only a very rough idea). Christopher's version is, as I've said before, an elegant and well-contrived solution to the difficulty; but I'd rather stay as close as possible to JRRT's plot.

Actually, we do have the scene in Lost Tales where Hurin enters Doriath. It is, if I recall correctly, placed at the end of the Tale of Turin rather than in the Tale of the Nauglafring. Of course, it is very different from the later versions - yet I think a lot of the writing might be salvaged and used to fill out our version.

What I think is the real difficult point here is the fate of Hurin's outlaws. I do not like Christopher's solution here - simply to drop the outlaws entirely and reduce the treasure brought by Hurin down to the Nauglamir. It seems clear from 'Wanderings' that the outlaws were to be retained. On the other hand, I completely agree with Christopher that in the Q30 version, where the outlaws die in quarrels on the road, the gesture is completely ruined by Hurin's having to have Thingol's people bear the treasure into Menegroth and then cast it at his feet.

A case could certainly be made for retaining the Q30 version, however inferior it is. But another solution would be this: retain the outlaws and have them go with Hurin to Doriath and cast the treasure at Thingol's feet, as in the old Tale. Hurin leaves in anger. But then, whereas in the Tale the outlaws fight with Thingol's people, we could have them simply forswear the treasure and leave Thingol's halls in peace.

The weakness with such a course, naturally, is the completely fabricated plot point of the outlaws leaving in peace. But it has the virtue of retaining the role of the outlaws (which, by all indications, was never questioned by Tolkien) and avoiding the extreme awkwardness of the Q30 version.

I would also certainly eliminate two points that seem to have been fabricated for the 77. First, return to the earlier story where the Nauglamir was wrought by the Dwarves out of the treasure of Nargothrond, rather than being an ancient artifact that lay in the hoard. Second, remove the moment where Melian lifts the spell of Morgoth from Hurin, since (unless I'm forgetting something) there is no indication that this was to occur.

[Findegil]

I agree with the propouse to take 'Húrins wanderings' and try to build the tow missing chapters out of HoME II, HoME IV and Sil '77 material.
I will try to add something to Aiwendils plot: When I remeber rightly, it was JRR Tolkien him self how noted that it would ruine the gesture, when Húrin must go to Doriath and ask for help in the tarnspprot of the treasure. So I think that we must retain the outlaws at least into Doriath.
But if the outlaws are to go in peace from Menegroth, than I think they would best leave it in company with Húrin. Since of Húrins further aktions is nothing said, other than his death in the western see, you could left thier fate dubious as well. (I could writ a nice fan-fic about Húrins death, after finding Tours spear in Vinyamar and thier with recongince that he had brought ruin to Gondolin as well - but that doesn't belong here.) On the other hand we could also use Mîms crouse and the quarells on the road as solution for thier fate and only move it to the time after they left Menegroth. But that is agian a very riscy course to go.

Posted by Aiwendil:
I would also certainly eliminate two points that seem to have been fabricated for the 77. First, return to the earlier story where the Nauglamir was wrought by the Dwarves out of the treasure of Nargothrond, rather than being an ancient artifact that lay in the hoard. Second, remove the moment where Melian lifts the spell of Morgoth from Húrin, since (unless I'm forgetting something) there is no indication that this was to occur.
I agree with Aiwendil in these points. As fare as I know we have no indications in any text written by JRR Tolkien that he would have changed his plot in respect to these points, so I don't think they should be used, even if they could be used in accordance with rules of the project.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
Actually, we do have the scene in Lost Tales where Hurin enters Doriath. It is, if I recall correctly, placed at the end of the Tale of Turin rather than in the Tale of the Nauglafring. Of course, it is very different from the later versions - yet I think a lot of the writing might be salvaged and used to fill out our version.
You are right of course, and that is what I meant by stating that we could use the last few chapters of The Tale of Turambar.
Originally posted by Aiwnedil
What I think is the real difficult point here is the fate of Hurin's outlaws. I do not like Christopher's solution here - simply to drop the outlaws entirely and reduce the treasure brought by Hurin down to the Nauglamir. It seems clear from 'Wanderings' that the outlaws were to be retained. On the other hand, I completely agree with Christopher that in the Q30 version, where the outlaws die in quarrels on the road, the gesture is completely ruined by Hurin's having to have Thingol's people bear the treasure into Menegroth and then cast it at his feet.
I agree with that.
I would also certainly eliminate two points that seem to have been fabricated for the 77. First, return to the earlier story where the Nauglamir was wrought by the Dwarves out of the treasure of Nargothrond, rather than being an ancient artifact that lay in the hoard. Second, remove the moment where Melian lifts the spell of Morgoth from Hurin, since (unless I'm forgetting something) there is no indication that this was to occur.
This too.

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
But then, whereas in the Tale the outlaws fight with Thingol's people, we could have them simply forswear the treasure and leave Thingol's halls in peace.

The weakness with such a course, naturally, is the completely fabricated plot point of the outlaws leaving in peace. But it has the virtue of retaining the role of the outlaws (which, by all indications, was never questioned by Tolkien) and avoiding the extreme awkwardness of the Q30 version.
Now that I have worked a little with the version in the private forum, I think it best that we leave the slaying of the outlaws in Menegroth. I think that it leaves the curse of the gold of Glaurung a factor in that part of the story, and the advantage of it is that it is already included in the Tale of the Nauflagring so no fabrication necessary. I personally do not see any overriding reason as to make the outlaws leave Doriath willingly do you?

[Maédhros]

I have now posted my Revised version of the Ruin of Doriath in the private forum. These were made in mind in trying to capture as most of the intended Tolkien ideas as possible. I have used basically the Tale of the Nauglafring and the Published Silmarillion in my versions.

I would have liked to have used more the QS30 but I think that because of it's size, it is not too useful, only as guidelines to the story.

I made, as in the Quenta, that the messenger who comes to Beren and Lúthien to be Melian and not an unnamed one as in the QS77 or Huan in the Tale.

Beren, as it is stated in the Letters 247:
But I can foresee one action that they took, not without a bearing on The L.R. It was in Ossiriand, a forest country, secret and mysterious before the west feet of the Ered Luin, that Beren and Lúthien dwelt for a while after Beren's return from the Dead (I p. 206). Beren did not show himself among mortals again, except once. He intercepted a dwarf-army that had descended from the mountains, sacked the realm of Doriath and slain King Thingol, Lúthien's father, carrying off a great booty, including Thingol's necklace upon which hung the Silmaril. There was a battle about a ford across one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir, and the Silmaril was recovered, and so came down to Dior Beren's son, and to Elwing Dior's daughter and Earendel her husband (father of Elros and Elrond). It seems clear that Beren, who had no army, received the aid of the Ents – and that would not make for love between Ents and Dwarves.

That is the reason as to why in my revision, I deleted the references to the green Elves that helped Beren in the QS77.

I used some parts of the Tale, such as the detail of the fight between Beren and Naglandur because I felt that it would add more to the story.

I retained the part that while Lúthien wearing the Silmaril, the sons of Fëanor would not assail them, because of the reference of The Tale of Years D1
Curufin and Celegorm, hearing of the sack of Menegroth, ambushed the Dwarves at the Fords of Ascar as they sought to carry off the Dragon-gold to the mountains. The Dwarves were defeated with great loss, but they cast the gold into the river, which was therefore after named Rathlóriel. Great was the anger of the sons of Fëanor to discover that the Silmaril was not with the Dwarves; but they dared not to assail Lúthien. Dior goes to Doriath and endeavours to recover the realm of Thingol.
It is interesting that this note says that both Curufin and Celegorm attacked the dwarves but this was rejected in the letter that i quoted above.

Lastly, I'm sure that my versions are full of errors, but it is my hope that they can be used as a guide to this section.

[Findegil]

Maedhros, I am sure that you had done a lot of hard and nice work for that version in the private forum. But I think that it wouldn't be good to start the work on the basis of a text hidden from public.
If you do that you will restrict the attendance of any discussion to the members of the project. That this forum is open for public shows that the project has as jet ever tried to do the work in public and take in as many thoughts of no-members (like me) as possible. As far as I have understood the project policy, only the ultimate refinements of the text had been done in the private forum. As it seemed to me, this was done only because of copyright restrictions against the posting of big parts of the actual text of the source books in an open forum.

Especially in such an early stage of the development it would be nice to have the parts of the text discussed in front anybody. I could take the source -texts and try to do the same work you had done again and guess from your posts how do you composed the text. But how many no-members would do that? And it would be inventing the wheel for the 1001 time.

I know that what I ask for is again a lot of work, since you have to take one of the source-texts and make it the basis text from which you than develop be deletions and addition (with source information). But it will be rewarded by a greater number of minds thinking about it and contribute to the development of the final version. In the moment that seems highly recommended since the number of active members of the project seems to be very small indeed.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:
When I remeber rightly, it was JRR Tolkien him self how noted that it would ruine the gesture, when Húrin must go to Doriath and ask for help in the tarnspprot of the treasure. So I think that we must retain the outlaws at least into Doriath.


Was it JRRT? I was under the impression it was Christopher.

But if the outlaws are to go in peace from Menegroth, than I think they would best leave it in company with Húrin. Since of Húrins further aktions is nothing said, other than his death in the western see, you could left thier fate dubious as well.

But it seems likely that had they gone with him, they would have prevented him from slaying himself. In all versions of the story, Hurin goes forth alone, and slays himself alone. To me this seems to be a critical point.

On the other hand we could also use Mîms crouse and the quarells on the road as solution for thier fate and only move it to the time after they left Menegroth. But that is agian a very riscy course to go.

It is a nice solution; but you are right - it's risky.

Now that I have worked a little with the version in the private forum, I think it best that we leave the slaying of the outlaws in Menegroth. I think that it leaves the curse of the gold of Glaurung a factor in that part of the story, and the advantage of it is that it is already included in the Tale of the Nauflagring so no fabrication necessary. I personally do not see any overriding reason as to make the outlaws leave Doriath willingly do you?

The trouble is that the fight in Thingol's halls is one of those features of the Lost Tales that never appears again. I certainly see your point - if there's no pressing reason to reject it, it would be preferrable to use it and not invent anything. But it seems to be one of the 'primitive' aspects of the Lost Tales - Elves becoming greedy and savage at the slightest provocation, Thingol's hall being overrun with brawling and slaughter time after time. Moreover, it seems quite plausible that the main objective of the story in Q30 was to eliminate this fight in Menegroth.

I realize, of course, that having the outlaws leave willingly is no closer to being valid than is the fight.

Perhaps the best way to go would be (if we could manage it) to be ambiguous about the fate of the outlaws - "of the fate of Hurin's band no tale tells" or something of the sort.

That is the reason as to why in my revision, I deleted the references to the green Elves that helped Beren in the QS77.

An argument could certainly be made that the aid of the Green-elves was not rejected. Beren had no 'army' but that is not to say that he had no aid whatsoever outside the Ents. But I suppose that in eliminating mention of the Green-elves we are not explicitly saying that they were not there.

Findegil wrote:

Maedhros, I am sure that you had done a lot of hard and nice work for that version in the private forum. But I think that it wouldn't be good to start the work on the basis of a text hidden from public.


I think this is certianly correct. The actual editing should be done, as with the Fall of Gondolin, in the public forum.

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Findegil
Maedhros, I am sure that you had done a lot of hard and nice work for that version in the private forum. But I think that it wouldn't be good to start the work on the basis of a text hidden from public.
If you do that you will restrict the attendance of any discussion to the members of the project. That this forum is open for public shows that the project has as jet ever tried to do the work in public and take in as many thoughts of no-members (like me) as possible. As far as I have understood the project policy, only the ultimate refinements of the text had been done in the private forum. As it seemed to me, this was done only because of copyright restrictions against the posting of big parts of the actual text of the source books in an open forum.
I posted those versions in the private forum because of the copyright restrictions. I have no problem in posting them in the Public forum, so that all can see them. If Aiwendil and lindil are ok with that perhaps one of them can move them to the public forum. I agree that with more opinions on the subject the better it would be.

[Finwe]

For the Green-elf situation, couldn't we just mention a small band of them with Beren? That way, both their aid is mentioned, and the fact that they were a sort of organized band, under Beren's leadership.

[Maédhros]

Reasons for the Fight of the Outlaws in Menegroth

From the Quenta
And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road;

From the Tale of the Nauglafring
Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold; but the wild folk did as they were bid, and yet more, for some went into the hoard twice and thrice, and angry cries were raised in that hall. Then would the woodland Elves hinder them of their thieving, and a great dissension arose, so that though the king would stay them none heeded him. Then did those outlaws being fierce and fearless folk draw swords and deal blows about them, so that soon there was a great fight even upon the steps of the high-seat of the king. Doughty were those outlaws and great wielders of sword and axe from their warfare with Orcs, so that many were slain ere the king, seeing that peace and pardon might no longer be, summoned a host of his warriors, and those outlaws being wildered with the stronger magics of the king and confused in the dark ways of the halls of Thingol were all slain fighting bitterly; but the king's hall ran with gore, and the gold that lay before his throne,' scattered and spurned by trampling feet, was drenched with blood. Thus did the curse of Mîm the Dwarf begin its course; and yet another sorrow sown by the Noldor of old in Valinor was come to fruit.

As we can see, in both cases, the outlaws die by cause of the curse of the Gold. If we keep their faith uncertain, we move IMO, away from the core of the Story. And it is very probable that the outlaws would fight for the treasure that they had just brought from Nargothrond. Of course one could argue too that outlaws would avoid a fight when they are outnumbered.

Of course we have CT comments from the Tale of Years
There were very evident problems with the old story. Had he ever turned to it again, my father would undoubtedly have found some solution other than that in the Quenta to the question, How was the treasure of Nargothrond brought to Doriath? There, the curse that Mîm laid upon the gold at his death 'came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.' As I said in IV.188, 'it ruins the gesture, if Húrin must get the king himself to send for the gold with which he is then to be humiliated'. It seems to me most likely (but this is mere speculation) that my father would have reintroduced the outlaws from the old Tales (11.113-15,222-3) as the bearers of the treasure (though not the fierce battle between them and the Elves of the Thousand Caves): in the scrappy writings at the end of The Wanderings of Húrin Asgon and his companions reappear after the disaster in Brethil and go with Húrin to Nargothrond (pp. 306-7).
Now CT believes that as we have done, we have reintroduced the outlaws in the tale, but if they were not killed either in Nargothrond or while bearing the treausure, would they have left the halls of Thingol without a fight. Would they then, have been free of the curse of Mîm.

I have searched in the Tale of Years for some indication about the outlaws but I have not found anyone in there.

[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[Findegil]

Aiwendil wrote: Was it JRRT? I was under the impression it was Christopher.
I have to look that up. What I wrote was the impression left in my memory and could be wrong. At least it could be to specific - the indication that JRR Tolkien was not satisfaid by the version of Q30 could have been a large X on the text or a "that won't do". But even that is not sure. I will search for it.

Posted by Aiwendil: But it seems likely that had they gone with him, they would have prevented him from slaying himself. In all versions of the story, Hurin goes forth alone, and slays himself alone. To me this seems to be a critical point.
That is clearly a weak spot. But I think it is more probable that Húrin left them a second time, as he had done to find Gondolin, other than the outlaws by thier own forswear the treasure.
Let's try that out:
Then were {Urin's}[Húrin's] words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure, and he said: "What meanest thou, child of Men, and wherefore upbraidest thou me?" Long did I foster thy son and forgave him the evil of his deeds, and afterward thy wife I succoured, giving way against my counsel to her wild desires. {Melko}[Morgoth] it is that hates thee and not I. Yet what is it to me -- and wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalie? Lo! in {Palisor}[Cúivenen /?spellling/] my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke. Get thee gone, 0 {Urin}[Húrin], for {Melko}[Morgoth] hath bewitched thee, and take thy riches with thee" -- but he forebore to slay or to bind {Urin}[Húrin] in spells, remembering his ancient valiance in the Eldar's cause.
Then Urin departed[ with his man], but would not touch the gold, {and stricken
in years he reached Hisilome and died among Men, but}and some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men./Q30/[ But] his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men. I toke the main body of the text out of the Tale of The Nauglafring. Unless changes of names and the addition of Húrins fate, I only inserted "with his man" in the last paragraph.
I think that would work, to let the fate of Asgon and his man dubious, but I see Meadhros point: As we can see, in both cases, the outlaws die by cause of the curse of the Gold. If we keep their faith uncertain, we move IMO, away from the core of the Story.
So I will try out my own risky plot:
In the Quote abvoe we will leave out "with his man". (In my view on this spot should be a chapter brake , and for that I added Thingol in the next sentence, but that's not now the point.) {'Behold then,' said Ailios, 'in} great grief gazed {the }king [Thingol] upon {Urin}[Húrin] as he left the hall, and he was weary for the evil of {Melko}[Morgoth] that thus deceived all hearts; yet tells the tale that so potent were the spells that {Mim the fatherless}[Mîm] had woven about that hoard that, even as it lay upon the floor of the king's halls shining strangely in the light of the torches that burnt there, already were all who looked upon it touched by its subtle evil.
Now therefore did those of {Urin's}[Húrin's] band murmur, and one said to the king: "Lo, lord, our captain {Urin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain."
Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol], for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: "Nay then, know ye not that this gold belongs to the kindred of the Elves in common, for the {Rodothlim}[people of Finarfin/I couldn't find any better phrase to specifie the Elves of Nargothrond/] who won it from the earth long time ago are no more, and no one has especial claim' to so much as a handful save only {Urin}[Húrin] by reason of his son Turin, who slew the Worm, the robber of the Elves; yet Turin is dead and {Urin}[Húrin] will have none of it; and Turin was my man."
At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath, until the king said: "Get ye now gone, and seek not 0 foolish ones to quarrel with the Elves of the forest, lest death or the dread enchantments of {Valinor}[the Eldar] find you in the woods. Neither revile ye the name of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] their king, for I will reward you richly enough for your travail and the bringing of the gold. Let each one now approach and take what he may grasp with either hand, and then depart in peace."
Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold; but the wild folk did as they were bid, and yet more, for some went into the hoard twice and thrice, and angry cries were raised in that hall. Then would the woodland Elves hinder them of their thieving, and a great dissension arose, so that {though }the king {would}[had to] stay them{ none heeded him. ...}/Here the risky part beginns and the rest of the fight in the hall has to go./[. So the outlaws left Menegroth, with a part of the treasure but soon/editorial addition/][i] the curse [of Mîm] came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Hurin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road/Q30/[.]

The addition I had to make with out source is beyond what you normaly call "minimal change", so it was much less heavy than I had feared for. As we already thought, it is a risky course. I could have cut more of the scene and aviode the change of Thingol stopping the dissension. But I like the working of crouse upon Elves in the hall.
In addition I like to mention, that I can't think that a man like Asgon took part in the events in Thingols hall. It is clearly not Asgon how speaks to the king of Húrin as a "old and mad" man. That words sound more like Ragnir. The young man how is the opponent of Asgon in the conversations when the band is searching Húrin. It would be very nice to find a way, to make Asgons fate dubious, but in the moment I can't see any solution within the rules of the project. (In my privat view he is the comunicater of parts of the Narn.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Finwe wrote:

For the Green-elf situation, couldn't we just mention a small band of them with Beren? That way, both their aid is mentioned, and the fact that they were a sort of organized band, under Beren's leadership.

This is one possibility - that is, to assume that there were Green-elves but that they were not numerous enough to be an "army". Personally, I would go this way; I don't think that the reference in Letters is sufficient evidence that the Green-elves were dropped.

As we can see, in both cases, the outlaws die by cause of the curse of the Gold.

Yes. This is a good point.

Maedhros wrote:

If we keep their faith uncertain, we move IMO, away from the core of the Story.

But if their fate is made sufficiently ambiguous, who is to say whether they escaped the curse or not?

We are engaged in a sort of surgery upon the narrative. No matter what we do, we cannot preserve every nuance, every subtlety of the Lost Tales. It is, of course, preferrable to preserve what we can; but there must be some casualties, and I fear that the specifics of the working of the curse upon the outlaws may be one of them.

Now CT believes that as we have done, we have reintroduced the outlaws in the tale, but if they were not killed either in Nargothrond or while bearing the treausure, would they have left the halls of Thingol without a fight. Would they then, have been free of the curse of Mîm.

Possibly. I see no reason to think that the curse of Mim is absolutely inevitable. But if we do not specify the fate of the outlaws, then we retain the possibility that the curse did somehow find them.

I think Christopher is right that, had "Wanderings" gotten as far as Doriath, the fight in the caves would not have reappeared.

Findegil wrote:

I have to look that up. What I wrote was the impression left in my memory and could be wrong. At least it could be to specific - the indication that JRR Tolkien was not satisfaid by the version of Q30 could have been a large X on the text or a "that won't do". But even that is not sure. I will search for it.

Okay. In any case, I think that whoever said it is right; it does ruin the gesture and almost certainly it would have been altered in a more ample account.

That is clearly a weak spot. But I think it is more probable that Húrin left them a second time, as he had done to find Gondolin, other than the outlaws by thier own forswear the treasure.

So you think that the outlaws were more likely to give up the treasure in order to follow Hurin than to give it up afterward? I can see the logic there, though I don't think I fully agree.

The addition I had to make with out source is beyond what you normaly call "minimal change", so it was much less heavy than I had feared for. As we already thought, it is a risky course. I could have cut more of the scene and aviode the change of Thingol stopping the dissension. But I like the working of crouse upon Elves in the hall.


As I said before, it's a nice solution. But if they are to die in quarrels after leaving Menegroth, then what can be the cause of those quarrels? They could no longer be fighting over the gold. And in that sense, it is not really Mim's curse that kills them; elsewhere the curse always manifests itself as a desire for the gold which leads to ruin.

Also, as we already acknowledged, the change is risky - perhaps a bit too risky. Remember, how severe an editorial change is doesn't always correspond simply to how many words were altered. In terms of plot, this is a major change with little textual support.

In addition I like to mention, that I can't think that a man like Asgon took part in the events in Thingols hall. It is clearly not Asgon how speaks to the king of Húrin as a "old and mad" man. That words sound more like Ragnir. The young man how is the opponent of Asgon in the conversations when the band is searching Húrin.

This is one of the chief reasons that I think the old fight would have been changed. It is almost impossible to picture Asgon acting this way, curse or no curse. He is portrayed as far too reasonable a figure. It is also very difficult to picture the later Elves of Doriath falling so easily into savagery. The later conception of the Sindar is very different from that presented here. In the old tale, Doriath was a far more primitive, naturalistic place.

So I really think that the fight in Menegroth is out of place in the more mature Silmarillion.

It would be very nice to find a way, to make Asgons fate dubious, but in the moment I can't see any solution within the rules of the project. (In my privat view he is the comunicater of parts of the Narn.)

I have also speculated that some of those outlaws might have made their way to the havens and been the source for parts of the Narn.

It would, I think, be far preferrable to leave the fate of the outlaws uncertain. There are actually several ways to do this; the problem that I see with these ways is that none is quite uncertain enough to cover the wide range of reasonable fates. I will give this matter some thought.

[lindil]

Aiwendil posted
What I think is the real difficult point here is the fate of Hurin's outlaws. I do not like Christopher's solution here - simply to drop the outlaws entirely and reduce the treasure brought by Hurin down to the Nauglamir. It seems clear from 'Wanderings' that the outlaws were to be retained.


I am of the opinion, that as Aiwendil suggests we re-introduce the outlaws with minimal words, and leave as vauge as possible the contents other than the Nauglimir that they take to Doriath.

Asgon in particular needs to be shownnamed in his continued appearances in the Narn, the Wanderings and finall the Ruin of Doriath.

There fate should I think remain unknown.

I am in favor of keeping Thingols death as per the 77. Not pure tolkien, but I do not wish to take too lightly CJRT's general conservatism and insight, and long pondering on the matter.

I think had he suggested it to his father [he seems to have been virtually unconnected with his fathers M-E writings in his last years though] JRRT most likely would have taken it as a basis to work from. It is not only 'an elegant solution' as Aiwendil has said, it has the ring of the Legendarium to it.

All that is my opinion of course, but it is admissable as an option according to our Principles.



[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
This is one possibility - that is, to assume that there were Green-elves but that they were not numerous enough to be an "army". Personally, I would go this way; I don't think that the reference in Letters is sufficient evidence that the Green-elves were dropped.
I think I'm ok with Finwë´s idea in here.

From the Notes in the End of the Tale of Years
There were very evident problems with the old story. Had he ever turned to it again, my father would undoubtedly have found some solution other than that in the Quenta to the question, How was the treasure of Nargothrond brought to Doriath? There, the curse that Mîm laid upon the gold at his death 'came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.' As I said in IV.188, 'it ruins the gesture, if Húrin must get the king himself to send for the gold with which he is then to be humiliated'. It seems to me most likely (but this is mere speculation) that my father would have reintroduced the outlaws from the old Tales (11.113-15,222-3) as the bearers of the treasure (though not the fierce battle between them and the Elves of the Thousand Caves): in the scrappy writings at the end of The Wanderings of Húrin Asgon and his companions reappear after the disaster in Brethil and go with Húrin to Nargothrond (pp. 306-7).

I think that we can all safely agree that the reintroduction of the outlaws acompanying Húrin to Nargothrond is necessary in our version.

Regarding the battle of the Outlaws in Menegroth, CT seems that it would have been abandoned. I think that CT instincts are better than mine in this so I would defer to him. But notice the interesting fact that CT states that the fight in Menegroth, not outside it.
We could:
1. Leave their faith ambiguous as Aiwendil suggests.
2. We could use Findegil option of using the Quenta version to deal with the fate of the outlaws.

Personally, I like Findegil’s option better because, we know from both the Tale and the Quenta that the outlaws die and that they were affected by the curse of Mîm. That being said, that does not mean however that in our versión we would state explicitly that all of the outlaws were killed, leaving open the idea that one of them could be Dírhaval or one who instructed some of the tales to him.

How he would have treated Thingol's behaviour towards the Dwarves is impossible to say. That story was only once told fully, in the Tale of the Nauglafring, in which the conduct of Tinwelint (precursor of Thingol) was wholly at variance with the later conception of the king (see II.245-6). In the Sketch no more is said of the matter than that the Dwarves were 'driven away without payment', while in the Quenta 'Thingol... scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls'. There seems to be no clue or hint in later writing (in The Tale of Years the same bare phrase is used in all the versions: Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves'), unless one is seen in the words quoted from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn on p. 353: Celeborn in his view of the destruction of Doriath ignored Morgoth's part in it 'and Thingol's own faults'.
I think personally that this is the most troublesome part in the whole affair. What would be the interaction between Thingol and the dwarves? The idea that I was thinking of is in a was following the Tale in that the dwarves of Nogrod felt that it could be said that Mîm’s treasure should belong to the dwarven race, because the folk of Mîm were the original dwellers of Nargothrond. But that is just an idea that I’m playing with.

In The Tale of Years my father seems not to have considered the problem of the passage of the Dwarvish host into Doriath despite the Girdle of Melian, but in writing the word 'cannot' against the D version (p. 352) he showed that he regarded the story he had outlined as impossible, for that reason. In another place he sketched a possible solution (ibid.): 'Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.'
That is exactly what I’m doing. By following the Tale, we could use that while Thingol went for the Hunt, they somehow drifted outside the protection of the girdle and there were ambushed by the dwarves.

In the story that appears in The Silmarillion the outlaws who went with Húrin to Nargothrond were removed, as also was the curse of Mîm; and the only treasure that Húrin took from Nargothrond was the Nauglamîr - which was here supposed to have been made by Dwarves for Finrod Felagund, and to have been the most prized by him of all the hoard of Nargothrond. Húrin was represented as being at last freed from the delusions inspired by Morgoth in his encounter with Melian in Menegroth. The Dwarves who set the Silmaril in the Nauglamîr were already in Menegroth engaged on other works, and it was they who slew Thingol; at that time Melian's power was with-drawn from Neldoreth and Region, and she vanished out of Middle-earth, leaving Doriath unprotected. The ambush and destruction of the Dwarves at Sarn Athrad was given again to Beren and the Green Elves (following my father's letter of 1963 quoted on p. 353, where however he said that 'Beren had no army'), and from the same source the Ents, 'Shepherds of the Trees', were introduced.
This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long experimentation among alternative conceptions. In this work Guy Kay took a major part, and the chapter that I finally wrote owes much to my discussions with him. It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing in the course of the book: even in the case of the story of The Fall of Gondolin, to which my father had never returned, something could be contrived without introducing radical changes in the narrative. It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.
I think that while CT Ruin of Doriath has a lot of merit and it is a beautiful work, we should try and be more faithful to the ideas of JRRT.

[Aiwendil]

Lindil wrote:

Asgon in particular needs to be shownnamed in his continued appearances in the Narn, the Wanderings and finall the Ruin of Doriath.

Agreed.

There fate should I think remain unknown.

I think this is the safest option by far.

I am in favor of keeping Thingols death as per the 77. Not pure tolkien, but I do not wish to take too lightly CJRT's general conservatism and insight, and long pondering on the matter.

But the Ruin of Doriath devised by Christopher Tolkien is probably his least conservative bit of writing, and the one that he most came to regret after even longer pondering. As Maedhros points out, he states quite clearly in HoMe XI that he regrets the invention of the story.

I think personally that this is the most troublesome part in the whole affair. What would be the interaction between Thingol and the dwarves?

I would say that the words of Q30 should be taken as authoritative - "Thingol... scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls". If no better can be done, we can simply use the words of the Quenta.

That is exactly what I’m doing. By following the Tale, we could use that while Thingol went for the Hunt, they somehow drifted outside the protection of the girdle and there were ambushed by the dwarves.

I'm not sure that the hunt ought to be retained. The note indicates that Thingol was "lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders". Going on a hunt and accidentally straying beyond the Girdle does not quite fit this description.

Why not simply say that, hearing of the Dwarf army, he decides to go to war and he rides forth beyond the borders?

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
I would say that the words of Q30 should be taken as authoritative - "Thingol... scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls". If no better can be done, we can simply use the words of the Quenta.
I know that that is stated in the Quenta but, does a proud elf, like Thingol would go back on his word?
Would that fit with a later Silmarillion?
Why not simply say that, hearing of the Dwarf army, he decides to go to war and he rides forth beyond the borders?
What if they were in the hunt and they heard of the dwarf army and decided to go to war?

[Aiwendil]

I know that that is stated in the Quenta but, does a proud elf, like Thingol would go back on his word?
Would that fit with a later Silmarillion?

Well, we don't know the details of the argument; it's possible that Thingol felt justified in scanting the promised reward. Thingol is, and remains in the later writings, a proud and sometimes short-sighted character. I could well imagine him finding some justification for refusing payment to the Dwarves - perhaps he suspects their treachery and means to punish their insolence, or something like that. Of course we need not give any such justification; what matters is that justification of this kind is conceivable. Moreover, the Q30 (while not exactly a mature work) is significantly more mature than the Lost Tales, and therein we find the last account of the quarrel outside of vague references to it. I would rather try to follow it than the Lost Tales.

What if they were in the hunt and they heard of the dwarf army and decided to go to war?

