* *A New Project ~~~ Revising the Ainulindale* *

[lindil]

Project members [and bold guests!] can post their initial brainstorming re: the Ainulindale here, until such time as the Drafting really gets going.

For those interested in possibly joining the project please do not post here ! Instead please see the **General Comments and sign-up thread** [ and of course the **FAQ/Intro to the project** 'thread' at the top of the forum] for more details about how to go about becoming a project member.

Do note however that this project of the 'Council for the Creation of a Revised Silmarillion' was inaugarated specifically to facillitate the incorpoaration of newer members [as the FOG project had become more or less too complex for many new members to jump right into].

Perhaps someone who has already chewed on the Ainulindale can post a summary of what we are likely to be looking at in terms of possible changes to the final Flat World HoME X and Silm 77/01 texts?

[ January 02, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[HerenIstarion]

The main idea so far is that flat earth should be kept, with a possible footnote that "thus was known to men, but eldar knew better", since it would keep the trees and all the rest. More to come [I hope] soon

[Aiwendil]

I've just had a look over the Ainulindale texts in HoMe X, and I think that only very minor emendations will be needed. I think that we should basicly use the Ainulindale D text with all the latest corrections and changes. The only two real questions I can see are these: what to do with the Pengolod-Aelfwine framework, and whether to make certain small adjustments to tense and restorations of one or two bits that may have been left out from Ainulindale C.

[lindil]

One other general issue which may come up here, or at the latest by the Valaquenta is the question of inserting details and elaborations from older texts.

This is not so much a problem with the FoG as we have to rely on BoLT to even write it, but with the early Silm chapters and such were JRRT had in many cases already expanded his HoME V era work, what are we to do about adding in say details from the making od the Sun and the Moon? this may or may not come up as regards the Ainulindale, but an overview of the Silmarillions from HoME and later may provide some interesting and relevant expansions.

[HerenIstarion]

Sun and Moon Question

maybe again both "mannish" (leaves of the trees) and "elvish" (actual planet and star (as a footnote maybe)) versions can be given?

[fredd2332]

Hi, all...Thanks for having me.

Let me jump in with my thoughts....Although, the round earth version was intriguing, and fits with the "real world", by including a footnote, Ii think, would invalidate later stories where the earth is finally made round. I think we should just except the world was flat and forget about modern science. If we not that the elves knew the world was always round (as science has shown us) then would be mave to put footnotes that dragons, etc, never existed? Maybe I am not wording this right, but basically, lets not try to fit the stories into the "real world". You could always add an appendix at the end, that there were conflicting stories (from some other ancient source.) and add the myth transformed as well as any other writings that don't quite fit.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

BTW, Let me introduce myself. I am Frank. I don't have a cool elf nickname, but I have been reading Tolkien since the late 80's. I may not be a Tolkien scholar, but I pationate about his work.

[Aiwendil]

I'm also strongly inclined to do only a flat earth version. I fear two problems may arise from trying to do both. The first is simply that we would have twice as much work to do and would be forced to divide our time and effort. The second, and more serious, is that consideration of a round earth version may lead to complications for us in the flat earth version. Many other issues that are only tangentially related to the round vs. flat issue would fall into question. A round earth version would end up being a completely independent project, requiring rewrites of every chapter; and it would be hopelessly contradictory with the flat earth version in many respects.

[lindil]

As jallanite stated [ a former project leader and Moderator] this is to be a "Sun and Moon were fruit and flower" version.

I think all of the principle players in this endeavor have been in agreement re; this being a Flat Earth Silmarillion revision. Not that we are against a round world version, but everyone i know who has loked at it [ with the notable exception of Saulotus/bobwehad...] thinks far to much violence is done to the remaining early chapters of the Silmarillion.

JRRT simply did not give us enough textual material to flesh out the many needed changes.

So I think we are on solid ground by stating unequivocably that the current revisions are all Flat-Earth versions. This
does not mean that relevant details or passages [ that are not themselves Round world] from a Round-Earth text could not be incorporated into one of our revsions.

[Maédhros]

I wanted to bring this up. From the Book of Lost Tales I: The Music of the Ainur
The idea of Elvish rebirth in their own children is here formally stated, and the different fates of Elves and Men. In this connection, the following curious matter may be mentioned. Early in the text just given (p. 50) occurs the sentence: 'It is said that a mightier [music] far shall be woven before the seat of Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End', and in the concluding sentence of the text: 'Yet while the sons of Men will after the passing of things of a certainty join in the Second Music of the Ainur, what Ilúvatar has devised for the Eldar beyond the world's end he has not revealed even to the Valar, and Melko ю has not discovered it.' Now in the first revision of the Ainulindalë (which dates from the 1930s) the first of these sentences was changed to read: '... by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days', whereas the second remained, in this essential, unchanged. This remained the case right through to the final version. It is possible that the change in the first passage was unintentional, the substitution of another common phrase, and that this was never subsequently picked up. However, in the published work (pp. 15, 42) I left the two passages as they stand.
My question is, can it be that it was a slip, that is was only the Sons of Men that will join with the Ainur in the Second Music. I mean, if the Valar don't know the fate of Elves, how would they know that the Elves too in conjuction with Men would sing too with the Ainur at the End? It seems kind of weird to me.

[Findegil]

Yes, I think it was a slip only. If the Elves did know what Eru had planed for them after the end of Arda, than what is all Finrods talk about the slowfooted hunter in the Athrabeth about?
And his estel pictures some othing else than singing with the Ainur.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I think it was quite likely a slip of the pen, though it's also quite possible that Tolkien was reconsidering the fate of the Elves. I'm a bit wary about changing it. Anyway, "Children of Iluvatar" could refer to both Elves and Men, or it could refer just to Men. If, for example, I say "Elves", I could be referring to all Elves, or to some specific Elves, or to a group or type of Elves. The text as published, then, has the virtue of ambiguity.

[Maédhros]

I think it was quite likely a slip of the pen, though it's also quite possible that Tolkien was reconsidering the fate of the Elves. I'm a bit wary about changing it. Anyway, "Children of Iluvatar" could refer to both Elves and Men, or it could refer just to Men. If, for example, I say "Elves", I could be referring to all Elves, or to some specific Elves, or to a group or type of Elves. The text as published, then, has the virtue of ambiguity.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm. So, when Tolkien refers to the Children of Ilúvatar, do you think he refers only to Men or to both Elves and Men?

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I think he refers to Elves and Men. So the Orc's multiplaction like of the manner of the children of Illuvutar, means they reproduced like Elves AND Men.

[Eruhen]

Aren't the Children explicitly referred to in the Aiunlindalë as being Elves and Men, since none of the Ainur had any part in their making?

Also, as has been stated before, using a flat-world version would avoid all the difficulties that would arise from having Arda round from the beginning, most notably the drowning of Numenor and the removal of Valinor from the circles of the world and all the associated events.

[Aiwendil]

I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. There is no question that "Children of Iluvatar" refers to Elves and Men. My point was that, in this specific instance, the contradiction between the two statements in the Ainulindale can be somewhat artificially resolved by seeing "Children of Iluvatar" as ambiguous. It need not refer to all the Children of Iluvatar. This is a very forced explanation, but it does mean that we can't simply rule out the possibility of leaving the two seemingly contradictory statements as they are.

[Maédhros]

There is no question that "Children of Iluvatar" refers to Elves and Men. My point was that, in this specific instance, the contradiction between the two statements in the Ainulindale can be somewhat artificially resolved by seeing "Children of Iluvatar" as ambiguous.
I think that in that instance the Children of Ilúvatar refers only to Men. Do most or all the members think that it refers to Men too?
If we think that the statement refers to Men, why the usage of the Term Children of Ilúvatar (that comprises Elves and Men) be used. Isn't that complicating the interpretation of the Ainulindalë?
I agree with the conception of a flat earth too.

[Eruhen]

I think that in that instance the Children of Ilúvatar refers only to Men. Do most or all the members think that it refers to Men too?


In this instance, it seems to refer only to Men. But, since Tolkien never revised it, even through the final edition, I would personally be kind of leery of changing it to just something like "Children of Men". However, this may just be my random bursts from not doing my homework. I'm going to go home and read BoLT and QS77.

I have a feeling that this debate is going to continue for a veeeerrrry long time, just like every other discussion on this site.

[lindil]

that's what votes are for smilies/cool.gif

[Inderjit Sanghera]

In my humble opinion, the round earth mythology should be kept, along with the creation of the Sun and the Moon prior to the making of the two trees. I want this, because I feel that the coming of men should be put further back, due to the inconstancies of some the time period between man’s awakening and their excavation to Beleriand, some 310 years, in which quite a few years have to go by for man to initially explore the earth, to meet and be corrupted by Melkor, and for some of them to revolt against this. 310 years, is in my opinion wholly unsatisfactory, assuming they awoke at the rising of the sun.
So, the Valar could remove to Valinor and Varda could construct her dome around Aman, thus blocking out the tarnished sun, but Aman cannot be light be stars only, thus the need for the two trees. Varda, said to have the ‘greatest knowledge of the music’ (Well, her Manwe and Mandos) must sense the fact that the Elves must awake soon, and she could construct some new constellations, whilst Manwe blows away the clouds/mists of Melkor and the elves awake. But, what I want to know is where men got the whole sun/moon mythology from? Why would the Noldor lie to them? But, if the majority of the board is for the Trees-> Sun/Moon idea I will agree to that.
We should get rid of the whole Pengolod/Aelfwine framework, since it simply clogs up the story, and it would be easier to read with without Pengolod saying “And, so Aelfwine”, or something like that every so often. So it should be in the style of the Silmarillion. If we are following the Ainulindale D version, then one notable correction is to change Eru’s words, form the “halls of Aman” to the halls of Ea”, something that Christopher Tolkien picked up on. Also, what should Orome’s horns be named-Valaroma or Rombaras?

[Eru]

So, the Valar could remove to Valinor and Varda could construct her dome around Aman, thus blocking out the tarnished sun, but Aman cannot be light be stars only, thus the need for the two trees. Varda, said to have the ‘greatest knowledge of the music’ (Well, her Manwe and Mandos) must sense the fact that the Elves must awake soon, and she could construct some new constellations, whilst Manwe blows away the clouds/mists of Melkor and the elves awake.

where did you get this version? what tarnished sun? man, i really need to get more books, or something. anyways, never have i found anything refering to a tarnished sun, nor the sun and moon coming before the trees.

EDIT: can some of you give me your AIM names if you have them? i would like to discuss things with people over AIM too.

EDIT 2: If this in anyway helpful (not really), i just realized that i have have read BoLT 1 & 2 (own them in fact), and personally, they just don't fit in with the sil and all the other works of tolkien. he had Beren as a gnome for ..... ahh!!!!!! sorry. anyways, when is anybody gonna post here?

[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Eru ]

[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Eru ]

[Aiwendil]

I am copying the parts of the Ainulindale discussion from the private forum that do not relate specifically to the text posted there. That discussion should really take place here.

Maedhros: I think that this have been discussed earlier, but all of the references of Ælfwine, Eriol had been discarded. So this must means that Rúmil must go too. If you are a lover of Book of Lost Tales, it's a shame, but I think that it's necessary.

§10, it says that:


quote:
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Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them;
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How could the Ainur be afraid, when later in the Quenta Silmarillion, it states that Melkor was the only Vala that knew fear.
§8, it says:


quote:
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In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved
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Does this means that the Ainur had some place to dwell then. Certainly Halls of Ilúvatar is not the same as the Void, or is it?
From this note it seems that they are a different thing:

quote:
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But it is perfectly explicit that the Ainur, created by Iluvatar (§1), dwelt in 'fair regions' that Ilúvatar had made for them (§10); some of them remained 'beyond the confines of the World' (§21)
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§4 it says:


quote:
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Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days.
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You have heard this complaint of mine before, but I still think that Children of Ilúvatar means only Men and not Elves and Men.

Eru: I think that this have been discussed earlier, but all of the references of Ælfwine, Eriol had been discarded. So this must means that Rúmil must go too. If you are a lover of Book of Lost Tales, it's a shame, but I think that it's necessary.

§10, it says that:


quote:
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Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them;
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How could the Ainur be afraid, when later in the Quenta Silmarillion, it states that Melkor was the only Vala that knew fear.
§8, it says:


quote:
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In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Does this means that the Ainur had some place to dwell then. Certainly Halls of Ilúvatar is not the same as the Void, or is it?
From this note it seems that they are a different thing:

quote:
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But it is perfectly explicit that the Ainur, created by Iluvatar (§1), dwelt in 'fair regions' that Ilúvatar had made for them (§10); some of them remained 'beyond the confines of the World' (§21)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

§4 it says:


quote:
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Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days.
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You have heard this complaint of mine before, but I still think that Children of Ilúvatar means only Men and not Elves and Men.

Maedhros: Eru, I'm a little confused about your statement concerning the fear of the Ainur. Are you saying that we should changed the word afraid to something else?
Also, if there are no objections, I will use another color (yellos) to differentiate the parts concerning Ælfwine and Rúmil, as per acordance that they are no longer part of the Ainulindalë.
P.S. It's been very quiet this discussion.

Eru: Eru, I'm a little confused about your statement concerning the fear of the Ainur. Are you saying that we should changed the word afraid to something else?
Also, if there are no objections, I will use another color (yellos) to differentiate the parts concerning Ælfwine and Rúmil, as per acordance that they are no longer part of the Ainulindalë.
P.S. It's been very quiet this discussion.

Aiwendil: Maedhros: I wonder if this discussion should perhaps take place in the public forum? That would certainly maximize input.

quote:
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I think that this have been discussed earlier, but all of the references of Ælfwine, Eriol had been discarded. So this must means that Rúmil must go too. If you are a lover of Book of Lost Tales, it's a shame, but I think that it's necessary.
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I am just the slightest bit hesitant about this, since Aelfwine did indeed appear in a number of late writings. But certainly there is a preponderance of evidence showing that he must go. So I agree with this deletion.


quote:
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How could the Ainur be afraid, when later in the Quenta Silmarillion, it states that Melkor was the only Vala that knew fear.
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This is a very good question, but not, I think, one that need concern us overmuch. There are a few possible solutions, though each, I think, is a bit of a stretch. First of all, it's possible that "the Ainur" refers not to all the Ainur, but to the majority of them. In this case, it might not include those that later became the Valar. Second, it's possible that the statement that Melkor was the only Vala who knew fear describes the state of affairs in Arda, and does not proclude the Valar being afraid before the creation of Arda (i.e., before they were "Valar"). Third, it's possible, as Eru pointed out, that "fear" means something subtly different in the two instances. It's even conceivable that the hypothetical Quenya original used two different words, but the translator (Aelfwine, or Bilbo, or whoever) failed to retain the distinction.

Of course, all of these are rather artificial answers, and none can be taken as "true" with anything like validity. The fact of the matter is that we have an apparent contradiction within the text.

But, again, I don't think that this should concern us. We ought, I think, merely to let it stand. Our task is not to edit, revise, or correct JRRT's extant texts. We may - indeed we must - reconcile contradictions that occur between different texts. But in this case, the contradiction is entirely self-contained and has no bearing on any other textual decisions. On top of that, we simply have no good way of resolving the contradiction. Eru suggests replacing "fear" in the first instance with "bewildered" or something similar. But in this case, we are deciding in favor of the "subtle distinction" rationalization, and we might as well just leave "fear" and rationalize it the same way.


quote:
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Does this means that the Ainur had some place to dwell then. Certainly Halls of Ilúvatar is not the same as the Void, or is it?

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As above, I think that this is a good question but one that we need not be concerned with. I always imagined, though, that the halls of Iluvatar were indeed a physical place distinct from the void that surrounded them. Both void and halls were "beyond the confines of the world"; i.e., beyond the confines of Arda.

