Orcish Fear

[HerenIstarion]

Newly Deceased
Posts: 3

The topic started by Arathorn II reminded me of another interesting problem - what about orcs? some hints are there, that they were elves by origin, tortuted by Bauglir.

All the notes of JRRT himself differ in this case - what about orcs - do they have fëa, or are even less developed than mere kelvar? All of those orcish leaders, having some tactical independence and criticising their lords (Shagrat, Gorbag, Grishnakh, Saruman's uruks) prove as it seems, that orcs must have some kind of free will. On the other hand, the whole mass of ordinary orcs have no will of their own at all, it seems. It's well understood why - Dark Lord needs no free subjects, but slaves. But if orcs had not fëar, it would be impossible for them to survive when their master were gone for a while (after losing his Ring), for they would be like leaderless ants. Yet we see them acting more or less without Sauron (not all the time, but when Sauron is actually gone). It would be great to hear what you have to say about this problem :)

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 82</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Orcs as corrupted elves.
Problems here, not only from Tolkien's own conception (which changed later), but story internal also.
If Orcs are corrupted Elves, then upon death they would travel to the halls of Mandos. We now come upon the re-housing problem for those who realize the 'error' of their ways. The Hroa is in accord with the fea's rememberance of it. Anything else would be unnatural, so; same bodies upon re-housing. Some could argue that they were corruptions, but of the orcs born as orcs, what of them? They have no other rememberance, nor real choice in development. That's alot of fear to submit to Eru for re-birth in other bodies as children to escape this problem of natural affinity. This addresses only some of the problems associated with this idea.

Orcs as Beasts.
No problems of Fea and Hroa really. Nothing more than trained monkeys who mimic speech like parrots. Is this workable? To 'some' degree. Front-line troops, garrisons, etc are fine for this. Halls of Mandos are left out of the equation, so no need to delve into re-housing, re-birth, etc. Do orcs exhibit some degree of intelligence? Yes. Could 'trained monkeys' develop this intelligence after centuries? Possibly.

Orcs as Maiar.
No problems with Fea/Hroa situation. Could Maiar show the level of basic intelligence and speech that is evidenced in orcs? Really dumb Maiar I suppose.

Orcs as Men.
Still no real problems with fea/hroa situation as Men go elsewhere not known to elves. Intelligence levels would be comparable in the environment.

I believe this may be why Tolkien seems to have decided that there were various forms of orcs.
Maia forms as strong leaders.
Mannish/and possibly Elvish (although Tolkien doubts that elves were corrupted so) forms to control the numerous troops.
Beast forms to make up the bulk of the armies.

Since there are interbreedings between Orcs and men in LOTR (Saruman's troops etc) then orcs MUST have some compatability with men, which removes the idea of ALL orcs as beasts.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 102</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Excellent points about Hroa/Fea and interbreeding. I never thought of that. I recognize that JRRT grew to dislike corrupted elves as orcs, but men as orcs screws up the timeline (orcs appeared before men awoke in the Sil., which could have been changed if JRRT ever got around to it). Also there's the &quot;bad old times&quot; conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat which seems to refer to either the seige of Barad Dur or even of Angband. Different origins works though. The captain of the orcs during the First Age was supposed to be a Maia (Baldog I think his name was).

Mithadan
The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan</A> at: 9/27/00 4:07:05 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Newly Deceased
Posts: 4
Re: Orcish Fëar

I want to add some points that I missed in the first posting. For one, orcs - 'corrupted elves' must have been hating their Dark Lord for that corruption. Another point is that killing of such elf-orc must be considered not as murder of kelvar, but as release of fëa out of deceased hroa. Further comments concern Saulotus’ reply.

I do agree about different breeds of orcs, and accept that maybe some of orcish hroar were inhabited by corrupted Maiar spirits (why not, if even some beasts were possesed? e.g. Draugluin and others). But I don’t think men were used to produce orcs by Dark Lord himself . Saruman invented that first, I deem. As for Man-Orc compatability, tis clear, that not beast breed was used for those experiments, as Saruman’s Uruks had stronger wills (and bodies, too) than northern race. On the other hand there is no proof that orcs used were of the human origin, cause elf-orcs must have been equally compatible genetically, since human and elven hroar were same (otherwise the birth of Dior Thingol’s Heir would be impossible)

It is important to remember also that houseless fëar were not brought, but summoned to Mandos, so it is possible that corrupted elforcish fea (if not repenting) wouldn’t go there by it’s own will, but remain houseless in a form of some sort of ghost or wraith (remember Sharku’s shadow going west at first? Of course, he was a maia, but bieng in a hroa for centuries he got some aspects of a Children kind of a creature)

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 429</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> it is possible that corrupted elforcish fea (if not repenting) wouldn't go there by it's own will, but remain houseless in a form of some sort of ghost or wraith<hr></blockquote>Perhaps this is where the wights of Tyrn Gorthad come from. On a side note, whenever I see &quot;fear&quot; in these threads I think of something being scared. &quot;Orcish fear? Of course Orcs get afraid, look at how that reacted to Biter and Beater.&quot; Silly me.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000062>burrahobbit</A> at: 9/27/00 7:21:41 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Newly Deceased
Posts: 6
Re: Orcish Fëar

No, wights of tyrn must have been cardolanian highmen

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 86</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

In the timeline established with the orc/beast/men thing, Men are stated as awaking SECOND of the Children, not third. This is important, as it is also confirmed in OF DWARVES AND MEN. Dwarves are stated as being seen as early as 1250 VY.

The elves marched from Cuivienen in great rains. Men awoke in the great rains on an island and did not leave it until the rains and flooding of the area subsided. This places the awakening of men around 1190 VY or thereabouts. This is enough time for Melkor to discover men, capture and corrupt to his service some (as evidenced in ATHRABETH) before his chaining. On the 144 year conversion that Tolkien develops; this amounts to something like nearly 300 years of worship under Melkor before the siege of Utumno begins.

Of what consequence these rains are to the biblical Noah story is unknown.

Men as orcs does not screw up the timeline except in the traditional SILMARILLION sense.

Elves as orc stock is ruled out with fair certainty by Tolkien finally at the end.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 104</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Ah! You're talking revisionist or updated Silmarillion. As published, elves wake first, dwarves wake second during Morgoth's captivity, and men wake last at the rising of the sun (ignoring round earth issues or mannish vs. elvish perspective). I always thought that a few hundred years was too little for man to wake, advance, learn languages and some semblance of culture/technology, and travel to Beleriand. Still doesn't explain the Shagrat/Gorbag dialogue though. I always thought that JRRT's desire to avoid corrupted elves as orcs would be one of those issues where what was published would override his desire to revise.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 92</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

I'm taking the position of round earth which is verified from many sources, yes. But I am ALSO taking the intent and statement of Tolkien established in ANADUNE and carried forth in subsequent revisions (accompanied by letters of the time and afterward) that it was always round.

They go hand in hand.

If you choose to call that revisionist, then I stand with Tolkien in his 'revisionism' with pride.
Although it seems to me that in trying to piece information in, and disregarding text that doesn't fit the old models, the term revisionist is backflowing to the originator.

Examining an oft quoted text such as OF DWARVES AND MEN gives a perfect example.
They will cite information selectively from it, but hold the text as unacceptable because it damages too much of the old text.
Who's truly revising here really?

They are trying to window dress old text that in places has been abandoned or altered as shown clearly from the (to them) unacceptable sources they are pulling from. These are the creators of differing mythologies, not Tolkien.

By exemplication of comparison: they are trying to hold the text of HISTORY of LOTR as canon (RETURN OF THE SHADOW, TREASON OF ISENGARD, WAR OF THE RING, SAURON DEFEATED), while pulling information from the finished LOTR, and rejecting passages that contradict this 'established' canon.