I suppose that could work - it has the virtue, anyway, of explaining why the king would ride forth so rashly. But I'm still hesitant. The hunt, along with the rest of the story in the Tale of the Nauglafring, was rejected and replaced with various new stories. Now we find those new stories unsatisfactory - but does that mean that elements like the hunt can be reinstated?

[lindil]

Aiwendil posted But the Ruin of Doriath devised by Christopher Tolkien is probably his least conservative bit of writing, and the one that he most came to regret after even longer pondering. As Maedhros points out, he states quite clearly in HoMe XI that he regrets the invention of the story.

Yes, I brought up the 'conservative' bit to underscore his general reluctance to invent.

He has also stated his doubts about trying to create a single official 'Silmarillion' at all.

He felt he had to [on both counts], and did, and I do not think any of the proposals so far mentioned [the alterations of the death of Thingol that is, not additions from Wanderings of Hurin and Bolt and Q30].

The fact that he changed his mind does not alter what I consider 3 very important facts;

CJRT did write a revised, integrative and coherent Ruin of Doriath which around the world in all but the most esoteric Tolkien discussion circles [ such as this one] is THE version. It has gained through collective experience a degree [by no means absolute, I admit] of co-creative reality that I am loath to tamper with unless the end result is equally or better satisfactory. Our 'Principles' allow us to consider it for usage. He regrets doing it, yes, but has not left any authoritative or workable replacement suggestions. Nor did JRRT obviously - thus our dilemna


So far in every version suggested [I think] there are gaps were we would need to fan-fictionalize to maitain a coherent tale.

I propose we think in terms of additions to the 77 Silm Ruin of Doriath- which may well need to result in a few minor subtractions.

Such as[LIST] the additions of The wanderings of Hurin Asgon and co. going to Nargothrond and getting the Nauglamir and some treasure to cast at Thingols feet,
like Aiwendil I see a battle with the outlaws as impossibly outdated.
I would love to see Melian lift the curse of Mim's treasure from the outlaws, but for the moment I am reluctant to countenance it, till I can read a version that does not have it, and see if I feel it's lack as a real thing, not just an item on a wish-list. I think the idea of Asgon becoming the cource of the material [subbing his name in the Dirhavel/Aelfwine material?] is possible, but has Fan-Fiction liabilities. However JRRT seemed to be clearly heading in that direction as Asgon is the thread that ties Turin's ramapage in Dor-Lomin to Hurin, and he seemed to intent on having the outlaws [of whom Asgon was pre-eminent] go with Hurin to Doriath.

CJRT did a masterful job of turning a sinlge reference to Ents at the destruction of the host of Dwarves into marrative, so, again I say we keep it.
--------------

Ultimately I see this DoD issue [especially Thingol's death] as a question of 2 competing views;
1- do we want to imrove on the 77 and have the best possible [and longest/largest] literary 'Silmarillion'.

Or

2- the most 'pure' 'Silm' using JRRT's older ideas and material over CJRT's even when it is in total chaos.

The Principles and stated member goals seem to allow for both, so we have to choose.

I will [though it is rare for me in general] go for 1 over 2.

[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil: Well, we don't know the details of the argument; it's possible that Thingol felt justified in scanting the promised reward. Thingol is, and remains in the later writings, a proud and sometimes short-sighted character. I could well imagine him finding some justification for refusing payment to the Dwarves - perhaps he suspects their treachery and means to punish their insolence, or something like that. Actually we do know some details of the argument out of piece of canon. The Hobbit; chapter 8: Flies and Spiders: It [Thranduils hall] was also a dungeon of his prisoners. So to the cave they dragged Thorin - not too gently, for they did not love dwarves, and thought he was an enemy. In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay.This is, in my view, a killer for the Sil '77 version. If the only vault the Elves accused the dwarves for was to steal the treasure, how could the dwarves murder Thingol in his own cave? And if the Dwarves only accused the Elf-king of refusal of payment, how can we than believe that the dwarven-smith that murdered Thingol in his hall survieved that dead?
All this fits much better to the story of the Q30, were the dwarves ploted to gain the treasure and seemed to make a sharp discussion with Thingol about it and than were driven away without payment.
We are given also part the argumentation of the dwarves /Q33/: But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and disire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril. In that account of the story it seemed that Thingol scanted the reward without any good reason, but that must not be the case in our version since it does not longer fit to the charachter as developed in the other texts.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by lindil
I propose we think in terms of additions to the 77 Silm Ruin of Doriath- which may well need to result in a few minor subtractions.
I need to know if this is the official view of the majority of the members. I'm in total opposition to this. There are parts of the QS77 that I would not mind using but Thingol's death is where I draw the line. I need to know the line in which the project will lead to in order for me to continue.

[Aiwendil]

Lindil wrote:

I propose we think in terms of additions to the 77 Silm Ruin of Doriath- which may well need to result in a few minor subtractions.

And Maedhros wrote:

I need to know if this is the official view of the majority of the members. I'm in total opposition to this.

It is certainly not my view; I am also rather in opposition to it.

Christopher Tolkien states not only that he regrets certain of the changes he made but also that a far less radical version is probably possible. This is the view that has the benefit of years of study and insight.

At one time I thought that we would need to use Christopher's version; but I had grossly overestimated the amount of editorial reworking that would be required to make something sensible out of Tolkien's writings alone.

Our principles allow us to use text created by Christopher Tolkien but they certainly never compel us to do so. The preference, of course, is to use JRRT's text - and plot - wherever possible.

The situation with the death of Thingol can be taken care of simply by following the note suggesting that he went to war beyond the border and leaving the details ambiguous.

For the quarrel of Thingol and the Dwarves, we have at the very least the Q30 account.

The one real problem that we are left with, in my view, is the fate of the outlaws. But we would be left with this in any case, since no one (as far as I know) is suggesting that we follow the '77 in dropping the outlaws.

Lindil wrote:

I would love to see Melian lift the curse of Mim's treasure from the outlaws, but for the moment I am reluctant to countenance it, till I can read a version that does not have it, and see if I feel it's lack as a real thing, not just an item on a wish-list.


But isn't this the kind of fan fiction that a moment ago you said you wish to avoid?

I admit, it would make a good story. But I think introducing it would be stepping a little over the bounds of editorialization.

I think the idea of Asgon becoming the cource of the material [subbing his name in the Dirhavel/Aelfwine material?] is possible, but has Fan-Fiction liabilities.

Agreed. I certainly don't think we should actually say anything concerning Asgon or anyone else following their departure from Menegroth.

CJRT did a masterful job of turning a sinlge reference to Ents at the destruction of the host of Dwarves into marrative, so, again I say we keep it.

I agree.

I will [though it is rare for me in general] go for 1 over 2.

Alas - I quite definitely go for 2 over 1.

But perhaps we should put the Ruin of Doriath aside and focus on finishing the Fall of Gondolin. What we do not need is to be deeply embroiled in the two most troublesome chapters at the same time.

[Findegil]

Posted by Lindil: Ultimately I see this DoD issue [especially Thingol's death] as a question of 2 competing views;

1- do we want to imrove on the 77 and have the best possible [and longest/largest] literary 'Silmarillion'.

Or

2- the most 'pure' 'Silm' using JRRT's older ideas and material over CJRT's even when it is in total chaos.

The Principles and stated member goals seem to allow for both, so we have to choose. I would in any case vote for 2. 1 is in my viiew only an opption if we can't manage 2 at all (and that seems not to be the case in DoD, as far as I can see).

Posted by Aiwendil: But perhaps we should put the Ruin of Doriath aside and focus on finishing the Fall of Gondolin. What we do not need is to be deeply embroiled in the two most troublesome chapters at the same time. Alas - I have to agree to this. The working speed is slow enough if we only try to do one chapter at a time (even to slow for some as it seems).

But as it is, the beginning of the discussion were anything is possible, were the storyline is under discussion and were the mayor problems are solved is the most interesting part. The hard and tieresome discussion of little bits and details of textual changes are only done by people really devotet to the task.

Respectfully
Findegil

[lindil]

I will say only a fwe things which I think will cover the many points.

As for a need to consider resign maedrhos, see a new thread about to appear in the Private Forum.

Re: all other participants prefering position 2 over 1, this is hardly a suprise to me. and it is certainly a positiion for which a strong argument can be made.

As Aiwendil said, and I completely agree the priniciples allow us to go in either direction, but do not force our hand in either directionn.

As for Aiwendil's and Findegil's wise suggestion that the focus stay on FoG, it makes perfect sense.

I only need apologize for hopping on what was meant as a stop-gap measure by Maedhros [this being something for the rest of the group to chew on] while I finish giving my thoughtsd and input on the FoG.

So the ball is squarely back in my court.

As for the FoG, again see my soon to appear thread in the Private Forum.

Thanks for your patience.

[Maédhros]

As for a need to consider resign maedrhos, see a new thread about to appear in the Private Forum.
I feel that I have to apologize lindil. It was not meant in a mean way. I had spend some time working on a Revised Ruin of Doriath, and I feel very strongly that from JRRT material a more reliable version could be made. I would have not left the project, just the Doriath part.

And yes, I feel that we should finish the FOG first, but I had finish my first draft version of ROD that I had to post it. The good thing is that I got a lot of feedback with some nagging issues on it, and I think that the next version will be an improvement.

[lindil]

No need to apologise - It is an honest difference of opinion.

I, and others have said before [I think Michael Martinez may have first brought the concept to my attention] that there is no one right way. there are room for many alternative Silmarillions.

[Finwe]

Either way, we're going to have some disgruntled people if we go with choice 1 or choice 2, so we have to come up with a compromise that makes most of the members happy. I for one, kind of like the first choice, but I can understand where all those who like the second choice better are coming from. Why don't we try a little bit of both? We'll try to keep to the "pure" Silmarillion whenever we can, but in the cases where CJRT's version is better organized, we'll go with that.

[Findegil]

Posted by Finwe: Why don't we try a little bit of both? We'll try to keep to the "pure" Silmarillion whenever we can, but in the cases where CJRT's version is better organized, we'll go with that. Since we are discussing about the story-line I can't actually see how that can work. Could you give some more information about how you would start to work that out?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Heaven's Sake, my little inquiry really took off, while the family and I were traversing the hills of Ithilien and watching the Bard's unfortunate re-vision of what the word "Elf" has commonly come to be seen as.

I think there is much time to figure out this tricky issue. It is hardly the sort of thing for anyone's getting bent out of shape, as other more obvious project's continue. There may be no perfect answer, and discrete subtly may be needed. CRT's words and techniques may have to be accepted as a starting point as Lindil seems suggest, and then see what else can be properly made to work with minimal amending of a Tolkien's text. This may me a case where a "foot"note or other device is called for that alludes to the uncertainty and generalness of the account given and notes alternative tales. Even JRRT's finished work would present two or more variants for explaining a certain even or development. [The "---" tell that .... While it is said by the "----", rather ...]

Personally, I can report that I'm currently plodding into HoME X, and keeping up with Letters as I go, though I may also read HoME XII Pt. 1, before going much further with the "Later Silmarillion." So, I hope to be qualified for the private forum and real contribution, soon.

[Aiwendil]

Good to see you again, Man-of-the-Wold.

You are right that we have a lot of time to think about things and need not get all worked up about them right now. Still, I think we've made a lot of progress in the above posts, in terms of identifying critical issues and difficult points (if not in solving them).

You are right also that there is no perfect approach. I agree very strongly with Lindil's point that there is no one right way; there is room for many alternative Silmarillions.

But I still subscribe to the view that Christopher Tolkien's version of the Ruin of Doriath should not be used as the basis for our version. A footnote or something similar may very well be in order.

[ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Aiwendil, I bow to the light of your wisdom.

Perhaps it is best to merely keep CRT's effort in mind, but otherwise put it aside for a while.

We should start anew with whole cloth and make it into a quilt of real JRRT text from the Quenta Noldorina, Lost Tales and what not. I don't know of anything in the later tales that would make traitors among the Doriathrim so inconceivable. With the Silmirils came the Doom of the Mandos.

[I'am increasingly of the mind, though, that CRT's edited [I]Silmirillion[I/] is as good as anything that his father might have done in the 1950s---as intended---had he gotten it together, at that time. The obvious exception would have been the true completion of the later chapters, for which CRT prudently chose quick, if sometimes dirty resolutions. Those chapters were evidently never ever really worked on again, since the 1930s, under any scheme. And the later schemes of JRRT were too ambitious and was never going to approach publishable form. By 1977, the publishers had waited long enough.]

[ September 08, 2003: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[Finwe]

(Sorry for replying so late Findegil)


We have agreed that some "versions" of the Silmarillion have areas that are better organized than others. For example, one "version" could have a better Ainulindalë, whereas the other could have a better Ruin of Doriath. (I mean "better," as in more organized). We could kind of line up the different parts, by looking over them, figure out which ones make more sense, are better organized, etc. and use those. That way, we won't necessarily have to stick with one version all the way through, we will just pick out the better-organized parts from each one and compile those together.

(Have I made any sense? Forgive me, I'm typing this at about 11:25 PM, and I'm on a lot of caffeine).

[Findegil]

Since the Discussions about Fog had been idle the last days, I couldn't resist and had put my hand one Maedhros stuff in the privat forum.
But since I wished to have that discussion here in the open forum, I have to find a way to strip it from most of its textual value. That's hard to do and takes some time. So please be patient if this comes up only bit by bit.
I will start in this thread with the "General changes" and since in that there is not text I will first give Meadhros post from the privat forum as Quote: General changes

RD-01
Eärendel to Eärendil per QS77 and LR.

RD-02
Elfinesse to Elvenesse per Tolkien's general change of Elfin to Elven from earlier to later writings.

RD-03
Melko to Morgoth per QS77. After Bolt, Tolkien almost never uses Melkor in narration of events following Fëanor's invention of the name Morgoth, except in a back-reference to ancient times.

RD-04
Noldoli to Noldor per QS77. Noldoli, though possibly still a valid form, is not used at all in QS77 or late Tolkien writings.

RD-05
Gnome/Gnomes to Elf/Elves or Noldo/Noldor. "Gnomes" was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general reference to Elves would not fit, as in "the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not." Then use Noldor.

RD-06
Nauglafring to Nauglamír per QS77.

RD-07
Úrin to Húrin per LR.

RD-08
Glorund to Glaurung per Wanderings of Húrin.

RD-09
Tinwelint to Thingol per LR.

RD-10
Hisilómë to Hithlum per The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Sketch of Mythology
The six remaining sons of Fëanor (Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Damrod, Díriel, and Cranthir) ate encamped about the lake Mithrim in Hisilómë (Hithlum, or Dorlómin, the land of shadows in the North-west), when they hear of the march of Finweg and his men who have crossed the Grinding Ice.

RD-11
Rodothlim to elves of Nargothrond per QS77.

RD-12
Artanor to Doriath per QS30.

RD-13
Cûm an-Idrisaith (Mound of Avarice) to Cûm-nan-Arasaith per QS30. This need linguistic revision.

RD-14
Gwenniel to Melian per QS30.

RD-15
Angamandi to Angband per QS30.

RD-16
Nauglath (dwarves of Nogrod) to Firebeards per The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Note 24: My father refers here to four places of awakening of the Seven Ancestors of the Dwarves: those of 'the ancestors of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams', 'the ancestor of the Longbeards', 'the Ironfists and Stiffbeards', and 'the Blacklocks and Stonefoots'. (None of these names of the other six kindreds of the Dwarves has ever been given before. Since the ancestors of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams awoke in the Ered Lindon, these kindreds must be presumed to be the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost.)

RD-17
Indrafangs (dwarves of Belegost) to Broadbeams per Home 12 see RD-17.

RD-18
Umboth-muilin (Pools of Twilight) to Aelin-uial (Meres of Twilight) per QS77 and UT.

RD-19
Karkaras (Knife-fang) to Carcharoth ('the Red Maw') per QS77.

RD-20
i·Guilwarthon (the living-dead) to Dor Firn-i-Guinar ('Land of the Dead that Live') per QS77.

RD-21
Sarnathrod to Sarn Athrad per QS77.

RD-22
Lamp of Faëry to Silmaril (jewel of Fëanor) per Bolt II.

RD-23
Ausir to nothing ? Still in the works.

RD-24
Auredhir (son of Dior) to Eluréd and Elurín per QS77.

RD-25
Maidros to Maeðros per Home 10.

RD-26
Dinithel to Amras per QS77.

RD-27
Cranthor to Caranthir per QS77.

RD-28
Ermabwed to Erchamion per QS77.

RD-29
Mavwin to Morwen per QS77.

RD-30
Nienóri to Nienor per UT.

RD-31
Egnor to Barahir per QS77.

RD-32
Damrod to Amrod per QS77.

RD-33
Galweg to Orodreth per QS77.

RD-34
Teiglin to Taeglin per WH note 55:
Taeglin(d) better Taeglind
*taika (√taya mark, line, limit > tayak) mǽre, boundary, limit, boundary line.
linde 'singer / singing', name (or element in names) of many rivers of quick course that make a rippling sound.
mǽre is an Old English word of the same meaning. – It seems that the form chosen for the published Silmarillion should have been Taeglin rather than Teiglin (see p. 228, §28).

RD-35
Gwendelin to Melian per QS77.

RD-36
Silver Bowl to Dimrost (the Rainy Stair) per QS77.

Note : Changes 2 to 5 are the work of jallanite.Most of this is without question but with some I have some trouble:

RD-19 & 17
I am not sure in the moment, but I think Nauglath is still valide word for Dwarves in general. So in most circumstances I would let it stand.
The association of the Firebeards and Broadbeams with the Dwarves of the Ered Luin is clear. But How did you come to the conclusion that the Broadbeams were the Dwarves of Belegost? I would take the Firebeards as take over from the Indrafangs or Longbeards just by the association of both with beards.

RD-26
The change it self is unquestionable. But is Amras still alive in our version of the story?

RD-34
Galweg was the father of Flinding in The Tale of Turambar. The proper update would be Guilin father of Gwindor and Gelmir.

So, that's it for this thread. I will open a new one for each section that Meadhros had propused.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: Findegil ]

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Findegil
The association of the Firebeards and Broadbeams with the Dwarves of the Ered Luin is clear. But How did you come to the conclusion that the Broadbeams were the Dwarves of Belegost? I would take the Firebeards as take over from the Indrafangs or Longbeards just by the association of both with beards.

Well, it was basically because of the word order at the end of the note 24.

Originally posted by Findegil
The change it self is unquestionable. But is Amras still alive in our version of the story?

When I was making the changes, I was only preocuppied with the changes per se and not if they fitted in our latest version.

Originally posted by Findegil
Galweg was the father of Flinding in The Tale of Turambar. The proper update would be Guilin father of Gwindor and Gelmir.

Ok, I think that you are right, I will check it.

[Maédhros]

Other details that can be added to our Ruin of Doriath:
From The Peoples of ME: The Problem of Ros
and it was given by Elwing in memory of the great Hall of the Throne of Elwë in the midst of his stronghold of Menegroth that was called the Menelrond, because by the arts and aid of Melian its high arched roof had been adorned with silver and gems set in the order and figures of the stars in the great Dome of Valmar in Aman, whence Melian came.

and...

From Unfinished Tales: Description of the Land of Númenor
The King's sword was indeed Aranrúth, the sword of Elu Thingol of Doriath in Beleriand, that had descended to Elros from Elwing his mother. Other heirlooms there were beside: the Ring of Barahir; the great Axe of Tuor, father of Eärendil; and the Bow of Bregor of the House of Bëor. Only the Ring of Barahir father of Beren One-hand survived the Downfall; for it was given by Tar-Elendil to his daughter Silmarien and was preserved in the House of the Lords if Andunië, of whom the last was Elendil the Faithful who fled from the wrack of Númenor to Middle-earth. [Author's note.]—The story of the Ring of Barahir is told in The Silmarillion, Chapter XIX, and its later history in The Lord of the Rings Appendix A (I, iii and v). Of "the great Axe of Tuor" there is no mention in The Silmarillion, but it is named and described in the original "Fall of Gondolin" (1916-17, see p. iv), where it is said that in Gondolin Tuor carried an axe rather than a sword, and that he named it in the speech of the people of Gondolin Dramborleg. In a list of names accompanying the tale Dramborleg is translated "Thudder-Sharp": "the axe of Tuor that smote both a heavy dint as of a club and cleft as a sword."
Index:
Aranrúth: "King's Ire".

I was wondering if we could be more specific with these items as they were passed along in the story.

[Maédhros]

I wonder, now that it appears that our draft for the Fall of Gondolin seems to be over, dare I say it is time to tackle the previous chapter of the Ruin of Doriath in which much of the major work appears to be done by Findegil and myself?

[Findegil]

I also pondered that. But it could also be wise to run into the tale of Earendil first, since we had started a discussion on some points at the beginning of this tale as well.

Equally what we do, I would like to have a reminder of some small point which Aiwendil once brought up: Aiwendil did once criticise our styl of formating the edited text. He refered to a standard format agreed upon early in the project. I search for it but I have neither found the kritik of Aiwendil nor any early post were a format was agree upon. If some one could guide me to this I will rework my Fall of Doriath chapter and post a basic text for Of Eärendil and the War or Wrath (basic, because it is only the blend of the texts of Quenta Noldorinwa, Quenta Silmarillion and the emendations to the Later Quenta Silmarillion typoscript).

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Oh, what Aiwendil was referring was that the editorial additions by us should be between square brackets [], whereas the introduction of material from other sources: Book of Lost Tales, Narn, etc, should be in this type of brackets <>.
I had not implemented that because at that time, I had problems posting with those brackets and I used the square ones for the introduction of material as well as editorial additions.
This was later clarified by Mr. Underhill.

It is funny that we trying to finish first the last chapters instead of going in order. It has merit of course because it is the last chapters the ones that require the most work because of the state in which JRRT left them.

I wonder if we should go with Of Eärendil and the War of Wrath, instead of the Ruin of Doriath. We might as well go with Eärendil as to keep for the continuity.

[Aiwendil]

I think that after finishing the Fall of Gondolin it would be good to step back and discuss some general project issues and procedural things before immediately rushing into a new project.

I will open a new thread where we can discuss these things, as well as what our next project/projects should be.

[Findegil]

Reading this Post (and the following) it might seem that I had again to much time at my disposal. Properly that is the case, since I am in holyday at home in the moment. But on the other hand I did work for these posts for some time. The reason for this post was Meadhros Draft 4 for FoD, which he had send to me and which he hopped could be our working basis for the coming FoD discussions. But sad as it is I could not agree on this. Not only that some details of his text were not to my liking, I found also some points of the storyline he created to be not fitting my view of the story. While I was reading Maedhros draft I also marked some mistakes in the storyline of my own draft. Thus I thought that it would be best to discuss the storyline first. And this is the thread proposed to do it.
To do so we need to have a look at the sources, and I will in this post try to give an complete overview about all the storylines in the different sources we have for the Fall of Doriath. In some place I will only give short summary of the text to illuminate the Storyline. In other place were the source itself is more like a storyline or can only add to some particular points of interest I will give the source in full.

Since we agreed already on the beginning of our Tale to be the continuation of The Wanderings of Húrin I will start my research at the point were Húrin reached Nargothrond. In many cases (and also in our Tale) Húrin will have gathered by that time a band of “Outlaws” thus I will start with any storyline with a short description of that band.

The First account of the Fall of Doriath is given in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 2: The Book of Lost Tales 2; chapter II: Túrin Turambar and the Foaloke (TT) and chapter IV: The Tale of the Nauglafring (TN) I will give in this case an extracted Story line:
The Band of Húrin were here outlawed Elves “of the Hills”.
Húrin dealt Mîm (who was in that Tale unconnected to the earlier story of Túrin) to death because of the cruses Mîm did utter above the gold when Húrins Band bear it out of the hall.
Húrin brought his Band to carry the gold to Thingols halls.
There he cast the Gold at Thingols feet and left with an unknown fate. Later his soul is reported to hunt together with Morwens the forest of Brethil.
The Outlaws did bargain with Thingol and tried to cheat but were stopped by Elves that were already under the spell of the Dragon Gold.
The resulting fight in the hall was stopped by Thingols troops how killed the outlaws.
Ufedhin urged the King to sent part of the Gold to Nogord.
Thingol let bear half the gold to Nogord. Ufedhin is imprisoned as a security to get the gold back.
The Nauglath of Nogrod smith beautiful things for Thingol and bring them back.
Thingol imprisoned the dwarves to fashion the rest of the gold. The Dwarves make a second attempt at the gold. When they see that Thingol is happy with what they made they ask the favour to make the Nauglamir with the Silmaril.
When the Dwarves had fashioned the Necklace they do by the machinations of Ufedhin demand a unplayable price for all their labour.
The dwarves are humiliated, scanty paid and driven away with Ufedhin.
The Nauglath under their King Naugladur form an alliance with the Dwarves of Belegost under their King Bodruith and with the Orks. They hear of the death of Mîm and claim the gold to belong to the Dwarves.
The Dwarves pass the girdle by treachery of some Elves who are under the spell of the Gold.
Thingol is slain by the Nauglath during a hunt in which Mablung (also slain) and Huan take part. (Huan was in that version killed by Carcharoth but did reappear here without any explanation.)
Ufedhin with an Army of the Dwarves of Belegost and Orcs overruns Menegroth but is daunted by Melians eyes.
Naugladur comes to Menegroth bearing the Nauglamir and Thingols head on a pole. He let gather all the riches and tried to imprison Melian. But she leaves Menegroth wandering around without propose.
Naugladur left the rest of folk of Menegroth to the Orks and left with Ufedhin and all the Dwarves.
Huan brings the message to Beren and Lúthien (in Hithlum).
Beren gathers an Army of Green-Elves and pursuit the Dwarves.
Ufedhin tries to kill Naugladur and steal the Nauglamir, but is discovered by Bodruith whom he kills. Before he flees. A feud awakes between the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost and the Dwarves of Belegost are killed or driven away.
Ufedhin is captured by the Green-Elves and brought to Beren. He reveals the route that Naugladur will take to Nogrod.
Beren and his Green-Elves ambushes the Dwarves at the Ford Arosiach. Many Dwarves are killed by the Elven-archers, some fled away toward the mountains (nothing is told of their fate, if they are not identical with the later searchers who are killed by a flood.)
Beren assails Naugladur and his bodyguard. After he killed one of the guards the others fled. Beren fights with Naugladur. In the End he kills Naugladur with mere luck. Beren takes the Nauglamir but the treasure is cast in the River.
Lúthien wears the Nauglamir. When Melian appears, Ufedhin flies madden into the woods. After Melain is healed by Lúthien she tells the full tale and warns Beren and Luthien about the Nauglamir, so that Luthien does no longer wear it. Melain leaves toward Valinor.
After the early fading of Luthien her son Dior goes with his family and the Nauglamir to Doriath and re-established the Realm. When the Sons of Feanor hear of the Dior wearing the Nauglamir they send Curufin to Doriath and claim the Silmaril. The claim is rejected by Dior and Curufin send away with bitter words.
The Brothers assail Doriath. Dior and his Son Auredhir are killed. Elwing fled with the Nauglamir. A host of Diors Elves came lat into the battle and fell at the rear of Feanorians. In the text Maglor is slain by swords and Amras dies by wounds in the wild. Celegrom and Caranthir are shot with arrows. But the Feanorians won the day.
After some wandering in the woods Elwing gathers the remnant of the Elves and wanders to Havens of Sirion.

The next telling of the tale was The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter II: The Earliest ‘Silmarillion’ or Sketch of the Mythology (S). I will give it in full, since it is not much more than an outline:Hurin and outlaws come to Nargothrond, whom none dare plunder for dread of the spirit of Glorung' or even of his memory. They slay Mim the Dwarf who had taken possession and enchanted all the gold. Hurin casts the gold at Thingol's feet with reproaches. Thingol will not have it, and bears with Hurin, until goaded too far he bids him begone. Hurin wanders away and seeks Morwen, and many for ages after related that they met them together in the woods lamenting their children.
The enchanted gold lays its spell on Thingol. He summons the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost to come and fashion it into beautiful things, and to make a necklace of great wonder whereon the Silmaril shall hang. The Dwarves plot treachery, and Thingol bitter with the curse of the gold denies them their reward. After their smithying they are driven away without payment. The Dwarves come back; aided by treachery of some Gnomes who also were bitten by the lust of the gold, they surprise Thingol on a hunt, slay him, and surprise the Thousand Caves and plunder them. Melian they cannot touch. She goes away to seek Beren and Luthien.
The Dwarves are ambushed at a ford by Beren and the brown and green Elves of the wood, and their king slain, from whose neck Beren takes the 'Nauglafring'(2) or necklace of the Dwarves, with its Silmaril. It is said that Luthien wearing that jewel is the most beautiful thing that eyes have ever seen outside Valinor. But Melian warned Beren of the curse of the gold and of the Silmaril. The rest of the gold is drowned in the river.
But the 'Nauglafring'(3) remains hoarded secretly in Beren's keeping. When Mandos let Beren return with Luthien, it was only at the price that Luthien should become as shortlived as Beren the mortal. Luthien now fades, even as the Elves in later days faded as Men grew strong and took the goodness of earth (for the Elves needed the light of the Trees). At last she vanished, and Beren was lost, looking in vain for her, and his son Dior ruled after him. Dior re-established Doriath and grew proud, and wore the 'Nauglafring', and the fame of the Silmaril went abroad. After vain bargaining the sons of Feanor made war on him (the second slaying of Elf by Elf) and destroyed him, and took the 'Nauglafring'. They quarrelled over it, owing to the curse of the gold, until only Maglor was left. But Elwing daughter of Dior was saved and carried away to the mouth of the river Sirion.(4)

Notes:
1. The name Glorung is not here emended, as in $13, to Glomund, but ad is written over the g, sc. Glorund (the earliest form of the name of the Dragon).
2. At the first occurrence only of Nauglafring, th is pencilled above, i.e. Nauglathring or Nauglathfring.
3. Above Nauglafring here my father wrote Dweorgmene [Old English, 'Dwarf-necklace']; this was struck out, and Glingna Nauglir substituted.
4 The conclusion of this section was changed very soon after it was written, since in §17 already as first written the Nauglafring is with Elwing at the mouth of Sirion:

After vain bargaining the sons of Feanor made war on him (the second slaying of Elf by Elf) and destroyed him. But Elwing daughter of Dior, Beren's son, escaped, and was carried away by faithful servants to the mouth of the river Sirion. With her went the Nauglafring.
The next step in the development is the last finished account of the event: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30) Since even that text is very short I will again give the chapter in full: Hurin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of Glomund and his very memory. But one Mim the Dwarf they found there. This is the first coming of the Dwarves into these tales(1) of the ancient world; and it is said that Dwarves first spread west from Erydluin,(2) the Blue Mountains, into Beleriand after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Now Mim had found the halls and treasure of Nargothrond unguarded; and he took possession of them, and sat there in joy fingering the gold and gems, and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells. But the folk of Mim were few, and the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew them, though Hurin would have stayed them, and at his death Mim cursed the gold.
And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Hurin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Hurin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves. Then Hurin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, and he reproached the Elfking with wild and bitter words. 'Receive thou,' said he, 'thy fee for thy fair keeping of my wife and kin.'
Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, and long he bore with Hurin; but Hurin scorned him, and wandered forth in quest of Morwen his wife, but it is not said that he found her ever upon the earth; and some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men.
Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth. Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems (for much was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril.
But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mim?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.
And Thingol, falling deeper into the thraldom of the spell, for his part scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls. There many Elves and Dwarves were slain, and the howe wherein they were laid in Doriath was named Cum-nan-Arasaith, the Mound of Avarice. But the remainder of the Dwarves were driven forth without reward or fee.
Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod and in Belegost they returned at length, and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen they passed into Doriath secretly. There they surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms; and Thingol was slain, and the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered; and so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand.
Queen Melian the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she went forth to seek Beren and Luthien. Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the River Ascar,(3) where aforetime were the hunting grounds of Damrod and Diriel, sons of Feanor. To the south of those lands between the river and the mountains lay the land of Assariad, and there (4) lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Luthien, in that time of respite which Luthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of Cor,(5) nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Luthien remained Men called it oft Cuilwarthien,(6) the Land of the Dead that Live.
To the north of that region is a ford across the river Ascar, near to its joining with Duilwen (7) that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named Sarn-athra,(8) the Ford of Stones. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached their homes(9) and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host. But Beren took the Nauglafring,(10) the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril; and it is said and sung that Luthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathlorion,(11) Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained.
And in time the brief hour of the loveliness of the land of Rathlorion departed. For Luthien faded as Mandos had spoken, even as the Elves of later days faded, when Men waxed strong and usurped the goodness of the earth; and she vanished from the world; and Beren died, and none know where their meeting shall be again.(12)
Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Luthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of Men, and of the Elves, and of the spirits divine of Valinor; yet it shielded him not from the fate of the oath of the sons of Feanor. For Dior went back to Doriath and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, and she departed to the land of the Gods beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.
But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. The sons of Feanor, when he would not yield the jewel unto them, came(13) upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain(14) and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.
Yet the sons of Feanor gained not the Silmaril; for faithful servants fled before them and took with them Elwing the daughter of Dior, and she escaped, and they bore with them the Nauglafring, and came in time to the mouth of the river Sirion by the sea.