A more difficult puzzle is the relation between Arda, Ea, and the Void, particularly the reference to Arda being placed "amidst the innumberable stars". There is, as I believe Christopher points out, no good way to reconcile this with the view that the stars are drops of light in some kind of celestial dome. But that's simply the way the Ainulindale is, and I think that again we should follow Christopher's precedent and not adjust the text.


quote:
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You have heard this complaint of mine before, but I still think that Children of Ilúvatar means only Men and not Elves and Men.
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Correct me if I'm wrong (I unfortunately don't have the books with me at the moment), but my understanding of the concern here is that "Children of Iluvatar" may have been a transcription error in D for "Children of Men" in C. This is, in my opinion, the only valid justification for making an alteration. If Tolkien intended "Children of Iluvatar", then we have no right to change it. The only question, then, is whether it was an error. I am of the opinon that it most likely was not - he tended to be very attentive to such details as this, and usually any such change was rather premeditated.

Concerning this, Eru quoted the Second Prophecy of Mandos and said:


quote:
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if this version is to be beilived, then the Elves will dwell forever on 'Arda Unmarred'. (my name for it, since Arda Marred will be destroyed and then remade, and with Melkor/Morgoth dead, then it will no longer be marred...). anyways, i hope that makes a certain amount of since.

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I must point out that this passage is of dubious validity at best. The fullest (and I think latest) treatment of the fate of Elves occurs in the Athrabeth, where it is made clear that the Elves have no knowledge of what will happen to them beyond the End.


Maedhros: I have highlited the parts that deal with either Ælfwine and Rúmil in yellow and also parts such as Palúrien which I believe was changed to Keméntari.
If there are other changes, please feel free to mentioned them.


Eru: some of the information in the passages with Rumil and Aelfwine are valuble. are they absolutely nessecessary to take out? couldn't they be said in a slightly different way. if not, then i will agree with Maedrhos.

Maedhros: What I meant was for the references of Ælfwine and Rúmil to be taken of the text.

Eru: ah, i get it. so basically, making th info. the same, without reference to those two.

[Aiwendil]

A few notes:

Section 15: Here the reading of D is "Halls of Aman", which was not corrected to "Ea" with the general change Aman>Ea. Christopher notes that this "was obviously an oversight". It should be corrected to "Halls of Ea".

Section 16: Christopher notes that an emendation here in C>D results in a somewhat strange shift of tense. "the . . . delight of Aule was in the deed of making . . . wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care . . ."

We might emend the present tense to the past, or we might let it stand.

Section 17: Christopher notes the omission of "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" and says that it may have been inadvertant. We must decide whether to add this back in or not.

It also remains for us to decide how to deal with each of the references to Rumil, Pengolod, and Aelfwine.

[Maédhros]

Section 15: Here the reading of D is "Halls of Aman", which was not corrected to "Ea" with the general change Aman>Ea. Christopher notes that this "was obviously an oversight". It should be corrected to "Halls of Ea".
From Morgoth's Ring: Ainulindalë
As usual, Aiwendil is correct. I have made the necessary change.
Section 16: Christopher notes that an emendation here in C>D results in a somewhat strange shift of tense. "the . . . delight of Aule was in the deed of making . . . wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care . . ."
I would change the was to is: but the <font color="FFFF00"> delight and pride of Aulë is in the deed of making.
Section 17: Christopher notes the omission of "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" and says that it may have been inadvertant. We must decide whether to add this back in or not.
I would leave it out.
It also remains for us to decide how to deal with each of the references to Rúmil, Pengoloð, and Ælfwine.
I think that a vote is in order then, but I think there is a thread about Ælfwine in this section of the forum. I think that his reference should be taken out of the project.
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas
§14 Palúrien > Kementári by a pencilled change on LQ 2. This was as it were a casual change, not made in §15 (nor in §5). Kementári occurs in the Valaquenta (p. 202).
I will change Palúrien to Kementári in the text.

[ February 09, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[Aiwendil]

I would change the was to is: but the delight and pride of Aulë is in the deed of making.

Hmm. In the preceding sentences, though, the past tense is used. My inclination would be that if we are going to change anything, we should change the present to past.

I would leave it out.

Agreed. Though it's a nice bit of description, we unfortunately have no way of knowing whether Tolkien excluded it inadvertantly or intentionally.

I think that a vote is in order then, but I think there is a thread about Ælfwine in this section of the forum. I think that his reference should be taken out of the project.

I don't think there's any doubt about this. I merely meant that we must decide how to deal with each particular instance. I suppose I'll take a stab at that. If anyone else wants to try any alternatives, though, go ahead.

Here are my recommendations:

{ } Material to be deleted.
Italics Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

Authorial Credit:
This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days. {It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage.} To it are added the further words that Pengoloð {spoke} wrote {at that time} concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said thereafter

If we decide to exclude the matter that follows section 28, we should also omit the reference to Pengolodh here:

This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days. {It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage. To it are added the further words that Pengoloð spoke at that time concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said thereafter}


I assume that the removal of Aelfwine does not imply a change in the authorship of the Ainulindale - there is no reason why it cannot still have been written by Rumil, and the last few sections added by Pengolodh.

Section 0 (for lack of a better term):

{First he recited to him the Ainulindalë as Rúmil made it.}

I think this should simply be deleted. I see no way of revising it, nor a need to.

Section 14
But {thou must understand, Ælfwine, that} when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty of the Holy Ones bent all their thought and their desire towards that place.

Simple deletion of reference to Aelfwine.

Section 21
And therefore{, Ælfwine, we name them} they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

This is what Christopher does, and I am inclined to agree with him. The other option is:

And therefore{, Ælfwine,} we name them they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

But I think that "we" is out of place when this is no longer the spoken words of Pengolodh (which may paraphrase Rumil), but the written words of Rumil.

Section 25
But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. {And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.}


I regret losing the bit about Yavanna taking the form of a tree, but I can see no way to retain it that would not sound awkward.

Section 27
and of those tumults {we} the elves know but little; for {know thou, Ælfwine,} what {I have} has been declared {unto thee} is come from the Valar themselves, with whom {we of} the Eldalië spoke in the land of Valinor, and {we were} by whom they were instructed {by them}; but little would they ever tell of the days of war ere the coming of the Elves. But this {said Rúmil in the end of the Ainulindalë which I have recounted to thee} is told among the Eldar:

Here I mostly follow Christopher. Some of the changes might seem a little daring, but I think they are, at the worst, covered by the principle that allows us to use text created by Christopher Tolkien. If we end up removing the Pengolodh sections at the end, we may also want to remove this, as it is clear in Ainulindale D that these are the words of Pengolodh, not of Rumil. Or we might follow the '77, leaving this in, as emended, and assuming that these actually are Rumil's words.

Section 28
{But of all such matters, Ælfwine, others shall tell thee, or thou shalt read in other lore; for it is not my part at this time to instruct thee in the history of the Earth.} And now behold! here is the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar established at the last in the deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars. And here are the Valar, the Powers of the World, contesting for the possession of the jewel of Ilúvatar{; and thus thy feet are on the beginning of the road.
Here are the words of Pengoloð to Ælfwine}


This eliminates only that which has no significance outside of the Pengolodh-Aelfwine framework. We might also go with Christopher Tolkien's emendation: "And thus was the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars."

Section 29
{And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, such as Rúmil had made it, Pengoloð the Sage paused a while; and Ælfwine said to him: Little, you say, would the Valar tell to the Eldar of the days before their coming: but do not the wise among you know more of those ancient wars than Rúmil has here set forth? Or will you not tell me more of the Valar as they were when first your kindred beheld and knew them?}


I can see no way to retain this.

Section 30
{And Pengoloð answered: Much of what I know or have learned from the elders in lore, I have written; and what I have written thou shalt read, if thou wilt, when thou hast learned better the tongue of the Noldor and their scripts. For these matters are too great and manifold to be spoken or to be taught in speech within the brief patience and heedfulness of those of mortal race. But some little more I may tell to thee now, since thou askest it of me.}


Again, I can think of no way (or reason) to retain this.

Section 31
{This tale I have heard also among the lore masters in ages past. For they tell us that} [T]he war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth

If we decide to remove the Pengolodh material, this and the subsequent sections will be moved into "Of the Beginning of Days", as in the '77.

Section 36
And the {children} servants of Manwë and Varda are {Fionwë Úrion their son} Eonwe{,} and Ilmarë {their daughter; and these were the eldest of the children of the Valar.} They dwelt with Manwë,

There is also the matter of tense here, which we may or may not want to address.

Section [34]
{Now all is said to thee, Ælfwine, for this present, concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the time before days and ere the world became such as the Children have known it. Of these thou hast not asked, but a little I will say and so make an end.}

This, I think, must be removed. By the way, is this section numbered out of order for some reason? Or is the section number a mistake?

Section 40b
{End of the Ainulindalë spoken by Rúmil to Ælfwine}


No reason to keep this.

[ February 11, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Maédhros]

Hmm. In the preceding sentences, though, the past tense is used. My inclination would be that if we are going to change anything, we should change the present to past.

After reading again paragraph §16, I see your point and agree with the past enmedation.
I assume that the removal of Ælfwine does not imply a change in the authorship of the Ainulindalë - there is no reason why it cannot still have been written by Rúmil, and the last few sections added by Pengoloð.
From § 0
I think that we should retain Pengoloð and Rúmil.
If we decide to remove the Pengolodh material, this and the subsequent sections will be moved into "Of the Beginning of Days", as in the '77.
From § 31:
I would rather leave Pengoloð in the text.
This, I think, must be removed. By the way, is this section numbered out of order for some reason? Or is the section number a mistake?
From § [34]:
No it's not a mistake.
From Morgoth's Ring: Ainulindale
D omits the remainder of C §34 concerning the visits of Yavanna and Oromë to Middle-earth (see p. 35), and continues from the beginning of C §35: 'And in the midst of the Blessed Realm were the mansions of Aulë, and there he laboured long.' From this point D becomes again much closer to C, and the differences can be given in the form of notes.
It was just moved from that part in the C version to that part in the D version.
I will try and take a shot at some enmendations another day.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Eru- The tarnished sun version is in Myths Transformed and it explains how Melkor tried to ravish Arien, steerswoman of the Sun, but he was burnt by her, and in turn she fled from the sun.

[Aiwendil]

From § [34]:
No it's not a mistake.


Ah. Of course. Thanks for the explanation.

I would rather leave Pengoloð in the text.


I think we should probably have a vote on this.

[Maédhros]

I have posted a poll on the hidden forum so that we can decide on Rúmil and Pengoloð.
Anyone please feel free to add your comments to it.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

The hidden forum?! Lol, you're making it sound like the batcave.

[lindil]

I am copying this over from the private [aka hidden smilies/wink.gif forum so that it can be a matter of public comment and debate,
before if necessary, it is voted on.


-=-=-=~-~=-=-=-
In eliminating Aelfwine [which I am extremely loathe to do, but as all have said, Bilbo seems to have definetively replaced him] we are left with many other references in the last Ainulindale to Rumil and Pengolodh. And indeed they are scattered throught the 'Silmarillion', the Narn and various other texts, such as on Lembas, and the Akallabeth as mentioned in HoM-E 12.

So what we do here requires careful thought and perhaps more study than we have given it.

I have a question to ask before I vote.

Do we have instances of JRRT himself expunging Aelfwine/Pengoldh/Rumil from his later 50's and 60's era texts?

If so that would give us, at least a precedent.

And conversely do we have any texts that were revised very late [say after 67?] wherein the three are retained, even as JRRT continued revision or creation.

I do not have any ready answer to these queries, but I think they [ or more detailed variants of them] would go along way to educating or perhaps eliminating the need for a vote.

As a sample here is what the opening of the Ainulindale could look like without Aelfwine but with Pen. and Rumil.


Ainulindalë

The Music of the Ainur
<font color="FFFF00">This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days. It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa {[i]to Ælfwine} by Pengoloð the Sage. To it are added the further words that Pengoloð spoke at that time concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said thereafter


One may also question keeping Eressea, it could be explained by the unstated hypothesis that Elves in Eressea heard it and transmitted the tale [with Pengolodh Rumil and all] to Numenor or if we want to take Bilbo's collecting of written and living sources to it's logical extreme, Glorfindel could be the source!


I think keeping Eressea, is far less essential than Pengolodh and Rumil.

So anyway I lean towards keeping Rumil and Pengolodh, as I have said, but only if we can reasonably justify it, or conversely, taking them out only if we can find examples of JRRT doing it, or face intractable contradictions [ such as Eressea may prove to be].

[Aiwendil]

Lindil:
Do we have instances of JRRT himself expunging Aelfwine/Pengoldh/Rumil from his later 50's and 60's era texts?

We have, as far as I can find, no such instances. My search was fairly cursory, though, so I may have missed something.

One may also question keeping Eressea, it could be explained by the unstated hypothesis that Elves in Eressea heard it and transmitted the tale [with Pengolodh Rumil and all] to Numenor or if we want to take Bilbo's collecting of written and living sources to it's logical extreme, Glorfindel could be the source!


I think it's better to drop Eressea. Any justification that we might concoct for keeping it would be just that: a concoction. The fact is that in the text, Eressea appears because Pengolodh is speaking to Aelfwine there. Eliminate that conversation (as we must) and you eliminate Eressea.

Inderjit Sanghera:
1.I preffered the Silmarillion style of writing, without constant interuptions, such as 'So sayeth Rumil'.

2. I think a newcomer may find it easier without the interuptions as well.

3. I prefer to think that Bilbo wrote it.


Two points. First, the decision is not to be based on preference. Whether we prefer one style or another is not the issue. Second, I think such interruptions will have to be taken out in any case, because they rely not only on Rumil and Pengolodh, but also on Aelfwine.

It should be noted that the matter of Aelfwine is quite distinct from the existence of Pengolodh and Rumil. Aelfwine's place in the transmission of the legends is called into doubt by the following:

1. The Change of the World. In BoLT, there is no reason to think that a human could not reach Eressea. But following the appearance of the Numenor legend, a visit by Aelfwine to the Lonely Isle would appear to be impossible.

2. Bilbo's books. These imply that the Quenta Silmarillion and related material passed through the Elves to Bilbo and thus into the Shire. It also firmly establishes the existence of these materials in Middle-earth prior to Aelfwine's hypothetical voyage.

3. The Numenorean authorship. Sometime during or after the writing of LotR, Tolkien seems to have decided that the Quenta Silmarillion was not of Elvish origin, but was a text written in Numenor. There is a difficulty in this, since the change was in part linked to the round world mythology. But I am convinced that the Q.S. must be considered Numenorean. If so, then it was far more likely transmitted to Middle-earth through the Dunedain in the late Second Age than through Aelfwine sometime much later.

So Aelfwine must go. But then, we knew that already. But what of Rumil and Pengolodh? None of these three points seems to apply to them. Nor is there anything in Tolkien's writings that would seem to contradict either their existence or their authorship of certain texts. Bilbo's books were certainly not written by him. They are quite explicitly translations. And the Quenta Silmarillion may indeed be Numenorean, but the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta need not.

So I say: Eliminate Aelfwine. Eliminate references to Pengolodh speaking directly to Aelfwine. But don't expunge Rumil and Pengolodh.

[Eru]

Hail all knowing Aiwendil! man, you sure know your Tolkien, don't you? but yeah, i have to agree with you once again. like i said, your logic is sound, and you have textual(?) proof.

i've been kinda on and off the boards lately. where exactly are we in the stage of this particular project? debating?

[Petty Dwarf]

Revising the Ainulindale is a much easier thing to do compared to FoG. There's only two things to resolve: Add a short blurb about the hand me down authorship of Rumil-Pengolod-Numenor and resolve the Flat Earth tradition.