As for what is published in LOTR concerning elvish orcs, the conclusions are stated as only assumptions by the elves.
Look again.

Concerning the 'Bad ol days', this could have valid applications several ways.
1 They were present. (Possible if the corruption of fea/hroa is strong enough to have been rendered unnatural and against Eru's law; see sorcerors, wizards, deadmen of dunharrow for other examples of extended time in Arda)

2 They were not present. (Also possible, as statements are made that are carry-overs or references to/from bygone eras. See 'those were they good ol days', 'in the days of yore', 'once upon a time' etc.)

This does not examine the possible applications from learned speech patterns (beasts), orcish mythology, possible references to a time of indirect control of a dark lord, or other scenarios.


</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Newly Deceased
Posts: 9
Re: Orcish Fear

I know Tolkien himself changed his opinion about orc origin putting in men, and there were some points of men serving Bauglir becoming like orcs after some generations. but I for myself want to keep Silmarillion point of view and add such not 'source backed' argument as special kind of hatred between orcs and elves.

It's my personal opinion, of course, but I deem one would hate his evil brother more than some distant evil stranger. Looking at elves, orcs were watching what they might have been if not Morgoth, so they hated elves more than other living creatures. On the other hand, for elves orcs were mirrors of their own dark sides, therefore more hateful. I am not rejecting nor beasts or men theories, but it seems to me greater part of the first orcs were made out of avari.

[HerenIstarion]

Newly Deceased
Posts: 10
Re: Orcish Fear

Returning to fëar. I will need a citation here:

Aragorn holding an orc-knife:

'...it was an orc-weapon' he said, holding it gingerly, and looking with disgust at the carved handle; it had been shaped like a hideous head with squinting eyes and leering

Carved handle, mind you! No breed of mere kevlar were able to do anything like that (I suppose). It is an art, wich, probably, is a proof enough to make it clear that [at least some] orcs have fëar. Of course, that knife belonged to Grishnakh, not ordinary orc but one of the leaders, but never is mentioned, that weapon was made by his own hands. So, if ordinary orcs were able of performing works of art, it's impossible to say that the whole mass and bulk of the population were of the beast origin.

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 117</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Saulotus - Don't take the term &quot;revisionist&quot; as having a negative connotation. The whole point here is to discuss areas where the Sil. could or should be &quot;revised&quot;. I raised the origin of orcs as an issue myself in an early thread in this section of the board. I did so recognizing that JRRT was inclined to change earlier conceptions of elves being corrupted into orcs per Morgoth's Ring. My personal preference, based upon a visceral feeling and not from any &quot;authority&quot;, is that Morgoth corrupted elves. The story &quot;feels&quot; right that way. Nonetheless, if JRRT decided otherwise, well, he created the Mythos.

But I think there's room for doubt on the issue. Another example is the Orcs recognizing Orcrist and Glamdring. Per JRRT, Sauron taught Orcs the Black Speech because the various tribes/races each had their own languages. Would they be literate and educated enough to: (1) read the inscriptions written in Quenya or Sindarin; and (2)recognize the names from events that occurred about 6000 years before? To me, thats stretching the capabilities of &quot;mannish&quot; orcs to maintain accurate oral traditions for that long. Its more likely that the blades were recognized because some of the orcs were there. A first hand account is far less likely to be corrupted than a story that's 200 generations old.

I do like your multi-origin theory because it could fit. That would explain why some masterless orcs wander aimlessly while others could coordinate an attack upon Isildur at the Gladden Fields without guidance from Sauron.

As for round earth, I've always said that I like it, but its hard to make everything fit. Hard, not impossible. The problem is we have to rewrite big chunks of the Sil. without knowing how JRRT would have done it. Even the story of Earendil could be worked out without severely straining the imagination. But its our imagination not JRRT's, so it wouldn't be canon. Its one thing to say JRRT wanted round Arda, that can't be disputed. Its another thing to predict how he would fill in the spaces.

HerenIstarion - The multi origin idea doesn't preclude some portion of the Orcs creating blades to be used by bestial orcs. Amother issue is that we don't know the make up of the party that seized Merry and Pippin. They may have been elite troops, made up entirely of elvish/mannish orcs, all having fear. Though the fear issue makes it hard to work out how some trolls have speech. I don't buy the idea that trolls are corrupted ents. Other than size there's no resemblance.

Your earlier point about the source of the hatred between orcs and elves makes some sense, and matches up with why I viscerally prefer the theory of orcs deriving from elves.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan</A> at: 9/28/00 10:45:47 pm

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 109</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The problem is we have to rewrite big chunks of the Sil.<hr></blockquote>
Why?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> if JRRT decided otherwise, well, he created the Mythos.<hr></blockquote>
A sensible attitude.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But I think there's room for doubt on the issue.<hr></blockquote>
Probably, especially since Tolkien worked on the problem for a long time and eventually came to the conslusions presented, but does it TRULY need an ABSOLUTE answer?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Its another thing to predict how he would fill in the spaces.<hr></blockquote>
Then don't fill them in, that's what imagination is for. The best one can hope for is to recognize what is canon and not (new text vs. old text) and mentally delete that which no longer is valid. If that leaves spaces, then so be it.


</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 124</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Yeah. But I hate to leave spaces in the fabric of something so many find enjoyable. OK, Earendil appeals to the Valar, Varda creates a new planet with Aule's help as a challenge to Morgoth. How does Earendil end up in the sky to fight Ancalagon? BTW just how big is Ancalagon if his fall destroys three mountains? Manyana, dude.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 111</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Ancalagon is a past form of the legend dude. You know this.
I assume you're trying to make a point here.

Let me try one...
Would you include Tevildo: prince of cats? Or Omar? Or Meleth? Or Nan the giant? Or any of the other instances of this type?

Why or why not? (As the case may be).

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Pile o' Bones
Posts: 19
Re: Orcish Fëar

Ancalagon had no need to be so big to destroy 3 mountains - this free fall adds you some weight, I deem ;)

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 112</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Ancalagon is gone.
It don't matter what Ancalagon's size is/was/or could be. He's toast.

The star of Earendil (Aurvendil's Toe legend tie in) is not the planet Venus, but the star Rigel, in the constellation of Orion.

The fact that everyone seems to mistake Earendil as the North Star (Venus) might have something to do with the Elves naming it Earendel/Earendil (considering the mannish mythology tale aspect that Tolkien is striving for), and allows for the Numenorean assumption that a 'father figure' is watching over them based on this presumption of Earendil the star is Earendil the Mariner due to similarity of nomenclature.

I think Tolkien would know the difference between the two, since he expressly states he does.

AFAIK Earendil the Mariner was last positively seen in the War of Wrath, with a POSSIBILITY of leading the way to Numenor in the early Second Age. After that; he's gone. From then on, we have the confusion and mannish mythology taking effect.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 126</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

1. Why is Ancalagon gone? Are you referring to Andreth's Prophecy re: the Final Battle? Even that Prophecy wavers a bit as to details. Ancalagon was still around at least as late as 1951 in JRRT's rewrite of the Tale of Years (First Age). He's also referred to in LoTR.

2. Venus is not the north star. Why is Earendil's Star Rigel?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 129</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Looked it up. Rigel is in the constellation Orion, specifically, its Orion's foot (Orion=Menelmacar). Menelmacar predates Earendil. If I recall, Earendil was the morning star, which is Venus. JRRT may have rearranged some portion of this, but if so, I don't recall.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 114</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Ancalagon is gone. The prophecy of the Old Hope replaces the events you are thinking of. Ancalagon and Turin have no place in the reconstruction. I didn't say Ancalagon didn't exist, I said he's gone (in the respect he's being used for in the prophecy).