Notes:
1. This is the first coming of the Dwarves into these tales > Now for the first time did the Dwarves take part in these tales
2. Eryd-luin > Ered-luin (late change).
3. Ascar > Flend > Gelion at the first two occurrences, but left un changed at the third.
4. This sentence emended to read: To the south of those lands between the river Flend [> Gelion ] and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, Flend [> Gelion], Ascar, Thalos, Loeglin [> Legolin ], Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant. There lived, &c. (The rivers were first written Flend, Ascar, Thalos, Loeglin, Brilthor, Adurant. Duilwen was then added between Thalos and Loeglin; then Legolin replaced Loeglin and Duilwen was moved to stand between Brilthor and Adurant.)
5. Cor > Kor, as previously.
6. Men called it oft Cuilwarthien > Elves called it oft Gwenh-i-cuina (see $10 note 15).
7. Duilwen > Ascar (see p. 285, entry Dwarf-road).
8. Sarn-athra > Sarn-athrad.
9. ere they reached their homes > ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes
10. Nauglafring > Nauglamir at both occurrences (late changes).
11. Rathlorion > Rathloriel at both occurrences (late changes).
12. Added here:
Yet it hath been sung that Luthien alone of Elves hath been numbered among our race, and goeth whither we go to a fate beyond the world.
A large pencilled X is made in the margin against the sentence in the typescript beginning For Luthien faded...; in my father's manuscripts this always implies that there is some misstatement in the text that requires revision.
13. The words The sons of Feanor, when were struck out, and the sentence enlarged thus:
For while Luthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even Maidros dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the seven gathered again from wandering; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came, &c.
14. Added here: and his young sons Eldun and Elrun (late change).
That is all we have in the form of a closed narrative. It might be of some interest, that this text was included in the typescripts of the LQ2 series in 1958, but Tolkien did not made any change to the text in that typescript.
It remain only the Annals with their scanty words and some hints given later in separate Notes.
Lets start with the earliest Annals The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter VII: The Earliest Annals of Beleriand (AB1)200 … Here was born also Elwing the White, fairest of women save Luthien, unto Dior in Ossiriand.
Hurin gathers men unto him. They find the treasure of Nargothrond and slay Mim the Dwarf who had taken it to himself. The treasure is cursed. The treasure is brought to Thingol.
But Hurin departs from Doriath with bitter words, but of his fate and of Morwen's after no certain tidings are known.

201 Thingol employs the Dwarves to smithy his gold and silver and the treasure of Narog, and they make the renowned Nauglafring,(60) the Dwarfnecklace, whereon is hung the Silmaril. Enmity awakes (61) between the Elves and Dwarves, and the Dwarves are driven away.

202 Here the Dwarves invaded Doriath aided by treachery, for many Elves were smitten with the accursed lust of the treasure. Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves sacked. But Melian the divine could not be taken and departed to Ossiriand.
Beren(62) summoned by Melian overthrew the Dwarves at Sarn-Athra (63) and cast the gold into the River Asgar, which afterwards was called Rathlorion (64) the Golden-bed; but the Nauglafring and the Silmaril he took. Luthien wore the necklace and the Silmaril on her breast. Here Beren and Luthien depart out of men's knowledge and their deathday is not known; save that at night a messenger brought the necklace unto Dior in Doriath, and the Elves said: 'Luthien and Beren are dead as Mandos doomed.'
Dior son of Luthien and Beren, Thingol's heir, returned unto Doriath and for a while reestablished it, but Melian went back to Valinor and he had no longer her protection.

203 The necklace came to Dior; he wore it on his breast.

205 The sons of Feanor hear tidings of the Silmaril in the East, and gather from wandering and hold council. They summon Dior to give up the jewel.

206 Here Dior fought the sons of Feanor on the east marches of Doriath. but he was slain. Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir fell in battle. The young sons of Dior, Elboron and Elbereth, were slain by the evil men of Maidros' host, and Maidros bewailed the foul deed. The maiden Elwing was saved by faithful Elves and taken to Sirion's mouth, and with them they took the jewel and the necklace.

Notes:
60 Nauglafring > Nauglamir (later change); again in annal 202.
61 Enmity awakes is an early change from War ensues.
62 Later addition: and the Green-elves (cf. note 34).
63 Sarn-Athra > Sarn-Athrad (later change). The same change is made in Q[30] ($14, note 8).
64 Rathlorion > Rathloriel (later change). The same change is made in Q[30] ($14, note 11).

Farther developments took place in the next Annals The History of Middle-Earth; volume 5: The Lost Road; Part 2: Valinor and Middle-Earth before The Lord of the Rings; chapter III: The Later Annals of Beleriand (AB2) 500 … In this year was born also Elwing the White, fairest of all women save Luthien, unto Dior son of Beren in Ossiriand.
Hurin gathered men unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, and slew the dwarf Mim, who had taken the treasure unto himself. But Mim cursed the treasure. Hurin brought the gold to Thingol in Doriath, but he departed thence again with bitter words, and of his fate and the fate of Morwen thereafter no sure tidings were ever heard.

501 Thingol employed Dwarvish craftsmen to fashion his gold and silver and the treasure of Nargothrond; and they made the renowned Nauglamir, the Dwarf-necklace, whereon was hung the Silmaril. Enmity awoke between Dwarves and Elves, and the Dwarves were driven away unrewarded.

502 Here the Dwarves (41) came in force from Nogrod and from Belegost and invaded Doriath; and they came within by treachery, for many Elves were smitten with the accursed lust of the gold. Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves were plundered; and there hath been war between Elf and Dwarf since that day. But Melian the Queen could not be slain or taken, and she departed to Ossiriand.
Beren and the Green-elves overthrew the Dwarves at Sarn-Athrad as they returned eastward, and the gold was cast into the river Ascar, which was after called Rathloriel, the Bed of Gold.
But Beren took the Nauglamir and the Silmaril. Luthien wore the Silmaril upon her breast. Dior their son ruled over the remnants of the Elves of Doriath.

503 Here Beren and Luthien departed out of the knowledge of Elves and Men, and their deathday is not known; but at night a messenger brought the necklace to Dior in Doriath, and the Elves said: 'Luthien and Beren are dead as Mandos doomed.'

504 Dior son of Beren, Thingol's heir, was now king in Doriath, and he re-established it for a while. But Melian went back to Valinor and Doriath had no longer her protection. Dior wore the Nauglamir and the Silmaril upon his breast.

505 The sons of Feanor heard tidings of the Silmaril in the East, and they gathered from wandering, and held council together. Maidros sent unto Dior and summoned him to give up the jewel.

506 Here Dior Thingol's heir fought the sons of Feanor on the east marches of Doriath, but he was slain. This was the second kinslaying, and the fruit of the oath. Celegorm fell in that battle, and Curufin, and Cranthir. The young sons of Dior, Elboron and Elbereth,(42) were taken captive by the evil men of Maidros' following, and they were left to starve in the woods; but Maidros lamented the cruel deed, and sought unavailingly for them.
The maiden Elwing was saved by faithful Elves, and they fled with her to the mouths of Sirion, and they took with them the jewel and the necklace, and Maidros found it not.

Notes:
41. Dwarves > Dwarfs (the only occurrence of the change in the text). See commentary on QS $122.
42. Elboron and Elbereth > Elrun and Eldun (a hasty pencilled change). See IV. 325 - 6 and the Etymologies, stem BARATH.
Last but not least we have the latest Annals ever made The History of Middle-Earth; volume 11: The War of the Jewels; part 3: The Wanderings of Húrin and other writings not forming part of The Quenta Silmarillion; chapter V. The Tale of the Years (I will give here all parts of the chapter that are concerned with the Fall of Doriath, since the content is in my view of essential importance, equally if it is JRR Tolkiens own script or Christopher Tolkiens comments. (TY) The Tale of Years was an evolving work that accompanied successive stages in the development of the Annals. I have given it no place hitherto in The History of Middle-earth (but see X.49), because its value to the narrative of the Elder Days is very small until towards the end of the later (post-Lord of the Rings) version, when it becomes a document of importance; but here some very brief account of it must be given.
The earliest form is a manuscript with this title that sets out in very concise form the major events of the Elder Days. The dates throughout are in all but perfect accord with those given in the pre-Lord of the Rings texts 'The Later Annals of Valinor' and 'The Later Annals of Beleriand' (AV 2 and AB 2). Since this Tale of Years was obviously written as an accompaniment to and at the same time as those versions of the Annals, adding nothing to them, I did not include it in Volume V.
Much later a new version of The Tale of Years was made, and this alone will concern us here. It very clearly belongs with the major work on the Annals carried out in 1951( - 2), issuing in the last versions, the Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals. My father subsequently made a typescript text of it, but this obviously belongs to the same period.
…
Of the latter or Beleriandic part of The Tale of Years there is little to say until the last entries are reached. The chronology agrees closely with that of the Grey Annals, including the revised stories of the origins of Gondolin and of Eol, and the brief entries (agreeing with GA in such names as Galion for Galdor and Glindur for Maeglin) add nothing to the major text. …
But from the point where the Grey Annals were abandoned The Tale of Years becomes a major source for the end of the Elder Days, and indeed in almost all respects the only source deriving from the time following the completion of The Lord of the Rings, woefully inadequate as it is. As the manuscript was originally made (in which condition I will distinguish it as 'A') the entries from 500 to the end, very brief, followed the first (pre-Lord of the Rings) version of The Tale of Years (see p. 342) closely: my father clearly had that in front of him, and did no more than make a fair copy with fuller entries, introducing virtually no new matter or dates not found in AB 2 (V.141 - 4). It will make things clearer, however, to give the text of the entries for those years as they were first written.

500 Birth of Earendil in Gondolin.
501 Making of the Naugla-mir. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves.
502 The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian returns to Valinor. Beren destroys the Dwarf-host at Rath-loriel.
506 The Second Kin-slaying.
…
In the next stage, which I will call 'B', many corrections and interpolations and alterations of date were made to A; I give here the text in this form, so far as is necessary.

501 Return of Hurin.
502 After seven years' service Tuor weds Idril of Gondolin.
Making of the Naugla-mir. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves.
503 Birth of Earendil in Gondolin.
The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian takes Nauglamir to Beren and Luthien and then returns to Valinor. Celegorm and Curufin destroy the Dwarf-host at Sarn-athrad in Rath-loriel; and are wroth to find the Silmaril not there. Dior goes to Doriath.
505 (Spring) Second death of Beren, and Luthien dies also. Dior Thingol's heir wears Silmaril [struck out: and returns to Doriath].
509 (Spring) Second Kinslaying. …
…
The hastily made alterations and additions to the entry 503 (502 in A) introduced major new turns into the story as it had been told in all the versions: the tale of The Nauglafring (II.238), the Sketch of the Mythology (IV.33), the Quenta (IV.134), and AB 2 (V.141). There it was Beren, after his return from the dead, who with his host of Elves ambushed the Dwarves at Sarn-athrad, and took from them the Nauglamir in which was set the Silmaril; now it becomes Celegorm and Curufin who fought the battle at Sarn-athrad - but the Silmaril was not there, because Melian had taken it from Menegroth to Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand. In the old tale, Gwendelin (Melian), coming to the Land of the Dead that Live after the battle, was wrathful when she saw Luthien wearing the Necklace of the Dwarves, since it was made of accursed gold, and the Silmaril itself was unhallowed from its having been set in Morgoth's crown; while in the Sketch (probably) and in the Quenta (explicitly) it was Melian who told Beren of the approach of the Dwarves coming from Doriath and enabled the ambush to be prepared (her warning afterwards, when the Necklace of the Dwarves had been recovered, against the Silmaril being retained).
The entrance of Celegorm and Curufin into the story seems to have arisen in the act of emending the text; for my father first added to the original entry ('Beren destroys the Dwarf-host at Rath-loriel') the words 'and is wounded in battle', referring to Beren (cf. the Tale, II.237: 'Beren got many hurts'). He then at once changed 'Beren destroys' to 'Celegorm and Curufin destroy' and 'is wounded in battle' to 'are wroth to find the Silmaril not there'.
In the original entry in A 'at Rath-loriel' was just a slip for 'in'; but the replacement 'at Sarn-athrad in Rath-loriel' is strange, for Sarn-athrad was not a ford over that river (Ascar) but over Gelion, and so remained in the latest writing, though the name was changed (see p. 335).
In 505, the striking out of Dior's return to Doriath preceded its inclusion under 503. …

The third stage was the striking out of the whole manuscript from the year 400 almost to the end, and its replacement by a new version ('C'), which I give here for the same period, from the return of Hurin from Angband: this is a clear text with some later changes to the dates (changes which largely return the dates to those in B).
501 Return of Hurin from captivity. He goes to Nargothrond and seizes the treasure of Glaurung.
502 Making of the Nauglamir. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves.
503 The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod invade Doriath. Thingol is slain, and his realm ended. The Dwarves carry off the Dragon-gold, but Melian escaped and carried off the Nauglamir and the Silmaril, and brought it to Beren and Luthien. Then she returned to Valinor; but Luthien wore the Silmaril. Now Curufin and Celegorm hearing of the sack of Menegroth ambushed the Dwarves at the fords of Ascar and defeated them; but the Dwarves cast the gold into the river, which was after named Rathloriel. Great was the chagrin of the Sons of Feanor to discover that the Silmaril was not with the Dwarves; but they dared not assail Luthien.
Dior goes to Doriath and endeavours to reestablish the realm.
504 [> 502] Tuor wedded Idril Celebrindal Turgon's daughter of Gondolin.
505 [> 503] Birth of Earendil Half-elven in Gondolin (Spring).
Here a messenger brought the Silmaril by night to Dior in Doriath, and he wore it; and by its power Doriath revived for a while. But it is believed that in this year Luthien and Beren passed away, for they were never heard of again on earth: mayhap the Silmaril hastened their end, for the flame of the beauty of Luthien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands.
511 [> 509] The Second Kinslaying. The Sons of Feanor assail[ed] Dior, and he was slain; slain also were Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir. Eldun and Elrun sons of Dior were left in the woods to starve. Elwing escaped and came with the Silmaril to the Mouths of Sirion. …
…
… In the entries 400-499 in C (not given here) this text is so close in every date and detail of narrative to the Grey Annals as to be scarcely an independent document; and The Tale of Years was beginning to turn in on itself, so to speak, and to become 'Annals' again. In the entries given above, where we reach narrative not treated in GA and where AB 2 is otherwise the latest source, it is much to be regretted that my father did not allow this tendency even fuller scope, and did not extend into a more substantial narrative of Celegorm and Curufin at Sarn Athrad, the revival of Doriath, and the Second Kinslaying.
I add a few notes on particular points.
503 The ford at which the Dwarves were ambushed, not now itself named, is still over Ascar, not Gelion (see p. 347). The statement that the Dwarves 'cast the gold into the river' is at variance with the story told in the Sketch and the Quenta (where this was done by Beren and the Green-elves), and was perhaps a conscious return to the tale of The Nauglafring (II.237), in which the gold fell into the river with the bodies of the Dwarves who bore it, or else was cast into the water by Dwarves seeking to reach the banks.
505 With the changed dating of this entry the whole narrative of the invasion of Doriath, the battle at the ford, the coming of Dior to Doriath, the deaths of Beren and Luthien, and the bringing of the Silmaril to Dior, is comprised within the single year 503. - The brief revival of Doriath under Dior has not before been associated with the Silmaril; cf. what is said of its presence at the Havens of Sirion (pp. 351, 354). On the probable association of the Silmaril with the deaths of Beren and Luthien (though of an entirely different nature from that suggested here) see IV.63, 190.
511 On the fate of Dior's sons cf. AB 2 (V.142), where it is told that they 'were taken captive by the evil men of Maidros' following, and they were left to starve in the woods; but Maidros lamented the cruel deed, and sought unavailingly for them.' …

Finally, we come to stage 'D', the typescript of The Tale of Years; but before turning to the entries beginning with the return of Hurin there are two pencilled entries on the typescript at a slightly earlier point which must be noticed:

497 Dior weds of the Green-elves > Dior weds Nimloth.
500 Birth of the twin sons of Dior, Elrun and Eldun.

In connection with the first of these, there is an isolated note (it was written in fact on the back of the single page concerning the Dragon-helm of Dorlomin referred to on pp. 140, 143):
Dior born (in Tol Galen?) c.470. He appears in Doriath after its ruin, and is welcomed by Melian with his wife Elulin of Ossiriand.
On this note see p. 353, year 504. The fourth letter of Elulin is not perfectly certain. - In addition, the name of Dior's wife is also given as Lindis: see pp. 351, 353.
The name Nimloth was adopted in the published Silmarillion (see p. 234, where she is said to be 'kinswoman of Celeborn') on account of its appearance in the series of Elvish genealogies which can be dated to December 1959 (p. 229). This table gives the descendants of Elwe (Thingol) and of his younger brother Elmo, of whom it is said that he was 'beloved of Elwe with whom he remained.' On one side of the table (descent from Elwe) the wife of Dior Eluchil (Thingol's heir) is Nimloth 'sister of Celeborn'. Similarly on the other side, Elmo's son is Galahon, and Galahon has two sons, Galathil and Celeborn 'prince of Doriath', and a daughter Nimloth, wife of Dior Eluchil. But on the same table Nimloth wife of Dior also appears as the daughter of Galathil (thus in the first case she was the second cousin of Dior, and in the latter the third cousin of Elwing). It is clear from rough pencillings on this page that my father was uncertain about this, and it looks as if Nimloth as niece of Celeborn was his second thought. I referred to this genealogy in Unfinished Tales, p. 233, but did not mention the alternative placing of Nimloth as Celeborn's sister.
On the second of these late additions to the typescript, the birth of Eldun and Elrun in the year 500, see pp. 257 and 300, note 16.

I give now the text of the typescript of The Tale of Years in its concluding entries. At the end the typescript becomes manuscript, and it is convenient to distinguish the two parts as 'D 1' and 'D 2'.
501 Hurin is released from captivity. He goes to Nargothrond and seizes the treasure of Glaurung. He takes the treasure to Menegroth and casts it at the feet of Thingol.
502 The Nauglamir is wrought of the treasure of Glaurung, and the Silmaril is hung thereon. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves who had wrought for him the Necklace.
503 The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod invade Doriath. King Elu Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian escapes and carries away the Nauglamir and the Silmaril, and brings them to Beren and Luthien. She then forsook Middle-earth and returned to Valinor.
Curufin and Celegorm, hearing of the sack of Menegroth, ambushed the Dwarves at the Fords of Ascar as they sought to carry off the Dragon-gold to the mountains. The Dwarves were defeated with great loss, but they cast the gold into the river, which was therefore after named Rathloriel. Great was the anger of the sons of Feanor to discover that the Silmaril was not with the Dwarves; but they dared not to assail Luthien. Dior goes to Doriath and endeavours to recover the realm of Thingol.
…
In the autumn of this year a messenger brought by night the Silmaril to Dior in Doriath.

Here the typewritten text D 1 ends abruptly near the head of a page, but is continued in very rough manuscript for some distance (D 2), though not so far as the end of version C (which itself did not go by any mean's so far as B).

503 Elwing the White daughter of Dior born in Ossiriand.
504 Dior returns to Doriath, and with the power of the Silmaril restores it; but Melian departed to Valinor. Dior now publicly wore the Nauglamir and the Jewel.
505 The sons of Feanor hearing news of the Silmaril that it is in Doriath hold council. Maidros restrains his brethren, but a message is sent to Dior demanding the Jewel. Dior returns no answer.
506 Celegorn inflames the brethren, and they prepare an assault on Doriath. They come up at unawares in winter.
506-507 At Yule Dior fought the sons of Feanor on the east marches of Doriath, and was slain. There fell also Celegorn (by Dior's hand) and Curufin and Cranthir. The cruel servants of Celegorn seize Dior's sons (Elrun and Eldun) and leave them to starve in the forest. (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir.) The Lady Lindis escaped with Elwing, and came hardly to Ossir, with the Necklace and the Jewel. Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion.
…
… A commentary on it [the text] follows.
501 In the original story of Hurin's coming to Menegroth in the Tale of Turambar (II.114 - 15) he with his 'band' or 'host' of 'wild Elves' brought the treasure of Nargothrond in a huge assemblage of sacks and boxes, and they 'cast down that treasury at the king's feet.' So also in the Sketch of the Mythology (IV.32) 'Hurin casts the gold at Thingol's feet', without however any indication of how the gold was brought to Doriath; but in the Quenta (IV.132) 'Hurin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves' (on the unsatisfactory nature of this version see IV.188). In AB 2 (V.141) 'Hurin brought the gold to Thingol.' See further p. 258.
503. Against 'The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod invade Doriath' my father pencilled an X and the single word 'cannot': i.e., the Dwarves could not pass the Girdle of Melian. In the old sources the protective magic was defeated by the device of a treacherous Elf (in the Tale) or Elves (in the Sketch and the Quenta); but since the Quenta the question had never again come to the surface. In this connection there is a page of rough notes, such as my father often made when meditating on a story at large, concerned with the 'Turins Saga' (such as 'An account of Beleg and his bow must be put in at the point where Turin first meets him', and 'Turin must be faithless to Gwindor - for his character is throughout that of a man of good will, kind and loyal, who is carried away by emotion, especially wrath ...'); and among these and written at the same time, though entirely unconnected, is the following:

Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.

The word 'cannot' may well have been written against the entry for 503 in The Tale of Years at the same time as this.
The story that it was Celegorm and Curufin who ambushed the Dwarves at 'the Fords of Ascar' is repeated without change from the previous version C (p. 348). There is a passing reference to a similar story (for in this case it was Caranthir, not Celegorm and Curufin) in the post-Lord of the Rings text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn. This was published in Unfinished Tales in a 'retold', somewhat selective form for the purposes of that section of the book; and in the passage (p. 235) saying that Celeborn had no love for any Dwarves, and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath ('passing over Morgoth's part in this (by angering of Hurin), and Thingol's own faults'), my father proposed rather than stated that only the Dwarves of Nogrod took part in the assault, and that they were 'almost entirely destroyed by Caranthir'.
This was not, however, his final view, as it appears. In a letter of 1963 (Letters no.247, p. 334) he wrote that he could 'foresee' one event in the Elder Days in which the Ents took a part:
It was in Ossiriand ... that Beren and Luthien dwelt for a while after Beren's return from the Dead. Beren did not show himself among mortals again, except once. He intercepted a dwarf-army that had descended from the mountains, sacked the realm of Doriath and slain King Thingol, Luthien's father, carrying off a great booty, including Thingol's necklace upon which hung the Silmaril. There was a battle about a ford across one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir, and the Silmaril was recovered ... It seems clear that Beren, who had no army, received the aid of the Ents - and that would not make for love between Ents and Dwarves.

In this it is also notable that the old story that the Dwarves took the Nauglamir from Menegroth reappears (see pp. 346-7).
Beneath the -loriel of Rathloriel my father wrote in pencil: lorion (Rathlorion was the original form of this river-name), but he struck this out and then wrote mallen, sc. Rathmallen (cf. Rathmalad (?) on the map, p. 191, §69).
504 Dior's return to Doriath has been given already under 503 in D 1, the typescript part of the text. - In the B and C versions (pp. 346-7) Melian brought the Silmaril to Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand and then departed to Valinor, and this is said also in D 1 (p. 350). The present entry in D 2, a year later, repeats that Melian went to Valinor, and the suggestion is that she was in Doriath when Dior came; cf. the note cited on p. 350: 'Dior... appears in Doriath after its ruin, and is welcomed by Melian'. This seems clearly to have been the story in AB 1 (IV.307) and AB 2 (V.141 - 2). But it is impossible to be certain of anything with such compressed entries.
506-507 Ossir: Ossiriand. - On Maidros' unavailing search for Elrun and Eldun see p. 349, year 511.
The Lady Lindis: Lindis appears elsewhere as the name of Dior's wife (see p. 257). The sentence 'Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion' presumably means that Lindis heard the rumour that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens (an event recorded in this text under the year 511).
…
It would be interesting to know when this manuscript conclusion D 2 was written. It looks as if it belongs with some of the alterations and additions made to the typescript in earlier entries, particularly those pertaining to the story of Turin, and in these there are suggestions that they derive from the period of my father's work on the Narn. But this is very uncertain; and if it is so, it is the more remarkable that he should have based these entries so closely on the old pre-Lord of the Rings annals.

A note on Chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath in the published Silmarillion.

Apart from a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published, all that my father ever wrote on the subject of the ruin of Doriath has now been set out: from the original story told in the Tale of Turambar (II.113-15) and the Tale of the Nauglafring (II.221 ff.), through the Sketch of the Mythology (IV.32 - 3, with commentary 61 - 3) and the Quenta (IV.132 - 4, with commentary 187-91), together with what little can be gleaned from The Tale of Years and a very few later references (see especially pp. 352 - 3). If these materials are compared with the story told in [i]The Silmarillion it is seen at once that this latter is fundamentally changed, to a form for which in certain essential features there is no authority whatever in my father's own writings.
There were very evident problems with the old story. Had he ever turned to it again, my father would undoubtedly have found some solution other than that in the Quenta to the question, How was the treasure of Nargothrond brought to Doriath? There, the curse that Mim laid upon the gold at his death 'came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Hurin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Hurin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.' As I said in IV.188, 'it ruins the gesture, if Hurin must get the king himself to send for the gold with which he is then to be humiliated'. It seems to me most likely (but this is mere speculation) that my father would have reintroduced the outlaws from the old Tales (II.113-15, 222-3) as the bearers of the treasure (though not the fierce battle between them and the Elves of the Thousand Caves): in the scrappy writings at the end of The Wanderings of Hurin Asgon and his companions reappear after the disaster in Brethil and go with Hurin to Nargothrond (pp. 306 - 7)
How he would have treated Thingol's behaviour towards the Dwarves is impossible to say. That story was only once told fully, in the Tale of the Nauglafring, in which the conduct of Tinwelint (precursor of Thingol) was wholly at variance with the later conception of the king (see II.245-6). In the Sketch no more is said of the matter than that the Dwarves were 'driven away without payment', while in the Quenta 'Thingol... scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls'. There seems to be no clue or hint in later writing (in The Tale of Years the same bare phrase is used in all the versions: 'Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves'), unless one is seen in the words quoted from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn on p. 353: Celeborn in his view of the destruction of Doriath ignored Morgoth's part in it 'and Thingol's own faults'.
In The Tale of Years my father seems not to have considered the problem of the passage of the Dwarvish host into Doriath despite the Girdle of Melian, but in writing the word 'cannot' against the D version (p. 352) he showed that he regarded the story he had outlined as impossible, for that reason. In another place he sketched a possible solution (ibid.): 'Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.'

In the story that appears in The Silmarillion the outlaws who went with Hurin to Nargothrond were removed, as also was the curse of Mim; and the only treasure that Hurin took from Nargothrond was the Nauglamir - which was here supposed to have been made by Dwarves for Finrod Felagund, and to have been the most prized by him of all the hoard of Nargothrond. Hurin was represented as being at last freed from the delusions inspired by Morgoth in his encounter with Melian in Menegroth. The Dwarves who set the Silmaril in the Nauglamir were already in Menegroth engaged on other works, and it was they who slew Thingol; at that time Melian's power was withdrawn from Neldoreth and Region, and she vanished out of Middle-earth, leaving Doriath unprotected. The ambush and destruction of the Dwarves at Sarn Athrad was given again to Beren and the Green Elves (following my father's letter of 1963 quoted on p. 353, where the Ents, 'Shepherds of the Trees', were introduced.
This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long experimentation among alternative conceptions. In this work Guy Kay took a major part, and the chapter that I finally wrote owes much to my discussions with him. It is, and was, obvious that a Step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing in the course of the book: even in the case of the story of The Fall of Gondolin, to which my father had never returned, something could be contrived without introducing radical changes in the narrative. It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.
It remains at last to give a storyline in the chapter 22 The Fall of Doriath of The Quenta Silmarillion in the published The Silmarillion (Sil77). The changes introduce by Christopher Tolkien are mentioned already above, but I still will give a short storyline:

Hurin has no companions, when he reaches Nargothrond. He killed Mîm because of Mîms treason against Turin. The hoard is not crused further than being a dragon-hoard. Hurin only took the Nauglamir and brought it to Menegroth. Hurin is healed by Melian, but gave the Nauglamir nonetheless to Thingol who accepted it. Hurin left Menegroth and it is told that he cast himself in the western sea.
Some Dwarves of Nogrod are already in Menegroth and Thingol bid them to bring the Silmaril and the Nauglamir together. He is with the Dwarves during the smithy and when the work is done the Dwarves withheld the Nauglamir from him. Thingol scorned and denied the Dwarves any payment and is slain by them. The Dwarves take the Nauglamir and passed out Menegroth but were pursued and slain save two. The Nauglamir is brought back to Menegroth and guarded by Mablung. The two surviving Dwarves made it to Nogrod, and told there only that the Dwarves were slain by the command of Thingol to cheat them of their reward. The Dwarves of Nogrod ask the aid of Belegost but it is denied. A host of Nogord marched to Doriath.
After the death of Thingol Melain sends word to Beren and Luthien and left Doritah and went to Valinor.
The Dwarves invade Doriath and take Menegroth. There they kill Mablung and take the Nauglamir.
Beren with Dior and the Green-Elves of Ossiriand ambush the Dwarves at Saran Athrad. Dwarves that made it out of the battle are killed by the Ents. Beren kills the Lord of Nogord but he crused the Hoard. Thus Beren only takes the Nauglamir and the rest of the Hoard is drowned in the river Ascar.
Dior left Ossiriand and re-established Doriath. He receives the Nauglamir after the death of Beren and Luthien.
The Sons of Feanor claim the Silmaril but Dior made no answer. Celegorm stirred his brethren and they attack Doriath. The kill Dior in Menegroth. Celegrom is slain by Dior and Curufin and Caranthir are also slain. Nimloth is also killed and the Sons of Dior left to strafe in the woods.
But a few Elves fled before the Feanorians and with them was Elwing with the Nauglamir.