Realistically the Round Earth truth would be hardly known, even to Elves in the Third Age. Elves must have had traditions going back further than their instruction by the Valar. Even then the Noldor would be the only ones in the know in M-E, and probably only the wisest.

If there's any mention of a Round Earth Bilbo would have learned from oral material, seperate from his translations of written work. Any footnote or appendix Bilbo wrote would have been his direct rendering of that.

[ March 05, 2003: Message edited by: Petty Dwarf ]

[InklingElf]

I'm finaly able to post!

A hidden forum eh? interesting...

. . .

Aiwendil-agree that Aelfwine will be eliminated.

The Flat-Earth tradition: Realistically the Round Earth truth would be hardly known, even to Elves in the Third Age. Elves must have had traditions going back further than their instruction by the Valar. Even then the Noldor would be the only ones in the know in M-E, and probably only the wisest.

The tradition is quite "medievalistic"!

I shall have to get back to this thread, and read a bit more, as I have had many things amiss in my knowledge of the project...

. . .

[Maédhros]

Proposed Changes for the Ainulindalë:

{ } Material to be deleted.
Italics Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.
Most of the enmendations are the work of Aiwendil.

The Music of the Ainur: This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days. {It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage.} To it are added the further words that Pengoloð {spoke} wrote {at that time} concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said thereafter

{First he recited to him the Ainulindalë as Rúmil made it.}

§ 14:But {thou must understand, Ælfwine, that} when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty of the Holy Ones bent all their thought and their desire towards that place.

I’m just following the Published Silmarillion here.

§14: Palúrien > Kementári by a pencilled change on LQ 2. This was as it were a casual change, not made in §15 (nor in §5). Kementári occurs in the Valaquenta (p. 202).

§ 15: Here the reading of D is "Halls of Aman", which was not corrected to "Ea" with the general change Aman>Ea. Christopher notes that this "was obviously an oversight". It should be corrected to "Halls of Ea".

§ 16: but the delight and pride of Aulë was] in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and neither in possession nor in his own mastery; wherefore he {gives}gave and {hoards}hoarded not, and was free from care, passing ever on to some new work.

Changing of the tenses of the verbs: gives to gave, hoards to hoarded and is to was.

§ 17: Christopher notes the omission of "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" and says that it may have been inadvertant. We must decide whether to add this back in or not.
I would leave it out.

§ 21: And therefore {, Ælfwine, we name them} they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
Following the Published Silmarillion.

§ 25: But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. {And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.}

I regret losing the bit about Yavanna taking the form of a tree, but I can see no way to retain it that would not sound awkward.

§ 27: and of those tumults {we} the elves know but little; for {know thou, Ælfwine,} what {I have} has been declared {unto thee} is come from the Valar themselves, with whom {we of} the Eldalië spoke in the land of Valinor, and {we were} by whom they were instructed {by them}; but little would they ever tell of the days of war ere the coming of the Elves. But this {said Rúmil in the end of the Ainulindalë which I have recounted to thee} is told among the Eldar:

Here I mostly follow Christopher. Some of the changes might seem a little daring, but I think they are, at the worst, covered by the principle that allows us to use text created by Christopher Tolkien. If we end up removing the Pengolodh sections at the end, we may also want to remove this, as it is clear in Ainulindale D that these are the words of Pengolodh, not of Rumil. Or we might follow the '77, leaving this in, as emended, and assuming that these actually are Rumil's words.

§ 28: {But of all such matters, Ælfwine, others shall tell thee, or thou shalt read in other lore; for it is not my part at this time to instruct thee in the history of the Earth.} And now behold! here is the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar established at the last in the deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars. And here are the Valar, the Powers of the World, contesting for the possession of the jewel of Ilúvatar{; and thus thy feet are on the beginning of the road.
Here are the words of Pengoloð to Ælfwine}

This eliminates only that which has no significance outside of the Pengolodh-Aelfwine framework. We might also go with Christopher Tolkien's emendation: "And thus was the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars."

§ 29: {And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, such as Rúmil had made it, Pengoloð the Sage paused a while; and Ælfwine said to him: Little, you say, would the Valar tell to the Eldar of the days before their coming: but do not the wise among you know more of those ancient wars than Rúmil has here set forth? Or will you not tell me more of the Valar as they were when first your kindred beheld and knew them?}

I can see no way to retain this.

§ 30: {And Pengoloð answered: Much of what I know or have learned from the elders in lore, I have written; and what I have written thou shalt read, if thou wilt, when thou hast learned better the tongue of the Noldor and their scripts. For these matters are too great and manifold to be spoken or to be taught in speech within the brief patience and heedfulness of those of mortal race. But some little more I may tell to thee now, since thou askest it of me.}

Again, I can think of no way (or reason) to retain this.

§ 31: {This tale I have heard also among the lore masters in ages past. For they tell us that} [T]he war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth

If we decide to remove the Pengolodh material, this and the subsequent sections will be moved into "Of the Beginning of Days", as in the '77. Pengoloð material as per the vote will be kept.

§31b: Palúrien to Kementári.

§35: Palúrien to Kementári.

§ 36: And the {children} servants of Manwë and Varda {are} were {Fionwë Úrion their son} Eönwë{,} and Ilmarë {their daughter; and these were the eldest of the children of the Valar.} They dwelt with Manwë,

There is also the matter of tense here, which we may or may not want to address. I have taken the liberty of changing the are to were as to preserve tenses.
§[34]: {Now all is said to thee, Ælfwine, for this present, concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the time before days and ere the world became such as the Children have known it. Of these thou hast not asked, but a little I will say and so make an end.}
This, I think, must be removed.

§ 40b: End of the Ainulindalë {spoken} written by Rúmil[.] {to Ælfwine}

I hope that it could be kept in this way.
Another alternative is: deleting the whole thing as Aiwendil proposed.

I would like for all project members to revise the changes and hopefully we can have a vote to finish the Ainulindalë section of our project. I will post this post in the bat cave too.

smilies/biggrin.gif

[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[Petty Dwarf]

Wow.

§ 25: But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. {And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.}

I regret losing the bit about Yavanna taking the form of a tree, but I can see no way to retain it that would not sound awkward.

I don't know if the Yavanna section is completely unsalveagable. {And I myself, long years gone} has to go but why not substitute Eldar or Eldalie (themselves)?

[antoine2]

I post some of my work merge with Maédhros
and Awendil Idea.

AINU-01
This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder
Days. {It is here written as it was spoken in
Eressëa to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage.} To it
are added the further words that Pengoloð /*the Sage*\
{spoke} [wrote] {at that time} concerning the Valar, the
Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said hereafter

AINU-02
{First he recited to him the Ainulindalë as Rúmil made it.}

AINU-03
But {thou must understand, Ælfwine, that} when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision
I’m just following the Published Silmarillion here.

AINU-04
But the other Ainur looked upon this habitation in the Halls of {Aman} [Eä]
Here the reading of D is "Halls of Aman", which was not corrected to "Ea" with the general change Aman>Ea. Christopher notes that this "was obviously an oversight". It should be corrected to "Halls of Ea".

AINU-05
Now to water had that Ainu whom {we} [the Elves] call Ulmo

AINU-06
but the delight and pride of Aulë was in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and neither in possession nor in his own mastery; wherefore he {gives} [gave] and {hoards} [hoarded] not, and is free from care, passing ever on to some new work.
Changing of the tenses of the verbs: gives to gave, hoards to hoarded.

AINU-07
Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! [Behold the towers and mansions of ice!]
Christopher notes the omission of "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" and says that it may have been inadvertant. We must decide whether to add this back in or not.
I would leave it out.

AINU-08
And therefore{, Ælfwine, we name them} [they are named] the Valar, the Powers of the World.
Following the Published Silmarillion.

AINU-09
But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar

AINU-10
Great Ones array themselves are at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful.[Note *]{And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.}

(Note *) /*And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.*\ [Quoth Pengoloð.]
I regret losing the bit about Yavanna taking the form of a tree, to use Pengoloð insert can be a solution.

AINU-11
Thus began the first battle of the Valar and Melkor for the dominion of Arda; and of those tumults {we} [the Elves] know but little; for {know thou, Ælfwine}, what {I have} [has been] declared {unto thee} is come from the Valar themselves, with whom {we of} the Eldalië spoke in the land of Valinor, and {we were} [by whom they were] instructed {by them}; but little would {they} [the Valar] ever tell of the days of war ere the coming of the Elves. But this {said Rúmil in the end of the Ainulindalë which I have recounted to thee} [is told among the Eldar]
Here I mostly follow Christopher. Some of the changes might seem a little daring, but I think they are, at the worst, covered by the principle that allows us to use text created by Christopher Tolkien. If we end up removing the Pengolodh sections at the end, we may also want to remove this, as it is clear in Ainulindale D that these are the words of Pengolodh, not of Rumil. Or we might follow the '77, leaving this in, as emended, and assuming that these actually are Rumil's words.

AINU-12
{But of all such matters, Ælfwine, others shall tell thee, or thou shalt read in other lore; for it is not my part at this time to instruct thee in the history of the Earth.} And now behold! here is the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar established at the last in the deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars. And here are the Valar, the Powers of the World, contesting for the possession of the jewel of Ilúvatar{; and thus thy feet are on the beginning of the road}.
This eliminates only that which has no significance outside of the Pengolodh-Aelfwine framework. We might also go with Christopher Tolkien's emendation: "And thus was the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars."

AINU-13
/*End of the Ainulindalë {spoken} [written] by Rúmil {to Ælfwine} [.]*\

Here are the words of Pengoloð {to Ælfwine}
{And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, such as Rúmil had made it, Pengoloð the Sage paused a while; and Ælfwine said to him:} Little{, you say, would} [was tell by] the Valar {tell} to the Eldar of the days before their coming[.] {: but do not the wise among you know more of those ancient wars than Rúmil has here set forth? Or will you not tell me} [But it can be write] more of the Valar as they were when first {your} [the] kindred [of the Noldor] beheld and knew them{?}[.]
{And Pengoloð answered: Much of what I know or have learned from the elders in lore, I have written; and what I have written thou shalt read, if thou wilt, when thou hast learned better the tongue of the Noldor and their scripts. For these matters are too great and manifold to be spoken or to be taught in speech within the brief patience and heedfulness of those of mortal race. But some little more I may tell to thee now, since thou askest it of me.} This tale {I have heard also among} /*have learned from*\ the lore masters [of the Noldor] in ages past. {For they tell us that the}[
The] war began before Arda was full-shaped …
Editorial introduction of Pengoloð section

AINU-14
{Palúrien} [Kementári]
§31b & §35

AINU-15
And the {children} [servants] of Manwë and Varda {are} [were] {Fionwë Úrion their son,} [Eonwë] and Ilmarë {their daughter}; and these were the {eldest} [highest] of the {children} [servants] of the Valar.
There is also the matter of tense here, which we may or may not want to address. I have taken the liberty of changing the are to were as to preserve tenses.
I change eldest by highest, there is not notion of birth and age for the Ainur .

AINU-16
Now all is said {to thee, Ælfwine, for this present,} concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the time before days and ere the world became such as the Children have known it. {Of these thou hast not asked, but a little I will say and so make an end.}
This must be removed.

AINU-17
{End of the Ainulindalë spoken by Rúmil to Ælfwine}
Use previously

[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: antoine2 ]

[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: antoine2 ]

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: antoine2 ]

[Petty Dwarf]

Two quick things:

I think "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" should be put back in; but how does everyone feel about it?

Yavanna-tree Situation:
The whole statement is a little out of step with the rest of the narrative, since it comes from an aside to Aelfwine. I think we all agree that if it's in the text Pengolod and not Rumil put it there. But "quoth Pengolod" wouldn't work, neither of the authors are ever mentioned outside of the headings.

[lindil]

re: AINU-10 and the Tree/Yavanna, I say we move it to the Valaquenta [when yavanna is decribed] as per Aiwendil's suggstion.

It is far to beautiful to loose altogether, and would fit there better anyway. [ And thankfully we have CJRT's example for moving Ainu.material to Valaquenta.

[antoine2]

I disagree with this idea.

Valaquenta is a tale wrote by Rumil; there is no indication that there is insert of pengolod in this text.

For Ainulindale it s different, some inserts of Pengolod are present.
First in our introduction, it s write that:
To it are added the further words that Pengoloð the Sage wrote concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani
And second in Morgoth Ring there is an indication that Tolkien used this type of insert
§ 19 After 'when the vision was taken away' there is a footnote that seems to have been an early addition:
And some have said that the Vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; wherefore, though the Music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages or the ending of the World. Quoth Pengoloð.
MORGOTH`S RING - AINULINDALË - Version D - Page 32

Anyway for sur we can't put off this beautiful insert. But this add of Pengolod, that looks for me like a "sade remembrance", a spleen of Valinor, looks better like an insert in this text.

But it s my vision , but a vote is possible.

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: antoine2 ]

[Petty Dwarf]

I don't know, antoine...

§ 19 After 'when the vision was taken away' there is a footnote that seems to have been an early addition:
And some have said that the Vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; wherefore, though the Music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages or the ending of the World. Quoth Pengoloð.
MORGOTH`S RING - AINULINDALË - Version D - Page 32

That text is still functioning on the idea that it was Aelfwine's rendering of Pengolod's speech. We've voted against Aelfwine and made Pengolod a writer.

Ainu-10:Moving it to the Valaquenta is interesting...maybe a little brazen, but interesting.

[ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: Petty Dwarf ]

[antoine2]

i don t know.

For me, it s Rumil the writer and Pengolod an editor who transcribed the text and added some words.

Cf:
AINU-01
This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder
Days. To it are added the further words that Pengoloð the Sage wrote concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said hereafter.

And nowhere we can see that Pengolod added something or wrote anything in the Valaquenta.

[Aiwendil]

Petty Dwarf:
I think "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" should be put back in; but how does everyone feel about it?

I'd rather like to put it back in, personally. It seems to me like it was most likely an error that it was left out of D by Tolkien.

Antoine wrote:

I disagree with this idea.
Valaquenta is a tale wrote by Rumil; there is no indication that there is insert of pengolod in this text.

That's true. And since Pengolodh is in any case the one who wrote the bit about Yavanna being a tree, that segment can't go in the Valaquenta. Alas.

On second thought - I just checked X and I can find no reference to the authorship of the Valaquenta. I'm probably missing something, but how do we know it was Rumil's work?

Antoine again:
For me, it s Rumil the writer and Pengolod an editor who transcribed the text and added some words.

Yes, but the passage about Yavanna seems to me more of an aside to Aelfwine than an addition to the text. If we included it, how would we indicate that it was written by Pengolodh rather than Rumil? If there's no indication, it will seem to be the words of Rumil, since later on we have a statement to the effect of "All the previous stuff was Rumil's account, but the following was added by Pengolodh."

[Findegil]

A way for that would be to turn it into a footnote to the proper Text of Rumil, introduced by something in the line of: "Here Pengolod added: ....."

Respectfully
Findegil

[Petty Dwarf]

A way for that would be to turn it into a footnote to the proper Text of Rumil, introduced by something in the line of: "Here Pengolod added: ....."

It's hard to do this...we'd have to write for the Translator, and we're definitely not doing that.

If we included it, how would we indicate that it was written by Pengolodh rather than Rumil? If there's no indication, it will seem to be the words of Rumil

Unless we state that the Yavanna tree was seen by some of the Exiles. This would be a flag that it was a Pengolod addition. It takes some attentiveness on a reader's part, but doesn't that hold for everything with TftE?

[Maédhros]

I was going to post these changes earlier, but alas, I couldn't.
Antoine's changes:

Introduction: the addition of the phrase: the sage.
that Pengoloð the Sage {spoke} wrote
Agree with that one.

§ 16: change from {the Elves} to we.
Agree.