I'm aware of what Aurvandel's toe signifies. (Orion's foot.... toe)

My bad on North star. Don't know 'that' much on Astronomy. Did go look.
Ok, North star=Polaris.
Evening star=Venus
Tolkien was fully aware of Aurvandel's toe and it's significance and placement, yet the name of Venus in Elvish is Earendel/Earendil.
Taken from MORGOTH'S RING (star names)
Elemmire---Mercury
Earendil----Venus
Arda-------Earth
Karnil------Mars
Lumbar----Saturn
Alkarinque-Jupiter
Nenar-----Uranus
Luinil------Neptune

Note: Christopher mentions that Tolkien did not create names for the Evening Star or Pluto.
But the Evening Star is equivalent to Venus, and named as a planet in the same text.
This tells us that the name of Earendil the mariner is not associated with Venus, but that the name of the planet (Venus) is Earendel, and the two are very seperate.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 152</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

To get back on topic, a post I just made under Books reminded me of something applicable to Saulotus' first post in the thread. S. points out that if orcs are corrupted elves, then, upon death (and lots of them died) they would return to Mandos (unless they reject the summons which is also a possibility) to think, repent, heal themselves, and ultimately rebuild their Hroar. Howver the body would still be that of an orc, its the only body they would recall. Excellent logic and application of theory to facts!

However, JRRT says that orcs are &quot;Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far...&quot; Letters, #153. The idea that orcs could not be &quot;cured&quot; by a stay in Mandos runs contrary to JRRT's view that they, and indeed any evil entity are not &quot;irredeemable&quot;.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 464</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Maybe an orcish fea would rebuild its hroa in the form it was intended to be in, that of an elf. As part of the repenting and healing that you mentioned. Maybe a fea, being more than just a mind and memory, would know what is was supposed to be, even if the orc it came from had no idea.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 155</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Exactly, assuming that orcs are corrupted elves. However, Saulotus was correct in pointing out that JRRT's last conception of the origin of orcs was that they do not derive from elves. Thus they are men or beasts or both. This is at least inconsistent with implications made in LoTR and the published Sil. It would also not be consistent with his timeline. I feel that this is one of those issues where he would have looked at LoTR and his then unpublished work and either changed his mind or modified the idea to orcs being of various races and origins. Going in a circle here.

Anyway, if orcs could be redeemed in Mandos (and were elves) they could possibly have been reborn as they should have been rather than how they did appear.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 164</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Our discussion here has caused some inspiration and some of the points discussed in this thread have been exported to another board. The topic there is the age or longetivity of orcs. They have touched upon the Gorbag-Shagrat conversations and the recognition by the orcs of Glamdring and Orcrist as evidence of at least non-human longetivity. Since one good turn deserves another, I will import a point they made which we missed. The timeline contained in LoTR's appendix sets the interval between the Battle of Nanduhirion, when Azog fell, and the Battle of Five Armies, when Azog's son Bolg was slain, at 140 years, meaning that Bolg was at least 140 years oldwhen he died in battle (not of old age). Now the line of Elros and the Numenoreans had lives of thrice that of normal men due to special dipensation for deeds done in the First Age. Orcs cannot claim such a dispensation.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 469</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

I read that yesterday. My first trip over and I see a reference to the Downs. Orcs can not claim such dispensation, but since they are currupted Elves...

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 166</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

...and elves are naturally long-lived...

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 131</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Ok, back for a day.
I'll check out a couple of threads, then it's off to Carmel for the week.

No orc can claim such dispensation?

Orcs are elves?

How about mannish orcs after the awakening of Men?

Ever read ATHRABETH?
Ever read Andreths' account of the awakening of Men; and their fall?
Ever read about the legend of Men having far longer lifespans before Eru changed that?

Makes ya think eh?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...and elves are naturally long-lived...<hr></blockquote>

And so were the first Men.



</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 169</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Welcome back. Enjoy yourself in Carmel.

Of course, well aware of Athrabeth and Morgoth's Ring. This thread has highlighted the fact that whatever JRRT's &quot;last&quot; or &quot;latest&quot; intention was with respect to the origin of orcs, LoTR and the Hobbit contain materials which are at least arguably inconsistent with the view that orcs are not corrupted elves. On the other side of the coin, the fea argument appears to support non-elven origins, but not necessarily convincingly so. I lean towards Saul's multi-origin theory at present, but have doubts that I will ever be completely convinced that no orcs descend from elves.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[HerenIstarion]

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 75
Re: Orcish Fëar

hm, here we are again, starting over :) I deem multi -origin theory is right, but with greater part of elves included that it was considered by JRRT himsel :(

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 137</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I deem multi origin theory is right, but with greater part of elves included that it was considered by JRRT himself<hr></blockquote>
See the text for MYTHS TRANSFORMED section IX for the mulit-origin thory with Elves as an orc ingredient (this is an earlier text as it does not have the beast stock); however Tolkien states that many were (at this time of writing; which was later supplanted).

The text related to the last ideas on orcs are tied with QUENDI AND ELDAR, the awakening of men shortly after the great march, and the attacks upon Elves when they awoke of Orcs (who could NOT exist from Elvish stock), and an interesting passage where he ascertains that orcs wewre short lived according to the long lives of the Edain (aka Numenoreans). The last writings on orcs states that neither ELVES nor Dwarves could be reduced to an orkish puppet state. The interesting thing about this essay is the conception that only orcs living DIRECTLY UNDER MORGOTH's POWER AND ATTENTION were reduced to this puppet state.

I think the best answer for the Elvish orc question (and one in accord with the last writings) is taken from ATHRABETH:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien
'Individual Elves might be seduced to a kind of minor 'Melkorism': desiring to be their own masters in Arda, and to have things their own way, leading in extreme cases to rebellion against the tutelage of the Valar; but NOT ONE had ever entered the service or allegiance of Melkor himself, nor ever denied the existence and absolute supremacy of Eru. Some dreadful things of this sort, Finrod guesses, Men must have done, as a<hr></blockquote>

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 106
Re: Orcish Fëar

Still there are too many unclear points, and this discussion is wheeling in a kind of a enchanted circle - what are we to do than of Shagrat's and Gorbag's memory ofgood old days of the siege? Are we assuming that those two were lessened and, what's the word, 'orcicized' Maiar?

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 141</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

First: an actual ANALYSIS of the passage in question is in order.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien THE TWO TOWERS
'There's no grief in that; but think- there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great Siege.'<hr></blockquote>

Now this does NOT state that Gorbag or Shagrat were PRESENT for this event. That has been an ASSUMPTION that has been carried onward through mass misinterpretation for some time now.

How this happened is with this earlier passage (not connected to this statement of Great Siege at all):

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien THE TWO TOWERS
'What d'you say?- if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot, nice and handy, and no big bosses.'
'Ah!' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'<hr></blockquote>

Your post illustrates this mass misconception by your statement of:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Posted by HerenIstarion
'what do we do than to Shagrat and Gorbag recalling &quot;good old days&quot; of a siege?'<hr></blockquote>

The compression of ideas is done by others, not textual.

The siege statement is regarding spies in Mordor, with a different statement concerning the former lives of these two orcs before Sauron came back to Mordor to lord them over.

There is no need or reason to introduce either an non-existant elvish strain OR a really dumb maiar strain here at all.

There is no circular argument by text; only from misreading of such.


</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 113
Re: Orcish Fëar

Ok, Saul, I give up :) I am convinced and I admit you are right

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 223</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Now wait a minute! <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: Orcish Fear

Interesting conversation.