So fare with the sources. The next step it must be to bring them together to a storyline that we will adopt, and I will try that in the next post.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

In this post I will try to develop a storyline that can be adopted for our Version of FoD. I will not recapitulate the storylines that were developed by Maedhros and myself for our drafts of the story. After we have found the storyline that we want we should make a intense comparison.
I will number the single entities I see in the storyline for better reference with FD-SL-ZZ (SL for storyline).

FD-SL-01 From the notes at the end of The Wanderings of Húrin it is clear that the Band that Húrin gathered were of four-fold origin: Asgons Outlaws of Hithlum, part of Manthors party in Brethil that were not willing to live under Avranc, some people of Brethil that despaired in defending Brethil and some of the Woodmen from south of Taeglin. (These groups are the key to explain their behaviour later on. In my view the Outlaws are a very divergent group with Asgon and Ragnir as voices of opposite positions. The followers of Manthor would take Húrin as their rightful ruler as the last know decedent of the Haladin. The other two groups would go with them to find some better life as they had have so fare. They would most likely side with the Ragnir party and would rather take their share in the treasure than humiliate Thingol with it.)

FD-SL-02 Húrin elected to go to Nargothrond.

FD-SL-03 Mîm and his death is the first hard part we have to overcome: Mîm is now bound up with the House of Hador. He had given away Túrin to the Orcs. In none of JRR Tolkiens tellings of Mîms death was this the case. In TT it is Húrin who kills Mîm after he had uttered bitter words and cruses over the Outlaws bearing away the gold. In the Q30 Mîm is slain by the Outlaws and Húrin would have stopped them. In Any other source no specific information is given. In Sil77 Húrin must kill Mîm since he is alone and does it by reason of Mîms treason to Túrin. But the scene in Sil77 seems not so well developed to me. Húrin is able of such violence as the killing of Mîm would be but in Brethil he showed it more in the fashion of outbursts of fury, and Mîm who was not willing to depart from a sack of roots (even if they were of gold as is suggested) would not give away the treasure of Nagothrond so easily. If Húrin did know of the treason of Mîm is not so clear to me. What would have reported would be the dead of Khîm and Túrins not fulfilled promise to pay a wergild for Khîm when ever he comes to some riches. Thus for me it would be thinkable that the Outlaws would kill Mîm despise the will of Húrin as in Q30.

FD-SL-04 The cruse of Mîm has clearly to be re-established in our version since Tolkien never discarded it.

FD-SL-05 That the outlaws died in quarrels on the road as in Q30 should not be used if we follow Christopher Tolkiens suggestions in TY that the outlaws are the the way to bring the treasure to Menegroth.

FD-SL-06 We must contrive some way for Húrin and the Outlaws to pass the girdle of Melian. At least they can not reach the doors of Menegroth unforeseen, as it is in the text of TT.

FD-SL-07 The conversation between Húrin and Thingol might need change but the outcome is clear: Húrin left Menegroth after he had cast the hoard at Thingols feed and blamed him for the death of Nienor and Morwen. That he was healed by Melain must go, since we have no trace of it in JRR Tolkiens text and it fit the tragedy of the Narn even better if he goes with out healing. In all full told versions he goes forth from Menegroth alone and I think now we should stick to that. His further fate is unknown safe the rumour that he had cast himself in the western sea.

The behaviour of the Outlaws was already discussed at length. But it is still the most clumsy part of the tale. Things that must be answered or left ambiguous in our Version:
FD-SL-08 - Was there a fight between them and the Elves? Probably not since that seemed the reason for the change in Q30 in which the Outlaws were removed completely.
FD-SL-09 - Did They take a part of the treasure out of Menegroth? The Asgon Party would probably not take any part of the treasure, but we are not so sure of Ragnir and the later two sub-groups discussed above. It might be best to be ambiguous in this point, but in a way that must allow some part of the treasure to be taken.
FD-SL-10 - What was their final fate or how could they overcome the cruse of Mîm? Meadhros argument that the cruse could not be laid aside by a more or less forced separating from the gold is valid. I think we must add some info on the fate of the outlaws that is ambiguous enough to be not a fan-fic but makes clear that they did (at least not all) overcome the cruse. It might be hard to work this out, but it seems to me really needed.

FD-SL-11 The next step is Thingols engagement with the Dwarves. Since the later Thingol was already rich the question must be answered why he lured for the hoard. Was he so easily overcome by Mîm’s cruse? In TN he was reluctant at first and was dragged to it by Ufedhin. I think that we need some one in Ufedhins role her to urge Thingol not to follow Melains counsel. And if we use such a role here, we might take that role also to suggest the engagement of the Dwarves.

FD-SL-12 The transporting of half the hoard to Nogord as in TN is out of question, thus the Dwarves most come to Menegroth and smith the gold there. But TN has one great advantage that was never gainsaid later but also never clearly used: the contract between Thingol and the Dwarves is never really set. Both sides do not ask the exact conditions they work under. Thus the trouble that awakes is here already sown.

FD-SL-13 In TN after they had fashioned many nice things the Dwarves asked Thingol to make the Nauglafring. In S and the Q30 it sounds more like Thingol asking them to make the Nauglamir but the text is very compressed and such detail might be lost by compression. Seeing in The Hobbit what a self-illuminated jewel does with the heart of a Dwarf I would rather go back to the old tale were it seemed already part of the plan of the Dwarves to get the Silmaril by bringing it together with the gold of doubtful ownership. At least I would like to have the request for the Nauglamir put after Dwarves showed their talent at the gold.

As we are given not much evidence at all what happened after the work of the Dwarves was finished, we can only conclude that:
FD-SL-14 - The Dwarves already plant treasury.
FD-SL-15 - Thingol scanted his promised reward.
FD-SL-16 - The Dwarves were driven away.
FD-SL-17 Further we have to decide if there was a battle between the dwarves and the elves. Q30 has such a battle. But we have to take into account the blame of the Dwarves against the Elves in The Hobbit:“… In ancient days they [the Woodelves] had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bar- gained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay. …”I think we must skip the battle or at least no Dwarf should be slain therein, since otherwise the Dwarves would blame the Elves to have killed their kin without justice. But can we think of a battle were Elves were slain and the Dwarves only driven away? Properly yes, but why should the grave of the slain Elves be call “the Mound of Avarice”?
In my view the battle has to go. There was “Thingols quarrel with the Dwarves” and the Dwarves were driven away without a fitting payment.

FD-SL-18 The plotting of revenge that the Dwarves of Nogrod made must be without the Dwarves of Belegost following the material in Unfinished Tales and it is the savviest way to skip the Orks TN as well. Thus the only fighting forces were the Dwarves of Nogrod. FD-SL-19 But I think that the message about Mîms death during the taking of the treasure from Nargothrond cold be used. It would add some new wrath to hearts of the Dwarves.

FD-SL-20 Treachery of some Elves should be included in the plot, since it was prominent in the early plot and would add plausibility to the later idea. If we don’t want to add fan-fictional elements the plot could only deal with the writings given. Thus Naugladur must gain knowledge of the traditional hunt by treachery and use this occasion to his advantage.
FD-SL-21 Beyond that we only have: “Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.” We could skip the part “or induced to go to war beyond his borders” when we use the scene with the traditional wolf-hunt but we should not invent further details of how it was contrived.
FD-SL-22 Further details of the killing of Thingol could be added since it is most likely that he and Mablung behaved brave during the fight and were the last to die and that Naugladur did not risk a direct confrontation. But it is thinkable that he meddled with the dead body of Thingol (at least to fetch the Silmaril). And “the head on a pole” is attested for Dwarves that look for revenge (see the treatment with Azog after the battle of Azanulbizar).

FD-SL-23 In all versions of JRR Tolkien Melian played a part in the story after the death of Thingol. She mostly is seen as escaping the Dwarves and bringing the message of the first ruin of Doriath to Beren and Luthien. And later she seems to play a part in the resurrection of Doriath at least in welcoming Dior to the realm. But I think that this parts have to go. The above given quote is all we have concerning the way the girdle of Melian was passed by the hostile army of the Dwarves. And I think that we have to take it literal. Thingol is “slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs”. What a state of mind could we contrive for her to remove the girdle so that the Elves of Doriath could be killed in heaps and than go to Beren and tell him about it which would clearly led him to revenge the death of Thingol? Or are we really going to tell that she wandered witless and found Lúthien by mere luck? That would be thinkable, but not very likely. It is to long a way from Menegroth to Tol Galen for a witless wandering even for a Maiar to reach Beren in time. We even have to ask if she was smart enough to send a message to Beren and Lúthien.
I think that it would be savviest to let her go at once after Thingols death. The message to Beren and Lúthien could be made anonym or maybe send by some servant who got wind of the events by talking to Melian while she felt the death of Thingol (Nielthi in TN).

FD-SL-24 Berens fight with the Dwarves and the part taken by the Green-Elves and the Ents was Christopher Tolkiens way to deal with Letter no. 247 of 1963 and I think we should retain his plot here but possibly add some details of the fight from TN.
FD-SL-25 It would be difficult to use the Letter more strictly and cut out the Green-Elves completely. In this respect I think we should regard the words “Beren has no army” of the Letter as a planed reconstruction not workable with the text we have. The only thing we could do is make the number of Elves as small as thinkable. We could use the counter-attack of the dwarves told in TN led them into the woods were they were attacked by the Ents instate or in addition of the flight of a company as it is in Sil77. In that way we could (implicit not explicit of course) reduce the Green-Elves to a very small band just great enough to make the Dwarves furious enough to rush into a fight against them.

FD-SL-26 The fight of Beren and Naugladur is well told in TN and as jet I can’t see any reason not to use it.

FD-SL-27 It remains one critical point: How did the gold come into the River Ascar? In TN the Ascar was the name of the later Gelion and then in some later accounts the ford was changed to led over the River Ascar and Gelion after there amalgamation (see the eastward extension of the first Silmarllion map). But in the second Silmarllion Map the Dwarf-road led north of the River Ascar into mountains and Sarn athrad is again the ford over Gelion. Thus we can not use the picture of TN were the treasure was cast in the river by the Dwarves when they take to flight or fell in to the river when the dwarves who bore it were killed. The Elves must have removed it actively to the river Ascar und flung it into that river. We have to introduce that to our text.

FD-SL-28 The description of Lúthien wearing the Nauglamir is similar in many accounts. We can choose here the latest and add maybe some details of wording if we like.

FD-SL-29 Dior is in TY seen as leaving Tol Galen soon after the Battle of Sarn Athrad. And the description of his family would also come in here at best.

FD-SL-30 The message of second death of Beren and Lúthien as recorded in Sil77 is based on TY as it seems. And we should take that account even if it is constructed by Christopher Tolkien.

FD-SL-31 That Dior wore the Silmaril in public and that the jewel help him in restoring Doritah should be in-cooperated from TY.

FD-SL-32 Also we should mention that Maedhros restrains his brethren in the fist council. In TN the messenger sent to Dior was Curufin himself. There are some reason against that but I don’t think they are overwhelming and I would re-establish the conversation between Curufin and Dior from TN in our version.

That it was Celegrom who inflamed the brethren in the second council should also be in cooperated. The Details of the fight in Midwinter should be told:
FD-SL-33 The Feanorians won a battle against Dior at the east marches but Celegrom was slain there by Dior how was killed also. Curufin and Caranthir are also slain.
FD-SL-34 Then the Feanorians sacked Menegroth but did not find the Silmarill since Elwing had fled away with it, while the sons Dior were captured and left to strave in the woods.
FD-SL-35 The Feanorians were attacked by a late coming company of the Sindar and Feanorians were in the end “masters of field of dead”.

FD-SL-36 Last of all we have to recount the further flight of Elwing. In TY her mother is with her and they first go to Ossiriand and later when they hear of fugitives of Gondolin they join them at the Mouth of Sirion.

So fare what I think should be our storyline. I hope it will help to create a version of tale that we all can go with.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

FD-SL-06 We must contrive some way for Húrin and the Outlaws to pass the girdle of Melian. At least they can not reach the doors of Menegroth unforeseen, as it is in the text of TT.
Ever since our last discussion of the Ruin of Doriath, I have thinked about this and I think that there is a simple way to do this. We can move the scene that Húrin and the Outlaws reached the doors of Menegroth and change it so that they reached some outside part of the Girdle of Melian and that they are transported into Menegroth. That change would involved minimal editorial alterations by our part.

FD-SL-08 - Was there a fight between them and the Elves? Probably not since that seemed the reason for the change in Q30 in which the Outlaws were removed completely.
FD-SL-09 - Did They take a part of the treasure out of Menegroth? The Asgon Party would probably not take any part of the treasure, but we are not so sure of Ragnir and the later two sub-groups discussed above. It might be best to be ambiguous in this point, but in a way that must allow some part of the treasure to be taken.
FD-SL-10 - What was their final fate or how could they overcome the cruse of Mîm? Meadhros argument that the cruse could not be laid aside by a more or less forced separating from the gold is valid. I think we must add some info on the fate of the outlaws that is ambiguous enough to be not a fan-fic but makes clear that they did (at least not all) overcome the cruse. It might be hard to work this out, but it seems to me really needed.
I still think that as Aiwendil suggest way back and CT did is that it would be best for us not remove that battle.
As for the treasure, I would make them take some bits of it as Thingol offered in the Tale.
I tried to make ambiguous the fate of the outlaws in my latest draft.
.} [Now though] {D}[d]oughty were those outlaws and great wielders of sword and axe from their warfare with Orcs [, they departed from Doriath, fearing the strength of Menegroth. About the fate of the outlaws, no tales tells, yet it is said by some that the curse came upon them, and they died or were slained in quarrels upon the road].

FD-SL-11 The next step is Thingols engagement with the Dwarves. Since the later Thingol was already rich the question must be answered why he lured for the hoard. Was he so easily overcome by Mîm’s cruse? In TN he was reluctant at first and was dragged to it by Ufedhin. I think that we need some one in Ufedhins role her to urge Thingol not to follow Melains counsel. And if we use such a role here, we might take that role also to suggest the engagement of the Dwarves.
I entirely disagree with this. We have already a precedent in the Of Beren and Lúthien story that Thingol is able by himself to disregard the counsel of his wife Melian, and besides using a character such as Ufedhin who would be a true traitor, even bigger than what Maeglin was in the Fall of Gondolin and to have no real background of him besides even JRRT wrote this:
Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.
It would have been very simple for JRRT to simply return to the old story of using a traitor in there but he didn't, and I think that we cannot either.

FD-SL-12 The transporting of half the hoard to Nogord as in TN is out of question, thus the Dwarves most come to Menegroth and smith the gold there. But TN has one great advantage that was never gainsaid later but also never clearly used: the contract between Thingol and the Dwarves is never really set. Both sides do not ask the exact conditions they work under. Thus the trouble that awakes is here already sown.
I think that we are forgetting one very important point in here. The gold that we are talking about here as in the Tale of the Nauglafring was the gold of the simple Rodothlim that were in no way comparable as to the later Ñoldor of Nargothrond. Remember that in the Tale the gold was not worked but it would seem to me unthinkable that the horde of Nargothrond under Finrod Felagund would be in such state. I'm not really sure how much worked that gold would need. To me it would be very beautiful pieces of gold.
Such a great worked gold would definitely would make Thingol think twice before throwing it away.
Perhaps this could work into our advantage in that the dwarves were only summoned to make the Nauglamír and some other little smitting of the gold. And the quarrel of the dwarves and Thingol is to be because of differences in the amount of gold that Thingol is to paid them and we would cut the other types of payment that the dwarves wanted from the Tale.

I will comment on the rest of it later.

[Maédhros]

As we are given not much evidence at all what happened after the work of the Dwarves was finished, we can only conclude that:
FD-SL-14 - The Dwarves already plant treasury.
What is plant treasury?
FD-SL-15 - Thingol scanted his promised reward.
FD-SL-16 - The Dwarves were driven away.
FD-SL-17 Further we have to decide if there was a battle between the dwarves and the elves. Q30 has such a battle. But we have to take into account the blame of the Dwarves against the Elves in The Hobbit:
Quote:
“… In ancient days they [the Woodelves] had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bar- gained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay. …”

I think we must skip the battle or at least no Dwarf should be slain therein, since otherwise the Dwarves would blame the Elves to have killed their kin without justice. But can we think of a battle were Elves were slain and the Dwarves only driven away? Properly yes, but why should the grave of the slain Elves be call “the Mound of Avarice”?
In my view the battle has to go. There was “Thingols quarrel with the Dwarves” and the Dwarves were driven away without a fitting payment.
I see no reason as to not have a battle between the dwarves and the Elves of Doriath. It can be seen that there was a quarrel between the Elves and dwarves that ended up in a battle between them. It seems perfectly logical thinking about the curse of the gold.

FD-SL-18 The plotting of revenge that the Dwarves of Nogrod made must be without the Dwarves of Belegost following the material in Unfinished Tales and it is the savviest way to skip the Orks TN as well. Thus the only fighting forces were the Dwarves of Nogrod. FD-SL-19 But I think that the message about Mîms death during the taking of the treasure from Nargothrond cold be used. It would add some new wrath to hearts of the Dwarves.

Agree on this.

FD-SL-20 Treachery of some Elves should be included in the plot, since it was prominent in the early plot and would add plausibility to the later idea. If we don’t want to add fan-fictional elements the plot could only deal with the writings given. Thus Naugladur must gain knowledge of the traditional hunt by treachery and use this occasion to his advantage.
I don't think that treachery of the elves should be used, instead I would use the idea of Naugladur would know about the hunt. I mean the dwarves had already worked in Menegroth before and it is very plausible that they would know about certain customs in Menegroth, as the hunt.

FD-SL-21 Beyond that we only have: “Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.” We could skip the part “or induced to go to war beyond his borders” when we use the scene with the traditional wolf-hunt but we should not invent further details of how it was contrived.
FD-SL-22 Further details of the killing of Thingol could be added since it is most likely that he and Mablung behaved brave during the fight and were the last to die and that Naugladur did not risk a direct confrontation. But it is thinkable that he meddled with the dead body of Thingol (at least to fetch the Silmaril). And “the head on a pole” is attested for Dwarves that look for revenge (see the treatment with Azog after the battle of Azanulbizar).
Using the hunt is the way that Thingol is killed outside his borders. I agree on the further details part.

FD-SL-23 In all versions of JRR Tolkien Melian played a part in the story after the death of Thingol. She mostly is seen as escaping the Dwarves and bringing the message of the first ruin of Doriath to Beren and Luthien. And later she seems to play a part in the resurrection of Doriath at least in welcoming Dior to the realm. But I think that this parts have to go. The above given quote is all we have concerning the way the girdle of Melian was passed by the hostile army of the Dwarves. And I think that we have to take it literal. Thingol is “slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs”. What a state of mind could we contrive for her to remove the girdle so that the Elves of Doriath could be killed in heaps and than go to Beren and tell him about it which would clearly led him to revenge the death of Thingol? Or are we really going to tell that she wandered witless and found Lúthien by mere luck? That would be thinkable, but not very likely. It is to long a way from Menegroth to Tol Galen for a witless wandering even for a Maiar to reach Beren in time. We even have to ask if she was smart enough to send a message to Beren and Lúthien.
I think that it would be savviest to let her go at once after Thingols death. The message to Beren and Lúthien could be made anonym or maybe send by some servant who got wind of the events by talking to Melian while she felt the death of Thingol (Nielthi in TN).
Again, I completely disagree.
Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.
When Thingol is killed we can follow the TN where Melian feels that her husband is dead, her power of the Girdle is gone, she fleds to find her daughter. JRRT quote doesn't necessarily mean that Melian willingly removed the girdle but as CT imply in his version, that her power over it was gone, and that is why she fled. As to call her witless after such an event is to me unthinkable. Why wouldn't a maiar like her, who had not the restrictions that the later Istari had, would not be able to find her own daughter? I don't see any pressing evidence as to why Melian should not be the messenger.

FD-SL-24 Berens fight with the Dwarves and the part taken by the Green-Elves and the Ents was Christopher Tolkiens way to deal with Letter no. 247 of 1963 and I think we should retain his plot here but possibly add some details of the fight from TN.
I think that this works very good. I would not dismiss the green elves either.

FD-SL-26 The fight of Beren and Naugladur is well told in TN and as jet I can’t see any reason not to use it.
I think that it should be used.

FD-SL-27 It remains one critical point: How did the gold come into the River Ascar? In TN the Ascar was the name of the later Gelion and then in some later accounts the ford was changed to led over the River Ascar and Gelion after there amalgamation (see the eastward extension of the first Silmarllion map). But in the second Silmarllion Map the Dwarf-road led north of the River Ascar into mountains and Sarn athrad is again the ford over Gelion. Thus we can not use the picture of TN were the treasure was cast in the river by the Dwarves when they take to flight or fell in to the river when the dwarves who bore it were killed. The Elves must have removed it actively to the river Ascar und flung it into that river. We have to introduce that to our text.

I had not thought of that. Good point.

FD-SL-28 The description of Lúthien wearing the Nauglamir is similar in many accounts. We can choose here the latest and add maybe some details of wording if we like.

FD-SL-29 Dior is in TY seen as leaving Tol Galen soon after the Battle of Sarn Athrad. And the description of his family would also come in here at best.

FD-SL-30 The message of second death of Beren and Lúthien as recorded in Sil77 is based on TY as it seems. And we should take that account even if it is constructed by Christopher Tolkien.

FD-SL-31 That Dior wore the Silmaril in public and that the jewel help him in restoring Doritah should be in-cooperated from TY.

FD-SL-32 Also we should mention that Maedhros restrains his brethren in the fist council. In TN the messenger sent to Dior was Curufin himself. There are some reason against that but I don’t think they are overwhelming and I would re-establish the conversation between Curufin and Dior from TN in our version.
I'm ok with this.

That it was Celegrom who inflamed the brethren in the second council should also be in cooperated. The Details of the fight in Midwinter should be told:
FD-SL-33 The Feanorians won a battle against Dior at the east marches but Celegrom was slain there by Dior how was killed also. Curufin and Caranthir are also slain.
FD-SL-34 Then the Feanorians sacked Menegroth but did not find the Silmarill since Elwing had fled away with it, while the sons Dior were captured and left to strave in the woods.
FD-SL-35 The Feanorians were attacked by a late coming company of the Sindar and Feanorians were in the end “masters of field of dead”.

FD-SL-36 Last of all we have to recount the further flight of Elwing. In TY her mother is with her and they first go to Ossiriand and later when they hear of fugitives of Gondolin they join them at the Mouth of Sirion.

I'm ok with this too.

[Findegil]

FD-SL-06: Posted by Maedhros:Ever since our last discussion of the Ruin of Doriath, I have thinked about this and I think that there is a simple way to do this. We can move the scene that Húrin and the Outlaws reached the doors of Menegroth and change it so that they reached some outside part of the Girdle of Melian and that they are transported into Menegroth. That change would involved minimal editorial alterations by our part.That was what I tried with the secret bridge over Sirion. But it is clearly not quite sufficient since the Gridle protected Nivrim. I am sure that we can find some solution.

FD-SL-08: Posted by Maedhros:I still think that as Aiwendil suggest way back and CT did is that it would be best for us not remove that battle. I think the "not" is just a typo. Aiwendil and Christopher Tolkien did suggest to remove the fight. And I strongly agree with that, as you seems to do.

FD-SL-09 & FD-SL-10: I am still not quiet happy with the scene of the departure and the suggestion of some fate for the outlaws. It might be that we need the help such a master of ambiguous writing as Aiwendil to do that in a fashion that satisfies us all.

FD-SL-11: So were are again in a dead lock. Since I can not see Thingol simply dismiss his first impulse to get ride of the treasure just by looking on it again. Further I think that you overestimated the role I would use Ufedhin here. I would have taken him as an Elf that had fallen under the cruse of Mîm and did lure Thingol not to through the gold away, nothing more. When I think about the behaviour of Saeros during the feast he is an good example for an Elf-Lord that would fit the role of Ufedhin I have proposed above.
The later treason of Narthseg (which I only meant to bring Naugladur some info of the hunt so that he could time his machinations to lure Thingol out of the Gridle) is a completely independent issue. It could of course be connected by using one and the same person in both roles, but that would really be to much liberty in creating a new character.

FD-SL-12: Posted by Maedhros:I think that we are forgetting one very important point in here. The gold that we are talking about here as in the Tale of the Nauglafring was the gold of the simple Rodothlim that were in no way comparable as to the later Ñoldor of Nargothrond. Remember that in the Tale the gold was not worked but it would seem to me unthinkable that the horde of Nargothrond under Finrod Felagund would be in such state. I'm not really sure how much worked that gold would need. To me it would be very beautiful pieces of gold.That is a valid argument. But even if the people of Nargothrond were the most cunning Noldor-smith of all there would have been the possibility of a big hoard of un-fashioned gold in the halls of Nargothrond. But I must say that in this direction I had overdone it in my version of FoD by taking the descriptions of both results the smithies of the Dwarves together. Maybe we should use the first one to describe the treasure when it is brought forth by Húrin and the Outlaws.
I am not convinced that the Dwarves were only engaged to fashion the Nauglamir.
The other payments demanded by the Dwarves are clearly debatable. But we need something to lunch a quarrel and these demanded payments seemed perfect for that.

FD-SL-14 - The Dwarves already plant treasury.
Oh, sorry a bad misprint of mine. It should read: The Dwarves already planed treachery. Meaning that they lusted for the treasure and sought for a way to get hold on it.

Posted by Maedhros:I see no reason as to not have a battle between the dwarves and the Elves of Doriath. It can be seen that there was a quarrel between the Elves and dwarves that ended up in a battle between them. It seems perfectly logical thinking about the curse of the gold. Consider the result of a battle: Dwarves would have been killed. Okay, now the Dwarves that were driven away would reach Nogrod. What ever they tell there they would have to give some account why some of them were slain. From The Hobbit we learn that the Dwarves started the war only for the withheld reward. Thus the Dwarves that returned must have given a tale in which the dead Dwarves were killed justly or the fight would have been re-lunched for revenge and not only for the reward.
Alternative we could consider the statement in The Hobbit to refer to the first fight in Menegroth between the Dwarven-smiths and the Elves. But that would mean that the Dwarven-smith must capture some part of the treasure for which we have no hint at all in JRR Tolkiens texts.

FD-SL-20: Posted by Maedhros:I don't think that treachery of the elves should be used, instead I would use the idea of Naugladur would know about the hunt. I mean the dwarves had already worked in Menegroth before and it is very plausible that they would know about certain customs in Menegroth, as the hunt. The plot is workable without the treason of some Elves. But why not use it? The yearly hunt of Thingol (which could have been know about by Naugladur) could have been everywhere in Doriath. An Elf new come from Menegroth would had have the necessary information for Naugladur were to look for Thingol to lure him out of the Girdle.
And up to this point you have been the one that argued with the potency of the cruse of Mîm. Isn't a treacherous Elf a plausibly result of that cruse?

FD-SL21: Posted by Maedhros:Using the hunt is the way that Thingol is killed outside his borders. Not really, the hunt would normally be lunched inside the Girdle or at least so I would think. Otherwise there would not be any need to lure Thingol to come out of protection. Which JRR Tolkien clearly saw.

FD-SL-23: Posted by Maedhros:When Thingol is killed we can follow the TN where Melian feels that her husband is dead, her power of the Girdle is gone, she fleds to find her daughter. But in TN the girdle is already out of function by the treason of Narthseg. And Melain did not fled to find Lúthien:Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for as they came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other, and Gwendelin went forth from the places of her abode, and her bitter weeping filled the forest. Now did a great darkness fall upon her mind and her counsel and lore forsook her, at she wandered she knew not whither for a great while; and this was by reason of her love for Tinwelint the king, for whom she had chosen never to fare back to Valinor and the beauty of the Gods, dwelling always in the wild forests of the North; and now did there seem to her neither beauty nor joy be it in Valinor or in the Lands Without. Many of the scattered Elves in her wayward journeyings she met, and they took pity on her, but she heeded them not. Tales had they told her, but she hearkened not over much since Tinwelint was dead; ...It is in S and in Q30 that Melain goes from Menegroth to seek Lúthien. And in both versions it is again treachery of the Elves that had removed the girdle. But this was not to the liking of JRR Tolkien as he later stated in TY.
Posted by Maedhros:JRRT quote doesn't necessarily mean that Melian willingly removed the girdle but as CT imply in his version, that her power over it was gone, and that is why she fled. I do not interpret the Sil77 version in that way. I think that you changed cause and effect here. Melian is trouble by the death of Thingol and forsook Middle-Earth. She did not remove the Girdle with some purpose but she did not longer care for it. She did not fled because she was no longer able to protect Doriath. She went way because here former life had fallen in ruin and was stripped from its sense for here by the death of Thingol. And last but not least, why should here power over the matter of Arda be gone with the death of Thingol? Do you see Melian acting with Thingol in a way like Sauron with the Ring? Possible but such a interpretation should not be forced on the reader of our version of the story.
Posted by Maedhros:As to call her witless after such an event is to me unthinkable. Not so for JRR Tolkien as seen in TN. But in my view you drive it even further by denying here power after the death of Thingol.
Posted by Maedhros:Why wouldn't a maiar like her, who had not the restrictions that the later Istari had, would not be able to find her own daughter? I agree on that point, in principle she would have been able to find Lúthien, but see next § of the post. And for Melian not being restricted like the Istari I would say she might even have been more ristricted by her former actions: permanent incarnation, living in the fashion of the Sindar for a very long time, childbirth, gaining power over the matter of Arda (creating the girdle). But that is clearly a argument for nothing since we do not know enough to make a valid comparison.
Posted by Maedhros:I don't see any pressing evidence as to why Melian should not be the messenger. To put it simple: The problem is the Girdle. Remove Melian and the problem is solved. Do not remove her, and you have to argue the Girdle away in some very risky fashion.

FD-SL-24: Yes it works well, and we have already done some step in removing the innumerable host of Green-Elves that jumped from behind each tree when Beren sounded his horn. When we workout the passage I will give the purposed further reduction a try and we can see how it works.

At least I have the feeling that we know begin to discuss the core of the problems we have each with version of the other and not only the textual details. Even if I in the moment don't see us move nearer to any agreement.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Just wanted to let both of you know that I've been following this discussion. I had been thinking that I would avoid commenting at all until Earendil was finished, but as things here look to be going ahead with or without me, I will see if I can make some kind of response later today. If not, then, alas, I'll be away for a few days with no internet.