§ 17: I would leave out the reference of:
{Behold the towers and mansion of ice!}
Because, it may have been an omision, but it is also likely that it is not. Since this was a change that was made in a later draft, I think that it should be gone.
A similar case was discussed when I proposed changing the Children of Ilúvatar to Men, because it too could have been an omision or mistake of JRRT, but it is also probable that it was not.
Since both are changes in later manuscripts, both should retain their later forms.

§ 25: Deletion of the word not:
Array themselves are {not} at all times ...
I would keep the not.

§ 25: Use of a note that is quoted by Pengoloð, so to remain Yavanna's tree description.
I definitely agree with that.

§ 27: Change of they to the Valar.
but little would {they} The Valar ever tell of the days of war ere the coming of the Elves..
Agree with that one.

§ 29: I'm ok with this but I would change the tense of the verb write to written.
But it can be {write} written more of the Valar as they were when...
I would exclude this part too:
{This tale {I have heard also among} /*have learned from*\ the lore masters [of the Noldor] in ages past. }

§ 36: I agree with this change. Inclusion of the word highest.
and these were the {eldest} highest of the {children} servants of the Valar.

§ [34]: Now all is said {to thee, Ælfwine, for this present,} concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the time before days and ere the world became such as the Children have known it. {Of these thou hast not asked, but a little I will say and so make an end.}
Agree.

§ 40b: Can you be more specific Antoine?

[ March 23, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[ March 23, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[antoine2]

§ 40b: Can you be more specific Antoine?

It s correspond to

AINU-17
{End of the Ainulindalë spoken by Rúmil to Ælfwine}
Use previously

that is use in :

AINU-13
/*End of the Ainulindalë {spoken} [written] by Rúmil {to Ælfwine} [.]*\

Here are the words of Pengoloð {to Ælfwine}
{And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, such as Rúmil had made it, Pengoloð the Sage paused a while; and Ælfwine said to him:} Little{, you say, would} [was tell by] the Valar {tell} to the Eldar of the days before their coming[.] {: but do not the wise among you know more of those ancient wars than Rúmil has here set forth? Or will you not tell me} [But it can be write] more of the Valar as they were when first {your} [the] kindred [of the Noldor] beheld and knew them{?}[.]
{And Pengoloð answered: Much of what I know or have learned from the elders in lore, I have written; and what I have written thou shalt read, if thou wilt, when thou hast learned better the tongue of the Noldor and their scripts. For these matters are too great and manifold to be spoken or to be taught in speech within the brief patience and heedfulness of those of mortal race. But some little more I may tell to thee now, since thou askest it of me.} This tale {I have heard also among} /*have learned from*\ the lore masters [of the Noldor] in ages past. {For they tell us that the}[
The] war began before Arda was full-shaped …
Editorial introduction of Pengoloð section

[antoine2]

The project of Ainulindale need to be merge, i think, with two others sub-project :
- The Valaquenta
- The First Chapter of the Quenta Silmarillion : CRT's Of the beginning of the Days.

Lindil, we did nt discuss in the private forum, about the possibility to start a new sub-project/project.
If you disagree or you think that we need to finish totally the FOG and the Ainu project ...
You can delete the new thread what i will do in 5 min smilies/smile.gif

Antoine

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: antoine2 ]

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: antoine2 ]

[lindil]

I was just speaking to Maedhros re: what was needed to finish Ainulindale and then get to work on the Valaquenta.

THe general procedure has been to email all ostensible and obvious team members to finalize [ in this cacse the Ainulindale] and then to also let folks know that the Valaquenta is begining.


Not sure what you mean by merge?

That they need to be considered in connection with each other because of the overlap of material?

[Aiwendil]

What more needs to be done here?

I am agreed on the final forms of all the changes above except in the case of the Yavanna as a tree bit. I have searched (rather cursorily, I admit) and can find no reference to the authorship of the Valaquenta. Can anyone else? It seems that it may matter whether it was written by Rumil or Pengolodh.

[antoine2]

me too
I find no reference to the authorship.

Anyway, i think if everybody is ok, we can declare this project closed.

Antoine

[Maédhros]

I agree that it is nearly done, but I'm still not sure about the exclusion of the Yavanna tree thing.
I would exclude it myself, but if people don't agree then a poll is needed.

[lindil]

I lean towards keeping it, although, I favor a move of it into Valaquenta.
It is such a beautiful line, and one of the few 'personal' touches that enters into the Aman portions of the Silm.

It is blatantly interventionist, but I think in this case the end justifies the move. CJRT also moved things to and fro from Ainulindale. If no one else seconds this idea, I will live with the group consensus.

[Maédhros]

I made a boo boo lindil. I meant to say the part about the icy mountains that was not kept in revision D. I'm all for keeping the Yavanna thing as a footnote like Antoine suggested.

[lindil]

A footnote sounds good, though it opens the floodgate to other such 'minor' editorial glosses and such, but on the whole, itseems best. Has the exact wording been posted above and I missed it?

I will look up the mntns section.

[Aiwendil]

I must admit that I've completely lost the thread of this discussion.

I think the point under consideration was whether we can retain Pengolod's reference to Yavanna as a tree.

I am inclined now to simply drop this. Moving it to the Valaquenta is simply too bold.

What do others think of this?

What else must be done to finalize this project?

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
I think the point under consideration was whether we can retain Pengolod's reference to Yavanna as a tree.
I am inclined now to simply drop this. Moving it to the Valaquenta is simply to bold.

If I recall correctly, the problem with moving the text from the Ainulindalë to the Valaquenta lays in the fact that we know that it was Rúmil the author of the Ainulindalë and Pengoloð was a form of editor. Unfortunately for us, we have no such knowledge regarding the Valaquenta.
Now that I have had time to think about it, It agree with both Aiwendil and antoine that moving it to the Valaquenta is too bold a move.
I think that there might be some way that we could use this beautiful description of Yavanna in our main narrative, without resorting to the use of a footnote.
Do you think that this emendation could be acceptable in our project?

But{ think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. {And I myself, long years agone,} It has been told that in the land of the Valar {have seen} Yavanna has been seen in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.
My changes are mostly editorial in nature. It is true that Pengoloð has seen Yavanna as a tree, so it would not be far fetched to retain it. Maybe Aiwendil can propose something better?

[Aiwendil]

Perhaps:

But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And {I myself, long years agone,} some in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.

It has the advantage that it minimizes the addition.

[Antoine]

I m definitively around this change.

What i enjoyed in our version of ainulindale, it s this vision of 2 different writer Rumil and Pengoloth.
To put off, the reference of oral discussion like :
{thou must understand, AElfwine, that}
I'm ok.

But changing some quote of the editor looks for me like breaking of our rules.

I hope the note will stay like this.

Regards
Antoine

[Maédhros]

To tell you the truth Antoine, I really like Aiwendil's suggested change to include Yavanna's tree description in the main narrative.
I personally don't see Aiwendil's editorial change either disruptive or changing something drastically.

What do the others think?

[Findegil]

I had to reread the thread to get any idea were we are in the discussion. After doing so I figured out that first hand it was discussed to drop the Yavanna as a tree section because it was vocal addition by Pengoloð addressing Ælfwine.
Now we think of taking it back into place wihot any indication of the authorship of that peace of info.

I agree with Antione that this will not go. The sections is quite difrent in style from the rest of the Ainulindale. If we want to use that section (and I am symphatic with that idea) than I think we should indicat it as an addition by Pengoloð.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Antoine]

Fingedil, I m with you :)

And that about a note with little * in the text that refers to an insert of pengoloth ?

Great Ones array themselves are at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful.[Note *]

(Note *) And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar. [Quoth Pengoloð.]


It works good with our solution where some other inserts of Pengolod are present.
Like in our introduction, it s write that:

To it are added the further words that Pengoloð the Sage wrote concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani

Anyway for sur we can't put off this beautiful insert.
This add of Pengolod, that looks for me like a "sade remembrance", a spleen of Valinor.
And it looks better like an insert in this text.

Regards
Antoine

[Maédhros]

I'm all for using the Pengoldh's reference of Yavanna, but after the work done in the Fall of Gondolin, I'm against the use of a footnote.
If there is no other way than to use the footnote, I would eliminate that reference.

[Antoine]

why ?
Why after our work on fall of gondolin you don't want to use footnote.

It's different type of text.

Ainulindale is an oral story from the Valar that Rumil listens and Pengolod compiled this story and adds some comments.

Fall of Gondolin is part of Human mythology : long oral tradition, without compiled book since the work of Bilbo in "Translation from the elvish"

[Aiwendil]

If Findegil and Antoine are against the alteration and retention of the passage in the text, then I would go for eliminating it entirely. A footnote feels like a cheat to me.

Keep in mind that the reason that Pengolodh appears in the original text is because the framework is a Pengolodh-Aelfwine one. We have no indication that Pengolodh's comments and additions would have survived the removal of Aelfwine, much less that he would have actually added footnotes to the text. Such things are quite a different matter from spoken asides to Aelfwine.

[Maédhros]

why ?
Why after our work on fall of gondolin you don't want to use footnote.

Because while working on the Fall of Gondolin, we stumbled upon different dificulties which were all resolved in being integrated to our main narrative. If a compromise could not be reached, then it was better to discard the change or emendation. If we resorted to footnotes we would IMO lower the standards of the project by tip-toing the difficulties that arise in them.

The interesting thing was that we were all of the idea of wanting to keep the Yavanna description, but alas, we could not agree on the way of doing that. I think that if there are no new suggestions, then our work with the Ainulindalë is finished and we end up loosing that description.

If Findegil and Antoine are against the alteration and retention of the passage in the text, then I would go for eliminating it entirely. A footnote feels like a cheat to me.
My sentiments exactly.

[Findegil]

What makes the idea of an fottnote more bearable to me in these particular text ist the fact that we have a footnote in the original text, which does do exactly what we want do do with the remark about Yavanna seen as a tree: it provides a quote from Pengolodh.

But I am not all for a footnote here. I only wanted to make a clear statment that this obserfation came from Pengolodh and was not part of the text as given by Rumil.

If we all want to hold that nice pice of discription than I don't think we should so soon say there is no way. We are not in hurry, are we? So take it easy and think about it may be someone will come up with an emedation of the text that all are happy with.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Antoine]

Because while working on the Fall of Gondolin, we stumbled upon different difficulties which were all resolved in being integrated to our main narrative. If a compromise could not be reached, then it was better to discard the change or emendation. If we resorted to footnotes we would IMO lower the standards of the project by tip-toing the difficulties that arise in them.

I think what we did on FOG and the insert in the Ainulindale are two different things

Like said Findegil
we have a footnote in the original text

and Tolkien uses sometimes this type of insert like in Lotr about the fact that the sun is feminine and the moon is masculin. If I remember correcly it s an insert of the original editor of the book : Frodon :-)

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:
What makes the idea of an fottnote more bearable to me in these particular text ist the fact that we have a footnote in the original text, which does do exactly what we want do do with the remark about Yavanna seen as a tree: it provides a quote from Pengolodh.


In the original text, it's not a footnote (unless I'm missing something). It's a completely intra-textual aside made to Aelfwine.

We have no indication that it is anything more than a spoken comment; we have no indication that Pengolodh edited or annotated Rumil's portions of the Ainulindale at all, much less that he added this particular comment as a footnote. That's my chief objection.

We have been proceeding as if the Ainulindale we are working on is supposed to literally be the Ainulindale, the document that existed in Arda. I've commented on that decision a few times - but now that we are doing it that way, we might as well continue in that manner. And it seems to me that if we are creating the literal Ainulindale then we ought to be even stricter with regard to changes such as this than we would be in a mere abstract account of events.

What I mean is that what is in doubt is not the idea that Pengolodh saw Yavanna as a tree. If this were the Fall of Gondolin or another section where we were not expressly trying to create a Middle-earth document, there would surely be nothing wrong with inserting mention of Yavanna as a tree in whatever way we could.

But what is in doubt here is the idea that Pengolodh added this footnote to the text. I think that it is too risky to decide that he did.

[Antoine]

Aiwendil wrote :

In the original text, it's not a footnote (unless I'm missing something). It's a completely intra-textual aside made to Aelfwine.

We have no indication that it is anything more than a spoken comment; we have no indication that Pengolodh edited or annotated Rumil's portions of the Ainulindale at all, much less that he added this particular comment as a footnote. That's my chief objection.

But in Home 10 Christopher Tolkien wrote :

§ 19 After 'when the vision was taken away' there is a footnote that seems to have been an early addition:

And some have said that the Vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; wherefore, though the Music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages or the ending of the World. Quoth Pengoloð.

Aiwendil continued :

We have been proceeding as if the Ainulindale we are working on is supposed to literally be the Ainulindale, the document that existed in Arda. I've commented on that decision a few times - but now that we are doing it that way, we might as well continue in that manner. And it seems to me that if we are creating the literal Ainulindale then we ought to be even stricter with regard to changes such as this than we would be in a mere abstract account of events.

I m definitively with you, this Ainulindale needs to be the document existed in Arda, not the one from Aman, that is lost ; but the one that crossed the 3 ages of Middle Earth ... and if Pengolod put some quoth in the original text ... it looks for me more "authentic".

Regards
Antoine

[Aiwendil]

Antoine wrote:
But in Home 10 Christopher Tolkien wrote :

Yes, there are other footnotes in the text. But this, the comment at hand, was not a footnote.

I m definitively with you, this Ainulindale needs to be the document existed in Arda, not the one from Aman, that is lost ; but the one that crossed the 3 ages of Middle Earth ... and if Pengolod put some quoth in the original text ... it looks for me more "authentic".


I would agree if the comment were a written footnote in the original text. But in the original text it is not; it is rather a spoken comment made to Aelfwine.

I do not think that we can simply commute spoken comments made to Aelfwine into written footnotes made in the text.

[Antoine]

Yes, there are other footnotes in the text. But this, the comment at hand, was not a footnote.

I'm sorry, but i don't understand.

There is Ainulindale C, the full text can be found in home 10, it 's a text without footnote.

But for Ainulindale D, Christopher Tolkien explain that it 's :
a manuscript of unusual splendour, with illuminated capitals and a beautiful script
but nothing about some tapuscript that follows this manuscript.

CRT didn't write the full text but just the changes.
And he wrote about the paragraph 19 :

After 'when the vision was taken away' there is a footnote that seems to have been an early addition:
And some have said that the Vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; wherefore, though the Music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages or the ending of the World. Quoth Pengoloð.


If I follow you , the early addition is a rejected addition.

Can you explain to me your way for this conclusion.


Regards
Antoine

[Aiwendil]

It's quite possible that I'm misunderstanding something.

I thought that the passage in question was from S. 25: "And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar, have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree." There was no change to this in Ainulindale D. I don't dispute the addition of a footnote to S. 19.

[Antoine]

You know that ...
I think I did a little mistake.

I re-read every thing and send some answer tomorrow.

[Findegil]

So when I understand rightly what was said so far, than
- we all want to hold the discription of Yavanna as a tree, if we can find a good way to do so.
- we know that the passage under discussion is not a footnote but a verbal aside from Pengoloð to Ælfwine.
- we agree that Ælfwine is to be deleted and that therefore the passage can not stand as it is.
- we also agree that in the Ainulindale as we created it, is a footnote to §19 (not directly connected to the passage under discussion) that is asigned "Quoth Pengoloð."

With so much in common we should find a way out of our problem.

Aiwendil and Maedhros suggested to incooperat the passage into the text, by deleting the indications of the spoken communication. This would mean to make the observer of scene unkown and to give the actuel wording to Rumil. The advantage is that we hold the passage as a part of the text.