I have to go with orcs having been corrupted Elves. It's the only theory that makes sense. Most likely they were Moriquendi captured by Melkor and transformed through unspeakable torture and powerful spells. Genetics would have to be involved, however, for the orcs to pass on their transformation to their offspring. That Tolkien may have regretted this original idea is irrelevant. That this was his original idea is clear. Orcs were also referred to as goblins, and goblins in folklore have always been associated with elves (small e used to indicate the original conception of elves, from Germanic folklore), which could be either good or bad. This is probably what led to the notion that orcs were really corrupted Elves. The reason why it's the only explanation that works has already been stated in this thread, so I won't go into that. Suffice it to say that Melkor either corrupted Elves to make orcs or he made them from scratch. We already know he did not make them from scratch. But why is the idea of Elves changing so drastically so hard for some of you to accept? Gollum was once a hobbit, and he was transformed almost beyond recognition in a single lifetime. The orcs were probably transformed over generations.

Incidentally, Earendil comes from the Germanic god Earendel, who was the god associated with the Morning or Evening Star, and this could be any bright planet seen at twilight, whether Venus, Mars, or Mercury. Earendel was a god of mariners because stars were essential to navigation.

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[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Orcish Fear

On orcs:
Believe what you will.

If it is the only theory that makes sense; then why did Tolkien reject it himself?
Why did he spend years devising a new origin?

No-one is in disagreement about the original thought concerning orcs, only that their origin evolved, and its the evolution that is erringly disregarded (yourself inclusive).

Again; believe what you will.

</p>

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: Orcish Fear

Are you saying he rejected the theory because it didn't make sense? or did he reject it because he simply didn't like it, as he simply didn't like his earlier conception of the Elves as more folklorish, diminutive beings, and then spend every effort to try to invent a new origin for the orcs, revising backward? And did he succeed? What was his final decision on the matter? because if he made this known then I see no point for this debate.

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[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 309</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Welcome again Black Lieutenant. There's an interesting discussion on how you forgot your name and whether your life was somehow extended in the Books Forum, Magic thread.

JRRT voiced his dissatisfaction with elvish origin of orcs in Letters and in a couple of Essays published in Morgoth's Ring. Concededly, he sounds pretty firm in his position that orcs don't come from elves. One of the things that this and the related thread have highlighted are the inconsistencies that such a change in position would create.

This is also an area that seems to generate strong opinions, right up there with whether Balrogs have wings, whether elves' ears are pointed, and the origins of Bombadil. The theoretical purpose of this forum is to try to hash through issues raised in HoME concerning the evolution of the Sil. This issue is kind of tough. The evidence of JRRT's intent to make a change is there. But the visceral response to such a change appears to be rejection due to individually held views rather than fact.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 229</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by The Black Lieutennant
&quot;What was his final decision on the matter?&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Do you really want to hear this?

Orcs are originally descended from beasts. They later were bred with men.
There are Maia orcs who are the leaders of orc armies and figures of note.
Orcs are not Elves.
The orcs that the Elves met before the arrival of Orome were the beast and Maia breeds/versions.
After the awakening of Men very shortly afterward, the interbreeding of Beast and Man began.

He still holds that orcs need to be controlled by strength of will, but maintains the idea that they could funtion without it. He refers to a passage in LOTR where Sauron upon discovering the Ring at Mt. Doom concentrates all of his thought there, and that his armies were steerless and befert of will. However he maintains that only a small portion of the orcs were held in this thrall in Beleriand, as it required vast amounts of expenditures of will. This is tied to the concept that the armies of Sauron in the Third Age were forgotten after Frodo and the Ring declared itself/themselves and as to why the Ring was able to get so far into Mordor due to the vast amounts of concentration needed for his armies.

He maintains that it was Sauron, not Melkor who truly devised the orcs; but acknowledges that the idea originated from Melkor.

This is the final view held. He expands upon the will/thralldom aspect a little more, but this is the answer you requested.

Again; believe what you will.

</p>

[Sharkû]

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Re: Orcish Fear

Two quick little points, Black Lieutenant:
1) Eärendel was neither a deity nor a god. He was a mythological figure of Anglo-Saxon folklore, no less, no more. The God of Mariners was always Njördr.
2) Tolkien got the idea for Orcs from Béowulf, where they are mentioned but not elaborated. Goblins did not really have an immediate relation to the elves of Norse-Teutonic myth; so this connection is flawed somehow.

Don't get me wrong - this was just to prevent minor mistakes infiltrating this discussion (which I normally only watch).

<h6> Be still, O wand'rer! / Dost thou not hear the sad song of night? / How the wind does beckon thee to rest for a while / and to lend him thine ear? / What woeful tale does it tell tonight? / What tragedy of old? </h6></p>

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: Orcish Fear

Do not bandy words in your insolence with the Mouth of Sauron! Just kidding.

God or not (I make no distinction between gods and other mythological beings) my point was that Tolkien intended there to be an association between Earendil the Mariner and Earendil the star, or maybe mythological identification is a better term. Was anyone disputing this? I don't remember now, but I thought so at the time.

The idea that orcs evolved from beasts sounds great. What discrepancies arise from this revision?

The question is not whether or not goblins and elves were related in Norse-Teutonic myth, but whether or not they were related in British folklore. Tolkien's earlier conceptions of elves and goblins were more folklorish than his later conceptions, which were more influenced by the epics than by folklore.


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[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 231</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

A third point of contention:

There is also an essay [QUENDI AND ELDAR] where Tolkien examines the stem Ruku-, from where the derivatives; Orch, yrch, rauku, uruk (also urka 'horrible'; Horrible hordes anyone?) spring .
Presumably olog has in its history this same stem as its base as it is awfully close to the Sindarin translation).

Before the Elves knew differently, they called any creature of Darkness or prowling creature by the term (Common Eldarin = rauko) (Quenya = urko) (Sindarin = urug) uruk; including orcs, trolls, balrogs (see Valarauko), and whathaveyou). As they learned to differentiate between these beasts, they applied a more sophisticated definition (and thus the derivatives).

For what it's worth: uruk is also a direct Adunaic word of the same meaning (based mostly upon Avarin and CE), not a Black Speech invention.

</p>[i]

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 312</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Urkahoth? Black speech dates to the Second Age anyway doesn't it?

Not sure I understand why this is a &quot;third point of contention&quot;. Are you suggesting bestial origins for anything whose elvish name derives from the Ruku? Probably not. The Valaraukar clearly weren't animals. I have to assume that I lost the &quot;thread&quot; (yuck, yuck) of this discussion.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 233</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

A further clarification on orc appearances at the time of the Elves awakening.
This is part of an essay that helps to solve that problem by an examination of the root stem and its derivatives.

Not beastial in the sense that you mean it, only that the stem has its meaning in Demon. An unknown evil form. The application to all monsters of Morgoth (until the Elves learned better).

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 183
Re: Orcish Fear

2) Tolkien got the idea for Orcs from Béowulf, where they are mentioned but not elaborated. Goblins did not really have an immediate relation to the elves of Norse-Teutonic myth; so this connection is flawed somehow

I don't remember where did I pick it up, still an idea is twisting in my subconscious that the word ork meant &quot;whale&quot; in old english


Edited by: HerenIstarion (http://69.51.5.41/member.php?u=66) at: 11/7/00 4:45:12 pm

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: Orcish Fear

Upon reading that post, the word &quot;orcus&quot; sprang to mind. I can't find it in the dictionary, but for some reason I seem to remember some connexion between &quot;orcus&quot; and whales.