I think I can say in general that I'm wary of a lot of the proposals so far and I may end up advocating a lot less use of LT, unfortunately.

[Aiwendil]

FD-SL-03: I'd say it's possible, and even likely, that Hurin's slaying of Mim would have been restored if "Wanderings" had continued. But I do not think we have the authority to return to that story in violation of Q30. I guess I would go with the story in Q30 for Mim's death.

FD-SL-05: We have at least some indication that Tolkien might have intended to keep the outlaws alive up to Menegroth, since he says in relation to "Wanderings" that they are the "nucleus of the force" with which Hurin brings ruin to Doriath. The other piece of "evidence" here is simply Christopher's observation that Hurin's gesture is ruined by his being forced to get Thingol to send for the very treasure which is to be so dramaticly cast at his feet.

Still, some part of me says that since Q30 is the last full account of the Ruin of Doriath and we don't have any clear renunciation of that story, we ought at least to consider following the story there, however inadequate it may seem. It would at least obviate the problem of the fate of the outlaws.

FD-SL-06: The only logical way that Hurin can have gotten into Doriath is if he was led through the Girdle; so in an abstract sense I agree with Maedhros. I am not sure, however, that either lifting text from elsewhere in TT or inventing a secret bridge over Sirion to match that over Esgalduin is the way to achieve it. We could perhaps be ambiguous here.

FD-SL-08: This is one of the two really tricky parts in my view. I fear we can only go so far with ambiguous sentences. I am not at all satisfied with any of the possibilities:

1. The outlaws are killed on the way to Doriath, as in Q30. The trouble with this is of course that it ruins Hurin's gesture. We have what might be interpreted as an indication from JRRT that it was rejected; we also have the strong condemnation of the story by Christopher.

2. The outlaws battle with the Elves in Menegroth. This was the story in TT, but was rejected; there is no reason to think that it would ever have been re-introduced. It seems out of place in the later Silmarillion; also it seems likely that the inadequate story found in Q30 was devised to avoid this.

3. The outlaws leave peacefully. This is not found in any text; also there may be a problem with them escaping the curse of Mim.

FD-SL-11: I definitely don't think that we can re-introduce Ufedhin; nor can we invent a new character in his place. I don't see any reason to doubt the Q30 story here - nor in fact any reason that we need to elaborate on what is said there.

FD-SL-12 and FD-SL-13: Again, Q30 ought to be taken as authoritative. What we have there is ambiguous. I wonder about the necessity of re-introducing Lost Tales material merely for the sake of detail, when that material is so highly dubious. Again, I think that this is a place where we may have to just use Q30 as it is.

FD-SL-17: I don't know whether to consider The Hobbit in contradiction with Q30 or not. Christopher certainly didn't seem to think it was, at any rate. The statement in The Hobbit is quite general and clearly not intended to say anything about the precise sequence of events. I guess in the end I don't really see the contradiction - the Dwarves can go to war after the slaying of their kin and still be going to "retrieve their treasure".

FD-SL-19: Would the news of Mim's death really have point for the Dwarves of Nogrod, considering the later conception of the Petty Dwarves?

FD-SL-20: I don't think we can use the treachery of the Elves. It's simply out of place in the later Silmarillion. Putting it back in may be possible, but there's insufficient justification for it; it would be little better than fan fiction.

FD-SL-21: Tolkien could have revived the hunt story but did not. I don't see why we can't simply follow Tolkien's idea - that he was "induced to go to war beyond his borders". It becomes a problem only if we insist on investing every portion of the story with the level of detail found in the Lost Tales. Why not use the bald statement that "Thingol was induced to go to war beyond his borders"? Or, if we permit a stylistic revision, "Hearing of the anger of the Dwarves, Thingol went forth to war beyond the borders of Doriath."

FD-SL-22: I wonder about using Mablung here. In the 77 he defends the Silmaril to the last, but as I recall I could find no precedent whatsoever for this in any of JRRT's writings.

FD-SL-23: I think we can follow the note, much as Findegil suggests, in having Melian depart immediately. But I don't see a definite need to delete the Q30 story that she brought the message to Beren and Luthien before she departed for Valinor. Though I do understand the awkwardness of that solution. If that's deemed unworkable, I would go with Findegil's suggestion that she immediately goes to Valinor and that the message is brought to Beren and Luthien by some anonymous messenger.

FD-SL-27: This is indeed problematic. I'll think about it.

[Maédhros]

That was what I tried with the secret bridge over Sirion. But it is clearly not quite sufficient since the Gridle protected Nivrim. I am sure that we can find some solution.
FD-SL-06: The only logical way that Hurin can have gotten into Doriath is if he was led through the Girdle; so in an abstract sense I agree with Maedhros. I am not sure, however, that either lifting text from elsewhere in TT or inventing a secret bridge over Sirion to match that over Esgalduin is the way to achieve it. We could perhaps be ambiguous here.
I think that we are all on the same page in here.

FD-SL-08: This is one of the two really tricky parts in my view. I fear we can only go so far with ambiguous sentences. I am not at all satisfied with any of the possibilities:

1. The outlaws are killed on the way to Doriath, as in Q30. The trouble with this is of course that it ruins Hurin's gesture. We have what might be interpreted as an indication from JRRT that it was rejected; we also have the strong condemnation of the story by Christopher.

2. The outlaws battle with the Elves in Menegroth. This was the story in TT, but was rejected; there is no reason to think that it would ever have been re-introduced. It seems out of place in the later Silmarillion; also it seems likely that the inadequate story found in Q30 was devised to avoid this.

3. The outlaws leave peacefully. This is not found in any text; also there may be a problem with them escaping the curse of Mim.
If I'm not mistaken, Findegil and me agree on the fact that the outlaws are the ones who take the treasure of Nargothrond to Menegroth and that there is no battle there. Our difference seems to be in what happens to the outlaws after they leave. Do they live with some of the treasure or not? My opinion is that they do take some of it and that it is said that most of them died in quarrels on the road as to not escape the curse of Mîm.

FD-SL-11: I definitely don't think that we can re-introduce Ufedhin; nor can we invent a new character in his place. I don't see any reason to doubt the Q30 story here - nor in fact any reason that we need to elaborate on what is said there.
This is one of the two points in which I disagree with Findegil. I have argued against using either Ufedhin nor a betrayal of the Elves.

FD-SL-12 and FD-SL-13: Again, Q30 ought to be taken as authoritative. What we have there is ambiguous. I wonder about the necessity of re-introducing Lost Tales material merely for the sake of detail, when that material is so highly dubious. Again, I think that this is a place where we may have to just use Q30 as it is.
I would definitely in the whole Ruin of Doriath would introduce as most Lost Tales material as possible within our rules, considering that the Q30 account is very general.

FD-SL-17: I don't know whether to consider The Hobbit in contradiction with Q30 or not. Christopher certainly didn't seem to think it was, at any rate. The statement in The Hobbit is quite general and clearly not intended to say anything about the precise sequence of events. I guess in the end I don't really see the contradiction - the Dwarves can go to war after the slaying of their kin and still be going to "retrieve their treasure".
I agree with Aiwendil in here, and having the fight between the dwarves and elves would makes us follow the Q30 account as it was written.

FD-SL-20: I don't think we can use the treachery of the Elves. It's simply out of place in the later Silmarillion. Putting it back in may be possible, but there's insufficient justification for it; it would be little better than fan fiction.
I agree with this.

FD-SL-21: Tolkien could have revived the hunt story but did not. I don't see why we can't simply follow Tolkien's idea - that he was "induced to go to war beyond his borders". It becomes a problem only if we insist on investing every portion of the story with the level of detail found in the Lost Tales. Why not use the bald statement that "Thingol was induced to go to war beyond his borders"? Or, if we permit a stylistic revision, "Hearing of the anger of the Dwarves, Thingol went forth to war beyond the borders of Doriath."
I would personally want to follow the idea of the old hunt story but now I think that I can follow that because of the slaying of the Elves in Menegroth, Thingol was induced to go to war beyond the borders of Doriath.

FD-SL-22: I wonder about using Mablung here. In the 77 he defends the Silmaril to the last, but as I recall I could find no precedent whatsoever for this in any of JRRT's writings.
I would use Mablung here with no trouble. He is mentioned in the Tale of the Nauglafring as dying with Thingol.

FD-SL-23: I think we can follow the note, much as Findegil suggests, in having Melian depart immediately. But I don't see a definite need to delete the Q30 story that she brought the message to Beren and Luthien before she departed for Valinor. Though I do understand the awkwardness of that solution. If that's deemed unworkable, I would go with Findegil's suggestion that she immediately goes to Valinor and that the message is brought to Beren and Luthien by some anonymous messenger.
To put it simple: The problem is the Girdle. Remove Melian and the problem is solved. Do not remove her, and you have to argue the Girdle away in some very risky fashion.
Findegil is correct in this. But there is another factor to consider. Melian is a wise and great queen. I just can't see her that if she had the ability to keep the Girdle in place after Thingol's death, she would choose not to do it and leave and Valinor at once. I know that she would be in shock at the death of Thingol but not as to leave all of Menegroth vulnerable to such a devastating attack. I would rather follow CT as he did in the QS77 riskier as it might be.

[Findegil]

First of all: Aiwendil it is nice to have your attention in this discussion.
Posted by Aiwendil: I had been thinking that I would avoid commenting at all until Earendil was finished, but as things here look to be going ahead with or without me, I will see if I can make some kind of response later today.My appologies if I by posting my storyline posts,I robbed you of the last free minutes of the day. I consider my self for nearly 2 weeks in which I had the posts nearly ready on my PC to hold back until Eärendil was settled. But in the end thought the situation would have been even worth if it would have gone further with me commenting in privat to Meadhros more and more elaborated drafts of FoD. Seeing that Maedhros had worked out in "secret" 2 further drafts of the story, I strongly felt the need of an open discussion.

Your generall remark that you would rather would like to go with Q30 than add things without need from TT and TN I can accept concerning the storyline and I would in some points even go further than you have done in this, as will be seen below. But as ever when the storyline is once settled I would go and fetch details of the text from LT to elaborat our text as far as possible. But still that is not the goal of the discussion in this thread.

Now to the points you commented on:
FD-SL-03: I am okay here with the story of Q30. But I would have a hard time to use the text of Q30 without any addition.

FD-SL-05: I think the evidence we have against Q30 in having the outlaws killed in quarrels on the road is hard enough. Of course we could argue that the change is not workable since the fate of the outlaws could not be solved by us, but that seemed a to conservativ fiew to me.

FD-SL-06: The secret bridge was not an invention of mine! UT; Part one: The First Age; chapter II: Narn I Hîn Húrin; sub-chapter: The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond:... Hope then returned to Mablung; and they went on now together steering northward and eastward, for there was no road back into Doriath in the south, and since the fall of Nargothrond the ferry-wards were forbidden to set any across save those that came from within.
...
And now at length after many days they came nigh to the west border of Doriath, somewaht south of Teiglin; for they intended to pass the fences of the little land of Thingol beyond Sirion and so come to the guarded bridge near the inflowing of Esgalduin. ...The bridge would be the natural choice to come into Doriath from the west. The only other way would be to go back north, cross the Brithiach
and enter Doriath from Dimbar. The weckness of my idea is that not only the bridge is guarded but there are also "the fences of the littel land of Thingol beyond Sirion", Nivrim as it is called on the map.

FD-SL-08: For 3 is the option to go. We will have a hard time to produce the text for that, but it is the most promissing way at least. If we in the end find out that it is really un-workable than and only than 1. must be the chioce in my view.

FD-SL-11: Posted by Aiwendil:I don't see any reason to doubt the Q30 story here - nor in fact any reason that we need to elaborate on what is said there. In my view I did not contradict anythink that was siad in Q30. But I am reading you right here, that you would even drop Melains warning about the hoard?

FD-SL-12 FD-SL-13: Posted by Aiwendil:Again, Q30 ought to be taken as authoritative. What we have there is ambiguous. I wonder about the necessity of re-introducing Lost Tales material merely for the sake of detail, when that material is so highly dubious. Again, I think that this is a place where we may have to just use Q30 as it is. Talking about storyline I am willing to accept that, but when it come to the actual text I can not imaging how we can go with a Q30-like version of Fod between a full told Narn plus WH and a full told FoG.

FD-SL-17: Okay, it might be that I have ofer interpreted here the lines in The Hobbit. If you both like to have the battle between the Dwarven-simth and the Elves we will use it.

FD-SL-19: About the death of Mîm: I think it would have some point for the Dwarves of Nogrod. Considering that the killing of the Pety-Dwarves by the Sindar was a grive just laid to sleep between the Sindar and the Dwarves as is told in Quendi and Eldar. Thus we have Thingols people hunt the Petty dwarves down to a few, and the Húrin killed the last and Thingol as the one who gets the advantage of all that. But it is a minor point and I could go without it.

FD-SL-20: Posted by Aiwendil: I don't think we can use the treachery of the Elves. It's simply out of place in the later Silmarillion. Putting it back in may be possible, but there's insufficient justification for it; it would be little better than fan fiction. It is interesting how the view point is changed here. The treachery of the Elves is in full flavor in Q30! How can it be consider fan-fictional to hold it, if as you have argued as jet Q30 is the leading text for our storyline? The note about the passage of the Girdle of Melian does only provide evedence that the treachery was a sufficent tool to surround the problem of the Girdle of Melain, but does not say that there was no treachery involved.

FD-SL-21: Here we have the same situation as before. The hunt is part of the Q30 narrative. Thus it was never droped in the fulltold narrative. It is clear if we will use the second opption given in the note ("Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders") we must skip the hunt. But were is the reason for not using the first oppoin given in the note and stick to the hunt? Beside the fact that we would be more true to Q30 which is Tolkiens latest telling of the story, we would get some additional advantages: As I see the millitary situation in Beleriand the Dwarves of Nogrod would not have been able to fight a war against the army of Doriath with out some trick. And that is also hinted at in TN and Sil77. But if the attack is unfore-seen it can be argued that they would had have a chance to gain the success they clearly had.
Posted by Maedhors: I would personally want to follow the idea of the old hunt story but now I think that I can follow that because of the slaying of the Elves in Menegroth, Thingol was induced to go to war beyond the borders of Doriath.I can't see the point here. Why is it less probable that Thingol goes to a hunt when some Elves are killed in the fight with the dwarve-smith? Doriath had long since been fighting at the borders as we learn from the Narn. Thus a few dead Elves in Menegroth would not stop the festival hunt. Okay, I can see the fight in Menegroth could have given Thingol a reasson to go to war beyond the borders. An dif you meant that it is clearly a point, but none that we could take up in the text.

By the way: Posted by Aiwendil:Or, if we permit a stylistic revision, "Hearing of the anger of the Dwarves, Thingol went forth to war beyond the borders of Doriath." If this is consider a stylistic revision, than I am the conservatist editor among us! :eek:

FD-SL-22: The detail of Mablung warding the Silmaril in Menegroth is an editorial invention of Christopher Tolkien. The question might be if Thingol does waer the Nauglamir when he is traped by the Dwarves. If not and the Nauglamir is hoarded in Menegroth we could consider Mablung as a special guard for it. But I see the scene thus: Thingols has gone to a festival hunt in his best fashion wearing the new wrought Nauglamir. Withhim are all the Lords and noble Elves of Doriath including the cheif of his thanes Mablung but not a grat army. Then he is lured out side the girdle an attacked by an superiority of Dwarves. As is everybodies duty all defend the king with their life until all are foredone with Mablung as his chief thanes dying as the last defender beside the king himself.
If the hunt is used Mablungs place is by the King as he was in the original hunt for Charcharoth.

FD-SL-22: But in Sil77 Melian does not go her self to Ossiriand but bides Mablung to send a message. It is right that Sil77suggests that here power was not removed willingly but I would fell much saver if we could left that point open.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:
My appologies if I by posting my storyline posts,I robbed you of the last free minutes of the day.

Not at all. As it turned out I had plenty of time for these comments.

FD-SL-05: I'm still not altogether convinced that the evidence against the outlaws being killed on the road as in Q30 is all that compelling. But for the moment at least I think I agree with you that they should survive and reach Menegroth.

FD-SL-06: Sorry that I missed that bridge in UT! Still, I don't like inventing the fact that they entered there. I would prefer to be ambiguous rather than to invent details. And Findegil is right about the problem with Nivrim.

FD-SL-11: What I meant was that I don't see any reason to alter or elaborate on the story in Q30 by re-introducing Ufedhin or someone in that role.

FD-SL-12, FD-SL-13: Maedhros wrote:
I would definitely in the whole Ruin of Doriath would introduce as most Lost Tales material as possible within our rules, considering that the Q30 account is very general.

And Findegil:
Talking about storyline I am willing to accept that, but when it come to the actual text I can not imaging how we can go with a Q30-like version of Fod between a full told Narn plus WH and a full told FoG.

This is an old issue, of course. I've said before that, no matter what we do, there will be huge stylistic discrepancies in the later parts of our Silmarillion. There certainly is one between FoG and Earendil. There is also bound to be one between "The Wanderings of Hurin" and the remainder of RoD, even if we were to use as much of TN as possible.

Now I don't object to using the Lost Tales as a source for a more full narrative - we did that in FoG. But now it looks like in many places we have to weigh that full narrative against canonical safety. In places where the TN narrative is quite reliable, and agrees very closely with Q30, we can safely use it. But whenever there is doubt as to how precisely to implement the TN material, we ought to be able to fall back on Q30 itself.

I am wary because a lot of times so far in the discussion the inclusion or exclusion of plot points from TN seems to come down to "I would like to use this story" or "if we use this, we can justify it" rather than "this story is clearly still valid".

FD-SL-20: I expressed myself poorly in my last post. Findegil is right that, being that it appears in Q30, the treachery of the Elves idea is hard to just ignore. But in my reading, this alone is sufficient to account for the Dwarves' access to Doriath; and the famous note "Doriath cannot be invaded by a hostile army . . ." should be taken as contradicting that story and sketching out a new one. Also, the treachery of Elves in Doriath seems somewhat out of place in the later - i.e. post-LotR - Silmarillion.

The very fact that Tolkien considered having him "induced to go to war beyond his borders" might suggest that the hunt was abandoned. I can perhaps see the inclusion of the hunt though. The main point is that I would try to avoid inventing any details concerning how Thingol was lured outside Doriath, preferring a bald statement of that fact.

FD-SL-23: Maedhros wrote:
Findegil is correct in this. But there is another factor to consider. Melian is a wise and great queen. I just can't see her that if she had the ability to keep the Girdle in place after Thingol's death, she would choose not to do it and leave and Valinor at once. I know that she would be in shock at the death of Thingol but not as to leave all of Menegroth vulnerable to such a devastating attack. I would rather follow CT as he did in the QS77 riskier as it might be.

But I don't see how the note can be interpreted other than as saying that Melian's departure allowed the Dwarves to enter. I don't see why Melian's power should disappear after Thingol's death. But I don't think that it's absolutely necessary that we choose between the two alternatives. There's no need for our text to specify whether the Girdle is gone and therefore Melian departs or Melian departs and therefore the Girdle is gone. And in any case, why should she not go and bring the message to Beren and Luthien?

[Findegil]

FD-SL-05: Okay, that means we will try the outlaws im Menegroth and if that does not workout we will go back to Q30.

FD-SL-06: Agreed, the bridge is to risky and does not work due to the Nivrim problem.

FD-SL-11: Okay, even if I don't see that fit the later Thingol we will not introduce any one to urge Thingol not to thrust the hoard away.

FD-SL-12 & FD-SL-13: Posted by Aiwendil:Now I don't object to using the Lost Tales as a source for a more full narrative - we did that in FoG. But now it looks like in many places we have to weigh that full narrative against canonical safety. In places where the TN narrative is quite reliable, and agrees very closely with Q30, we can safely use it. But whenever there is doubt as to how precisely to implement the TN material, we ought to be able to fall back on Q30 itself.
I am wary because a lot of times so far in the discussion the inclusion or exclusion of plot points from TN seems to come down to "I would like to use this story" or "if we use this, we can justify it" rather than "this story is clearly still valid".My reason to go back to a storyline discussion was very similar to that: Working on the text it self one is often carried way by the details and lose the validity out of sight. I see the further work done on this chapter now in quiet a nother way than before: First I saw that we would take a draft from Maedhros or my one and start working form that, but now I would rather take Q30 change what must be change to creat the storyline produce here and then start to add details in accordance to our rules form whatever source. Our preliminary drafts will in the end only help to identify the materials that could be added for the sake of details.

FD-SL-20 Posted by Aiwendil:But in my reading, this alone is sufficient to account for the Dwarves' access to Doriath; That is clearly the case in Q30. But the famous Note does not give any information how Thingol was lured outside the girdle. It does also not deny that treachery played a part in that fight. I do niether say that we should specify the "how" nor do I support that we should go back to the simple plot that the treason of the Elves circumvented the girdle. As I said before, if we take the second opption given by the note that Thingol is lured to go to war outside, than the treason of the elves has no place. But if we hold the hunt and take the first opption given in the note, the Dwarves would need very exact information about the hunt planed for that year, and that was exactly what the elves brought to Naugladur in TN. Thus I think, if we stick to the hunt the treason of some elves is still a valid story.
It all comes down to the question if we will take "Thingol is lured outside {...}" or "Thingol is {...} induced to go to war beyond his borders". The first could incooperate much more of the old plot (like the hunt and the treason of the Elves). The second would be a reduction to that statment without any further detail. And it would in my view at last creat a problem of believability since it sems impossible for me that the Elves of Doriath are defeated in a katastrophic way by the host of Nogord in an planed and open war.
How we can use the note without choosing one of the opptions in a narrative is beyond my imagination.

FD-SL-23 Posted by Aiwendil:There's no need for our text to specify whether the Girdle is gone and therefore Melian departs or Melian departs and therefore the Girdle is gone. And in any case, why should she not go and bring the message to Beren and Luthien? I agree fulheartedly on the first part and I will try to answere the second part: If Melian does not remove the girdle and goes after the death of Thingol to Ossiriand to find Beren and Luthein and than departes we have a timeline problem: during the time that elapsed between Thingols death and Melians depeature, what would the dwarves do? linger on the border of Doriath? That would ruin the surprise effect that is in my view needed for their success. If we have Melian by choice remove the girdle before she goes to Beren than we creat a problem of motiv: Why should she remove the girdle or if she did why should she then send Beren to a revenge. Thus the only logical explanation as Maedhros has understood for Melian to bring the meassage to Beren would be that she losed here ability to protect Doriath and sought his help to rescue what ever could be rescued.
This would in my view mean that when we let Melian bring the message to Beren we would however ambiguous or text meight be implicit state that Melian lost her power with the death of Thingol. I do not say that this is impossible, but I would aviod any statement in that direction even if only given implicit.
For that reason I find it savvest to let her depart without a visit in Ossiriand as it si in Sil77.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Having begun this thread, I am pleased to have so much to comment on now that I've finally completed the entire HoME. I must say that with the exception of these RoD issues (and the omission of relatively finished texts found in Vol X and other defensible if unfortunate abridgements), I think C Tolkien did a fine job with S`77 in publishing the book that his father might have done and wanted to publish in the mid-1950s (apart from never finished matters like the FoG), and he is too hard on himself.

What his father could have had in mind over the succeeding 15 years in terms of a better quality and fully LoTR-congruent work---but was never going to write beyond bits & pieces---is pure speculation. My recent readings of Shippey's and Clyde Kilby's books lead me to believe that JRRT, besides being overwhelmed by fundamental questions of adaptation, was not really interested, much less motivated, in concluding his work on earlier Ages. In short, I wonder about the point and propriety of the New, Revised Silmarillion.

Nevertheless:

1. Húrin had a following. Unless I'm forgetting much from Turambar and The Foalókë; I'm not sure of what is written about the intrigue and debates among the followers as it might relate to their membership as indicated in “Wanderings,” which suggests that the appellation of ‘outlaws’ is unfair; they were homeless and sometimes misguided, but still decent Men, mainly of the 2nd and 3rd Houses, when Beleriand was devoid of "laws."

2. Mîm's guarding the treasure of Nargothrond is a critical element of the Legendarium. It can merely be stated that he was slain, with a concluding comment that "some say it was done contrary to Húrin's wishes, others that Húrin did it himself out of vengeance for the wrongs against his kin." Both are believable, but the latter has greater credence in light of "Wanderings".

3. It seems an obvious device that the treasure and those that handle it are cursed, and it is reasonable that (most of) Húrin's men might have later suffered madness, cruel fates and so forth, whether they kept or not any trinket or portion, given not only the power that Mîm might have possessed as the last of his kind, but also the fact that it was unredeemed Dragon-gold, already imbued with so much treachery and woe.

4. To say that they transported it to Doriath and not to Menegroth, and that Húrin's following (for the most part) did not enter Doriath, but that (all/most/large part of) the treasure was delivered over to the March Wardens at Húrin's command and transported by those Elves to Menegroth, combines elements of both traditions, and nicely avoids the awkwardness of conflict between his followers and the Elves.

5. Húrin, of course, presents the treasure in mockery to Thingol. Though apparently an invention of C Tolkien, the fact that the Melian could and would lift the spell and deceptions of Morgoth seems highly plausible, and it is the one (presumed) invention that I might retain, at least in the sense “that by some reports, Húrin ...".

6. After that, Húrin is only known to have left Doriath, and he was never heard from again. It is not even reported if he rejoined his followers, "but it is said….”

7. That Thingol became unwise and greedy in keeping the gold and having the Silmaril fitted to the Nauglamír, against counsel of Melian, is perfectly reasonable: his arrogance is still part of the later tradition, the treasure is cursed, and his own mind afflicted by grief, regrets and anger. No special device or character seems necessary.

8. The Dwarves naturally lust after the accursed treasure, and in being exposed directly to a Silmaril (regardless of whether they are already at or summoned to Menegroth) they can't help but to be seduced by its glory, and like Thingol, fall under the Doom of Mandos---the underlying thread of destiny in the Beleriandic stories.

9. Upon being met with their demands and seeing their desire for the Silmaril, Thingol becomes enraged in ways analogous to Fëanor, and has them forcibly expelled from Doriath without even their customary recompense for smithy-work.

10. I agree that the action should be limited to the Dwarves of Nogrod. The Dwarves of Belegost are regularly depicted as nobler. In view of what is said in The Shibboleth of Fëanor about the Great Dwarves’ attitude towards the petty-dwarves, Mîm’s murder can hardly be retained as a motivating factor or even a disingenuous excuse.

(Lastly, although the passage in The Hobbit [“Flies and Spiders”] is arguably directed at these First Age events, I’ve often felt that it refers just as well to another conflict more proximate to Thranduil’s realm and more recent than 6,000 years, in that the “elf-king” in question is Thranduil [or maybe Oropher], with the noninvolvement of “Thorin’s family” being explained by the Woodland Realm having been in contact with the next of the seven Dwarven folk to the east, at a time when Moria’s commercial dominance across Rhovanion had ebbed)

11. Even if JRRT struggled with the question, the invincibility of the Girdle of Melian is not necessarily absolute. We see the Sindar still needing to exert considerable effort to defend their frontier, and there are secret gates and pathways into the ‘hidden realm’ that certain Elves could have helped one through, even if Thingol/Melian would have been more or less aware of it. (Thingol is also somewhat responsible for the Girdle, and his capacities may be failing)

12. Likewise, I also question the premise that all of the Doriathrim are above reproach. It seems perfectly acceptable given the influences of curses, avarice and Morgoth's espionage, that some became corrupted or confused, and that betrayal (once again) reared its ugly head, even among Thingol's people, consistent with the tradition that JRRT never actually abandoned. Some may even have been Noldorin Avari or otherwise "Dwarf-friends" like Eol, and/or inhabitants of the borderland of Arthórien beyond Aros.

13. In any event, the Nogrodrim need only attempt (however vainly) to attack Doriath; thusly is Thingol ‘lured’ to the Marches to repulse/punish them. Then the challenge is how with the Girdle intact are the Dwarves able to lay low not only the tallest of the Eldar, but one who is also described as the greatest next to Fëanor. Again, I might combine sketchy traditions (to paraphrase): ‘some say in his confidence and fury that Thingol underestimated the resolve and tenacity of the Dwarves in battle, engaging them with too little force well beyond the confines of Doriath, while others claim in those dark and wicked days that treachery and the lies of Morgoth had entered even into Doriath, so that Thingol and his company were ambushed by Dwarves, who had penetrated parts of the Girdle with the help of greedy Elves ensnared by the Treasure of Nargothrond, or resembling Eol in having long trafficked with the Dwarf kingdoms, and to whom had been promised great reward. What is certain is that Thingol fell, and Mablung beside him, an unfathomable blow to the defenders of Doriath.’

14. To me it seems perfectly appropriate that Melian would have been immediately aware when Thingol’s fea departed from Middle-Earth, and that she and her powers would have rapidly fled, as well. Not only do we see limitations on what Maiars like Olórin or Iarwain Ben-adar are supposed to do in Middle-Earth, but also her existence and authority in Doriath was entirely bound up in her Union with Thingol. Break that Union within Endor, and she has hardly any business being there in a material way. So, while it might be nice for her to visit Lúthien or to have waited on Dior’s taking the throne, I find those storylines at best awkward and unnecessary, and her transporting the Nauglamír untenable in the later traditions (even though it must still get to Beren & Lúthien somehow). Finally, she has to be totally overcome by grief.

15. Therefore, to say that she abandoned her people is unfair. Aside from her obvious and overwhelming grief and the probable passing of her earthly authority to maintain the Girdle, they were her people only by the sacred grace of her marriage to Thingol. I’d also be concerned about exaggerating any wanton destruction or ravaging by the Dwarves as a holdover from the very early tradition of Dwarves as an evilly inclined race. With Thingol’s forces in apparent disarray, the Nogrodrim would have been concerned only with raiding the treasury, which might have been defended (even if not by Mablung).

16. I agree that word of these events should non-specifically reach the Laiquendi, as well as Beren and Lúthien. Tolkien may have wanted to keep Beren hands clean of further blood, but for him to avenge the killing of his father-in-law, and the Green-elves, their ultimate lord, is entirely proper. So, I’m happy to see that the role of Celegorm, Caranthir and/or Curufin is rejected, especially as it would make untenable the alliance of Moria and the fëanorian Elven-smiths in the Second Age.

17. The battle, while significant, need not be seen as a major one. The Dwarves ought to be very much reduced in number, and the Green-elves have the element of surprise as the Dwarves struggle up the eastern bank of Gelion, even as they are lightly armed and of modest size, while nevertheless led by Beren (along with Dior?). Otherwise, as much as possible can be inserted from The Nauglafring, with the Treasure being buried under the Ascar by Beren, and the Ents finishing off the routed Dwarves, as nicely devised by C Tolkien in S`77.

Finally, please note that the above points are not suggested for actual insertion into any text, but rather as arguments for choosing one plot option or another. They might only be used as a suggestion, rumor or allusions in the flow of the text (even in the form of a footnote) where some sort of explanation or justification for events was found to be indispensable for the reader's sake.