Antoine and I suggested to move the passage into a footnote. The advantage is that we could leave the passage in the mouth of Pengoloð without to much emendations in the passage itself. The disadvantage is that we lift a spoken word of Pengoloð to a writen word a scribed to or written by Pengoloð and that we creat a textual footnote (in contrast to editorial footnotes) which we have avioded so fare.

As I read the latest devolopments in the discussion, it seems to me that Aiwendil is now fighting against the use of the passage at all. I think that we should not do that. We are not dealing (as we often did within FoG) with an editorial additon from some old text. We are talking about Tolkiens last version of the Ainulindale written in a time when the Lord of the Rings was published (if I am not mistaken). So he left that passage and we should try the same.

I have no conclusion that would deliver that "gordicknot" put I would like here some more arguments why it is better to change the source of the passage than to move it. I am as jet not able to understand fully Aiwendils point of view.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Petty Dwarf]

Aiwendil and Maedhros suggested to incooperat the passage into the text, by deleting the indications of the spoken communication. This would mean to make the observer of scene unkown and to give the actuel wording to Rumil. The advantage is that we hold the passage as a part of the text. It might give the wording to Rúmil, but it might not. The ultimate author of this version we're dealing with is Pengoloð. True, he styled it after Rúmil's in Valinor, but that version and its author stayed there. It can be left for the reader to decide which narrator the Yavanna line came from. If we leave the it ambiguous it can rightly come from either.

Antoine and I suggested to move the passage into a footnote. The advantage is that we could leave the passage in the mouth of Pengoloð without to much emendations in the passage itself. The disadvantage is that we lift a spoken word of Pengoloð to a writen word a scribed to or written by Pengoloð and that we creat a textual footnote (in contrast to editorial footnotes) which we have avioded so fare.

We are talking about Tolkiens last version of the Ainulindale written in a time when the Lord of the Rings was published (if I am not mistaken). So he left that passage and we should try the same. Not really. He left that passage in with the entire conception of the Ælfwine-Pengoloð convo. We've already made the editorial decision to move away from that, just as CT did. We're actually very far off from Tolkien's last version of Ainulindalë, but sadly it's a concession we have to make because we can't make Tolkien's true version work without radical new writing. By the same token, that is an enormous editorial leap to make. By comparison placing the Yavanna tree remark in a footnote is slight.

I'm going to tentatively throw in with the footnote idea. There does seem to be a precedent for it considering the final part is a pure Pengoloð footnote. And we do know for sure this line is taken directly from him since he said it to Ælfwine.

[Maédhros]

So when I understand rightly what was said so far, than
- we all want to hold the discription of Yavanna as a tree, if we can find a good way to do so.
- we know that the passage under discussion is not a footnote but a verbal aside from Pengoloð to Ælfwine.
- we agree that Ælfwine is to be deleted and that therefore the passage can not stand as it is.
- we also agree that in the Ainulindalë as we created it, is a footnote to §19 (not directly connected to the passage under discussion) that is asigned "Quoth Pengoloð."


Aiwendil and Maedhros suggested to incorporate the passage into the text, by deleting the indications of the spoken communication. This would mean to make the observer of scene unkown and to give the actuel wording to Rúmil. The advantage is that we hold the passage as a part of the text.

Antoine and I suggested to move the passage into a footnote. The advantage is that we could leave the passage in the mouth of Pengoloð without to much emendations in the passage itself. The disadvantage is that we lift a spoken word of Pengoloð to a writen word a scribed to or written by Pengoloð and that we create a textual footnote (in contrast to editorial footnotes) which we have avioded so far.


I'm a little intrigued so far with the problem that we are having in trying to accomodate Yavanna's tree passage into the text. The problem it seems lies in the fact that the passage comes from Pengoloð and not from Rúmil, meanwhile if we use a footnote, we would know for sure that the passage came from Pengoloð and not from Rúmil, and we have a precedent of another footnote in the Ainulindalë.
My first original idea agreed with Antoine, use a footnote in the text because we have a precedent in the Ainulindalë. But as I worked with the Fall of Gondolin, I came to dislike the idea of it. As I was re-reading our version today, I noted some interesting things:
§ 14... But {thou must understand, Ælfwine,} that when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty of the Holy Ones bent all their thought and their desire towards that place. And of these Melkor was the chief, even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music. And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him. But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Ilúvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subjects and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.
and this one...
§21 Thus it came to pass that of the Holy Ones some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should henceforth be contained and bounded in the World, and be within it for ever, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore{, Ælfwine,} we name them the Valar, the Powers of the World.
How is it that in these two passages, we had no trouble keeping the text into our main narrative yet have have the problem in section §25.? Am I missing something here?

[Petty Dwarf]

Well, look at the section from Ainu§25... But think not, Ælfwine, that the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar. It's not that it's impossible to deal with the intrusion of the first person singular "I myself...have seen", it's just awkward to do so as an editor knowing it was written thus. It's not just eliminating an address to Ælfwine like in the beginning of the above quote. It can be reasonably kept in the text, if we gut the entire sentence and it's meaning. Here's an example (and excuse the slipshod notation, I'm going off the cuff):And {I myself}[the XXX themselves], long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words.... I left it XXX because we'd have to ask who was it that saw her like that. The Noldor? All the Eldalië? Pengoloð? That choice may go beyond editing.

I think keeping the sentence intact as a footnote is best because the intent of the sentence is expressing the intensely personal. Pengoloð's own experience of having seen a Vala in this beyond-Treebeard shape was so striking that he had to interject it here. Yes he said it to Ælfwine in the true text, but he would say it to every reader like this: And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar. [Quoth Pengoloð.]

[Aiwendil]

Petty Dwarf wrote:
I left it XXX because we'd have to ask who was it that saw her like that. The Noldor? All the Eldalië? Pengoloð? That choice may go beyond editing.


If we were going to go this way, I think that my earlier proposal is as good as anything:

But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And {I myself, long years agone,} some in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.

I think keeping the sentence intact as a footnote is best because the intent of the sentence is expressing the intensely personal.

I'm not sure that this is relevant, but I disagree. I don't see the passage as having fundamentally to do with Pengolodh at all, but rather with the Valar.

Maedhros wrote:
How is it that in these two passages, we had no trouble keeping the text into our main narrative yet have have the problem in section §25.? Am I missing something here?

This is an excellent point, and a subtle one I think. If I follow you, your argument is: in the Ainulindale D we have instances such as:

But {thou must understand, Ælfwine,} that when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein

These clearly suggest that some or much of the surrounding text is the invention of Pengolodh. That is - surely he is not simply reading Rumil's text and adding only phrases like "thou must understand, Aelfwine". He is giving an oral account, no doubt based closely on Rumil's written account, but not matching it word for word. We have so far ignored the fact that in the old version it was an oral account and in our new version it is a written one; we have not tried to wipe out Pengolodh's embellishments and reconstruct Rumil's written text because there is no way of establishing which words exactly Rumil used. Instead, we have more or less pretended that Pengolodh's oral version is exactly Rumil's written version, with only obvious first and second person phrases removed.

I need to think about this situation a little bit more before I can tell you what I think ought to be done.

[Maédhros]

These clearly suggest that some or much of the surrounding text is the invention of Pengolodh. That is - surely he is not simply reading Rumil's text and adding only phrases like "thou must understand, Aelfwine". He is giving an oral account, no doubt based closely on Rumil's written account, but not matching it word for word. We have so far ignored the fact that in the old version it was an oral account and in our new version it is a written one; we have not tried to wipe out Pengolodh's embellishments and reconstruct Rumil's written text because there is no way of establishing which words exactly Rumil used. Instead, we have more or less pretended that Pengolodh's oral version is exactly Rumil's written version, with only obvious first and second person phrases removed.

Yes, that sums it better than I did.
For the record, I think that Aiwendil's emendation is very good.

[Petty Dwarf]

I have a few more thoughts before the entire matter is settled.

§ 14... But {thou must understand, Ælfwine,} that when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty of the Holy Ones bent all their thought and their desire towards that place. And of these Melkor was the chief, even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music. And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him. But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Ilúvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subjects and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.
§21 Thus it came to pass that of the Holy Ones some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should henceforth be contained and bounded in the World, and be within it for ever, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore{, Ælfwine,} we name them the Valar, the Powers of the World.
Aiwendil wrote: These clearly suggest that some or much of the surrounding text is the invention of Pengolodh. That is - surely he is not simply reading Rumil's text and adding only phrases like "thou must understand, Aelfwine". He is giving an oral account, no doubt based closely on Rumil's written account, but not matching it word for word. We have so far ignored the fact that in the old version it was an oral account and in our new version it is a written one; we have not tried to wipe out Pengolodh's embellishments and reconstruct Rumil's written text because there is no way of establishing which words exactly Rumil used. Instead, we have more or less pretended that Pengolodh's oral version is exactly Rumil's written version, with only obvious first and second person phrases removed. These could suggest Pendoloð was adding on to Rúmil at those points, but I find that doubtful. They contain big sections of the general plot which must have first occured in Rúmil's version, or else his version was severly lacking. I think those addresses to Ælfwine were used for emphasis, and to convey the feel of conversation. It's not the same situation as this Yavanna line. We know for sure it was not in Rúmil's.


But think not, Ælfwine, that the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.
Petty Dwarf wrote:I think keeping the sentence intact as a footnote is best because the intent of the sentence is expressing the intensely personal. Pengoloð's own experience of having seen a Vala in this beyond-Treebeard shape was so striking that he had to interject it here.
Aiwendil responded:I'm not sure that this is relevant, but I disagree. I don't see the passage as having fundamentally to do with Pengolodh at all, but rather with the Valar. This is essentially a matter of semantics, but I don't think either of us is wrong. The example Pengoloð gives illustrates an essential facet of the nature of the Valar told in the previous sentence: they they are not bound by any one shape. But he goes further by giving an example he himself had experienced. He tells Ælfwine both what he saw (And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree) which sufficiently illustrates the point that the Valar can clothe themselves in shapes different than elf or man. He then goes further, adding his appreciation of that form (the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.) which is a personal judgement based on the experience. Another person, an orc let's say, might have a different judgement.

The entire passage has a great deal to do with Pengoloð and the Ainulindalë itself. It gives us a glimpse of Pengoloð's character we may lose if we take the experience away from him. CT deleted the character completely, we should try not to. That Pengoloð saw Yavanna in tree-form we know. But was he the only one or was he with others? We can't answer that with the information we have. The "some" with which you would replace "I myself" does that in effect.
Also he saw Yavanna "long years agone": an indication that this incident, and maybe even the Rúmilian Ainulindalë existed far earlier than this account we're creating.

Remember, Rúmil and his Ainulindalë never left Valinor. The version Tolkien wrote was an oral retelling of that by Pengoloð sometime after the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain. TftE's version is based on the assumption that this is a work translated by Bilbo in Rivendell, which must have been written by an Exile.

[Findegil]

Did I miss some thing?
When the text of Antione apeared (for a view days), I thought that the all problems we had with the Ainulindalë were settled. But revisiting this thread I think that the issue of the Yavanna as a tree was not finally resolved. With the text readed (hopefully) as Antione did provide it, are there still no renegades for a such a elegant conclusion as a footnote did provide:)?

And reading the text and its companions in the HoME I found a heavy problem: The First battle of the Valar as told in the Ainulindalë was later changed in The Annals of Aman. Beside the fact that the discription in AAm is much more elaborated then in the Ainulindalë and thus sweets the overall goal of the project better there are some big differences:
- Utumno was in AAm build before the assult on Almaren and the Lamps.
- The Valar did pursuit Melkor at once, but cuold not overcome him. They did come out of Valinor at Melkor for the first time at the War of Powers.

Beside these project issuse I have a question of understanding: As its stands in the Sil77 and the Ainulindalë I got the understanding that Melkor at first did dispute Manwë's Kingship and was driven from the World. Then he returned and the First war of the Valar occured which was ended when Tulkas chased Melkor again from the world.
But now after reading all the texts again I think that view was wrong. It seems to me know that the end of Rúmils Ainulindalë, the addition Pengolodh and the first §§ in Of Valinor and the two Trees do discribe the same event thrice: the First war of the Valar that following the Annals of Aman lasted 1500 VY before Tulkas came in and drove Melkor out.
Do you think that I have got the story right now or do you think that Melkor left the world two times?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Aside from the problem of „Yavanna as a tree“ I have already mentioned in my last post the changed course of the story in the first war of the Valar. I this post I will give the changes that in my view are necessary. I am not sure that we can stick to the assumption that what we produce here is the existing Middle-Earth version of the Ainulidalë. It seems necessar yto me to take up big parts of the Annal of Aman (Aam) to creat the text that serves our over-all goal (a most rich and canon friendly Version of all the story). But this issue seems to me not more than a philosophical discussion. Anyway if the assumption that the text has existence in Middle-Earth does hinder us to solve a canonical problem or take up more rich versions of the story we must skip that assumption.