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[burrahobbit]

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Re: Orcish Fear

A killer whale is Orcinus orca. There is a preface in The Hobbit (at least there is in mine) that says &quot;Orc is not an English word ... Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not conected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.&quot;

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Sharkû]

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Re: Orcish Fear

T.A. Shippey, The Road to Middle-Earth (p. 60):
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;'Orcs' go back to orcnéas, the 'demon-corpses' of the Beowulf-poet, and to another Old English word orcthyrs, 'orc-giant'.<hr></blockquote>

And now, J.R.R. Tolkien, in his letter to Naomi Mitchison, in 1954 (see Letters p.177f.):
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Orcs (the word as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old Englishorc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) [...]<hr></blockquote>

<h6> Be still, O wand'rer! / Dost thou not hear the sad song of night? / How the wind does beckon thee to rest for a while / and to lend him thine ear? / What woeful tale does it tell tonight? / What tragedy of old? </h6></p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 236</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

Correct; and why Tolkien undertook the sub-creative effort to place it in context with the term Demon in the essay as stated above, and the ties to other forms of words with the same general meaning.

One must remember that LOTR and HOBBIT are techincally 'translations'.
See Appendix F (II) and HOBBIT Prologue.
This is why orc/orcs is used (as it also has a phonetic similarity to orch/yrch) as it also means Demon.

The truly significant additional fact gleaned from the essay is that at one time, Elves called ANY monster of Darkness; 'Demon' (as stated above).

For those questioning the meaning of this; Tolkien asserts that orcs are bred from men and beasts. Men awoke after Elves (very shortly afterward that is). As stated; this is an additional point to clarify the orc origins.

Even clearer; the 'orcs' that the Elves encountered were Rauku (Q. Uruku) forms, not 'orcs' as known in later histories. Merely demons of Darkness that the Elves did not know of. Only later, were classifications given.

All this effort to help explain orcs descending from Men, not elves. (Also asseted in QUENDI AND ELDAR from where this is taken and complimentary/adjutant papers. See MYTHS TRANSFORMED; Orcs).

But....

For those who truly believe that they are descended from Elves; that is your interpretation and personal belief. You are welcome to it.

</p>

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: Orcish Fear

No, you have enlightened me. I like this latter idea of Tolkien's better. And your explanation of how the Elves could have encountered orcs before Man awoke seems satisfactory enough. But then one must say that orcs were made in mockery of men rather than in mockery of Elves.

What about trolls? Were they also descended from beasts? And the later trolls, who were smarter, were they interbred with men, or were they really Maiar?

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[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 239</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by the Black Lieutenant
But then one must say that orcs were made in mockery of men rather than in mockery of Elves.<hr></blockquote>
Technically orcs arose in the mind of Melkor in the original vision of the theme before creation.

Concerning Orcs:
The Elves believed they were made in mockery of them.
How much this plays upon their vanity is the question.
ATHRABETH examines the disimiliar views of the Children a little more in depth.

The orcs were actually made in mockery of the CHILDREN of Eru, and as defilements of Eru's thoughts.

This view on orcs began taking shape in writings around 1959, and isn't as latter as is thought.
The refinements are however later thoughts concerning control of orcs, Maiar forms of orcs, and the ultimate origin of orcs as descending from Beasts due to Melkor's inability to create beings having self-will, but needing the ability to reproduce. The designs of orcs were actually left to Sauron to complete.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by The Black Lieutenant
What about trolls? Were they also descended from beasts? And the later trolls, who were smarter, were they interbred with men, or were they really Maiar?<hr></blockquote>

Concerning Trolls:

The Trolls were made in mockery of The Children of Yavanna (who are present in the themes at the beginning; see ANAXARTARON ONYALIE ANAXARTAMEL [Of the Ents and Eagles/ aka Of Aule and Yavanna]).

A side note to this: This may also be the germ of the origin of the winged steeds of the Nazgul [stated by Tolkien as most assuredly NOT Pterodactyls] (as mockeries of the Eagles?).

Above I mentioned Melkor's inability to create beings of self-will. There is an important distinction here; Melkor COULD create beings (Tolkien uses the creation of Dwarves by Aule as comparison in the essay) but they would not have 'free-will' (i.e. puppets). From this discussion; the original creation of Trolls (from Stone) is understood more clearly. Tolkien asserts that these 'puppets' could after time away from direct control, develop a limited form of 'self-will'. Sauron, in breeding Trolls with Men, creates a more dependable force of slaves.

QUENDI AND ELDAR also expands upon the round world at creation idea that was introduced in 1945 with THE DROWNING OF ANADUNE (pre-LOTR). ANOTHER point of major contention among SILMARILLION readers, who feel that the elderly flat world concept should be retained. See also the aforementioned OF THE ENTS AND EAGLES rejected passages by Christopher concerning the Sun at the beginning, among many other essays involving this concept.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus</A> at: 11/9/00 12:44:57 am

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Another point of contention among SILMARILLION readers... <hr></blockquote>

You talkin' about me?

Actually, I like the round earth conception, but wonder if the reason JRRT never got around to finishing Sil. was due to his incessant conceptual tinkering. As a possible sequel to Tales from Eressea, I may weave in a round earth discussion (Saul, you've never commented on the first Tale, I thought you might like it).

I need to reread Morgoth's Ring and Peoples of Middle Earth (only read the latter once) but I'm committed to reading LoTR again. Hard to fit everything in right now. I've grown to like JRRT's later conception of the origin of orcs, though it still somewhat grates on my visceral impression of elves becoming orcs (emphasizes the Marring of Arda more, in my opinion) as well as my preconceptions based on the references from LoTR cited above.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Orcish Fear

One last point concerning Orcs from Elves is probably apropos:

In the original concept of Orcs and Goblins; they were not the same.
In writing HOBBIT; Tolkien drew upon his creation (proto-SILMARILLION) as the base for the story background, and why Gondolin, Elrond etc. were introduced.

This is reflected in some statements from the Great Goblin regarding the identity and recognition of Orcrist and Glamdring. At this time; Goblins were considered to be Twisted forms of Elves, and Orcs as superior breeds of Goblins (crossed with Men).

This is also why Orcs and Hobgoblins appear in HOBBIT as seperate entities.
Hobgoblins are presumably at this time some mixture of Goblin and Orc.

When in writing LOTR, Tolkien decided to combine the two seperate groups into one classification, thus the additional preface commentary seen in HOBBIT, with the LOTR re-definition of Hobgoblin as orc-men.

However; the situation created with the Great Goblin's comments went un-revised, along with the references to Orcs and Hobgoblins, creating a mixed up family tree.

Only later, as presented above, did he re-address the problem.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus</A> at: 11/8/00 11:09:32 pm

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 242</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by Mithadan
You talkin' about me?<hr></blockquote>
Is this a deNiro gag?
I wasn't even thinking in terms of specific people...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by Mithadan
(Saul, you've never commented on the first Tale, I thought you might like it).<hr></blockquote>
Pardon? What Tale?
I only check out a couple of sections on this site anymore, and not all messages in those I do check (sometimes why there are late replies), so...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by Mithadan
Peoples of Middle Earth (only read the latter once) but I'm committed to reading LoTR again.<hr></blockquote>
&quot;It must make haste, haste!&quot;

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 245</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by Mithadan
(Saul, you've never commented on the first Tale, I thought you might like it).<hr></blockquote>
Made me go look for it did ya?
Nasty cruel Hobbit.

Interesting.
Liked the Sam/Frodo ending.
Elrond and Celebrian were a nice touch.
Still sticking with the Aelfwine thing eh? <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 193
Re: Orcish Fëar


One must remember that LOTR and HOBBIT are techincally 'translations'.
See Appendix F (II) and HOBBIT Prologue. This is why orc/orcs is used (as it also has a phonetic similarity to orch/yrch) as it also means Demon.

Good point indeed. That's why translating JRRT into Georgian I used kaji instead of goblin, but preserved orc; as well as troll is replaced with devi and so on. Still, that reminds me that I am in great need of book on nomenclature, and Shippey's works too.