[Findegil]

Let's try to come back into that chapter by answering (and ordering) Man of the World's post. First I would like to comment in short to the observation ... I think C Tolkien did a fine job with S`77 in publishing the book that his father might have done and wanted to publish in the mid-1950s (apart from never finished matters like the FoG), and he is too hard on himself.
... In short, I wonder about the point and propriety of the New, Revised Silmarillion. I agree fully with te first part. But that does not necessarily led to the abandonment of revising we do here. In short, in is Forum a group has formed of members that all like to work out a fuller Silmarillion. The reasons for each member are different but the final goal is similar enough to make us cooperate. The question if the final result is need by anyone does not matter. As long as we like to create it (for what ever reason) we will work on.

Now to the points form Man of the World:

FD-SL-01 / Note 1: So we all agree that Húrin had a band with him. The Naming might be objectively wrong, but the cores of the group were the companions from Hithlum and Tolkien ever called them outlaws. Thus, I think we could use that name for Húrin following still.

FD-SL-03 / Note 2: We could clearly give different accounts of Mîm's death in the way Man of the World suggested it. But if we do that as often as suggested we will break the narrative to peaces. And I don't think it is needed her. Q30 is the last source of the event, and even if the motives of Húrin are changed we can still find good reasons for him not to promote or deal out Mîm's death.

FD-SL-10 / Note 3: The fate of the outlaws is discussed already at length in this thread. And we all seem to agree that they could not overcome (at least not all) the cruse of Mîm. How we can make that clear in our text is the difficult part and can, as I think, only be worked out with the text-editing.

FD-SL-05 / Note 4: I don't see the advantage in the storyline Man of the World suggested. Beside the fact that we have no source for it so that it would be pure fan-fiction, we would also ruin the gesture as in Q30 if Elves of Doriath would carry the treasure into the hall. If we are going to accept that awkwardness than we should use the story of Q30 because it would settle the fate of the outlaws nicely.

FD-SL-7 / Note 5: The healing of Húrin is, in my view, not in line with context of the tragedy call Narn. Beside that I even do not see the ability for Melian to do that. Could she have lifte the cruse than she would have done it earlier with Túrin, Morwen and Nienor who were all for some time under her protection. I think Húrin must depart in bitterness. Thus his free death in the western-sea, reported as a rumour, is much more likely.

FD-SL-10 / Note 6: Yes, such a device might be in order for the later fate of the outlaws, but I don't think it will be told from Húrins point of view.

FD-SL-11 / Note 7: I already gave in concerning this point. But if we come to the text we will discuss if we can use Melains advise to through the treasure into Esgalduin at this point or not, and I think we can not if we have not counterpart for the temptation of Thingol.

FD-SL-12 / Note 8: I think we all agree here with Man of the World.

FD-SL-14 to FD-SL-17 / Note 9: I agree with the statement of Man of the World, but to create a text for it we make this more difficult.

FD-SL-17 to FD-SL-19 / Note 10: Agreed in general, but I don't think the passage in The Hobbit can be read like Man of the World does read it. Even in the later position of Thranduils realm in north Mirkwood all his dwarven neighbours were of Dúrins house (Ered Mithrim, Erebor, Ered Engrin) in the former location in southern Mirkwood they were even nearer to the main city of Dúrins Folk. Thus if the family of Thorin was not involved in that incident than the passage must refer to some other realm.

FD-SL-23 / Note 11: I don't think that the girdle could be overcome by treachery at all, and I think Maedhros and Aiwendil agree with me in this point. What the Warriors of Doriath did protect were parts of Thingols realm not included in the Girdle, like Dimbar were Túrin and Beleg fought. People that were rescued from starving in the decides of the Girdle and let in by Elves like Beleg did with Túrin or like Húrin were, at least, thought of by Melian as being in freindly terms with Thingol. And they all were led in as "guarded guests". Clearly it is possible to tell a fan-fictional story were some Elves of Doriath feign to make the army of Naugladur prisoners and thus gained a passage for, but that would by fare beyond the border of the limits set by our rules. And in addition the Dwarves did not need some Elves to show them the way into Doriath, they had visited it many times before. But still JRR Tolkien wrote concerning the Dwarves: "Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army!"

FD-SL-20 / Note 12: It is nice to have someone on my side concerning the treachery of the Elves of Doriath, even if we do not agree in the way it affected the storyline.

FD-SL-21 / Note 13: What Man of the World did suggest her is not useable for the project as it is again hardly fashionable within the rules of the project.

FD-SL-23 / Note 14: I agree on this point, but Maedhros still has an other view.

FD-SL-23.5 / Note 15: Agreed on the first part, but I don't see why the dwarves would not be able for such violence as the ravening of Menegroth. The pitiless fight of the Dwarves against the Orks in the third age is an example for such violence on the side of the Dwarves.

FD-SL-23 / Note 16: Again I agree to Man of the World here but Maedhros seems to have still some objections.

FD-SL-24 to FD-SL-27 / Note 17: It seems we all agree her.

Originally I would have liked to continue now with the discussion of the points in the storyline were Maedhros, Aiwendil and I disagree. But my time for today is running out and I had not have the time to reread all the posts from #49 onward. Also I was the last to make some comments in post #58 thus I could have added not much (I think). The agruments raised in that post at least still stand unanswered.
If I get some time for it in the near future I will try to work out the basic-text from which to start with addition mention in post #58 (with variants for the points of the storyline were we did not jet find an agreement).

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Posted by Findegil
I agree fulheartedly on the first part and I will try to answere the second part: If Melian does not remove the girdle and goes after the death of Thingol to Ossiriand to find Beren and Lúthien and then departes we have a timeline problem: during the time that elapsed between Thingols death and Melians depeature, what would the dwarves do? linger on the border of Doriath? That would ruin the surprise effect that is in my view needed for their success. If we have Melian by choice remove the girdle before she goes to Beren than we create a problem of motive: Why should she remove the girdle or if she did why should she then send Beren to a revenge. Thus the only logical explanation as Maedhros has understood for Melian to bring the meassage to Beren would be that she loosed here ability to protect Doriath and sought his help to rescue what ever could be rescued.
This would in my view mean that when we let Melian bring the message to Beren we would however ambiguous our text might be implicitly state that Melian lost her power with the death of Thingol. I do not say that this is impossible, but I would avoid any statement in that direction even if only given implicit.
For that reason I find it safest to let her depart without a visit in Ossiriand as it is in Sil77.

We have from the Tale of Years
Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.
Let me try and clarify my reasons for wanting to retain the part as stated in the Tale and the Q30.
The Girdle is in place and somehow Thingol is lured outside of it and is killed. How does Melian notices that Thingol is dead? I think that it is safe to assume that the both of them are linked in some way that would allow Melian to know wether or not his hröa is destroyed or not.
Is the Girdle at this time automatically removed or do we need for Melian to leave for it to be gone?
1. If she would need to leave in order for the Girdle to be removed, why not warn the Elves of Menegroth about the slaying of their king in order to prevent an attack, surely they would all be aware of the dispute between them and the Dwarves of Nogrod. This would surely in some way lessen the surprise attack that Findegil posted above that seemed essential to their success.

2. If she was powerless to retain the Girdle, then the surprise element would indeed be in there and we would have no problem with her going to Ossiriand to warn Beren and Lúthien as she does in the Tale and the Q30.

Consider option 1 for a moment, if she still has the power to retain the Girdle, and she chooses to depart, why then can't she go to Ossiriand and warn Beren and Lúthien? To speak for the last time to her daughter and warned her about what happened in there? Does Melian has to be physically in Doriath in order for the Girdle to work?

Consider option 2, if she is powerless over the Girdle, there is no reason then for her not to go and warn Beren and Lúthien about what just happened.

My reason for wanting Melian to go to Ossiriand is that if we do not make the assumption that when Thingol was killed, Melian lost her powers over the Girdle, then in our text it would mean that Melian walked out on Menegroth, in a moment of great need, and I don't think that a great queen like she, would do that. To me it would diminish her character in a way that seems not right to me.

Of course, we also have the possiblity to assume that when JRRT says that Melian departs, it doesn't mean exactly that she must go to Valinor, but she could have make a stop in Ossiriand to warn Beren and Lúthien first.

Posted by Findegil
My reason to go back to a storyline discussion was very similar to that: Working on the text it self one is often carried way by the details and lose the validity out of sight. I see the further work done on this chapter now in quiet a nother way than before: First I saw that we would take a draft from Maedhros or my one and start working form that, but now I would rather take Q30 change what must be change to create the storyline produced here and then start to add details in accordance to our rules form whatever source. Our preliminary drafts will in the end only help to identify the materials that could be added for the sake of details.

I can live with this, but the Material from Q30 is very limited.

[Findegil]

Going back to front:I can live with this, but the Material from Q30 is very limited. I am myself not sure if any sentence of Q30 will survive unchanged in our final version. But when we worked out our drafts without a fixed storyline to bind us, I at least did in some places change the storyline for the sack of detail (even if unintentional). As Aiwendil pointed out that is clearly unwanted. And in addition we did discuss much more textual details than the real problematic storyline issues when working with our drafts. Both problems seem to be cured now.

How does Melian notices that Thingol is dead? I think that it is safe to assume that the both of them are linked in some way that would allow Melian to know wether or not his hröa is destroyed or not. Agreed. Is the Girdle at this time automatically removed or do we need for Melian to leave for it to be gone? I think we are not going to answer that question if we can in any event avoid it. To do so would be interpreting JRR Tolkiens text and is clearly something we should leave for our readers. If we could leave that ambiguous and have Melian bring the message to Beren and Lúthien, I would not have any objection against that. But I can't in the moment see that work out.

In addition I don't see why she would not warn the people of Doriath as you suggest in your option 1. If a message was send to Beren and Lúthien by some one else than Melian than the Elves of Doriath would have had a warning. The Elves were without a leader (especially if we take the hunt, with many of the Lords slain beside Thingol) and in addition the march-wardens of the north that had as jet fought a war out of a effective protection would now need to protect the realm by their own strength. In such a situation a warning immediately before the attack would not help much. It would lessen the surprise but not so much as to save the day for the Elves. (If Thingol had planed a war against the Dwarves, thinks would have been otherwise.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:
I think we are not going to answer that question if we can in any event avoid it.

I think this may be the best way to go, if possible.

I agree, though, that in either case Melian could still warn Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand before departing.

About Man of the Wold's points:

Note 1 - Agree with Findegil; "outlaw" is fine.

Note 2 - I'm still a bit torn about Mim's death. It is said in the extension of GA that preceded "Wanderings" that "Hurin comes to Nargothrond and slays Mim the petty-dwarf". Of course that could simply be compression. I suppose I still lean toward the Q30 version, though I can't say for sure that I won't change my mind.

Note 3 - The fate of the outlaws still strikes me as the most difficult point in the chapter, and I can think of nothing to add to what has already been said about it.

Note 4 - I'm not sure that Man of the Wold's suggestion "ruins the gesture" the way the Q30 version does. But there is no source for it. Also, it appears to be completely unnecessary, as the outlaws would still have to be kept alive up to that point.

Note 5 - I don't think the healing by Melian can be justified in our text at all.

Note 6 - Nothing to add here.

Note 7 - I agree with Man of the Wold here; Thingol's desire for the gold seems fine to me.

Note 8 - Again agreement.

Note 9 - I think that, if all else fails, we can always fall back on the single sentence of Q30 for the quarrel, so the story point definitely stands.

Note 10 - Certainly the Dwarves of Belegost play no part. As for Mim's death - I don't see it necessarily as unusable even as a disingenuous excuse.

Note 11 - I actually half agree with Man of the Wold here. I don't think that the power of the Girdle was necessarily absolute. Perhaps it could have been overcome by treachery. But I think that in our version it must be the case that it was not in fact overcome by treachery. The note that Findegil mentions makes that plain.

Note 12 - I think it's possible for some of the Elves of Doriath to be treacherous. But, again, I don't think that it's useable in our version.

Note 13 - I agree with Findegil - we cannot use a version like that.

Notes 14, 15 and 16 - I addressed these points briefly above and can think of nothing to add. Is there still a disagreement between Findegil and Maedhros here?

Note 17 - Agree.

[Maédhros]

Findegil, I thought that you were going to make a new draft for us to use in this chapter using the Chapter 14 referece of the Quenta.

[Findegil]

Sorry for the long delay, but at first I thought it would be good to wait until the discussion had cleared even the last open points and then the task was driven by other things from my mind.

So now here we go:
Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30) Hurin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of {Glomund}[Glaurung] and his very memory. But one Mîm the Dwarf they found there. FD-SL-03{This is the first coming of the Dwarves into these tales of the ancient world; and it is said that Dwarves first spread west from Erydluin, the Blue Mountains, into Beleriand after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.} Now Mîm had found the halls and treasure of Nargothrond unguarded; and he took possession of them, and sat there in joy fingering the gold and gems, and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells. But the folk of Mîm were few, and the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew them, though Hurin would have stayed them, and at his death Mîm cursed the gold.
FD-SL-03{And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Hurin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Hurin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.}<TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and they murmured at that, but he said: ‘Are ye become as the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth], that would lie and wallow in gold and seek no other joy? A sweeter life shall ye have in the court of that king of greed, an ye bear such treasury to him, than all the gold of Valinor can get you in the empty woods.’
Now his heart was bitter against {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and he desired to have a vengeance on him, as may be seen. So great was that hoard that great though {Úrin}[Húrin]'s company might be scarce could they bear it to the caves of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king, and some 'tis said was left behind and some was lost upon the way, and evil has followed its finders for ever.
Yet in the end that laden host came to the {bridge before the doors}, and being asked by the guards {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Say to the king that {Úrin}[Húrin] the Steadfast is come bearing gifts[.’]{,’ and}[And when] this was done{.}>, < Year 502 of The Grey Annals, WH Húrin {is}[was] admitted in pity.> Then Hurin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, and he reproached the Elfking with wild and bitter words. 'Receive thou,' said he, 'thy fee for thy fair keeping of my wife and kin.'
Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, and long he bore with Hurin; but Hurin scorned him, and wandered forth {in quest of Morwen his wife, but it is not said that he found her ever upon the earth}; and some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men.
<TN Now {therefore} did {those}[some] of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur, and one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.'
Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol] for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: {‘Nay then, know ye not that this gold belongs to the kindred of the Elves in common, for the Rodothlim who won it from the earth long time ago are no more, and no one has especial claim' to so much as a handful save only Úrin by reason of his son Túrin, who slew the Worm, the robber of the Elves; yet Túrin is dead and Úrin will have none of it; and Túrin was my man.’
At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath, until the king said: }‘Get ye now gone, and seek not O foolish ones to quarrel with the Elves of the forest, lest death or the dread enchantments of Valinor find you in the woods. Neither revile ye the name of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] their king, for I will reward you richly enough for your travail and the bringing of the gold. Let each one now approach and take what he may grasp with either hand, and then depart in peace.’>
<editorial bridge Thus the outlaws departed, ><TN and none may say what was {his}[there] unhappy weird thereafter; and little but a tortured heart got {he}[they] from the Gold of {Glorund}[Glaurung].>
Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth. Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod FD-SL-18{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems (for much was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril.
But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.
And Thingol, falling deeper into the thraldom of the spell, for his part scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls. There many Elves and Dwarves were slain, and the howe wherein they were laid in Doriath was named Cum-nan-Arasaith, the Mound of Avarice. But the remainder of the Dwarves were driven forth without reward or fee.Since we have not come to a final decision about some points in the next §§ I will spilt the text her to Version a and Version b:Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod FD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length, FD-SL-20a and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen they FD-SL-21a{passed into Doriath secretly. There they} surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} < HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be}[somehow they] contrived [it] that Thingol {is}[was] lured outside {or induced to go to war beyond} his borders and {is}[was] there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian {departs}[departed], and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}[was] ravaged by the Dwarves.>Now for version b:Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod FD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length[.] [b]FD-SL-20b {, and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen they passed into Doriath secretly. There they surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms and Thingol was slain } FD-SL-21b < HoME11; The Tale of The Years Somehow {it must be}[they] contrived [it] that Thingol {is}[was] {lured outside or} induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is}[was] there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian {departs}[departed], and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}[was] ravaged by the Dwarves.>Further one we will again take only on text[And]{, and} the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered; and so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand.
FD-SL-23 Queen Melian {the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she} went forth to seek Beren and Luthien. Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the River Gelion, where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], son{s} of Feanor. To the south of those lands between the river Gelion and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, Gelion, Ascar, Thalos, Legolin, Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant. There lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Luthien, in that time of respite which Luthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Cor}[Tirion], nor of Doriath{, though many had fought at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears}. But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Luthien remained Elves called it oft {Gwenh-i-cuina }[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live.
To the north of that region is a ford across the river Gelion, near to its joining with Ascar that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named {Sarn-athrad}[Sarn Athrad], the Ford of Stones. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; {and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain,} and well nigh all their host[ were slain]. FD-SL-24<Sil77 {but} some escaping from the ambush held together, and fled eastwards towards the mountains. And as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> [b]FD-SL-26 <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and{ he remembered the words of Gwendelin, for} behold, Beren came towards him and he cast aside his bow, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.
Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an thou canst, O crook-legged murderer, else will I take it,’ and Naugladur bid him even the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the necklace of wonder, that he be suffered to go unharmed; but Beren said: ‘Nay, that may I still take when thou art slain,’ and thereat he made alone upon Naugladur and his companions, and having slain the foremost of these the others fled away amid elfin laughter, and so Beren came upon Naugladur, slayer of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]. Then did that aged one defend himself doughtily, and 'twas a bitter fight, and many of the Elves that watched for love and fear of their captain fingered their bow-strings, but Beren called even as he fought that all should stay their hands.
Now little doth the tale tell of wounds and blows of that affray, save that Beren got many hurts therein', and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his dwarfen mail; and it is said that three hours they fought and Beren's arms grew weary, but not those of Naugladur accustomed to wield his mighty hammer at the forge, and it is more than like that otherwise would the issue have been but for the curse of Mîm; for marking how Beren grew faint Naugladur pressed him ever more nearly, and the arrogance that was of that grievous spell came into his heart, and he thought: ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Men], and his folk will flee in fear before me,’ and grasping his sword he dealt a mighty blow and cried: ‘Take here thy bane, O stripling of the woods,’ and in that moment his foot found a jagged stone and he stumbled forward, but Beren slipped aside from that blow and catching at his beard his hand found the carcanet of gold, and therewith he swung Naugladur suddenly off his feet upon his face: and Naugladur's sword was shaken from his grasp, but Beren seized it and slew him therewith, for he said: ‘I will not, sully my bright blade with thy dark blood, since there is no need.’ But the body of Naugladur was cast into the {Aros}[Ascar].>
But Beren took the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril; and it is said and sung that Luthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained.
FD-SL-30{And in time the brief hour of the loveliness of the land of Rathloriel departed. For Luthien faded as Mandos had spoken, even as the Elves of later days faded, when Men waxed strong and usurped the goodness of the earth; and she vanished from the world; and Beren died, and none know where their meeting shall be again. Yet it hath been sung that Luthien alone of Elves hath been numbered among our race, and goeth whither we go to a fate beyond the world.}
FD-SL-29 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Luthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of Men, and of the Elves, and of the spirits divine of Valinor[.]<Sil77 Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.>{; yet it}[Yet Dior was not] shielded {him not} from the fate of the oath of the sons of Feanor. For Dior went back to Doriath FD-SL-31 <TY and with the power of the Silmaril {restores}[restored] it>[,] and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, and she departed to the land of the {Gods}[Valar] beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.
But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. FD-SL-32 <TN [Yet]{yet} is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the seven sons of Féanor, remembering their oath. Now {Maidros}[Maedhros], whom {Melko}[Morgoth] maimed, was their leader; and he called to his brethren Maglor{ and Dinithel,} and to {Damrod}[Amrod, and to Celegorm, to {Cranthor}[Caranthir] and to Curufin the Crafty{,}[.]> For while Luthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even {Maidros}[Celegorm] dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the seven gathered again from wandering{; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain and his young sons Eldun and Elrun}[.] <TN [And Celegrom] {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Féanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the southern vales, ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes - but do you not forget,’ said he, ‘that we swore to have no peace with {Melko}[Morgoth] nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Féanor from us. For what,’ said {Maidros}[Celegrom], ‘do we suffer exile and wandering and rule over a scant and forgotten folk, if others gather to their hoard the heirlooms that are ours?’>
<TY {Maidros}[Maedhros] restrains his brethren[.]><TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] unbroken be given to the sons of Féanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone,><TY [he returned] {Dior returns} no answer[.]>
<TN Then went Curufin unto his brethren, <TY [and] Celegorn {inflames}[inflamed] the brethren[,]> and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of elfin folk upon elfin folk, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalie for their sufferings. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon FD-SL-33{Dior}><TY east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}[was] slain, <TY {There}[there] fell also Celegorn (by Dior's hand) {and Curufin and Cranthir.}>[,]FD-SL-34 Q30 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.<TN {yet}[Yet] behold, <TY {The}[the] Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth] escaped with Elwing>{Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a Gnome, took her unwilling} in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and[ they] came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Féanor saw it not; but <TY [the]{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegrom seized] Dior's sons ({Elrun and Eldun}[Eluréd and Elurín]) and {leave}[left] them to starve in the forest. (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].><Sil77 Of this Maedhros[ later] indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing[.]>
<TN [A] {a} host of Dior's folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on the{ir} rear[ of the host of the sons of Feanor], and there was a great battle, {and Maglor was slain with swords, and Mai.... died of wounds in the wild,} and Celegorm was pierced with a hundred arrows, and {Cranthor}[Caranthir] beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Feanor masters of the field of slain, and the {brown}[grey] Elves{ and the green} were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to {Maidros}[Maedhros] the maimed, nor to {Curufin}[Maglor] and {Damrod}[Amrod] who had slain their lord>[.]
FD-SL-36 Q30 {Yet the sons of Feanor gained not the Silmaril; for faithful servants fled before them and took with them Elwing the daughter of Dior, and she escaped, and they bore with them the Nauglamír, and came}[And] in time <TY hearing the rumour /that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens/ {she}[Nimloth] fled> to the mouth of the river Sirion by the sea.You will see that I have given in to Maedhros desire to have Melian as the Messenger to Beren and Luthien. After some pondering I came to the conclusion that in effect Melian did fail to hold the girdle in place. Why this was the case we are not told. So there is no great difference what she does afterwards. Equally if she left Doriath going to Valinor or to Ossiriand, she left her people unprotected.
The single point left now where we still do not agree is the fight of the Dwarves against Doriath. In version a we can add some further details but I don’t see that for version b. I repeat my self for post 58 : It all comes down to the question if we will take "Thingol is lured outside {...} his borders" or "Thingol is {...} induced to go to war beyond his borders". I do not see any forcing reason to drive us one way or the other. And even if some one could bring in such a reason, I still think that option b could be a planed revision that is unworkable for us, while option a we could nicely incorporate into existing writings.
In the end of my working (the fight of the Feanorians against Dior) I introduce much more detailed material since that was what was agreed upon in the discussion before and I found it not necessary to search first more storyline-like sentence to expand them later. The result is a nearly not readable text, if it is forum-formated, my apologies for this. But it shows nicely were I am aiming at in the end.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Great work Findegil, as of yet, I have not been able to read it in great detail but it looks very good for now.

I think that we are still missing the link between the last part of the Wanderings of Húrin and that of the beginning of chapter 14 of the Quenta.

I still think that there are lots of details that can be added to our story in general. Such as an exchange between the dwarves and Thingol, etc.

You will see that I have given in to Maedhros desire to have Melian as the Messenger to Beren and Luthien. After some pondering I came to the conclusion that in effect Melian did fail to hold the girdle in place. Why this was the case we are not told. So there is no great difference what she does afterwards. Equally if she left Doriath going to Valinor or to Ossiriand, she left her people unprotected.
Thanks.

The single point left now where we still do not agree is the fight of the Dwarves against Doriath. In version a we can add some further details but I don’t see that for version b. I repeat my self for post 58 : It all comes down to the question if we will take "Thingol is lured outside {...} his borders" or "Thingol is {...} induced to go to war beyond his borders". I do not see any forcing reason to drive us one way or the other. And even if some one could bring in such a reason, I still think that option b could be a planed revision that is unworkable for us, while option a we could nicely incorporate into existing writings.

I really think that the way that you handled the crux of the matter of the dwarves attacking Thingol is the way to go. I would chose option b myself because in there you do not use the elven traitors that I have been against their inclusion.

In the end of my working (the fight of the Feanorians against Dior) I introduce much more detailed material since that was what was agreed upon in the discussion before and I found it not necessary to search first more storyline-like sentence to expand them later. The result is a nearly not readable text, if it is forum-formated, my apologies for this. But it shows nicely were I am aiming at in the end.
I really liked those additions in a general sense, I would hope that if Aiwendil is ok with them.

[Findegil]

Posted by Maedhros:I would chose option b myself because in there you do not use the elven traitors that I have been against their inclusion. It seems I have polarised it to much. The elven traitors should not be the singel point to vote for option b! It is ofcourse possible to work out option a without them. I will call that option c:Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod FD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length, FD-SL-20c{ and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen} they FD-SL-21a{passed into Doriath secretly. There they} surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} < HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be}[somehow they] contrived [it] that Thingol {is}[was] lured outside {or induced to go to war beyond} his borders and {is}[was] there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian {departs}[departed], and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}[was] ravaged by the Dwarves.> We should split the discussion here between the elven traitors and the way we us the famous note about the Dwarven invasion. I can go without the elven traitors, even when I still think that they are possible ingredent of the story that we have no hard evedence against. But it will need some hard discussions to drag me over to version b! In contrast to my own comment in post 58, I would now rather use the note completly if both of you are fixed in execluding the hunt. Which would bring us to version d:Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod FD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length[.] FD-SL-20b {, and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen they passed into Doriath secretly. There they surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms and Thingol was slain } FD-SL-21b <editorial brige The full tale of that battle was never told, but>< HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be}[somehow they] contrived [it] that Thingol {is}[was] lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is}[was] there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian {departs}[departed], and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}[was] ravaged by the Dwarves.> Even if I provide these version I am still voting for a or if it must be c.

Posted by Maedhros:I think that we are still missing the link between the last part of the Wanderings of Húrin and that of the beginning of chapter 14 of the Quenta. Clearly yes. But our versions were driving close together, and there were no storyline issues in that part, so that I found we could deal with it later while adding details to the skeleton-storyline-version I created.

Posted by Maedhros:I still think that there are lots of details that can be added to our story in general. Such as an exchange between the dwarves and Thingol, etc. Thats for sure! But the issue was to creat a version of the story that we use as guideline while we add these details. The level of detail that I wish for is more or less shown in the last part.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

FD-SL-29 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Lúthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of {Men}[the Edain], and of the {Elves}[Eldar], and of the {spirits divine of Valinor}[ Maiar of the Blessed Realm][.]<Sil77 Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.>{; yet it}[Yet Dior was not] shielded {him not} from the fate of the oath of the sons of Fëanor. For Dior went back to Doriath FD-SL-31 <TY and with the power of the Silmaril {restores}[restored] it>[,] and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, and she departed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.
But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. FD-SL-32 <TN Yet is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the {seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath. Now Maedhros, whom Morgoth maimed, was their leader; and he called to his brethren Maglor and to [Amrod, and to Celegorm, and to [Caranthir] and to Curufin the Crafty{,}[.]> For while Lúthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even {Maidros}[Celegorm] dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the {seven}[brothers] gathered again from wandering{; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain and his young sons Eldun and Elrun}[.] <TN [And Celegorm] {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the southern vales, ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes - but do you not forget,’ said he, ‘that we swore to have no peace with Morgoth nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Fëanor from us. For what,’ said {Maidros}[Celegorm], ‘do we suffer exile and wandering and rule over a scant and forgotten folk, if others gather to their hoard the heirlooms that are ours?’>
<TY {Maidros}[Maedhros] restrain{s}[ed] his brethren{[.]} [and]><TN {T}[t]hus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the Nauglamír, fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the Nauglamír unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone{,><TY [he returned] {Dior returns} no answer[.]>}[.]
<TN Then went Curufin unto his brethren, <TY [and] Celegorn {inflames}[inflamed] {the brethren}[them][,]> and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk{, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalië for their sufferings}. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon FD-SL-33{Dior}><TY [the] east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}[was] slain, <TY {There}[and there] fell also Celegorn (by Dior's hand) {and Curufin and Cranthir.}>[,]FD-SL-34 Q30 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.<TN {yet}[Yet] behold, <TY {The}[the] Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth] escaped with Elwing>{Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a Gnome, took her unwilling} in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and[ they] came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the Nauglamír, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but <TY [the]{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegorm seized] Dior's sons (Eluréd and Elurín) and {leave}[left] them to starve in the forest.> <Sil77 Of this Maedhros[ later] indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing[.]><TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].>
<TN [A] {a} host of Dior's folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on the{ir} rear[ of the host of the sons of Fëanor], and there was a great battle, {and Maglor was slain with swords, and Mai.... died of wounds in the wild,} and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and Caranthir beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Fëanor masters of the field of slain, and the grey Elves { and the green} were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to {Maidros}[Maedhros] {the maimed,} nor to {Curufin}[Maglor] and {Damrod}[Amrod] who had slain[ed] their lord>[.]
FD-SL-36 Q30 {Yet the sons of Fëanor gained not the Silmaril; for faithful servants fled before them and took with them Elwing the daughter of Dior, and she escaped, and they bore with them the Nauglamír, and came}[And] in time <TY hearing the rumour /that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens/ {she}[Nimloth and her company] fled> to the mouth of the river Sirion by the sea.

I have only added a few such things that are in bold. We cannot use seven of course because at that point there are only 6 of the alive.

I deleted {, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalië for their sufferings} this because the sons of Fëanor were already kinslayers at that point.

In here: and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and Caranthir beside him.
Celegorm had to be deleted because he was already killed by Dior.

All of the other changes are very minor in nature, like the additions of prepositions and past tense of certain verbs.

There is this also:
<TY and[ they] came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the Nauglamír, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but <TY [the]{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegorm seized] Dior's sons (Eluréd and Elurín) and {leave}[left] them to starve in the forest.> <Sil77 Of this Maedhros[ later] indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing[.]><TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].>

I altered the order of that parragraph just because I think that it reads better this way.

We should split the discussion here between the elven traitors and the way we us the famous note about the Dwarven invasion. I can go without the elven traitors, even when I still think that they are possible ingredent of the story that we have no hard evedence against. But it will need some hard discussions to drag me over to version b! In contrast to my own comment in post 58, I would now rather use the note completly if both of you are fixed in execluding the hunt. Which would bring us to version d:
I would really hope that we could use a little part of the hunt in our version. It all depends on Aiwendil really. I'm in favor of it.

[Findegil]

FD-SL-29 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Lúthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of {Men}[the Edain], and of the {Elves}[Eldar], and of the {spirits divine of Valinor}[ Maiar of the Blessed Realm][.] Were is the reason for these changes? Clearly Beren is an adan, but isn't he one of fairest and goodliest of all mankind? And for Thingol it is the same: he is of the Eldar, but that does not make him no Elf. And what are the Maiar of the Blessed Realm other than the spirits divine of Valinor? At best the changes could be stilistic ones.