Since the issue is concerned with the discription of the first war of the Valar, I will start my discussion with §31 in Pengoloð’s addition:
§31 This tale {I have heard also among}<was learned from> the lore masters [of the Noldor] in ages past. {For they tell us that the}
The war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth, and for long Melkor had the upper hand. Ai-1W-01 <AAm And Melkor wrought great ruin with fire and deadly cold and marred all that the other Valar made.> But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in Ai-1W-02{the far heaven}<AAm distant regions of Eä> that there was battle in the Little Kingdom. And he came like a storm of laughter and loud song, and Earth shook under his great golden feet. So came Tulkas, the Strong and the Merry, whose anger passeth like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it{.} Ai-1W-03 <AAm , but he turned a face of' anger towards Melkor; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his mirth,>{And Melkor was shaken by the laughter of Tulkas,} and fled from the Earth; and there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after. {In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and they planted seeds; and since, when the fires had been subdued or buried beneath the primeval hills, there was need of Light for the enlightening of the Middle-earth which they had built amid the Encircling Seas, and they set the lamps upon high pillars, loftier far than any of the mountains of the later days. And one they raised near to the North of Middle-earth, and it was named Foros; and the other they raised in the South, and it was called Hyaras. And the light of the lamps of the Valar went out over the Earth so that all was lit as it were in a changeless day. Then the seeds that the Valar had planted began swiftly to sprout and to burgeon, and there arose a multitude of growing things great and small, grasses, and flowers of many colours, and trees whose blossom was like snow upon the mountains but whose feet were wrapped in the shadow of their mighty limbs. And beasts and birds came forth and dwelt in the green plains or in the rivers and the lakes, or walked in the darkness of the woods. And richest was the growth of plant and beast in the midmost parts of the Earth where the lights of both lamps met and were blended. And there upon the isle of Almaren in a great lake was the first dwelling of the gods, when all things were new, and green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers.}
In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and Yavanna planted at last the seeds that she had long devised. And since, when the fires had been subdued or buried beneath the primeval hills, there was need of light, Aulë wrought two mighty lamps for the enlightenment of the Middle-earth which he had built amid the Encircling Seas. Then Varda filled the lamps and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp they raised near to the North of Middle-earth, and it was named Illuin; and the other was raised in the South, and it was named Ormal; and the light of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out over the Earth, so that all was lit as it were in a changeless Day.
Then the seeds that Yavanna had sown began swiftly to sprout and to burgeon, and there arose a multitude of growing things great and small, mosses and grasses, and great ferns, and trees whose tops were crowned with cloud as they were living mountains, but whose feet were wrapped in a green twilight. And beasts {[struck out: and birds]} came forth and dwelt in the grassy plains, or in the rivers and the lakes, or walked in the shadow of the woods. As yet no flower had bloomed nor any bird had sung, for these things waited still their time in the bosom of {Palúrien}[Kementári]; but wealth there was of her imagining, and nowhere more rich than in the midmost parts of the Earth, where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. And there upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, and new-made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers{; and they were long content}. Ai-1W-04 <AAm But the Valar were seldom there gathered in company, for ever they would fare abroad in Arda, each in his own business.
And it came to pass that at last the Valar were content, and they were minded to rest a while from labour and watch the growth and unfolding of the things that they had devised and begun. Therefore Manwe ordained a great feast, and summoned all the Valar and the queens of the Valar unto Almaren, together with all their folk. And they came at his bidding; but Aule, it is said, and Tulkas were weary; for the craft of Aule and the strength of Tulkas had been at the service of all without ceasing in the days of their labour.
Now Melkor knew of all that was done; for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron, a great craftsman of the household of Aule. And afar off in the dark places Melkor was filled with hatred, being jealous of the work of his peers, whom he desired to make subject to himself. Therefore he gathered to himself spirits out of the voids of Ea that he had perverted to his service, and he deemed himself strong. And seeing now his time he drew near again unto Arda, and looked down upon it, and the beauty of the Earth in its Spring filled him the more with hate.
Now therefore the Valar were gathered upon Almaren and feasted and made merry, fearing no evil, and because of the light of llluin they did not perceive the shadow in the North that was cast from afar by Melkor; for he was grown dark as the Night of the Void. And it is sung that in that feast of the Spring of Arda Tulkas espoused Nessa the sister of Orome, and Vana robed her in her flowers, and she danced before the Valar upon the green grass of Almaren.
Then Tulkas slept, being weary and content, and Melkor deemed that his hour had come. And he passed, therefore, over the Walls of the Night with his host, and he came to Middle-earth in the North; and the Valar were not aware of him.
Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the light of Illuin was dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew nought of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred >{
§32 But at length Melkor returned in secret, and far in the North, where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim, he made a hidden dwelling. Thence he sent forth his power and turned again to evil much that had been well begun}; so that green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, and the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood. {And when he saw his time, Melkor revealed himself, and he made war again on the Valar his brethren; and he threw down the Lamps, and a new darkness fell, and all growth ceased. And in the fall of the Lamps, which were very great, the seas were lifted up in fury, and many lands were drowned. Then the Valar were driven from their abode in Almaren, and they removed from the Middle-earth, and made their home in the uttermost West, in Aman the Blessed, and they fortified it against the onslaught of Melkor. Many mansions they built in that land upon the borders of the world which is since called Valinor, whose western marges fall into the mists of the Outer Sea, and whose fences against the East are the Pelóre Valion, the Mountains of Valinor, highest upon Earth.
Thence they came at last with a great host against Melkor, to wrest from him the rule of the Middle-earth; but he now had grown in malice and in strength and was master of many monsters and evil things, so that they could not at that time overcome him utterly, nor take him captive; and he escaped from their wrath, and lay hid until they had departed. Then he returned to his dwelling in the North, and there built for himself a mighty fortress, and delved great caverns underground secure from assault, and he gathered to him many lesser powers that seeing his greatness and growing strength were now willing to serve him; and the name of that evil fastness was Utumno.} Ai-1W-05 <AAm Then the Valar knew indeed that Melkor was at work again, and they sought for his hiding-place. But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared. And he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and he cast down their pillars, and broke their lamps. Then in the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.
In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwe as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterward they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Iluvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and the gods had no abiding place upon the face of the earth. Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West; and since Melkor had returned to Middle-earth, and they could not yet overcome him, the Valar fortified their dwelling, and upon the shores of the Sea they raised the Pelori, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon earth. And above all the mountains of the Pelori was that height which was called Taniquetil, upon whose summit Manwe set his throne. But behind the walls of the Pelori the Valar established their mansions and their domain in that region which is called Valinor. There in the Guarded Realm they gathered great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many others yet fairer they made anew, and Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed and holy, for the gods dwelt there, and there nought faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
Therefore the Valar and all their folk were joyful again, and for long they were well content, and they came seldom over the mountains to the Outer Lands; and Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Ea.>
From §33 to the end the Ainulidalë can stand as it was edited by Antione. The dubbleing of the second part of §31 came to pass by the changes from Ainulidalë C to Ainulindalë D and is only a small error in the editing process, I have corrected it.
Some remarks to my changes:
Ai-1W-01:
This is only a addition for a more detailed story.

Ai-1W-02:
I replaced “in far Heaven” because it seems to me that it could refer to the Timless Halls of the Ainur. The phrase from AAm is at least much claerer in this respect.

Ai-1W-03
I foundthat it is significant that in AAm Melkor is afraid of Tulkas mirth and anger.

Ai-1W-04
Here we start with the real points. The story of the feast is missing in the Ainulindalë. And also the spies of Melkor with Sauron as their chief. Also we must have the building of Utumno before the war.

Ai-1W-05
In the Ainulindalë the war was much more successful for Melkor: He drove out the Valar that could not even overcome him when they a bit later returned from Valinor. We must provide the later story were Melkor was succesful only in distroying what his brethern had made, but was himself driven into hidding at Utumno by Tulkas and that the Valar could not overcome him because they needed much of their power for the saving of their works.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I think you have discovered the reason that CRT chopped off the end of the Ainulindale and moved that material into "Of the Beginning of Days".

I wonder if this may be the best approach for us as well.

[Findegil]

Yes this might have been the reason for Christopher Tolkien to remove this part of the Ainulindalë. But do we follow him in this move? If we do so it will become even harder to make the additions of Pengoloð to the text of the Music of the Ainur work.
This was also the reason why Antione wanted to join the discussion of the first chapter Of Valinor and the two Trees / Of the Beginning of Days with that of the Ainulindalë and the Valaquenta.

We must ask ourself why did JRR Tolkien place the story of the first War of the Valar at that place and not at the beginning of the Quenta Silmarillion.
As JRR Tolkien left it, the Quenta Silmarillion starts after a short intro with the creation of the Trees which were the ultimate source of the light of the Silmaril. I think that this was desiered by JRR Tolkien.

But that does not force us to do the same. We have already left the real goal and structer of the Quenta Silmarillion far behind by taking up very elaborated tales that do not premarily deal with the story of the Silmarils (e.g. the Narn i chîn Húrin).

But this additions in the later course of the Quenta Silmarillion we will mostly indicat, would we do the same here? I don't think we could do that with out some very artifical source info. Thus I think the First War is better left were it is, an addition to the Ainulindalë "told" by Pengoloð. This would also in some degree prevent the misunderstanding that I had when reading the Sil77, of Melkor leaving Arda two times.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Having now read your additions from the Annals, I tend to agree with them. Unfortunately, I still believe that we cannot use the Yavanna as a tree line in a footnote. I think that if it is not in the main text, then we should drop it.

[Findegil]

It might seem that I am turning up ervry old thread I can find, but well I found a problem:
§42 ... For the Eldar die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered in the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence often they return and are reborn among their children. ... The concept of rebirth was later skip by Tolkien (see "The History of Middle-Earth"; Volume 10: "Morgoth's Ring"; Part Four:"Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth"; Appendix: "'The Converse of Manwë and Eru'" and the later conception of Elvish reincarnation).
I think we should change the sentence thus:§42 ... For the Eldar die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered in the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence often they return and are {reborn among their children}[reincarnated]. ...Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

I found some passage worth considering:
§23 So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of the Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar. And in this work the chief part was taken by Manwë and Aulë and Ulmo. But Melkor, too, was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it, if he might, to his own desires and purposes. AINU_08.5 <MT, 2 After the Valar, who before were the Ainur of the Great Song, entered into Ea, those who were the noblest among them and understood most of the mind of Iluvatar sought amid the immeasurable regions of the Beginning for that place where they should establish the Kingdom of Arda in time to come. And when they had chosen that point and region where it should be, they began the labours that were needed. Others there were, countless to our thought though known each and numbered in the mind of Iluvatar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the Great Tale, amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought. But of these others we know nothing and cannot know, though the Valar of Arda, maybe, remember them all.
Chief of the Valar of Arda was he whom the Eldar afterwards named Manwe, the Blessed: the Elder King, since he was the first of all kings in {[Arda >] }Ea. Brother to him was Melkor, the potent, and he had, as has been told, fallen into pride and desire of his own dominion. Therefore the Valar avoided him, and began the building and ordering of Arda without him. For which reason it is said that whereas there is now great evil in Arda and many things therein are at discord, so that the good of one seemeth to be the hurt of another, nonetheless the foundations of this world are good, and it turns by nature to good, healing itself from within by the power that was set there in its making; and evil in Arda would fail and pass away if it were not renewed from without: that is: that comes from wills and being{ [sic]} that are other than Arda itself.
And as is known well, the prime among these is Melkor. Measureless as were the regions of Ea, yet in the Beginning, where he could have been Master of all that was done - for there were many of the Ainur of the Song willing to follow him and serve him, if he called - still he was not content. And he sought ever for Arda and Manwe, his brother, begrudging him the kingship, small though it might seem to his desire and his potency; for he knew that to that kingship Iluvatar designed to give the highest royalty in Ea, and under the rule of that throne to bring forth the Children of God. And in his thought which deceived him, for the liar shall lie unto himself, he believed that over the Children he might hold absolute sway and be unto them sole lord and master, as he could not be to spirits of his own kind, however subservient to himself. For they knew that the One Is, and must assent to Melkor's rebellion of their own choice; whereas he purposed to withhold from the Children this knowledge and be for ever a shadow between them and the light.
As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. For in his beginning he loved and desired light, and the form that he took was exceedingly bright; and he said in his heart: 'On such brightness as I am the Children shall hardly endure to look; therefore to know of aught else or beyond or even to strain their small minds to conceive of it would not be for their good.' But the lesser brightness that stands before the greater becomes a darkness. And Melkor was jealous, therefore, of all other brightnesses, and wished to take all light unto himself. Therefore Iluvatar, at the entering in of the Valar into Ea, added a theme to the Great Song which was not in it at the first Singing, and he called one of the Ainur to him. Now this was that Spirit which afterwards became Varda (and taking female form became the spouse of Manwe). To Varda Iluvatar said: 'I will give unto thee a parting gift. Thou shalt take into Ea a light that is holy, coming new from Me, unsullied by the thought and lust of Melkor, and with thee it shall enter into Ea, and be in Ea, but not of Ea.' Wherefore Varda is the most holy and revered of all the Valar, and those that name the light of Varda name the love of Ea that Eru has, and they are afraid, less only to name the One. Nonetheless this gift of Iluvatar to the Valar has its own peril, as have all his free gifts: which is in the end no more than to say that they play a part in the Great Tale so that it may be complete; for without peril they would be without power, and the giving would be void.
When therefore at last Melkor discovered the abiding place of Manwe and his friends he went thither in great haste, as a blazing fire. And finding that already great labours had been achieved without his counsel, he was angered, and desired to undo what was done or to alter it according to his own mind>; and he kindled great fires. When therefore Earth was young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the Valar: 'This shall be my own kingdom! And I name it unto myself!'
§24 But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second Theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor; and he called unto himself others of his kin and many spirits both greater and less, and they went down into the fields of Aman and aided Manwë, lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and the Earth should wither ere it flowered. And Manwë said unto Melkor: 'This kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others have laboured here no less than thou.' And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar. AINU-08.7 <MT; 2 But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Ea) and driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda. This is named the First Battle; and though Manwe had the victory, great hurt was done to the work of the Valar> {, and}. But for a time Melkor departed and withdrew to other regions and did there what he would, but he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart.
and
§32 But at length Melkor returned in secret, and far in the North, where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim, he made a hidden dwelling. Thence he sent forth his power and turned again to evil much that had been well begun}; so that green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, and the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood. {And when he saw his time, Melkor revealed himself, and he made war again on the Valar his brethren; and he threw down the Lamps, and a new darkness fell, and all growth ceased. And in the fall of the Lamps, which were very great, the seas were lifted up in fury, and many lands were drowned. Then the Valar were driven from their abode in Almaren, and they removed from the Middle-earth, and made their home in the uttermost West, in Aman the Blessed, and they fortified it against the onslaught of Melkor. Many mansions they built in that land upon the borders of the world which is since called Valinor, whose western marges fall into the mists of the Outer Sea, and whose fences against the East are the Pelóre Valion, the Mountains of Valinor, highest upon Earth.
Thence they came at last with a great host against Melkor, to wrest from him the rule of the Middle-earth; but he now had grown in malice and in strength and was master of many monsters and evil things, so that they could not at that time overcome him utterly, nor take him captive; and he escaped from their wrath, and lay hid until they had departed. Then he returned to his dwelling in the North, and there built for himself a mighty fortress, and delved great caverns underground secure from assault, and he gathered to him many lesser powers that seeing his greatness and growing strength were now willing to serve him; and the name of that evil fastness was Utumno.} Ai-1W-04.5 <MT; 2 The Valar therefore, when they became aware by the signs of evil that were seen upon Earth that Melkor had stolen back, sought in vain for him, though Tulcas and Orome went wide over Middle-earth even to the uttermost East. When they perceived that Melkor would now turn darkness and night to his purposes, as he had aforetime sought to wield flame, they were grieved; for it was a part of their design that there should be change and alteration upon Earth, and neither day perpetual nor night without end.[footnote: For it is indeed of the nature of Ea and the Great History that naught may stay unchanged in time, and things which do so, or appear to do so, or endeavour to remain so, become a weariness, and are loved no longer (or are at best unheeded).] For by Night the Children of Arda should know Day, and perceive and love Light; and yet Night should also in its kind be good and blessed, being a time of repose, and of inward thought; and a vision also of things high and fair that are beyond Arda, but are veiled by the splendour of Anar. But Melkor would make it a time of peril unseen, of fear without form, an uneasy vigil; or a haunted dream, leading through despair to the shadow of Death.> Ai-1W-05 <AAm But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared. And he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and he cast down their pillars, and broke their lamps. Then in the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.

As an aside remark for all that still read once and again here: I am still working in the background. When the project comes back to life again I have some drafts ready. Chapters 1 and an 2 are ready as drafts and I am working in chapter 3 in the moment. Since as a rule I have much more off-line time then on-line time to work on the project, it is much easier to make drafts for new chapters than to produce Appendices from the discussion of chapters that we have finished. Nothless I will try to get my hands on this buissnes as soon I get a bit more free time on-line.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

I bring this old thread up because I think it is the Ainulindalë that we should finish next.

As fare as I can see there are the following problems left:

- Yavanna as a tree. We still have no solution for this. I have to look into this again before I restart any discussion on this topic.
- The placing in our text of the first war: Here at the end of the Ainulindalë or at the beginning of the Silmarillion.
- All the changes introduce by me named Ai-xx-yy. Maédhros did agree to some but not to all. What about the rest and what is about your oppion, Aiwendil.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Aiwendil, Maedhros are you still with me in this project?

I will break another lance for the footnote.

If we consider the original tradition of the text it is like this:
- Rumil writes the Ainulindalë in Valinor.
- Pengoloð reads the Ainulindalë in Valinor.
- Pengoloð makes a copy out of memory of Ainulindalë in exile.
- Pengoloð tells the Ainulindalë and his additions to Ælfwine.
- Ælfwine makes a translation of the Ainulindalë obviously with the copy of Pengoloð in front, but he adds the additions and the frame work of the talk he had with Pengoloð.

In this circumstances the footnote to §19 about the end of the vision of the Valar before the dominion of Men started must either be an after thought of Ælfwine of an verbal aside of Pengoloð which came to Ælfwines memory only after he had finished that passage or a later instruction by Pengoloð when he had read the text for correction or a footnote in Pengoloð copy to make clear that this was not Rumils original text.

Under all this conditions I assume that Pengoloð did read Ælfwines text and did in that way sanction both the footnote to § 19 and the written account of his sight of Yavanna as a tree.

Since we have skipped Ælfwine the tradition of the text must be different:
- Rumil writes the Ainulindalë in Valinor.
- Pengoloð reads the Ainulindalë in Valinor.
- Pengoloð makes a copy out of memory of Ainulindalë in exile.
- Bilbo reads the copy of Pengoloð and makes a translation.