Anyone knowing the link to those in a form of e-text, or a site where those can be ordered, please post ir here. thx

[Saulotus]

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Posts: 251</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by HerenIstarion
or a site where those can be ordered, please post ti here.<hr></blockquote>

Well I won't publish one here (as I'd lose one of my really good and secret sources) <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

But if you like I'll email it.
With the condition that you not share it. <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=":D">

Where are you located; generally speaking?
(please, don't say in a chair).

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 196
Re: Orcish Fear


I make no distinction between gods and other mythological

Why? :)

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: Orcish Fear

Because there is speculation that I believe has merit, that in the survival of pagan traditions under Christianity the line between gods and other mythological beings became blurred. The heros of the Irish mythological cycle, for example, are considered to be gods by many scholars. Also, faerie beings are thought to be diminished god-forms (as is suggested in Kipling's &quot;Puck of Pook's Hill,&quot; Robert Graves' &quot;The White Goddess&quot; and other sources). Robin Goodfellow is a prime example of this, because he was accused of being the God of Witches in medieval times. Robert Graves also makes a convincing argument that Robin Hood's legend comes from both an actual person and a faerie being/god. Herne the Hunter and Santa Claus both have been suggested as being gods that degenerated over time into mere folklorish faerie beings. An example of the opposite effect is Heracles who was a hero who later became a god. Weland the Smith is another example, for in some books he is called a figure of folklore, and in others he is called a god, Volund, and identified with Vulcan. Herodias was linked with Diana and Hecate in medieval witchlore. Morgana of the Arthurian Cycle is really the Morrigan, the Irish raven-goddess of battle. Seth of the Bible has been identified with the Egyptian god Set. Etc, etc.

Most people have this idea from classical paganism that paganism was somehow an organized religion. But there was no canon and no uniformity of belief even in classical times. There was also much sycretism and the heathens, the people of the heath, did not make the distinctions that many of us do today. In many Christian countries, even now, the common folk treat saints as though they are gods, and in religions like Santeria they actually are gods. Only learned folk make meaningless distinctions, because they are fond of distinctions, as they are of fitting each little thing into its own neat little box.

Among modern pagans today almost anything can be a god if considered as such, even a tree, because the Godforce inhabits all things. Joseph Campbell's &quot;The Masks of God&quot; is a good study of the meaning of gods and their relationship to humans and to the rest of nature. But even if Earendel was not commonly considered to be a god, this does not invalidate my claim about Earendil. The identification between stars and mariners is too obvious to be a coincidence. I believe Tolkien made this identification and hence Earendil is both a star and a mariner in his mythology.

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I am the Lieutenant of <a href=http://pub28.ezboard.com/blugburz>Lugburz</a>, a member of the <a href=http://www.tolkienboards.cjb.net/>Tolkien EZBoard Network</a>. I am also the High Priest of <a href=http://www.crosswinds.net/~darkbanecircle/>Darkbane Circle</a>, an online coven.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000277>The Black Lieutenant</A> at: 11/10/00 1:54:02 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 199
gods and heroes


I see the general opinion, and agree (in general), still why begin the line with gods and not otherwise - are you sure that the gods were diminished into mere folklore personnages, and not the other way round?

that would seem to be truth almost upside down

JRRT, On Fairy-stories

I mean, not that God of witches is dwindled into Robin Goodfellow, and not that God is derived from above named Robin, but the process begins on the both ends of the line. There may have been some God of Witches, and there may have been someone Robin, and they are boiled toghether in the Pot Of Fairy Story (quote from JRRT again), coming out boiled into one lump of mythology :)

That concerns mainly creatures of 'human origin', as gods may be, still, there are lot of them wich are not - all of those dragons, monsters etc. why not make distinction between those?


Edited by: HerenIstarion (http://69.51.5.41/member.php?u=66) at: 11/11/00 12:41:30 am

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: gods and heroes

Yes, some of them evolved from the bottom up. And some of them became blended together through identification (some might say confusion) in the popular mind. Santa Claus is most likely an example of this, since one of his origins is said to be an actual person, Saint Nicholas. But Saint Nicholas did not ride through the sky in a sleigh pulled by reindeer, nor did he have elves in his employ.

Pot of Fairy Story . . . I like that. It's a bubbling brew in the cauldron of imagination.

To answer your other question, by mythological figures I meant, for the most part, the anthropomorphic ones. (I say for the most part because there is the Native American figure of folklore, Coyote, an example of the Trickser archetype and therefore also a god). Mythological creatures, such as trolls and dragons, I do not refer to as gods, though they are formed of the same stuff. This is not to say they can't be gods. But they are generally not named, and a god must have a name. Certain named individuals, like the dwarf Alberich, can be considered gods though. Alberich means &quot;Elf Kingdom&quot; I believe, and the French version of his name, Auberon, gives us Oberon, who is the King of Faerie, and therefore a god.

It's all God . . .



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I am the Lieutenant of <a href=http://pub28.ezboard.com/blugburz>Lugburz</a>, a member of the <a href=http://www.tolkienboards.cjb.net/>Tolkien EZBoard Network</a>. I am also the High Priest of <a href=http://www.crosswinds.net/~darkbanecircle/>Darkbane Circle</a>, an online coven.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000277>The Black Lieutenant</A> at: 11/11/00 4:35:20 am

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 201
godlings

Oberon, who is the King of Faerie, and therefore a god

Certainly not. :)

There is a distinction between God that made and gods that are made. All abovenamed (Santa Claus, Oberon etc) are [mere?] products of human imagination (even if the prototypes really existed), some kind of subcreative act, and may be considered as gods at all only if they are beleived on a degree when one who created (in a sense) them (human) starts to worship them. As far as I know Oberon may have been feared, or admired, but never have been worshipped. So I must assume he is a King of Faerie (If it's really him to be called so), and therefore not the God. As for Santa, one can call him a mess, a joke, a nursary-tale hero, but not a god certainly.

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: godlings

Well, yes, if you put it that way, that a god must be worshipped, I can see your point. But many Witches do worship Oberon as a god, and consider Santa Claus another variant of the Holly King, who is an archetypal god of Winter amongst Witches today.

God which creates, the Creator, the Source, the Absolute, is beyond human ability to conceive. Any concept of God is both created by the human imagination and yet is also a mask of the Absolute, which cannot be conceived. Thus Yahweh/Jehovah, Allah, and any other God which has attributes that we humans ascribe to them is not the Absolute, but rather a god-form, and therefore equal to all other god-forms, and just as much products of the human imagination as you say.

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[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 202
Re: godlings

But moving in that direction makes it unnecessary for any creature to obtain mithologycal origins - we may count among gods some living men - i.e. some rock stars, worshipped by their fans, or soap opera heroes etc


Any concept of God is both created by the human imagination and yet is also a mask of the Absolute, which cannot be conceived

As for that, you can say so about any thing on earth and beyond it, things that are in a primary world, or are only might-have-beens, or visions of any persons imagination. A stone on a road is merely a stone, a mineral with some concrete characteristics, still one who saw it with his own eyes can tell about it to another one miles away from a place where the stone was first spotted. One naming stone with the word stone takes part in creation of all stones by human imagination, giving all of the different stones one mask of stone as stone.

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 324</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: godlings

Saulotus: Sorry I didn't respond to your query. I've been tremendously occupied during the past week (maybe someday I can say with what but I can't right now). Anyway, glad you were intrigued by Tales. As for Aelfwine, JRRT liked the concept and so did I. While Aelfwine fell out of JRRT's works, at least partially, it appears he was not abandoned, as you know. He pops up now and again even in JRRT's post-LoTR work and even appears in his late work (see HoME 12).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Black Lieutenant]

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Re: godlings

Yes, of course you can say that about anything in the universe. As I said, it's all God. As Kant put it, we live in the phenomenal world, and it is only phenomena that we can ever hope to understand; i.e., things as they appear. But behind the phenomenal world is the numenal world, the Absolute. It is beyond comprehension, or else it would not be numenal, but phenomenal. This is the world of things as they are.