We cannot use seven of course because at that point there are only 6 of the alive. Agreed, I missed that issue.

I deleted {, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalië for their sufferings} this because the sons of Fëanor were already kinslayers at that point. But the kinslaying at Aqualond was initiated by their father and not by themself. Nonthless you might be right. When TN was written none of the Noldor crossed Belegaer by ship.

In here: and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and Caranthir beside him. What a miss of mine! Thanks for correting!

The shifting of the §§ concerned with Elured and Elurin is okay for me, even when I consider it as not really needed.


I would really hope that we could use a little part of the hunt in our version. It all depends on Aiwendil really. I'm in favor of it. So let's here Aiwendil.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

About the hunt: I'm afraid that the more I think about the "Doriath cannot be invaded by a hostile army" note, the more I'm inclined to view it as directly contradicting the story of the hunt. It has it that Thingol was "lured" outside or "induced to go to war". What need then for a hunt? Moreover, if the hunt had not been rejected, what need for Thingol to be lured or induced to battle outside the Girdle? The hunt was clearly not something Tolkien had in mind any longer. If we re-introduced it, it seems to me, it would essentially be fan-fiction.

Is there any real argument that favors the hunt, aside from mere personal taste? If so, of course, I could perhaps be lured or induced to change my mind.

Something like Findegil's FD-SL-20d could work for me, though as it stands the phrasing is a bit awkward. But I'm confident it could be fixed.

It seems that our "storyline" is rapidly turning into a full text at some points! It's of course not really a storyline point, but like Findegil I miss the purpose of:

FD-SL-29 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Lúthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of {Men}[the Edain], and of the {Elves}[Eldar], and of the {spirits divine of Valinor}[ Maiar of the Blessed Realm][.]

[Findegil]

As I feared my version d would bring no good for my own point of view. But alas I have let it slip out and we must all know what we are talking about.About the hunt: I'm afraid that the more I think about the "Doriath cannot be invaded by a hostile army" note, the more I'm inclined to view it as directly contradicting the story of the hunt. It would be good, if you could explain that feeling more in detail. I think, that here is the real point of dissens. I agree with you that the hunt can not be used as the way the girdle was circumvented. But the hunt was never used in that way. Thus it would be fanfictional indeed.
In the older versions the Dwarves had already crossed the girdle by help of treacherous Elves. The function of the hunt was to provide an opportunity for the Dwarves to surprise Thingol with only a small company.
I don't plan to change the function of the hunt, as to make it the way by which the girdle was overcome. I rather would like to use the hunt as an opportunity, for the Dwarves to lure Thingol more easily out of the girdle, since he is already near the borders. It would then in addition have old function to reduce Thingols forces involved in the conflict.
If the girdle should be any protection for Thingol he had to be inside for ever. Thus I think that the tarditional hunt in memory of the wolfhunt was held inside Doriath and the girdle. Since the effect of the girdle had changed, it could not be a wolfhunt - no wolf would be able to cross the girdle, if he was not carrying a Silmaril, which would not happen agian. Thus the hunt in memorian of Beren would be on other wild animals. It would not led Thingol outside the girdle but nearer to the border (Menegroth is nearly in the center of Doriath). Thus the hunt would be a chance for the Dwarves to provocate some rush aktion leding Thingol outside the protection of the girdle with only a small force around him.

If we don't use the hunt, it is much harder for me to see Thingol lured outside or worst going to war beyond the borders with only company small enough to be overcome by the Dwarves easy enough so that they could ransack Menegroth in the same ride.

After explaining this, I will go on to explain why I would like to have the treacherous Elves: in TN they were the way to bring the girdle down, but the girdle was in anyway no real protection. These function will be no longer possible. But if (and only if) the hunt is used by the Dwarves for provocing Thingol at this opportunity, than they did need very exact information about the hunt: where exactly and at which time was it lunched. In TN Narsec is recorded to bring exactly that information to Naugladur which he used for his planes. But Nasec is not named as leading the Dwarves through the girdle. These was done by some other treacherous elves. Thus if the hunt is uesd I would like to includ Narsecs role but nothing more.

It seems that our "storyline" is rapidly turning into a full text at some points! Agreed, but what would be the use of reducing the text first to expaned it later on?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

In the older versions the Dwarves had already crossed the girdle by help of treacherous Elves. The function of the hunt was to provide an opportunity for the Dwarves to surprise Thingol with only a small company.
I don't plan to change the function of the hunt, as to make it the way by which the girdle was overcome. I rather would like to use the hunt as an opportunity, for the Dwarves to lure Thingol more easily out of the girdle, since he is already near the borders. It would then in addition have old function to reduce Thingols forces involved in the conflict.
If the girdle should be any protection for Thingol he had to be inside for ever. Thus I think that the tarditional hunt in memory of the wolfhunt was held inside Doriath and the girdle. Since the effect of the girdle had changed, it could not be a wolfhunt - no wolf would be able to cross the girdle, if he was not carrying a Silmaril, which would not happen agian. Thus the hunt in memorian of Beren would be on other wild animals. It would not led Thingol outside the girdle but nearer to the border (Menegroth is nearly in the center of Doriath). Thus the hunt would be a chance for the Dwarves to provocate some rush aktion leding Thingol outside the protection of the girdle with only a small force around him.
This is exactly my way of thinking too. I don't see anything wrong per se in keeping the hunt.

After explaining this, I will go on to explain why I would like to have the treacherous Elves: in TN they were the way to bring the girdle down, but the girdle was in anyway no real protection. These function will be no longer possible. But if (and only if) the hunt is used by the Dwarves for provocing Thingol at this opportunity, than they did need very exact information about the hunt: where exactly and at which time was it lunched. In TN Narsec is recorded to bring exactly that information to Naugladur which he used for his plans. But Nasec is not named as leading the Dwarves through the girdle. These was done by some other treacherous elves. Thus if the hunt is uesd I would like to include Narsecs role but nothing more.
This is really a good point about the treachery of the Elves. Unfortunately for me, I don't see how could there be treacherous elves in Menegroth and have JRRT write so very little about them.
As the characters have evolved as time passed, we know now that the Dwarves in Nogrod had a long tradition with the Elves of Menegroth. Is it not possible that those dwarves could have know about the traditions of the Hunt (where it took place and when) because of their interaction with them. I would not want to see treacherous elves if we can avoid it.

Were is the reason for these changes? Clearly Beren is an adan, but isn't he one of fairest and goodliest of all mankind? And for Thingol it is the same: he is of the Eldar, but that does not make him no Elf. And what are the Maiar of the Blessed Realm other than the spirits divine of Valinor? At best the changes could be stilistic ones.
Ok, they were really changes in style and not substance.

[Aiwendil]

I must say that I am still unsure and have not yet made up my mind concerning the hunt. But the fact that ToY as written simply has the Dwarves invading Doriath, sacking Menegroth, and killing Thingol suggests to me that the whole of the story at this point was changed from Q30. In other words, the ToY version seems to me to contradict the story of the treacherous Elves and Thingol's hunt. Now it's true that the ToY story had the critical flaw that it ignored the Girdle of Melian, and this led Tolkien to the story projected in the note. But I don't see the note as necessarily representing a reversion to the elements of Thingol's hunt and the treacherous Elves.

However, that line of reasoning isn't entirely clear-cut since it depends on the truth of the proposition that ToY contradicts Q30, which is, I suppose, an unclear point.

I suppose the maint point is that, to me anyway, it feels canonically safer not to mention the hunt or the treacherous Elves. Whether that safety is worth dropping those elements is unclear to me.

Certainly, though, the idea that the treacherous Elves aided the Dwarves in luring Thingol outside the border is to some degree fan-fictional. For the function of the treacherous Elves in Q30 was to allow Dwarves in. To keep them and change their function entirely seems too much of a liberty to me. Indeed - one wonders why in such a story the Elves could not have done what they did in Q30 and simply let the Dwarves through the Girdle.

It seems to me far simpler (and as a result, better, at least in the one point) to have Thingol simply hear of the Dwarves' hostile intent and ride forth to war beyond the borders. That follows the note with minimal elaboration. Also, whether Thingol is "lured or induced" from Menegroth or from his hunt seems quite irrelevant with regard to its believability - Thingol is equally foolish for stepping outside the Girdle in either case.

[Findegil]

Aha Aiwendil, I think I begin to undestand your point of view now a bit better.However, that line of reasoning isn't entirely clear-cut since it depends on the truth of the proposition that ToY contradicts Q30, which is, I suppose, an unclear point. These proposition seems wrong to me, at least concerning the hunt. If we look at the diferent sources:

TN -> the hunt is mentioned, treacherous Elves are included
S -> the hunt is mentioned, treacherous Elves are included
Q30-> the hunt is mentioned, treacherous Elves are included

AB1 -> the hunt is NOT mentioned, treacherous Elves are included
AB2 -> the hunt is NOT mentioned, treacherous Elves are included
TY -> the hunt is NOT mentioned, treacherous Elves are EXEcluded

Thus the hunt was claerly part of the story when Ab1 and Ab2 where written. These Annals were much fuller than then TY (they were been accompanied by Tale of the Year versions, which we don't have). It seems wrong to me, to execlud the hunt, only because it isn't metioned in TY which Tolkien composed clearly with AB2 or the accompanying Tale of the Year version in front of him.
I see now that this is clearly otherwise for the treacherous Elves. They were included in AB2 and execluded from TY. Thus it seems that Tolkien rejected them. But Maedhros did give us the way to use the hunt without them: As the characters have evolved as time passed, we know now that the Dwarves in Nogrod had a long tradition with the Elves of Menegroth. Is it not possible that those dwarves could have know about the traditions of the Hunt (where it took place and when) because of their interaction with them. And so I agree (at last) to scip them from our version.


I suppose the main point is that, to me anyway, it feels canonically safer not to mention the hunt or the treacherous Elves. Whether that safety is worth dropping those elements is unclear to me. It is clearly the case that the less details we provide, the more canonical-safty we get. But how riscy is it to include the hunt?
In view of the discussion, I think we are all now no longer absolutly sure about this issue. Thus I think we should find at first some common ground:
- Do we all agree that Thingol had not a great host of Sindarin Elves withhim when he was killed?
- If so, can we incooperat that into our version even if the hunt is not used?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

It seems to me far simpler (and as a result, better, at least in the one point) to have Thingol simply hear of the Dwarves' hostile intent and ride forth to war beyond the borders. That follows the note with minimal elaboration. Also, whether Thingol is "lured or induced" from Menegroth or from his hunt seems quite irrelevant with regard to its believability - Thingol is equally foolish for stepping outside the Girdle in either case.
What I don't understand is why can't you envision a story where there is the hunt and not the threacherous elves in it, unless I'm not getting your point.
It is clearly the case that the less details we provide, the more canonical-safty we get. But how riscy is it to include the hunt?
In view of the discussion, I think we are all now no longer absolutly sure about this issue. Thus I think we should find at first some common ground:
- Do we all agree that Thingol had not a great host of Sindarin Elves withhim when he was killed?
- If so, can we incooperat that into our version even if the hunt is not used?

I for one have never doubted about keeping the hunt, but to have some common ground:
I agree that Thingol had not a great host of Sindarin Elves and I do think that we can incorporate them in our plot.

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:
Thus the hunt was claerly part of the story when Ab1 and Ab2 where written. These Annals were much fuller than then TY (they were been accompanied by Tale of the Year versions, which we don't have). It seems wrong to me, to execlud the hunt, only because it isn't metioned in TY which Tolkien composed clearly with AB2 or the accompanying Tale of the Year version in front of him.

That's a very good point. I suppose TY cannot be considered to contradict the hunt.

- Do we all agree that Thingol had not a great host of Sindarin Elves withhim when he was killed?


I don't see that this is necessitated. It's not beyond belief that the Dwarves of Nogrod could defeat the Sindar of Doriath in a straight battle.

Maedhros wrote:
What I don't understand is why can't you envision a story where there is the hunt and not the threacherous elves in it, unless I'm not getting your point.

Oh, I can. The treacherous Elves are indeed a distinct issue from the hunt.

I do not see the hunt as a potential way to make the story that Thingol was lured beyond the Girdle more plausible. As I said, I think it just as plausible that Thingol was lured outside in either case. For me, the decision comes down, very simply, to the question of Tolkien's intention at the time of the note to TY.

But Findegil's point has made me far less sure about TY contradicting the hunt. I still have some reservations; it still seems to me somewhat safer not to include it. But since I'm ambivalent and the two of you are clearly for the hunt, we might as well adopt it.

The treacherous Elves, though, I'm still rather inclined to drop.

[Aiwendil]

Going back a bit:

RD-16 Nauglath (dwarves of Nogrod) to Firebeards per The Peoples of Middle-Earth,

RD-17
Indrafangs (dwarves of Belegost) to Broadbeams per Home 12 see RD-17.


Do we know for certain that the Firebeards were the Dwarves of Nogrod and the Broadbeams those of Belegost? As I recall, the way things are phrased in HoMe XII leaves open the possibility that it was the other way around: Firebeards = Belegost and Broadbeams = Nogrod.

RD-21
Sarnathrod to Sarn Athrad per QS77.

Shouldn't this be Harathrad per a change made on the map and mentioned in "Of Maeglin" in XI?

RD-22
Lamp of Faëry to Silmaril (jewel of Fëanor) per Bolt II.


I don't understand this change.

[Maédhros]

I do not see the hunt as a potential way to make the story that Thingol was lured beyond the Girdle more plausible. As I said, I think it just as plausible that Thingol was lured outside in either case. For me, the decision comes down, very simply, to the question of Tolkien's intention at the time of the note to TY.

But Findegil's point has made me far less sure about TY contradicting the hunt. I still have some reservations; it still seems to me somewhat safer not to include it. But since I'm ambivalent and the two of you are clearly for the hunt, we might as well adopt it.

I see your point now. But throughout all of the stories that Findegil posted before regarding the evolution of the story of the Ruin of Doriath while it is true that it evolved greatly in time, there is no explicit mention that the Hunt was ever abandoned.
The way that I see it is that if we can use the hunt and that it might help us make the transition towards having the opportunity to having Thingol killed by the dwarves then we should do it.

The treacherous Elves, though, I'm still rather inclined to drop.
I have always been in favor of dismissing the elves and we all 3 are in agremeent in that one.

From The War of the Jewels: Of Maeglin
This text then becomes altogether illegible. At the mention of 'the last Ford over Gelion' he added a note that the name Sarn Athrad of this ford must be changed to Harathrad 'South Ford', 'in contrast to the much used northern ford where the river was not yet very swift or deep, nearly due east of Eöl's house (72 miles distant)'; and against Harathrad here he wrote Athrad Daer ('the Great Ford').
On another page the following names are proposed as replacements for Sarn Athrad: 'Athrad i-Nogoth [> Negyth] or Athrad Dhaer, "Ford of the Dwarves" or "Great Ford"'.
I think that you are right about this one.

Do we know for certain that the Firebeards were the Dwarves of Nogrod and the Broadbeams those of Belegost? As I recall, the way things are phrased in HoMe XII leaves open the possibility that it was the other way around: Firebeards = Belegost and Broadbeams = Nogrod.

Yes, as I have read it now it is ambiguous as to which is which so I think that I would rather say dwarves of Nogrod.

Having looked at Of Maeglin, I noticed another name that needs to be changed:

RD-38
Gelion to Duin Dhaer.

On line M at the foot of the map are these pencilled notes (again with the number 71, see p. 187, §30); 'These river-names need revision to etymologizable words. Celon should go. Gelion should be Duin Dhaer.' On these changes see pp. 336-7 and note 10.

Lamp of Faëry to Silmaril (jewel of Fëanor) per Bolt II.
What I meant by this is that the name Faëry no longer applies in the later works of JRRT and since the Lamp of Faëry implies that it is the Silmaril, I thought to use the name Silmaril instead.

I wonder, do we have any other major point of conflict with the storyline?

[Findegil]

I wonder, do we have any other major point of conflict with the storyline? I don't think so. So we will use option c[{b]: Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod [b]FD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length, FD-SL-20c{ and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen} they FD-SL-21a{passed into Doriath secretly. There they} surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} < HoME11; [i]The Tale of The Years[i] {Somehow it must be}[somehow they] contrived [it] that Thingol {is}[was] lured outside {or induced to go to war beyond} his borders and {is}[was] there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian {departs}[departed], and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}[was] ravaged by the Dwarves.>

RD-16 & RD-17Yes, as I have read it now it is ambiguous as to which is which so I think that I would rather say dwarves of Nogrod. Agreed. We can finde arguments for both, so we must let it ambiguous.

RD-21 Sarnathrod & Sarn Athrad to Harathrad
Agreed

RD-22 Lamp of Faëry to Silmaril (jewel of Fëanor) per Bolt II.
The blue lamps of the Noldor were discribed later when Beleg meets Gwindor and when Tour meets Arminas and Gelmir. Thus "Lamp of Eldamar" which is an proper update for "Lamp of Faëry" would be missleding in my view. But I am not sure if the phrase is still part of the (pruposed) text. Thus I can not look up the circumstances of its use, which I would like to know before we prupose a change. I am sure that the phrase was not often used even in TN. Thus I don't think it is wourth a discussion about a general change.

RD-38 Agreed. (But it seems I have missed RD-37.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Regarding RD-22
Lamp of Faëry to Silmaril (jewel of Fëanor) per Bolt II.

From The Book of Lost Tales II: The Nauglafring
Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it- and beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained undying glory by his deed; and he said: "Never have mine eyes beheld thee O Lamp of Faëry burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold and gems and the magic of the Dwarves"; and that necklace he caused to be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its power, but bore it with him back into the woods of Hithlum.

The blue lamps of the Noldor were discribed later when Beleg meets Gwindor and when Tour meets Arminas and Gelmir. Thus "Lamp of Eldamar" which is an proper update for "Lamp of Faëry" would be missleding in my view. But I am not sure if the phrase is still part of the (pruposed) text. Thus I can not look up the circumstances of its use, which I would like to know before we prupose a change. I am sure that the phrase was not often used even in TN. Thus I don't think it is wourth a discussion about a general change.

In view of the text, I would use the word Silmaril. I'm open to suggestions though.

Aiwendil, regarding this change:
Shouldn't this be Harathrad per a change made on the map and mentioned in "Of Maeglin" in XI?
Must the change be to Harathrad?
This text then becomes altogether illegible. At the mention of 'the last Ford over Gelion' he added a note that the name Sarn Athrad of this ford must be changed to Harathrad 'South Ford', 'in contrast to the much used northern ford where the river was not yet very swift or deep, nearly due east of Eöl's house (72 miles distant)'; and against Harathrad here he wrote Athrad Daer ('the Great Ford').
On another page the following names are proposed as replacements for Sarn Athrad: 'Athrad i-Nogoth [> Negyth] or Athrad Dhaer, "Ford of the Dwarves" or "Great Ford"'.
Couldn't it be also Athrad Daer too?

[Findegil]

If we change Gelion to Duin Dhaer than a change from Saranathrad to Athrad D(h)aer would look strange from me. But that is only a matter of taste. Nevertheless I wold rather take Athrad i-Negyth. Harathrad is clearly older than Athrad Daer, thus Athrad D(h)aer or Athrad i-Negyth are the possible names. But we do not know if Dhaer or Daer is the later. If Daer is later we have to change Gelion to Duin Daer.

Concerning the "Lamp of Faëry": Unfinished Tales; part I: The first age; chapter 1: Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin; Note 2:The blue-shining lamps of the Noldorin Elves are referred to elsewhere, though they do not appear in the published text of The Silmarillion. In earlier versions of the tale of Túrin Gwindor, the Elf of Nargothrond who escaped from Angband and was found by Beleg in the forest of Taur-nu-Fuin, possessed one of these lamps (it can be seen in my father's painting of that meeting, see Pictures by J. R. R. Tolkien, 1979, no.37); and it was the overturning and uncovering of Gwindor's lamp so that its light shone out that showed Turin the face of Beleg whom he had killed. In a note on the story of Gwindor they are called "Fëanorian lamps", of which the Noldor themselves did not know the secret; and they are there described as "crystals hung in a fine chain net, the crystals being ever shining with an inner blue radiance." Thus "Lamp of Fëanor" could be a good change.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros wrote:
Gelion to Duin Dhaer.

I had missed this entirely. I suppose we must implement this, though I can tell you it will take some getting used to.

Yes, as I have read it now it is ambiguous as to which is which so I think that I would rather say dwarves of Nogrod.

Then we are agreed on this.

Findegil wrote:
Thus I can not look up the circumstances of its use, which I would like to know before we prupose a change. I am sure that the phrase was not often used even in TN. Thus I don't think it is wourth a discussion about a general change.


Agreed - we can discuss when it comes up the text.

Maedhros wrote:
Couldn't it be also Athrad Daer too?

It looks like we have three names among which it's very difficult to choose: Harathrad, Athrad D(h)aer, and Athrad i-Negyth. I'm not sure that the name "Athrad Daer" invalidates "Harathrad" - in fact, one could suppose that all three names were used, "South Ford", "Great Ford", and "Ford of the Dwarves". But that's baseless speculation. I suppose we must go with either Athrad D(h)aer or Athrad i-Negyth to be safe. But which? There's almost nothing to push us either way. However, since it was "Athrad Daer" that was written against "Harathrad", and thus "Athrad D(h)aer" shows up more times than "Athrad i-Negyth" I would say that perhaps we should go with it.

That leaves us with the "Dhaer" vs. "Daer" question, and I can see no way of guessing which is later. Perhaps "Daer", since it shows up in "Duin Daer" as well, while "Dhaer" only appears once? I don't know.

I think we are agreed on the storyline, though. I do want to look it over when I get a chance, but I can think of no further problems at the moment.

[Maédhros]

Where are we right now then?

It seems that we have agreed on the most difficult points regarding the storyline. One would think that we would follow a very similar path like the one we used in the Fall of Gondolin, in which we took the later text Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin to the end and then we joined it with the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin.
In this particular case it would be the Wanderings of Húrin with the Tale of Turambar and the Tale of the Nauglafring, but unlike in our work with the Fall of Gondolin, it is a little different. In the Fall of Gondolin, the evolution of the characters didn't change that much as the story evolved contrary to that of the Tale of the Nauglafring. The elves of Gondolin, there is really not that big a difference between those in the Tale and those in later Tuor, while there is a huge difference between the "wood elves" in the Tale and the later "elves of Nargothrond". Also in the Tale Tinwelint has no treasure in comparison to the latter Thingol who does. The good thing however is that Thingol attitude hasn't changed much as the story changed over time.
I also wonder about the treasure of Nargothrond. In the Tale, a great deal of the treasure was of "unworked" gold but I wonder why that should be in our later story. At the time of the Tale, the Rodothlim were very different that the Elves of Nargothrond. Why would the later Elves of Nargothrond had a great part of their treasure in "unworked" gold if they were the same who brought from Valinor a greater part of their gems than any of the other Ñoldorian exiles?
From the Book of Lost Tales II: Tale of Turambar
In this passage is found (so far as written record goes, for it is to be remembered that a wholly erased text underlies the manuscript) the origin of Nargothrond, as yet unnamed. Among many remarkable features the chief is perhaps that Orodreth was there before Felagund, Lord of Caves, with whom in the later legend Nargothrond was identified, as its founder and deviser. (In The Silmarillion Orodreth was one of Finrod Felagund's brothers (the sons of Finarfin), to whom Felagund gave the command of Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion after the making of Nargothrond (p. 120), and Orodreth became King of Nargothrond after Felagund's death.) In the tale this cave-dwelling of exiled Noldoli is a simpler and rougher place
I don't think that matter of the treasure is a big deal, but it is something to be considered.

The question that now come is this:
How many details can we add from the Tale to our story?
Aiwendil, Findegil has proposed an addition of the last part of the attack of the sons of Fëanor with Dior, and I liked it a lot, I wonder what do you think about it and if we can get away with using that?

Because Findegil and me have worked in our versions of the story, we are in a way very advanced but I wonder which text will we use as our base text for the story now.

[Findegil]

Because Findegil and me have worked in our versions of the story, we are in a way very advanced but I wonder which text will we use as our base text for the story now. If we would now go back to your or to my version and take that up as a basis text, we would again be hard put to fight down details in favour of the established storylinie. Well, all that I did in this thread was meant to creat the basis text! I provided it in post #65. Since that, some emendations have been made in the following discussion, which we have to integrate.
The next step is to replace phrases and sentences of that basis text with more detailed material. The crux is now not to change the storyline by the exchange or adddition.
Thus the basis text is Q30 and we have to groups of changes RD-SL-zz for changes done to make the storylinie fit our understanding developed above and RD-EX-zz for expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed.

I have already started that process and will bring forth a text in the privat forum soon. In the moment I do not see how I can rip that text of enough content to post a version of it here in the public forum, but I will think about that when the text is complet (because I at least highly disire to make the discussion understandable for (interested) visitors).
Just to make Maédhros more confident with the process: I a sure you that I had your draft 4 in front of me when I search for possible addition. I do that work really by a comparison of three texts (not that easy to do): The text given in post #65 with the emendations discussed there after; Maédhros draft #4 and my owne version made in response to Maédhros draft #1. To make that comparison easier to follow, I did adopt the §-numbers form draft #1 (as I did in my version, but without each § mentioned that was droped or moved). In addition each change will be indicated by one of our "editorial markers" (RD-yy-zz).

So fare for the moment, and I now will go back to the work on the text.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.:I think we are agreed on the storyline, though. I do want to look it over when I get a chance, but I can think of no further problems at the moment. Aiwendil, I am not sure you will get that chance before we start the discussion about added details, but that does not hinder any part of the storyline to be discussed again if you find that it needs some further discussion and / or change. If you would rather like me to wait with the above promissed text, please make a remark here. I will not post the text before tomorrow and will chek her before posting.

[Aiwendil]

Go ahead and post it. I will, alas, be quite busy over the next few days and won't get much time to look things over.

Could we perhaps post the changes in the public forum by only indicating the beginning and end of extracts? For example, for a long insertion from TN:

Text from Q30 <TN Beginning of first sentence of extract . . . end of last sentence.> Text from Q30.

[Findegil]

I have posted the text in the privat forum. I stiked to the sections Maédhros has once made, even if they do not sweet my text very good.

A version for the public forum will follow as soon as I can manage to creat it. So please restrict yourself for a short time and start the discussion here in the public forum, after I posted the text here.
The public version will ofcourse not have a "cleaned" text and it will be much harder to follow. Therefore I would recommend the privat version to any member.

I am sure that not all my addtions to the text will make it to the final version, but I hope that my version does bring the project forward. At least the "cleaned" text should be a nice read.
So sit back, take some time and enjoy!

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Things worked out faster than I thought. The version for the public forum is also posted now. So please feel free to comment. Any discussion is awaited in happy expectancy.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I look forward to reading it as soon as I get a chance.

For the moment, though, one thing that occurred to me: If we change Gelion to Duin Daer, what is to be done with the name "Thargelion"? I can think of no reasonable way of replacing it, but I'm not sure that such a difficulty could be considered a valid case for rejecting the change and retaining "Gelion".

[Findegil]

The least we can do is take the other names of the land "Dor Caranthir" or Talath Rhûnen" at least we could use the discriptive translation "The Land beyond Duin Dear". The only problem would than be the one passage were all these names are given.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I don't mean to sound too insolent (as so far it has been the two of you that have done all the hard work for this section) - but do you think that perhaps we should discuss one subsection at a time, as we did for FoG? That would keep matters from getting too confusing, and would certainly make it easier for me to jump in and comment when I have a free moment (which is I think something that should happen tomorrow or Friday).

Findegil, I guess you're right about the alternate names for Thargelion. It seems a shame to lose a shade of meaning there, but I think we can live with it.

[Maédhros]

I don't mean to sound too insolent (as so far it has been the two of you that have done all the hard work for this section) - but do you think that perhaps we should discuss one subsection at a time, as we did for FoG? That would keep matters from getting too confusing, and would certainly make it easier for me to jump in and comment when I have a free moment (which is I think something that should happen tomorrow or Friday).
That is fine by me. Actually in the first part, I'm in almost complete agreement with what Findegil has done. I have only several little points here and there but nothing major in terms of the story. I think that you being the more apt in your ways with the english language would perhaps smooth out some of the ackwardness of parts of the text.
There are things that I think that you might make observations, so I'm glad to hear your opinons.

[Findegil]

I don't mean to sound too insolent (as so far it has been the two of you that have done all the hard work for this section) - but do you think that perhaps we should discuss one subsection at a time, as we did for FoG? That would keep matters from getting too confusing, and would certainly make it easier for me to jump in and comment when I have a free moment (which is I think something that should happen tomorrow or Friday). You don't sound insolent (but mighty buisy). Lets go through it begining to end start with "Húrin in Nargothrond" and comment on what ever diserves it. And we will go on to the next section when ever we all agree that the first is finished.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

but mighty buisy

Yes - applying to graduate schools is not something to be left to the end of the semester.

I've posted comments on the first section, though, and should be able to find a little more time for all this in the near future.

[Findegil]

Now I am myself the one to re-open the storyline discussion.
Aiwendil wrote:FD-SL-22: I wonder about using Mablung here. In the 77 he defends the Silmaril to the last, but as I recall I could find no precedent whatsoever for this in any of JRRT's writings. Your feeling that Mablung was problematic was very good, but you look in the wrong place for the reason of it. I had a similar feeling when I prepared the text of the expanded Version but did only search all the sources for the dad of Thingol to find the reason. Now at last I found it, when I re-read Ælfwine and Dírhaval for the post in the Myths Transformed thread.Here begins that tale which Ælfwine made from the Húrinien: which is the longest of all the lays of Beleriand now held in memory in Eressëa. But it is said there that, though made in Elvish speech and using much Elvish lore (especially of Doriath), this lay was the work of a Mannish poet, Dírhavel, who lived at the Havens in the days of Earendel and there gathered all the tidings and lore that he could of the House of Hador, whether among Men or Elves, remnants and fugitives of Dorlómin, of Nargothrond, or of Doriath. From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Androg who was in the outlaw-band of Turin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh. Otherwise all that time between the flight of Túrin from Doriath and his coming to Nargothrond, and Túrin's deeds in those days, would have remained hidden, save the little that was remembered among the people of Nargothrond concerning such matters as Gwindor or Túrin ever revealed. In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear. This lay was all that Dírhavel ever made, but it was prized by the Elves and remembered by them. Dírhavel they say perished in the last raid of the sons of Fëanor upon the Havens. … This is the first version of the introduction. In the second one it is Ælfwine himself not a later editor that does write and in that second version neither Mablung nor Andvír are mentioned. The question is now if we consider the information about Mablung (and Andróg) still valid after the perspective of the telling of the inroduction has changed the text.
After we have removed Ælfwine from our version we can not use either version of the introduction without any change, but it might be much easier to rework the first one than the second one. But that is not the issue here.

The question here is:
Do we consider Mablung alive in the days of Dírhaval (as he is named in the second version) or not? If we consider him alive, do we still see him as a part of the fatal hunting party of Thingol?