Since we know from late sources that Pengoloð left Middle-earth in the middle of the second age we can be sure that he did not speak with Bilbo. Therefore we must either assume that:
a) Pengoloð made the additions to Rumils work himself or
b) Pengoloð wrote other works which Bilbo combined in his translation or
c) we have another step in the tradition of the text which is similar to Ælfwine, meaning that this unknown scribe talked to Pengoloð, got instructions from him and made the additions to Rumils text when he made a copy.

Under assumption a) the footnote to §19 and the addition of the early history of the Valar in Arda would mean that Pengoloð found these information essential enough to add them to Rumils work.

Under assumption b) Bilbo would be the one to make the footnote and the addition in order to provide the right authorship to the information.

Under assumption c) our text would be a bit artificial since we are only forced to take out frame work of talk because we do not know the scribe by name. Now the footnote to §19 would have again the same meaning as in the old tradition of the text.

It is only under assumption c) that I can see a good reason not to provide the Yavanna as a tree episode in another footnote similar to that in §19. Since here it would be a change of a spoken word of Pengoloð to a written one.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Having given all this a little thought, I find myself wondering: why are we trying to create a veritable, "realistic" Ainulindale when, as Findegil has pointed out, we long ago decided not to create a "real" Quenta Silmarillion? Many of the issues we seem to be dealing with here arise largely or entirely from our demanding that the text we produce be the authentic text produced by a scribe in Middle-earth. Findegil seems already to have hit upon this, but I missed the point:

I am not sure that we can stick to the assumption that what we produce here is the existing Middle-Earth version of the Ainulidalë.

Suppose we were to drop this requirement. Then I think we would have solutions to both major issues:

1. The placement of the first war - the only difficulty here, as I see it, is that we are reluctant to revise an "authentic" Ainulindale with material from AAm. If, on the other hand, our goal were only to create a "true" narrative of events in Arda, there would be nothing wrong with combining two sources, as we have done elsewhere.

2. The whole issue of footnotes - with the stricter goal of creating an authentic text, all of this depends critically upon finding some motivation for the use of footnotes on the part of one of the authors or scribes. If the text is merely a true narrative, then footnotes become merely a matter of style. It would be simple enough, then, to re-structure the 'Yavanna as a tree' sentence to eliminate the first person (either in the body of the text or in a footnote).

Quickly glancing over Findegil's proposed revisions to incorporate AAm, I think they look good. But I must have a more careful look at the texts when I get the chance.

Findegil's revision of §42 to change rebirth to reincarnation also looks good.

[Findegil]

From the start of the work on the Ainulindale I found it starnge that for this one prat of our work we tried to creat a text as it would have existed in Middle-Earth, while for all the rest of project that never was any goal.

Therefore I say the soon we come to abonden that assumption the beter it will be.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Having given all this a little thought, I find myself wondering: why are we trying to create a veritable, "realistic" Ainulindale when, as Findegil has pointed out, we long ago decided not to create a "real" Quenta Silmarillion?
So what we have here is a problem that we solved a long time ago.

Therefore I say the soon we come to abonden that assumption the beter it will be.
That is fine by me.

[Maédhros]

Findegil, having read your addtions, I must say:

Ai-1W-01
I would change:
The war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth, and for long Melkor had the upper hand. Ai-1W-01 <AAm {And Melkor}[He] wrought great ruin with fire and deadly cold and marred all that the other Valar made.>
I would replace and melkor, because in the previous sentence we already are speaking about him.

All of the others, seems ok to me.

But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And {I myself, long years agone,} some in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.
As I have already posted, I really like this. Are you ok with this Findegil?

Findegil, I noticed that you have this in the file:
. AINU-09 But{ think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the AINU-10 Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful.{ And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.}[Footnote: <And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.> [Quoth Pengoloð]]
Isn't Aiwendil's suggestion less intrusive?

It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither we know not. Whereas the Eldar remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and poignant, therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. Memory is our burden. For the Eldar die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered in the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence often they return and are {reborn among their children}[reincarnated].
Ok, with this also.

[Findegil]

Ai-1W-01: Agreed.

Yavanna as a tree:
I still hesitate to agree to Aiwendils suggestion. It is changing the personal expierience of Pengolodh to that of some unknow group. If you are both adamant on not using it as an footnote (still do not quiet understand the reason for this), then I would suggest this:But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar. Thus we would hold the personal touch and make hint at Pengolodh since only he would mention "the land of the Valar.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

If you are both adamant on not using it as an footnote (still do not quiet understand the reason for this)

My objection is not to a footnote as such but rather to the use of the first person. These problems arise regardless of whether we are ostensibly constructing the "real" Ainulindale or not.

Insofar as your objection to my proposal is that it emends a single reported sighting of Yavanna as a tree into multiple such reports, we might try:

But {think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are [not] at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And {I myself}, long years gone, in the land of the Valar {have seen} Yavanna [has been seen] in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:My objection is not to a footnote as such but rather to the use of the first person. These problems arise regardless of whether we are ostensibly constructing the "real" Ainulindale or not. So we have at long last found the core of the problem. Could you be more specific what is wrong for you with the first person, assuming that we would move the scene into a footnote ascribed to Pengolodh?
I can understand the awakwardness of the first person within the text and therefore find your last suggestion better then my own, but still I would like to understand fully why we do not keep Pengolodh as the source.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Even so I did not (yet) fully understand way the perosnal experience of Pengolodh is removed I agree to do so and we will take Aiwendils last suggestion.

Therefore this chapter is done.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello, after revising and compare this Ainulindale with mine, first of all I decided to edite the text with the idea of QS77 but with some differences. The words of Pengolodh were distributed in the Valaquenta, the first chapter of QS "Of the beggining of Time", and the second "Of Valinor and the Two Trees". But in general, the 95% of text more or less is the same, with a different reconstruction. As the information is the same I don't think necesary to say here. (And it would be very difficult to me, because I wasn't proffesional editing, and don't have annotated the source paragraphs like you.

I only would like to point that I had changed some "Worlds" by "Eäs", and "Earths" by "Ardas", from the passage Ilúvatar says "Eä, the World that Is".

And a possible addition:

§25 But the Valar now took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn thither by love for the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar; save only in majesty and splendour, for they are mighty and holy. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge and desire of {the} visible {World}[Eä], rather than of {the World}[Eä] itself, and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk unclad, as it were, and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be present. But when they clad themselves the Valar arrayed them in the form some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice; even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment, but is not made thereby. Words, Phrases and Passages- Eldarin roots and stems, PE17, <The fanar <taken from above[or "raiment"]> of the Great Valar were said, by the Elves who had dwelt in Valinor, usually to have {had} a stature greater than that of tallest Elves, and when performing some great deed, or issuing great commands, to {have assumed} assume an awe-inspiring heigth.>
And Manwë and Ulmo and Aulë were as Kings; but Varda was the Queen of the Valar,{ and the spouse of Manwë,} and her beauty was high and terrible and of great reverence. {Yavanna was her sister, and Yavanna espoused Aulë; but Nienna dwells alone, even as does Ulmo. And these with Melkor are the Seven Great Ones of the Kingdom of Arda.} AINU-09 But{ think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the AINU-10 Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful.

Some {} are because for me are redundant.

Greetings

[Findegil]

That is a good find! I like that addition of yours. And will number it for easier reference as Ainu-08.8. But I am not sure that we need to change the time as Gondowe did.

What do other say?

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

As I said in the introduction thread, were I gave the intro to the Appendix, I will provide what I did further on the Appendix:Ainulindalë
The basic text in this chapter is taken from Ainulindalë text D given in HoM-E 10. The necessary additions were limited. Most of them are small points of detail. Only the story of the First War of the Valar was taken out of the Annals of Aman found in HoM-E 11.
As the groupe deciseded that the framestory of Eriol / Ælfwine would not be used all reverence to Eriol in the text of the Ainulindalë were skipt. Rúmil of Túna and Pengolodh the Sage remained as writers or commentators to the text.
One mayor point of discussion was the arnagement of the text. We did consider to follow Christopher Tolkiens lead and move the words of Pengolodh concerning the coming of the Valar and their First War to the first chapter of the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’. The main argument for this movment is the straight forward chronology. But in the end the argument prevailed that the Quenta deals with the Silmaril and the real beginning of that story line is the making of the trees which is recounted at the start of the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’.
In addition there was the issue of Pengolodh giving an verbal side note to Ælfwine about Yavanna seen by him as a tree. The nice and pictural remark that provided an information not given elsewere motivated all members to keep that passage in some way. But as it contained direct speech to Ælfwine it was clear that we had to change it. The real motive behind the arguments were only late in the discussion revealed and so many a possible solution was proposed without any real chance of success.
Aiwendil and Maedhros suggested to incooperat the passage into the text, by deleting the indications of the spoken communication. This would mean to make the observer of scene unkown and to give the actuel wording to Rumil. The advantage is that we hold the passage as a part of the text.
Antoine and Findegil suggested to move the passage into a footnote. The advantage is that we could leave the passage in the mouth of Pengolodh without to much emendations in the passage itself. The disadvantage is that we lift a spoken word of Pengolodh to a writen word a scribed to or written by Pengoloð and that we creat a textual footnote (in contrast to editorial footnotes) which we have avioded.
Later it came out that Aiwendils concern was exactly the first person reporting of the sight and not so much the footnote. Therefore, even so Aiwendil never explained his concerns in more detail in the end the Yavanna as a tree passage was taken into the body of the text.
Further details:
In §15 Tolkien left "Halls of Aman" unchanged so he in all other places changed it to "Halls of Eä". We considered that as a slip of the pen and changed it consitent with the rest of the text.
In §16 Tolkien left in the passage about Aulë same verbs in present tense, while all the serounding was changed to past tense. We considere that also a slip of the pen and changed it to past tense.
In §17 we added from the C text of the Ainulindalë "Behold the towers and mansions of ice!" since we thought that it was lost without intention.
In the §'s 23 and 24 we have take up passages from Myths Transformed in HoM-E 10 dealing with the first establishment of the kingdom of Arda and the first strife of Melkor with the other Valar. Even so Myths Transformed dealed mostly with the round earth changes, we found that the changed motives and additional details in these passages should not be lost to our flat earth version.
In §25 we took up a passage from Words, Phrases and Passages- Eldarin roots and stems, Parma Eldalamberon no. 17 dealing with the fanar of the Valar and their stature.
In §32 we added a passage from Myths Transformed in HoM-E 10 that dealt with the grive of the Valar seeing that Melkor had turned darkness and night to time of fright. Its content is not fully compatible with the story of the lamps and their aferlasting light during the spring of Arda, but we nonetheless found it essential enough to add it.
Especially the last point mentioned might be worth reconsidering.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

It seems that we never actually discussed the changes in §25 and §32. I like them both in principle, but I think we may need to work harder to integrate them into the text. I will have a careful look at them tonight if I can.

But I think you are right in your last point: we can scarcely say 'it was a part of their design that there should be change and alteration upon Earth, and neither day perpetual nor night without end' when we are dealing with the very part of the story where they have put into effect their plan for perpetual day under the Lamps.

[Aiwendil]

After looking back at this again, I realize that we never actually came to a decision on what to do with the material concerning the first war, the Lamps, and the making of Valinor - whether to place it in the Ainulindale or in the first chapter of the Silmarillion. Since we are not constructing a 'veritable' Ainulindale (nor Quenta Silmarillion), perhaps we need not worry too much about that. I do think that the one thing to avoid is tell of the first war twice; that is, we should have a single account built out of the AAm, LQ, the Ainulindale, and any other pertinent texts.

If we decide to put this material in the Ainulindale, though, it isn't immediately obvious - at least, it isn't to me - where the break should go. There's overlap here among the Ainulindale D, AAm, and LQ. Indeed, I think we've largely overlooked until now the fact that LQ also has an account of this part of the history - though Antoine seems to have fully grokked that fact, and I now think his suggestion that we should consider the Ainulindale together with chapter 1 of the Quenta Silmarillion made a lot of sense. For whatever we decide here will have implications for that chapter. If we decide to incorporate everything up to the building of Valinor into the Ainulindale (which is as far as the Ainulindale D goes), then if we want to avoid repeating the same material twice, we will have no 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' left!

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to put the material in question in the first chapter of the QS. That way we avoid the awkwardness of determining a chapter break, and QS chapter 1 can be constructed out of LQ, AAm, and the Ainulindale so as to most completely tell the story of those early ages. I think in the end it turns out that Christopher Tolkien made a very wise decision in doing essentially that.

Matters would be very different if we were trying to construct the 'real' Ainulindale and the Quenta Silmarillion. In that case, it would make perfect sense for the story to be told in both texts; and in that case, the argument that the QS should move immediately to the Two Trees, the source of the light of the Silmarils, would have force. But since our goal is a complete history, those concerns don't really apply.

Findegil, earlier you expressed a preference for putting this material in the Ainulindale. Do you still hold this opinion? If so, can you explain your reasoning?

As for AINU-08.8, looking at it again I think Gondowe's proposal is good as it is. I'm holding off on diving too deeply into the other un-discussed changes (partially because I now think they should wait until we take up 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees').

[gondowe]

Hello Aiwendil and Findegil is nice to see that you are still going on. I am very very busy and with not much time but always thinking in our loved professor.
As you can see in the chapter structure in the thread about my spanish project, I introduced a first chapter that called "Of the beginning of time" (extracted from the first one of the Annals of Aman) where is told the story previous the Two Trees, with the texts from Ainulindale, AAm, etc. That was a good idea of Christopher Tolkien.
So I'm right with Aiwendil about that point.

Greetings.

[Findegil]

As my proposal 1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees (unposted here since we wanted to check all chapters that we finished so far first) goes, it has lot repeating from The Ainulindale. The focus is changed a bit and therefore I found it bearable. In The Ainulindale the focus lies more on the Legend up to the War of the Lamps and the building of Valinor is only shortly mentioned, while in 1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees the Legend up to the War of Lampy is only recounted in short and the building of Valinor greatly expanded.

This looks okay for me if both The Ainulindale and Silmarillion are considered as single works. But if we take them as an entity it might be better to avoid any repeatition. The Only problem is that we have in our structure The Valaquenta in between. Therefore I agree that it is better to take up the full History of Arda into the Silmarillion if we want aviod repeatition.

The question is then were we make the split. Christopher Tolkien does make it at the begining of the words of Pengolodh. But to avoid repeatition completle this seems to late. I would make the split thus:§23 So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of the Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar. And in this work the chief part was taken by Manwë and Aulë and Ulmo. But Melkor, too, was there AINU-08.2{from the first}<soon>, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it, if he might, to his own desires and purposesAINU-08.3.{; and he kindled great fires. When therefore Earth was young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the Valar: 'This shall be my own kingdom! And I name it unto myself!'
§24 But Manwë was the brother of Melkor ...
§25 But the Valar now took to themselves ...
§26 And behold! ...
§27 Thus began the first battle ...
§28 But of all such matters, ...