I hear and behold God in every object, yet understand God not in the least (Walt Whitman)

And humans have become gods. Augustus, Claudius, Jesus, Rastafari, etc. These were/are but men, yet the god-form itself is equal to any other god-form. If a tree can become a god, why not a man? You could think of it this way: the archetypes, which belong to the numenal world, or at least are the nexus wherein the numenal and phenomenal world intersect, take on the likenesses of these forms within the human imagination, just as the Ainur took on anthropomorphic likenesses and became the Valar.

In animistic faiths, the whole phenomenal world is considered to be alive, imbued with Spirit, or spirits (it matters little, as singular and plural designations are meaningless in the numenal world). Animists understand that beyond the phenomenal world there exists a numenal world (although not in the way Kant understood it) which is Spirit.

But the numenal world can never be known by us, for we ourselves are phenomena. If we entered the numenal world, we would no longer be what we are. Yet as I said the numenal interfaces with the phenomenal world, and all religions deal with some aspect of that connexion.

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Attention RPG fanatics! Come <a href=http://pub28.ezboard.com/flugburzfrm5.showMessageRange?topicID=15.topic&start=83&stop=83>play my game!</a></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000277>The Black Lieutenant</A> at: 11/12/00 2:46:43 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 203
Sixth proof of God's existence

If I am allowed to put it in in a simpler way, a Christian (not a philosopher, but an ordinary man) can make a distinction otherwise: God, in whom he believes, and all of them idols, or false gods, including abovenamed Augustus and Claudius and all the rest of the best, to whom I was implying naming rock stars and soap opera heroes, whom you may consider idols as well

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1293
Re: Orcish Fëar

Leaving aside the stray topics inside this thread, I would like to summarize the general ideas of this one. So, here we go:

1. Orcs have different origins, including beasts, men and elves. Great orcish leaders (Boldog) were orcish hroa inhabited by corrupted Maiar.
2. Those of beast origin need direct control of evil mind (i.e. Morgoth or Sauron) to act with some purpose, otherwise they “stray aimlessly”.
3. The elvish and mannish orcs are capable of independent action in those “good old days”, when Sauron is out of the stage.
4. The elvish and mannish orcs definitely have fear.
5. The elven-orcish fëa has a right of elvish one to go to Mandos, repent and rebuild its hroa, yet it is not certain what would be it’s physical appearance – that of an orc, for hroa is rebuild out of fëa’s memories of it, or, repenting, it acquires ability to rebuild for it proper purely elven hroa. On the other side, is has the right to refuse the summons and remain in Hither Lands as houseless ghost or wraith.
6. Mannish fëa goes out of the confines of the world
7. Orcs are capable to be interbred with men even in the third age, thus acts Saruman, as well as Sauron, producing new type of “man-orc”
8. Beast-orcs must be considered innocent in a way, for they are just tormented and perverted animals, Kevlar with no free will
9. Elven and Mannish orcs posses free will, as all the Children of Eru, however suppressed by horror of Dark Lord, therefore they are not irredeemable and must be considered sinners, even those natural born ones, thus being distinguished from beast-orcs. Elvish and Mannish orcs know the Good from the Evil and appreciate the good (see Shagrat and Gorbag converse, were “elvish trick” of leaving companions is evaluated to be bad, and generally ascribed to the other side)
10. All the Orcs hate the Dark Lord for what was done to them, but the hatred is suppressed by horror, and they hate peoples of free and good will still more.
11. Elven-Orcs specially dislike the elves proper, and receive the same feeling from the other side.
12. Elven-orcs have usual elven longivety, therefore , for instance, some of themcan recall and recognize items of several thousand years of age (Orcrist and Glamdring recognized by oercs in “The Hobbit”)

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1485
Re: Orcish Fëar

to Bob Wehadababyitsaboy, jallanite, Aiwendil, or any who may have concern

Since this topic has it's main concern with orcs, I will ask a question answer to which I once knew, but I've forgotten it. In First Age orcs had special name for the Noldor (similar as they called Gondorians Tarks in Third). I stumbled upon it somewhere in HoME series, but I can't remember where. Maybe, if you remember, to post it here would be very kind of you, for I (oh, shame on me ;)) even asked this as a question in trivia, and than, as nobody answered for several weeks, totally forgot the answer myself :confused:


...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[jallanite]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator
Posts: 61</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

I do not remember the word, HereIstarion.

But, to your previous post, I have two points to add on Orkish fëar, both from Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10), &quot;Myths Transformed&quot;, VIII, Orcs. Both are on the fate of Orks after death.

On the Úmaiar Orks:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and peilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-form (even in demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?<hr></blockquote>

On the Elven Orks:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!)*** and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.<hr></blockquote>Apparently no refusing of the summons?

</p>

[Bob Wehadababyitsaboy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 10</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In first age orcs had special name for the Noldor (similar as they called Gondorians Tarks in third). I stumbled upon it somewhere in HoME series, but I can't remember where.<hr></blockquote>

A. Golug.

Try looking elsewhere, instead of in HoME and you'll find it.

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1491
Re: Orcish Fëar

To jallanite:

Apparently not, yet keeping them in Mandos till the End nevertheless means not those fëar can not repent, does it?

To Bob Wehadababyitsaboy:

Thank you :)

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1496
Re: Orcish Fear

Thus it was that Túrin and Orleg were discovered, for three scouts stumbled upon them as they lay hid; and though they slew two the third escaped, crying as he ran Golug! Golug! Now that was a name which they had for the Noldor
Unfinished Tales, Turin Among the Otlaws


Bob, thank you again

* bows


As you were the only one to know the word, I invite you to proceed with the quizz thread were the qustion was asked History of ME Trivia Thread #1

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[Child of the 7th Age]

I am pulling this up because of a discussion in the Books thread.

[bombur]

Now that I became aware of this thread I simply must reply to black lieutannants and others thoughts of difference between gods and spirits and cultural heroes.


Tolkien used also Finnish legends as source materiale and in them the definition between theese is totally fluid. Tapio was the forest to the degree that moss in the treebark is his eyebrows, he is ”haltija”, an elf. And I assure you, as important source of sustenance, men were very polite to forest. As Tapio was an elf, so are the little people living in the trees of the forest. Different forms of politenes were given to them though alone single one of them is no more powerful then the village wiseman, usually less so. Ukko (old man) lived in the clouds and thunder and lightning were his crossbowbolts, he was ”haltija”, an elf. The little bearded fellows who live in the ovens of houses and help the people who are friendly to them and pester those who are not, are ”haltija's”, eleves as well. So was the lazy man Pekko who lived in the moles holes in the fields and made the beer good. Also those little people who lived in saunas, treestumps, barns, hills, swamp ponds, rocks etc. etc are eleves of various kinds. One can become the greatest musician in the world if one manages to spot a rapids elf and convinces him to teach oneself. This is dangerous though as rapids eleves are private kind of eleves and may drown trespassers. In the finnish myth the line between a spirit and godbeing has not been blurred. On the contrary. There never was line to begin with. It is not animism. Not everything has an elf living in it. A farmhouse would be very very lucky to get an elf to live in every building. The only thing you can bet on is that an elf will take residence in the most prominent tree of the house yard. There was a creator goddess, but she was rather impersonal, primeal, bare and/or element-like. She was not worshipped. She had I believe passed on and left her children in charge way before the times of the ancient finns, after all you cannot expect wind to stick around for a long time. Like some men are mighty and some are not, so was it with the eleven beings. Some eleves were more powerfull and could well be called gods and could basically be pleaded for good harvest or weather etc. Some are less powerfull and still it is wise to be friends with them as well. They well can help or hinder you.