As a matter of fact I see even more need to change the details of Thingols death: to avoid another failure with Mablung I made in intens search and have read all scenes were he is named in The History of Middle-Earth. By that search I discoverde the follwing Note applied to the sentence of Thingols death beside Mablung in TN:Yet in the end were they all fordone, and Mablung and the king fell side by side -- but Naugladur it was who swept off the head of Tinwelint after he was dead, for living he dared not so near to his bright sword or the axe of Mablung.

Against this sentence my father wrote a direction that the story was to be that the Nauglafring caught in the bushes and held the king.Now we can consider the note to mean that Naugladur did sweep of Thingols head while he was alive but rendered helpless by the acrused Necklace clinging to some bushes or we considere it only a further detail of his death by someone else. But this is clearly a discussion about textual details that we will do in the thread "Ruin of Doriath - Attack on Menegroth"

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

After providing the facts in the last post, I will, after some thought, give away my oppinion about Mablung and the hunt:
For me the information that Mablung did survie to speak with Dírhaval at the Haevens is valid. With that it would be easiest to skip him from the hunt completly. But the easiest way is not the one I would go. He is Thingols chief thane and by his deads in the original Wolf-hunt I would find it strange if he would not have been there when the celebration hunt was so special in that year. Thus I think, if we let him take part in the hunt but mention that he was not with the small company that was lured outside the girdle we only make explicit what is to be expacted.

Looking at the note, I think that Naugaldur killed Thingol when he was bound by the Necklace. It was Tolkiens last (formulated) idea and it would make Melians and Berens acrusing Naugladur as a morderer more just. In addition it fits very well with the cruse of the Nauglamír and its effect in the fight of Beren and Naugladur.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

The question here is:
Do we consider Mablung alive in the days of Dírhaval (as he is named in the second version) or not? If we consider him alive, do we still see him as a part of the fatal hunting party of Thingol?

I think that the simplest change would be not to introduce parragraph 35, as I intended to do in the Attack on Menegroth discussion. So that we can be vague about the fate of Mablung.

[Aiwendil]

The story in "Aelfwine and Dirhavel" 1 that Mablung survived and came to the mouths of Sirion certainly supercedes the story in TN. And we have no later evidence that the story reverted to the earlier one. So I would say that in our version Mablung must be supposed to survive and make it to the havens.

In view of the invalidation of the story of Mablung as told in TN, my first inclination is to take Findegil's easy way out and leave him out of the hunt completely.

[Maédhros]

So, we all agree on Mablung it seems. Then I think that we can move foward to the next section.

[Findegil]

Okay, so we will take Mablung out of the hunt completly. I will provide a subtitution text for the scene later on. Hopefuly before we start with section 3.

I agree with Maédhros that section is done so fare and that we should go on with "Outlaws in Menegroth".

Respectfully
Findegil

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well, I'm hardly now more than a pest, and I must commend Findegil's editing. Perhaps, when my children are grown, I can delve into the textual nitty-gritty. Or, perhaps, I should try anyway, but in addition to my famous daughter, I am now blessed with Aidan son of Arthur. And, having now read the whole HoME, I can't think of a revised Silmarillion without the revised cosmology, which seems easier to rectify than some of things dealt with here.

In any event, allow me some concessions and arguments about what I had intended in response to Findegil. Also, I adjure all "Fan-Fiction," I don't even read it, but I am open-minded about the alternatives that exist for understanding JRRT's more general and allusional passages. We are not dealing with hard facts.

FD-SL-01 / Note 1: So we all agree that Húrin had a band with him. The Naming might be objectively wrong, but the cores of the group were the companions from Hithlum and Tolkien ever called them outlaws. Thus, I think we could use that name for Húrin following still.

"Outlaws" they are by convention; I was just commenting that it has a negative connotation that may be somewhat oppostional to JRRT's latest intent. More Robin-Hood-like outlaws might be more appropriate.

FD-SL-03 / Note 2: We could clearly give different accounts of Mîm's death in the way Man of the World suggested it. But if we do that as often as suggested we will break the narrative to peaces. And I don't think it is needed her. Q30 is the last source of the event, and even if the motives of Húrin are changed
we can still find good reasons for him not to promote or deal out Mîm's death.

Naturally, with agreement, the use of a single tradition is best. Having Mim's death occur contrary to Hurin's wishes is fine. Though after Wandering's I'd avoid ascribing any charity or mercy to Hurin, just that he might not have wanted Mim killed as such.

FD-SL-10 / Note 3: The fate of the outlaws is discussed already at length in this thread. And we all seem to agree that they could not overcome (at least not all) the cruse of Mîm. How we can make that clear in our text is the difficult part and can, as I think, only be worked out with the text-editing.

This is clearly difficult. The less said the better. It might be implied that some are more immediately affected, falling ill or mad along the road, per the lines from the original Tale of the Nauglafring and leave it at that.

FD-SL-05 / Note 4: I don't see the advantage in the storyline Man of the World suggested. Beside the fact that we have no source for it so that it would be pure fan-fiction, we would also ruin the gesture as in Q30 if Elves of Doriath would carry the treasure into the hall. If we are going to accept that awkwardness than we should use the story of Q30 because it would settle the fate of the outlaws nicely.

Granted, I was just musing about untold explanations. I do consider it implausible, however, that any more than a few of Hurin's companions, who reached Doriath, might have been allowed to actually enter therein. Assuming some of the treasure was lost along the way, I see no problem in assuming (however implicitly) that it got loaded on a few Sindarin wagons for final transport to Menegroth, but it should be indicated that more than the Nauglafring was delivered. Let's just assume that Hurin's men did the loading by his will. I would then edit things such that Hurin is alone or virtually alone when appearing before and bitterly mocking Thingol and Melian.

FD-SL-7 / Note 5: The healing of Húrin is, in my view, not in line with context of the tragedy call Narn. Beside that I even do not see the ability for Melian to do that. Could she have lifte the cruse than she would have done it earlier with Túrin, Morwen and Nienor who were all for some time under her protection. I think Húrin must depart in bitterness. Thus his free death in the western-sea, reported as a rumour, is much more likely.

First, I don't see Hurin's as free-death, but rather tragic suicide brought on by extreme mental anguish, which was not necessarily improved by knowing the truth. While it might not be retainable, I wouldn't be too sure that CT entirely made it up in terms of what Melian does, simply for lack of pertinent manuscript text. It makes sense. All she's doing for Hurin is subtly lifting a veil of deception.

I for one do not believe that his family was cursed by Morgoth in any particular way. Morgoth wot perhaps something of the fate that awaited them, and he actively influenced it further through both mystical powers and tangible actions, but they had the ability to control and moderate (though not conquer) such doom by being less prideful, impulsive and haughty. They remained true and faithful to the struggle, nevertheless, achieving more than some of the first-born, and are remembered by the Elves not only out of pity, but as great Elf-friends.

Hurin is too, and Morgoth's goal in showing him a distorted picture of his family's ill-fortune was to manipulate his bitterness. That such a bubble is so easily burst by Melian I find very fitting. Still, drop it if you think CT was off base.

FD-SL-14 to FD-SL-17 / Note 9: I agree with the statement of Man of the World, but to create a text for it we make this more difficult.

I am quite sure the texts exists in terms of Thingol's outrage and the dwarves expulsion without pay. Again, I was offering something about why this works that needn't be added, even if other existing texts are not used.

FD-SL-17 to FD-SL-19 / Note 10: Agreed in general, but I don't think the passage in The Hobbit can be read like Man of the World does read it. Even in the later position of Thranduils realm in north Mirkwood all his dwarven neighbours were of Dúrins house (Ered Mithrim, Erebor, Ered Engrin) in the former location in southern Mirkwood they were even nearer to the main city of Dúrins Folk. Thus if the family of Thorin was not involved in that incident than the passage must refer to some other realm.

No, I agree that when JRRT wrote The Hobbit he simply had in mind a dwarf-reformed version of The Tale of the Nauglafring/Quenta Noldorina. In the 1930s, JRRT might have even thought of Bilbo's Eriador as being under Gil-Galad's rule (the King) and maybe separated from the great Goblin Wars by a Millenium. Still, given later traditions regarding the vast intervening Second and Third Ages (over 6,000 years), I feel that speculation concerning vague texts allows one to think of Wood-Elves of that region having done business with a more easterly Dwarf House when the power of Durin's Folk had been in retreat at one time or another.

Also, in view of protest from someone else, I must say that Mim's murder cannot be used at all as a pretext by Great Dwarves. They clearly would have cared less about him.

FD-SL-23 / Note 11: I don't think that the girdle could be overcome by treachery at all, and I think Maedhros and Aiwendil agree with me in this point. What the Warriors of Doriath did protect were parts of Thingols realm not included in the Girdle, like Dimbar were Túrin and Beleg fought. People that were rescued from starving in the decides of the Girdle and let in by Elves like Beleg did with Túrin or like Húrin were, at least, thought of by Melian as being in freindly terms with Thingol. And they all were led in as "guarded guests". Clearly it is possible to tell a fan-fictional story were some Elves of Doriath feign to make the army of Naugladur prisoners and thus gained a passage for, but that would by fare beyond the border of the limits set by our rules. And in addition the Dwarves did not need some Elves to show them the way into Doriath, they had visited it many times before. But still JRR Tolkien wrote concerning the Dwarves: "Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army!"

I would agree that Doriath could not be directly penetrated, but much harm could be done to the borders, and what's to stop someone from burning and chopping the forests down as they go? Easily defended it was, but defended the woods needed to be.

FD-SL-20 / Note 12: It is nice to have someone on my side concerning the treachery of the Elves of Doriath, even if we do not agree in the way it affected the storyline.

I think it's important to retain some reference to the confusion and troubles of those days and not to let the Grey-Elves off too easily as immune to greed and the Doom of Mandos. But one could certainly dismiss treachery as an element in the Nogrodrim's victory.

FD-SL-21 / Note 13: What Man of the World did suggest her is not useable for the project as it is again hardly fashionable within the rules of the project.

Maybe. At the same time, I see the story of the Hunt as useless and unsustainable. I wouldn't refer to it at all. Why would Thingol be hunting beyond Doriath or the pedestrian Dwarves be able to intercept a hunting party? ... even if somehow informed of its general location.

Therefore, I'd succinctly go with the later reference of Thingol's being lured out beyond the Girdle, the only explanation being implied about his rage and carelessness in wanting to confront the Dwarves, who dared to wage war. Makes sense. Why would he just sit tight and let the Dwarves harry his borders? He's also easily incensed one gathers.

Let Mablung's fate stay unreported, though. The notion of treachery having played a role can simply be dismissed as a wicked rumor, that reflected only how the lies of Morgoth and the Doom of Mandos had indeed managed to enter into the hearts of the Doriathrim.

FD-SL-23 / Note 14: I agree on this point, but Maedhros still has an other view.

Once Thingol falls on the marches, his forces are scattered, his folk are in disarray, and I think there is only one logical move for the Melian of the later Silmarillion, which is to depert Middle-Earth forthwith. She doesn't belong there w/o Thingol,

FD-SL-23.5 / Note 15: Agreed on the first part, but I don't see why the dwarves would not be able for such violence as the ravening of Menegroth. The pitiless fight of the Dwarves against the Orks in the third age is an example for such violence on the side of the Dwarves.

I'm sure the Dwarves were capable of some mindless destruction and would have met some resistance. But they have one thing in their sights, and The Tale of the Nauglafring was written with decidedly evil Dwarves in mind, who were often as not allies with the goblins. And the Third-Age War with Orcs can hardly be compared with one against another Free People, with which the Dwarves had been allies in earlier Battles. I daresay only the Elves might attempt less than a pitiless war against Orcs.

FD-SL-23 / Note 16: Again I agree to Man of the World here but Maedhros seems to have still some objections.

Melian apparating to Ossiriand? Oh please!

Again, from what the eye catches I think fine work is going on, but a thin chapter it will remain. My compliments.

[Petty Dwarf]

All this work on Doriath looks fantastic, guys. You make it look like it could have been done in 1977.

[Arvegil145]

Can you explain me step by step Ufedhin was rejected?

Here is a passage from the Narn i-Chîn Húrin:

Therefore Beleg gladly became the guide of the wanderers, and he led them to a lodge where he dwelt at that time with other hunters, and there they were housed while a messenger went to Menegroth. And when word came back that Thingol and Melian would receive the son of Húrin and his guardians, Beleg led them by secret ways into the Hidden Kingdom.

The Girdle of Melian always seemed to me more as a labyrinth then a "force field".

Which led me to believe that a single Elf could guide the Dwarven army into Doriath following "Ariadne's thread".

Besides - why would the Dwarven army attack Doriath if they knew that it was protected by the Girdle? I would seem a bit idiotic.

[Findegil]

Ufedhin's rejection was not only conected to the gridle. Anyhow, if simple knowledge of a way through would have been enough to overcome its protection, the dwarves would not have needed any traitor, as they often had been welcomed guests in Menegroth.
Ufedhin was rejected because the majority of project members found it unprobable that there was a traitor from Doriath to the Dwarves at all.

I also imagin the gridle like to a Labyrinth. But more in the vain of the Old Forest east of the Shire: All ways you could find would lead you out again sooner or later. Only if you were a welcomed guest a way would open for you to go in, and even then it would probably be safer to have a guide.

And in thinking in that direction explains way many members found Ufedhin would not have been succesfull: Coming back with bad intetion against Doriath would lead the trees to force you out again equaly if you had know a former way in or not.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Perhaps. But why would the Dwarves decide to attack a kingdom which they knew was impenetrable?

[Arvegil145]

Also - the matter of Gereth and Evranin (and Nielthi).

You said that they are not valid Sindarin, but could they still be kept nonetheless? I hate losing material from the texts.

[Findegil]

On the one hand, it is not clear that Dwarves did know that a bad intention against the inhabitants would mean that they could not enter Doriath. And the implicit theory behind the Dwarven attack, was that they did know that Thingol would be at that time on his hunt to celebrate the Charcharoth-hunt and they would try and succed to lure him beyond his borders. Once they killed Thingol they tried (probably because they thought that he was responsible for it) and found that the girdle was removed and use that fact.

Gereth and Evranin and Nielthi: To include them would mean to change a fact in the Sindarin tongue as it was when Tolkien last worked on it. Our rules are strongly against it.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Hi all! This is my first post here, and I know I am quiiiite a bit late to the party! That being said, I just want to say, I am absolutely floored by the work that's been done on this chapter in particular, as out of the confusion and chaos has been created a flowing narrative that tells a compelling and vastly improved version of the story in the QS77.

My humble thoughts are almost certainly unwarranted, but I did have a few of them while reading through the text. Most of them are in regards to specific deletions or changes in the texts, as every story decision makes 100% sense to me.

The first one is a relatively minor point, as I assume it is a simple slip.

RD-EX-24 TN Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, the king was minded to hearken, and he bade gather it up and cast it into the stream before the gates. Yet even so he might not shake off its spell, and he said to himself: ‘First will I gaze my last upon its loveliness ere I fling it from me for ever.’ Therefore he let wash it clean of its stains of blood in clear waters, and display it before him. Now such mighty heaps of gold have never since been gathered in one place;

At that point, the version where the outlaws are killed has been rejected, so the gold would have no blood on it.

The second is also a minor point where I was confused:

RD-EX-31 <QS77 In those days the Dwarves still came on their journeys into Beleriand from their mansions in Ered Lindon, and passing over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] at {Sarn }Athrad[ Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}, they travelled the ancient road to Doriath; for their skill in the working of metal and stone was very great, and there was much need of their craft in the halls of Menegroth. But they came now no longer in small parties as aforetime, but in great companies well armed for their protection in the perilous lands between Aros and {Gelion}[Duin Daer] RD-EX-32 {; and they dwelt in Menegroth at such times in chambers and smithies set apart for them}. At that{ very} time great craftsmen of Nogrod RD-EX-33 {were lately come}came into Doriath{; and}[ at] the King’s { therefore summoning them } summons, and he declared to them his desire>.

why are the Dwarves changed from being there to being summoned?

The next point is a very minor instance of awkward phrasing:

RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were more wondrous>.

"were more wondrous" than what? the previous treasure? the use of the comparative "more" here implies a comparison, but none is given. Maybe, "more wondrous than had been thought."

The next is a simple question I had about a name deletion. I know that many of the hastily mentioned Elvish characters had their names removed bc of linguistic issues, but in this passage:

RD-SL-19 <TN Now even as those aged ones sat in their dark halls and gnawed their beards, behold a sound of horns, and messengers were come from {Bodruith of the Indrafangs, a kindred of the Dwarves that dwelt in other realms}.

why was Bodruith removed? Even if this name is not good Sindarin, it does not need to be. We know that the Dwarves took outer names in the language of the people near to their dwellings, and for Belegost this is Ossiriand, Celegrorm, and the lands of Eriador where Nandor and Men live. the name could easily be Nandorin, which would explain the phonetic similarity to Sindarin, while still allowing for an "impossible" Sindarin name form. To delete it anyway seems odd to me.

The next is a question regarding a theme in the Lost Tales that was abandoned largely in later writings:

[b] RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth].

Is this in keeping with Tolkien's later views on the Dwarves? I know some were considered evil, but Thorin dwelt in the Ered Luin near the ruins of Nogrod and Belegost, and these Dwarves were never remotely in league with the Orcs.

The next is a simple grammatical point:

RD-EX-60 Now {is} [when] the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} [grew] faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} [sat] in her bower and foreboding {is} [was] in her heart and eyes.

the "when" in the first line is grammatically incorrect. Leaving it out fixes the sentence.

The next is a terminology that seems suspect to me in the context of the later legendarium:

RD-EX-67 <TN {and Auredhir was} And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his} [their] forefather Beren, and all loved {him} [them], yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinúviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>

I hardly think "Elwing the fairy" is fitting terminology for an Elf queen. Maybe Elwing the Fair?

The next is a minor question:

RD-EX-79 <TN {But} [And] the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on {for ever} above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now is the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none seek the treasure that {it}[Ascar] guards [near by] nor dare ever to cross the{ magic} stream [of Duin Daer] at that enchanted place.

the last bit describes a present state, when by the third age Duin Daer is long gone and the ford lost beneath the waves, as Lindon is not all of Ossiriand, unless my geography is mistaken.

That was everything I saw, besides a few minor spelling mistakes. I'm honestly still blown away by the amount of work this took, and the cohesion and near perfection of the final product. This is truly a testament to the love people have for these stories.

[Findegil]

First of all: Welcome to this quite corner of the Barrow-Downs!

Thanks for your thoughts. I will comment on them as I can:
RD-EX-24: I do not remember if we discussed about the blood or if I only thought about it. My idea for keeping was that the gold could well have been stained with blood during the plundering of Nargothrond and that neither Mîm nor Húrin's band would have taken upon themselves the cleaning work.

RD-EX-31: As far as I remember we could not find any source beside QS77 that in which the Dwarves were already present at Menegroth when Húrin brought the treasure. In such cases we tend to us the information of other sources.

RD-EX-39: Good catch. The original text was: 'for the things the Nauglath had made were more wondrous far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the Rodothlim wrought of old.' In the new context of the Noldor from Nargothrond such comparision seems impossible. I think we should simply skip the 'more':§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were{ more} wondrous>. ...

RD-SL-19: Bodruith was exactly removed because of its meaning. Aiwendil worte:Bodruith: I remember now my objection to the name. According to "Names in the Lost Tales" in II, GL glosses "bodruith" as "revenge". Christopher Tolkien speculates (quite plausibly, I think) that the Lord of Belegost received this name as a result of his actions in TN. Since this part has been removed from our version, I would drop the name.

RD-EX-54: I think that it is out of question that the actions of the Dwarves of Nogrod in the Fall of Doriath brought about a long lasting estrangement between the Dwarves and the Elves in general. In a simple black and white world view that does mean that they were afterwards nearer to a friendship with Morgoth following. This becomes even more true considering that later we learn that some of the eastern houses of the Dwarves joined Sauron in the Second Age. Nogord is later never really mentioned. So we can not be sure of its later attitude against Morgoth/Sauron or the Elves. The attitude of the House of Durin against the Sauron is not relevant in this case, since the sentence is more general. Beside that the caves that Thrain and Thorin used in their Exile were north of the gulf of Luhn, which means that they were in Belegost territory and not in Nogrod territory. And we have added that the Belegost Dwarves were in opposition to the revenge plans of Naugladur.

RD-EX-60: Good catch. But the cure is not so easy since Maedhros and I felt that he 'when' is needed. See the discussion of that here: Ruin of Doriath - Attack on Menegroth (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=4406)
Nonetheless I agree that we should change the sentence. What about:§311 (§37b) RD-EX-60 {Now is}When the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow}grew faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sat in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. ...

RD-EX-67: Very good catch. I agree that 'fairy' can not stand in our Version. But I have to look into the original text in the book if that is a real change or if we have here the kind of typo that I named 'scanos'. I expect that this might be the case, since 'Elwing the fair' is used later on and 'Elwing the fairy' sounds strange to me even in the context of The Lost Tales.

RD-EX-79: Again very true. I suppose we change it to:[qoute]§330 (§51b) RD-EX-79 <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on {for ever} above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now {is}was the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none {seek}sought the treasure that {it}[Ascar] {guards}guarded [near by] nor {dare}dared ever to cross the{ magic} stream [of Duin Daer] at that enchanted place.[/Quote]

Posted by ArcusCalion:That was everything I saw, besides a few minor spelling mistakes.In the last years I have become a kind of text keeper for this project and as such I am of course interested in these 'minor spelling mistakes' as well. So please come back to me with them either by posting them here or by Private Message or by email, whatever you prefer.

In the name of all that participated in the project so far, I would like to thank you for your compliments. I hope honestly that your enthusiasm may wake up the interest in the project by some former contributors or new once. Anyhow I am this time inclined to guide and enhance the new impulse in a different and hopefully more effective way then I did when Arvegil145 or Gothmog, LoB stirred the quite of this Barrow. So guys, if you are still around, take a look, probably the time has come for some progress.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Thanks for looking them over!

RD-EX-24: it seemed discordant to me when I read it, as the blood on the gold is not mentioned previously. Maybe insert the line about the goldbeing drenched in blood into the killing of Mim? For example:

§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: >RD-EX-11.5b QS77 'Then you shall enjoy your inhertiance no longer,{' said Húrin; '}for I am Húrin son of Galdor, returned out of Angband, and my son was Túrin Turambar, whom you have not forgotten; and he it was that slew Glaurung the Dragon, who wasted these halls where now you sit; and not unkown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'>
§278 (§6) <TT But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed.> TT<‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life{.},'>RD-EX-11.51b<editorial bridge said Húrin. <TN {but} But the {king's} hall ran with {gore} [the blood of Mîm], and the gold that lay {before his throne} [there] {scattered and spurned by trampling feet} was drenched with blood.>

incidentally, the word "inheritance" and the word "unknown" in the first paragraph are two of the minor spelling mistakes I mentioned.

RD-EX-31: Ah I see, this makes sense.

RD-EX-39: Your suggestion is perfect.

RD-SL-19: Ah, ok I get it.

RD-EX-54: Gotcha. I missed the Belegost/Nogrod distinction, and you're right.

RD-EX-60: Your suggestion remains a sentence fragment, grammatically. The "when" begins a subsidiary clause, but then the "but" cuts off any primary clause from forming. Removing the "but" would not work tho, as it conveys an essential sense of contrast between the two phrases. Perhaps:

RD-EX-60 Now {is} [when] the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} [grew] faint in the deep forest, {but Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} sat in her bower {and} foreboding {is} [was] in her heart and eyes.

RD-EX-67: that is how it is written in the book itself.

RD-EX-79: perfect!

As for the minor spelling mistakes, two I have already mentioned above, and the others are not numerous:

[b]RD-EX-42 <TN {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world but it had a magic power, and there was, no throat so great or so slender whereon it sat not with grace and loveliness.

there is a superfluous comma after the was.

§316 (§43a) TN Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the {River Gelion}[Duin Daer], where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], {sons}son of Fëanor. To the south of those lands between the {river Gelion}[Duin Daer] and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, {Gelion}[Duin Daer], Ascar, Thalos, Legolin, Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant.

I do not know if this is simply a typo, but when listing the names of the rivers, there should be an "and" before Adurant. I cannot find the source of the passage in the TN, so I cannot tell if it was a "scano"

I am eager to put a lot of work into helping you with this Findegil! This has been a dream of mine since I first read the Book of Lost Tales in middle school. What section remains in need of editing work? or has everything been finalized, and new sections needed?

[Findegil]

RD-EX-24: I see your point. But the addition you made will not go. If the blood is a problem it has to go:§292 (§23) RD-EX-24 TN Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, the king was minded to hearken , and he bade gather it up and cast it into the stream before the gates. Yet even so he might not shake off its spell, and he said to himself: ‘First will I gaze my last upon its loveliness ere I fling it from me for ever.’ Therefore he let wash it clean of its stains{ of blood} in clear waters, and display it before him. ...

RD-EX-60: Your Suggestion sounds good, we will take it.

RD-EX-67: In that case I think the safest way is simply to skip 'the fairy':... RD-EX-67<TN {and Auredhir was}And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his}their forefather Beren, and all loved {him}them, yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing{ the fairy} have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinúviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>

Thanks for pointing me to the misspellings, I corrected them. The last is interesting. I have no idea how, but the source information is weired. The passage is from the basic text, which is The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30). And the coma is in the original text. So I would consider the change to 'and' stylistic, which we avoided so far.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I had only a few notes on this chapter, and from the way they are written it seems clear that I had intended to go back and provide more detailed comments and writing them up better before posting them here, but here they are.


§37a (§20) - reads terribly as it stands (also an extra ‘and’).

RD-EX-61.2: Better to keep original word order with ‘did she know’ rather than ‘she did know’.

§43a (§27): ‘Dwarfroad’ should be ‘Dwarf-road’.
‘Amrod’ should be ‘Amros’.

RD-EX-79: Present tense at end. Also, why [near by]?

RD-EX-81: Really think we should consider removing Melian’s warning.

Last sentence: ‘Wending to one strand’ in LT makes sense because Ruin of Doriath comes after Gondolin. I think we should remove the sentence or move it to the Fall of Gondolin.

[Findegil]

§37a (§20): Please specify a bit more what is not okay.

RD-EX-61.2: Agreed.

§43a (§27): I corrected Dwarf-road. But from Shibboleth we learn that 'Amord' would have been the translation of Ambarto. And that is the name that Feanor gave to his son instade of Umbarto 'Fated' that Nerdanel gave. So Amrod is burned with the ships, while Amros lifed.

RD-EX-79: The present tens is corrected. [near by] was added because the treassure was drowned actively by the Nandor-Elves of Beren in Ascar and the Great Ford leads over Duin Daer not over Ascar.

RD-EX-81: Why? The warning perfectly fits the warning to Thingol. And how else would we think Melian could react?

Last sentence: I don't think we should change this. It is a forward reference. But that isnot uncommon.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

§37a (§20): I honestly have no recollection of what I objected to here, but I will review the section tonight or tomorrow.

§43a (§27): I corrected Dwarf-road. But from Shibboleth we learn that 'Amord' would have been the translation of Ambarto. And that is the name that Feanor gave to his son instade of Umbarto 'Fated' that Nerdanel gave. So Amrod is burned with the ships, while Amros lifed.

Right - so the one mentioned here, whose hunting ground is in eastern Beleriand, should be Amros, no? In the text I have it is Amrod, but he never entered Beleriand as he burned with the ships.

RD-EX-81: Why? The warning perfectly fits the warning to Thingol. And how else would we think Melian could react?

Yes, I think I've changed my mind again and agree with you.

Last sentence: I don't think we should change this. It is a forward reference. But that isnot uncommon.

I still think the sentence isn't fitting here. In the Lost Tales, this final sentence directly sets up the next tale, the Tale of Earendel, the "one strand" that the tale has wended to. With our ordering of the chapters, the tale has not in fact "wended to one strand" until the exiles of Gondolin reach the mouths of Sirion. So I'm fairly set on removing this sentence here. However, I would have no problem with transplanting it to the end of the Fall of Gondolin.

[Findegil]

Okay, Amros seems to be a general change that I did do through all texts.

If you are adamant on removing the last sentence, I agree to it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

§37a: I think my main problem with this section is still the insertion of the note from the Tale of Years, which was obviously never intended to stand in any narrative, and sounds out of place. I also think the insertion from note 12 to the TN is a little clumsy. I propose:


§310 (§37a) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms {and Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}for they {contrived it that Thingol is} lured him outside {or induced to go to war beyond} his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain. Yet in the end were they all fordone, and {Mablung and} the king[‘s thanes] fell{ side} by[ his] side - but RD-SL-23 <TN, Note 12 {Against this sentence my father wrote a direction that the story was to be that} the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] caught in the bushes and held the king>, and Naugladur it was who then swept off the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] {after he was dead}, for {living}[so long as Thingol could fight] he dared not so near to his bright sword{ or the axe of Mablung}.>


I've done two things here:

- The TY note presents two options: that Thingol was lured outside his borders or that he was induced to go to war beyond his borders. It reads poorly to keep both these alternatives, but hitherto we did so in the interest of ambiguity and not "inventing" definite facts. However, it now seems to me that in our version, where this all occurs after Thingol has gone out hunting, the second alternative is impossible. That is, if Thingol was "induced to go to war", he would not have ridden beyond the Girdle with just a "small company of arms"; he would have gone back first to Menegroth, raised a war band, and then gone forth. Therefore, I think we should eliminate the alternative and merely say that he was lured outside.

- It seems to me to make more sense to insert note 12 to TN before we say that Naugladur swept the king's head off, instead of adding it afterward as a retroactive explanation. Not a big point, but I think it reads much better this way.

One small point - in "Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees", I'm not sure I understand why "there" was removed.

[ArcusCalion]

agreed this reads much more smoothly, anbd I actually had the same qualm recently about the two alternatives when I was making my "clean" copy.

[Findegil]

I do not fully agree to this. I find your first change to heavy. So what about:§310 (§37a) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms {and Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}for they contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside {or induced to go to war }beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain. Yet in the end were they all fordone, and {Mablung and} the king[‘s thanes] fell{ side} by[ his] side - but RD-SL-23 <TN, Note 12 {Against this sentence my father wrote a direction that the story was to be that} the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] caught in the bushes and held the king>, and Naugladur it was who swept off the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] {after he was dead}, for {living}[so long as Thingol could fight] he dared not so near to his bright sword{ or the axe of Mablung}.>
The 'there' in 'Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, ...' was removed, because otherwise there would be two sentence one after the other with 'there' in it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I think this suggestion is good, except that "outside" and "beyond" are redundant. So:

§310 (§37a) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms {and Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}for they contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside {or induced to go to war beyond} his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain. Yet in the end were they all fordone, and {Mablung and} the king[‘s thanes] fell{ side} by[ his] side - but RD-SL-23 <TN, Note 12 {Against this sentence my father wrote a direction that the story was to be that} the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] caught in the bushes and held the king>, and Naugladur it was who swept off the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] {after he was dead}, for {living}[so long as Thingol could fight] he dared not so near to his bright sword{ or the axe of Mablung}.>

And now that you point it out, I agree about deleting "there".

[Findegil]

Okay, looks good.

Respectfully
Findegil