Here are the words of Pengoloð to Ælfwine

§29 And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, ...
§30 And Pengoloð answered: ...
§31 This tale {I have heard ...
§32 But at length Melkor returned in secret, ...
§33 Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, ...
§34 But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, ...
§35 And in the midst of the Blessed Realm ...
§36 But Manwë Súlimo, ...
§37 But Ulmo was alone, ...
§38 And in that time of dark ... and even the heart of Melkor himself was shaken, foreboding the wrath to come.}
§39 AINU-16 Now all is said{ to thee, Ælfwine, for this present,} concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the time before days and ere the world became such as the Children have known it.{ Of these thou hast not asked, but a little I will say and so make an end.} For Elves and Men are the Children; and since they understood not fully that theme by which they entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion. For which reason the Valar are to these kindreds rather their elders and their chieftains than their masters; and if ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, this has seldom turned to good, howsoever good the intent. The dealings of the Ainur have been mostly with the Elves, for Ilúvatar made the Eldar more like in nature to the Ainur, though less in might and stature, whereas to Men he gave strange gifts.
§40 For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke, and he said: 'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Eldar and the Atani! But the Eldar shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani (which are Men) I will give a new gift.'
§41 Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.
§42 But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: 'These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' Yet we of the Eldar believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar. For it seems to us that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, and yet he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither we know not. Whereas the Eldar remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and poignant, therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. Memory is our burden. For the Eldar die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered in the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence often they return and are {reborn among their children}[reincarnated]. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the World (it is said); wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar said unto us that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur, whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

AINU-17 <End of the Ainulindalë {spoken}[written] by Rúmil {to Ælfwine}.>Once we agree were we set the end of The Ainulindale I will try to make a proposal for the first chapter (or chapters) of The Silmarillon. I have the feeling that it might be neccessary to use the headline that Chirstofer Tolkien used in Sil77: Of the Beginning of Days to collect all the material that we have to transfer.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Greetings, Gondowe! Good to see you.

But to avoid repeatition completle this seems to late. I would make the split thus:

Just to make sure I understand - is your proposal then to put the split just before §23 of the Ainulindale? That is, end the Ainulindale with §22 and move the rest into QS chapter 1? I suppose that seems reasonable. Of course, that interrupts the flow of the text, but I doubt that can be avoided. I wonder if it would be taking too great a liberty, though, to take the first sentence of §23 as the end of our Ainulindale; for it really does follow on from the end of §22, and it reads a good deal better as the final sentence of a chapter.

I too have a proposal for an 'Of the Beginning of Days'/'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' that I put together a few years ago. I believe that in my verison I assumed that the Ainulindale would go up to §28, so I incorporated only material from §29 to the end of Ainulindale D. But adding in pertinent material from §23 to §28 should not be difficult. It will be interesting to compare your version and mine!

But before we do that, I think we should return to the other finished chapters that I have notes on.

[gondowe]

Well is too difficult compare the inner text of both versions, mine and yours but with the different reconstruction of the phrases, and some minor differences in the insertions of the external paragraphs, if it could be of help, broadly, my Ainulindale is from §1 to §28, and the then the words of Pengolodh stars form §39 till the end. The rest is inserted in the Chapter one of QS "Of the beginning of time".

Greetings

[Findegil]

Gondowe, it is nice to have your input to the project. Sorry for not greeting you in my last post, but even so there were 45 minutes in between, I think it was a matter of cross posting. This one took a long time to write.

Aiwendil, my proposal for the split was at AINU-08.3, which is in the middle of sentence 2 of §23. In our original editing at this point we inserted a § from Mhyts Transformed, which I suppose would make a good starting point for the new chapter as it reads:After the Valar, who before were the Ainur of the Great Song, entered into Eä, those who were the noblest among them and understood most of the mind of Ilúvatar sought amid the immeasurable regions of the Beginning for that place where they should establish the Kingdom of Arda in time to come. And ...But I would end The Ainulindale with §§ 39-42 because they clearly belong into this chapter.

Posted by Aiwendil:I too have a proposal for an 'Of the Beginning of Days'/'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' that I put together a few years ago. I believe that in my verison I assumed that the Ainulindale would go up to §28, so I incorporated only material from §29 to the end of Ainulindale D. But adding in pertinent material from §23 to §28 should not be difficult. It will be interesting to compare your version and mine!Yes, that will become an intersting work! As it has been when I treid to bring the proposals Maedhros and me for The Ruin of Doriath together. If you are willing to provide me with your proposal, I will make both versions comparable for the public forum.

Posted by Aiwendil:But before we do that, I think we should return to the other finished chapters that I have notes on. Agreed, and first of all we should finish our discussion here on The Ainulindale.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

my Ainulindale is from §1 to §28, and the then the words of Pengolodh stars form §39 till the end.

I see. Similar to that in QS77, then, which sounds pretty reasonable.

Aiwendil, my proposal for the split was at AINU-08.3, which is in the middle of sentence 2 of §23.

But I would end The Ainulindale with §§ 39-42 because they clearly belong into this chapter.


Ah, okay; I understand now. And I agree that §§39-42 belong in this chapter, regardless of where the split is made. So I think we are in agreement here.

Agreed, and first of all we should finish our discussion here on The Ainulindale.

I think that I actually have no more comments on this chapter, and as far as I can see, all issues have been resolved. I will wait until we start on 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' to address the additions to §§ 23-38, since they will be in that chapter now.

Looking back, I do see that perhaps I never fully communicated to you what my concern was about the 'Yavanna as a tree' thing. Essentially, my objection to the passage is only that since we have removed the implicit frame-story, as it were, of Pengolodh speaking to Aelfwine, we must remove also the asides made by Pengolodh, and the references he makes to his own experiences - either by deleting them or by integrating them into the more neutral, third-person narration.

But perhaps, if we are going to revisit that issue, it should also wait for 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees', since that is where the passage will go according to our current plan.

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:Looking back, I do see that perhaps I never fully communicated to you what my concern was about the 'Yavanna as a tree' thing. Essentially, my objection to the passage is only that since we have removed the implicit frame-story, as it were, of Pengolodh speaking to Aelfwine, we must remove also the asides made by Pengolodh, and the references he makes to his own experiences - either by deleting them or by integrating them into the more neutral, third-person narration. Thanks for explianing. For me the Pengolodh asides were okay, becuase I thought of the text as written down in Middle-Earth by Pengolodh out of his memory of a text written by Rúmil.But perhaps, if we are going to revisit that issue, it should also wait for 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees', since that is where the passage will go according to our current plan.Agreed, but up to now I am okay with the solution we have found. Anyhow this chapter seems down for the moment.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Prepaering the text for I found that we have to change Ainu-02:
As it is now we skipt all the words of Pengolodh so I think we have to skip them as well from the headline:The Music of the
Ainur
AINU-01 This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days.
AINU-02 {It is here written as it was spoken in
Eressëa to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage. To it
are added the further words that Pengoloð
spoke at that time concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani;
of which more is said hereafter.


The Music of the Ainur
and the Coming of the Valar

These are the words that Pengoloð spake to Ælfwine concerning the beginning of the World. First he recited to him the Ainulindalë as Rúmil made it.}
§1 There was Ilúvatar, the All-father, ...Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

[I see. Similar to that in QS77, then, which sounds pretty reasonable.]

But QS77 does not end with §28? I mean my Ainulindale ends with §39 to §42.

[I think that I actually have no more comments on this chapter, and as far as I can see, all issues have been resolved. I will wait until we start on 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' to address the additions to §§ 23-38, since they will be in that chapter now.]

Does it mean that you are not agreed with the insert of a previous chapter one (Of the beginnig of time/days)?

[Looking back, I do see that perhaps I never fully communicated to you what my concern was about the 'Yavanna as a tree' thing. Essentially, my objection to the passage is only that since we have removed the implicit frame-story, as it were, of Pengolodh speaking to Aelfwine, we must remove also the asides made by Pengolodh, and the references he makes to his own experiences - either by deleting them or by integrating them into the more neutral, third-person narration.]

If it helps, that passage and others (the most from TBoLT) were inserted by me in the Valaquenta, that one in the description of Yavanna. In third-person.

Sorry but I don't know why not quote the sentences right

Greetings

[Aiwendil]

But QS77 does not end with §28? I mean my Ainulindale ends with §39 to §42.

You're right, I'd forgotten that QS77 moved the 'Gift of Men' material as well.

Does it mean that you are not agreed with the insert of a previous chapter one (Of the beginnig of time/days)?


Well, when I wrote that I had not yet considered the possibility (raised by Findegil in the 'outline' thread) of splitting 'Of the Beginning of Time' (or 'Days') apart from 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees'. But regardless of whether we do split those chapters, we should probably tackle both of them at the same time, and hold off on considering the changes to §§ 23-38 until then.

Sorry but I don't know why not quote the sentences right


Format the quotes like this:

[ QUOTE ]Sorry but I don't know why not quote the sentences right[ /QUOTE ]

. . . except remove the spaces between the before and after the brackets [ and ].

As it is now we skipt all the words of Pengolodh so I think we have to skip them as well from the headline

Since we have decided that we aren't creating the 'veritable' Ainulindale, I wonder whether the heading saying that it was made by Rumil should be omitted as well. But it's a small point, since even if we don't have the true Ainulindale of Rumil, we have something very much like it and clearly based on it.

[Arvegil145]

I found a passage that I don't recall was discussed before:

And Manwë and Ulmo and Aulë were as Kings; but
Varda was the Queen of the Valar, and the spouse of Manwë,
and her beauty was high and terrible and of great reverence.
Yavanna was her sister, and Yavanna espoused Aulë; but
Nienna dwells alone, even as does Ulmo. And these with
Melkor are the Seven Great Ones of the Kingdom of Arda.

In the later mythology, as far as I remember, Yavanna is not the sister of Varda.

Also, the Aratar are eight (or nine, if Melkor is included) - Oromë and Mandos are missing here.


One more thing - what about the passages from the Myths Transformed, that were proposed in an earlier post?

[Findegil]

Yavanna sister of Varda: If a fact is not mentioned it does not necessarily meant that is no longer true. Or have we overlooked a plain statement that gainsaid the two beign 'siblings'?

Eight (Nine) Aratar: Could you provide us with a quote for that? I can search myself, but since you seem to remember the fact, you may find it much easier.

The passages from Myths transformed were added in the part of text that is not in Ainulidale proper but in the additional talk of Pengolodh to Ælfwine. Since we in the end moved that material to the first chapter/chapters of the Quenta Simalrillion we stoped discussing them here. You could take them as still under consideration.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

The War of the Jewels: Quendi and Eldar - Note on the "Language of the Valar"

The element maxan, said to mean 'authority, authoritative decision', was also used in the form Máhan, one of the eight chiefs of the Valar, usually translated as Aratar.

Here it is explicit that there were eight of the Aratar.


Another quote taken from Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Phase II - Valaquenta. This is a commentary by Christopher Tolkien on the statement in the Valaquenta that there are "Seven Great Ones of the Realm of Arda":

At the end of the account of the Valar and Valier appears the name and conception of the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda, of whom there are eight after the removal of Melkor. This contrasts with the conception of 'the Seven Great Ones of the Realm of Arda' (p. 147, §10a), among whom Melkor is numbered, but not Oromë, nor Mandos.


Concerning Yavanna and Varda being siblings:

The statement in §5 that Yavanna is the sister of Varda does not appear in QS, but it was merely derived from that in QS §8, that Vána is 'the younger sister of Varda and Palúrien'. This goes back to Q (IV. 79, 167), but no further. Varda and Yavanna were still sisters in AAm (p. 49, §3), but the idea was abandoned in corrections to LQ 2.

This is also from Morgoth's Ring - it is found in The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Phase I; it is a comment by Christopher Tolkien found in the notes of the Chapter I: Of the Valar.

[Findegil]

Thanks for providing these info. It looks like we have to do a complete cross check between our text and notes providing the development from LQ1 (which seems to be the basic text of our editing) to the Valaquenta of [B]Sil77[b].

Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: It seems how ever we work on a text some erros are unavoidable. Once I did such a development of the text from LQ1 to LQ2 silently and confused the group so that I had to rework it with editing marks for each and every change. In this case it seems that it was forgotten completly with equaly unwanted result. (From a glimps into my draft of the first chapters of the Quenta Silamrillion it looks luckily as if I have done well there.)

[Arvegil145]

One question just sprang up in my mind - have you included the part of the Myths Transformed where Manwë finds that Melkor has fallen and has been weakened, and when he feigns to repent when the Valar storm Utumno?

[Findegil]

Yes, it is included in my draft version of the chapter Of the Coming of the Elves.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Yes, it is included in my draft version of the chapter Of the Coming of the Elves.

I am asking because I did not. I DID want to include it, and I thought it pitiable that it was excluded from my version - however, as much as I wanted, I could not find a way to incorporate it without resorting to a heavy rewording - basically, when I was finished revising it, I realized there were more words and sentences coming from me than from Tolkien - hence, I excluded it. I know this thread isn't exactly the best place to debate Of the Coming of the Elves but I am very curious about your version - maybe it could still be salvaged.

[Findegil]

After preforming the comparison between our Valaquenta-text and that of LQ1/2 and Sil77. I found out that Arvegil145 was reffering to a passages in what will become Of the Begining of Time, when he said that we have to change the 7 great once.:rolleyes:

Well that makes think easier. I think at this point the narative we will simply delet the passages and I have incooperated that change into my draft.

About Of the coming of the Elves: well, as said before, making a draft is easy but does not prove that it will be found incooperatable by the group. I am not going to produce my draft here right now. This is clearly the wrong place and it is the wrong time as I am already spend to much time on the other activities here. The chapter is a wild mixture of text from very diffrent sources. I had to changes tens often in MT passages, but I was never forced to rewrite a sentence. But I did not use these passages as solid block.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

I am asking because I did not. I DID want to include it, and I thought it pitiable that it was excluded from my version - however, as much as I wanted, I could not find a way to incorporate it without resorting to a heavy rewording - basically, when I was finished revising it, I realized there were more words and sentences coming from me than from Tolkien - hence, I excluded it. I know this thread isn't exactly the best place to debate Of the Coming of the Elves but I am very curious about your version - maybe it could still be salvaged.

I agree with you, at last there must be very much rewording, so it's better not to include it.

As for the Aratar and Yavanna and Varda I had the "correct" status in my project (eight and not sisters), but we have to retake the chapters to make common texts, it's a very hard work.

Greetings

[Arvegil145]

I agree with you, at last there must be very much rewording, so it's better not to include it.

As for the Aratar and Yavanna and Varda I had the "correct" status in my project (eight and not sisters), but we have to retake the chapters to make common texts, it's a very hard work.

Greetings

Greetings to you as well, gondowe!

I am of opinion that certain essays found in the Myths Transformed should be included in Volume III of TftE, but I will try again, nonetheless, to incorporate the alternative version of The War for the Sake of the Elves.

Also, I will post an outline for the second and third volume of TftE as soon as I am available.

[gondowe]

I could say that everything, every text, that, in my opinion could be used, was used by me. But inserted in the corpus of the First Age volume. Except that Of Aman ( that is time undefinible), I don´t remember now any text usable in the third volume.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Posted by Arvegil:I will try again, nonetheless, to incorporate the alternative version of The War for the Sake of the Elves.Doing this would nearly forsure generate a lot of unneccessary work of comparision once we come to discuss that chapter. If you are really that much interrested in that particular chapter we can take it as the next item to work on and I can put forward my draft here as soon as I find some time (probabaly in the Long run of next week).

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Also, have you included Morwë and Nurwë in The Coming of the Elves?

[Findegil]

Yes, I included Morwë and Nurwë, so I think this will need discussuion once we reach that point.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gandalf85]

It's pretty crazy how old this thread is and how long this project has been ongoing. I read through the Ainulindale chapter, I only have minor comments.

1) In §20 the "flame imperishable" is lowercase. This is how it is in Morgoth's Ring, but everywhere Tolkien capitalized it. I think we should capitalize it here to be consistent.

2) In §26 there is a reference to "the Eä". It looks like this was changed from "the World". I can't find any instances of Tolkien using "the" before Eä, I think we should remove "the".

[Findegil]

It's pretty crazy how old this thread is ... To be sure this is by fare not the oldest thread!

I agree to both changes. Just to make it easier to find ‘the Eä’ is in §23 not §26.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

Oops, yes I meant §23.