The god-faerie thinking comes from different variations of infusing of two basic early faiths. Indo-Europeans to my knowledge brought storm-god (Ukko-Zeus-Jupiter-Belenos-Thor/Odin-Wotan) based panthenon from asian steppes to ”Proto-European” people in Europe who had previously worshipped landgoddess and various spirits. This was at the point of some thousands of years before christ. At least the Finns also have influences from Uralian shamanism. Perhaps theese influences are reason why the line between god and spirit and man has REMAINED blurred in Finnish myth. I think the line between god and spirit may ORIGINALLY have been more or less fluid in other cultures as well. In the case of Tolkien it is in many instances difficult to tell where the Valar ends and maiar begins. Moreso the distinction of who is more powerful of individuals from valar/maiar/kelvar-olvar-mortal, seems impossible to draw strictly by ”status”. The line becomes even harder to draw since at least maiar and mortal can interbreed. Finnish myth is likewise crawling with ”demigods”. So to say. Or people with eleven blood. Whichever. Väinämöinen of cource had both the blood of the creator goddes and men. The likes of us mortals have only various slight degrees of the blood of lesser eleves in our veins.

There is no contemporary literary of theese things since the ancient Finnish culture was illiterary one, but some things persist and are studied in oral tradition. For example our santa claus is still called yule-goat though he looks a bit like st. Nicholas. He brings presents (personally) but is scary figure to a degree. He is bribed with a drink to moisten his

[bombur]

(Computer problems it seems)

...throat dried by the weariness of travel. Children must play with him or sing to him. He might get angry as he is old and bit cranky, but basically he is forgiving and kind deep down. His elves look just like the barn-eleves of ancient finns. They are small, bearded and old. They wear grey coats and red hoodlike caps and cannot usually be seen. This image has somewhat altered when the idea of santas eleves spread from Finland to other contries smilies/smile.gif . Most finnish people do not know why their christmas decorations include little goats made of starw. I personally still feel uneasy, unless the christmas dinner is left on the table overnight as the custom is. Only some time ago I learned that this must be done so that the house eleves can come and feast in the night. The traditional Finnish santa claus is synthesis of the house eleves who had to be appeased so that they’d give their gift of help in the good housekeeping and of the make-believe eleves played by (elderly?) men who toured house to house on the second yuleday to play with children around a big straw goat. Lately it has taken some external influences, so it is more closely related to coca cola then st. nicholas. Traditions change, but traces of magic remain in the deeper woods of Europe. After all, as long as we think it brings good luck to toss one good steam when leaving sauna in the christmass eve, the sauna eleves get their yule sauna no matter if the real reason could not be said to the priests for centuries. Many foundation stones of new buildings still have coin in them, even though almost none remember why. There is no fundamental difference between those haltijat who had to flee and those who were small and minor enough to hide. After all when leaving this mortal land after the coming of the son of Mary to depose him, Väinämöinen, the old demigod-singer-wiseman left song behind in the forests for us. And after all he did make us a promise: "Let time pass : A day goes, another comes : Again I’ll be needed : looked after, longed for : To bring forth new sampo: To make a new song : To haul a new moon : To let a new day : When there is no moon, no sun : No joy without price.”


Janne Harju

[HerenIstarion]

Welcome to the Downs Janne smilies/smile.gif

I can not deny that all the superstitious habits practised by so-called "civilised" man are left overs of what once was a belief (in a sense of worship) But is't arguable would the return to such practice (fully realising you're leaving food for elves, not doing thus in honor of tradition) be vary much reasonable. Some kind of step back, methinks

[bombur]

Step back from what? You believe in god?

I can offer the same amount of proof to validate either.

You see, what I am trying to say is that here people have stopped believing in eleves only in the 20th century, or majority of the urban people in the previous two, degree by degree.

I am totally unmoved by religion... not even opposing it like many atheists seem to.

I am not so sure that eleves (god) do not exist.

Strange observation though... many things the eleves used to want us to do have some practical, way of life - purpose.

If the barn elf is satisfied, it'll protect stored wheat from rot. And it wants things like keeping it's dwelling clean and neat. Funny.

Before building one should sleep a night out and let the ground elevs say if they do not want building in that place... not a far cry from feng shui.

Yes, I leave food out on the table at days of celebration. It is also nice bonus to get to wake up every now and then and nibble a bit.

And can you claim to KNOW that the spirit world HAS fully separated from ours? Or that eleves have left theese forests, have you been in them?

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Anyways, my point was that in some myth man/spirit/god difference is a line drawn to water if even that moreso then asserting that there is still drips of magic left in the finnish forests.

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Janne Harju

[Tirned Tinnu]

*Tinnu puts her hands into the attitiude of prayer*
Black Lieutenant, you said:
Incidentally, Earendil comes from the Germanic god Earendel, who was the god associated with the Morning or Evening Star, and this could be any bright planet seen at twilight, whether Venus, Mars, or Mercury. Earendel was a god of mariners because stars were essential to navigation.
I beg you! Please make another thread with more information on the Germanic Gods? Or PM me with a source. I am keen to learn more of the Tribes' Gods, as they have not been studied/mentioned here in my local schooling.

NOW. All this Orcish titter-tatter makes my ears ring! I long ago decided that while there were more Elves on MI that the Orcs would have been twisted Elves.
When the Men took over, and there were few Elves to be found, it would make more sense to use Men, then, wouldn't it?!
*Shaking her head*
If Tolkien said it in an interview, or in a letter, I will adhere to it. Simple as that. The story changed, that's all. Being a writer is going to be a tough thing, if people are going to rip and tear at your former copies!
I should burn mine, so as not to have all this quibbling.
However, the noise made in here had brought up several points about other things that I desire to learn about.
*Puts in her earplugs*
Tittir-tatter on, I say, therefore. I'll just enjoy the fire. Yell if you stumble on something else! (Or pull out one of my earplugs.) smilies/biggrin.gif

[HerenIstarion]

Tirned Tinnu

Black Liuetenant is rare guest at BD lately. Try looking for him by following link in his sig (lugburz)

BTW, Vast amounts of knowledge concerning Nordic mythologies are stored in Sharku's mind

bombur

who said all of them things do not exist? smilies/rolleyes.gif "not believing" was used in a sense "not worshipping"

[bombur]

Ahhh. About not worshipping. This was the other thing apart from the integral non-definability of Finnish myth man-spirit-god things I was trying to communicate... I do not think any of the above were ever "worshipped."

For example Tapio was kind of "god of the forest" to Finns, well or king of the forest more accurately. (Exept that he was an elf = kind of spirit of the forest... meaning that he was allpowerful within THE forest and three hundred kilometers to the east there was no Tapio, but there was Hiisi, who was kind of god of THE forest...) Men INTERACTED with theese eleves. They did not have churches or temples. Sacrifices of food were evidently given only to ancestors. Tapio demanded certain attitudes towards the forest, certain ways to be used in killing a bear, etc, not "worship."

Perhaps a good example of what I mean is the fact that the word prayer came to Finnish language as a lent word from Russian along with the first priests. Concept of prayer was unknown before christianity.

For example the thing with leaving the food on table on the yule is just that. It is not sacrifice. The food will be eaten along the night and in the next morning. We make lots of food in the christmas. On the 25 december no one needs to bother working in kitchen.

The rationale "religionwise" is that the food must be set out so that eleves MAY take their share.


Janne Harju

[bombur]

Actually, now that it occurred to me, there is more worship in the custom we have here in finland, to take candles to the graves of our relatives on the christmas eve.

Janne Harju